Another day and still no investigation from the MSM about the $885,000 foreign dollars that have been funneled to the US Chamber of Commerce to influence American elections!

That’s okay guys… I’ll go ahead and continue to follow this very REAL threat to the fabric of our Democracy.

Now, the Chamber is peddling a new spin. Yesterday, the Chamber’s Tom Collamore alleged that the Chamber’s foreign Business Councils are run as “independent organizations.” Repeating that myth today on hate-talker Glenn Beck’s program, Chamber lobbyist Bruce Josten claimed that the Chamber’s foreign Business Council fundraising programs are “completely unaffiliated with us.” However, the Chamber’s own website refutes Josten’s claim:

– The Chamber’s U.S.-Bahrain Business Council states that it is “under the administrative aegis of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and is intended to operate as a tax exempt business pursuant to Section 501(c)(6).” Similar language applies to the other Business Councils.

– The Business Councils are hosted on the U.S. Chamber’s website domain, and the Chamber Business Councils highlighted by ThinkProgress are all staffed by U.S. Chamber of Commerce employees.

– All of the Chamber Business Council fundraising applications highlighted by ThinkProgress direct applicants, including foreign corporations, to make their checks out to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, with related documents specifying its general 501(c)(6).

– Promotions to join the Chamber have included promises that foreign firms obtain “access to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and everything that it does” as well as pledges to help the foreign firms promote free trade policies in America. Chamber staffers from the Chamber’s Business Councils have claimed they help their foreign (and domestic) members wage a “two-front battle to knock down trade barriers abroad and keep our markets open at home.” Currently, the Chamber has attacked Democratic lawmakers for resisting a free trade deal with Korea.

The Chamber could have asked its foreign members and other foreign businesses to deposit their contributions in the Chamber’s Center for International Private Enterprise, an international Chamber-run 501(c)(3) nonprofit that does not run ads or any other type of political expenditure. Instead, ThinkProgress revealed that the Chamber had asked foreign businesses to donate to the Chamber’s 501(c)(6), a tax identity allowed to run unlimited political attack ads.

On top of the Chamber’s latest deception about its foreign fundraising program, the Chamber has little credibility. The Chamber illegally moved money from AIG’s tax exempt foundation to fund its attack ads in 2004. The Chamber also claims its current attack ad campaign is about “issues.” But the Chamber begged President Obama to pass the stimulus (as long as he stripped out tough “buy-American” provisions), and is now running attack ads against Democrats for voting for the stimulus. Many of the ads the Chamber is currently running are filled with misinformation and flat out lies. In fact, some responsible local television stations have even refused to run some of the Chamber’s partisan attack ads. On Tuesday, appearing on Fox News, Josten claimed that only 60 multinational companies are members of the Chamber, and it receives only $100,000 from its foreign affiliations. However, ThinkProgress blew this claim out of the water with proof that the Chamber is accepting at least $885,000 in direct donations from over 80 other foreign firms (in addition to the multinational members of the Chamber like BP, Siemens, and Shell Oil).

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/14/chamber-lie-members/

Couple of questions concerning this…

First – If they are in fact innocent of what they’ve been accused of then WHY are they refusing to refute the claim via an alternative media outlet besides FOX News?

Second – What ‘bang for their BUCK’ have these foreign donors been promised? I mean, are you REALLY naïve enough to believe they are doing this for NOTHING in return?

You all can keep worrying about comments about shovel ready jobs and boxers or briefs… lol And I’ll continue to ask the TOUGH questions…

Morning Ron. Happy Friday.

I have been writing about the US Chamber of Commerce and the impact of the Citizens United decision by SCOTUS on our country since ThinkProgress broke the story last Wednesday. Today I have copied some excerpts from various sites (as noted below). I strongly suggest your read the articles in their entirety as they are on the appropriate web sites. My comments appear below the excerpts.

“As ThinkProgress previously noted, the Chamber has repeatedly sent out issue alerts attacking Democratic efforts to encourage businesses to hire locally rather than outsource to foreign counties. The Chamber has also bitterly fought Democrats for opposing unfettered free trade deals. The Chamber’s anti-American jobs agenda serves not only the profit-seeking of right-wing corporate executives in the United States, but also works to send jobs overseas to the following outsourcing companies, who are some of the dozens of foreign corporations that pay member dues to the Chamber of Commerce’s 501c(6) account, which is used to fund its political ads”:

– “KPIT Cummins, Pune, India (at least $7,500 in annual member dues): “Strategic global networking, together with industry-proven practices & processes, give KPIT Cummins a cutting edge in the realm of outsourcing.”

– “Patni Americas, Mumbai, India ($15,000): “Patni, the world leader in IT outsourcing and business process outsourcing provides offshore software development, global sourcing, custom software development, and a vast array of product engineering and IT services to companies worldwide.”

– “NIIT Technologies, Delhi, India ($15,000): “[L]eadership in the area of outsourcing.”

– “QuEST Global, Singapore ($7,500): “QuEST is a leader in the engineering services outsourcing (ESO) space.”

– “Rolta, Mumbai, India ($7,500): “Rolta’s global footprint and track record along with its capable off-shoring model gives it a unique positioning in this large market.”

– “SKP Crossborder Consulting, Mumbai, India ($7,500): “SKP’s core outsourcing practice is managed out of a fully equipped, spacious premises based in Pune with access to facilities in Mumbai, Hyderabad, Delhi and Bangalore.”

– “Wipro, Bangalore, India ($15,000): “India’s biggest destination for U.S. offshoring.”

“In its “American Free Enterprise” campaign, the Chamber says that there is no “greater or more important” policy challenge than creating the 20 million jobs needed in the next decade to replace the jobs lost in the current recession and to meet the needs of America’s growing workforce.” Perhaps the Chamber should actually start working toward that goal of creating jobs in America, instead of promoting the offshoring agenda of its foreign sponsors”.

Comment: Note how the US Chamber of Commerce is presenting these companies to their US affiliates promoting the farming of jobs from American Citizens to other countries. What happened to the idea of paying Americans First?? What happened to the concept of “Made in America”? The CoC is deliberately promoting the out-sourcing of jobs overseas. According to a very recent report by Campaign Money Watch they found that 1.4 Million Jobs in 9 states where the US CoC is actively promoting the out-sourcing of jobs overseas were LOST. Many of those jobs still exist, they just are in India, China, or some other country. Last night on MSNBC, Rachael Maddow had a piece on this that gave even more specifics pointing out that many job loses were merely famed out to overseas companies. I suggest you go to MSNBC/TV and watch the full comment. With that being said, note there are two versions of the Chamber of Commerce. The US Chamber of Commerce (what we are talking about now) and your local chambers that are comprised of mostly what we call Small Businesses. Do not confuse the two as they do have very different agenda’s. Glenn Beck did yesterday in his repugnant presentation and $10,000.00 donation (big deal, he makes over 30 Million a year). He claimed that the US Chamber of Commerce is comprised of mostly Small Businesses, it is not.

Also From ThinkProgress

“Last week, a ThinkProgress investigation revealed that the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has been using foreign money to fund its partisan attack ads this election. The very same day, the Chamber endorsed Bob Gibbs (R) in his campaign against Rep. Zack Space (D) in Ohio’s 18th congressional district. Gibbs said it was “an honor” to have the group’s support. In the nine days since, the Chamber has already pumped nearly $30,000 into the race”.

“Last night, the topic of anonymous donors to outside groups came up in a debate between Gibbs and Space. ThinkProgress caught up with Gibbs afterward to get his thoughts. He noted that organizations are required by law to segregate their foreign and domestic money and said the Chamber “absolutely” has a firewall in place. We pressed him on whether he just trusts them to enforce their own secret system. Gibbs conceded that he “wouldn’t have a problem with the Federal Election Commission having the ability…to go in and audit them and make sure that they had the firewall.” However, he stopped short of calling for groups like the Chamber to disclose their donors to the public”:

Comment: Bought and Paid for by the US CoC. There is no firewall that the CoC has disclosed to date. ALL the money is going into the same 501 [c][6] account used for all “Attack Ads”. The reason for this is that now under the SCOTUS ruling not only can they give unlimited money they also do not have to tell the American people who these people are. And this is the problem, the lack of disclosure as to who is buying America. A few days ago a poll showed 47% of the people would NOT vote for a candidate if they new they took “special interest” money, only 10% would. Last night it was reported that 56% now would not vote for a candidate taking these monies and only 9% would. The American People see this for what it is, a violation of the American People for political (GREED) gains and NOT anything to do with helping the American People at all. Hypocrisy and lies continue.

Excerpts for Chuck Todd Interview with Josten:

TODD: “Are you guys eventually going to disclose”?

JOSTEN: “No! […]”

TODD: “So your donors are afraid of a public backlash”?

JOSTEN: “Absolutely. […] Corporations, as I said, have employees, vendors, suppliers, and shareholders of all political stripes. They’re not trying to alienate anybody. They’re looking for representative organizations, such as mine and thousands of others, to be an express organization to advocate for them on their behalf”.

TODD: “It’s kind of a depressing outlook, the fact that we think that being public about where you stand on an issue, you don’t want to go public because of — you just fear some sort of potentially negative retribution.

“Corporations, I think, sit in a very different space here than individuals,” Josten explained, as a reason for why corporations shouldn’t have to disclose. (But of course, Josten is all to pleased to support the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision establishing corporate personhood”.)

“So there you have it. The Chamber believes that while it is engaged in trying to influence the outcome of elections, it should not be held accountable to the public. And therefore, the Chamber claims it doesn’t have to abide by the rules that apply to other organizations that run political ads on television”.

“The Chamber has admitted to taking foreign funds for the same 501(c)(6) account they use for attack ads, and ThinkProgress caught them collecting $885,000 from over 80 foreign companies by investigating the Chamber’s own fundraising documents. Normally, organizations take international funds through a 501(c)(3), which is prohibited from political activity. However, what the Chamber is doing, fundraising from foreign corporations and asking them to deposit the money in their 501(c)(6) — an undisclosed, unlimited vehicle for their attack ads — is unprecedented”.

Comment: This country is being sold out by politicians for Greed and Power. We are becoming a nation of those that have and those that do not. The handwriting is on the wall and we better start taking notice. As mentioned above, this is an unprecedented time in American Politics and there is nothing to compare it to. This whole issue could go away if these “Special Interest” groups would identify who they are representing and what their contributions are. Without this information we are blind. We have no idea what our elected representatives really represent. We all know that what they say to win an election is not always what they do after elected. Sometimes they outright lie and others, they are just naïve. These special interest groups are not going to come forth with the answers. It is up to us, the American People, to demand to know ho is doing what to or country. I do not like the idea that India, China, Egypt etc., may be dictating what I can do, say or think through our political mouth pieces. It is becoming more apparent to me every day that the Republican Party is on a mission to destroy the Middle Class. They are opposed to Social Security, Medicare, Veteran’s Benefits, Unemployment Benefits, Improving Education, Science, Green jobs, Financial and Health Care Reform, creating Jobs here in America and the list just goes on and on. If it helps the Middle Class and Small Businesses, they will oppose it. If President Obama proposes any change, they will oppose it. We are being bought and sold just like cattle for the slaughter (both republicans and democrats alike) and there is nothing we can do about it unless we get off our butts and vote.

The current Republican Party stands for Wall Street, Big Business, Outsourcing of Jobs to Foreign Countries, and the richest 2% of the people. They are not happy with what they have, they want an even bigger piece of the pie at our expense. We should be asking what are you going to do to create jobs here not there, how are you going to reduce the deficit, what are you going to do to improve education (we used to be #1 in math and science – now there are 20+ countries ahead of us), what about our crumbling infrastructure, what about transparency (full disclosure), what is you solution for Health Care and Financial Reform, what are you going to do for our Veterans? If these people cannot or will not provide answers to these basic questions then why are you voting for them? Ask yourself what are they hiding, what is it that they do not want me to know.

Good Morning Feisty and Navy:

As Reagan said, "There you go again." talking about things the conservativies want to hide: The Chamber of Commerce laundering foreign money. Happy Friday to you both.

Over 450,000 jobs lost per week since july, thats over 5 million jobs lost by this Administration and the Democrats just in 3 months.. Nice try but the American people are tired of the Democrats lies and Smear tactics

you provide no Facts only Attack opinions..

Continue flagellating the deceased equine, by all means. It obviously resonates with you.

It does not resonate with the electorate, who are more concerned about the economy, the federal deficit, ( particularly in light of Obama's admission that there is no such thing as a shovel ready job, so almost a trillion dollars was wasted on a fantasy), and the HCR fiasco.

Did you happen to hear that a federal judge called the government's argument for the mandate an "Alice in Wonderland" argument?

Or that Obama is appealing a federal court decision overturning DADT?

Of course not. You are too concerned promulgating worn out Alinsky diversion talking points.

Epc fail. Like Obama's presidency.

....and from the NY Times (last time I looked part of the MSM).

"The issue of the chamber’s funding first gained notice this week when ThinkProgress, a blog affiliated with the Center for American Progress, an influential liberal advocacy group, posted a lengthy piece with the headline “Exclusive: Foreign-Funded ‘U.S.’ Chamber of Commerce Running Partisan Attack Ads.”

The piece detailed the chamber’s overseas memberships, but it provided no evidence that the money generated overseas had been used in United States campaigns. Still, liberal groups like MoveOn.org pounced on the allegations, resulting in protests at the chamber’s offices, a demand for a federal investigation by Senator Al Franken, Democrat of Minnesota, and ultimately the remarks by Mr. Obama himself."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/us/politics/09donate.html?_r=1&src=tp&scp=4&sq=chamber%20of%20commerce&st=cse

No evidence Ron, Navy. You say you want facts but produce only opinion pieces. BTW from the same article

"Organizations from both ends of the political spectrum, from liberal ones like the A.F.L.-C.I.O. and the Sierra Club to conservative groups like the National Rifle Association, have international affiliations and get money from foreign entities while at the same time pushing political causes in the United States."

So I presume you would also demand that the AFL-CIO prove that their foreign contributions are not being used in political races in the USA?

A bigger question was asked last night. How did Harry Reid get so wealthy on a government salary and why did he not use the same investments for the good of Nevada?

As of yesterday spending on attack ads by anonymous-funding groups like the Chamber of Commerce had reached a 9 to 1 ratio in favor of Republican candidates. Overwhelmingly people say that they oppose exactly this sort of funding mechanism for smears but our Conservative elites don't care. They're going to hide behind the anonymity our Republicans on the SCOTUS and in Congress have given them and let their money work its magic on the electorate in complete safety.

Not only that, but if political ads in general have a poor reputation for accuracy these are even worse. Having examined 31 such attacks funded by unknown sources the nonpartisan organization Politifact found only 2 of them to be true! http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/oct/14/super-pacs-and-other-groups-have-poor-record-accur/

Conservatives and foreign entities are spending vast sums of money to buy elections so that they can continue to steal our future. This practice MUST be stopped, and unethical organizations including the US Chamber of Congress MUST be brought to account.

Alan, this has been laid out so many times now I can only conclude that you're deliberately missing the point, as is the entire Conservative Movement. Conservatives on the Supreme Court and in Congress have deliberately set up a system in which anonymous donors are entitled to decieve the public by circulating advertisents that have no requirements that they are even truthful. OF COURSE there's no proof of where the money, that's the whole point of this system.

This is a system that's meant to allow shadowy figures to control our democracy by letting selfish interests like the Chamber of Commerce and others http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1 buy elections. Conservatives leaders are comfortable letting the wealthy interests buy elections. Are you?

Funny, I listened to the same report on NPR yesterday. One of the two adverts to receive the "Pants on Fire" rating was from the DGA on Rick Perry.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2010/oct/01/lone-star-first/lone-star-first-funded-democratic-governors-associ/

This nonsense cuts both ways. Added after I saw your second comment. I suppose then you agree that President Obama bought the 2008 election as he spent more than anyone else?

The reason the democrats are losing this election has nothing to do with money or advertising or because they have a communications problem (this Sunday's NYT magazine). It's because they have lousy policies:

A stimulus that didn't stimulate because it was bail-out,

HCR that changes everyone insurance although we were told that we could keep our insurance if we liked it

An economy that they have no idea how to improve

Ron, et al

As much as I enjoy your posts, I fear you're preaching to the choir on First Read. These well researched, factual posts of yours should also go as letters to the editors of your local papers. We need to badger our local TV stations to report the facts on issues, and not just publicize Tea Party "personalities." The rightwingers that come here, just pop in to yank your chain. They are not open to debate, and you're wasting your energy if you think you will persuade them. Good news today: a violent rainstorm in Portland this morning has knocked down all the political signs. It's kind of refreshing to see this garbage blown away. I'm feeling fed up with politics as entertainment today, as you can see.

"Did you happen to hear that a federal judge called the government's argument for the mandate an "Alice in Wonderland" argument?"

No, No Jo, I hadn't heard that. I DID, however, hear a federal judge say Exxon-Mobile (or was it GE, or Boeing?) is just another 'regular guy', and as such, has equal voting rights as just anther regular guy. Or as you. Or as me.

Neat, huh? Our good ol' US of A is up for sale to the highest bidders!

Yes, Alan, and the Politifact web site I linked to says the same thing. It's wrong no matter who does it and it's a practice that should be outlawed. Democrats tried, but Republicans blocked attempts to bring transparency of an inherently anti-democratic process created by Conservatives on the Supreme Court. Since then spending by these nefarious groups has favored Republicans 9 to 1. The US Chamber of Commerce has spent ALL of their money on Republicans.

So the "they do it too" claim ranks "Mostly False".

Oh, you're all just pissed and whiney cause your Super SugarDaddy George Soros pulled all his money out and isn't funneling to all those left-wing-bigot-socialist communist groups Democrat candidates were counting on to fund their campaigns......and I Quote , Soros said " I'm not standing in front of an avalanche"

Great points Ron and to you and all my friends here, Good Morning.

What have I learned this week? As we get closer to the election, the conservative posters here and elsewhere get nastier by the hour. The hate they spew towards our President and his family is more than sickening. Hate filled rants towards anyone and eveyone who look different, sound different and vote different and for all of that, not one sound suggestion or solution. Just like their candidates.

All they want is the power, well if you get that, what then will you do with it? If one follows their path of obstruction, where any bill of any significance they filibuster or stall one way or another, mainly because they want the first black President to fail.

They claim they can fix the economy, yet, no Republican voted against outsourcing, it is always no, except for cutting taxes.

They give hypocrisy a bad name. My takeaway, you just cant fix ignorance and stupidity. For whomever votes for a Republican you are most of all, endorsing intolerance and for some, voting against your own future financial interests. Remember it was a republican administration, who left a legacy of unpaid bills to the tune of over a trillion dollars, for unpaid and unnecessary wars and an unfunded drug bill, that is no bargain for seniors.

John B.

Right on the money. This was deliberately structured to hide money and the respective donors. This way that can say 'NO PROOF" because they think (the republicans) that 98% of the people are stupid. Only the2% have any intelligence according to the republican/tea party

The funds are ALL co-mingled into the same account that pays for ALL Attack adds. They (COC) says trust them. In many business environments co-mingling of funds is illegal for this very reason. There is no way to track which dollars are being used for what. I am supposed to trust an entity that is working over time to outsource jobs to overseas, promoting foreign companies over American Companies. No way.

The people that think this selling off of America is a good idea are grossly misinformed or part of the problem.

Why did the republicans vote against the disclosure bill? So they would not have to tell the American People that they are in fact using foreign money.

Why did the republicans vote against the American Jobs Bill (he!!, they voted against every job bill)? Because the promised those jobs to India and China.

Why are the republicans trying to reduce or repeal the minimum wage?

Sorry republicans, that cat is out of the bag and I am not buying your rhetoric and snake oil sales pitch anymore.

roselle, IL and navy,

Good grief, how long-winded are you?

Is your heartburn getting to you?

nojonob:

Continue flagellating the deceased equine, by all means. It obviously resonates with you.

Are you're babbling about the huge sums of money pouring into Republican campaigns from secret sources, probably including foreign corporations? If so, that bronco is alive and kicking. A recent opinion poll showed that 56% of the public would be less likely to vote for a candidate getting money from secret sources and 9% would be more likely. Despite the desperate spinning the corporate media is doing to kill this scandal, Democrats should be pounding the Republicans over the head with it.

Good Morning Feisty, Ron and every other progressive here who takes the time to refute the Fox Nation and the Chamber of Commerce.

It's so true the Fox Nation is blinded by the truth and the Chamber of Commerce.

But when you can say like what Cristine O'Donnell said...

"I've got Sean Hannity in my back pocket, and I can go on his show and raise money by attacking you guys"

That's a fine example of a Tea party formula and GopTp speak for FU. Paralysis is more like it.

Yes, voters do care about secret cash funding elections! 84 % to say they have a "right to know" who's bankrolling the ads. An overwhelming. 84% of voters polled, including 80% of Republicans and 81% of Independents, believe voters have a right to know who is paying for ads for a particular candidate.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/yes_voters_do_care_about.html

Does this not solidify Ron's claim as well as the rest of us on the left here?

Tea party's made formula is a good one for paralysis in

Jingoism

Paranoia

Extremism

Bitterness

Lies

Fox News

Chamber of Commerce (UFO) Unidentified Foreign Operations

But, most of all the speak is mostly fictional.

Yesterday Feisty, you and a few others congratulated me for being on the offense in regards to the First Lady, Michelle Obama. Thank you.

Again, I'll say Tea Bagger speak is fictional.

Yesterday, First Lady Michelle Obama was under attack from the right wing nuts because the First Lady said...

"Everybody I know in our communities are praying for us. Every day we feel that. And let me just tell your listeners that it means all the world to us to know that there are prayer circles out there and people who are keeping the spirits clean around us. "

The Demons started to fly from the right wing nuts here. If America espouses to be a tolerant Christian nation, then First Lady, Michelle Obama, just dispelled the myth of a Christian Nation.

Are Christians making fun of Michelle Obama because she asked the African American community to pray for her family and "keep clean spirits around?

Folks in the Tea Party and some on the right just don't understand The Souls of Black Folks and other religions; especially Islam. So, now Michelle Obama's sincere endeavor to ask for spiritual back-up and those plotting to do physical harm to her beloved husband and family is easy to see; right?

Personally, I will; despite not being a religious person; I will widen a wish for a spiritual safety net. Ihe First Family will get nothing but positive vibrations from me. I will wish "progressive hunters" like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin and everyone in the Fox nation redirect their dirty intentions. I wish, more importantly, the entire Fox nation which has shown over and over disdain for an AA in the Oval Office would...

*Respect* the Office of The President of The United States of America!

"What we learned this week"

________________________________________________________________

Team Obama thugs and criminals covering for themselves this week Steve Rattner

No indictments?

No problem!

http://blogs.forbes.com/neilweinberg/2010/10/14/rattner-shows-cuomo-sec-justice-is-corrupt-not-blind/?boxes=Homepagelighttop

Ron,

What a great poem . . . and oh so true.

What I find depressing is that instead of searching for a solution to this situation, folks are searching for "Democrats do it too" moments.

This ain't about Democrats versus Republicans. Almost none of the issues that we are dealing with are about Democrats versus Republicans.

This is about "corporate people" versus actual people, and so far, it seems the "corporate people" are using their money to win.

They control the Congress. They control the courts. They control the airwaves. They make people believe that this is about one party versus another.

It is about very wealthy people gaming the system to keep themselves at the top and the majority of us at the bottom fighting about nontroversies.

This is so much bigger than politics as usual, which is why those who are benifitting from the current corrupt system are working hard to convince us that this is about politics.

This is about our country being sold to the highest bidder, many of them who do not even live here and are not even effected by the policies they are paying anonymously to enact.

Folks keep saying it is the ECONOMY that is the issue, but it is the corporations that pay ZERO income taxes in this country and move all of the jobs overseas, and pay our representatives to do their bidding in the Congress that have DESTROYED our economy.

Believing this is about Democrats and Republicans plays right into the hands of those seeking to change the subject and run the table.

America . . . WAKE UP!

no joe, no bo, nj

Continue flagellating the deceased equine, by all means. It obviously resonates with you.

It does not resonate with the electorate, who are more concerned about the economy, the federal deficit, ( particularly in light of Obama's admission that there is no such thing as a shovel ready job, so almost a trillion dollars was wasted on a fantasy), and the HCR fiasco.

Did you happen to hear that a federal judge called the government's argument for the mandate an "Alice in Wonderland" argument?

Epc fail. Like Obama's presidency.

No Jo i told you a month ago that you don't get out much, to see the projects that were funded by the stimluas. take a road trip, and you will see that some of the worse roads and bridges have been replaces. but to you this is not important and so what if a bridge collaspes and many are killed on there way to to bottom of a river. Ie Minnisoda, Arkansas, but that is not important to you. so what, we don't need NO Stinking Bridges!!!!

Epc fail, WOW!!!!

This from the person that believes that Roosevelt was a epic failure. this from the person that would have taken the same steps as Hoover did when depression hit, NOTHING!!! because as you said, nothing is better than anything.

So in your opinion fixing large sections of I76 in Colorado, one of the most dangerous roads i have ever been on, was a epic failure,

To replace Roads and Bridges that were build in the 50s was a waste of money???
To give local communities money to up grade facilities and equipment was a waste of money.

To give money to city's to help retain cops, firemen and teachers was a waste of money, Yea you right No Jo WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING COPS, FIREMEN, TEACHERS!!!!

No Jo to you we Don't need no stinking any thing, as you said Nothing is better than anything.

last week i was watching Bill Mahr and one of the guest said something very interesting had the president no acted in some way to stop the bleeding of Jobs he would have been Impeached. this guest was from France,

Just one of you right wing Republican/Tea Party people explains to us liberals the following:

Why did the republican/Tea Party (herein RTP) vote down the Disclosure Bill knowing that it would require both democrats and republicans to disclose all political donations?

Why did the RTP oppose the American Jobs Bill that would have closed tax loop holes and keep jobs here (which by the way was mostly paid for), while at it tell us why you opposed the creation of any job in America - you have voted virtually against every bill that was proposed to create jobs here?

Why do you want to reduce or do away with the minimum wage.

America is waiting - Tells us why you want to do this and how it makes America better??????

Because it takes courage to change, Ron. And it takes introspection to see the desirability of change. And most people are not terribly introspective.

Nash:

What I find depressing is that instead of searching for a solution to this situation, folks are searching for "Democrats do it too" moments.

I've noticed on CNN that whenever they report on some dirty tricks, scandals, or lies a Republican gets caught in they always say exactly that: "Democrats do it, too." But you NEVER hear them say "Republicans do it, too" when a Democrat like Charlie Rangel gets caught with an ethics problem.

It's true that "Democrats do it, too," but Republicans do it more by an order of magnitude. When the media sugar coats a Republican scandal with the false veneer of "balance," they are seriously misleading their viewers.

Good Morning Anna Molly:

You are absolutely correct. Most people do not want to be introspective--fear of what they might find.

@ Houston ~ Exactly so. It's not "balance," it's the logical fallacy of pointing to another wrong. In other words, a shiny object to take your eyes off the train wreck in front of you. The real danger is that it creates the impression that whatever was done is okay because everyone does it and actually ends up lowering the bar.

Don't punish me for murder, not because I didn't do it, but because someone else did it, too.

It's quite childlike, actually, but hardly innocent.

Oh, yes, here we go again ... good day Ron, Feisty, Vet, et al ....

I have been letting some of you guys do the heavy lifting on the CoC scandal - and scandal it is - in order to keep a broader perspective on political process. But you deserve the thanks of everyone - regardless of partisan position - for continuing to raise this vital issue. Big money perverts politics, regardless of party. The history proves it. And both parties have at times attempted to avoid substantive campaign finance reform when it seemed that it would be their oxen getting gored. On the other hand, the McCain-Feingold Campaign Finance Reform Act had promised to at least put some sensible limits on the system, until the Supreme Court acted.

What we are looking at this year has had little precedent since the turn of the last century. The corruption of big money in campaigns is not limited to brown bags full of cash for crooked politicians. What we see now is the corruption of the electoral process itself, abetted by the phenomenon of an information and communications structure that is blasted into a zillion pieces. I rather love the anarchy of it all, but at the same time recognize that the result is also an unrestrained rumor and disinformation mill - now being manipulated very handily by unnamed (sometimes) shadow figures promoting very narrow agendas. Thus what the money buys is what we see - but not necessarily what we'll get later.

And please, this is not a kooky "conspiracy theory." Each separate person or group pouring millions into third-party "interest" efforts usually has a distinct agenda from any others.

Vet, in particular your hard line on American jobs first appeals to many of us, but at the same time it begs a much, much broader policy issue: Protectionist trade policies. But we have NOT to give in to over-simplistic views.

Now so long after NAFTA, it's clear that program really did not achieve its principal goals, and that the complaints of critics at the time are true. The primary beneficiary of NAFTA, folks, is Canada. And in the case of Canada, there is something of a fair balance of competitiveness - relative wage scales, government regulation to protect workers, the environment and (shock!) shareholders, and most other components of the cost of production, EXCEPT taxes and health care. People who decry the Canadian health care system have a few points, but as a component of business expense it is way down the list - and even Canada's much-higher business taxes don't overload the ultimate price of goods exported to the U.S. In this case, it's a matter of manufacturing and markets - with the U.S. providing a major market for Canada.

Mexico is another story entirely. Remember that rosy vision of a U.S.-Mexico border outlined by busy maquiladoras busily producing lovely, durable, cheap goods for both countries? With healthy, happy workers in prosperous border communities? Never happened. In fact to some extent the failure of NAFTA in Mexico is a contributing factor to the nation's political and economic collapse of the past decade and the resultant gangsterism there now (but far from a full explanation of that). I won't go into some of the larger reasons why NAFTA failed in Mexico because this is already getting too long.

The real issue of NAFTA in Mexico is that it encapsulates the problems of global outsourcing. Despite most Americans' uninformed view of Mexicans, those people are really generally well-educated, hard-working, and highly motivated. The policies of the government since the early 1960's, however, eventually destroyed Mexico's once-strong middle class (policies VERY similar to those instituted by Reagan and now longingly desired by the ultra-right). The potential for a decent future with good, stable jobs disappeared. Although Mexico purports to have strong environmental regulation, workplace safety regulation, and labor laws including wage standards, those are not significant factors now. And so there's cheap labor, desperate for work and willing to be exploited for at least a job; there is rampant pollution; and there is rampant corruption.

Not so many American jobs are being outsourced to Mexico now. But in other countries with favorable official trade relationships with the U.S. and comparable conditions, there's a pipeline from the United States to their shores. In those places, as in Mexico, the cost differential is used to justify shifting production abroad and keeping it there. But it is not really the cost differential alone - it is also a set of American policies that encourage firms to leave the country.

That's why first American textile manufacturing went to Central America, then Brazil, and now Asia. That's why there are but a handful of companies that make shoes in the U.S. That's why many varieties of auto parts, machine tools, household appliances, and even furniture moved out of the U.S. to foreign states. And of course, U.S. trade policies encouraged American companies to offshore their work, paid those companies to offshore their work, and gave tax breaks to move headquarters out of the continental United States. These breaks were accompanied by changes in income tax and capital gains taxes that encouraged firms to convert short-term gains in share prices to cash, which by the way is a key component of not only the current financial meltdown but the indefensible massive bonuses executives get in the midst of that crisis.

Everything as a whole moves jobs out - and also, drives American money into foreign debt.

So now back to protectionist trade policies. It wouldn't take much to put the brakes on some outsourcing and also begin to restore sanity to American business and financial operations. Changes in upper-level personal income tax and capital gains - tied to a sliding scale of executive pay compared with median employee pay - is an easy first step. The obvious next step is to END tax and preferment policies that reward businesses for removing their jobs and operations from the United States.

But how to get BACK the jobs? Some people propose import duties to balance relative conditions.

"Differential" import duties intended to partially equalize the disparities between various international labor markets and the U.S. POSSIBLY could work, but there are two concerns with that. First, the U.S. now cannot afford higher prices on goods consumed domestically. Second, the U.S. now cannot afford to get into any kinds of trade wars. And let's add a third point: Is this at all practical?

Thus the development of any system of import duties will ONLY work if American industry is prepared to return to manufacturing competing goods in the continental U.S. Although there are idled factories dotting the landscape, most of those cannot be reinstated, they are simply too old and out-of-date. Immense capital investment and years of construction could replace many factories with new, high-efficiency plants, but it may not be any more cost-effective than importing goods. And many supplies of raw materials will have to be rebuilt in the U.S. to keep the new plants running.

Certainly there is reason to look at certain industries, in particular textiles and high-value fabrics (silk, specialty textiles, etc.), where this is possible with minimum effort for maximum return. Certainly American food processing has shown this already.

However, President Obama has made the first strides since 1980 in revitalizing American manufacturing by focusing on developing major markets. These include advanced energy production and some other "green" technologies. It is quite clear international agreements will required extensive re-tooling of factories and industrial plants - and that means growth in architecture, heavy construction, capital plant equipment, machine tools and most especially plant infrastructure - electrical motors, ventilation systems, pollution abatement equipment and technology, water cleanup and recycling, toxic byproducts handling, and much more. Obama has begun on this path, but it absolutely should become a much higher priority and soon.

NAFTA and many other "level playing field" trade agreements - which turned out to mean lowering the level of the U.S. playing field - have failed to do anything except promote American consumerism, high levels of imports, and a steady weaking of economic foundations in the U.S. Perhaps in a few very narrow circumstances, some protectionist measures may be justified, but overall, choosing the lowest-common-denominator as the principal competition is not good policy.

The United States should not be competing with China or India or Sri Lanka or Mexico. The United States should be competing with Germany, France, Sweden, Holland, Switzerland, Poland, Russia, Japan, S. Korea and yes, Finland. Those are the countries that now make high-value products used in America - huge stamping presses, plate and roll stock mills, machinery for advanced composites, equipment for large pharmaceutical manufacturing, and so on. They build ships - but so once did the U.S. They build luxury cars - and so does the U.S. And now they are building American-branded aircraft (mandated, often, by "offset" trade agreements so that foreign carriers will fly those aircraft).

This essay has gone too long, but it was long overdue in the narrower discussion of campaign financing, government policy and jobs. And there is a VITAL role for government in these matters that the "purists" on the right do not see - the so-called "free market" (it isn't and hasn't been for decades) put exactly where we are now. The Obama Administration has made some excellent first steps and needs to do more.

And in the meantime, of course, policies that continue paying corporations for extracting American jobs for foreign destinations must STOP.

Red herrings, Anna.

Regarding the issue with the COC - if the problem lies with the possibility that foreign money is being funneled to fuel campaign ads or other political activity and therefore allow external forces to influence domestic elections, then it needs to stop.

But so too should it cease for other organizations, as well. If we're going to demonize and damn the COC for taking nearly a million in foreign funds we need to demonize and damn every group that does it.

"The piece detailed the chamber’s overseas memberships, but it provided no evidence that the money generated overseas had been used in United States campaigns."

You greed driven good Republican chaps are laughable trying to justify the Chamber Of Commerce funneling foreign money into political campaigns, you know they are, I know they are, I mean come on save what little dignity you have left.

No one has provided any court room worthy evidence to date showing how the Camber Of Commerce is laundering campaign money for foreign interests, yet. And the Chamber Of Commerce has not provided any court room worthy evidence that they have not, because the Supreme Court says they don't have to show evidence of anything to anyone, pathetic.

It's interesting that what the C of C is doing is considered 'scandalous', but it was perfectly OK when Obama did it in 2008.

Where did Obama's $740 Million+ in 'contributions' come from? Since much of it came from 'pre-paid credit cards' (untraceable), how much of it was from foreigners?

By the way. McCain was limited by law to spending only $84 Million on his campaign.

Quite a disparity, it would seem.

Hypocrite: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion. Last I checked old G. Soros wasn't an American. Think you libs need to stay on your medication.....

Soros donated $23,581,000 to various 527 groups dedicated to defeating President Bush. A 527 group is a type of American tax-exempt organization named after a section of the United States tax code, 26 U.S.C. § 527. Despite Soros' efforts, Bush was reelected to a second term as president.

After Bush's re-election, Soros and other donors backed a new political fundraising group called Democracy Alliance which supported the goals of the U.S. Democratic Party. Soros supported the McCain-Feingold Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002, which many hoped would end "soft money" contributions to federal election campaigns.^[ Soros has made soft money donations to 527 organizations that he says do not raise the same corruption issues as donations directly to the candidates or political parties

Ron in Indiana, you post a thought provoking note. Thanks for not being vindictive or bitter. I'm a Reagan Republican wanting waste and corruption swept out of Washington, like everyone else. I don't feel served by either of these parties (or the Tea Baggers), and won't until there is accountability and fiscal responsibility to our budget and beloved country. I don't appreciate the finger pointing and blame game. I may not agree in ideology with a lot of the liberal programs, but I think we as a country need to start taking care of our own citizens (Katrina vs. exporting $$$ to other countries) and put America first in commerce, immigration, jobs/business the elderly and the environment.

@ Exodite Dragon ~ Just a question, seriously. What other groups are also doing it? I'd like to know. You're right that it should stop, regardless of who's doing it. And even if it wasn't illegal, disclosure is important here.

Otherwise, how can you call it speech, if no one knows you said it.

@ Glenn ~ Not to mention education. But you may want to rethink that "Reagan Republican" thing. It was during his administration that much of the decline in all the things that you mention began, starting with fiscal responsibility, loss of jobs, and the environment. His true legacy is not really in sync with those things you say you are for.

Hobie:

You can rail against George Soros because he is not anonymous. Anonymous donations is bad news no matter who does it.

Roy:

It is always more persuasive when you can provide links for your allegations. But taken at face value, WE THE PEOPLE need to work TOGETHER to eliminate all opportunities for folks to buy elections, regardless of which candidate or party does it.

Those that are enriched by the status quo are counting on us to fight about foolishness instead of band together to take our democracy back to what it was intended to be - a country ran by the will of "we the people", NOT the "corporate people".

Glenn:

Thank you for taking the time to add your voice and perspective. I appreciate it very much. You give me hope that we can come together and actually make our country better.

I'm just curious, do you think Justice Alito would mouth the words "that's not true" (while listening to Pres. Obama"s State of the Union speach earlier this year), today, after seeing the direct results of the SCOTUS desision on citizens united now 9-10 months later?

Hypocrite: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion. Last I checked old G. Soros wasn't an American. Think you libs need to stay on your medication.....

George Soros became a citizen of the United States in 1961. Which was 59 years ago. Which is probably a good deal longer than you've been alive.

I'm just curious, do you think Justice Alito would mouth the words "that's not true" (while listening to Pres. Obama"s State of the Union speach earlier this year), today, after seeing the direct results of the SCOTUS desision on citizens united now 9-10 months later?

Of course he would. These people are far more invested in doing what they think upholds their belief system than they are ever admitting something they did might have disastrous consequences.

Denial of reality is par for the course. Look at NoJo's posts on a daily basis.

John A, great writing in 1.27. I always look forward to reading what you put up here on FR. Quality work.

Glen:

Thank you for your comments. You are right that I am not vindictive or bitter. But I am frustrated that the polarization of the two parties is preventing our country from being the best it can be. As I watch the GOP becoming more and more conservative, I'm thinking Reagan looks more and more like a moderate whom the Democrats could work with.

Hobie,

I understand that Faux hasn't given you any factual information in a very long time; but for the record, George Soros has been a naturalized American Citizen since 1961.

You seem a little bitter that he seems to have made the American Dream a reality. You might want to lay off the hate-o-raid this weekend.

Beverly in Chicago

*Respect* the Office of The President of The United States of America!

Most people respect the office of the POTUS. Most people have a problem with the person currently holding the position.

Soros has spent vast sums of money to project his socialist dream. Until now, this has not been an issue to the Left, because he was a benefit. The issue isn't really about where the money is coming from anyway, the issue is the fact that this Administration has done a horrendous job, under a President that is not up to the task. A President that is obviously more concerned about his ego than he is about the people of this great Nation....and believe me, unlike you far Lefties, most of us still think this is a great Nation. I could list 100 things this President has done, that have been embarrassing and unpresidential, but for me, the worst was apologizing to other Nations for who we are. For that alone he lost my respect and any chance of a future vote from me.

Anna Molly: Because it takes courage to change, Ron. And it takes introspection to see the desirability of change. And most people are not terribly introspective.

You are correct. Lots of people got through life believing and spouting their second-hand, second-or-third-generation thoughts, without ever questioning or thinking. That takes time, sometimes years, to find our real true selves, but so worth the journey to independent and intelligent thinking.

Socrates: The unexamined life is not worth living....

Dave D-1046643

Soros has spent vast sums of money to project his socialist dream.

Dave, George Soros has made his money the old-fashioned way, and he is hardly a socialist.

One of the more interesting and important offers Soros made was not long after the breakup of the USSR, when he noffered $6 billion of his own money to help Russia stay afloat and reorganize as a capitalist state.

Recently a CSPAN panel, discussing the 15th anniversary of the fall of the USSR (this was a holiday weekend re-broadcast), featured some diplomats who were involved in those events. Among the failures of US policy during that confusing time - and they had a long list to discuss - was the failure to take up Soros on his offer. The diplomat commented that had it been done, then not only would great suffering have been avoided but also a non-political civil infrastructure would have survived.

As we learned recently, instead the security service remnants of the JGB instead took over.

Many of us disagree that the Obama Administration is not up to the task. It has recorded stupendous achievements in a short time. The task is literally global, and has been developing since Reagan first took office. Certainly turning back to the policies that have cause such serious economic, social, cultural and political collapses is not the answer now.

How about that...I'm wrong on Soros...he is a citizen! I wonder how he got around the political contribution laws? Oh...that's right...he's donating to democRATs.

$115,500 Biennial Limit

You have a biennial (two year) limit of $115,500 on your total contributions to Federal candidates and Federal political committees combined. Of the $115,500, an individual may contribute no more than $45,600 to candidates and no more than $69,900 to all PACs and parties (no more than $45,600 of the $69,900 may be given to committees that are not national party committees).

John, Tucson, AZ

Most people respect the office of the POTUS. Most people have a problem with the person currently holding the position.

Beverly in Chicago

*Respect* the Office of The President of The United States of America!

Let me channel my inner Rebuplician and take all back to 2006, or just dig up part of an old reply to a post I made why back.

"There is no difference between the office of the POTUS and the man holding that office."

From there that person went off a rather hate filled, vile attack on my person, going so far as to try to track me down, hack my computer systems, raise hell with my employer until he found I was self-employed, so then he moved on to attempting to locate my residence..Let's just say it got pretty bad.

Funny, how times change eh? Now Rebuplicians go off and get all technical about the office of POTUS. Either they got smarter or they're just hypocrites.

The right-wing has won with fear-mongering and emotions for some time now. Facts only aggravate this process.

And the new version of it --

Per a strategist’s comment on the news, the Tea Party is just Republicans who want to go back in time. This explains why a candidate thinks we can barter chickens for health care. Or why a so-called "strict" interpretation of the constitution would mean abolishment of anything not specified in a document written over two hundred years ago meant only as a guideline. And why most of these same folks believe the Bible to be literal and are anti-intellectualism.

Aside from interpretation of things like the constitution or Bible being subjective, or in the case of baggers interpreting the constitution however it suits them, sorry but the barter system is no longer viable and the rest of us don't want to live in the Dark Ages in which a gifted person like Isaac Newton would be persecuted.

We live in a modern time with problems that require modern solutions. Even the right to bear arms no longer has the same meaning because hunting rifles are meaningless against modern weaponry of the government. As for Separation of Church and State and “under God” being added to the pledge of allegiance, and “in God we trust” being added to currency in the 1950s – I take it these modern changes should be abolished too? No, conservatives cherry pick and rationalize everything, as we all know.

Also, this glorification of the old days forgets how hard and miserable it actually was. The Amish try to live it, but still enjoy an external system that allows them to do so without invasion from another country or total economic collapse or anarchy.

The Tea Party wants to go backward, not forward, which isn’t a platform. One can wax nostalgic, but really, wow, just wow.

Steve-505729
Over 450,000 jobs lost per week since july, thats over 5 million jobs lost by this Administration and the Democrats just in 3 months.. Nice try but the American people are tired of the Democrats lies and Smear tactics. you provide no Facts only Attack opinions..

Here we have someone who doesn't know the difference between new jobless claims and jobs lost. When you say that the Democrats provide no Facts, you must mean the facts you get from Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh. And as usual, a clueless right winger speaking for the American people.

IR:

Good morning and happy Friday. Nice post to end the week. I have been watching the snippets of Reid and Angle debate. I just wish Harry would take of the kiddie gloves and tell it like it is. Angle is scary as he!!. I still want to know who gave the 14 Million to this unqualified clown.

Harry had a few chances to really drive home what Angle is about and he basically punted (again). If he looses this election he has nobody to blame but himself (Special Interest groups are the only reason this is even close).

Fascinating that the same Conservatives who called people who disagreed with them traitors during the entire Bush Administration (and never really stopped) http://speaknowconservatives.org/2009/03/29/are-liberals-really-traitors.aspx now feel justified in threats of armed insurrection just because they lost a couple of legitimate elections. It seems to me THESE are the real traitors--people who would overthrow the longest surviving democracy in the WORLD just to get their way. Who, rather than merely disagreeing with opposing viewpoints find it necessary to bully them into silence. This way lies not the American way of life, but something alien and dangerous.

superlogi

This reason this is close, is that Nevada has the highest unemployment rate in the nation and Harry is a typical tax and spend progressive who doesn't have a clue. With regard to disclosure, why are you just bringing it up now?

The unemployment rate in Nevada is "not" a single problem for Harry Reid but a problem for the Governor in Nevada...Reid is NOT the Governor and there is NOTHING that Angel will be able or EVEN attempt to do anything about...

If that were so...the Republicans that are currently in Washington filibustering, pandering hate and fear, being the Party of NO would have "attempted" to help fix what they screwed up...

As for disclosure...when the Tea Party members at rallies that have been held actually "knew" or cared about "taking their country back" they wouldn't be cheering the fund raising of special interest groups that include funds from God knows WHAT Terrorist Group...

Thanks to the Conservative Justices...they've opened to door to any and every group in any Nation to buy candidates and seats in Washington to do their bidding...

So the Ra, Ra, and much talk about "how much money" that stupidity buys is a joke...every American in this Nation should be appalled...

There's my Birmingham Ace. Good Morning Long time no see but always welcomed and appreciated

But Harry and Obama Promised Jobs if the Stimulus was passed, it was passed.. and still no jobs.. So. Tell us. How is Harry not responsible

Good Post IR, how are thing in one of our most beautiful states?

The MSM long ago have sold their collective souls, they are no longer eople of integrity, all have an agenda and that appears to be keep their jobs by keeping hard questions on nefarious behaviour to a minimum. Once again, money and greed trump truth and honesty.

Yeh Steve but I never heard President Obama or Senator Reid threaten to go to war with their Fellow Americans if companies didn't start hiring. Think maybe we could come up with a better solution to the problem than that. Don't You?

Independent Redneck Va.,

Hi IR! Excellent posting...I won't be out here but a minute...I just couldn't resist! :)

superlogi:

This reason this is close, is that Nevada has the highest unemployment rate in the nation and Harry is a typical tax and spend progressive who doesn't have a clue.

If Reid is a "tax and spend" liberal, then why did he go along with the tax cut, which constituted 30% of the stimulus bill? Bet you can't answer because all you've got is idiotic Republican talking points -- or lying points, to be more precise.

With regard to disclosure, why are you just bringing it up now?

You must have just dropped in from another planet. The scandalous "Citizens United" ruling by the corporate tools on the Roberts Supreme Court that made it possible for corporations to buy elections was denounced by President Obama in his State of the Union Speech -- 9 months ago.

A lot of us here commented on how this was a major blow to American democracy. I once wrote that it could be the "death blow." Those predictions seem to be coming true in this election -- which should be no surprise to any person of average intelligence. Of course, maybe that's why the media pundits seem so surprised at the enormous amounts of money gushing into the Republican campaigns from secret sources. A lot of "journalists" seem to be on the wrong side of the IQ bell curve.

Morning GBM Cool and clear on the Hill. Leaves just starting to turn. Looking forward to the next month of changing so I have a good picture to carry through the long cold winter while I set by the fire and kick back a little.

Hey IR,

The topic was Harry Reid .. good Attempt at trying to change the subject of the Failed Stimulus and Unemployment at 14 percent in nevada.... I wont play your Game of Divert ,, Divert .. Divert...

Aw Steve I'll guess by your tone this morning that you don't appreciate me going to all the trouble to do the research and put up the candidates position so you wouldn't have to squirm and scramble for a way to call me liar and a person of general low character and limited intelligence like you did last week. And last time I checked Senator Reid's opponent in the race in Nevada is Ms Angle so I'm trying to divert how?

Steve-505729,

But Harry and Obama Promised Jobs if the Stimulus was passed, it was passed.. and still no jobs.. So. Tell us. How is Harry not responsible

Chit!...Republicans promised Americans a lot of chit and they did it with a "Contract" and are now attempting to revive that same stale ass lie...

If Obama knew in advance ANY idea what he was inheriting while running for President...or how BAD of shape that this nation was in...the number of jobs lost...I think that the Democrats are doing a great job considering the fact that we are slowly recovering from a DEPRESSION...

IR .. Yes it was Obama that said he wanted a Well Armed Civilian Force.. as well as the US army. .. You are correct .. that is scary stuff..

Anita,

450,000 New Unemployment claims per week on average since JULY.. Thats over 5 Million jobs lost.. yea.. we are recovering..

Steve-505729,

450,000 New Unemployment claims per week on average since JULY.. Thats over 5 Million jobs lost.. yea.. we are recovering..

Damn right we are and instant gratification, grumbling from asses that "know" full well what they did, MSM lying and attempting to shrug this depression off as being a "deep recession"...to Republican Politicians in Washington filibustering what WE all KNOW is the right course of action for bring our nation back...

Republicans taunting Obama's Waterloo, you lie, Supreme Court Justices weighing in politically on remarks by our sitting President as he explained to Americans a FACTUAL ruling made by them, to watering the f---ing tree of liberty...

Now we're contending with "Chamber of Commerence members" (the overall national business community) fighting the President's agenda through layoff's and any other means in order to elect their candidates into office to do their bidding..

Steve...you stepped to the right cookie this morning (me) with your parroting talking points....enjoy your SNACK...

Anita:

Nice to know you haven't lost your touch . . . great to see you! :o)

Yea,,

Thats it Anita,

"Dont Stop Believing".. 5 Million Jobs lost in just the past 3 Months..

Rant at me all you want. I got Big shoulders and can take anything you can throw at me.. I understand that you will throw yourself under the bus for this FAILED president.. the Corrupt Democrats in Congress, but come Novermber .. You lose...

Steve,

Now tell us how many people were hired during that same period.

Then tell us how many jobs were lost during the same period in 2006.

FYI the number you have been repeating for at least 2 days now is meaningless. It doesn’t matter if 1 job or 1 million jobs are lost if there are more hired than fired.

STTS

Why do you guys keep engaging Steve, seriously?

Every goddamn time he makes a post he demonstrates an obstinate resistance to not only facts and reasoned counter-argument, but an absolute inability to post anything other than some variation on a decidedly narrow list of talking points.

He's an instigator. Let well enough alone. Once he realizes he can't get a reaction he won't post as bloody often.

Dennis,

Since we know by Obamas Numbers the Private Sector has Created only 860,000 jobs in 2010 Thats all of 2010, and my numbers are only for the past 3 months . You tell me..

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2010/10/11/obama-created-863k-jobs-in-2010-so-far-more-than-double-bushs-annual-average/

See i even used a Liberal site to show you how many jobs Obama Claims to have Created..

Creating jobs is great.. but you have to subtract those from the JOBS LOST BY OBAMA .. Which the democrats never want to talk about..

what makes me laugh even more is that we know that NEW unemployment Claims have been on Average 450,000 per week for the past 3 months.. to offset that there would have had to been 5,400,000 jobs Created just to offset the unemployment numbers.. In just 3 MONTHS.. if that were true Obama would be telling us he created that many...

Steve,

“Creating jobs is great.. but you have to subtract those from the JOBS LOST BY OBAMA .. Which the democrats never want to talk about..”

Steve the 860k number reflects jobs added minus jobs lost already – it is a “net” number.

BTW - Thanks for the link. It’s nice to see that the only President (in the last 60 years) to create fewer jobs than Bush 43 was Bush 41 and he only served 4 years.

Dennis..

If Obama had Created 5.400,000 jobs in the past 3 Months he would be claiming that.. he only claimed 80,000 last month.. 70,000 the month before and i think it was 64,000 the month before that..

to argue that 5,400,000 jobs were created Plus the 210,000 that obama claims for the past 3 months thats 5.6 million jobs created Minus the 5.4 million lost.. but the Unemployment rate goes up from 9.5 percent to 9.6 percent is a joke.. How is it possible to create jobs but the unemployment rate goes up..

"BTW - Thanks for the link. It’s nice to see that the only President (in the last 60 years) to create fewer jobs than Bush 43 was Bush 41 and he only served 4 years."

It isn't Steve's fault Dennis, either he just woke up from a nap or it's nearly nap time.

Steve:

So your dumbass contention is that 4.2 million more net people are unemployed since August, yet the unemployment figure remains almost exactly the same?

In order for those figures to have been accurate an for 4.2 million net jobs lost to equal a 0.1% increase in unemployment, 176.4 million people would have had to have lost their jobs since November of 2008.

By the way, that is more people than are actually in the U.S. labor force.

Are you really this much of a tool?

Nashville_fan,

Good to see you as well!! HUG to you!! and LOL...I just do like insects! LMAO!!!

Steve-505729,

the Corrupt Democrats in Congress, but come Novermber .. You lose...

I will defend my party and my President by providing facts verses the fiction and parroting of pundits of a Party of misfits and liars and dysfunctional leadership that's been displayed and continuing to played out in Washington...

The Republican Party and their merry band of thieves are "STILL" pandering their BS...when the majority of Americans in this Nation KNOW that they are nothing but slicks, tricks and hustlers...

Yes Stevie...November will be the deciding factor for manay in those states that elect to throw away their lievlyhoods on lemmings...

Beings that you approved of Joe Wilson's stupidity...spawned by the cowards of the Republican Party (you lose)...will you all pick up your marbles and go home?...I think not...

You will try another tactic...you people just refuse to accept the "will" of the people...

Exodite Dragon,

I really do enjoy "making " people like Steve spill their ignorance for all to see....

Michael,

Now what i am claiming is that the Unemployment rate is actually Higher then the 9.6 percent that the government reports.. Because Millions of people have just fallen out of collecting Unemployment.. meaning there paid in funds have run out.. . The Govt doens't Report the number of people that just just plain stopped looking...

Steve,

The unemployment number from the DoL does not take in account all unemployed. You would have to track the “underemployment” number. It is not a government tracked number so there are several sources. I use Gallup which currently says it is at 18.4% but was at 20.3% just 6 months ago, so it is falling.

Thanks Michael – good points !!

http://www.gallup.com/Home.aspx

STTS

Steve-505729

But Harry and Obama Promised Jobs if the Stimulus was passed, it was passed.. and still no jobs.. So. Tell us. How is Harry not responsible

According to the CEA, as of the second quarter of 2010, the Recovery Act has raised employment by between 2.5 and 3.6 million jobs. This puts us well on track to reach the 3.5 million jobs benchmark by the end of this year. (Council of Economic Advisors, 7/14/10) Furthermore, independent economists have found that without the efforts to save the economy, including the Recovery Act, the nation’s gross domestic product would be about 6.5 percent lower this year and there would be about 8.5 million fewer jobs, on top of the more than 8 million already lost. (New York Times, 7/28/10)

Steve, you are expecting instant gratification from the federal government. That's not how it works. They lay the "foundation" as they did with Stimulus $$ in various areas. That effort HAS been successful as noted above. Instead of criticizing the folks who made the Stimulus happen you should be thanking them for their efforts to avoid a much worse situation....and they did this for US.

Okay, I'll buy into the notion that the unemployment may be underreported. It's been underreported for about 20 years now, ever since they did the accounting trick of not reporting certain segments of the unemployed population.

However, in order for there to have been a net job loss of 176 million jobs since November of 2008, it would mean that absolutely no one in the entire nation is working, which is obviously galactically untrue.

In addition, since 5.4 million people represents approximately 3.6% of the U.S. labor force, that would mean a jump in unemployment of to 13.1% in the past 3 months.

Do you actually think if the unemployment figure in the nation had jumped from 9.5% to 13.1% in a midterm election year, when Dems are already vulnerable and Reps are looking for that one thing that might turn a wave election into a tidal wave of epic proportions, you wouldn't be hearing it on every political ad and being trumpeted on Fox on a quarter hourly basis with a big flashing graphic touting "13.1%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" over every anchors head at all times?

Steve,

Your slip is showing so badly...that it's hanging around your knees...

Before President Obama was even sworn into office we were hemorrhaging jobs by the hundreds of thousands per week...

Bush and the Republicans did'nt create ANY NEW jobs while they were in office and the jobs that were created under the Clinton Administration were lost...

Those jobs were lost in the same manner that Bush's unsuccessful attempts at being a business man was...hind sight should have been 20/20 for the gullible voters that voted to elect him and them (Republicans) into office...I guess that's why they CHEATED...

Steve-505729
what makes me laugh even more is that we know that NEW unemployment Claims have been on Average 450,000 per week for the past 3 months.. to offset that there would have had to been 5,400,000 jobs Created just to offset the unemployment numbers.. In just 3 MONTHS.. if that were true Obama would be telling us he created that many...

Here you are again with the same nonsense. Maybe you can find somebody who can the difference between new unemployment claims and jobs lost.

No, danger field, I don't think so. What I think was revealed last night was the danger inherent in the tactic of casting your opponent as a lunatic.

When you appear with that opponent, who appears to be as normal as anyone else, you are the one who looks like, well, a lunatic.

Reid should not have made his attacks so personal. It leaves him looking petty and mean.

Notice what the far-Left lefties want to talk about. Do you see any references to any "successes" of the Democrats? They don't even mention the Democrats, they just attack the Republicans, the Tea Party, and of course "Faux News" (how original - have only seen that one about million times - It's really time the Left grows up and cuts out these child like references).

Why would Liberals support the Obama/Democrat agenda? Its been a complete failure. Over-regulation, higher taxes, HCR no one wanted, high unemployment. When the Republicans win back Congress two things will happen, first and foremost the gravy train of $50 billion deficit spending bills every month will stop, and no more trillion "stimulus" plans that stimulate nothing but only make payoffs to state unions. Second, businesses and people will have a certainly in what taxes they will be paying. The Republicans won't leave the people hanging like Pelosi did when she skipped town without a vote on extension of the Bush tax cuts.

Change is coming Democrats, and if you don't get out of the the way, you're going to get run over.

NJNBNJ:

Reid should not have made his attacks so personal. It leaves him looking petty and mean.

So you're saying Harry was acting natural.

It's funny how these republicans are having a hard time defending Angle. Sprinkle a little salt on them and they'll be a pretzel the way they've got themselves tied in a knot.

Obviously, you're oblivious to the subtleties of debate, Mo.

Sharron Angle is not an ideal candidate...far from it, in fact.

And yet, Nevada's voters are clearly reluctant to make the choice to re-elect Senator Reid over Ms. Angle.

The fact that they are having such difficulty making that choice says far more about Harry Reid than it does about Sharron Angle.

It's actually not a puzzle at all, Mo.

Sharron Angle aside, Reid's Nevada constituents simply don't like him much.

Don't make this so hard.

JoAnnaSmith1 - perhaps you'd look at post 1.27. That's a SOLID defense of key programs the President and Senator Reid managed to push through the Congress.

As you know, I've taken on other issues as well, in defense of the generally-excellent record of the Democrats since 2009. And I put MEAT, not just sloganeering, into those posts.

Sharron Angle's comments last night - I watched the debate despite the hour on the East Coast - left me thinking she's a one-note Nancy who spouts slogans for the most part. "10th Amendment rights," "free markets," and the rest of her positions are all REGRESSIVE and have been shown ineffective in not only current economic conditions, but as a general concept for governing the country. Most of her views derive from either a pre-Industrial America or the post-Civil War decades of unrestrained expansion, monopolism, and exploitation of the masses for the benefit of a few. This country has come a LONG, hard way since then, and there is NO going back.

Sure, I want MORE from the Obama Administration and Senator Reid. There has been too much long-term focus and not enough short-term effort (although they started with the short-term needs and responded well). Yet I also admit that Obama's small business development program will produce some mid-term results with the majority over the longer view, and that ultimately that program helps build a sustainable platform of economic growth and jobs development.

Sharron Angle showed she doesn't understand a bit of that.

Harry Ried really embarrassed Angle in the discussion about responsibility for jobs. When Angle says on the one hand that she as a Senator has no such responsibility, but on the other blames Reid for a perceived failure to create jobs, it's just plain nuts. Reid went on to document the numbers of jobs his efforts created or saved in Nevada. Angle talked about "policies" that would let a "free market" (which is an utter myth and has been for decades) create jobs. She tried to suggest things would take off like a skyrocket as soon as her ideas were implemented. That is absolute garbage. The record of not only the Bush Administration but the past 25 years gives the lie to it.

What Angle WOULD do is immediately expand the crushing burden of poverty and hopelessness even further across Nevada. The entire state is a service economy, for Pete's sake. Unless people do have work of some kind or a means of simply surviving this economic crisis, and are spending their money in that service economy (whether by coming from LA to the casinos or just around the corner to a grocery) the ENTIRE STATE is going to starve.

Sharron Angle and the Tea Party/Libertrian wing of the GOP offer failed old solutions for problems created by their avowed policies. Obama and the Democrats have stepped up to the demands of the time and offer more opportunity and hope for improvement.

JoAnnaSmith1:

Your post displays the mindset that says momentum can be stopped in an instant. The American economy has been chugging along for 50 years, where red ink budgets were the rule, NOT the exception. After 50 years of increasing deficits, it is not possible to hit the brakes and expect favorable results. Indeed virtually all economists agree that some sort of government intervention was required to avoid disaster.

I challenge you to show me where there was over-regulation. The end of Glass-Steagall and the passage of Gramm-Leach-Bliley represents the epitome of DE-regulation. Your assertion of over-regulation is utterly without foundation. Indeed, it is absolutely false.

Again, I challenge you to show where taxes have increased. The fact is, the debate over whether to merely let tax rates RETURN to where they were several years ago is still on the table. No Joanna, the tax CUTS are still in effect. That assertion also is false.

Health Care Reform? That's really wonderful. Virtually all polls clearly demonstrate that when those being polled are presented with the details of the program, a majority approves of the bill. The coup de grace to your argument is the "Republican Contract". They promise repeal but then they turn right around and promise enactment of a virtually identical law. (As an aside I would point out that the Republicans would have to sweep the elections to get a repeal and that simply won't happen.)

High unemployment is a function of demand. Even now, after almost two years, no one seems to be able to figure out that the consumption economy will not return. What we do consume in the way of durables comes from off shore trade. You can see John A.'s post at 1.27 if you are truly interested in facts.

You talk about $50-Billion-dollars in deficits every month. Do some arithmetic. Interest payments alone average 35-Billion-dollars every month. Republicans run like hell when someone tries to pin them down about where the government can cut "waste". Why don't you tell us where you would make cuts to bring the budget into balance?

There is a clear majority of economists who agree that the stimulus bill DID work. That money went to unions was largely a decision of local authorities. Sounds like you had better be talking to local authorities about their priorities, because they're already knocking on Congressional doors for more relief.

Of all the talking points you mindlessly regurgitate, the "lack of uncertainty for business" is the most ridiculous. No one knows what the future holds. Taxes might go up, they might go down, and truth to tell, the help that the government is trying to get out there has been blocked by Republicans. That's a fact.

I have made my living in the world of the self-employed for many years now. I know what a Schedule C is, and that's what most of us use. If you actually knew what that was, you wouldn't come here with such BS as you spew. Indeed, a small businessperson with a good idea is going to run with it right now. He isn't going to wait for someone to pre-empt him. In fact, I'm getting ready to start something new, and the prospective tax structure for me is not even a consideration.

Really, you have no idea what you are talking about...or more accurately, you are simply repeating untruths.

Ooh, someone's using his "word of the day" calendar.

struck a nerve? lol

It is interesting how willing you are to let corporations assign topics to be discussed.

Odd.

The DNC assigns the talking points here.

It is interesting how willing you are to swallow this conspiracy theory non-traversy bait hook, line, and sinker.

Are you angered because you can't read dangerfield or is it that you just can't stand facts?

This conflict is part of a feint by the Marcabians, I swear to Xenu.

dangerfield:

I am not alleging a conspiracy. . . I am stating the FACT that anonymous "corporate people" are filling our airwaves with lies, paying to silence our media, outsourcing our jobs, and pitting us against each other so we won't notice.

What about that is not a proven fact?

in the words of Ronald Reagan,,

"Its not that our liberal friends are Ignorant, its that they know so much that isnt so"

Dangerfield sez:

These morning off-topic "essays" are getting elephantine...

Yeah. Everyone should follow Dangerfield's lead and keep their off-topic posts to one-liners like he and other trolls usually do.

Uh, Houston! your post is a troll...lol

We all know you have a crush on me but please...it gets embarrassing...lol

You're just mad you didn't have a good, witty one-liner this morning.

"Facts are stupid things......stubborn things, I should say", Ronald Reagan addressing the Republican National Convention in 1968. Did Reagan simply botch John Adam's original quote or did he view facts as stupid things? Who knows, we can dismiss it as a gaff, assume it was a slip of the tongue. But judging from the right's unwillingness to accept facts as facts--I conclude that like Reagan said--they think facts are stupid things.

Jody,

I really Appreciate you proving my Point.. the Year was 1964,

They know so much that isnt so...

Dangerfield

We all know you have a crush on me but please...it gets embarrassing...lol

Sorry, but I'm not partial to trolls.

Ah, the ever popular "Pee Wee Herman" riposte...lol

Your post was a troll, mine a reply to your troll. Stop embarrassing yourself...lol

Steve, I'd have to say the last 30 years have proven it was Reagan who knew a lot of things that weren't so. Through his guiding principles the Federal debt exploded. http://zfacts.com/p/318.html Wealth accumulated at the top at unprecedented levels http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116849172911973577.html while the middle class share of the pie declined. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116849172911973577.html and http://www.lwv.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=12682 Meanwhile Conservatives continue their disdain for policies that work http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf?L=HPADV2&C=ZANDIBLINDER&P=LEARNMORE preferring to cater exclusively to the wealthy elites http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38935053/ns/business-us_business/ and those who are willing to spend the money to buy public offices for them. http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=1

Conservatism failed. Utterly.

I keep hearing everyone talk about fact. Funny thing about facts though, when taken out of context they can mis iterpreted. And when presented by someone who is trying to use them to their advantage, can be presented in a very misleading fashion.

I guess what I am trying to say is that facts are only as good as the original source they are gained from. Everytime they are passed on they change a little

And the media aren't really journalists, so much as entertainers trying to sway your opinion.

All I hear from you whining liberals is how you go on and on about the big bad Republicans. You all sound like children who bitch because you don't get your way. The truth is your party is done and your little social experiment is about to be dismantled by the American people. Socialism does not work, its a disease and all you have to do is look at every country that has tried it and you will see a history of failure. What does work is freedom, small government and free enterprise lower taxes. You liberals need to wake up, the garbage that your professors fed you in college does not work in the real world. Human being are born with free will given by the creator and as hard as you try to take that away from them the harder they will fight back to preserve it. The progressive movement will be on its way to dying after November 2.

How does allowing the wealthy elites to amass even more of society's wealth at the expense of the middle class enhance freedom? What about the legalized theft that was deregulation of the financial markets? Is dying without health care freedom? Or retiring to a life of poverty after living your life at a subsistence-level wage? If something goes wrong in your life and you lose your financial security, is eating out of a garbage can freedom?

As far as what works, senior poverty dropped by over half thanks to Social Security. The GI Bill, generous commitments to education, the Interstate Highway system and a lot of other investments in society gave us the strongest, most prosperous nation in history, all based in a strong middle class. The Great Society programs cut poverty in the non-retired group by half as well. Liberalism is a far cry from Socialism and it works just fine, thank you very much.

As for Conservatism, the middle class has been stagnant to declining starting during the Reagan years. Wealth has concentrated strongly to the very wealthy, and political power as well. Deregulation created a series of increasingly large bubbles resulting in deeper and deeper recessions with more and more lackluster recoveries. It also created an environment in which stealing is legal, which is why almost NO ONE has suffered legal consequences from the financial crash. Conservatives on the Supreme Court have decreed that limitless anonymous campaign contributions are "free speech", legalizing bribery. Conservatism has actually descended to a level where I've heard and seen multiple Conservative pundits and talkers make a case that the best way to help people is to do nothing for them. It's a cold, heartless, greedy philosophy.

Keep it simple?

Following that sage advice in NY means no cable, no bank, no airline, no AMY'S BREAD!...do you think the rainbow flag outside Tom Cat Bakery is there for the tea party? Tea dances perhaps...

http://www.manhattancc.org/common/directory/default3.cfm?clientID=11001

Please read the members list (it will take a couple of days...) and let me know which are the "good" businesses....

The Chamber actively supports outsourcing and then runs ads complaining about job losses. It is no longer a business organization, it has become a wing of the Republican party.

I agree with union baby, but before anyone boycotts their local chamber they need to find out if they are a member of the US chamber. Not all local chambers belong to the US chamber. If these local chambers start pulling their support from the US chamber it will get their attention.

The Chamber of Commerce is nothing more than a parasite to American Business. They and the Better Business Bureau are scams influenced by mafia like practices.

Just like the NRA they exist due to there memberships, AND for the main purpose to drive a political agenda.

Mo:

I agree with union baby, but before anyone boycotts their local chamber they need to find out if they are a member of the US chamber.

Yes, some of the local Chambers have dis associated from the national outfit because it has become too extreme. This fact was reported long before the current Chamber of Horrors scandal.

"Birdman2010

The Chamber of Commerce is nothing more than a parasite to American Business. They and the Better Business Bureau are scams influenced by mafia like practices.

Just like the NRA they exist due to there memberships, AND for the main purpose to drive a political agenda."

Holy Crap Birdman! Just like the Unions!

Unions are fighting to keep jobs in this country. Unions are fighting for a living wage, good working conditions, and job security.

Ever notice that most of the problem mines in this country are non-union?

Corporate people are fighting to make a profit, even if they have to sell you and everyone you know out to do it.

No organization is perfect, but unions are not the problem with our political system.

Why, Dangerfield,

That link appears to take you to the site for the Manhattan Chamber of Commerce. It also appears as thoough those businesses you mentioned are associated with the city Chamber and not the national Chamber, which is more or less nothing other than a lobbying association.

But you wouldn't ever try to be intentionally disengenuous or anything, would you?

Nah. I'll just take it on faith that you didn't know the difference between the two.

Good Morning Pat:

Speaking the truth again. It is an amazing thing that lack of knowledge is considered an asset in conservative circles. My how time has changed.

Ron;

How true, we see it here every day.

Would this be like the congressman, Hank Johnson (D-Ga), who is worried that Guam may tip over, or candidate Obama who visited all 57 states?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20001567-503544.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws

I heard Matt Taibi (sp?) last night on Countdown stating how "sad" it is that these teabaggers tend to vote for people who don't have their best interests at heart. I don't think it's "sad" any longer. I used to think that, but no more.

These people make me ill. They're voting for people who are freakin' clueless. They come to rallies with the most disgusting signs you ever want to see. It borders on KKK stuff.

I see so many Latino's on tv and I really admire them. They truly love this country and want to bring their children up here; they want to work, and work hard. They are respectful and they are intelligent. Same thing with African Americans. Dignified. Hard workers. Latinos and African Americans. They fight our wars. They don't complain.

These teabaggers show neither respect nor intelligence toward anyone or anything. They're worried about their future? Tough. They keep voting for these people who don't give a damn about them.

What do they expect? Blame President Obama? Why don't they try listening to him? He's on their side but they're too ignorant to realize it. I have completely lost patience with them.

John Boehner will be the next Speaker of the House. It's who they deserve. The same guy who walks around the House floor passing out lobbyist checks to legislators.

America. It used to be a place where people came to get an education. What happened to the teabaggers and their educations? They are of an age where they should have received a good one.

Now they don't care who gets one. This is who the teabaggers are. They will give money to the CEOs and foreign companies, knowing full well they want to ship jobs overseas. They want to shut down public schools.

Like I said, I have no sympathy for them any longer for their apprehensions. They helped cause it by voting for who they vote for. The rich politicians who are in government to help only the rich CEOs, who want to have either cheap labor or no labor.

Pick your poison. They aren't happy with making millions of dollars. Now it's billions.

I take the train every morning to work. You want to know who are the most polite passengers on the train? African American males. Always always polite and friendly.

I hear you Pat... there was a day not to long ago when the Republicans ran candidates...

Now they run tea baggin spectacle's...

It doen'st matter that these clowns are bat sh!t CRAZY!

It's only about WINNING AT ALL COSTS and consequences be damned!

Pat, Boston, MA.... "African American males" ??...According to Obama in his stump speeches the last 2 weeks or so.....the correct term is now "Black Folks"....get up to speed and be even more politically correct.

Right on US Navy, and Superlogi, Alan and Mike just confirmed it. Enough said.

Good Morning Pat,

Harry was being Harry as you say, how I wish he had a stronger personality, as it is only the loudmouths and their vicious minions who are being heard.

Doesn't matter that what they say, is full of lies and veiled treats, the proverbial squeaky wheel gets the grease, or in these cases, the headlines.

The voters are being played by the manipulations of wellheeled, well concealed puppetmasters. The average american voter has never been known for attention to detail, therefore, will once again vote for the ones the MSM do not ask the hard questions, what are you going to do to help this country move forward. Where is the plan? Give us something to compare.

That was beautiful, Pat. I have tears in my eyes. I can't believe it took me so long to figure out that you, Obama and the rest of the socialists in this country actually know what's good for me better than I do. Thank you so much for opening my eyes! I now realize that I should have been in favor of illegal aliens all along. Just letting ANYBODY into this country without checking them out first was something that should have warmed my heart from the beginning. Who cares if some of them are in gangs and are criminals? who cares if they kill an average of 25 people per week in this country? Who cares if many of them won't learn our national language and still consider themselves citizens of the counties they came form?

I also now realize that I should never strive to better myself and my family's financial situation. That would be greedy. And if I ever DO, I should give most of it to the government because they, like you, Obama and Matt Taibbi, know what's best for me and my money.

Thank you soooo much for that enlightenment, Pat! Coffee break is over now. I have to go earn some more money and email Matt Taibbi to ask him what I should do with my life.

Alan, NJ:

Would this be like the congressman, Hank Johnson (D-Ga), who is worried that Guam may tip over,

I saw that video, and he was clearly making a humorous comment. I guess that would go over the heads of humorless conservatives. Sharron Angle wasn't joking when she suggested that Harry Reid should be assassinated if she didn't win the election.

or candidate Obama who visited all 57 states?

He meant states and territories, obviously. He made a mild verbal flub while campaigning in the course of speaking thousands of times. So what? O'Donnell and Angle, et. al. have both shown they're appallingly ignorant of the Constitution they say they are going to defend if elected.

CU Farley

".....I now realize that I should have been in favor of illegal aliens all along. Just letting ANYBODY into this country without checking them out first was something that should have warmed my heart from the beginning."

CU...I've read Pat's post several times and I don't see where she mentioned illegas even once. So this means that the blacks and hispanics she's referring to are AUTOMATICALLY here illegally in your mind? Wow, that's a leap.

My reaction to her post is quite different than yours. Mine is happy and respectful, in return. Yours...well.....you just went negative on us. Is this because you don't trust anyone who "isn't like you"?

CU:

There was no mention of illegal aliens in Pat's post. However, in the interest of adding to your confusion, I point out that the Democratic solution to the illegal alien problem is virtually identical to the Republican solution. The only substantive difference between the two administrations is that President Obama is enforcing the current laws to a far greater extent than the previous administration.

How have you determined that "illegal aliens" kill 25 Americans per week. Do they leave their paperwork at the scene of the crime(s)? How do we come up with this statistic? "Will all illegal aliens who have killed someone this week, please raise your hand."

Here's some good news though. You don't have to strive to better yourself. You belong to one of those nasty unions that protects you no matter what. Ain't America great? You can even bad mouth the people who help you. Heaven knows, you didn't get where you are based on your intellect.

Vermont Girl,

I think Pat was looking to see where the Republican Educated folks were, and CU had to poke his head up to point out that HE didn't NEED no stinkin' education. It's all right there in the subtext. He is really an attention seeking troll; best to ignore and keep walking - it's probably contagious.

VermontGirl;

I have been reading your post for awhile and you are right on the money. Keep em coming I enjoy seeing another Vermonter here.

Have a great weekend.

Back at ya Navy.

Pat....sometimes they just make it soooo easy I can't resist...ya know?

Jody;

Happy Friday. It just keeps getting worst. I think the United States Chamber of Commerce needs to drop the US part. They are not promoting the United States, instead they are recommending that they move jobs and plants overseas at the expense of the working American.

Interesting segment on MSNBC/TV yesterday in how some states have lost tens of thousand of jobs since 1994 to present. These jobs still exist only they are now located in India, China, etc. What ever happend to taking care of America and its people?

Planned destruction of this country by the republicans and the US COC, sad that most people cannot see that we are being sold a bill of goods (not even an American "Bill of Goods" to boot).

The US COC has not responded to anything other than to say "trust us", yeah, right - when he!! freezes over.

Truly the US CoC no longer has any real interest in the "US". That's because the very wealthy no longer see the US middle class as anything but a hindrance on their ability to expand their fortunes. We are not fellow countrymen but an unnecessarily expensive workforce that would serve them better if only we were paid less. That's the long term strategy of Conservatism then, to convert us into low-paid workers with no real say in anything. With that the vibrancy and specialness of the United States will be lost, but what care they, they'll be richer than ever!

Drive By;

Too funny, I watch her and what a joke. Sounded just like SP, but her voice does not sound like finger nails on a chalk board. Only difference.

USN DV-ret. You should have heard her on Hannit'y whine-fest yesterday afternoon. She didn't sound like fingernais on a chalk board, but sure as hell DID sould like a little school girl who's friends just ditched her for the new girl in class, or something. What a baby!

Thanks to Sarah, I can't watch Fargo without wanting to jam nails into my ear drums.

drive-by-observer-

"finger nails on a chalkboard"

I saw the clip this morning of SP mocking the First Lady.

Michelle Obama is a highly educated woman of class. Palin is an uneducated , classless, clueless, money grubbing politician wannabe.

In the six years it took Palin to earn a bachelor’s degree Michelle Robinson had graduated with honors from Princeton University and Harvard Law School.

How dare she question Mrs. Obama’s sincerity and perspective about when she should have been “proud to be an American”.

There are plenty of African Americans who share Mrs. Obama sentiment…love this country and all that it stands for ideally. However, for many of us the ideal has not been our reality.

Less we forget that Michelle Robinson had to endure the humiliation of having her white freshman roommate at Princeton demand she be reassigned because she did not want to share quarters with a black person. For this to happen to an 18 year old who had excelled as a student in Chicago to come up against this type of racism must have been mind-blowing.

Now Palin wants to make fun of her!

Disgusting!

I can only think of one good use to put Sarah Palin's mouth to and it sure as hell doesn't involve her speaking.

That's strange. I figured the only republican you'd like to sexually assault would be DICK ARMEY....Get it? Hahahahahahaha.

Exodite Dragon

"I can only think of one good use to put Sarah Palin's mouth to and it sure as hell doesn't involve her speaking."

Careful, there, bud- I just finished eating.

Speaking of dick armies, who are all these 'tea baggers' in the news these days??

Didn't mean to make you choke on your chicken, Drive By. XD

Anyone else notice CU has an odd fascination with sexual assault and penis metaphors? Hmm...

Sheila- wha the hell was Palin's problem? (I didn't hear this episode....)

Michelle doesn't skin fish with her teeth? Participate in excocisims? What??

That is what this country is lacking, actual reporters. All we've got is pundits and talking heads. They don't have a clue how to challenge a politician, just except what they say as fact.

Da Noid-

You are right. That is not leadership. That is bull-sh!t and the GOP knows it.

What is sickening is that low information voters believe that stuff and make uninformed decisions to vote for the clowns that are espousing this non-sense.

Sheila,

I suppose you are the smartest voter in the U.S.....This slogan is old and tired and played out.

You and your ilk believe that anyone who does not bow at the alter of liberalism..oops...Progressive whatever..., is dumb, stupid and don't know sh!t.

WTF is an uninformed decision? Is it one that does not adhere to your beliefs?

People are free to vote anyway they want.....Just because you and I vote differently does not mean one knows more than the other.

ITM

Careful there with the PROJECTIONS, buddy. I don't think Sheila feels that way about anyone who isn't progressive. But you pretty much popped your turkey head up so we could all feel that way about you, now didn't you? PS. Imma' go with, we're pretty sure we know more than you, especially the factual stuff. Just sayin'.

Let's see how many Democratic House and Senate seats are saved and voters moved by the machinations of the COC and the Tea Party.

I'm willing to bet that the exit polling on November 2nd will show the electorate's attention was focused elsewhere.

But, by all means, gang...continue to march.

One hundred per cent correct, as usual.

Of course, the Democrats cannot run on the economy, because they, and Obama, have done such a spectacular job of taking a bad situation, and making it worse. They are reduced to propounding a fantasy, such as three million theoretical jobs created, (I suppose those would be the nonexistent shovel ready jobs on which nearly a trillion dollars was wasted).

So, since they cannot run on the most important issue, they resort to the Rules for Radicals playbook. It is not working.

In our current media landscape, where traditional media outlets and newspapers are downsizing and going bankrupt, their "economies" have left them vulnerable to being bought.

As a result, we are being sold a bill of goods, like "who is giving the money doesn't matter".

Well, if it doesn't matter, why is it so important to be anonymous?

Strange.

no joe, mixed bag and dangerfield, now that's three real dandies telling us how things should work. But it does make for a good laugh on a Friday morning.

Your comment reminded me of the Three Stooges trying to bake a cake or stuff a turkey or fix the plumbing in the bathroom. lol

"Not can of peas, can'a'peas!!

"Every time he sees a mouse he goes crazy." "Why?" "'Cause his father was a rat."
- Larry, Fred Kelsey & Moe (HORSES' COLLARS, 1935)

Nashville_fan: Great post. The media knows this. The GOP knows this. The independents know this. Even the clueless teabaggers know this. They don't care.

You know, Nash, there was a time when members of a political party recognized when a talking point had failed, and moved on to another. That seems to have changed.

I guess when you cannot tout the economic gains you have produced, three million, theoretical, nonexistent shovel ready jobs, notwithstanding, you move on to. . .

HCR, which the public did not want, which the public wants repealed, to . . .

Foreign policy triumphs? Nah. Iran is closer than ever to having nukes, and Obama blew a golden opportunity to help the people of that benighted country overthrow a lunatic regime; North Korea is still working on their nukes; the mid-East peace talks broke off abruptly with absolutely no movement, so. . .

It's "create a controversy"!

Of course, the only people talking about it are yourselves. Well, then.

Of course, the only people talking about it are yourselves. Well, then.

If this were in fact true... then why are you so concerned?

I mean if the buying of American elections is such a non-issue to you NJNB then what's the harm in letting us induldge ourselves?

What you you so afraid of?

no joe:

Corporations in pursuit of quick profits destoyed our economy. Those same corporations are in control of the media and anonymously funding campaigns.

The selling of America to corporations, foreign and domestic, is THE ISSUE of the day.

The elevation of corporations to "persons" by the Supreme Court is THE ISSUE of the day.

The old system of narrative building, propoganda peddling, and using nontroversies to change the subject is crumbling right before your eyes.

And THAT is the CHANGE that we can believe in.

And we don't need "corporate media" permission to discuss it.

Strange, a huge part of the Conservative universe is talking about something that "no one is talking about." Conservatives here on FR seem to be awfully touchy about trying to bring transparency to the world of anonymously-funded attack ads. Republicans in Congress made sure that bills to bring sunlight to the darkness died. Glenn Beck betrayed all of his talk about Tea Party Populism by giving big money to the CoC and urging his listeners to do the same. http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010104114/tea-party-populism-rip-beck-backs-pro-tarp-pro-stimulus-chamber-commerce Sean Hannity gave Karl Rove a platform to defend anonymous attacks by the CoC, partially funded by foreign money. http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/transcript/rove-responds-dnc039s-039stupid039-foreign-funding-allegations BOTH the Limbaugh brothers are talking about it. http://dailyrushbo.com/?p=861 and http://townhall.com/columnists/DavidLimbaugh/2010/10/12/obamas_chamber_smear_is_business_as_usual

MY but Conservatives are anxious to defend their ability to use anonymous money to attack political opponents, all while denying that they're doing so.

Nash, this nonsense is the very definition of a non troversy.

You keep at it, though.

Meanwhile, the electorate is more concerned with the revelation that we wasted nearly a trillion dollars on nonexistent shovel ready jobs.

As is the majority of the electorate did not know, already, that Obama is inept.

"The old system of narrative building, propaganda peddling, and using nontroversies to change the subject is crumbling right before your eyes."

I agree completely...Just not the way you mean...:)

The stimulus is working.

The bank bailout and auto bailout worked (with profit).

The only thing you have left at this point is lies and bitterness.

You cannot refute the fact that our country is corporately owned and operated and the policies enacted are those that enrich the corporate sponsors and not America.

The voodoo economic policies that you continue to advocate did not work and have never worked.

Your only function is to distract and deceive.

The truth is not on your side, and you know it.

Going back to an earlier statement you made, Joe, about a "golden opportunity" to instigate regime change in Iran...well.

Excuse me?

I agree with your other points (and I think Nash is getting a little paranoid in his/her/its rebuttals) but to say we had any kind of opportunity to overturn the status quo o'er yonder is crazy. What would you have had us do, march already-exhausted troops from Baghdad to Tehran to force the issue? Intervene in the affairs of a nation whose youth would revile American involvement instead of welcome it with open arms?

There was no opportunity in Iran. I think cooler heads prevailed in Washington on that problem.

No, E.D., I was not talking about military action, but about the kind of support we gave Leck Walenska and Solidarity in the 1980's, which proved to be the turning point in the Cold War.

Then, Reagan, Thatcher, and Pope John Paul II smuggled in mimeograph machines, ( cutting edge technology for the time), helped pass messages for street demonstrations, and gave other aid and support, all while publicly agreeing to heed Walenska's oft repeated cries 'not to interfere with matters in Poland'.

Considering the advances in technology, there is much we could have done to aid the demonstrators.

What we did was nothing at all.

NJ, thanks for reminding me that it's time once again to point out you're just using a Conservative talking point when you say that. I forgot to check my watch but you're regular as clockwork with that long debunked narrative. http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf?L=HPADV2&C=ZANDIBLINDER&P=LEARNMORE

About 100 days in a row you've said that and the consensus of Economists is that you're STILL wrong.

Exodite Dragon:

I am just following the money where it leads, if that makes me paranoid, guility as charge.

P.S. I am woman, hear me roar! :o)

And then Obama would've been chided for helping his "Muslim friends" and clearly "trying to destroy America" by aiding Iran in the midst of a domestic economic crisis.

There is always the possibility that Iran would've found out about our theoretical subterfuge and outed us on the world stage, which would've immediatley been painted by Al-Jazeera and other foreign, anti-American media that the US isn't interested in the democratic process but empire building and so forth and so on.

You know precisely the kind of noise I'm talking about and just how deafening it would've been, even had your option been taken w/o mistakes made. If the option to repeat Poland in Iran ever came up in the White House, I'm certain the risks versus the potential rewards would've been deemed too great.

I know that seems cynical, but let's face it - our track record on foreign intervention in recent memory isn't exactly the rosiest.

Exo:

(and I think Nash is getting a little paranoid in his/her/its rebuttals)

Good thing you dropped that nasty parenthetical comment on Nash who, by the way, is a perfectly rational woman, and not Dangerfield. You'd be hearing about how he'd knock your teeth out if you were in the same room with him.

Nash: I promise I'll send the men in white suits shortly to take you to your thetan re-education center. XD

Houston!: Contary to your belief, I respect Nash. I just don't always agree with her. ;)

Houston, you are becoming "Mary's little lamb"...you are too smitten...I'm flattered but also a little creeped out...

And I said your nasty attitude would have you looking for your teeth on the floor in the real world...and I stand by it...no threat implied, as I would never want to meet you, just an observation...

and everywhere that Danger went, Little Houston! was sure to go...

ED;

I agree and that is my point exactly.

I think you should knock my teeth in the next time we disagree, dangerfield. It's obviously the only real solution to conflicting debate in America today. :p

@Mr. Navy: Thank you so much. :)

"If you were a man, you'd come up here and knock my teeth out...if you were 1/2 a man, you'd come up here and knock HALF of my teeth out..."

Brother Theodore

Figuratively speaking, you're on Dragon!...:)

I respect your opinion, E.D., and am not dismissing the dangers of aiding the Iranian demonstrators. Had it been a half hearted measure, you are absolutely right, it would have failed and made matters even worse.

However, had we a commander in chief with a competent staff to advise him, we had an opportunity to help the demonstrators, and win hearts and minds in that country, as well.

As far as 'helping his Muslim friends' goes, I, for one, could not possibly care less if he helped his martian friends, as long as they then became this country's friends.

I guess I'm a little weird like that.

Physical contact with a plaguebearer is never wise.

Not so, Joe! Would that more people didn't care about such trivialities.

What I was speaking of, though, was the flak he'd have gotten and the way the powers-that-be (local or international) would've spun all angles of the issue to suit individual needs.

Maybe you're right. Maybe the support staff are collectively too incompetent to handle secretly supporting an indirect overthrow of Iran, but I can't help but feel that domestic issues presently outweigh foreign ones. I can antagonize Obama for a lot, but I simply can't antagonize him for not acting on this.

Even for a horned rat?

Gonna have to check with the expert on this one...:)

And here is where E.D. And I shake hands and thank each other for the excellent debate.

I'm not naming names, but there are some people on this board who could possibly pick up a few pointers on how this is done.

@Joe: Quite. We tip our hats; we don't bite our thumbs.

@dangerfield: I'm actually a hive tyrant.

Dangerfield:

And I said your nasty attitude would have you looking for your teeth on the floor in the real world...and I stand by it...no threat implied, as I would never want to meet you, just an observation...

And as I said before, you'd be in jail for assault and battery, or maybe a mental facility if the judge thought you were two sandwiches short of a picnic as you seem to be. It never ceases to amaze me how you can whine about civilitity and ad hominem attacks in the same posts you make deranged comments.

See nojoe and the dragon above to see how intelligent reasonable people disagree, and think on how your obnoxious posts and attitude are a turn-off to most reasonable people, me included.

Stalking me and trying to assuage some long ago ego bruise is kind of sad.

Dangerfield

Stalking me and trying to assuage some long ago ego bruise is kind of sad.

Uh, not exactly long ago. I think it was the day before yesterday that you were "hypothetically" threatening to knock my teeth out for saying that you seem to love posting links to polls that have bad news for Democrats (which you do). "Hypothetically" speaking, I'd say your hypothetical violent response to a rather mild observation like that would be a symptom of criminal insanity or at the very least, a sure sign that you need anger management therapy. As for your complaints about being "stalked", your paranoid delusions are kind of sad, too. (Dangerfield will probably be threatening to come after me with a chain saw for that last crack).

Christ, Houston, it's the Internet. Get over it already.

One thing I've learned after more'n a decade of blogging: don't take anything personal or seriously out in cyberspace.

The Nash-ing of teeth (lol) is about ANONYMOUS donors to the political process, foreign and domestic.

The strenuous effort to make the issue only about the Chamber of Commerce (which has already lied about their level of foreign sponsorship) or the foreigness of the funds is a red herring.

Nice try.

Like Jon Stewart said, it's the left's answer to the downtown mosque...and both are pretty ridiculous...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-october-12-2010-eric-cantor

Ha. Nash, I'm gald you took that intro as the pun and fun intended.

pepawjoe, since you're having trouble remembering your High School Civics, let me help you. http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Filibuster_Cloture.htm

The minority rules in this case, and the minority of Conservative Republicans don't CARE what anyone else thinks. They only see that the wealthy Conservative elites and corporations will pay handsomely to buy offices for them.

I'm guessing that the House is going to change hands. Senate is gonna be close, but I have a feeling that Delaware GOPers ruined our chances for taking over the Senate. O'Donnell may be one of the worst Senate candidate choices ever. Just my $0.02.

"Let the adults take over."

OK.

Can you name a few?

Hiya Grimey!

Thanks for dropping by... you know when I don't hear from you for a while I get a bit worried! ;0)

Have the kids picked out their Halloween costumes yet? Hope the weather is better for them than it was last year!

Have a great weekend and try to stop by over at the Dew Drop Inn! IR has a standing invitation for you with the doorman! lol

Thanks for checking in, Frank. We're always happy to see you when you can join the crowd for a while.

Frank:

Thanks for the side note. You are a very reasonable man. Also, you analysis is very close on target. Senate could be 52-48; Maybe 51-49. You could be right that the House will go Republican. Maybe 221-214.

A lesson I've learned this past year is that it is much easler to make calculations and predictions in the business world than in the political world. In politics things change comes quickly and unexpectedly.

Feisty...Yup...kids have their Halloween costumes picked out. They were mapping out a route through the neighborhood the other day. Weather is "usually" pretty good for us at Halloween so hope it stays that way.

John...Thanks my friend.

Ron: Yeah...I see two very closely divided chambers. The House may resemble a mosh pit!!! I'm guessing with the Presidency on the line and 2 evenly divided chambers of Congress, 2012 is going to be an insane campaign season.

Enjoy hearing your perspective Grimey have a good weekend.

Hey Grimey Red is right we always have a pitcher of margaritas chilling down at the Inn special for you. I made sure that The Bouncer knows to keep that Tattoo Artist that Red keeps trying to slip in on us outside too. Glad to see you and hoping you and yours have a good weekend

I made sure that The Bouncer knows to keep that Tattoo Artist that Red keeps trying to slip in on us outside too

You are JUST NO fun IR! *pouts* ;0(

Ross Perot may or may not have been a Democrat, but the entire infrastructure of his campaign was ,made up of Democrats, who left, right after the election, to go back to their regular jobs at the DNC. Look it up, as the news is too old for a citation. It was, however, well reported AFTER the election. I knew ,any people who were taken in by the nut from Texas, who had a personal grudge against G.H.W. Bush, which was rumored, but never revealed.

Who can forget his dropping out of the race when Clinton pulled ahead, then getting back in when Bush pulled ahead of Clinton? Well, those with selective memories, I suppose.

Yes, I voted for Bush in that election. My reason was that we were at a critical juncture in the Mid-East, with talks that could have led to lasting peace in the region. That opportunity was lost, perhaps forever.

I did, however, vote to re elect Clinton. I liked what he did after the 1994 mid terms.

I wasn't old enough to vote in the 1992 election, but I do remember it as we followed it in high school. My parents were very angry with Perot, constantly saying that he was just in it to cost Bush the election. I often wondered what things would have been like had Perot won. But I think things turned out pretty well, particularly after 1994 when we had divided government and the economy was humming along.

OMG: Frank--You are a young guy. I didn't realize that! Such wisdom for a young man!

Ron...LOL...I graduated high school in the mid 90's. As for wisdom...you should hear me on Friday and Saturday nights...my wisdom increases by the drink! ;-) Have a great weekend my friend.

Nice use of a Conservative storyline Richard. Why is the business I work for making a plan to obtain $100M in NEW business during 2010, with politics and policy not even entering into the conversation? C'mon, the "uncertainty" narrative fell on its face MONTHS ago.

Demand is the issue. The middle class has been run so thoroughly into the ground by our 3 decades long Conservative economic experiment that as a group we just don't have the money to restart the economy. Outsourcing jobs to other countries as the Chamber of Commerce promotes has made it even worse. The economy is weak because Conservatism destroyed it. It's slow to recover because Conservatism destroyed it. It's prone to enormous bubbles because Conservative deregulation destabilized it. Conservatism failed. Utterly.

So where the 90's, the CLINTON economy DEMS remember so well.... part of the conservative experiment?

Actually I don't remember Clinton well. His DLC experiment in triangulation and making the Democratic Party "Republican Lite" was a dismal failure. He signed the NAFTA treaty that George HW Bush negotiated so as not to appear "business unfriendly". He renominated Republican Alan Greenspan for the same reason, and Greenspan became more responsible than anyone else for mishandling the economy during the GW Bush years. DADT was bad policy then, worse policy now.

His goal was to get some socially Liberal positions established by being Conservative in his economic management. The result was a coninuance of Conservative economics that proved damaging over time with very little social progress to show for it.

DADT.

IS a good policy

This idea that the MILITARY is the place to express your individuality is rather silly

NO one forced into the military...

Gays who have joined, new the rules when they joined...

Jorge

I couldn't disagree with you more. Asking ANY American to lie and fake who they are is atrocious. Asking them to lay down their life for their country while forcing them to lie is worse than that. It is a bad policy. I have family who have served honorably and with 'known' gay individuals and it did NOT affect their service one bit.

The time for homophobic histrionics is BEHIND us. The country is ready to move forward according to "...a February 2010 Quinnipiac University national poll shows 57% of American voters favor gays serving openly, compared to 36% opposed, and 66% say the current policy of not allowing openly gay personnel to serve is discrimination, opposed to 31% who see no discrimination..." (from wikipedia - but the poll was Quinnipiac's)

It doesn't matter a flip what the "American voter" thinks about gays serving openly in the military. This is a military readiness issue. Ask the soldiers and sailors what they think and you will find that 99% of them DO NOT want to serve with gays. But if gays keep their mouth's shut (in more ways than one), maybe they will not be found out. And with 'don't ask, don't tell', gays are still to be discharged if they are outed, as it should be.

So you think it's ok for them give their lives, as long as they continue lying. Usually the people who scream the loudest against gays are usually gay themselves.

Why are people so busy dictating what happens in other peoples bedroom or what they should or shouldn't do with their bodies? We want these people to fight for the freedom we refuse to give them.

We need to know who is paying money to influence our elections, whether they be foreign or domestic.

The attempt to focus in on the word "foreign" is a red herring.

Pointing out that those in the media who are direct beneficiaries of these huge ad buys in the middle of a recession don't have a problem with it is less than persuasive.

Who is giving the money?

What do they expect to receive in return for their investment?

It really is just that simple.

So Bill, if foreign money goes into the account that pays for anonymous attack ads, does it pass the smell test that foreign money DOESN'T pay for such ads?

When the Citizens United decision was handed down virtually everyone, Conservative, Liberal, and in between was in agreement that this was a horrible decision and corrosive to our democracy. Now that it's producing a 9 to 1 funding advantage for Republican attacks all the Conservatives are defending the practice. So much for the GOP being the party of principles.

Bill, Fairfax VA

The MSM has dismissed their allegations not because the issues raised aren't important, but because there is no proof whatsoever to support these allegations. So says the NYT, Time Magazine, FactCheck.org among many others. So apparently, ThinkProgress is right and the rest of the world is wrong – a classic example of the extreme leftist mindset. But hey, having no hard proof really doesn't matter to these people. Because it's obvious to them that the perpetrators of these crimes are so darn clever they can cover their tracks in ways that will never be exposed by mere mortals. Sheesh.

Does no proof resonate why there is none according to factcheck.org?

You may be surprised to learn that 80% of Republicans and 81% of Independents, believe voters have a right to know who is paying for ads for a particular candidate.

Yes, voters do care about secret cash funding elections! 84 % say they have a "right to know" who's bankrolling the ads, an overwhelming number; Bill.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2010/10/yes_voters_do_care_about.html

Bill and the conservatives on this site, just keep telling yourselves there's nothing to see with the US chamber and no proof. You know if you say it enough times you'll eventually believe it.

That's all we've heard all week long, there's no proof there's not proof there's not proof, well this time conservatives your in the minority most of the country wants to know where the money is coming from.

It's kind of like Obama being a muslim. No right wingers can prove that he is. So apparently it's up to he and his liberal groupies to prove that he isn't. The burden is on you socialist/muslim lovers.

I'm waiting for the AFL-CIO and Moveon.org to disclose all of their foreign funding.

Twenty years at Trinity United Christian Church is enough to establish him as a radical, but not enough to establish him as a Christian?

That's the thing about Conservative arguments. They have neither reason nor conscience.

Bill - Well said! Also NBC. CBS and ABC all ran the story when it first came out. All said there was no proof (including the WH). So the story died, regardless of the amount of times the President and VP screech about it.

John,

I find your post particularly sad . . . you are willing to dismiss something because the news media tells you to.

It is a fact that there are millions of dollars being donated anonymously into our elections this year.

It is a fact that all of that money is going into media outlets . . . do you think that might influence their desire to investigate?

It is a fact that none of this was possible until the Supreme Court declared that corporations were people with rights of free speech. Do you feel that you are more or less equal to a corporation in influence?

This is not about politics. This is about the very bedrock of this country.

The current system lets those with money control everything unchallenged.

That's not the America our founding fathers envisioned.

Nash -

If you think that money is not deeply rooted and has always controled politics, you are quite delusional.

The fact that the Democrats are going to lose many seats in congress has cause the Democrats go in panic mode. In a country where you are innocent until proved guilty, the President has called the CoC guilty and demanded that they prove themselves innocent.

You are quite right about our founding fathers, with the current administration, I am sure they are rolling in their graves.