Louis,

Great post.

House Republican leader John Boehner said on Tuesday that President Obama should begin clearing house by replacing Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner and White House economic adviser Larry Summers.

"It's time to put grown-ups in charge. It's time for people willing to accept responsibility," Boehner told a civic group in Cleveland. If this was not so ludicrous I would cry. Is the Republican Party now going to also take responsibility for the 2 unfunded wars, the unfunded prescription program, 2 unfunded tax cuts where over 50% went to the richest 2%? An agenda that got us into this mess in the first place. I think not.

Boehner's call for a "fresh start" on the economy comes 10 weeks before November 2 elections expected to see Republicans slash Democrats' big majorities in the House and Senate, largely because of the near double-digit jobless rate. Mr. Boehner obviously does not know what a fresh start means. As it stands now, the republican party’s agenda is basically identical to GW Bush’s except it is more harmful to the Middle Class. How is that a fresh start? More voodoo and trickle down economics is not a fresh start, more of the same old failed economics

If Republicans take the House, Boehner is in line to become its speaker, which would make him the chamber's presiding officer and in charge of setting its agenda and the third in line if something happened to our President and Vice President. That is scary enough.

Boehner has been a leading critic of Obama's programs, including his overhaul of the U.S. healthcare system, reform of the rules governing the financial industry, and what Republicans' denounce as his failed $812 billion economic stimulus plan designed to create jobs and boost investment.

Listening to Boehner actually having the hubris to claim that the Republican "grown ups" should be in charge. Again, who had the keys to the car that drove off this cliff?

"Failed" stimulus? Despite the lagging (you do know what "lagging" means don't you, John?) indicator of employment, even Republican governors have been forced to admit that the stimulus has worked. They accepted the money and took photo ops at all the ribbon ceremonies. Hypocrites.

With all due respect to the ambitious would-be Speaker of the House, as Campaign for America's Future puts it, Boehner needs more than a fact-check for his speech, he needs a fact-stimulus:

That sad, pathetic, speech – is a chain of lies, exposing an agenda of nothing but more tax cuts and fewer rules for multi-millionaire CEOs to be paid for by slashing Social Security Benefits, Medicare and Food Stamps. Do you see a pattern of what programs they want to gut and who primarily benefits from these programs?

Early in the speech, Boehner criticizes the recent passage of aid to state governments to avert layoffs and provide health care funding referring it to as a Bailout. Again complete disregard of the middle class.

“[President Obama] signed a 26 billion dollar ‘stimulus’ spending bill that funnels money to state governments in order to protect government jobs. Even worse, the bill is funded by a new tax hike that makes it more expensive to create jobs in the United States and less expensive to create jobs overseas”. Spin baby spin. This bill closes the tax loop-holes for businesses that send jobs overseas. It makes farming jobs overseas more expensive to companies. But see the pattern here? When you are for big-business this is a tax increase instead of a plan to keep jobs here in the USA. Repugnant.

This cannot continue. I have had enough – and the American people have had enough – of Washington politicians talking about wanting to create jobs, reduce the deficit, cut taxes to real small businesses, etc. as a ploy to get themselves re-elected while doing everything possible to prevent jobs, lower deficit, tax cuts to small businesses from being created. Just look at the bevy of bills the republicans are holding hostage.

He characterizes the goal to "protect government jobs" as a bad thing. Later in the speech he proposes "freezing both government pay and government hiring."

Meanwhile he used the phrase "job-killing" to describe the President's economic strategy a dozen times.

Yet he embraced a position -- denying aid to fiscally distressed state governments and hiring no more federal government workers, filibustering job bills etc., that would literally kill hundreds of thousands of jobs, including those of teachers, police officers and firefighters.

Off Topic - but wanted to make sure this stays close to the top...

Uh Hum... Can I have your attention please?

Please join me in wishing Gingerbread Mamma a very special Birthday today! 29 is always soooo special! ;0)

*HUGS* & Popcorn Cake for all!

Hear, hear... Happy Birthday Gingerbread Mamma!!!!!!

Boehner is a joke and hopefully, the people of Ohio wil realize that he is not for them but against them. If they are serious about knocking the imcumbents out, then he is a prime example of a broken system that needs to be fixed.

Steele and company are in a maelstrom of perpetual bad press that continues to circle the toilet.

Happy Birthday and many many more.

Happy Birthday Gingerbread Mamma. I hope this day brings you much joy.

On another note, glad to see the pushback on John Boehner by everyone. Great work done by all.

Happy Birthday, Gingerbread Mama--and many more!!! Cake and popcorn available in the conference room.

Happy birthday, GM. 29? My My- you're just a pup!

Happy B-day to my favorite fellow South Florida poster!! If I run into you in WPB this weekend, the first margarita is on me! :-)

Err Drive-By...

I see a certain someone is lurking around here again this morning... so let's keep the date at the Malt shop on the down low shall we?

You know how much she WANTS YOU! lol

Happy Birthday Ginger Bread MaMa, and many more.

Happy Birthday, GBM!

May you have Many more.

Happy Birthday Ginger Bread MaMa!

Happy Birthday GM!

FR may have an excellent point on the anger factor this year. There certainly isn't a time in my life when so many have done so much to stoke the anger. Much of it isn't even accurate or factual, but there's a perception that anger can be channelled to one purpose or another.

I don't know what would lead any rational person to think that's a viable strategy. Anger is by nature explosive, uncontrollable, unpredictible, irrational. It automatically works against making smart decisions and fixing problems. It only makes problems. Pandora has opened the box, and America is suffering as a result. I only know of one way to handle it.

"If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you; If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; . . . If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same . . . Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it." --Rudyard Kipling

Happy Birthday Gingerbread Mamma! "29" was always special to my Dad, too - in fact, he was still celebrating that one when I was 39! Have a great day.

HAPPY Birthday, GingerBread Mama! I hope you have a terrific, wonderful day!

Happy birthday, GingerBread Mama! Enjoy your day!

Feisty- to quote Roseann Roseanna Danna:

"Hey, whatta tryin' to do, make me SICK?"

Happy Birthday Gingerbread Mamma--all your FR poster friends are symbolically taking you out to lunch for your special day!

Very nice Copy and paste guys............ and way to go with the rest of you Stroking the Egos.. The liberal emplosion is Beginning...........

Have a great day.

LouisJ.............now tell me.............how do you explain Marion Barry, the fine congressman from Harlem, and Maxine whats-her-name from California, that the fools keep electing to office over and over. You mean it is OK for this to happen if they are Democrats?

It would be funny materialfor Saturday Night Live or other political humor program to show the 2000 Maverick McCain debating the 2008 mainline Republican McCain debating the Populist Tea Partyer McCain of 2010. It is like a home movie of dressing your kid up for Halloween for a decade.

McCain is a chameleon. He will change his colors to fit in with the majority of voters. At least the McCain maverick of 2000 had independent beliefs. That is a contrast to 2010 and saying whatever needs to be said to please the Arizona right wing.

Cry all you want Dems, but the Reps are taking back both Congress & Senate... just in time to save the USA from clueless Obama!

The Dev

And what if they make the situation even worse from what Obama has had to deal with? What then? What spin will you try to put on their failures then?

Steve-505729

Very nice Copy and paste guys............ and way to go with the rest of you Stroking the Egos.. The liberal emplosion is Beginning...........

Have a great day.

Nice to see the righties hating on even.......birthday wishes???

LouiseJ, do you live in Wasilla, or really know anything about the place? To say people who do not see the things as you do,"shortsighted" is a usual remark from people shootin in the dark! Because others see things different than you, doesnt mean they are less informed, less educated, or less anything than you! Opinions are like @!$%#s, everyone has one, if you dont like being insulted for havin yours, dont insult other peoples intelligence for havin there's!

Joe, it seems that you have me confused with someone that believes Rangel and Waters transgressions are the centerpiece for hate talk and policies that would drive the tax payers into the ground.

I don't live in Harlem nor California.

But to the crazies that shout, "VOTE ALL INCUMBENTS OUT!!!" are the fools that elect the clueless into office.

You TEA baggers actually believe in these people that would assume set race relations back 100 years, would raise taxes, would raise the debt, would deregulate natural resources, banking industry, home mortgage industry, would halt economic growth...

I would rather elect an old crook that knows how to get policies drafted and are good for the economy than a new younger crook that knows nothing. The latter is being elected by you.

I believe my philosophy on this issue is a lesser of two evils.

Dear Dave,

I am writing to you in the effort to inform you that you will vote for Levi, not because you are "less educated", I'm not saying you are less educated... but being short sighted is a common issue between those that blindly follow someone based on a common hatred, as opposed to individuals that look at the long range goals and actually peruse the American landscape with solutions to the problem instead of being the problem itself.

A piece of crap Rep in Quayle comes out and runs on "Obama is the worst president in history" and wins. Obviously there are many people out there who believe it to be true.

Your "deep thoughts" is a true hate speach example.
No substance, facts or un-biased analysis is being presented - that is what you have all in common and clearly uncoveres and defines all unti - Tea Party pandits.

Tea party people are real Americans and most of them are for smaller government, less debt and more freedom for all - including your right to speak out, just have decency to argue with the facts vs. your blant and unfounded hate-filled remarks...

God bless America - for Americans now awaken, thanks to such haters of true free speach like you...

How is the comment collapsed? Don't like the comment? Are you fear mongers exercising your right to suppressing free speech... but hey, I can play along too.

As my dear ol' mammy used to say, "If you can't take the heat then get out of the kitchen."

It's obvious the Right can't debate facts, so instead of thinking, they wish it away.

Lyudmila

Kinda hard to take your arguement seriously, when your arguement doesn't have substance, facts, or un-biased analysis of any kind. Your agrueing that his arguement is biased, when your arguement is just as biased.

LouisJ,

The comment was collasped because they knew you were right and couldn't stand the sight of it. Just because I don't agree with Lyudmila doesn't mean I will collapse their comment because I don't agree with it. It shows their true collors, and how immature they are.

LouisJ,

I have repeatedly asked the moderators what causes a comment to be 'collapsed by the community' and to date have heard NOTHING back...

I did notice that if you click on the little box with the + in it next to your name it re-opens!

What do you day Mark Domenico I asked some question last week and there was more than enough interest by fellow posters as to how things work around here...

Be nice to get some answsers...

I got to tell you that if these right wing nitwits are scamming the system you are going to lose A LOT of old time regulars around here...

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL - you are going to lose A LOT of old time regulars around here...

This is bad how????

Feisty - I saw the box with the "+" sign too and it opened everything right back up, so I'm not sure what the point is in "collapsing" it in the first place. But since I'm assuming Gingerbread Mamma is off somewhere enjoying her birthday, hope you'll share that with her, too, since all our good wishes seem to have been caught in the same collapse!

Yes, Mark, how do things work? Do you kick out the people that disagree with people's views a crime?

Fiesty, what does "What do you day" mean? hmmmmmmmmmmmmm kind of like how I make spelling mistakes? psssss....................everybody makes mistakes, even you.....................LOL

"What do you day Mark Domenico I asked some question last week and there was more than enough interest by fellow posters as to how things work around here..."

hmmmmmmmmm.....................I wonder if that's a threat or promise? LOL

"I got to tell you that if these right wing nitwits are scamming the system you are going to lose A LOT of old time regulars around here..."

If you know what the term tea-bagger means, you're out of order. Sexual slurs aren't a good way to make your point.

New CNN poll – Only 50% of Republicans want to extend tax cuts for the top 2% of earners.
According to the survey, only 53% of self-identified moderates back extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. Only 9% of liberals said the same thing. Conventional wisdom would hold that Republicans would be the chief proponents of the proposal. But only 50% of conservative respondents said they want tax rates for the wealthy kept in place -- the same percentage of Republicans support a full extension of the Bus tax cuts.

Top GOP officials have said they will fight the president's proposal to extend the Bush tax cuts for the lower and middle classes while allowing those for the wealthy to expire.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/20/only-50-of-gop-supports-e_n_689326.html

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/08/19/rel11g.pdf

Evidence from the last 9+ years has proven that tax the cuts for the rich has not created jobs. We need 125,000 jobs every month to keep up with the population growth. Over the last 10 years we should have created 15 million jobs. As of now we have an estimated net zero jobs created. That 15 million jobs accounts for almost all of today’s unemployed.

The tax cuts for the rich that worked in the 80’s will not do the same today because of the strong competition in the global market. Our manufacturing is one-third the size it was in 1980 as is our export business.

Blame tax codes, blame unions, blame government, blame companies, blame banks, blame all of them or whatever you like and you will be only partly correct. We need a new model (government, business and tax) for competition in this century, in this new world market. Part of that includes a real solution for income and business taxes, a total revamping of the tax codes.

So tell me – what does the GOP gain, what does America gain by a filibuster of a replacement bill that extends tax cuts for all except for the top 2% ? Other than more debt !

Jody,

Very very well done. They cannot argue the numbers but I am sure they will try. There is an old saying that figures do not lie but liars figure. Great post.

Dennis:

Right on. The amazing thing is that some many people just do not get it. They seem not to relate to 2%.

Example if we gave 1,000,000 dollars in tax cuts to 1,000 people where 50% went of the top 2% (that is 20 people), you would have 980 people dividing up 500,000 and 20 people dividing up 500,000. That means middle America (the 98%) would get a tax cut of $500.00. The richest 2% would get a tax cut of 500,000/20 = $25,000.

I saw this in my local newspaper as posted by a HS Student.

Excellent post Jody: You and Navy have the best posts of the day!!

Great post, Jody--thanks for summarizing the report. I have always thought that the economic situation in late 2008 was worse than was generally known. I went to a seminar in early Sept., 2008 where one session was titled "How Your Business Can Survive the Coming Depression". The warning signs were there and I do think we were on the brink.

Like all of us, I wish the economic recovery would be faster and more robust but it is a tricky balancing act of growing the deficit even more and balancing taxes and spending.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio: So tell me – what does the GOP gain, what does America gain by a filibuster of a replacement bill that extends tax cuts for all except for the top 2% ? Other than more debt !

So what projections are the Democrats making for how many jobs will be created by raising taxes? 1 million jobs created? 2 million jobs created? That would be a good way for the Democrats to sell their tax program, correct? Just say it will create millions of jobs. It would make a snappy campaign marketing ad too:

"The Democrats! Taxing Our Way To Prosperity!"

Obama could give a speech about it. Can't see how the Democrats could go wrong doing this.

Do Taxes and Regulations impact hiring?

“But when Speer (CEO of Quality Float Works) and other executives were pressed on the role that tax and regulatory policies play in hiring, they drew only vague connections. Speer said his decision whether to hire is driven primarily by demand for his products. Orders are coming in strong enough that he is running about 20 hours a week of overtime. So he is weighing whether to hire two or three additional manufacturing workers.”

“None of the executives interviewed linked a specific new government initiative with a specific decision to refrain from hiring.”

"It took us a decade to get in the ditch we are in," Speer said. "There isn't going to be instant gratification to get us out of it. We're going to have to get used to a lower growth economy, and that is going to be a big adjustment for all of us."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/20/AR2010082005165.html?hpid=topnews

Excellent post, Jody. AND- you credit Bush, too, with having a quick and positive response as well. Can't wait to see how others view your post this morning. If all they do is try to tear it apart, then I guess we know issues and truth are not what they are on here for.

Thanks. Many other great posts and interesting that so many of the liberal posts were of similar thought.

Well, sure- didn't you know? All us 'libbies' gather here every day- not to discuss serrious issues, but to 'pat each other on the backs".

Democrats won't be raising taxes, the GOP will by virtue of their failure to make them permanent. At any point between 2001 through 2006, GOPers could have made the Bush tax cuts permanent instead of ALLOWING them to expire in Dec 2010. The tax hike for the wealthiest 2% will be a GOP tax hike--they were in charge when the voted for the legislation that allowed them to expire! Republicans VOTED FOR A TAX HIKE to occur in 2010.

Dennis;

Correct. Tax Cuts for businesses do not translate into jobs. In some cases the tax cuts will just offset increased operating expenses to the business( insurance, rent, utilities, etc.) or just sit in the bank until demand for their products or services increase. They will not hire people just to stand around the water cooler all day.

Another great post today.

It seems like a Republicn ploy - that the tax cuts end in 2010 - if they are in power -then they could extend them and look like heros.....if the cuts expire - then it appears as if the Democrats are raising taxes. (Was that a conspiracy on their part?)

And as I've stated in other posts - "The Repubs can't handle the truth" - Imagine - Boehner saying that Pres. Obama should hire adults - Why did Boehned take his toys and go home? (Wonder if he has ever looked in the mirror? (Oops - can't afford 7 years of bad luck now can we?)

Maybe if the Repubs acted responsible adults (maybe an oxymoron here) - the country would not be as divisive as it is and something would get done.

drive-by-observer

Well, sure- didn't you know? All us 'libbies' gather here every day- not to discuss serrious issues, but to 'pat each other on the backs".

You do seem to be an awfully insecure bunch. Probably comes from being wrong so often.

Joanna-by letting the tax breaks expire on the very rich, it won't create any jobs, but will plug a hole in the deficit.

The tax breaks on the very rich did not create any jobs. Making a person richer never created any jobs. Now I'm talking about personal wealth.

For an example. A CEO makes 20 million dollars at his company. Because of the Bush tax cuts, he gets to keep a lot more of that pay. Because his personal wealth now increased even more because of those tax breaks, did this person go out and create jobs with his personal wealth? No.

Personal wealth does not create jobs, companies create jobs.

Keep in mind that Warren Buffett the billionaire paid 17.7% taxes on his 46 million dollar earnings last year. His secretary and housekeeper paid 30% in taxes on the $60,000.00 they earned, Fair is fair, the millionaires and billionaires should be paying the same percentage in taxes as the secretary's and housekeepers.

Jody, I think the failure to understand the situation is based in the complete unfamiliarity we have with the concept of a depression. I believed at the time and continue to believe that TARP may be the one thing the Bush Administration got right, or close to it anyway.

So now the question is, do we continue this 30 year experiment with deregulation, redistribution of wealth to the top, and Laissez-Faire economics? I don't see any way for that to lead us anywhere except into an even bigger hole, one that perhaps emergency action by government can't even slow, let alone mitigate.

JoAnnaSmith1

Pretty sure that was sarcasm, but I suppose the Right Wing rheterotic spewed by Beck might cloud your mind.

TARP, ARRA, Demand Side, Supply Side, raising taxes, extending tax cuts, etc., all of the above /none of the above, .......

I don't know? But when the country wants Obama to focus on jobs and the economy and he spends so much time passing 2,400 pages of HCR creating future committees that will set rules and regulations that will have a dramatic effect on your cost ....

When the country wants responsible oversight and Obama passes 2,200 pages of Finance Reform creating future committees that will set rules and regulations that will have a dramatic effect on your operations without even addressing the primary reason that precipitated the meltdown ....

When the country wants responsible oversight of off shore drilling and Obama ignores Salazar's expert panel against shutting down production, when Obama ignores Bromwich's report that 24,000 jobs will be lost and Obama capriciously orders the shut down anyway.... When Obama says it won't effect shallow drilling, but changes the rules and permitting effectively shuts it down anyway....

When Obama wants to pass Cap and Trade, but will use the EPA in the interim to accomplish his agenda....

When everything Obama has done has the fundamental purpose of expanding the role and control of the federal government instead addressing the real concerns, it creates uncertainty in the business world and in the home. When the individual is uncertain and worried about keeping his job, if he/she has one, the individual locks down. When business has uncertainty, it locks down.

Uncertainty trumps TARP, ARRA, tax cuts, tax increases......

"Personal wealth does not create jobs, companies create jobs."

You could also say DEMAND creates jobs, Ted. It's kind of hard for Obama, or any other president, to create demand. Especially when people's jobs were outsourced so the companies could make even MORE money. No job- no demand.

Unemployment was 5% when Bush was in! Our decline began when the Dems took over in 2007! And now we will NEVER get out of the debt Obama has gotten us into. Keep drinking the Obama kool-aid and just see what you'll be paying in taxes next year. Medicaid taxes (payroll) are going up in 2011 because of Obamacare and this is just the beginning!

More Copy paste Drivel, Yawn.... and the usual stroking of egos.by the rest of the liberals.. Yawn.

Dennis, Columbus, Ohio:

I must respond to your post - but first a word for Gingerbread Mamma: Many happy returns, and take it from one who's been there, and been there, and been there - 39 is a very fine age.

Anyway! Dennis and my fellow travelers:

While I am enamored of your statistics, I must remind you that virtually every label you - or the poll - uses turns on SELF-identification, right on down to Republicans. I have friends who are registered Republican - honest, I do - but they have been crying for several years now. Someone hijacked their party, you know? Self-identification is a disaster and it fuels this nightmarish identity politics game that is destroying us.

How Boehner gets away spewing his BS, is a total mystery to me. If those people sitting in that audience were truly involved in the world of business, they had to know that nominal tax rates mean nothing. AGI is the key. This bears repeating. The same people who will tell you that half of America doesn't pay taxes believes that they are taxed at 10%. Like so many G.O.P. positions, these are mutually exclusive. Yet somehow they repeat this crap with a straight face. Why no cognitive dissonance? Again, this bears repeating - an exclusive diet of dogma food and fool-aid.

Blame, blame, blame. You make me weep with your absolutely spot-on observation. The consumption model is dead. The Laffer Curve is predicated on markets that have not been saturated. WE are to blame.

Chew on this for a bit. I contend that unless and until the President acknowledges that the unemployment figures are a useless indicator, we are in trouble. Conventional wisdom that holds the figures are understated is correct.......as far as it goes. The fact is, those figures speak to PAID employment.

Somehow, some way, the American public is going to have to understand that there are vast areas of the economy that require UNPAID employment. The first and most important is parenting. This is a topic for another day, but when you take that perspective you can readily see how a return to the economy of the past is utterly impossible.

Jody,

I hear alot of "take the country back", in the TEA party, is that "back" as in "backwards", or the 1920's- 1930's, I know it's not the 50's when Ike was pres. and the top tax rate was around 90%.

Only the Tea party could think backwards is forward!!

The truth is what it is, the dopes of nope GOBP and Reagan voodoo economics got us in this mess period.

Stimulus added millions of jobs in Q2

Tue, Aug 24 2010
By Andy Sullivan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The massive U.S. stimulus package put millions of people to work and boosted national output by hundreds of billions of dollars in the second quarter, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said on Tuesday.

CBO's latest estimate indicates that the stimulus effort, which remains a political hot potato ahead of the November congressional elections, may have prevented the sluggish U.S. economy from contracting between April and June.

CBO said President Barack Obama's stimulus boosted real GDP in the quarter by between 1.7 percent and 4.5 percent, adding at least $200 billion in economic activity.

During that time the economy was growing at an anemic pace.

Gross domestic product rose just 0.6 percent during that period, according to preliminary Commerce Department data which economists expect will be revised sharply lower when new figures are released on Friday.

The massive package of tax cuts, construction spending and enhanced safety-net benefits was passed in February 2009 in the midst of the deepest recession since the 1930s.

It raised employment by between 1.4 million and 3.3 million jobs during the second quarter of this year, CBO estimated.

Measured another way, CBO said the stimulus increased the number of full-time equivalent jobs by up to 4.8 million, as part-time workers shifted to full-time work or employers offered more overtime work.

CBO said the package, officially known as the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, would cost $814 billion, down from its previous estimate of $862 billion. The lower figure was thanks largely to health-care subsidies that cost less than anticipated. CBO initially estimated the bill would worsen budget deficits by $787 billion.

Other than that, the estimate varies only slightly from the budget office's forecast released in May.

With both the House of Representatives and the Senate up for grabs in November, Democrats hope voters will give them credit for breathing some life into the economy, which had begun to weaken while Republican George W. Bush was still president.

"The Recovery Act is working to rescue the economy from eight years of failed economic policy and rebuild it even stronger than before," Vice President Joe Biden said in a prepared statement. "It's impossible for even the most cynical, bent-on-rooting-for-failure critics to deny."

Republicans, who almost universally opposed the stimulus, have criticized it as wasteful and ineffective.

Some 67 percent of those surveyed in a Reuters/Ipsos poll last month said Obama is not focusing enough on job creation. Voters in that survey said the economy and jobs are the most pressing issues facing the country.

CBO said it expects the effects of the stimulus to gradually diminish over the remainder of the year.

(Additional reporting by Emily Kaiser; Editing by Cynthia Osterman)

I fully realize that tax hikes are inevitable at this point. We've spent too much money and displayed too great a refusal to cut waste to keep it from happening but I also understand this; Reducing the disposable income of the middle and upper class is NOT going to help create demand. Reducing the income of the lower class is not only going to not create demand, it's going to create more spending as more people become dependent on government to make ends meet. The expiration of the Bush tax cuts will affect everyone at every income level. My husband and I stand to pay about $2100 a year more in income taxes or about $175 a month. We've made smart financial decisions to stay in a smaller, affordable home with a mortgage payment we could still swing if one of us lost our income. We've made a concerted effort to pay down credit card debt. We are lucky enough through those choices and good jobs to have some disposable income at the moment. We use that to support local restaurants, small businesses and by items in the market place that aren't "necessary goods" What happens when our income is reduced by $175 a month because tax rates return to the Clinton-era levels? What happens when those with larger incomes than ours and therefore larger reductions in their incomes return to Clinton-era tax rates and their disposable income goes down? Demand cannot increase when people have less to spend. Reign in spending, push the expiration date of the tax cuts out a couple of years and give the economy a chance to stabilize before you further restrict the people's ability to positively impact demand. I won't be any happier about a tax increase in 3 years but as a nation we might be better able to afford it.

Copy and paste .. Copy and paste... and this makes it all True...... Nice job liberals on covering the pages with your heros.............. Yawn. just a bunch of liberal Drivel to make them feel better...

Is this the same Moodys that graded all the Mortgage Paper so high and got us into this situation in the first place?

I'll do my own figuring from now on!

John Bohlam,

I can't speak for the tea party, but I would even settle for the latter 90's when we had a democrat president that was tethered to reality and worked with a republican congress.

jomama,

Great post, well said. VOTED! Please give us your thoughts on the CBO's practice of static scoring and the fallacy of the Laffer Curve.

The dopes of nope, gobp also need your analysis of Milton Friedman's Nobel influence on voodoo economics.

It would help so much if you could clear up all of this once and for all.

Thanks in advance.

Jody - great post, though I don't think hardcore conservatives will take an educated guess, no matter how well educated, as fact. As onewhohaspaidallhislife mentioned, Moody’s has made mistakes in the past.

Suzy – What “waste” would you recommend cutting? I’ve no doubt that some exists, but do you believe that over a trillion dollars per year exists in waste? You are right that the expiration of the Bush tax cuts won’t help demand, but do you believe further tax cuts would help? I’m not opposed to extending the cuts for a year or so, but what would you do to stimulate demand now?

Steve - If you posted constructive criticism, perhaps people would take you seriously. Or is that not your objective?

Ted-050247: Joanna-by letting the tax breaks expire on the very rich, it won't create any jobs, but will plug a hole in the deficit

You really think that? What are the estimates, $680 billion over ten years? So that's $68 billion a year more in taxes. For a government that is deficit spending $1.4 trillion dollars a year, that's less then a 5% "hole in the deficit". And you realize Ted that you are saying the government can spend the money better then the people that earn it. That's looking more and more like a losing argument.

And on top of that, no jobs will be created, and in fact may cause jobs to be lost. Well, maybe some government jobs will be created, that seems to be where Obama puts most of the taxpayers money.

Great posts! I think another important question should be what does the GOP gain by blocking and filibustering tax breaks for small businesses, the very people they claim they're here to help? Well, I think the bill will go through, but not until after the smoke clears on the November elections. Then, they can say, "Hey, look at what we did!" knowing full-well that the number of Americans watching them vote against an earlier version of the same bill on C-Span were far and few between. I agree with this article 100%. People aren't focusing on how the elected officials we already have are doing or what their track records are; they're siding with the politicians that are playing the best game, telling them exactly what they want to hear. Fear-mongering and getting them riled up, angry, and hateful. Nothing will get solved. The economy will not instantaneously recover, but like you said, facts are those pesky things that interfere with ideological beliefs.

Does anyone else remember this?

Obama and Bush join forces on bailout
By: Mike Allen and Carol E. Lee
January 12, 2009 11:39 AM EDT

President-elect Barack Obama has teamed up with President George W. Bush for what could be the last major action of this presidency.

At Obama’s request, Bush has agreed to ask Congress for the second $350 billion of the $700 billion financial bailout.

The move came shortly after Bush told reporters at this final scheduled news conference Monday morning that he would request the funds only if Obama asked — and that Obama hadn’t yet asked.

Obama has said he plans to seek substantial changes in the program to provide more transparency — information on how the money is spent — and to make more of it available for consumers, homeowners and small businesses.

Every day I come into first Read and see the same handful of narrow minded left wingers in here religiously blowing each others horns and discrediting anybody who has a different opinion than theirs. What’s sad is I never see them on any other message boards which proves to me that they only get their information from bias First Read and therefore it makes all their repeated comments nothing more than liberal BS. You can hide in this forum all you want but it doesn’t change reality that America is not happy with this administration, the house or all of congress.

I will not attempt to persuade you sheep anymore as I know you are in the first read bubble and think that everything has gotten better since the POMPUS was elected. I will just start a new trend and will bring the current headlines to you so you won’t have to leave the comfort of your computer chair and first read. Let’s call this segment,,,,,,,

Your daily dose of reality.

Grim housing report pushes Dow below 10,000 (below 10,000. Wasn’t it up above 12,000 just two years ago?)

Sales of new homes hit slowest pace on record (no surprise there. And according to the world news last night Freddie and fanny are in big trouble and losing money because they have so many foreclosed properties. They will be asking for more money shortly wait and see)

Dan Quayle's son wins congressional primary (This is actually disturbing. Just goes to show he’s not the only one who thinks this is the worst president in history)

Alaska incumbent Murkowski in jeopardy (this is kind of sad too. Palin can quit her job and back a tea party loser and they win.)

Insurgents launch a dozen attacks across Iraq (expect more of this to happen. Although I want to see are service member back home Iraq doesn’t even have a government in place yet.)

Anger trumping accomplishments in 2010 primaries(Perhaps it’s because all the so called accomplishments are not working and have only created confusion, less money in the people’s pockets, and massive debt)

Business spending slips amid cooling economy (no doubt. They are all sitting on their profits as is my company. And they will not hire or spend until they know what 2011 will bring. The Dems can be thanked for that uncertainty)

Afghans: Obama's timeline has backfiredOfficials claim a morale boost to the Taliban.

But remember,,,, Things are good.

You really think that? What are the estimates, $680 billion over ten years? So that's $68 billion a year more in taxes. For a government that is deficit spending $1.4 trillion dollars a year, that's less then a 5% "hole in the deficit". And you realize Ted that you are saying the government can spend the money better then the people that earn it. That's looking more and more like a losing argument.

First, part of the deficit comes from the shrinking of the tax base. As the economy recovers (sooner or later), tax revenues will increase. 680 billion may only be 5%, but when we’re arguing over cutting 100 billion over 10 years from defense, it’s nothing to scoff at. It’s also a relatively easy way to cut the deficit – simply let those cuts expire.

I wouldn’t mind letting all of the cuts expire, but that may have to wait a year or two. 3.7 trillion would go a lot farther than 680 billion.

You can hide in this forum all you want but it doesn’t change reality that America is not happy with this administration, the house or all of congress.

Is that the administration's fault or the uhmerican people's for thinking change should be instant? Surely things could have been handled differently, but even our opinions on how these crises might be alternately handled are different. That the American people aren't happy doesn't really prove anything, except that they're unhappy.

Anon... There is nothing that comes from any of you liberals that is Constructive.. Its always the same with you liberals.. one of you post something. the rest of you chime in and tell that person how great they are .. copy and paste . .. Hey..Great post.. the next liberal comes along. Copy and paste.. Hey. .Great post.. . thats all you liberals do. You Divert the real news about the Failed polices of this Administration with Drivel . Claim its all True because you say it is.. ... Drink more koolaid.. you guys really think you are having an Affect on the General Population. I come here for the Comedic Relief.. to laugh at the 7 or 8 of you that stroke each others ego.... Great Job...... now please go back to Coping and Pasting and telling us how great you all are.. K thanks..

Have a wonderful day.

you rocket scientists do know that when the bush tax cuts "for the rich" expire the lowest bracket goes up 5% don't you?

Anon Monster!: First, part of the deficit comes from the shrinking of the tax base. As the economy recovers (sooner or later), tax revenues will increase. 680 billion may only be 5%, but when we’re arguing over cutting 100 billion over 10 years from defense, it’s nothing to scoff at. It’s also a relatively easy way to cut the deficit – simply let those cuts expire

Okay, so now we're going to do some dynamic scoring. What you're saying is that the government can better spend money then the people/businesses can. You're saying more jobs will be produced because of the government taking the money from the people and giving it to whoever they chose, and that spending will produce more jobs then the private sector.

Europe tried the same thing over the past few decades by increasing the welfare state and increasing their taxes. They found out that led to chronic unemployment and massive deficits added to massive debt. And because of high unemployment and no growth, the additional tax revenues that were expected never materialized. So maybe you should set you expectations a little lower then they appear to be.

It is a shame when facts do not matter to some folks because they have their minds set and even if you slap them in the face with the facts, they will still not believe the truth, but for some reason will believe lies because it suits their own mindset. These very same folks also get to vote. There is a responsibility when it comes to voting. I just read a Newsweek article about the dumb things Americans believe - even it wasn't so sad it would be hysterically funny.

What truly stuns me about the Republicans is that they will shamelessly act like they had no responsibility for this crisis and somehow they are the ones who can fix it. How can you fix something you had a hand in creating when you take no responsibility for your part in it? Seems to me you would do the same thing all over again. Oh wait, that is exactly what they plan to do. Silly me!!!

Heaven help us all if the Republicans get control of the House because they would make more of a cluster than we already have. And the very same folks who voted them in will be moaning and groaning. Be careful what some of you wish for.

My one and probably main issue with the Democrats is their lack of fortitude. If they will not stand up for what they believe in why should we. Well I will because the alternative is chilling and I really believe the Democrats on the right side of the issues. I loudly and proudly stand with you President Obama!!!!

Anon... There is nothing that comes from any of you liberals that is Constructive.. Its always the same with you liberals.. one of you post something. the rest of you chime in and tell that person how great they are .. copy and paste . .. Hey..Great post.. the next liberal comes along. Copy and paste.. Hey. .Great post.. . thats all you liberals do. You Divert the real news about the Failed polices of this Administration with Drivel . Claim its all True because you say it is.. ... Drink more koolaid.. you guys really think you are having an Affect on the General Population. I come here for the Comedic Relief.. to laugh at the 7 or 8 of you that stroke each others ego.... Great Job...... now please go back to Coping and Pasting and telling us how great you all are.. K thanks..

So your argument is that you shouldn’t have to post anything constructive because others don’t in your estimation? Two wrong don’t make a right, Steve. (though, apparently, they make a Republican! I’ll be here all week folks!)

Still, if you believe this place to be a liberal-love-fest (and who doesn’t love a good old fashioned love fest?), why do you post here? Do you wish to change the minds of your intellectual opponents? If so, why not post something more substantive, other than your usual “We Republicans understand that Democrats <insert misleading/insulting opinionated non-factoid>”?

"you rocket scientists do know that when the bush tax cuts "for the rich" expire the lowest bracket goes up 5% don't you?"

Only if the Republicans follow through on their threat to lock down the Senate over this issue, Kylomg. The Democratic plan is to extend the tax cuts for everyone below $200,000 individual, $250,000 filing jointly. If you lose youre tax cut it'll be the Republicans' doing.

and Anon..

I am not sure what part of my post that you dont understand... I COME here for the Comedic Relief.. the laugh Fest of you liberals all Stroking Each others Egos.. Thats what makes you feel better.. its the touchy Feely hopey Changey Society you liberals live for.. You base Everything you do upon emotion and your liberal friends on here Stroking that Ego.. Is Drivel. it means nothing it the Greater scope of things.. You Liberals on a Daily Basis come here. . Post your Copy and Paste and then Stroke each others Egos.. I am not sure what part of that you can't understand.. There is nothing on any of these pages from any of you that is going to Change anyones mind.. You like what each other say and thats all.. Its funny..

and most of us republicans know this.. but somedays we engage.. Most days we just come for the good laugh of the 7 or 8 of you that come here and SLOWLY STROKE ME....

For Jody-I guess what happened last night really bothers you radical liberals, but I prayed that the outcome would be what it is (so far) with Joe Miller leading Murkowski and McCain winning. Why? well it's all about fairness. You liberals and your media counterparts love to express outrage with Quayle and his negative ad declaring Obama the worst president, but you fail to mention that Bush was called the same and worse by far left nuts like you. Why is it that tolerance is preached by folks on the left, but they never seem to give it for folks on the right? Where does your line for tolerance begin? Just because we think Obama is a socialist (look at his friends and his early speeches, not to mention his big government take over) we are characterized as "far right", whereas Obama and Pelosi who are definitely socialists are never deemed "far left". Also, what about Palin-she has had to endure so much mockery from you leftist elitist and why? because she dares to call you on your "better than anyone" mentality. Palin is called "dumb" by just about every liberal commentator even though she ran the State of Alaska superbly and won two terms as Mayor. You may not like her politics and that's okay, but to say she is stupid or unworthy of office, even though the guy we have in there now had no experience at all including running a business, is shameful and deceitful. I am so sick and tired of this double system that I can't wait to vote in November for every republican and independent I can to teach a lesson to the democrats. Folks voted for CHANGE BUT NOT FOR SOCIALISM/COMMUNISM/ OR THE NANNY STATE BIG GOVERNMENT.

JoAnna

Okay, so now we're going to do some dynamic scoring. What you're saying is that the government can better spend money then the people/businesses can. You're saying more jobs will be produced because of the government taking the money from the people and giving it to whoever they chose, and that spending will produce more jobs then the private sector.

Europe tried the same thing over the past few decades by increasing the welfare state and increasing their taxes. They found out that led to chronic unemployment and massive deficits added to massive debt. And because of high unemployment and no growth, the additional tax revenues that were expected never materialized. So maybe you should set you expectations a little lower then they appear to be.

I didn’t say any such thing. We’re talking about deficit reduction, not the connected argument about what services the government should be providing. As I’ve said to you before, I believe that, to erase the deficit, we will be facing an increase in taxes and a reduction in services. Letting the Bush tax cuts expire is a rather easy way to increase revenues. All congress has to do is nothing, something they are pretty good at. An increase in the FIT rate (which would still keep our rates well below European rates) of roughly 4 percent translates to 3.7 trillion dollars over 10 years. No one wants to raise their own taxes, but we’re going to have to stomach some of the burden. On the flip side, the proposed reduction to defense spending is a nice start, but there’s a long way to go before the deficit is erased.

As for increased tax revenues coming with the recovery, virtually no one believes we’ll be sitting at 10% unemployment forever, though that doesn’t mean it’s not a possibility. In all likelihood, people will eventually find jobs and the housing market will eventually recover to some degree, increasing revenues to both federal (income tax) and state (property tax) governments. This will also help erase some of the deficit.

Joi G,

You are right.

Everyone acknowledges that Freddie and Fannie precipitated the financial meltdown that led to the current crisis.

Beginning on Feb 10, 2003, Bush worked to overhaul Freddie and Fannie. His efforts culminated in 2005 with the introduction of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Act of 2005. The legislation failed to make it out of committee, 55 Republicans (for) - 45 Democrats (against).

Bush failed to get the 5 necessary Democrat votes that could have prevented everything 3 years later.

Wiki it Joi. Don't feel bad, you are not alone, most of the clueless (and willfully blind) loudly and proudly stand with Obama!! They represent about 20% of the populace, same as the ones that think Obama is a Muslim and same per centage that think aliens have visited Earth.

BTW - The meltdown was a credit issue, not a tax issue.

Anon, Yes, I do think keeping more money in peoples paychecks will help create demand. When there's no disposable income to buy with, demand cannot increase. Since I did acknowledge that tax increases are inevitable based on the out of control spending we've seen in the last decade, I think I've covered the fact that no, there's not a trillion dollars in waste to cut to cover said out of control spending. As for where to cut, eliminate redundancy in government agencies. Eliminate the Cadillac health care and pension plans for Congress- most are already millionaires and many find massive income sources upon leaving office, I think they can support their own retirements and they can function under the same healthcare system they've envisioned for you and I if we are footing the bill. Require legislation to pass on a stand alone basis. If a pork barrel spending project can only pass when attached to, say, Health Care Reform, it probably has no business passing in the first place. Spending bills should pass on their own merits or not at all, end of story.

As for increasing demand, best I have right now is stop passing multi-billion dollar spending bills virtually every week. The more we spend, the more people fear what's coming. Many of the bills that pass contain little "surprises" we don't know are coming until weeks or months after they've passed (Al-la Nancy's infamous statement, we have to pass it in order to know what's in it"). It doesn't do a thing to increase consumer confidence.
Anon, Yes, I do think keeping more money in peoples paychecks will help create demand. When there's no disposable income to buy with, demand cannot increase. Since I did acknowledge that tax increases are inevitable based on the out of control spending we've seen in the last decade, I think I've covered the fact that no, there's not a trillion dollars in waste to cut to cover said out of control spending. As for where to cut, eliminate redundancy in government agencies. Eliminate the Cadillac health care and pension plans for Congress- most are already millionaires and many find massive income sources upon leaving office, I think they can support their own retirements and they can function under the same healthcare system they've envisioned for you and I if we are footing the bill. Require legislation to pass on a stand alone basis. If a pork barrel spending project can only pass when attached to, say, Health Care Reform, it probably has no business passing in the first place. Spending bills should pass on their own merits or not at all, end of story.

As for increasing demand, best I have right now is stop passing multi-billion dollar spending bills virtually every week. The more we spend, the more people fear what's coming. Many of the bills that pass contain little "surprises" we don't know are coming until weeks or months after they've passed (Al-la Nancy's infamous statement, we have to pass it in order to know what's in it"). It doesn't do a thing to increase consumer confidence.

Believe me,It is not over yet.this economy and stock market is on the verge of collapse

I have a couple of questions

1. If allowing the tax breaks to expire and as the administration has stated every time that only those making over $250,000 would see a tax increase how this would be a bad thing for our economy and for the 95% of American tax payers.

2. What percentage of the latest unemployment figures include the thousands of jobs lost because of the BP oil spill disaster in the gulf? Is this to be blamed on the current administration as well?

What absolute nonsense!!! The economists have already proven, that they have not a clue.

The US business people, that made tha this country the envy of the worl for so many years, take one look at academics that are attempting to guide the economy of the US , snort and hunker down, they know bs, when they see it.

We have economists also, the different between our economists and the the ones the government uses, is that our economists workk on a be right, or be gone, basis, we do not accept unexpected, miscalculated, or underestimated.

Our econmists prdicted everything that is going on right now, a year ago.

Personally, in April of 2008, when it became evident that either Clinton, or Obama would be running, I converted all posssible assets to gold, no taxes, till it's sold, there they stay, till the inept liar, in the white house is an obscure historical footnote.

Bob-1440886 says

won’t have to leave the comfort of your computer chair and first read. Let’s call this segment,,,,,,,

Your daily dose of reality.

Grim housing report pushes Dow below 10,000 (below 10,000. Wasn’t it up above 12,000 just two years ago?)

Bob since you asked a question about the DOW two years ago I am Compelled to answer NO! The DOW slipped to below 10,000 in Oct 2008 to 8,451.19 it continued its freefall to a low of 6,626.94 in March 2009. Below is a link that has the complete history of the DOW since you want to use that as an indicator of what I don't know it has nothing to do with anything, but it does show that you are just a blow hard and really aren't checking any facts before launching into a rant.

Your other points are subjective and not worth answering because there aren't provable by hard facts but basically opinion and we all know about opinions! When your very first statement is absurdly wrong I have very little confidence in anything else you have to say!

says it best :Voltaire

http://www.nyse.tv/dow-jones-industrial-average-history-djia.htm

2. What percentage of the latest unemployment figures include the thousands of jobs lost because of the BP oil spill disaster in the gulf? Is this to be blamed on the current administration as well?

2 answers. First the (sort of) tongue in cheek answer, Bush takes the heat for not creating more jobs without consideration for what things like the .com bubble bursting and thousands of techies finding themselves unemployed, 9/11 severely damaging the travel industry and Katrina wiping out how much business on the coast, isn't it fair that Obama also take heat for the disasters that happen under his watch even though they may have been through no action of his own doing?

Second, the truth, when his policies (restricting drilling) are directly responsible for those jobs not coming back, yes, he should take the heat.

Suzy wrote:

Anon, Yes, I do think keeping more money in peoples paychecks will help create demand. When there's no disposable income to buy with, demand cannot increase. Since I did acknowledge that tax increases are inevitable based on the out of control spending we've seen in the last decade, I think I've covered the fact that no, there's not a trillion dollars in waste to cut to cover said out of control spending....

As for increasing demand, best I have right now is stop passing multi-billion dollar spending bills virtually every week. The more we spend, the more people fear what's coming. Many of the bills that pass contain little "surprises" we don't know are coming until weeks or months after they've passed (Al-la Nancy's infamous statement, we have to pass it in order to know what's in it"). It doesn't do a thing to increase consumer confidence.

I understand the concepts of demand and disposable income. However, you acknowledged the need for increased taxes at some point. How long would you wait to increase taxes?

You mentioned requiring legislation to pass on a stand along basis. I'm just as opposed to pork as you are, but I think this would further slow congress. The reality of politics today is that deals have to be cut for legislation to pass in many cases, on both sides of the aisle. I think the system itself is what needs changing.

As for increasing demand by not passing legislation, you already suggested that people don't have the money to demand the amount of goods and services that might grow the economy. Do you believe they are so worried about Congress' bills that they are curtailing the little spending they are capable of? I believe most of the American people are so far removed from politics that this has nothing to do with it.

"Everyone acknowledges that Freddie and Fannie precipitated the financial meltdown that led to the current crisis."

Awww Bob, there you go again.

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/things-everyone-in-chicago-knows/

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/05/dear-gop-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-cause-financial-crisis-subprime-mortgage-gse

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2010/06/04/did-fannie-and-freddie-really-cause-the-housing-bu.aspx

http://www.bluemassgroup.com/diary/20321/did-fannie-freddie-and-barney-frank-cause-the-housing-bubble

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/06/did-fannie-and-freddie-cause-the-housing-bubble/57664/

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010/08/more-debunking-of-the-freddie-and-fannie-caused-the-crisis-meme.html

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/04/fannie-maefreddie-mac-thought-experiment-ii/

http://www.whereistheoutrage.net/wordpress/2010/05/03/did-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac-caused-economic-meltdown/

http://useconomy.about.com/od/criticalssues/a/Fannie_Cause.htm

It's a lot closer to the truth to say that everyone except people with a political axe to grind acknowledge that there was a systemic failure of the banking system and regulation thereof.

Da Shadow wrote:

1. If allowing the tax breaks to expire and as the administration has stated every time that only those making over $250,000 would see a tax increase how this would be a bad thing for our economy and for the 95% of American tax payers.

2. What percentage of the latest unemployment figures include the thousands of jobs lost because of the BP oil spill disaster in the gulf? Is this to be blamed on the current administration as well?

1. The conservative responses are that it's not fair for the government to take more from the rich, considering they already pay the largest portion of our nation's taxes, and that the wealthy stimulate the economy by buying more goods than the poor. Liberal responses are that the rich can afford it, the rich have seen a steady drop in actual taxes paid for many years now, and that the rich will spend roughly the same amount on goods and services with or without the increase in taxes (in essence, trickle-down economics is BS). You decide!

2. Suzy is right - Obama instituted the moratorium on drilling, and is directly responsible for the loss of jobs. But he shouldn't be judged too harshly for this act, considering the thirty thousand or so jobs temporarily lost is only a drop in the unemployment bucket, and that it's a reasonable response to a large-scale disaster.

Hey UCG

Did you see the question mark at the end of that statement? Duh? But thanks for the clarification. One thing remains certain the last two years have seen the stock market dip considerably and peoples retirement accounts being bled daily. Those are facts.

And John nobody cares about you liberal links. My headlines were taken directly from your Liberal MSN site today. The report about Freddie and Fannie being in trouble was on the world news last night. Things are only going to get worst for them but I'm sure our government will throw them some more money.

Stay tuned for tomorrow headlines.

bob-1805084

Joi G,

You are right.

Everyone acknowledges that Freddie and Fannie precipitated the financial meltdown that led to the current crisis.

Seriously, Bob? Everyone acknowledges? Only if you think that you are everyone. This has been disproven over, and over, and over, and over again, and again, and again . . . etc.

This just goes to show, Bob, that you do not want to face the truth. That you actively continue to say factual misstatements. You have absolutely no credibility, Bob.

Bob, if you plug in a date 2 years ago here http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=%5EDJI#chart1:symbol=^dji;range=20080825,20100824;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=off;source=undefined you'll see that even with the recent decline the Dow is up over 3,000 points compared to its bottom almost 2 years ago.

You've done enough to prove your lack of credibility today. You can go now.

ucg,

Really appreciate the link. After all I was guessing when I asked wasn't the stock market above 12k two years ago. And no doubt my memory isn't what it use to be.

August 22, 2008 - 11,638 August 29, 11,543

My sincerest apologies.

The market begin to go down towards the end of 08 then dove in the beginning of 09 and has been a roller coaster since.

Thanks for nothing john.

Anon, I figure 2 years is a reasonable time frame right now for extending the tax credits. IF the economy is slowly making a recovery as many like to believe and IF the balance of the ARRA money that's yet to be spent (2011 and 2012 I believe are target years for much of it) then we can reevaluate. I think, realistically, recovery is going to remain tenuous through at least 2014 when we understand the full effects of Obamacare, but my opinion and $4 might get me a coffee at Starbucks, I know. Again, I can't say with any degree of expertise that the tax cuts will positively impact demand as there are other factors at play but I am quite certain that reducing disposable income cannot positively impact demand.

I have to say I'm a little amused at your response to my feeling that bills should pass on their own merits, not be tagged on to other legislation if that's the only way they pass. One of the themes I constantly read from the liberals is not wanting to return to the failed policies of republicans. I see pork-barreling as a failed policy of BOTH sides and I think we should demand an end to it. When the old way doesn't work, you change it- isn't that what your side always says? If we keep accepting politics as usual, we keep getting politics as usual. I think we can do better.

Fiesty

bag of deceit

Good one GF LoL

Great Post Feisty: I too like the term bag of deceit. Does that fit into a...tea bag?

Feisty;

I agree 100%. This is really getting crazy. The politicians are becoming the gang of billionaires and how in the he!! does that relate to the needs of the middle class. Scott spent 50 Million on his primary, then we got the lady that destroyed HO, the wrestling Queen and others trying to buy into a governor's house, Senate or House. Big money is taking over and we are being hung out in the wind. If you are not a billionaire you cannot run for higher office. People that have nothing in common with middle America get elected we get pretty much what we have had before. More power and wealth being redirected to the top 2%.

Feisty - great post and you are so right. I would like to add that if they do take the country back, god forbid, how far back are they going to take it?

From the sounds of them itstoolate - I think the Beaver Cleaver era would be a comfort zone for them! lol

"take back vs take forward"- that'd make one hell of a campaign slogan! It definately speaks the truth.

Great post Fesity! You can't go wrong blaming Bush and Cheney. Lets hope all the Democrats catch on to that tactic, they'll win this fall for sure! And here's more ad campaigns the Democrats can use to win this years elections:

"Businesses are the problem! Government is the solution!" and:

"10% unemployment isn't so bad - It could be 15%"

The elections won't even be close.

JoAnnaSmith1

"Businesses are the problem! Government is the solution!" and:

"10% unemployment isn't so bad - It could be 15%"

The elections won't even be close.

You finally got it JoAnna

HEY, I'm glad you wised up; THINK POSITIVE!

Unlike the right we the President and his team didn't want to go backwards into a Depression. Just think all that the gaz -ill-onaires are spending could have gone into the economy to create jobs too.

I think the Republicans should use the slogan "Millions for Millionaires" when referring to tax cuts for the wealthy. Has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Wow, what a bunch of Obama kool aid drinkers!!! Will you still love Obama and his thugs when you're turning over 90% of your paychecks to the government, that is IF you even have a job!

I'm tired of the "rich" people being villified. This is America! If you think you're being screwed by the "rich" people, then work hard and become one yourself! That's still a possibility, but with The Community Organizer in charge that might just come to an end real soon!!!

The American People are doing the Right thing.. We are gonna get rid of the Liberals in Congress and stop the Destruction of the American Economy thats why you dems are gonna lose so many streets come NOV...

Now. you can all jump on me tell how mean i am.. and how great you all are..

Have a nice day.

More deceit from "You Lie" Boehner and Mitch McConnell -

It's important to examine the way people phrase the things they say. It is often that words are chosen to have a particular impact on the reader or listener. Both Republican leaders have recently framed the expiration of Bush's tax cuts for the top 2% of Americans as affecting "50 percent of small business income..." The initial response evoked by most listeners is that 50% of small businesses will be hit with tax hikes. This is NOT what they said, but it is what they want you to think.

These are the same tactics that snake oil salesmen and late night infomercial pitchmen use to lie to you without actually lying. What the republicans really are saying is that 2% of small businesses will be affected, but that this represents 50% of small business income. The vast majority of small businesses will be unaffected, but this reality is not what they want to sell you. They want to get you to believe a falsehood without actually lying. This is a trick as old as time and one that many Americans have never learned to watch for. Why else do so many people enter into bad mortgages, bad car loans, buy those stupid "Things the Government Doesn't Want You to Know" books, or actually think that the apples labelled "now without saturated fat!" are somehow different than the ones not labelled that way?

GOPers rail about liberal educations, but the one thing I learned in my "liberal" college was critical thinking and how to smell out obvious rhetoric and deceit when I hear it. With arguments like the one above about the tax cuts expiring, it's obvious repubs don't like it when their constituents have a liberal education complete with critical evaluation skills.

Keep Telling yourself that is it if it makes you feel Better.. because we want you libbys to feel good about yourself.. Keep convincing yourself that this is the problem. Because Us Republicans know its not the truth..

Wake up PHN, and smell reality. The Republican Party has waged war against the middle class for 30 years http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2008/09/gdp-per-capita.html on behalf of their wealty benefactors. I'm all in favor of bettering oneself, I work 55 hours/week to do just that. But when the system is continually gamed more and more toward those already wealthy http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/08/washington/08tax.html it gets increasingly hard to get ahead. http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mymoneyblog.com/images/0708/margtax1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.mymoneyblog.com/more-roth-vs-traditional-401kira-data-historical-marginal-tax-rates-vs-median-income.html&usg=__KU1oRJ6L4cADfpAWWknnu51sxkU=&h=380&w=450&sz=9&hl=en&start=7&zoom=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=jhPnoT39AjlXdM:&tbnh=107&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmedian%2Bincome%2Bover%2Btime%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1

Keep Believing everything the Democrats tell you. They love Keeping you in Economic Slavery..

Business says they are going to hold on to their money because of uncertainty. The truth is the top 1% is holding on to their money because they want to keep the economy down so Republicans will get elected. That way they can hold on to their big fat needless tax cut. They can also have a Congress that is more concerned about holding down wages.

Fox News keeps bringing up the fact that Obama has dropped in the

We are all screwed.this economy is on the verge of collape.

We intend to render the inept liar in the white house, harmless, a lame duck, if you will, untill we can remove him from office, in 2012.

To be fair, the meglomaniac in the white house has rendered a gret service to the country.

He has aroused conservatives, he has convinced conservatives, that not matter what programs, the liberal dems get, it will not be enough.

As soon as one parasite program is in place, they start right in on the next leech bill.

It took fifty years and the most quasi socialist president in the history of the US, to finally make us understand, now we understand, Jan of 2012, Obama is gone, Feb. of 2012, the insurance farce is gone, then, we start on the vampire programs, that the dems have installed for the last 50 years..

The libs went to far, this time, look for some "relearn to work classes, those peoplEwho, have lived off of the taxpayers for geberations, aRE GOING TO GET HUNGRY.

Mark, Rory, care to back any of that up with what those of us who work in the reality-based community refer to as "facts"?

We need business managers, not politicals, of course a little in office politics does help some times. They, some Republicans and Democrats all rob the cash register and expect to miraculously stay in business. And reward pukes on wall street who are already proven to be totally corrupt more money for Lambriginis, rolls, etc, and private CO 2 spewing planes and trains and automobiles. And to hell with making jobs for the masses who do spend on more down to earth job supporting ADVENTURES. Like homes, furniture, toys for mom and dad, And of course the kids. Movies, etc. The PUKES ON WALL STREET do not do this. They are introverts and spend on each other for self-ego-satisfaction and probably a lot of recreational drugs, and swinging Woodstock type Orgies.

Is the money involved coming directly from the unions or coming from the individual members? There is a big difference.

It's like the finger-pointing with President Obama receiving campaign donations from BP. Did they really come from BP or did it come from any employee who wrote a personal check to donate to the campaign?

The Supreme Court decision in Citizens United opens the door not only to added influence from big business but also from big unions...and neither is right.

Joe in albany

Businesses: bad

Too bad for all the unemployed, unions don't create any jobs, businesses do.

Correction: Joe is bad; in fact Joe is Dumb and bad. Fact check

Joe like Boehner has selective amnesia :

Boehner claims: "Not long after we spoke, he signed a 26 billion dollar 'stimulus' spending bill that funnels money to state governments in order to protect government jobs."

Fact: The recently enacted legislation will save the jobs of hundreds of thousands of teachers, firefighters and police officers.
http://www.gsmlaborcouncil.org/node/5813

Well we do agree on one thing Joe - Unions are good, Business are bad. Never would have had one paid holiday, vacation day, 8 hour work day, sick leave, health insurance, or safety in the work place without the Unions. If you think business care about you and your family you are way out there - deep outer space. For me and my working class family - we take the benefits brought to you by the hard work of Union members any day over the greed of the business who are only interested in making the rich richer.

Notice no mention of the 70+ Million that the US Chamber of Commerce is giving the Republicans in addition to monies from souces that are not defined thanks to the Supreme Court ruling.

Union Baby, Tennessee

Well we do agree on one thing Joe - Unions are good

They sure are. Just ask the union shop car makers in Michigan, where one of them had to be purchased by the government, or the steel plants in Pittsburgh, that were moved to Japan, or the textile industries in North Carolina, that were moved to Indonesia, or the wonderful teachers unions, which have caused the public education system to constantly be reformed and never improved but is always more expensive.

Unions. What a wonderful thing.

They take the funds from their members' dues. If you call that individual contributions, I have this great bridge to sell you cheap.

JoWhaaaana and NoJo- Don't join one.

Piece o' cake.

I guess you all just forgot about the 1 million dollars Fox gave to the RGA. Oh I forgot Joe that doesn't count because it's teabagger republicans. Proceed with your rants.

In a cruel twist of fate, the August USDOL BLS jobs report is scheduled to be released on 09/03/10, the Friday of Labor Day weekend. Given the dismal economic news in recent weeks/months it's likely to be another terrible report. The economy neeeds to create 150,000 jobs a month just to stay even with population growth. Somehow, I don't think the unions and all the many and varied Barry admin "stimulus" plans are going to get there.

All together now FR lefty liberals: "You're doin' a heck of a job, Barry"

Well I suppose Unions are bad because they give rights to the working class, who otherwise wouldn't have those rights.

JoAnna, by your post I am lead to believe that it was a bad thing to do to let thousands and thousands of jobs that are still IN AMERICA go to waste just to be picked up by foriegn car makers? Because that is where all those jobs would have headed, and it would have further bankrupted Michigan. Then you would have to try to stimulate a whole State with roughly 10 million people in it in hopes to try to give the economy a boost and get people more jobs who are by now out of jobs and options. If that didn't work it would have lead to the a crisis where people couldn't afford to keep their homes and would have to move-broke-into other States and increase the pressure on those States who now have several hundred thousand more broke people in them.

See in Michigan, if the auto companies go, the whole State will most likely crumble, and that could lead to an even greater crisis for the rest of the country. But no, don't throw us a bone it doesn't matter if a whole State falls apart, we can lose a couple stars on that great Flag of our's.

Right on Joe!

My question to the Republicnas is - How many jobs DID the Bush tax cuts create in the years it was around?

Boehner claims: "Not long after we spoke, he signed a 26 billion dollar 'stimulus' spending bill that funnels money to state governments in order to protect government jobs."

Fact: The recently enacted legislation will save the jobs of hundreds of thousands of teachers, firefighters and police officers.
http://www.gsmlaborcouncil.org/node/5813

Hey Bev,

Hate to break it to you, but Teachers, Firefighters and Cops are all government employees. So in reality All that money went to save GOVERNMENT JOBS. I know that's a hard concept, but your fact check amounts to little more than BS.

Paul S, NY NY

My question to the Republicnas is - How many jobs DID the Bush tax cuts create in the years it was around?

Good question, Paul- but you needn't use the phrase "when it WAS around"- Don't forget, it STILL IS around! And just lookit all the jobs!!

This is not good news:

Recovery in Danger as Firms, Homebuyers Cut Back

The Associated Press

| 25 Aug 2010 | 11:19 AM ET

The economic recovery appears to be stalling as companies cut back last month on their investments in equipment and machines and Americans bought new homes at the weakest pace in decades.

Overall orders for big-ticket manufactured goods increased 0.3 percent in July, the Commerce Department said Wednesday. But that was only because of a 76 percent jump in demand for commercial aircraft.

Taking out the volatile transportation category, orders for durable goods fell at the steepest rate since January. And business orders for capital goods took their sharpest drop since January 2009, when the economy was stuck in the deepest recession in decades.

Separately, Commerce said new home sales fell 12.4 percent in July from a month earlier to a seasonally adjusted annual sales pace of 276,600. That was the slowest pace on records dating back to 1963. Collectively, the past three months have been the worst on record for new home sales.

Drive By -

My bad....thanks - and I guess we'll be awaiting a looooooooong time before we get an answer,,,,

I think the Repubs answer for allll our problems is "MORE MORE MORE TAX CUTS - TAX CUTS AND MORE SPENDING"

Heck - we don't need to fund no wars - we don't need to fund no prescriptions - we don't need to fund no education - Heck - we don't even need to worry about the effects of tax cuts - (snark)

No Joe--I'm guessing you don't belong to a union so you may not understand how it works--unions have PACs (that is political action committee), to which the members make separate contributions. So the members' dues aren't used for politics as that would jeopardize the unions' non-profit standing with the IRS. Members aren't required to make these contributions.

What a coincidence, businesses also have PACs that take contributions from their employees and give to political causes that the company supports...... Go figure. But all you see is that a corporation is giving funds, not that a corporations PAC is giving the funds.... hypocrit.

Do you folks believe Unions in some industries have outlived their usefulness? What about public sector unions, who argued for great benefits and astronomical pensions for employees? Many states have larger budget deficits than stated because of the pension fund costs, costs that aren't reported in the budget due to the rules of governmental accounting.

Union Baby, US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired You are both right about you libs wanting to keep things in the past UNIONS. Were good at one time they are no longer needed in most areas of work. They do nothing more then collect money and give the leaders cushy jobs.The only line you stated correctly was what the unions did DECADES ago. Don't tell me about unions I was a teamster for many many years. Joined in 1970 I can tell you how many jobs I lost because the union drove the company out of business with their demands. How many trunking company's you want me to list. How about the Ford Motor Plant in Mawah NJ closed down in 1982 1 year after the CEO told the workers they had 1 year to bring up their quality control, and the minute he left the UAW Reps told the management and the workers that he was lying and would not change anything they were doing. Tell those 5000 workers how great the union was. I learned after I left the union and went to work for a non union Co. How things are now MOST companies today will treat workers right for one reason to get a GOOD worker is hard. To replace a GOOD worker is HARDER. Along with OSHA, DOT , Dept of EEO and many other State and Fed Dept they don't have a choice. Workers are given raises because they merit them not because the boss is threatened, somebody screws up the have to take responsibility and maybe lose their job. Is there something wrong with that way of doing business. The main reason the union leaders push so hard for the unions is so they can keep their nice cushy jobs. Now they want to do away with secret ballots. Card check etc. Mob tactics again how many union bosses are doing jail time or have done jail time for stealing retirement fund money. I can name 5 from just NJ.The Non union company I worked for paid me better wages gave me newer and better trucks to drive and just as good benefits. Yes I had to pay for part of the bene's, but so what. So don't tell me about the unions. After 20 yrs as a union member when I retired I could collect $25 a month because some of the Locals had non national retirement funds so that's all I was due. My wife also works at a non union plant good pay, excellent bene's 4 weeks vacation, 401k. No sweat shop no screaming boss, no safety short cuts( she is part of the safety committee) And the boss buys lunch once a month if all the quota's are met. And that's for the whole plant of 150. Never heard of that at any union plt.

The UAW is pissed at Toyota and Honda and the rest for having non union shops, but what they don't say is those workers are making the same wages as the unions and most have the same type benefits.

Paul Ny how many jobs? What was the unemployment level for most of the Bush years, up until the Bank HOUSING debacle started. And the fact of the crash is that BOTH Party's are to blame. Both party's Voted and passed bills that caused it. The Democrats filibustered a bill to regulate Fannie and Freddie and the bill died. So fon't push all the blame one way. Obama was one of the ones who fought against the REGULATION. Just like now Obama voted AGAINST the surge and policies in Iraq and is now taking credit for the outcome. All the computer analyses from Moody and all the rest has also been proved wrong by other computer programs. It's kind of like the computer programs that predict the hurricane season. Last year they missed BIG time this year so far they are not doing to well. It's a program. It is not able to figure all out comes correct all the time. CBO said at the time the Healthcare bill was being forced through Congress that it would SAVE money and CUT the deficit. Now that they have all the facts they have reversed their report saying it will do neither and in fact cost MORE money and RAISE the deficit. Dept. of Health and Human Services say it will cause long waits, cut services and quality to seniors, RAISE the cost of Healthcare to Companies and Individuals. And thats just part of the report. THESE are the things that cause employers to hold off hiring new people or expanding. The unknown costs to them. If I own a company and have a 4% profit margin and new TAXES will cost me to lose 1.5% profit it means I either have to fire, raise prices( Which you will pay) or find some other way to get my profit back up to 4%. I know BAD business's. But if I have to think of the future and what to do for keeping the company going I have to have a profit. DUH!!!!

I think you and the rest of your liberal friends need to quit blaming BUSH and the rest of the GOP for things that you had a SUPER majority and still did diddly squat. Since 2006 you have been in control of BOTH houses and could not get anything passed other then who your party wanted to bring charges against. Obama has had 19 months and has done very little except spend money we don't have. Show me the facts to say any different and I don't want facts from Blogs, MSNBC, or any of the liberal media. His .GOV website for jobs created was proved to be a bunch of lies. Posting jobs that were 2 week jobs or that were not really created or saved. So your FACTS leave a lot to question.

Right wingers don't want to recognize it, but there is a huge difference between unions and corporations. Unions are made up of individual members who come together, as guaranteed by the original Constitution to petition their government and to seek protection in dealing with employers. Corporations are not representative of their shareholders. When is the last time any of were asked to approve political contributions by any company whose stock is in our 401K or IRA? The executives decide what they want and go buy themselves a few congressmen or senators. All of the social legislation, minimum wages, 40 hour workweek, employee safety regulations and anti-discrimination laws were supported by unions and opposed by corporations. Still want to bad mouth unions and hold up businesses as good? Name one union that has shipped jobs to China or India.

You are living in a democratic system. Unions are democratic oragnizations controlled by union members, one man one vote.

Big corporations are controlled by the few people (a few very wealthy people) that have a majority of voting stocks in that company.

If you divide the total dollar amount of the political contributions of those organizations by the number of people that control the union in one case and the number of the few people that control a corporation, you would see that the very few investors that control those corporations have a lot more control over your """" democratic"""" political system.

Nash,what you and the rest of the liberals do not understand about the CBO is that they score data on a certerus parabus basis-that is,all other things being constant. That is great in a classroom,but does not actually work out in the real world.

Obama keeps using a car analogy,so I'll go with that: we have a totally inexperienced mechanic trying to get a car out of a ditch. The only thing he knows how to do is keep spinning the wheels-thus digging it deeper into the ditch.

yesterday's home sales data are just another case in point: to no one's dismay, durable goods sales also plunged. The two measures go hand in hand, as when people buy homes, they also buy washers, dryers, microwaves and refrigerators.

The problem? The homebuyers' tax credit. Now,I was and am in favor of a tax credit for home purchases. New home construction has a multiplier of 12-existing home sales only slightly less. Unfortunately, Obama simply throws things out into the mix, and hopes something works. The tax credit should have been for at least three years-with a re-evaluation period of every six months so that it did not work "too well" and over heat the market. His foreclosure plan NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED in the first place. All it managed to do was slow the rate of foreclosure-those houses are now being foreclosed anyway, putting more housing stock onto an already glutted market.

As to the stimulous-if it had been well thought out, rather than thrown together, it might have worked.

IF all the funds had been targetted to interstate highway construction and bolstering the energy grid, it might have done some good. However, it was instead over-laden with pork, and is exacerbating,rather than helping, the problem. Read Newsweek this week, to see what I am talking about. They outline companies that got stim funds-and created a handful of jobs. As I recall,each of those jobs costs about $10million taxpayer dollars.

That is not to even mention the millioins of dollars sent to non-existent congressional districts. And,no Nash, it was not a clerical error-it was fraud. Fraud that is not even being investigated.

Obama is a failure at handling the economy due to his gross incompetence. He is a failure at foreign policy due to his utter inexperience, complicated by his gross ego. He is going to be remembered as the worst president since Jimmy Carter. He will, however, go Carter one better-he is destroying his party for generations.

Should have let Hillary get the nomination. She,after all, won the primaries. It took a lot of arm-twisting of special delegates and fraud at the caucuses to wrest the nomination from her.

Your party will regret it for generations.

Nashville:

I saw that this AM. No matter what the real numbers are the right is going to spin it anyway. As I mentioned before "figures do not lie BUT liars figure". They will find a way to spin it just like Boehner tried to spin the fact that the aid to states bill closes loop holes that paid companies to send jobs overseas. The goal to keep jobs here in the US. Joe put a different Republican spin on it.

You cannot make people behave morally and ethically. Either they door they do not.

Good morning no joe . . . the stimulus created MILLIONS of jobs . . . so you can stop carping about "what happened to the Recovery Summer" now! lol

The stimulus did not solve our problems . . . but it sure did help out a whole hell of alot. No doubt.

It is truly not shocking that folks without jobs or job security don't buy houses . . . and without all the predatory loans being given out like candy . . . it will take time for the housing market to recover.

That is not President Obama's fault, no matter how very bad you wish it were . . . thanks for sharing all of your ideas to help America though . . . a refreshing change coming from you! ;o)

The CBO can score anything any way it wants. The fact remains, we have well over 10% unemployment when you count the people that have just quit looking. The housing stimulus plan just put debt on the country and kicked the problem further down the road. The $26 billion to the states, half of it stolen from some future Food Stamps funding, caused zero teachers to be retained. And we have a government running $1.4 trillion deficits, and just what in the world are they spending it on?

So let the liberals cherry pick data from this report, then cherry pick the data from that report, and to any report they want to make up. It's really all they have. The fact remains the economy is poor at best, and the prospects for the future don't look that bright.

Funny how when the CBO scores favor the Republicans they think it is the best thing since sliced bread. When it favors the democrats it is a faulty costing method that is corrupt. What a bunch of hypocrites.

If Hillary had won the primaries, she would have been the nominee. Talk about revisionist history, that was only 2 years ago and already republicans are trying to tell democrats that candidate Obama did not win the nomination legitimately. Guess I am not surprised since republicans also claim he was born in Kenya and is a Muslim--attempts to delegitimize the Hawaiian born, Christian President elected by a huge majority of voters.

Nashville_fan: The stimulus did not solve our problems . . . but it sure did help out a whole hell of alot. No doubt.

The so-called stimulus. so-called because it didn't stimulate any job growth, was a bailout to the state governments. What it did was pay for government jobs in the states for a years time. Now that the economy is worse then it was in 2009 the states are in the same jam they were in last year, ie., a bloated budget with huge tax revenue short falls. Now the layoffs of state workers will start up because states must have a balanced budget, and most of them are so deep in the red ink that borrowing money is no longer an option.

So the Obama stimulus plan has failed. Like so many other things with Obama, he's just kicking the problems further down the road and adding trillions to the national debt while he does so. There has been no job stimulus, just the federal government balancing the state governments budgets for a year using deficit spending.

So let the liberals cherry pick data from this report, then cherry pick the data from that report, and to any report they want to make up. It's really all they have. The fact remains the economy is poor at best, and the prospects for the future don't look that bright.

*******************************************************************************

However, I would imagine the outlook would look much brighter if we were cherry picking data from the same reports that supported the effectiveness of conservative policies, right, Joanna?

Good morning JoAnna . . . CBO disagrees with you . . . and so do all the folks working today or having a safety net until they do! :o)

But if it makes you feel better to believe otherwise . . . fine with me!

Department of Defense, Department of Health and Human Services, Department of Transportation, Department of Veterans Affairs, Department of State and Other International Programs, Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Education, Department of Homeland Security, Department of Energy, Department of Agriculture, Department of Justice, National Aeronautics and Space Administration, Department of Commerce, Department of Labor, Department of the Treasury, Department of the Interior

If you eliminate all of these departments we would still have a deficit of $250 billion. And of the $1.2 trillion those departments cost more than half is “Defense”.

The Washington Post reports:

VINEYARD HAVEN, MASS. — For the second straight year, the first family has landed on this island of quaint seaside towns, second homes and working farms for a late-summer getaway.

One potential complication: Obama has spent far less time on vacation than his Republican predecessor, George W. Bush, had at this point in his presidency.

Veteran CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller, a fastidious keeper of presidential statistics, has kept count. By his tally, Obama has embarked on nine "vacations" since taking office, bringing his total days off to 48. Some of those trips lasted a day and some, like his Christmas holiday in Hawaii, more than a week.

By comparison, Bush had visited his ranch in Crawford, Tex., 14 times at this point in his administration and spent 115 days there. And yes, Democrats let him have it, too, complaining that he was a chronic vacationer.

The righties can spin anything any way they want.

The lefties can spin anything any way they want.

Don't drink the kool-aid. Just research the facts.

JoAnnaSmith1

The CBO can score anything any way it wants. The fact remains, we have well over 10% unemployment when you count the people that have just quit looking. The housing stimulus plan just put debt on the country and kicked the problem further down the road. The $26 billion to the states, half of it stolen from some future Food Stamps funding, caused zero teachers to be retained. And we have a government running $1.4 trillion deficits, and just what in the world are they spending it on?

So let the liberals cherry pick data from this report, then cherry pick the data from that report, and to any report they want to make up. It's really all they have. The fact remains the economy is poor at best, and the prospects for the future don't look that bright.

JoAnna, i hope you understand that democrats are listoning to what the republican have to say right now. why? because no matter what you, No Jo, farley or who ever are saying the fact still remain that we are in this mess because of the last administration!!! a republican administration that did not a thing right from 2001-08. i'm not going to go in to the sheer madness that was the Bush presidency.

You can talk bad about unions, teachers, immigration, islam, deficets, or what ever else is used as a smoke screen to deflect attention from the REAL problem, and that is the republican party had free reign over the country and a REAL mess was left behind. A real mess Joanna. did you personally cause this mess, No, as well as No Jo, farley or InTheMiddle. you all did not do a thing to get us in this, i have no dout that you have been hurt like, alot of Americans by the cowboy attitude.

so please remember as you give your talking points and shots at the president, that will not erase what happened during the last administration or make us forget what happened. Bohner yesterday called for the president to fire his economic advisers if that is what he suggest, well the economic advisers from the bush administration should be put in jail, what happened was criminal.

you said that liberal cherry pick data well the same can be said about the Conservatives, they cherry pick about the TARP but lets remember TARP was created by the bush administration. TARP that everybody here complains that this was a Obama creation but that not true. please go and sit down and look at where we were in 2000 to now 2010. be objective about the mistakes that were made from 2001 till 2010. i not saying Obama did not make mistakes, because he has, but if your so quick to point out Obama mistakes, then its only fair to point out Bush mistakes. and post them RIGHT HERE.

Keep posting your talking points, but history will prove you wrong for supporting the same people who got us in this mess.

The CBO also Estimates that the policies of the Obama ministration will Add 1 Trillion dollars of debt for the next 10 years...

Barry's own 2010 Budget shows that for 2010-15 the debt will be going up $5.8 Trillion. And that's guaranteed to be a lowball number.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals/

Table 1.1

so, Nash, I just read the report you are crowing about. Then, I did a little factchecking.

According to the BLS, close to three million jobs have been lost since March of 2009. So, how did the CBO, which also said that the stimulous increased growth by 4.5%-when it isn't anywhere near that-come up with those numbers?

Simple. The same way they came up with numbers showing that HCR would cut the deficit-although anyone with a functioning brain knows it won't-by evaluating ONLY the numbers it was given, without regard to any other numbers.

You doubt that this can be done? It is done all the time. Consider this: physicists in classrooms all over the country prove to their students, year after year, that bumblebees CANNOT fly. Any civil engineer in this country would be able to show you proof that, given the amount of land and food available, the Nile valley could not support the number of people needed to build the pyramids; moreover, the technology available at the time make it impossible that they could have been constructed.

These are not simply 'navel gazing' exercises-they are done to show students the danger of adhering too strictly to 'proofs' that have little or no relevance in the real world.

That is what the CBO has done. They scored the stimulous, ex post facto, and proved that , theoretically, it did something it DID NOT DO.

The fact that you somehow see this theory as disproving the facts is simply proof that if Obama told you that the sky was plaid, you'd believe it. Sad, really.

Jeff: JoAnna, i hope you understand that democrats are listoning to what the republican have to say right now. why? because no matter what you, No Jo, farley or who ever are saying the fact still remain that we are in this mess because of the last administration!!! a republican administration that did not a thing right from 2001-08. i'm not going to go in to the sheer madness that was the Bush presidency

Give it a rest Jeff. Except for the hard-boiled leftists, the Blame Bush routine some Democrats are trying again has gotten real old. It's ObamaTime now Jeff, and the country is suffering because of it. Jeff do I need to post all the wonderful quotes of Obama, Biden and their economic team have made over the last 19 months? You know, the ones where they have been telling us that the "Economy has turned the corner", "We're on the right track", "I (Obama) own the economy", on and on it goes.

Face facts Jeff, Obama and his crew don't have a clue.

JoAnnaSmith1

JoAnna i though you had a open mind but i see all you know how to do is open your month. i tried to have a goods debate with you but you are going back to your i hate the president talking points.

Ok let me tell you something my consertive Gril friend, this country is F**ked because people like you that are TOO stupid to realise what happened fromn 2001 till now.

i noticed you did not paste the part in my post about you having a open mind, and thinking, i guess you over looked that!!! why, to open your mind is like putting a quater in a dime slot

Lets see, John Mccain said in October of 08 that the fundimentals of our economy are strong.

Phill graham Said in august of 08 that the recission was in our minds and that we were weak.

Oha low and behold in October of 08 George bush call the senate banking head in the whitehose to tell him if we did not give the bank, a blank check because there were GOING to collaspe. these same bankers that enjoyed a hugh tax cut that the wasted like SH*t down a toilet.

Lets See george Bush pissed 700 billion away on Iraq.

Lets see he pissed another 1.2 trillion away with tax cuts for his rich buddys,

Lets see George Bush, a oil man as persident, gas prices to get at 4:50 a gallon, while the oil comapnieis said we are not making any more than normal, there enyoned record profits, in 06 the gas went back down and guess what they still has record profits. doesn't that seem strainge to you, but wait non of that mean any thing now that Obama is president.

Now in your closed mind these things mean nothen, but to real openned minded people these are real, real things that are going to have us F***ed for years, but to you a closed minded winch that all Obama fault.

Joanna i would love to meet you, take you to the mental ward and have you studyed because your closed mind needs to be given to science.

Jeff-1541632: Now in your closed mind these things mean nothen

How do you know you won a debate with a liberal? They start with the personal attacks.

Lets see, John Mccain said in October of 08 that the fundimentals of our economy are strong

Heck, Joe Biden said it yesterday. And in June when he said this is the "Recovery Summer", and last May when he said 500,000 jobs per month will be created, and last year when he said "The economy has turned the corner". Can you find any truth in those statements Jeff? Let me know if you do.

Jeff, you're obviously a big fan of super-sized deficits, high unemployment, and an economy heading for recession. Barack and Joe have been telling us for 19 months that "We're on the right track". Somehow they, and you, don't know exactly what track we should be on.

You have a nice day Jeff.

Gotta love all the desperate attempts to change the subject from the news that the stimulus worked! :o)

no joe . . . you are really playing the "bumblebees can't fly" card?

Priceless!

JoAnna.

Jeff, you're obviously a big fan of super-sized deficits, high unemployment, and an economy heading for recession. Barack and Joe have been telling us for 19 months that "We're on the right track". Somehow they, and you, don't know exactly what track we should be on.

Oha my God Joanna you need to take your memory pills, i know you don't follow history but its not the democrats that love big deficets its the republicans, remember reagan said deficets don't matter!!! girl please take your memory pills, i can see 10 years of your memory is missing.

lets see if i'm not mistaken a southern guy named Bill Clinton got the deficets under control, remember it was the reagan deficets that he said did not matter. bill clinton a democate. democrats get deficets under control just as republicans give us deficets.

no jo, no bo: According to the BLS, close to three million jobs have been lost since March of 2009. So, how did the CBO, which also said that the stimulous increased growth by 4.5%-when it isn't anywhere near that-come up with those numbers?

Simple. The CBO didn't count any lost jobs. The CBO scores what they are told to score, and in this case they were asked to score in a very narrow range. The question they were asked was what jobs did the so-called stimulus create, or save (like anyone knows what that means) jobs in the country. Listen, you throw a trillion dollars at something, and you will make an impact. And the impact was that bloated state bureaucracies got bailed out by the feds and got to keep their state government employees, for maybe another year or so, until the money ran out again. So rather then those jobs going away last year, they'll go away this year, unless Obama decides to deficit spend another trillion.

So in relative terms, the government did grow while the private sector jobs offset those gains to the tune of about an absolute loss of 3 million jobs.

No matter what the CBO says, or anyone else for that matter, unemployment is 10% and is going up, GDP is 1% and going down, and Obama continues to spend money.

jeff: lets see if i'm not mistaken a southern guy named Bill Clinton got the deficets under control, remember it was the reagan deficets that he said did not matter. bill clinton a democate. democrats get deficets under control just as republicans give us deficets

Jeff - what is the current fiscal year deficit being run by Obama and the Democrats? What are Obama and his economic team projecting in terms of deficits for the next 5 years? Compare those deficits to the ones run by the Republicans in the past. Which are greater?

You are working really hard today Joanna . . . still nothing you have said changes the fact of the original article. . . . sometimes you just have to accept that you were wrong. . . it happens to all of us . . . no shame in that! ;o)

Here is a handy deficit graph showing how President's Reagan, Bush, and Bush are responsible for our huge deficit, no matter how many times JoAnna lies about it! :o)

http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

(JoAnna ususually disappears rather than comment on this graph! lol)

53% of the vote is NOT a huge majority. I really wish you would tell it like it is instead of embellishing.

The CBO's figures can be interpreted to support any one of the politicians talking points.

Fact, is, we still have a @!$%#ty unemployment rate, home sales are STILL down (related), no one is buying anything(related), and no one is hiring. We are going deeper in debt, money gets allocated for certain projects and then siphoned off for pork. And you dems want us to keep doing it this way? You repubs want us to go back to the old way of doing things?

Get them all out. get some fresh eyes and minds in congress and the white house. Get some folks in there who have had successful businesses. Get some folks in there who will actually do what needs to be done to fix this country.

The current batch of the dems are exactly the same as the old batch of republicans. They only care about getting re-elected. And you keep praising them. Wake up people.

and Nashville has spoke and told you what the Facts are.. Nashville someone could give you a million dollars and next year you would be broke and asking the Govt to bail you out. .that is the Failed policy of Liberal Thinking...

Steve,

Does that mean that you don't like the CBO's findings?

It's their facts, not mine . . . hee hee hee.

The truth hurts I know, but you'll be better off in the long run if you start basing your decisions on truth and not fiction, don't ya think?

P.S. How do you know I don't have a million dollars now? lol

It's OK Nash, you can't help that the facts have a Liberal bias. Again. Still.

Maybe that's why there are none in the "rebuttals" posted above.

JoAnnasmith1

Jeff - what is the current fiscal year deficit being run by Obama and the Democrats? What are Obama and his economic team projecting in terms of deficits for the next 5 years? Compare those deficits to the ones run by the Republicans in the past. Which are greater?

Well if Obama lets the tax cuts expire his will be smaller.

Did you look at the graph Nashville fan left.

Nashville_fan: (JoAnna ususually disappears rather than comment on this graph! lol)

Try this one on for size NF: http://blog.heritage.org/2010/02/05/past-deficits-vs-obamas-deficits-in-pictures/

And for some odd reason, probably blindness in your right eye, you didn't notice on the graph you referenced that there was a red line going nearly straight up. That's Obama's deficits. Highest ever.

JoAnna,

You are sooooooooooo funnnnnnny! Seriously!

I have already seen the graph that you posted . . . and the deficits are going up . . . nobody is disputing that . . . the question is . . . why do we have a big a$$ deficit in the first place . . . and the answer is because Republican Presidents think that they can spend as much as they want on wars and defense and then not pay their taxes . . . that doesn't work! :o)

Now that everyone is unemployed, uninsured, and needing a safety net, these same phony "conservatives" who CREATED the deficit, wrecked the economy, and exported all the jobs, want everyone to starve and be homeless so we can "balance the budget" . . . except they wanna keep their tax cuts even though they have got more money than they can ever spend already . . . sad but true.

Tap dance away JoAnna . . . the stimulus worked and the deficit was created by Republican policies.

Period.

JoAnnaSmith1

as much as i don't trust the source you got it from, i must say Joanna the PROJECTED deficits are very high, now i said PROJECTED. if Obama lets the tax cut expire then those PROJECTED deficets will reflect in red come down to match the acual defiects.

thanks for that graph it matches the graph you ignored that nashville fan posted.

NF: Tap dance away JoAnna . . . the stimulus worked and the deficit was created by Republican policies.

I'm sure glad the stimulus worked. All those jobs being created, unemployment down to 4%. Oh, wait . . . .

And do you think BH Obama knows how to tap dance NF? I mean, he's going to need something to do after he's gone in 2013, just can't play golf all the time. Him and VP Joey B. could do USO shows.

Period.

The Smith woman wrote: "How do you know you won a debate with a liberal? They start with the personal attacks."

Now. Go back and read it again. And again and again if you have to. Notice anything peculiar about it?

Jeff..

and i project that after the Republicans take back congress and stop all the Spending bills laden with Pork that the Democrats are passing that the Deficts will come down. and i project that Obama will try and take credit for it..

Nashville Fan-

I think the Democrats should use your comments as a campaign slogan 24/7 because that sums it up quite nicely!

"Now that everyone is unemployed, uninsured, and needing a safety net, these same phony "conservatives" who CREATED the deficit, wrecked the economy, and exported all the jobs, want everyone to starve and be homeless so we can "balance the budget".

I would just add "so we can balance the budget and give our rich friends a tax cut"

Steve-505729

Jeff..

and i project that after the Republicans take back congress and stop all the Spending bills laden with Pork that the Democrats are passing that the Deficts will come down. and i project that Obama will try and take credit for it..

Just like when Obama let the tax cuts expire and the deficets come down i know the republican will take credit for that.

Jeff: Just like when Obama let the tax cuts expire and the deficets come down i know the republican will take credit for that.

You got a lot riding on those tax increases Jeffy. You do realize that if Obama, Pelosi, and Reid manage to exempt tax increases for those making less then $250K that the projected tax revenues are about $70 billion a year. Obama and his friends in Congress can spend that much in a couple of weeks. We just had a record level of deficit spending for one month in July with $168 billion dollars in deficit spending, again, for one MONTH. So taking the new tax revenue and subtracting it from the current deficit spending of about $1.4 trillion a year, that gives you a new deficit of $1.32 trillion a year. What do you think, should we schedule a parade when that happens? Happy days will be here again!

Jeff lets see all the things you blame Bush could not have been done without Congress . A ll the bills spending or in your words "pissing away" money was done with DEMOCRATIC help. They had a super majority since 2006 and still passed all the spending bill. THEY passed the BAILOUT bills. They spent 700 billion on IRAQ (in fact that is a fallacy as you have to deduct what the cost of the military was even if we were not at war)

McCain was right the FUNDIMENTALS of our economy were and are. What are they? CAPITOLISM they have and always will be what keeps America strong. Hard work.

At the same time as the banks were asking Bush for a bailout. The Democratic Congress came up with a $164 billion PORK bill which they held above Bush's head to pass the TARP. WHICH OBAMA AGREED WITH. FACTS JEFF

Lets see RICH BUDDIES. Like the Kennedys, Kerry, Buffett, Dodd, Pelosi, Reid, Frank, and Obama's good friends from Chicago. You act like Bush introduced and passed all the bills by him self > Go back and look at the votes. None were done with reconciliation. All were passed with a majority or better as needed. HELPED by the DEMOCRATS. Seems awful funny when 2 months into Bush's first term things started down hill with the economy( again check the facts the last year of Clinton's term the economy stared heading south) the .COM bubble it was no longer Clinton's fault. But 4 years for Congress and 19 months for Obama and you still blame Bush for it all.

No Jeff the country is F***ed because people like you want it to be a NANNY state like Italy or Greece, or maybe like California $700 million on a school and lay off how many teachers???See how great that is working out. Tell Obama and his bobble head that stands right behind him in every camara shot, Good Ole Joe. To keep spending, some more Govt. jobs. Or maybe a cash for old toilets, or take over some other private Co. They want to bailout the UNION pension funds to the tune of $34 billion. Whats next???

JoAnnaSmith1

Joanna I'm going to from now on use the great Ronold Reagan slogan, Deficets don't matter. it worked for him and the republicans 25 years ago, why can't we democrats use that now, or are you saying defiects are ok, only when a republican is in office ?

Nitemare2

Once again, i will quote Ronald Wilson Reagan, deficets don't matter. well your right Obama did vote to pass TARP but how did we get there?

2001-2006 congress, the senate, congress has a republican majorty, and a republican was in office. they did what tip Oneil did back when he and reagan faught over spending cuts, he let him have his way. well when bush came in to office the dem let him have his way.

DEFICETS DON'T MATTER.

DEFICETS DON'T MATTER.

If illinois can rename a express way after reagan then he must have been a great man,

he said and you repuiblican need to follow your hero, defiects don't matter!!!!

Keep repeating they let him have his way. aAnd if that be true then Don't blame Bush for the state of the economy. THEY LET HIM DO IT and never felt bad about it. Now does that sound like a stupid excuse or what.

You want another quote When Reagan was President we had Johnny Cash and Bob Hope now with Obama we have no cash and no hope.

How about with Obama we get trickel up poverty???

Nitemare2

Well you got me on that, but still deficets don't matter!!!!!

How about with Obama we get trickel up poverty???

that's better than voodo economics.

Deficits don't matter. like i said before, if it worked for Reagan it can work for Obama, unless deficits don't matter as long as your a Old White Republican.

Pat: A very creative post! I like it! My question is, why don't the conservatives have any integrity? They are hiding it if they do (have any). On second thought, I don't think they have any.

I agree, Pat--the GOP is bought and paid for by the wealthy in order to push their agenda--lower taxes, de-regulation, faux immigration reform (focus on "anchor babies" and let the cheap labor pool continue). It is a sad pattern of recent years--Bush I trashes the economy, Clinton cleans it up; Bush II trashes the economy, President Obama will do all the work to turn it around while being savaged by the GOP. Not content with eroding public confidence in the President by attacking his religion, citizenship and work ethic (to suggest he vacations more than George Bush is ridiculous but they do it), they have now moved on to direct (although inaccurate) attacks on his economic policies, without mentioning their obstructionism and lack of alternative plans.

So let me get this straight, Pat-

nothing Obama has done has improved the sitution-in fact, everything he has done has exacerbated the situation.

But-we should give him more time,because possibly,maybe, something he does might succeed?

I wouldn't keep a car mechanic with is track record. I sure as heck wouldn't keep a doctor with that track record.

His party will pay for his failures in November. Unfortunately, the COUNTRY will be paying for his failures for years.

Steeler Fan: It is sad isn't it? But the right have the media megaphones in this country and it's hard to wake people up. They're being exploited. So aren't Boehner and McConnell if you think about it. But they don't care, being the prostitutes that they are.

Ron, I couldn't get the words out of my head last night or this morning - Boehner and McConnell are just actors on a stage. It had the "it" factor for me so I ran with it this morning when I got to my desk. I don't know what to say or do other than keep pounding day after day after day hoping the people in Ohio will see Boehner for what he is. A sell out.

Pat, Boston:

Very well presented. That took some serious thought and I agree. We, the American people, are being sold out just like cattle to the power and money brokers to do with us pretty much what they want. At this rate we will have NO middle class, no rights or say in our future or the future of our chidren, no hope, no nothing. Just an agenda to do more for those that have at the sacrifice and expense of ourselves.

US Navy, better said than I. Will the country catch on before it's too late I wonder?

Last night my son came over and turned on the tv at 6:00, as I was in the kitchen making a cup of tea. The tv came on to MSNBC and Ed's show. And Ed was talking about Palin and Bachmann and Beck's rally in DC and when Ed finished, my son turned to me and said "Are you serious"? He hadn't heard about Palin's reload comments and such. He couldn't believe it, and not being particularly political, he had no idea how bad Palin or Beck really was. He never particularly liked either of them, but when Ed showed the clips of what they have said, my son just sat there staring at the tv in utter disbelief.

Bonehead's easy all they have to do is pay for his golf and he'll do anything they want him to.

no jo, no bo, nj

Uhhhhhhhhhhh....... hate to bring this back to Bush, but we are paying for his mistakes now, and Obama has been trying to get us out of it. The only way to make up for a lack of spending and deregulation is by spending and regulating. If something didn't work for 8 years, why do you want to go back to it? Common sense.

MO,

His golf AND his BOOZE,...

no joe, no bo, nj

So let me get this straight, Pat-

nothing Obama has done has improved the sitution-in fact, everything he has done has exacerbated the situation.

But-we should give him more time,because possibly,maybe, something he does might succeed?

I wouldn't keep car mechanic with is track record. I sure as heck wouldn't keep a doctor with that track record.

His party will pay for his failures in November. Unfortunately, the COUNTRY will be paying for his failures for years.

No Jo I will only say what i told JoAnna, i guess you enjoy defending the people who got us in this mess, is this right. because if it is not, i have not heard a single thing out of your over educated mouth that help explain why we are where we are at in this year 2010. i told her to sit down and look at how we got where we are today.

I'm not going to go in to the mistakes Bush made, but since you keep pointing out Obama mistakes, please use all those degrees you have on your wall and look at the ripple effect of the Bush presidency, if you say that Obama mistakes will be felt for years to some then you have just made the democrats argument, that we are and will be suffering from the Bush presidency for years to come. please admit that, show us that you are not as you seem, and that is a very tired frustrated lady that is so mad at the current president but she has over look the ripple effect from the last president.

i will give you a great example, when Reagan came in to office, we were dealing with high inflation and high interest rates for homes, that ripple effect from the carter administration was felt untill 1984 when rates finally started coming down and inflation went from a double dip to a trickle.

i will give you a example of the opposite, when Bush 43 came to office the economy was rolling, interest rates were low, we had a surplus and unemployment was at or below 4%, that ripple effect from the clinton administration was felt untill 2003, then unemployment started going back up and our debt was on the rise because the Bush administration reversed all that was gained during the Clinton years.

So Now No Jo as you said before, the ripple effect from the Obama administration will be felt for years, well we are in the years of the the ripple effect from the bush persidency. your smart enough to know that a 8 mile train can't stop on a dine because its time change train operators, that train is going to take 4 miles to stop, just like after carter, Bush 41 and now bush 43.

Fair No Jo, or am i wrong.

Why do you all keep knocking this man for his so called boozing? Seriously none of you have ever had a drink?

At least he didn't get drunk, drive his car off a bridge and leave his girlfriend to die while he ran home.....

Seriously you guys will do and say anything to attack someone you don't aggree with.

Jeff,

I figured out a while back that it is useless to try and engage no jo and JS1 in a debate, or even simple conversation. No jo may be educated but comprehension is not her strong suit and I suspect her degrees were from a blue light special. JS1? Well, that girl is just plain intellectually deficient.

Give it up, Jeff, you are trying to have an intellectual battle with two unarmed opponents.

Good post Nash. I agree good news doesn't sell as well and bad news. Seems like teabagger republicans have more time to watch TV than Liberals.

Nash, I wish it were true that narratives get discarded once they can no longer hurt the President, but that just isn't the case. We still have people claiming he's a Kenyan mole. Heck, we still have people claiming the Clintons murdered Vince Foster!

No, they just keep repeating the same lies and failed narratives, ignoring any positive news or facts to the contrary. The bag of deceit is overflowing.

The job losses never materialized because the moratorium was overturned. The President lost that battle which allowed many people to keep their jobs. Don't you understand that?

Or did you just read the headline and then post the article.

"Oil supply firms went to court to have the moratorium overturned, calling it illegal and warning that it would exacerbate the nation’s economic woes, lead to oil shortages and cause an exodus of drilling rigs from the gulf to other fields around the world. Two federal courts agreed."

You can't have job losses if the rigs are still operating...

Brutus CA
Oil supply firms went to court to have the moratorium overturned, calling it illegal and warning that it would exacerbate the nation’s economic woes, lead to oil shortages and cause an exodus of drilling rigs from the gulf to other fields around the world. Two federal courts agreed."
You can't have job losses if the rigs are still operating...

_____________________________________________________-------

You won’t need a job if the planet implodes either. Alternative energy is your hope; including a little brain power.

__________________________________________-

Hey Bev,
Hate to break it to you, but Teachers, Firefighters and Cops are all government employees. So in reality All that money went to save GOVERNMENT JOBS. I know that's a hard concept, but your fact check amounts to little more than BS.

Hater!! When your house catches on fire; there won’t be enough pails of water to put it out.

______________-_____________________________----------------

Brutus I read the article . . . looks like you didn't though . . . the court overturned it but it is being appealed and there is still no drilling now.

DARN those facts!!

Religious tolerance is not synonymous with defending the practices of any particular religion of which you are tolerant, Chuck. Either you are what you claim to be as a society - tolerant of the rights of people to worship any way they please - or you are not. If you are not and you are only paying lip service to that founding belief of the constitution, then that section of the document should be eliminated. Just as I think the Statue of Liberty should be torn down if what it says on the plaque is not what we stand for as a country anymore.

Your national identity cannot be built on lies and upon ideals that your citizenry quite apparently no longer supports.

This coming from a guy who knows a thing or two about pretzel logic.

Why not just say you hate Muslims instead of contorting your brain into something you consider a logical reason to block Park 51?

Jon Stewart came up with some advice that I think you need to follow. You see, the second largest shareholder in Newscorp is Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal. He's the same Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal who operates a charity called the Kingdom Foundation that has been accused to sponsoring terrorism and funding Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the head of the Cordoba Initiative that is planning on building Park 51.

Stewart "followed the money trail"...if you watch FOX News, you create advertising income that turns a profit that goes to shareholders like bin Talal who can then funnel the money to the "Ground Zero Mosque".

If you want to stop the "Ground Zero Mosque" it's simple...STOP WATCHING FOX NEWS!!!

We are a nation that was founded, in a big part, on the freedom of speech and religion (our 1st Amendment). This is why many people (including our ancestors)come to this country for the right and hope to practice their religious freedoms and to speak their ideas without fear. This is an all or none proposition. We do not (currently) have social / religious sectors or groups where some get the rights and others do not. There are some on the right that currently are trying their best to change this. We cannot let them. You are either for the first Amendment or against it. PERIOD. There is no middle ground on this one.

Chuck -

At last count, I believe there were like 7 or 8 million Muslims already living in the United States - legally. Born here. Paying taxes here. Attending mosques in places like Little Rock, AR and Anchorage, AK and Birmingham, AL and Minot, ND. So where are all the stonings and beheadings in those places?

While we're at it, I got one of those chain e-mails your side likes to circulate the other day, this one decrying the proposed community center in New York because "Moslems always build mosques on the sites of their most glorious victories just to spite their enemies". So, ummm, refresh my memory, will you? Which glorious victory did they win in Little Rock? Anchorage? Birmingham? Minot?

If anyone's thinking is stuck in the 13th century around here, it's yours.

P.S. - Do I get extra credit for answering the question without mentioning pedophile priests?

CU - I believe you are somewhat confused. We are not bending over backwards to defend Islam, but instead standing very tall and proud defending the constitution.

CU

Well, the thing is the Constitution protects their right to worship, wherever they please however they please(with in the law, sacrificing is totally unexceptable). So really these groups that are protesting it, have no legal right to say it cannot be there, they simply don't like it. They are now also saying that if the Muslims wanted to show some tolerance they should build it somewhere else.

The thing is, they people saying that should show some tolerance to where they want to build and worship, no matter how close or far it is from Ground Zero, they should be able to TOLERATE it, even if they don't like it.

When Osama bin Laden says, America is at war with muslims/islam, we make it seem like the truth when freedom of religion is denied to any group especially muslims.

It would seem counterproductive to hand him a talking point, and aid our sworn enemy, but around 65% of Americans are allright with it. People think about it, we immagrated here to flee religous persecution.

If we want to fight terrorism we will need people to penetrate these terrorist groups, they will most likly be people who look like, act like,and are muslims. Lets not do stupid again, and turn our best hope of defeating the terrorists against us, and towards them.

These people are American's too!! Stop the fearmongering!!

It's a machine I do not want to step into.

Wow Michael . . . thanks for sharing that . . . very insightful and I could not agree more.

We truly are at a crossroads in America where we ALL need to RE-EVALUATE what we believe to find out if it is actually TRUE or if it just makes us feel good.

Excellent and powerful post, Michael.

Outstanding Post Michael: Your insightful comments are much need in our discussion.

Since the workers have no capacity to negotiate for higher wages, these costs are ultimately controlled and the business becomes more competitive in the open market.

Why? Cannot the worker not increase his skill set or is he doomed to serfdom for eternity? Obviously history refutes your argument. This is a victims lament. Get off your butt and better yourself.

And your argument regarding health care assumes that your only option is what your employer offers. There is a market out there where you can pay for whatever service you can afford. The argument against government controlling health care is that they will control the supply, what procedures are offered, and they will destroy the private market. There is a difference.

Thankyou very much Michael. Carefull though if you are to strong in trying to make people think for themselves instead of following party dogma you could end up being villified as a radical. If you are succesfull it could lead to less screeching across party lines and more reaching. Imagine what it would be like if that were to happen in congress.

If we were to talk about the best of the left and the best of the right instead of yelling about the worst we just might be able to get back on track. Anybody ever hear of a guy by the name of Henry Clay?

These days it is "Blessed are the peacemakers" unless they are politicians. Or pundits. Or bloggers.

I'm floored! What a great post Michael! I'm going to copy it and paste it in Word so I can keep it forever. Permission granted?

Wow!

I wish I could have said this as well as you have!

This is the best arguement boiled down to a few paragraphs, just wow!

A remarkable post, which gives hope that thought is still alive despite rabid bipartisanism.

Finally:

Certainly. I have no problem with you keeping a copy of this post.

Alan:

I think the disconnect here occurs because you are referring to the worker and his potential to advance himself out of the situation I describe in the singular, while I am discussing them and the situation as it exists in the plural. In the situation that I describe, where the company controls the wage scale, the living arrangement, and the products that its employees consume, by and large, very few, if any, will have the resources and the capacity to remove themselves from the environment. Potentially their children could, although the vast majority of children who are born in such an environment also tend to die in such an environment.

However, to a certain extent, I am not talking about the plight of the worker at all. I am talking about corporate behavior when the corporation has free rein - ie capitalism in its purest form - to act in whatever way it wishes regardless of the the effects of its behavior on the surrounding community. In such an environment, the success or failure of individual, singular workers to escape the environment does not matter to the corporation, simply because there is a virtually neverending pool of potential replacement workers available to them to continue to behave in the same manner.

And again, I am not assigning a value judgment to this behavior, although most people, when confronted with it tend to do so. I am simply differentiating the core philosophy of this extreme - pure capitalism - from the political philosophy - conservatism - whose adherents tend to support the economic philosophy. And I am saying that when those adherents are confronted with the actual situation presented, they tend to react negatively to the specifics, while at the SAME time not seeming to understand that this situation and the behavior that precipitated it are nothing more than logical outcomes of the economic philosophy.

Yes, certain workers can increase their skill set if they are exceptionally bright and manage to find resources that the vast majority of their fellows lack, it is certainly possible that they can escape the situation. However those sorts of circumstances in communities that are essentially controlled by a single employer is exceedingly rare. There is a difference between a reasonable expectation that something could occur and using an unusual example to support a notion that is so far outside the norm that it defies expectation. When there was advancement within communities of this nature in the historical past, it generally came as a generational step following periods in which the power structure of the community was reapportioned by virtue of workers' revolts. Even then, the workers themselves generally ended up returning to the very same jobs and after a generation of better treatment and greater resources, their children were afforded greater opportunities down the road.

As far as your critique of my healthcare example is concerned, you object to its premise, but understand that your specific objection to the HCR is not reflective of everyone's objection to the HCR. I have heard many conservative speakers and hundreds of conservative posters object to it based on the notion that enacting HCR will take away their 'freedom' and rob them of their 'choice.' I was pointing out that they really don't have 'freedom' or 'choice' in the current environment, but that they do not make that distinction.

Aside from that, looking at it realistically offering one option that is so categorically better than the other option that anyone on the planet would choose the first is not really offering a 'choice.' It is offering an illusion of choice. If your choices are between paying $50 per paycheck for employer health coverage and paying $8000/year for private health coverage and the group coverage offered by the employer is both categorically better in terms of the amount of coverage AND empirically better in terms of price, then you haven't been offered a choice. What you have been offered is the illusion of choice in the trappings of the free market.

However, in either case, since the plans offered are basically identical to each and the plan itself has nothing to do with the quality of care you receive - which is wholly based on the competence or incompetence of your healthcare service provider - the citizen is, in short, basically receiving a large shove from the system in the direction of the method of coverage that the system favors, the employer-based health insurance method. In that prevailing method, there is no freedom and no choice. And even if the pricing scale between the two were identical, basically the only 'choice' you would have is a cheeseburger wrapped in red wax paper or a cheeseburger wrapped in blue wax paper. All things being equal, the government option would be a cheeseburger wrapped in green wax paper, but that option currently does not exist.

Assume that you actually have three options, right? You have the private health insurance option, which on average costs you 10% of your income. You have the employer based plan, which on average costs you 5% of your income. And theoretically, you have the government based plan, which on average costs you 3% of your income. Without quibbling about the numbers and whether this could be accomplished, my contention is that the conservative would STILL opt for option number two because of the emotional aversion he has for government run institution. And it would have nothing to do with the pragmatics of the situation that would dictate him to take option number three. He would take option number two and then subsequently engage in the sort of mental gymnastics that lead to the thinking that President Obama's policies are socialistic even though the net outcome of those policies was the inherent strengthening of the very industry that the conservatives claim that the policies were designed to attack.

I am not couching this discussion as a direct attack on conservatism even though I am directing the vast majority of the analysis toward the conservative frame of mind. As I stated earlier, liberals are just are vulnerable to this particular phenomenon. If the liberal views something to be 'bad,' he has the capacity to establish a false and completely counterintuitive causation for it. If confronted with something a leader does that is obviously wrong, the liberal is no less apt than the conservative to completely jump the shark to, 'well look at what your guy did over here.'

The issue is universal in that regard.

The problem arises when we become emotionally invested in our favored philosophies. However, all philosophies, when taken to their furthest extremes, have the capacity to lead to truly monstrous and evil situations. The end result of socialism taken to its furthest extremes is a totalitarian state in which no citizen has even the most basic individual freedoms we take for granted and which are taken away for what is perceived to be the 'good of the society as a whole.' The furthest extreme of democracy is a completely paralyzed state that can take no essential action on even the most extreme emergency issues because its citizens cannot reach a consensus opinion on the action to take. When political philosophies and economic philosophies become intertwined, it leads to truly strange and self-contradictory situations where the adherent is basically at war with himself regarding which particular section of his personal philosophy assumes primacy.

Which is more important? Representative government or financial freedom? There are times when those two notions conflict. Which is more important the well being of the citizenry as a whole or the well being of the individual? There are definitely times when those conflict as well. In the end, the best you can hope for is to understand the basic underpinnings of the philosophies you espouse and not assume the something is something that it is not.

The constitution is not about capitalism. Capitalism was in its nascent form at the time the constitution was written. It resembles nothing like what it is today. Property rights were about all that the founding fathers were concerned with, well, that and religious freedom, which is another can of worms entirely. However, John Adams and Ben Franklin weren't really so much about how corporations would behave toward their 50,000 employees, because in their day, corporations did not have 50,000 employees and how the local printer behaved toward his 6 employes was largely a matter between that printer and those 6 guys.

The constitution is about representative government and the basic rights that they perceived all men have. One of those rights is the pursuit of happiness, which is a purposefully vague concept that can encompass a wide umbrella of things. One of those things we've chosen to interpret it to mean is that a man has a right to better himself economically over time and we have chosen to call that concept the American Dream - something that has also morphed itself over time. But what it essentially means is that everyone here has the right to self-determination. What I don't understand is why so many people seem to object to the idea that if one entity - ie a company - opts to behave in such a way as to rob the ability for self-determination from entire communities of people - the government has a role in preventing that from occuring.

But once again, I think it all boils down to emotional investment into the philosophy. Capitalism without restraint dictates that your right to self-determination overrides the rights of other people to self-determination if removing their right to self-determination impedes upon your ability to be competitive. Capitalism demands competition and in competition, there really is only one winner. Everyone else loses. Anything that helps you win is a tool to be used. Tools are to be used in the most efficient way possible. People - especially workers - are essentially tools that are no more important than the machines in the factory. Once you develop an emotional investment to the tenets of that philosophy, it becomes easy to blame others for getting caught in the types I community traps I have described, even though the very nature of the competition in its most extreme form demands that at least SOME people have to be. It is only when faced with the living, pictorial evidence of the effects that it has on communities that conservatives - who are not, as a rule, largely evil - suddenly realize that something is wrong.

And at that point, they must find a resolution that does not threaten the underpinnings of their personal philosophy. Hence, the quickness to blame the ills of society on the government in general and government institutions in particular.

hey, Lyn? PPP Polling, a democratic organization which First Read will not recognize because it is an 'auto' poll, got the Florida Republican governor's primary EXACTLY RIGHT.

Quinnipiac and Mason Dixon were way,way off.

Think First Read will re-think their position? I don't. The three auto polls got NJ, Virginia,and Massachusetts right,too, and it wasn't even mentioned here. Nate Silver, at fivethirtyeight.com has some really interesting articles on this. If you''re interested, they are in the archives.

I used to enjoy Morning Joe but the last year it has become anything but enjoyable. My view is that the reason for the decline in content is Scarborough who interrupts and injects his ego into everything--he must always be right and have the last word. When he is gone, the conversation is much less toxic and more actual debate and quality discussion occurs. These days, I turn it on and if Joe is there--change channels. The other regulars like Mika, Mike used to argue with Joe but now they simply allow his view to stand. It has become too negative--there is enough grim reality in the world that starting the day off with negative nonsense and attacks is not the way I care to start my day.

Dottie:

They are a gaggle of jerks, are they not. I keep hoping they replace them with the Keystone Cops or maybe cartoons. Either one would be an improvement. This is a group of has beens that are trying to make themselves important (relevant) again, and they just are not.

Navy -

Hate to correct you, but according to the recently released Third Edition of the Revised Palin Standard Dictionary of the English Language, that would properly be referred to as a "cackle" of jerks. Just ask the author herself! :)

I used to watch the show as well--it was nice to start the morning with political talk--but I can't take it any more. Joe just talks over and bullies anyone who disagrees with him and the others get on my nerves. I don't need more stress in my life!

MSNBC is a sinking ship. Their shows have now audience. Their evening lineup in a joke and has virtually no market share. They just espouse out hateful commentary adn distorted facts. Eventually, Microsoft is going to wake up and pull out before they lose their entire investment in this joke of a network.

And your point is . . . what, Don?

Do away with the Federal Government??

This is the dumbest post of the day.

I would suggest you explore all the different things that the Federal Government does do and provide. I will agree that there is a lot of waste in this model, no doubt there, but to just shut the whole thing down is NOT a solution. Smaller and more efficient I will take. I kinda like to know we have a military to protect us for example.

Yeah, I'd love to see Alaska survive without the billions in federal money. Good luck with that.

Do away with the Federal Government, no.....but we can reduce the size of government and reduce the manner in which waste and corruption is ingrained in it today. Government officials that break the rules as they currently do - jail time with a loss of pension and benefits.

We do require a strong military - and a smarter group of military leaders devoid from the political arena that is necessary in the current military establishment. If you don't play the game, you are not promoted.

FDR policies kept the depression going? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that history probably isn't your strong suit, right?

hillary clinton endured the most 'smearing' by her own party...that's why i'm an independent now after voting democrat for 40 years.

is charles koch the anti-george soros?

Jillieji: I'll answer your question since it is obvious you won't read the article in The New Yorker. I wouldn't either if I was a teabagger and being made a complete fool out of by these billionaire zealots by protesting against my own best interests.

"Of course, Democrats give money, too. Their most prominent donor, the financier George Soros, runs a foundation, the Open Society Institute, that has spent as much as a hundred million dollars a year in America. Soros has also made generous private contributions to various Democratic campaigns, including Obama’s. But Michael Vachon, his spokesman, argued that Soros’s giving is transparent, and that “none of his contributions are in the service of his own economic interests.” The Kochs have given millions of dollars to nonprofit groups that criticize environmental regulation and support lower taxes for industry. Gus diZerega, the former friend, suggested that the Kochs’ youthful idealism about libertarianism had largely devolved into a rationale for corporate self-interest. He said of Charles, “Perhaps he has confused making money with freedom.”"

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=5#ixzz0xdM7tgoK

Braveheart50

Another good day for the Tea Party Patriots.

Pay attention democrats.....or, fire up your "coffee party", and see what happens.

Really, like most baggers you didn't check your facts. The Witch from Wasilla lost 10 of 13.

sexist comment.....bev

just giving my opinion.

Her endorsement is a non issue (as are many political endorsements). Do people really vote because someone else "endorses" them...are they sheep or what ?

Contrary to the football team approach of politics most people subscribe to. If we actually voted and had opinions based on issues alone, rather than picking sides in the great political tail gate parties we engaged in, we might get something of use accomplished.

Tea Party constituents apparently like imagery...tea party...partiots...face painting, cheer leaders ?? Looks just like dems and republicans to me. Same old rah rah, rallies...yadda yadda

And, I don't like our current admin...just don't want a different bunch of hot dog eating, funny hat wearing, face painters....we have already had that for several decades.

Beverly in Chicago

Braveheart50

Another good day for the Tea Party Patriots.

Pay attention democrats.....or, fire up your "coffee party", and see what happens.

Really, like most baggers you didn't check your facts. The Witch from Wasilla lost 10 of 13.

Who are these Slate guys to Fact-check (dispute) the highly respected ranter from Chi-Town?

"Sarah Palin has special medicine. That's about the only clear conclusion to be drawn from Tuesday's primary results. She backed five candidates in Arizona, Florida, and Alaska—and they all won."

http://www.slate.com/id/2265060/
One hint that you're really screwing up is when you are consistently bested by someone you consider to be an idiot...

Dow Falls Below 10,000 as Worries Escalate

Drop in Home Sales Renews Pricing Fears...

Hey dangerfield . . . good to see you around . . . sorry that sharing good news is such a sore spot for you . . . you'll get used to it! ;o)

Thanks?

Yes Nash, good news abounds. Everywhere I turn, it's one administration success after another. It's thrilling to watch the re-birth of American optimism...too bad my attempt at gentle satire was not appreciated.

I am headed back to the Justin Bieber site where things really get heated...

dangerfield,

Why so touchy this fine morning? . . . I thought my post was pretty humorous as well . . . guess not!

:(

I just don't understand why good news is so toxic for you . . . I mean the world is still going to hell in a handbasket, right? Cheer up.

Geez.

Great post. I also noticed Boehner slurred the President's name. Whenever I see or hear Boehner, I conclude he spends more time at the 19th hole than anywhere else.

jokes about sexual assault are not funny

Yeah, he has a great "bourban tan" doesn't he?

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

I wonder the same thing . . . interesting how "both sides do it" is the new "some say".

Three cheers JH! Oh so true--the GOP has monopolized crazy this year.

I hope the democrats "blow up" the Senate filibuster by changing the rules to allow actual debate and majority rule again. Senator Tom Harkin has a bill that allows for filibuster but each vote requires fewer for cloture. This allows debate but with each vote, fewer are required for cloture and the majority vote rules.

Great post, Steven.

The filibuster abuse is appalling and undermines democracy and the Constitution's majority rule. I had hoped with such a bad economy that both sides would work together to solve our problems but instead we watched from day one, the politics of NO on the part of the GOP--Party First, Defeat President Obama--the American people can fend for themselves, republican power is more important than the economy or the people.

The press also forgets to remind the U.S. public that just a few years ago, the Republicans hated filibusters.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/020909.html

Though seemingly forgotten by most TV talking heads, it was only three years ago, when the Republicans had control of both the White House and Congress – and "filibuster" was a dirty word.

It was usually coupled with "obstructionist" amid demands that any of George W. Bush's proposals deserved "an up-or-down vote."

Yet now, with the Democrats holding the White House and Congress, the Republicans and the Washington press corps have come to view the filibuster fondly, as a valued American tradition, a time-honored part of a healthy legislative process.

Today, it's seen as a good thing that Democrats must muster 60 votes in the Senate to pass almost anything.

When the TV pundits talk about Barack Obama's economic stimulus plan squeaking through the Senate, they're actually referring to a vote that might fall in the range of 60 or more yes votes to perhaps 38 no's, a three-touchdown "squeaker."

The only thing close about the vote is whether the package can overcome a Republican filibuster and get 60 votes for "cloture." To reach this super-majority, Democrats have been forced to accept a higher percentage of tax cuts, even if leading economists consider tax cuts one of the least effective ways of stimulating the moribund economy.

Yet, this anti-democratic fact about the GOP strategy – that it seeks to frustrate the will of the American majority, which rejected the Republicans and their policies in the last two U.S. elections – is rarely mentioned in the news.

Nor is the fact that Republicans railed against even a hint of a filibuster when the Democrats were in the minority just a few years ago.

Back then, when the Republicans controlled everything, the big story was how a threatened Democratic filibuster against, say, one of Bush's right-wing judicial nominations would be met by the Republican "nuclear option" – using a majority-vote on a rule change to eliminate the filibuster permanently.

For instance, in 2006, when Bush wanted to put Samuel Alito on the U.S. Supreme Court, the move amounted to a direct threat to the Republic. Alito was a staunch believer in the imperial presidency, a promoter of a "unitary executive" who would wield unlimited powers at a time of war – and the "war on terror" promised to be an endless war.

If confirmed, Alito would join three other justices – John Roberts, Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas – who shared his extreme views, and possibly another, Anthony Kennedy, who was considered only slightly more moderate.

In effect, the Alito nomination raised the specter of five right-wing justices effectively gutting the U.S. Constitution and its checks and balances in favor of Bush's personal rule.

The Republic in the Balance

With the future of the American Republic in the balance and Bush short of 60 votes in favor of Alito, a filibuster could have stopped this radical nomination in its tracks and could have forced Bush to select a less extreme nominee.

Many in the Democratic "base" urged Senate Democrats to use the filibuster at this critical moment – a time when Bush was viewing himself as a new-age monarch and his political aides were fantasizing about a "permanent Republican majority," transforming the United States into a virtual one-party state with the Democrats kept around as a cosmetic appendage.

As this drama played out, the Washington news media weighed in heavily against a Democratic filibuster, essentially repeating Republican talking points about the need to give the President's nominee an up-or-down vote and bemoaning the anti-democratic nature of the filibuster.

Republican leaders thundered that any use of the filibuster against Alito or other Bush judicial nominees would force them to go "nuclear" by outlawing filibusters forever. Then, the Republicans could ram through whomever – or whatever – they wanted.

Rather than call the Republicans' bluff, "moderate" Democratic senators joined a bipartisan group called the "Gang of 14," which agreed to forego filibusters except in "extraordinary circumstances." And despite the alarm of many Americans about Bush's moves to eradicate the Republic, this "gang" did not believe Alito's confirmation reached the "extraordinary" standard.

So, when a few Democratic senators led by Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts tried to mount a filibuster, the Senate Democratic leadership refused to put up a fight, even as their former standard bearer was mocked by Republicans as a "Swiss Miss" for first urging the filibuster while he was attending an economic conference in Davos, Switzerland.

Presidential spokesman Scott McClellan piled on Kerry at a White House press briefing. "I think even for a senator, it takes some pretty serious yodeling to call for a filibuster from a five-star ski resort in the Swiss Alps," McClellan laughed.

In support of his filibuster, Kerry could line up only 25 votes, while the Republicans amassed 72 votes for cloture – a dozen more than the 60 needed to shut off debate. Those votes included 19 Democrats.

On the final confirmation vote, however, Alito was approved by a much smaller margin, 58-42, meaning that he could have been kept off the Supreme Court if all those who considered him a poor choice had backed the filibuster.

[As for the fate of the Supreme Court, Justice Kennedy turned out to be less of an extremist than some Republicans had hoped. He joined with more moderate justices in key 5-to-4 opinions that rebuffed President Bush's assertions of unlimited powers.]

Reversing Majorities

Despite the timidity of Senate Democrats in the Alito battle, an energized Democratic "base" – joined by Republican constitutionalists – fought on against the "permanent-Republican-majority" dreams of Bush, Karl Rove and the neoconservatives. In November 2006, the Republicans were repudiated at the polls.

Suddenly in the congressional minority, the Republicans did a flip-flop on the filibuster, discovering the high principles behind the tactic. The GOP used the filibuster routinely in 2007 and 2008 to block Democratic initiatives, especially any challenges to Bush's expansive claims of executive authority.

Typical of the modern Washington press corps, its leading voices changed, too, joining the Republican chorus hailing the filibuster as an honored tradition of democracy and finding value in the need for the Democrats to muster 60 Senate votes to pass any significant bill.

Today, the press corps continues in that pattern, forgetting the GOP's earlier contempt for the filibuster and treating its use by the Republican minority against the stimulus bill as normal.

There are rarely any comments about obstructionism, nor are the Republicans compared to the Southern segregationists who famously used the filibuster to resist civil rights laws in the 1950s and 1960s.

Given this pass by the press, Republicans are making the filibuster their chief weapon in pressuring Obama and congressional Democratic to accept more of a Republican-style stimulus bill with less spending and more tax cuts, regardless of whether that represents the best hope for the U.S. economy.

But the stimulus battle is likely to be only the first taste of the GOP strategy to hobble the Obama presidency. The Republicans can be expected to use the filibuster again and again to prevent many of the social and economic changes that the American voters endorsed in November 2008, policies like national health insurance and spending on long-neglected domestic needs.

In this obstructionism, the Republicans appear to have a powerful ally in the Washington press corps that – with few exceptions – treats the GOP's promiscuous use of filibusters as some responsible application of a time-honored tradition. The press also forgets to remind the U.S. public that just a few years ago, the Republicans hated filibusters.

Steven--I had similar thoughts in 2008 and hoped the parties would focus on economic recovery. My husband said--just watch--the Republicans will savage President Obama for 4 years while he fixes the economy and deals with the wars and world opinion. Well, my husband was right--that is what we have had to watch and it is so sad to watch people put themselves ahead of their country.

Steeler Fan-380417

Your husband was right. The President has been savaged by the right but to my amazement he has also been attacked by the left!

The right avers that he is doing too much spending and the left whines that he is nto doing enough! Imagine being in that predicament whre you just can't please anybody.

I happen to think the President is doing a good job. Not great. But I think back to how ugly things were on January 20, 2009 and I'm grateful for his leadership after that feckless individual known as "W" ran amouk for 8 years being a frat boy. The repulicans keep talking about how we need to stop blaming everything on Bush. Well they haven't provided anyone else to blame so it gets to be Bush.They can't seriously be suggesting that we blame all this broken sh!t on the President.

They act like all this sh!t broke on 01/20/2009. Not! It was broken when Obama moved into 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and he has spent the last 20 months tyring to fix it with no help from Boehner and Company and these idiots talk about "time for grown ups!

Puleeze!

Baaaaa! Baaaaaa! Baaaaaa!

:o)

The Tea PArty (and polls show this) is made up of far right Republicans. These are the same Archie Bunker, McCarthyite, John Birch Society, Ross Perot, quasi-Libertarian people who have always been around, and always been angry. The only thing "new" is that they kept their mouths shut while George W Bush took a surplus and turned it into a deficit.

I am sort of confused.

We are stupid because we are crying wolf when there are really wolves out there ready to come and kill us on November 2nd?

It was going so well too. All the way up to the point where you couldn't decide whether you guys were really wolves or not. Almost had me convinced I was nothing more than a worthless sheeple person.

Frank: Your two cents is worth a dollar in my book. With the Republicans moving further and further to the right...does leave a vacuum. I'm a Charlie Crist guy and hope Rubio comes in last. But I don't think the Tea Partiers will learn much if that happens. They will likely go on and undercut moderate Republicans. I'm thinking they will undercut Romney in 2012 also. Republican politics is...bitter.

I can appreciate that you are a moderate Republican and I respect you for that. So help me out. What do moderates think when they see the right wing put party first and country second? I am curious what your take is on that.

Grimey, Consider this my invitation to enroll as a Democrat. We truly have a big tent. You could be a conservative Democrat, if you want, that's OK. Come aboard!

Frank, I thought about you when I saw that McCollum lost. It does appear that in certain parts of the country the republican party is moving far right; it may work in the short term but Americans left and right are center left and center right. The Scott win has me wondering why voters would choose someone whose health care facility, under his watch, paid the highest fraud settlement ever. How could voters ignore that?

Grimey--to make a positive spin, all the ad money will be good for the Florida economy! And you won't have to watch commercials for the "Hover Round" (that song is stuck in my head). Seriously, it is always difficult to watch the extremes on either side pull the party away from the center, which is where I think most people truly want the government to be.

I think you are right--sadly, it is easy to run against something and stir up people's anger & insecurity, especially in these difficult economic times. I am seeing it in the Pa. Senate race--Sestak is finally up with ads and Toomey has been running his, but both are attacks on the other. Sestak is called the puppet of Nancy Pelosi and Toomey is the pupper of Wall Street (he is quoted as favoriting derivatives). So I guess it is the battle of the puppets!

Amy B., why would anyone wish to become a member of the Spending Party?

Steeler Fan -

This may be splitting hairs, but those anti-Toomey ads are sponsored by the Democratic National Senate Committee - I haven't seen any actual Sestak ads yet (as in "I'm Joe Sestak and I approved this message". I'm hoping he's got another winner up his sleeve like he used against Specter, where he won't have to say anything negative about Toomey, he can just let the guy hang himself. I know - wishful thinking, huh?

Hmmmm . . . did you have something to say . . . if so, what is it? :o)

A refreshing voice of truth from.....Vermont?

Well said.

Baaaaa! Baaaaa! Baaaaa! Go away bigots!

"We want our unfunded wars!" WAAAAAAAH!

"I don't WAAAAANT to pay my TAAAAXXXXEEESSS!" WAAAAAAH!

"Sick people don't have a RIIIIIIIGGGGHHHHT to healthcare!" WAAAAAAAH!

"We want our COOOOUUUNNNNTTTTRRRRYYYYY BAAAAAACCCK! WAAAAAAAH!

Oh yeah . . . I see what you mean . . . conservatives are the "adults" in any politcal discussion.

My bad!

ROTFLMAO!

Wait . . . I forgot one other conservative "adult" moment:

"Mommy, I don't like the SCAWY MUSWIMS! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!"

Very mature.

Your post mirrors your sarcasm.....LOL

Got your free stuff yet?

"So all you left leaning, libbys out there this morning that are soooo upset to see the Tea Bag party gaining seats"

I'm not upset. They aren't gaining seats, they are winning Republican primaries. Come November, the sensible middle will not vote for dumb-as-dirt Sarah Palin candidates. I have a Libertarian brother, but he is the only one out of four who came out strange. I love my brother, and am entertained by his colorful ideas, but the majority of people in my family, as the majority in the country, are moderates, not whack jobs.

Vitriol? Where--didn't see any from the left. When is it vitriolic to declare the stimulus worked. Moody's Analytics is neither republican or democrat--they determined the stimulus worked, liberals just point out the fact that it has; republicans on the other hand ignore pesky details like facts because it doesn't suit their ideological beliefs. Condolences to you and those like you who have economic amnesia and prefer denial over facts.

Nashville--I love the Republican version of being the adults in the room. I wouldn't expect Boehner to do anything other than criticize the President but seriously--saying he and his team weren't acting like adults? After George Bush was voted the man people would most like to have a beer with?

Dan, and the left

"Mommy when do I get my stimulus check?"

"How come Daddy still doesn't have a job?"

"I thought Obama said Daddy was going to have a green job?"

"Why are the bad men taking our house when the president said we would help us keep it?"

"Why does Daddy keep saying Obama lied?"

Gary . . . those are pretty good . . . how about these?:

"Mommy, I thought the tax cuts were gonna create jobs?"

"Why did the rich man steal our money mommy?"

"Why did they drop our health insurance coverage when we needed it the most Dad?"

Nashville , why are some Democrats in office now proposing to extend the Bush tax cuts, and why are some even saying ALL of the tax cuts, including the cuts to the top 2 % as a way to prevent the economy from sinking further?

I dunno Gary, maybe you should ask them . . . seems like the economy sank pretty darn far and the deficit ballooned pretty darn high with those tax cuts in place . . . so how will they magically now begin to solve the problem . . . voodoo thinking to go with the voodoo economics I guess.

Nashville_fan:

Gary . . . those are pretty good . . . how about these?:

"Mommy, I thought the tax cuts were gonna create jobs?"

Oh, those tax cuts weren't supposed to create jobs NF, they we just supposed to save jobs. And they saved millions of jobs, just like the Obama stimulus did!

Gary,

This is the way President Bush left the country . . . we are supposed to forget that?

Gary,

I hear you loud and clear.

What are your ideas, the Republicans solutions?

Crickets !!

Dennis, we could do what some Democrats are now calling for, to extend ALL of the Bush tax cuts. That would be a good start. But, since it goes against the philosophy of the left, which is "I will tax you more so you will have more money to spend " it probably is not going to happen.

My leader is doing great! Maine received a 20 million dollar federal grant to develop off shore wind turbine technology. We're finally moving to get off foreign oil and develop a new manufacturing industry. I am very happy with this administration. Finally! We're moving forward.

I hear you loud and clear.

What are your ideas, the Republicans solutions?

Crickets !!

Ever consider the possibility that there is no government solution? You can't fight the business cycle.

Two points. The ARRA is now projected to cost over $1T. The tax cuts if allowed to expire for the top 2% will save around $860B. If allowed to expire for everyone it will reduce the deficit by an additional $3.1T. Most economists accept that deficit spending now lowers growth in the future as you have to pay interest on the borrowed money and it creates competition for the capitol.

So here's a solution. Stop any further spending on ARRA and let all the tax cuts expire. Take the medicine and we'll be stronger for it in the future.

Nashville, are you like most on the left ,suffering rom selective amnesia? You don't remember, Fannie, Freddie, sub prime, Chris Dodd, Barney Franks? Any of that ring a bell?

Amy B, GE imports wind turbines manufactured in China. The next largest producer of windturbines, Spain, which dumped a lot of money into going green until they realized it was a money losing position, so they backed away from it. We're catching the green wave about 10 years after others tried it. Gut is sounds good.

Gary,

I remember everything . . . still don't see what point you are making though.

Alan,

If you see no role for government in our society, and the private sector has proven to be abysmal at regulating itself, what is your vision for the future then?

Alan,

If it is just a “business cycle” then why doesn’t the GOP come out and say that? Just say there is not a fix ... it will fix itself.

I see a role for government but they, and their employees, should be subjected to the same environment as the rest of us. Here in NJ employment for teachers has risen as the number of kids have fallen. Now this may be OK in a growing economy when we can afford more, but when we have to cut back they should be in the same boat. If you look round the world countries have the government they can afford. Some places cannot afford as many teachers and cops as they would like. We are paying for ours by borrowing. It is not sustainable. The bill is due and the piper has to be paid. I don't agree with many of the positions Governor Christie holds, I'm pretty liberal on social issues, but I understand that social services are paid for by the private sector. If the private sector is hurting then social services will also be affected. He talks to us as adults and explains his choices.

Here is the absurd end point of both parties arguments. If we reduce taxes to 1% then revenues will increase. On the other hand if we increase government employment then the economy will grow and we can have more government employees.

The real argument is where the balance is.

BTW Where did I say there was no role for government? I have always advocated that there is a role for good government. To that end I would reduce employment in government but compete with the private sector for the best talent.

Gary: Dennis, we could do what some Democrats are now calling for, to extend ALL of the Bush tax cuts. That would be a good start. But, since it goes against the philosophy of the left, which is "I will tax you more so you will have more money to spend " it probably is not going to happen.

That would be a sight, Nancy Pelosi front and center on the House floor fighting for the extension of the Bush Tax Cuts. Sure, that will happen.

f it is just a “business cycle” then why doesn’t the GOP come out and say that? Just say there is not a fix ... it will fix itself.

Dunno....you would have to ask a member of the GOP

Alan,

I believe you make a couple good points about Teachers, Police and in fact all services.

I think some of the problem comes from ownership issues. Cities have grown outward with increased suburban cities. This makes the consolidation of services more difficult.

If you eliminate all the suburban cities, townships, etc. boundaries and looked at how to best server the population at the least cost there would be great savings. But too many of us want to claim that our city can take care of itself or are they afraid to share schools and services with their neighbors a block away?

If it is simply a business cycle then why are you trying to meddle with it. When has government intervention and spending ever solved our economic problems. All it does is put off the inevitable and draws out a recession. For the government to spend mass amounts of money, they have to either borrow it or take it from people. Does taking money from the people you want to hire people make them more able to hire? If 95% of American people think the Government is wasting money massively, why would we think giving the politicians more money is a good idea. The Democratic answer to this is "How are we going to pay for it?" You aren't paying for it now. Everytime we give them more, they just spend more. I may listen to that argument if they were going to put the new taxes to retiring the deficit. But no Democrat will go on the record with that promise. If we give them $500 billion more per year, I guarantee you they will spend $700 billion more. Don't talk to me about more taxes until you stop the overspending. You guys are like the 400 lbs man who orders 3 whoppers and 4 orders of fries then washes it down with a diet coke and says he is doing better. STOP ALL THE WASTFUL SPENDING, PERIOD!! That is the No. 1 point the Republicans and American people are saying. You are spending our children into oblivion. Their money will be worth nothing. If the Democrats won't listen, maybe after November they will. This goes for any Republican who goes along with the pork barrel earmarks!!

Ray W.: If it is simply a business cycle then why are you trying to meddle with it?

Recall the words of Obama's Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel: "You don't ever want a crisis go to waste". So Obama borrowed a few trillion and paid off his friends in the unions and the government workers with it. And it has the added advantage of really shoring up that vote around election time.