Terrific post. The US Chamber of Commerce and republicans continue their actions while denying them and the MSM chooses to stand by and watch.

Well done Feisty: Time to start boycotting businesses that belong to the CoC. I'm beginning to wonder why MSM doesn't want to talk about it. They could at least investigate it and report on their investigation. Well documented post.

Nice expose on the "Global Big Business Chamber of Commerce". These are the people who are reallly important to Conservatives everywhere. The rest of us are just a labor force to be exploited as cheaply as possible.

Feisty;

Sorry this posted below and should have been here.

Right on, I was going to say something similar but yours is better.

It is wrong to let even one dollar of foreign money dictate our political elections. This is the United States of America, not China, India etc. What is even more deceitful is the 200 Million from these "Special Interest Groups" like the US Chamber of Commerce, American Crossroads etc that are being used to buy Senators and Congressmen to push an Agenda that we do not even know what it is. We have no idea who is paying what to whom.

We have a dam# good idea when we examine the voting records of the republicans (since 90% of the donations are being used to fund attack ads against the deomcrats) who is benefiting from this money and it is not the middle class.

There is a reason why the republicans did not want a Disclosure Bill, Jobs Bills, American Job Bill, Health Care Reform or Financial Reform. These bills would go against the interest of the people that are funding this 200 Million Dollars.

We, as Americans, need to know where this money is coming from, what is the agenda of those people and how much are they putting up. This is true for Republicans, Democrats and Independents alike.

We are entitled to Full Disclosure from the people we are voting for. Anything less is just unacceptable.

Good morning Feisty,

Great work and I suggest we determine what products these companies make and sell then boycott them. One of the Koch Bros. companies is Georgia Pacific, look for that when you are buying paper products and bypass them...Brawny Towels is one of them.

It's ironic that the Chinese Communist Party elites are in cahoots with the American corporatist elites. And the Tea Partiers are unwittingly contributing to this unholy alliance while they parade around with posters depicting President Obama as Chairman Mao. American corporations love the virtual slave labor they can get in China. The only way American workers can compete is for them to become slaves, too. Then the US will be a "workers' paradise" just like China, except it will be a Republican workers paradise.

No!!!!! Don't boycott Brawny Towells!! I'm the handsome guy in the flannel shirt thats on the front of each plastic package. If the two dozen libs who frequent this board boycott my livelihood, I won't have as much money to contribute to conservative causes!

I'm just kidding. I'm not really that guy. In fact, the guy on the package is probably a male model and most likely gay. It's probably gonna be he and his partner (trying to save up for their marriage) that you're going to hurt.

Actually, you'll probably just hurt the middle-class workers at the factory that makes Brawny towells. Probably some blue-collar, white people who lean conservative so who cares?

Seems to me we had Chinese influencing elections for quite a while. Anyone remember 1996. Same accusations different party. Hell we do not have to go back that far, just back to 2008. Anonymous donations then as well, only difference again was the party receiving these donations.

Good post Feisty -

The GOP, they call themselves the Party of Lincoln, I would say more like Hoover. No concern for the masses, the poor, the non-whites, the sick, our children etc. etc. They love and care for only themselves, big business and big money. Every one else be damned.

I'm afraid we're headed for at least 2 years of hard and hateful times ahead of us. We still need to keep our heads up and keep on fighting.

Please you Democrats, GET OUT AND VOTE.

CU Farley

OK, you made me laugh.

Wow what a surprise. The usual group of liberals patting each other on the back for what they call "good posts' then ganging up and vilifying the poor conservative who dares to voice his opinion. Nice work guys!

Ron Indiana: Well done Feisty: Time to start boycotting businesses that belong to the CoC

So what's the Libby Boycott list looking like these days? You got all the CoC businesses boycotted, the banks, the health insurance companies, anyone that makes cars (except GM, which the government owns), any big-box store like Walmart or Costco, BP, and all Republican owned businesses (how you know which ones these are is a mystery).

That's quite a list. So, where exactly do you Libs shop? Or do you just live off your backyard farms?

I think that would be great if someone could take the time to research what products are created by these organizations, so that they can be boycotted by the consumers. Hopefully you will be more successful than I am.

I am my own little army of one, I boycott anything made by GE because of their support of President Obama and their ownership of NBC. So far I haven't been very successful, but it makes me happy. Unfortunately I have a husband that has just purchashed stock in GE. So we are laughing all the way to the bank. I get a little self satisfaction due to my personal boycott, but feel even better when I look at my 401K balance.

Hope none of the business you are getting ready to boycott employee union members. Could really put a dent in the old pocket books of those you so staunchly support.

hey everything will be ok when nov.2 get here..it chock me to see how people go to school and rec. degrees and become a dumbass.hey news media can some one put up on the screen all obama's record on military service or his record on running a major organization other than community whatever? do you really see, how these stupid ass make the simple thing look hard to coverup their corruption.

Brian,

If you were not so pathetic you would almost be funny. I am entitled to my opinion just as much as you are so grow up. If you do not like it here do yourself a favor and move on. It may make you a little happier.

STTS

...a left-leaning article from a left-leaning organization...

...big surprise...

...while they & the dems point their fingers at the 'evil' chamber of commerce & the reps, their other hand is behind their back accepting foreign contributions from the Workers World Party...

...gotta love the blind partisanship...

Hope you Libs dont shop at wal-mart or drive a small ford vehicle!

I seen a bumper sticker on a guys ford ranger that said "Buy American A$$hole" if only that dumba$$ knew his ranger was made in Mexico. Probably a Liberal union guy who wonders why he is out of work.

Hey Fiesty....seems like you forgot to mention that the Chamber of Commerce already defended itself against these claims....something which the unions have yet to do.

The LAST thing Obama or the democrats want to do is have someone looking into their foreign campaign funding. You can ask Clinton or Gore all about that.

This really puts the lie to the Conservative narrative claiming that Capitalism and freedom are really one and the same. China functions very well as a Capitalist society with very little that any of us would recognize as freedom.

I am my own little army of one, I boycott anything made by GE because of their support of President Obama and their ownership of NBC

Good for you Janet!

It does beg the question though, if you boycott anything GE/NBC then what the hell are you doing here?

Jesus... don't any of you think before you hit submit?

BTW: I can't recall picking up an item and seeing 'Made by G.E' unlike the 'Made in China' which is found on almost everything in this country these days!

janet-489369

That's funny, I boycott Florida orange juice because the Republican Women of Florida urged people to boycotte Oprah Winfrey in 2008! Really.

I also (mostly) boycott ABC News because of the Presidential debate they moderated where they kept questioning Obama's patriotism. Good riddance Charlie Gibbs.

Oh, I also boycott my local CBS affiliate, which is owned by a right-wing conglomerate, because they aired an anti-Kerry documentary in 2004. I had been a 20 year viewer of that station up until then, but they are dead to me now.

I took a little time and did some research, Georgia Pacific does have some union employees, so don't think you really want to boycott them. Unfortunately I can't look up all Chamber of Commerce businesses to determine if they employee union members.

Here is a scenario I can see happening. Liberals boycott Chamber of Commerce businesses, those businesses loose money and are forced to layoff union employees. Then some of the most liberal posters on this site go crazy because "big business" had the audacity to lay off employees. When in reality the layoffs were due to boycotts started by the liberal posters on this site.

RickGaffron:

Seems to me we had Chinese influencing elections for quite a while. Anyone remember 1996. Same accusations different party.

Those were _accusations_. These are facts. Chinese corporations who want to outsource American jobs to China are supporting an American organization that lobbies for outsourcing American jobs and that finances political ads for Republicans who will vote for outsourcing jobs. Whether Chinese money is directly financing the campaign ads is irrelevant. The US Chamber of Commerce serves the interests of foreign entities, including the Chinese Communist Party, by running campaign ads that serve those interests.

Foreign Dollars Playing a Role in OUR Elections Here in America:

Why is nobody mentioning the PREPAID CREDIT CARDS that helped fund OBAMA's campaign from countries in the middle east in 2008???? These were funds from other nations that were impossible to trace due to being placed on a prepaid credit card and then donating the entire amount to Obama's Campaign. There were hundreds of these donations coming in for OBAMA and the Democrats leading up to the 2008 elections. So for those DEMOCRATS and LIBERALS who are so upset about the POSSIBILITY of Foreign Dollars being given to Republicans (I say POSSIBILITY because there is still no evidence of this, it is ALL SPECULATION), let's have this be part of the conversation as well since Obama raised lot's of money from outside the country. It is not just ONE party that would be guilty of this if it is in fact happening again with Republicans.

AGAIN, MSNBC IS POSTING THESE ARTICLES ONLY AFTER SITTING ON NBCNEWS.COM WHERE ONLY LIBERALS GO FOR NEWS, THEN THEY MOVE IT OVER TO MSN.COM WHERE MORE PEOPLE WILL SEE IT SINCE IT IS A HOME PAGE FOR MANY COMPUTERS. NICE TRY LIBERALS, BUT ALLOWING YOUR BIASED READERS TO POST FIRST DOES NOT HELP TO SWAY PUBLIC OPINION. A CATEGORY 4 HURRICANE IS ABOUT RIGHT WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO THE DEMOCRATS COME NOVEMBER 2ND.

Hey Fiesty....seems like you forgot to mention that the Chamber of Commerce already defended itself against these claims....something which the unions have yet to do

Hey Joe – Really?

The COC has defended themselves HOW? And going on Fox Noise and preaching to the choir doesn’t count! Imagine my surprise that I can't find a peep out of them other than on the extension of the Republican party also known as Faux News?

On the other hand the Union President Leo Gerard has repeatedly stated that their BOOKS are open for review and challenge anyone who wants to take a look to do so!

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/leo-gerard-challenges-chamber-commerce-ope

When will you learn that we have moved beyond believing anything you say... because *gasp* 'you say so'? I prefer to do my homework rather than rely on gossip and hearsay!

AZChzhd "The usual group of liberals patting each other on the back for what they call "good posts' then ganging up and vilifying the poor conservative who dares to voice his opinion."

Stick around, the rightwingers start piling in the door around 4pm EST, and they are NASTY! Check out yesterday's later posts.

I boycott any corporation, its goods or services, owned or operated by Ted Turner or George Soros. I like to do my part however I can :o)).

Tick-tock, tick-tock......T-minus two weeks and counting.......

"....at least a Catagory 4........."

Um, Fiesty? When was the last time you shopped for appliances? 'Cause, GE makes a whole line of them. Says so, right on the front.

Myself, I'm a Whirlpool girl. . .

Amy

Most of them cant comment till 4pm cause their working.

How about instead of boycotting or selecting what NOT to buy, create a list of what TO buy. Such as this one.

It is a list of Made in the USA products.

http://www.americansworking.com/

Way to much attacking here and in the end we not only all have to get along, but want the same thing. Economic and social prosperity.

And I will give Brianb credit for one thing by asking, How do I get on the First Read list to get the article an hour before everyone else? I would be a lot of fun to do some research and get the first post......

Brian B - Is a Right Wing Whiner Baby Nut......WAWAWAWA!!!

Brian,

I have noticed that Feisty is always the first to post on here also.........looks like a paid shill with rather lenghty "documentation" to play "the boogeyman is going to get you"..........totally intended to distract from upcoming, massive, Democratic losses. This week's flavor.....back to the innuendos and assertions about the Chamber of Commerce.

Then the same ones chime-in and it's just a little "Democratic coffee klatsch" complete with birthday greetings and salutations. Still, it appears very much CONTRIVED and set up.

By the way, has Feisty played the race card today ? Yet ??

I find it honestly saddening to see some of the posts today. I would a better educational experience if people could stick to the topic, not just back pat and attack each others position.

I'm sorry to say that the commentary is getting out of control.

If anyone who has anything to hide is Obama and his gang of thugs who:

refuse to show Obama's contributions from 2008,

who crafted healthcare bill in secracy,

who refuse to show Obama's birth cirtificate,

who deal with unions, socialsts and communists in secracy,

who say anything to win election and deal with businesses, local or foreign, behind closed doors,

the list goes on.

I love jumping into janet's little world. So it works this way does it janet? If Liberals boycott, then it will cause their Liberal world to collapse, but if "teabaggers" boycott, everyone makes more money? Really?

There are numerous products in the drug store for your heartburn.

The lies continue from the republicans this morning.

Everyone talks about the Chamber of Commerce and the overseas money lets talk about Clinton's money he received from China or Obama's money OVER a MILLION DOLLARS from BP oil or the money he received and then they bend over for his ban on drilling. Give me a break. We need to check facts the Dems get more overseas moneys then the REPs. The only thing we are entitled to is to be FREE and the pursuit of happiness NOT GOVERNMENT hand outs. Do you all think that the DEMs have kept the blacks and other minorities under there thumbs long enough. Free money only leads to slothisum. Get up and fight for your freedom not for hand outs.

Hey, if you want to keep jobs in the USA, make it worthwhile for the businesses to do so. Most reasonable business owners would prefer to keep their manufacturing in the USA if it makes financial sense.

Instead of a bunch of whiners jumping on MSNBC and screaming that there should be a law against outsourcing work, maybe the government should sit down with the business owners and figure out what can be done to keep more jobs here.

Simply passing a law or increasing a tarrif is the absolute wrong way to address the issue.

A friend of mine had an idea for a simple invention to help fishermen and the device was simple and cheap. The problem he had was it could not be made in the USA at a cost that would allow him to actually sell it at a reasonable price. He found a manufacturer is China that made it cheap enough for him to sell at a reasonable price. He now is making money & paying taxes on that income, the stores that sell the product are making money & paying taxes on that income. If not for outsourcing, there would be no product to buy and nothing for the government to tax.

To all the folks whining about Feisty getting the first post:

Ever thought about getting here a little earlier than usual?

Just a thought.

But of course, then you would have to have an original thought of your own to be first . . . easier to just complain about Feisty's posts, right?

"Stick around, the rightwingers start piling in the door around 4pm EST, and they are NASTY! Check out yesterday's later posts."

That's probably because they were at work during the day...:)

I find it very interesting that the Democrats would NEVER disclose their sources of income in the past and now it is SOOO important that the Repubs. do. They still haven't disclosed their own sources completely. For you folks with short memories, I find it much more worrisome that Bill Clinton allowed the Chinese to obtain technology from us to enable them to successfully launch satellites (and missiles) into orbit, a feat they never were able to do without us. What a coincidence that now they are amongst the top two contributors to the building of his legacy library! It is time to get rid of these Democrats and their Socialist ways.

Fiesty, Hate to tell you, but GE sold NBC to Comcast-----keeping right up with those current affairs aren't we? As for boycotting the COC, a starvation diet will get it done. Did they let you out again?

The main reason that the MSM is not investigating where the money is coming from through the USCOC is that they, the MSM are the ones that are receiving this money and if they started investigating where it was coming from then the taps would be turned off. Do you really think that a Media Company is going to harm it's chances at getting in on the millions of dollars that are flowing in this year's election runup?

As far as Unions go, THEY have to disclose every donation as to it's source as the Repub Union Busters have made sure of so as to try to discredit those sources of income by applying various pressures against them.

The fact, yes FACT, remains that there is a lot of money flowing to the Repubs through these illicit channels that were made 'legal' through the SCOTUS decision on Citizens United and some large portion of it is coming from foreign companies that want to change our laws here or at least keep them friendly to them so that they can continue to fleece the American taxpayers of their dollars. If the Chamber of Commerce has 'nothing to hide' then why are they not disclosing their donors?

On another note, there is the very interesting question on whether the donations to these groups are having taxes paid on them. If the donation is over $13k then a 30% gift tax needs to be paid, if the money is being given to do specific things, such as the donator saying "Use this money for attack ads" then under the 501 (c) rules that donator MUST be disclosed.....So, which is it, a taxable gift or a donation for a specific purpose? If it is one and they are not paying taxes on it, that is tax evasion, if it is the other and they are not disclosing then it is an Elections Fraud! I truly hope that this gets properly investigated by the Justice Dept and the IRS as well as the Elections Committee just so that we can be sure that no OTHER laws are being broken here!

True reasons why coporations outsource (whether they are run by Republican or a liberal):

High labor costs in US / high minimum wages

Too many regulations and crazy legal system

High taxes

Too much Government interferece

Too many unions

....

Laurie - So you know something of nuts, eh? Very tellling. If you think I am whining, reading comprehension must not be your strong suit.

Jim - Agreed! I haven't come onto a First Read thread that isn't started by Fiesty or one of the other socialist posters in a long time. Something tells me that group has an inside scoop. I don't really care, but patterns have emerged and it is obvious.

The telling part of their posts is that they don't even keep to the subject matter. They deflect to take away from the article. This article was about a Category 4 hitting the democrats in 2 weeks... What will be great is when that category 4 sweeps them into the water and true change occurs that brings us out of this progressive slide into the abyss. Socialists don't want that to occur and panic has set in.... talk about the real whiners... crying over the rest of the country not wanting to embrace their socialist agenda.

Jay: You are completely ignoring the reality that we allow the world to ship their goods around the world with our protection at little or no cost relative to the benefit.

I love how NewdayDawning adds things to peoples posts. What I meant is you liberals want to encourage all people to boycott businesses that are members of the Chamber of Commerce, yet the extreme liberal members on this site will be the first to start screaming.

Here is a scenario I can see happening. Liberals encourage everyone (members of both partys) to boycott Chamber of Commerce businesses, those businesses loose money and are forced to layoff union employees. Then some of the most liberal posters on this site go crazy because "big business" had the audacity to lay off employees. When in reality the layoffs were due to boycotts encouraged by the liberal posters on this site.

Boycotts HURT middle class workers.

Yeah, yeah, the Repubs are all thieves and the Dems get theirs a buck at a time from little old ladies pushing carts down the streets. BO raised and spent more money then any other Presidential candidate in history. The problem is he's not a candidate and he's still spending. That was a good one. You want to open books----open them ALL. Then, let's take a good look at who's done what. If you're not willing to do that, you're wasting your breath.

I know what I have seen and starting with Regan every republican administration has increased the debt by record breaking numbers. Our last president Dick Cheney said deficits don't matter. There is no reason to believe they will do what they say about the budget they never have in my lifetime. There are no specifics, because there is no plan they have no idea how to control spending. They are not gonna cut their political throats by killing social security, increasing taxes on the wealthy or cutting defense spending. The middle class has nothing left to give so I want to see this magic act where you cut taxes and pay down debt and solve the unemployment problem. This trickle down baloney has never worked yet, the middle class takes a beating under republican control. I'm pretty sure cutting the minimum wage and eliminating more union jobs will not increase demand for businesses, it will just create more demand for the social services they so despise. America will never be strong again until we go back to being producers of the goods we buy, instead of the consumers of cheap goods, based on the slave wages of foreign nations. Be American Buy American. (unless you want your children to compete with the Chinese for 25 cent an hour jobs).

When I was a kid in the 60's, my friend could not have a transitor radio. I asked why and his father said because it was made in Japan. He said if we buy stuff made in Japan, we put American workers out of a job. I thought he was unreasonable at the time.

Jefferson,

Tariffs are part of the solution. While they make products more expensive, that relativity makes your buddies fishing device less expensive in comparison. And it forces manufacturing decisions to put more weight on staying put here because it is the better fiscal decision. That in turn adds not only to employment, but also to better wages.

In fact, China agrees. They reverse tariff all products shipped to the US. Your buddy actually pays the importer / exporter a tax or fee to China on every one of his/her goods that ship out of the country.

If we lose manufacturing, we essentially all become or work for distributors. And if we can't add value, only price at some point the margins (profit before SG&A) shrink. As those shrink, there goes jobs, benefits and better wages. Cost are rising for families, but more income is not coming continuing the squeeze on our citizens economic situations.

Yesterday the market tanked because in part China raised interest rates to try to stem off inflation. Why, because their economy is booming, and somewhat out of control. Prior to Clinton signing NAFTA in 93, we had the luxury of being a manufacturing country with inflationary issues and good GDP growth (and yes, Bush Sr pushed it and the Reps. had control of Congress in 93 when Clinton signed it). Since we are losing our manufacturing base, we have to rely on bubbles to bounce back, such as the Dot.com and Housing. But bubbles are just that, they burst.

Is a tariff the answer, no. But it is part of it. The actual problem is outsourcing our wealth. We need to keep our dollars churning in this country and working for us. All of us. And one way to do that is to tariff goods to put the US back into a Fair Trade situation.

Could ity be that Fiesty gets on first because she is from the great state of Illinoise. How many past governors are currently serving time, or treasurers chilling her cash in the deep freeze?

Hey Joe – Really?

The COC has defended themselves HOW? And going on Fox Noise and preaching to the choir doesn’t count! Imagine my surprise that I can't find a peep out of them other than on the extension of the Republican party also known as Faux News?

So?

Am I to interpret the silence and or refusal to answer a simple question is because YOU CAN'T?

Seriously.... where did the COC defend themselves other than Fox News?

to amy - nice to see how narrow minded you say you are by limiting your news exposure to select channels that only project what you believe. Guess you think that that makes you an informed voter and that your opinions are valuable to everyone else.

to fiesty and her supporters - $885000 does not mean that those funds were spent on US campaigns. Until you can show that the chamber has spent more funds than that contributed by US sources you will never get a conviction in a court of law.

As one of your links stated it appears that you are trying to embark on a "fear and smear" campaign.

If the supreme court is happy with its decision on the "non-transparency" issue, why are you not lobbying to get a reversal?

Nashville_fan

To all the folks whining about Feisty getting the first post:

Ever thought about getting here a little earlier than usual?

I have a job. I don't have time to sit at my computer all day and hit refresh, and whine about the world I live in.

I wonder if Edwin Perkins ever dreamed of how much Kool-Aid the Progressives would be drinking. Did New Deal FDR dub it the National Drink of Progressives out of respect for Wilson? Why do Progressive drink it after all it manufactured in Mexico. I've got to get a few more share of Kraft Foods their selling a bunch of Kool-Aid these days.

If boycotts hurt the middle class janet, then why do you participate in one?

Jerry-1153305

Could ity be that Fiesty gets on first because she is from the great state of Illinoise. How many past governors are currently serving time, or treasurers chilling her cash in the deep freeze?

I hope the personal attack on me makes you feel like more of a man there Jerry!

Obviously, I've struck a nerve with you and the rest who are bitching and moaning about my post and it being first!

Here's an idea for all you 'real Americans' why not dispute or debunk it rather than lobbing poor attempts at insults my way!

If you don't mind... I'll stick to what I find to be important as an American and you all continue on with the ad hominum attacks that appear to be much more important to you then the outsourcing of US jobs and the selling of our democracy to the highest foreign bidder.... M'Kay?

You all's priorities are startling!

Smells like we need a war put up against this BS. This will probably eventually lead all of us into WW3. All of us are FED UP!

cdahl,

Excellent. Thanks for the link

Brianb-999431...SPOT ON! A Cat 5 would be nicer! Party at MY house Nov. 3,4,5,6,7,8....

John,

Funny, because here you are whining all the same.

And the issue is ANONYMOUS donations, foreign and domestic, and the question is how can you have a representative democracy when you don't know who is representing what?

And to whomever it was above who said why aren't we lobbying to repeal the Supreme Court decision, there was a bill to do just that in the Congress and not a single Republican supported it.

The Supreme Court has declared corporations to be people, and you have millions of folks who claim to believe in "freedom" who are to hypnotized to notice.

Now, we get the whole "stick to the topic" argument . . . this just in . . . the topic is the election which is being PURCHASED by anonymous groups, whether you choose to notice or not.

Navy Vet - you are dillusional. To you, anyone with an opposing view is a "repugnant A$$." I hate to burst your socialist bubble, but there are a lot of people that don't agree with you. Your solution is to put them on a hit list and demean them every chance you get. You outright call anyone that expresses a conservative point of view some sort of name.

I want to know what new ideas you and your group have come up with. The only thing you are famous for is to attack ANYTHING or ANYONE that isn't a shill for the ideology you have embraced. You bypass any exposure of the left as if it doesn't exist. Let me give you some real life examples. Answer any of these.

Where are the shovel ready jobs Obama promised when stumping for the stimulus bill? This was promised... excuses?

How come unemployment didn't stop at 8% like Obama predicted when asking for Stimulus? Excuses?

Where in the Constitution does it ALLOW the government to bail out privately owned corporations/companies? Facts only please.

Why won't Obama disclose his source of funding for the 08 presidential campaign? Excuses?

How come there hasn't been transparancy in the Obama Administration even though he said his would be the MOST transparent? Through closed door sessions, they strong armed and bribed state senators to vote for the health care reform bill. What excuse do you have for them on this one?

I really don't expect you to answer with any credibility. In your world, these things don't need to be explained because your blindness over Obama worship overrides any practical sense you can muster.

As far as attacking your veteran status... only you would view not having values as an attack. As far as I am concerned, honor is far from you. Hatred and attack from you is NOT a value worthy of a veteran. I didn't start it first. Stating that you are a cry baby is factual and not a personal attack. Always blaming republicans and tea party members on your part definitely counts as being a cry baby, especially when you never point out any fault with your beloved democrats. BTW - I am NOT a republican and have the documentation to prove it.

Dear Routine First Read posters. Thank you so much for your tireless effort against the Chuck Todd narrative telling us this election is over, and not to bother showing up.

While I believe the GOP will win the House, I predict it will be by a smaller margin than anyone inside the Beltway is predicting.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL: re #1.22. Please control your cursing. It offends me. Thank you.

I didn't start it first.

Are you for real?

What I want to know... Why is Fiesty ALWAYS the first to post to a First Read article. Then in lockstep, the crybaby navy vet always follows right behind. Something is strange with this scenerio. I think there's an inside track to make that happen everytime. Leave it to MSN to put their socialist shills on first... but that's OK... I like the way they get shot down everytime.

#1.10 - Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:19 AM CDT

Ummm.... notice the time stamp? Please either prove where Navy started this or shut the hell up! You came here and out of no where started with the personal attacks... and NO AMOUNT of CRAB WALKING it BACKWARDS is going to change a damn thing!

Now you're on record as a LIAR to BOOT!

Thanks Matt L, appreciate it very much.

Yes the latest manufacturing jobs to be outsourced were sent to China, care to guess what company? GM Obama’s new company, Obama took over and sent all the manufacturing to China; we only do assembly here now... Yep liberals point at jobs being outsourced by the GOP when their God has been the most recent offender...

Smells like we need a war put up against this BS. This will probably eventually lead all of us into WW3. All of us are FED UP!

We can't go to war with China, we would have to go barefoot and naked because they make all our clothes and shoes.

I boycott a lot of lefty movie stars and lefty-owned companies because they support the murderer/lefty idiot, Mumia Abu Jamal. Doesn't do a bit of good but I love to see the look on people's faces when I say to them "I see you're eating Ben & Jerrys...you didn't strike me as a cop killer fan."

to nashville -and to think that the democrats have the majority in congress, how many of those refused to support it??

And to whomever it was above who said why aren't we lobbying to repeal the Supreme Court decision, there was a bill to do just that in the Congress and not a single Republican supported it.

Wasn't it Clinton that signed NAFTA? Get rid of the unions and maybe we can compete. They had their time but now they have turned into a parasite business that is only concerned with "evil profit" just like the other corporations liberals rail against. This is America, it is possible to be successful by hard work and ambition, something the liberals just don't get. The only ones who fell for the Doughbama BS are the ones that have overspent themselves and see justification in the way this current bunch of Chicago thugs are handling money- spend spend spend....

american-2051576

to nashville -and to think that the democrats have the majority in congress, how many of those refused to support it??

And to whomever it was above who said why aren't we lobbying to repeal the Supreme Court decision, there was a bill to do just that in the Congress and not a single Republican supported it.

Hate to burst your little bubble there... but it didn't even get to the floor of the Senate for a VOTE thanks to the threat of a filibuster by the GEENOPEE!

If you're gonna tell a 'tale' make sure to include the ending will ya?

brianb:

The President never promised that unemployment would not go over 8% if the stimulus was passed.

Unemployment was 7.6% when the President was sworn in.

That is a lie.

I challenge you to present evidence that the President ever said that. He did not, even though the corporate people keep telling you that, its a lie.

The stimulus worked and has already created more jobs in 20 months than the Bush Administration did in 8 years.

That's another fact.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/99915-cbo-finds-stimulus-bill-boosted-job-growth

Read it for yourself.

Anonymous donations made by "corporate people" equals the death of representative democracy.

It's not about excuses, its about a reality check. Voodoo economics drove our country into the ground, and doing the same sh!t over again ain't gonna fix it.

The President hasn't been office for 2 years yet, and you are already expecting everything to be fixed. That's called delusional thinking.

Crystal,

It is not the unions that are the problem. It is the cost of doing business that makes our products less competitive. Employee costs of a person making $12.00 per hour our company include: (per worker per year)

Unemployment Insurance: $6,400

Workman's comp: $2,200

OSHA/EPA $800

Medical (not Obama's) $22,000

401K + 529 $1,500

This doesn't include SS and other taxes. China doesn't have these costs built into their products. Yet, as a manufacturer I have to compete on price, and must put these in the SG&A portion of the cost equation. I support those costs. But I don't support our government forcing us into an unfair competition. We can fight on wages. While we start @ $12.00, our HS degreed starting pay is $18.00, and goes up quickly from there. Wage costs are often offset by the cost of shipping goods into this country. It is the other "hidden" costs that hurt our bottom line, which is where wage increases and more hires come from

@ brainb and Navy. Enough with the attacks on each other specific to serving. Thank you to both of you, and we all should be honored that you both made the decision to serve for the rest of us.

@ Fiesty. Although I often disagree with your arguments, I find them enjoyable to read. You often make me think of my view on the world and I'll will even slightly redirect my personal thinking based on the substance of your posts, and others with similar points of view. However, today is not one of those days. I understand the frustration when you feel that people are attacking you. Please, keep it civil. The name calling is beneath you, and with your level of sophistication, you of all people certainly don't need to bring yourself down to that level. You are more credible when you stick to your arguments, which often times are very good and well positioned.

GM Obama’s new company, Obama took over and sent all the manufacturing to China;

Obama is the CEO of GM that is news to me I'm surprised. Then I'll give him the credit for the shuddered plants in Michigan that are producing again. BTW he did not take over GM, the government gave them a loan, you know like the government did for Chrysler when Reagan was president. If not for that loan everybody who worked for GM and all its suppliers would have lost their jobs. I was also in favor of saving Chrysler back in day and damn glad we saved GM.

Fiesty Redhead (HA!) It is interesting to see your frizz get into a dander. You do realize that your only supporting audience is the same socialists you defend. So with that said, any opinion you may have, and yes I said opinion, is pretty much invalidated. You didn't take time to read what I said, you only reacted. I'd like to have a camera to document all the frizz floating in the room.

It is truly amazing how much the left is overreacting to the right. The left knows they are getting ready to take it on the chin and there's nothing they can do about it now. FAILED ideology has done them in. True colors of hatred, bigotry, race baiting, class warfare and the feeling of superiority are all crashing down to the ground and there is no support element for damaged egos.

Category 4 Fiesty... it's all about how the winds have shifted AGAINST your belief system. You can't take it. The only things you have are misconceptions, misperceptions, miscalculations, and a total detachment from reality for what's about to take place. Course correction is a good thing... unless you are a socalist.

I've been coming here for several months to look at the First Read posts because of how insane some of them are. They were always hilarious so I just read and rarely posted. The "Feisty" person was always particularly insanely entertaining.

It did always seem though that there was still a bit of civility between the two sides. But lately, particularly in the past week or so the liberals on here have turned almost rabid!

It's like they know the election will be bad and it's driving them over the edge. This is going to make for some extremely funny reading over the next thirteen days. lol

NewDawgdawinign (deliberately misspelling)

Yep, 1 little ol person impacts GE, and forces them to layoff people. I told you I did it for my self satisfaction. I would never participate in any type of organized boycott

Well the good news is that not only is BrianB a confirmed liar... but all he's got in his 'arsenal' are personal attacks!

Keep on the attack Brian... and I'll keep on bringing the TRUTH to light!

Thanks for playing BrianB & I'll see you on the 3rd when that blood bath turns out to be nothing more than a paper cut!

I've wasted more than enough time on you today! ;0)

Cdahl; I appreciate your comments... however, you should know by now that I'm not going to sit back and take unprovoked 'sucker' punches from the right...

Nashville Fan - What world do you live on? It certainly isn't planet Earth. Just your statement that the stimulus created more jobs than Bush did in 8 years is hilarious. You must be a comedian. Maybe you haven't been listening to the reports on how many unemployed there are in this country. It's hovering near 10%. Bush's average unemployment was close to 5.9%... Only near the end, when the democrats took back control over Congress did the employment rate start falling. Unemployment in 06 was right at 5.8%.

Posting liberal links to me is like me posting conservative links to you. They are worthless. The Hill is one of the most liberal rags on the market today. You don't think their reporting is biased do you? You offend me with your ease of being taken in. How about if I show you links to Newsmax, or Drudge... Sheesh!

There is no delusion on my part. The evidence is surrounding us, no matter how much you close your eyes to it. The only explanation is Obama worship. Blindness caused by over expectation of a socialist leader. It has happened so many times in the past...

Fiesty,

Please try to remember that we are all mostly after the same thing. While our priorities may differ, economic prosperity, social prosperity, providing for our citizens, and protecting each and every one of our rights are things that we can all agree on.

Brian's priorities are actually not very different than yours. The difference is in how to approach our problems, which solutions will work vs. which won't.

I understand that it is a challenge, but really I am a little saddened today by yours and Brain's posting. More often than not I find a lot more substance contained within them.

I guess that I am on a somewhat of a "why can't we all get along" rant today, and I'll make this my last post.

Whomever wins, and by how much this year and in 2012 & beyond, we all have to start working together. A house divided can never stand has never been more obvious.

It is time to agitate the liberals, especially Fiesty, who considers me a Troll. I love her cut & paste comments to support her one-sided opinions. This one is for you Fiesty, you need humor in your narrow minded life:

A man visits Mexico and loses his possessions. When attempting to reenter the US, the Customs Agent informs him he can’t enter without a valid ID.

The man tells his story about losing his wallet, ID, etc., but the Customs Agent stands by his previous comment.

The man again indicates he is an American citizen and can prove it by showing the Agent his tattoo on his behind of Ronnie Ragan on his right cheek of his bum, and by the tattoo of George Bush on his left cheek.

The Agent relents, and asks to see the tattoos. The man drops his pants, and sure enough, there are the tattoos as claimedThe Customs Agent tells the man he can enter and to have a safe trip back to Chicago.

The man asks how the Agent knows he’s from Chicago.

The Agent says that he recognized Obama in the middle.

Re: This entire 'discussion' thread...

...circle-jerk~

A house divided can never stand has never been more obvious.

No truer words have been spoken! I was talking to some friends the other day and asked regardless of the election outcome in 2010 or 2012 I have no idea how this country is ever going to be able to come together once again!

Enjoy the rest of you day cdahl and thank you again for the kind words! I'll try to remember what you said and bring my 'A' game back... ;0)

You are indeed a rare commodity and I enjoy our conversations!

Re: This entire 'discussion' thread...

...circle-jerk~

Maybe. But still hilarious! lol

Why use an attention-grabbing headline about a storm that would strike fear in those in "Hurricane country" when politics share no characteristics with weather. I understand the play on words, but if people were interested, theyd read the article regardless of a flashy headline. Shame on you MSNBC

John, Tucson

Sounds like a basic inability to multi task,...why is that Feisty's problem?

cdahl,

I'm trying to figure out why your unemployment insurance is 25%? I didn't calculate the rest of your math; but that one threw me for a loop.

If there's one thing we learned from the previous Administration, it's how to weather a Category 4. Preferably on a tarmac, in a safe location, with Birthday Cake.

Living La Vida Loca! Thanks, "W"!

The poll is a total waste --Maddow shows you why...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/19/911571/-Rachel-Maddow:-The-Best-Summary-By-Far

Chuckie Todd should only dream of being this astute!

As long as Americans always hunt for the lowest price, our jobs will keep going overseas. Look what that philosophy has done to the airline industry. You want the jobs to come back? Buy American. Period. If you can't buy American, then don't buy at all. That's the only way to fix this mess.

Safecracker - that ~cracked~ me up! Good one!

poor fiesty more spin and disinformation. threats of filibuster didn't stop all bills or is that something you conveniently "forget" about? Could it be that some dems didn't want it as well?

poor fiesty more spin and disinformation. threats of filibuster didn't stop all bills or is that something you conveniently "forget" about?

Ummm... last time I checked we weren't talking about ALL bills... I was referring to a particular bill that was introduced to reform the SCOTUS decision that the Republicans did INDEED threaten to filibuster...

And no matter how you want to twist and spin it... it don't change the simple FACT!

Until you can prove otherwise... you're dismissed!

Well done!!

Check how much BP donated to the Obama Campaign during his run!!

I believe that is a foreign company as well....shhhhhhh

brianb:

The link showing that GWB had the worst job creation of any modern president was The Wall Street Journal.

Is that a source where you have been approved to get your information from?

Is your psyche so fragile that you are unable to process and verify information from unapproved sources?

You rant and rail about "The Hill" being a "liberal rag", but the numbers they are discussing are from the CBO.

So to translate - you don't know what you are talking about and you refuse to accept evidence of such.

So noted.

And I repeat:

The stimulus has created more jobs in 20 months than President Bush did in 8 years.

That is a stone. cold. fact.

CBO: Stimulus Added Millions Of Jobs In Second Quarter

http://www.reuters.com/assets/print?aid=USTRE67N55X20100824

• January 9, 2009, 12:04 PM ET

Bush On Jobs: The Worst Track Record On Record

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/

After the mid Term Elections are over.. The Govt will start to put out the Real numbers on unemployment.. They can't show you just how bad Obama and the Democrats have actually Preformed until after the Elections because they know that the loss's they are about to experience would be even worse..

come November 5th, you will see the Unemployment rate Jump .. Not to where it actually should be. . but just enough to not scare the hell out of the Liberals on this page and around the country. then month after Month it will Raise to what it actually is...

Interesting things discovered by the Wall Street Journal. The Democrats including the Soros westsite Think Progress claim the Chamber took $510,000 from an American incorporated company which is partly owned by Chinese businessmen. If incorporated in the US, this is a gray area under the law. However the interestin part is that three Democratic PACS took a total of $1.4 million from the same people. So if the Chamber is guilty so are these Democratic backers.

That's right Steve, if the facts don't support your fantasies, create new facts.

Here's hoping the next generation gets their brains back.

Sadly, we have a generation of freedom loving corporate drones who only believe things that come to them from approved sources.

Anonymous donations to campaigns?

No problem.

Jobs outsourced?

No problem.

Somebody try to build a community center in an empty building?

World War III.

Truth is stranger than fiction.

We have been losing jobs for a long time--Bush's job creation barely kept pace with population growth. As such, jobs can't be regained over night.

After the mid-term elections are over... The Republicans will have gained enough seats in Congress that they will now be held responsible for improving the economy. If the real numbers on unemployment are bad, then the Republican/Tea Party will just have to roll up their sleeves and actually do something about it. Based on their past record, I forecast failure.

Regarding the original post, in all fairness, if we want to reform campaign contributions from special interests, we will need to go to an equal public funded system. That means the Supreme Court ruling that now allows unlimited influence by corporations (and possibly foreign influence) on our elections would be ended.

It also means that non-profit membership fee organizations like the Chamber, and yes like unions, would be restricted as well. No one has been successful in getting this passed. Too bad the Tea Party doesn't represent real change in Washington, since all their candidates are running as Republicans and are taking special interest money like drunken sailors.

Poor janet, still trying to excuse herself. Which is it janet, is it only when a Liberal participates in a boycott, it hurts the middle class? Each participant is an individual. You DO know that much, right?

fiesty, fiesty, fiesty we were talking 'filibuster' and the threat thereof. Perhaps you should pay closer attention to those who say things that you disagree with. Such an attitude! tch, tch.

Poor NewDawdawning,

He pretends to be intelligent, yet doesn't know that Raese isn't involved in the PA senate race. He really should try reading before making his posts

How very amusing, janet, though I see you still cannot spell, I am first a woman, and second, I have posted nothing on the PA race. So, it would seem the reading problem is yours. But it is fun to know how sensitive to feedback you are.

Come on now NDD... wasn't it just yesterday the Janet was attempting to dazzle us with her brilliance? ;0)))

From the sound of her... not sure she even realizes it's Wednesday!

That's right, Feisty: and as much fun as it has been, I am heading to the barn. Wish you were here!

hello fiesty, back to blowing off anyone with a differing opinion? Get a life girl and grow up. Use a good arguement to enter into the discussion, not childish gibberish.

Democrats have Claimed the Obama has Created jobs.. . lets just go by the numbers that Obama says he Created since january of 2010.. 870,000.. These after all the Jobs Lost were replaced.. now in Jan. 2010 the unemployment rate was 9.7 percent.. it now stands at 9.6 percent.. thats a 1/10 of a percentages point Drop.. . so we now know that . 1/10 of one percentage point equals 870,000 jobs.. so to drop the Unemployment rate down to 5 percent . Obama would have to Create. 39,620,000 jobs.. Just to drop it to 5 percent.. . Now. 40 million jobs is over 30 percent of the Total Work force in the United States.. .. Which by Obamas own numbers would mean that the Actual unemployment is well over 30 percent...

This Administration has Created Zero jobs.. but the liberals on this page will try and Convince the rest of the Weak Minded Liberals that he has.. They are lying about the Actual Unemployment rate in this country..

Fiesty, How is it your always the first to post on these First Thought articles? And the next four or five posts are always the same people who always follow you. Is this a slant on the news? Could it be that MSN is afraid the dems are losing so bad, that they have to set the pace in the comments. It also seems as though you must have your comment already to go, to get on so quickly, since your comments are always long. Your following cronies also write long.

If it looks like a setup, and it smells like a setup, and it tastes like a setup, then it is!

Paranod MUCH? lol

and it tastes like a setup,

As long as you already have a fork... would YOU care to take a stab at answering some of the questions I've posed?

Or are you too caught up in your conspiracy theories?

Bon Appetite! ;0)

Feisty Redhead, Ive been reading your posts for a long time. You appear to have a lot of time on your hands - or you never sleep. No matter... I think I love you, I mean really love you. I'm an old guy. Don't worry, no threat.

AAwww, love on the vine. Well, its better than the vituperative sniping and name calling and "I'm right, you're stupid" attitudes that seem to prevail at the present. Half baked facts, regurgitated sound bites and rabid loyalty to party make for interesting reading (sorta) but are a lousy way to solve problems. I would suggest anger management classes but after the recent stabbing at a meeting I guess that's not an option.

The Democrats in Congress (even though they have a slim majority in Congress) have had a hard time getting the economy fixed because 1) conservatives outnumber progressives in Congress. This cuts across party lines, since conservatives exist in both parties. 2) American conservatives are an impatient lot. They demand instantaneous results without accepting personal responsibility for their hand in promoting collectively bad decisions. BushCo. had two terms in office to ruin our economy with the help of his GOP Congress 6 out of those 8 years. Thus, since Obama's been in the Oval Office with a slim Dem majority for the past two years trying to fix the nation's problems (four if you count the last years of Bush in Office but they still were opposed solidly in numbers by the GOP, conservatives, and by the White House) ...but the conservatives keep shooting down the progressive's proposals to fix it, so the conservatives blame the current President and blame the Dems and the progressives for the problems the conservatives that exist in both parties, created for our economy in the past decade.

Let us not forget that two jobless recessions started under the last Administration. One ended in 2002, but another continued after 2008. Bush, Cheney and Karl Rove all said they wanted the next Administration to resolve the problems they started and left unfinished.

The majority of the blame still goes to the conservatives, ultraconservatives and the religious right for resisting all efforts by the progressives and by the President to improve this economy. Thus it doesn't matter if the Dems have a slim congressional majority, they're still outnumbered by the naysayers and the conservative lobbyists that have no solutions, and soon, more Dems will be voted out by more naysayers that want to, "Take America Back!" ...to the 18th century.

And anyone that says the government should stay out of the economy and that the private sector free market and/or the believers of a fundamentalist religion can do better when it comes to managing a superpower's affairs is being spectacularly naive.

After ultraconservatives create a slim majority in Congress in a couple of weeks, then we'll know who to blame in 2012, if they cannot get the economy back up and running to the ideal, 'unregulated, free market' levels they themselves want it to be at. Unless of course if they add the 40-plus more amendments to the U.S. Constitution as Michelle Bachmann has strongly suggested and as other Tea Partiers have also promoted, along with the repealing of several amendments -- then if they even engineer just one change to the U.S. Constitution by getting a majority of states to go along with it, then all bets on how the economy will be like in 2012 or even 2016, are off the table.

harley - I think you scared fiesty away!

John B.

This really puts the lie to the Conservative narrative claiming that Capitalism and freedom are really one and the same. China functions very well as a Capitalist society with very little that any of us would recognize as freedom.

Huh? China functions well as a Capitalist society? Are you high? (Serious question, not trying to belittle you)

In any case, how can you have freedom from coercion against your personal belongings without personal freedom as well? Your statement is self defeating.

On the contrary, China is filled with privately-owned companies that are pretty much left to their own devices...as long as they don't criticize the government and grease the right palms. That's how they became the world's fastest growing economy.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0110-42.htm

http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article1519

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,442552,00.html

This isn't your father's Communism, so to speak. Really it's a hybrid that includes the worst features of Communism and Capitalism--but no Democracy.

No... K Chad has a point here John. China does not employ a Capitalist society. Chad defininition of capitalism

Freedom from coercion against your personal belongings

is close enough. You can't have capitalism when the government restricts social freedoms as well. The economy is still extrodinarily dependant, and restricted by the government... and the businesses are still heavily influenced in their decisions by the mere presense of the government. Comparing the Chinese 'capitalism' to conservatism in America is rediculous.

True capitalism is ENTIRELY dependant on having social freedoms as well. As such, if there is true capitalism, then there must also exist social freedoms. Now... granted... capitalism is easily corrupted, as with any system. I'm just arguing K Chads point.

By that definition true capitalism has never existed anywhere, ever.

we're not free from coercion against our personal belongings here anymore, if ever.

Capitalism exists for 2% OF THE POPULATION IN EVERY COUNTRY. It's called Plutocracy.

That is true... capitalism has never existed in it's pure form. We can only approach it. The difference between capitalism and other political systems, is that capitalism gains strength from a human weakness. Greed. People want money... power. Through capitalism, your able to do that without breaking the system. Through the more socialist systems, one would have to break the system. Unfortunately, pure capitalism can be tampered with (as Aunrie mentioned) to give a ridiculous advantage to those with a head start. That is kinda where the American experiment comes in. It has consumer protection laws. The american government acts like a type of babysitter, telling all of us kids to behave. However, I personally believe we have gone to far with the government role. The government plays far to high of a role.

Consider the morgage crisis. Yes yes, I know... greed and lack of regulations... blah blah. But REALLY! The only reason it got so damn big was BECAUSE the government gave it backing. Regulations are one things. Incentives is inexcusable. The government has no reason to be tampering with the economy so directly. The government, like ALL OTHER ORGANIZATIONS, deals with corruptions within itself. It is NOT PERFECT. Because it is not perfect, but wields such ridiculous, unrivaled power, it should never use it's power to do the job of the markets. THAT, is unfair.

Paul

Plutocracy is an entire nation ruled by the wealthy... it doesn't refer to a section of the population. Do you mean to say the the plutocrats are the only ones who enjoy true capitalism? I beg to differ in both cases... In any case, my original point for joining this conversation still stands:

China does not function well as a capitalist society.

K Chad, we can quibble about terminology but really I don't think we're that far apart on the biggest point. That being that Capitalism is a wonderful inducement to work hard in order to succeed, but the level of government oversight needs to be managed carefully. Too much and you creep ever closer to the managed economies of the Soviet bloc, a dismal failure if there ever was one. Too little and you enable the Plutocratic scenario that Paul invokes, a scene of incredible distance between the haves and have nots.

Yea, I agree with you there.

Great post, Louis J. It is beyond comprehension how any of the TP candidates became candidates let alone the fact that some are viable in an election as important as this one is. They want to take the country backwards and unfortunately, many voters seem willing to go with them. Fear and uncertainty does strange things to people. Wake up America, please wake up and listen to what these TP candidates are really saying and ask if this is where you want to go.

Transcripts and descriptions can't do it justice, only a look at the footage can provide a full picture of just how wrong Christine O'Donnell is. She's quite proud that she's created a "gotcha" moment in her debate with Coons as the crowd laughs at her own cluelessness. After proudly proclaiming her status as a "Strict Constructionist" she demonstrates that she doesn't even understand the WORDS in the Bill of Rights and has no idea how they've been interpreted for generations.

I came about yay close to feeling sorry for the poor thing, she didn't even realize they were laughing at her, not with her.

Fellow Travelers - particularly Louis J and Jody:

We now have less than two weeks to what I think will be a landmark election. A Chinese proverb is appropriate here: "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper name." It's time to flush political correctness. It not only clouds and confuses debate, it is dangerous.

For too long we have listened to the right wing deny that bigotry is - for many - a central element in the opposition to all things Obama. Last night, Rachel Maddow clearly exposed their bigotry for what it is. That is not to say there are no legitimate reasons for disagreeing with the President. There are. I could lay out quite a number of my own, but anyone who argues that a senile McCain and his ignoramus running mate could do better is delusional. Bigotry is a driving force - perhaps the primary driving force - behind the obtuse right wing. Even now, they offer nothing better.

Let's try another word: Ignorance. The right actually revels in ignorance. They wear it like a badge of honor. Think Sarah Palin rolling her eyes in her vacuous head when she met one of those elite teacher-types. Ugh! Think O'Donnell who cannot grasp the separation of church and state. Golly gosh, those exact words aren't in the Constitution. Think Miller whose punk entourage slaps handcuffs on a reporter. Are you kidding? Think Angle who would force a rape victim to carry the rapist's child to full term. Brimming with sensitivity, that one. Think Buck who wants to confer the full rights of a human on a two-celled fetus. Think a Supreme Court that confers the right of free speech on a paper creation.

Those folks are routinely referred to in the press as "conservatives". They are most assuredly not conservatives. Their proper name? Totalitarians. Brutal thugs. Delusional dullards.

"Liberals"? Aren't they the ones who waste other people's money? Don't they stand in line waiting for their handouts? Aren't they the ones who sit at home, watch soaps and eat bon-bons? No. Their proper name? Parasites. Bums. Slothful dullards.

True conservatives and true liberals are increasingly rare, supplanted by ignorant ideologues who measure the success of their rants in decibels. We should be stunned and horrified that our government is falling into the hands of groups so polarized that gridlock is virtually assured.

Forget the "D", forget the "R". Cast your vote for the candidate who least threatens your future and your freedoms. Right now, that scale seems to favor the "D's", but make no mistake, they too are in the thrall of Big Money.

Can you handle one more proper name? The Public School System! No system can instruct or teach millions of minds, all of which have differing capacity and ability. A system for such a task? It's absurd on its face. This is about compulsory school attendance. Think incarceration. Think the destruction of critical thinking, of inventiveness, of creativity.

That's why we have Palins, Angles, Bucks, Millers, and O'Donnells and so many more like that. They are now the majority folks. We need to destroy the current educational system and rebuild it before it destroys America.

Obama increased the national debt by $3T in two years. Nancy's congress increased it $2.1T in two years. Bush increased it $2.8T in six. I don't care what 'party' you favor those are frightening numbers. You 'progressives' want to 'lean forward' and continue this?? Wake up America, please wake up and listen to what these progressive candidates are really saying and ask if this is where you want to go! (see Greece, France, Spain,)

You want to talk about ignorance? Fine then, let us discuss it.

How ignorant is it to waste almost a trillion dollars on shovel ready jobs that do not exist?

How ignorant is it to put armed forces in harm's way, but demand that they get a confession, in front of witnesses, that the enemy is, actually, shooting at the, before they can fire back.

How ignorant is it to believe that you can use nothing but the force of your personality to disarm rogue nations?

How ignorant is it to ignore the biggest problem of the nation, the Economy, while you pursue your own agenda, HCR which was vehemently opposed by the majority, and cap and trade, which has even greater majorities against it?

How ignorant is it to insult voters by calling them too stupid or fearful to understand how wonderful you are?

Face it- Obama's ignorance is only surpassed by his arrogance.

Hobie81

Did you miss this quote in the First Read post above? The alternative to "progressives" are Republicans. The same people who funneled millions to the least populated, but very red, state, Alaska for unnecessary infrastructure improvements, FOR YEARS. At least progressives saved us from another Depression. End of story.

"Calculations by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office and other independent fiscal experts show that the $1.1 trillion cost over the next 10 years of the Medicare prescription drug program, which the Republican-controlled Congress adopted in 2003, by itself would add more to the deficit than the combined costs of the bailout, the stimulus and the health care law."

LouisJ;

Great post. Thak you.

David Walker,

Forget the "D", forget the "R". Cast your vote for the candidate who least threatens your future and your freedoms.

This is about the smartest thing anyone on here has said the past few days. We need to independent thinkers, people who choose a candidate who represents our own school of thought.

Although pure liberals and conservatives are very small in numbers, it is the moderates that make some government good. But things that would help our country, on both sides is TERM LIMITS in Congress, Balanced Budgets, Line Item Vetoes, and reforming SS/Medicare/Welfare.

But the thing that hurts both sides is the bigotry--just the name calling on here is pure evil bigotry. If you are calling anyone a name outside of liberal, conservative, democrat, or republican--you are a bigot, plain and simple.

@David Walker - If we are to refer to things by their proper name, then let us refer to your specious, long winded post as intellectual masturbation. You are long on name calling and presenting opinion as fact. Great opinion hit piece, terrible fact based commentary.

It is ironic that nobody acknowledges that the Dems had a previous encounter with accepting Chinese donations several years back. More recently, has Obama refused to identify his donors amid similar accusations. It appears to be within the law, but smells pretty bad.

As far as the CoC goes, I want to check it myself, but if they are supporting outsourcing, then they have a lot to answer for. That does not necessarily mean you should draw a line between their actions and the Repubs. I know a lot of you would like to see it that way, but I know plenty of business owner's who are Dems.

Meanwhile, I hope the majority of people out there look to the most statesman-like candidate, not blindly vote in lockstep with your party. Wow, I think I'm back on topic.

no jo - from an AP article out today (and seeded to the 'Vine):

Republicans nationwide are attacking Democrats with a "failed stimulus" campaign drumbeat. In ads, debates and campaign mailers, they deride the $814 billion program as having reinforced out-of-control spending and doing little to help.

In reality, the stimulus program has done more than Republicans often claim — and less than Democrats may want to admit in the face of a sluggish economy and high unemployment. Moreover, the spending continues into next year, meaning the impact of the program cannot be fully measured.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reported last month that 1.4 million to 3.3 million people are employed because of the program, a blow to Republican claims that the stimulus failed to increase employment

It appears the reporter had you in mind.

Further, when the Health Insurance Reform act was passed, it fulfilled a campaign promise that a great majority of voters supported when Mr. Obama was elected. And a majority certainly supported Health Insurance Reform during the debates and votes on the bill. Even now, there is quibbling about various small portions of the reform, but a majority of voters are very much in favor of keeping most of its features. So, how ignorant are you to state otherwise?

Nor has the President ignored the economy. You can find very easily on a fact-checking site 7 pages listing Obama promises kept, leading off with significant initiatives to boost small business growth and investment. So, how ignorant are you to state otherwise?

The last Congress was one of the most productive in more than 60 years, according to independent analysts, spurred on to action by a "charming" Mr. Obama, who even now enjoys a higher rating among voters than either George Bush or Bill Clinton did at comparable points in their first terms.

What concerns me most about the present political climate is the further erosion of public confidence in ANY American government when the regressive positions of the Tea Party and Libertarian Republicans fail to materialize. There will be NO repeal of Health Insurance Reform, or major "fixing" of it either, in a hopelessly-deadlocked Congress. When these first-term right wing officeholders face the voters again, many will end up as single-term officeholders. Fortunately, it appears that Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, Rand Paul, Carly Fiorina (and, one can but hope, Michelle Bachmann) won't be in that group - they'll still be looking for work in the private sector.

The OMB projects the 2020 national debt to be $26.2T up from the current $13T due to Obama's spending spree. If anything saved us from another Depression it was TARP...which was BUSH and was paid back! Except for obama's purchase of GM for the unions. And I'm not sayin' the GOP has been all that great either. But the GOP is moving in the 'right' direction faster than the Dems. Americans see that and that's why they are cleaning house Nov 2nd.

Ahh, No Joe. Do you ever think beyond your anti-Obama ideology? Do you ever equate high health care costs to the economy? Do you not understand that every President dealing with any recession, regardless of size, does NOT focus solely on that? Can you conceive of the idea that the world and America's other problems cannot be put on hold while a President deals with just one thing? Do you have any notion of what multi-tasking means?

Stop with the shovel ready theory, that dog won't hunt. For one thing there was no trillion dollars spent on infrastructure jobs. In fact, even republicans wanted more infrastructure money. $785 billion stimulus had only a small portion of it for the shovel ready jobs. If there were none as you seem determined to believe, there sure were a lot of signs along the highways and in cities when I drove to Florida in Feb 2010 and many workers laboring to complete the jobs.

stts

Hobie81

Obama's "spending spree" includes the cost of waging war in Afghanistan, which would have been over nine years ago if George Bush hadn't decided we could also afford to invade Iraq, while cutting taxes, and losing billions of dollars to military fraud.

All of it supported and enabled by Republicans. Remember when they accused Democrats of wanting to "cut and run?" Tell me, were you writing posts during the Bush years decrying the waste and fiscal irresponsibilty going on? What was your stand on the million dollar Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere?

Hobie and no jo -

From a CNNMoney article I seeded to the 'Vine yesterday about stimulus funds and its great success in Kokomo, Indiana:

Kokomo's mayor, along with other city officials, used stimulus money to revamp the dying town center and lure shoppers back from the neon strip of chain stores and traffic lights that ring the city's eastern side.

Flowers were added, curbs and sidewalks were expanded. Gone are the traffic lights that used to encourage motorists to speed though intersections in a race to make the next green light. They have been replaced with stop signs that bring traffic to a more pedestrian-friendly pace and allow drivers to look around the new downtown.

That's just a little tiny bit in reference to "shovel ready" projects ... As for the rest of the tale, it describes how thousands of jobs were saved by the auto industry bailout, how private business in general is expanding around the town, and new construction is underway - all from the Stimulus Program.

Your "history" of the programs is simply propaganda.

I think pretty much everyone was on board with the Afghanistan war. And, at the time, the Iraq war too. Yeah, the CIA got snookered on the WMDs but in the end having a working democracy right next to Iran is going to benefit us greatly in the future. Oh, and if you had taken econ 101, military spending is THE BEST form of stimulus spending! The military IS 'shovel ready' unlike the porkulus waste.

John A,

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office reported last month that 1.4 million to 3.3 million people are employed because of the program, a blow to Republican claims that the stimulus failed to increase employment

We have 28 million people looking for work and the CBO gives a +/- of 2 million people who could have had their jobs saved. While I am happy people are working, it was our president that did say that if passed the unemployment rate would not get above 8%. Now, acting out a little, I was the first Bush that said "NO NEW TAXES" in '88, and the Dems used that line forever in the "92 election, because he signed a law that allowed luxury items to be taxed--which mainly affected the wealthy, and raised taxes that were already on the books. Even though there were no "NEW" taxes, Pat Buchanon and the Democrats used it against him.

As far as the health care bill, I agree that all children should be covered, and pre-existing conditions should be allowed to transfer, or not being kept from getting insurance. But mandates that force people to purchase insurance--wrong. Placing in a health care bill--government intrusion of purchasing gold by an individual--WRONG! A reason why line item vetoes are needed. What does my purchase of gold have to do with health care? Just another way to control the public?

What needs to be said is that at least Obama, (with his non working stimulus that the Republicans denounce but are using and taking credit,) used the money in this country rather than overseas. Billions cannot be accounted for in the two wars. Oops, I forgot. we cant hold anyone else responsible, just lay the past 10 ears at the feet of Obama.

I always wondered how it's possible for an entire nation to go insane like Nazi Germany. But it's simple. Induce enough stress and feed them with enough fear until the facts become so clouded and obscure that anything will fly.

We're not there yet and, if anything, the ability to do research on one's own through the internet - may just save the day. Propaganda has become (in some ways) much harder to get away with but not less slick.

Big money knows that - so they do what they can - namely, purchase the government while dividing its citizenry.

Now, you would think that that would be an outrage to the Tea Party. Apparently, they like the idea of big money, even big foreign money determining their future while calling it all patriotic.

Hobie81;

When Bush took office the National Debt was 5.73 Trillion, when he left it was 10.7 Trillion. You mention only 6 years, hate to tell ya, but he served 8 years, nice try leaving the other 2 years off the books. Also when Bush left we were losing 700,000 jobs per month. We are now adding private sector jobs and have been doing so for 8 or 9 months now and saved about 3.5 Million to boot. Google and check it out.

Currently on the deficit, if you only look at two of the policiesof President Bush, the 2 unfunded wars (which I opposed) and the 2 unfunded tax cuts, were are in hock to the tune of over 500 Billion per year, so if the Budget (deficit) is 1 Trillion at least 50% of it is the responsibility of the previous administration.

Instead of posting incorrect data why don't you tell us

What you are going to do to lower the deficit, what programs are you going to cut?

How are you going to create Jobs here in the US and NOT outsource them?

How are you going to improve education, our infrastructure?

You guys are pretty free with incorrect data and talking points now answer some questions.

Yeah and Al Frankin is a genious. Dem's look at your own screwballs before demeaning others.

no joe, no bo, nj

well said. Obama a legend in his own mind

Fletch2,

I didn't realize that Obama had 10 ears laid at his feet, even though his ears are big, I don't think they are that big:) I know you meant years.

Even though we have been at war, and alot of defense spending is wrought with what I think is overspending on items, I want our troops to have the best available equipment in the field. Most of which is made in the USA, which does provide American's with jobs.

But not only does our Billions of dollars spent on the war seem high, but what about the amount that we give in foreign aid, when we aren't even taking care of our own people. I believe that we should help others, especially when we can, but the billions and billions being shipped overseas is another program that could be slowed.

The following is the amount in billions we have shipped over as foreign aid.

2009--28.3 Billion

2008--26.8 billion

2007--22.2 billion

2006--24.7 billion

Now I don't know if this includes military spending overseas also or if it is just is our foreign aid to other countries. But that is over 100 Billion dollars, even cut in half, that would almost pay for TARP--which according to the news has been paid back with 8% revenue--by the way, I am still waiting for my dividend check from the Government? Anyone got there's?

Big Bear:

The President NEVER SAID that unemployment would not go over 8% if the stimulus was passed.

The unemployment rate in January 2009 was 7.6%, so CLEARLY nobody in there RIGHT MIND thought that the Stimulus package was going to be able to hold it under 8%?

I heard Joe Scarborough repeat this very same LIE this morning. I challenge anyone to find and post a time when President Obama said unemployment would not go over 8% if the stimulus passed. He never said any such thing.

Former President Bush created only 3 million jobs in 8 years, the worst record of any modern president. The stimulus bill has created that many in 20 months.

But don't let reality get in the way of your pre-conceived notions.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2009/01/09/bush-on-jobs-the-worst-track-record-on-record/

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-money/801-economy/99915-cbo-finds-stimulus-bill-boosted-job-growth

You know what really has me mystified? The fact that the highest offices in the land have become a joke through the nomination process... The Republican TEA Party has infected an otherwise simple process with clouded messages, incoherent dialogue, strange candidates, tactless organizing,ineffective answers, clueless voices, arbitrary answers and "NO" leadership.

Now I'm not Albert Einstein, but to place these candidates on the ballot much less in the esteemed council of some of the greatest minds that occupy those chambers, is utter insanity.

It's funny, because that's EXACTLY how I would describe the President and Democrat-majority congress we have now.

How could ANYONE vote for Obama, knowing his absolute lack of ANY leadership/executive/business experience, not to mention his close ties to COMMUNISTS (Van Jones et. al.), DOMESTIC TERRORISTS (Bill Ayres et.al.), and RACISTS (Jeremiah Wright), his membership in the Democratic SOCIALISTS of America, and the clearly stated animosity and bitterness with which he views this country.

I was no George W. fan. He spent money like a liberal, failed to secure the border, and pushed the constitutionally questionable Patriot Act.

All together, NO ONE threatens this country more than the pinkos in the democrat party. They OUT-LIE everyone (their familiar tactic is to blame others of what THEY THEMSELVES are guilty of), they OUT-TAX everyone, especially the middle class!

They always say they are for the working person, then they ALWAYS raise taxes on the working middle class. We get stuck with the bill for all the socialist crap they shove down our throats. I can't wait for NOV 2! See ya commie dogs!

Do we not have an attorney general who should look at these charges against both the CofC and the President.

He is the one who should not be sitting on his hands.

Nashville,

Maybe you are correct, it might not have ever come off his lips, but below you can see that the "White House Staff & Report" comes from his office. Therefore, I ask the question, since he is president, does the "Buck Stop There".

Jan. 9, 2009, report called "The Job Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan" from Christina Romer, chairwoman of the president's Council of Economic Advisers, and Jared Bernstein, the vice president's top economic adviser.

Their report projected that the stimulus plan proposed by Obama would create 3 million to 4 million jobs by the end of 2010. The report also included a chart predicting unemployment rates with and without the stimulus. Without the stimulus (the baseline), unemployment was projected to hit about 8.5 percent in 2009 and then continue rising to a peak of about 9 percent in 2010. With the stimulus, they predicted the unemployment rate would peak at just under 8 percent in 2009.

Now is the report generated by his top economic advisers his responsibility or just theirs. Did he not stand behind the ARRA? So even if he might not have spoken the words, he used this report to get votes on it.

And you might want to some more research on his creating jobs. Since taking office, through June of 2010--the Obama administration has lost 3.1 million jobs--or job creation is down 1.6%--I didn't do the research, I allowed Wikipedia to do it, under "president's job creations"--they have a table/chart that goes back to 1920. But the good thing for Obama is that his term is not over with--which could allow that number to change.

And actually, under Bush 2 he only created 1.1 million jobs over 8 years. But at the same time, jobs weren't being lost because of bank failures, overspending by the american public, bad government regulations, outsourcing, or wall street, or whatever other excuse there is.

So maybe reality should not get in the way on either side of the aisle:0

Biggerproblems:

I didn't see any facts from you that would rebut my points.

Navy...my data is spot on. See, congress approves and spends the budget, not the president. GOP only had congress for 6 years during the Bush presidency. So, Nancy and crew, when they rejected and rewrote Bush's budget should be held accountable for the excess spending.

The housing bubble, causing the recession, was more a result of democratic policies encouraging lax lending rules. Just because the bubble burst when Bush was president doesn't mean he is responsible. Blaming Bush for the recession shows how out of touch you libs are with the facts.

Regarding deficit spending (stimulus) in the long run it will have no effect except to take money from those who work and save and give to those who live wreaklessly and expect someone to bail them out of their own mistakes. The spending may have cushioned the recession but it will be a lead weight on any recovery.

If you want jobs then stop over regulating and taxing those who create jobs. Business uncertainty of what obummer will do next is what's causing business to sit on cash and not invest.

Time- I could go over a laundry list of reasons why President Obama was the best choice, but all I need is one... he knew what he was talking and campaigning about and he is doing what he promised... balancing the economy.

But I will go a step further and tell you that you were willing to allow Bush politics to continue by voting for McCain and a stone throw from office Sarah Palin to legislate this country into a war torn third world... I know that you were willing to allow Government to grow and taxes to be raised in McCain's 100 year war... I know all this because of your meat tossing TEA Bagging talking point.

Gee whiz, chalk another up to the narrow minded.

The housing bubble, causing the recession, was more a result of democratic policies encouraging lax lending rules. Just because the bubble burst when Bush was president doesn't mean he is responsible. Blaming Bush for the recession shows how out of touch you libs are with the facts.

I don't blame either president. Wall Street sold those mortgages and then bet that they would fail. They won, we lose. Facts.

The Wall Street bail-out started under Bush. Fact.

We should have let AIG and the whole system fail. That's my opinion. They lose...and probably the rest of us would have as well.

It's a hard spot to be in for all us, including whoever is President.

But he is my president and I pray for his success. I realize a lot people are praying for failure and calling that a patriotic thing to do.

RanRan

"I realize a lot people are praying for failure and calling that a patriotic thing to do."

I agree!

All you need do is look at the national debt on Treasury Direct. You can go from 1/01 to 1/09 when GWB went in and went out or you can go from 11/00 to 11/08 when both were elected. BO is charged from 1/09 to present. BO is accountable for '09, 10, and a projected 2011. That's 3 trillion dollar a year deficits on his books. As for 2 unfunded wars, that's political garbage. If he didn't budget them, they were pay as you go and they go on his deficit and his national debt. Budgeted or not, the end result is the same. Somebody wrote that unemployment was 7.6% went BO took office. That's correct. I hope I get this right. There were 2.6 million jobs lost in 2008; of that, 1.4 million were lost in the last 4 months of the year. I'm pretty sure that's correct. The facts are these. GWB dug a hole and BO is still digging and it hasn't stopped yet.

Big Bear:

I am very familiar with the "The Job Impact of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan".

As you indicated, the date it was released was January 9th.

The President wasn't sworn in until January 20th.

These are the very first words of the report:

"A key goal enunciated by the President-Elect concerning the American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan is that it should save or create at least 3 million jobs by the end of 2010. For this reason, we have undertaken a preliminary analysis of the jobs effects of some of the prototypical recovery packages being discussed. Our analysis will surely evolve as we and other economists work further on this topic. The results will also change as the actual package parameters are determined in cooperation with the Congress."

Got that? The report is a PRELIMINARY ANALYSIS of a PROTOTYPICAL PACKAGE which will EVOLVE. Could it be stated any more clearly than that?

Now, here is the statement that has somehow been taken out of this PRE- PRESIDENTIAL report and put into the President’s mouth, as if by magic:

"First, the likely scale of employment loss is extremely large. The U.S. economy has already lost nearly 2.6 million jobs since the business cycle peak in December 2007. In the absence of stimulus, the economy could lose another 3 to 4 million more. Thus, we are working to counter a potential job loss of at least 5 million. As Figure 1 shows, even with the large prototypical package, the unemployment rate in 2010Q4 is predicted to be approximately 7.0%, which is well below the approximately 8.8% that would result in the absence of the plan.

Second, as emphasized above, there is considerable uncertainty in our estimates: both the impact of the package on GDP and the relationship between higher GDP and job creation are hard to estimate precisely. . ."

Once again, it is CLEARLY STATED that these are ESTIMATES and LIKELY to be incorrect. So why is the media pretending like the President predicted definitively that the stimulus would keep unemployment under 8% when he NEVER DID?

Read the report for yourself here:

http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf

DNV,

Lets try to work on some of your questions?

What you are going to do to lower the deficit, what programs are you going to cut?

1. Cut the amount of money shipped overseas for foreign aid in 1/2 to 3/4

2. Cut pork barrel projects--why do we need to spend government money researching cow burping, marsh mice, or any other thing like that. That should be a private sector investment.

3. Reform the SS system--make it where you only get what you pay & your employer pay into the system. Since we don't have the 154 workers per retiree that we had in 1940, (2.9 workers per retiree today).

4. Cut the salaries of the Congress and the amount allowed for their staffs by 25%. They already have built in freebies and great tax deductions. And they make more outside of politics than they do inside. So what do they really need high salaries for.

5. Reform Welfare programs that keep people on welfare instead of encouraging them to get off it.

6. Reform the Tax system allowing less loopholes, deductions, and flat rates at the end for everyone. Instead of 49% of the population not paying taxes, everyone needs to pay a percentage. (a certain percent of the population gets benefits, yet pays nothing into the system)

How are you going to create Jobs here in the US and NOT outsource them?

1. We are going to have to get the Unions to drop their salaries. Many union workers are overpaid, but at the same time, especially in the auto industry, their jobs are becoming automated. So to keep a job or get a job, they are going to have to take a cut in pay.

2. Businesses need to know that they are not going to be fined because they can't afford to cover their employee health insurance. They need to allowed to form Co-ops to purchase insurance, or they won't hire new people.

3. Although oil and gas are the rage, I know we need alternative fuels, therefore we must find ways to invest in wind, solar, and hydro energy. I would think that tax credits would be beneficial in these areas. I know that in West Texas they are paying higher than oil jobs. At the same time we need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. So drilling is still an option.

4. We also have to remember that with automation and computers, a lot of jobs are lost because we don't need humans to do them. Although it could lead to the Terminator showing up, oops, he's in California...But the service industry is a growing sector. But what we have to teach many of these new employees and employers is customer satisfaction. Many of these people have no idea how to treat and respect their customers.

How are you going to improve education, our infrastructure?

1. Education is a hard one to work on, but I can tell you that there are several things that need to be changed. a). Class sizes need to be smaller, b). teachers need better salaries, c). teachers don't need to fear innovation with technology, but embrace it, d). not everyone is a college student, I still believe that college is a privilege, not a right. You have to earn your college degrees.

2. Infrastructure is one of the areas that I agree with most liberals, democrats, or anyone else. We need to fix the interstates, bridges, and national parks of this country. I would rather us cut other programs to make sure these are done correctly. Have you ever driven in Louisiana, the absolute worst roads in America. But it has to be done giving everyone chance to work those jobs, not just union employers. And it has to be done quickly, working 24 hours a day, instead of years and years of waiting for a project to get completed.

sdw:

Did you read the blog post that you are commenting under? The deficit is the result of unfunded tax cuts, unfunded wars, and the unfunded Medicare prescription benefit passed by the Republican Congress and signed by President Bush.

When President Obama was inaugurated, the deficit was projected at 1.2 Trillion dollars.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9957/01-07-Outlook.pdf

The latest projection is 1.3 trillion dollars, a DROP in the deficit from just last year.

$1.3 trillion deficit a slight improvement

Friday, October 8, 2010

The federal budget deficit fell to nearly $1.3 trillion this year - slightly lower than last year's record of $1.4 trillion - as the cost of a federal bank bailout came in much lower than expected and corporate profits rebounded sharply, congressional budget analysts said Thursday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/07/AR2010100706669.html

Once again, reality does not match the narrative being sold to the American people by the "corporate people".

The Health Reform Bill CUTS the deficit.

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/03/20/how-health-care-reform-reduces-the-deficit-in-5-not-so-easy-steps.html

Don't believe everything the anonymous "corporate people" tell you.

Nashville,

Again, you are playing with words. Is this the plan that Obama used to get the stimulus package passed through Congress? Yes or No

This was his plan, you and he need to live up to that. I still don't think that it is working, Obama himself has said that the "shovel ready" projects weren't there. Will jobs increase in the future when more of it is enacted. Maybe.

Even the CBO doesn't know what and how many jobs have been saved. Read JohnA's post of 1.4 to 3.3 million jobs saved. But no real figures, because you and I know, the White House will use 3.3 and the opposition will use 1.4.

It is like you using specific words from the document. If it was his plan, then he needs to stick with it. Not use words to get of saying something. It has not done what it was suppose to do, stimulate the economy. But he did get some nice expensive signs out of it:)

Big Bear:

Going to the report that you cited and printing what it said is playing with words?

Trying to turn an estimate based on a fictional stimulus bill into a "promise" from the President is playing with words.

Big bear,

Thanks for the catch.

For clarification, the reason they have placed 10 years at his feet is because no one can blame Bush for anything. He started 2 unnecessary wars and wasted billions on them. He attacked 2 countries that did nothing to us.

The money we are screaming at Obama for was and is being spent in this country.

Nashville,

This is the stimulus package that he wanted, this is the stimulus package that he and his aids reported on and came up with. This is what the man should stand behind, not words that allow us to not stand behind our documents.

Gee, I am glad that Thomas Jefferson stood behind his words, even though some of them had to be stricken to get a compromise among 13 colonies.

But I guess you would back Bush 1, because in reality he gave us "NO NEW TAXES", because technically the "NEW" taxes that he gets credit for were already on the books, they were just raised.

Big Bear:

Foreign aid and earmarks make up 1% of the Federal Budget COMBINED

Fact Check: Do pork projects and foreign aid each account for 1 percent of the federal budget?

– A May 2009 poll for the non-partisan Kaiser Family Foundation noted that 45 percent of Americans incorrectly thought that foreign aid was one of the two largest areas of federal spending.

– According to a spokesperson for the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), $41.09 billion is slated for foreign assistance in the 2011 budget. That is slightly more than 1 percent of the proposed $3.83 trillion budget.

– The OMB says that for 2010, Congress identified $10.37 billion in earmarks. That would be less than 0.3 percent of the estimated $3.72 trillion 2010 budget.

Bottom Line: True. While people might be inclined think that foreign aid and "pork projects" are the biggest obstacles to a balanced budget, in reality those areas each make up about 1 percent or less of the federal budget.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/03/cnn-fact-check-obama-discusses-foreign-aid-and-pork-projects/

Here is pie chart of the Federal Budget

http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/budget_pie_gs.php

You quote the oft repeated talking point that 50% of Americans are not paying taxes. That is because to pay INCOME tax you have to make enough income. Those with the income are paying the taxes Big Bear, which is how it should be, no?

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers)."

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

20% of America controls 80% of the wealth. They got the money so they should pay the taxes, no?

I mean the "corporate people" want to have their cake and it it too - out of one side of their mouth the rail against paying a living wage, and out of the other they claim they are "carrying" folks not making enough to pay income taxes. What a crock!

You say you want to reform the tax structure.

Will your reform of the tax structure address the fact that most corporations operating in the US pay ZERO taxes?

“Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

More than half of foreign companies and about 42 percent of U.S. companies paid no U.S. income taxes for two or more years in that period, the report said.

During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion . . .”

You quote the oft repeated talking point that 50% of Americans are not paying taxes. That is because to pay INCOME tax you have to make enough income. Those with the income are paying the taxes Big Bear, which is how it should be, no?

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2007, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 34.6% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 50.5%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 85%, leaving only 15% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers)."

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

Will your reform of the tax structure address the fact that most corporations operating in the US pay ZERO taxes?

“Most U.S. and foreign corporations doing business in the United States avoid paying any federal income taxes, despite trillions of dollars worth of sales, a government study released on Tuesday said.

The Government Accountability Office said 72 percent of all foreign corporations and about 57 percent of U.S. companies doing business in the United States paid no federal income taxes for at least one year between 1998 and 2005.

More than half of foreign companies and about 42 percent of U.S. companies paid no U.S. income taxes for two or more years in that period, the report said.

During that time corporate sales in the United States totaled $2.5 trillion . . .”

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1249465620080812

I also find it interesting that you think the solution is to cut “union salaries”, when in fact it is CEO compensation that has skyrocketed.

“The average CEO of a major corporation in the U.S. was paid $15 million in 2005, and the figure has climbed dramatically since then. The average U.S. worker's salary in 2005 was $40,000 and it has actually declined during the recession.”

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201008/are-ceo-salaries-out-control

I also find it interesting that you think the solution is to cut “union salaries”, when in fact it is CEO compensation that has skyrocketed.

“The average CEO of a major corporation in the U.S. was paid $15 million in 2005, and the figure has climbed dramatically since then. The average U.S. worker's salary in 2005 was $40,000 and it has actually declined during the recession.”

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wired-success/201008/are-ceo-salaries-out-control

You say you want tax breaks and incentives for Green Energy . . . well guess what? That is just what the much maligned Stimulus Bill provided:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101059253

http://www.matternetwork.com/2010/9/how-obamas-stimulus-creating-green.cfm

Tea party candidate so easy a cave woman can do it.

Nicely stated, Nash. As with most topics the Conservative rhetoric has no basis in reality. The reality is that money is RUSHING from the pockets of average Americans into the Swiss bank accounts of the very wealthy. It can't go into their back pockets because the Republican Party is already there.

Nashville,

The OMB says that for 2010, Congress identified $10.37 billion in earmarks. That would be less than 0.3 percent of the estimated $3.72 trillion 2010 budget.

Gee, if I didn't know better, that would 10.37 billion dollars that could be used to pay down the deficit.

I am for closing the loopholes that allow corporations not to pay as much in taxes. Since the supreme court ruled that they are the same as individuals, they should have to pay a flat rate tax also.

According to a spokesperson for the Office of Management and Budget (OMB), $41.09 billion is slated for foreign assistance in the 2011 budget. That is slightly more than 1 percent of the proposed $3.83 trillion budget.

Another increase, considering that in 2009 that was 28 Billion. Why the increase foreign aid when we supposedly can't take care of our own. I suggest that we cut that by 50 to 75%. Your people on here asked for what should be cut, I gave suggestions. And now you want to argue that it is less than 1% of the budget.

What are you willing to cut and reform to make the government budget balanced? What are you willing to do to stop the deficit? Keep spending money we don't have.

Shouldn't we cut all non-military government employee salaries by 10 to 20%, considering on average they make double what the median income in the US is. We are the taxpayers, paying their salaries, so should we cut those salaries to save money. Because in most businesses, salaries are the biggest expense.

Where would you cut? Or do we just spend our way out of debt?

Big Bear:

How about we cut out unfunded wars and unpaid for tax cuts?

How about we cut out corporate welfare for oil companies and health insurance companies and banks?

How about we stop all the for profit schools from getting paid with federal student loan money when they are offering junk degrees?

Nashville,

Where's the answer, I thought our President was getting us out of these wars? I thought we were down to a skeleton in Iraq.

Wasn't this president that helped give welfare to the banks, insurance, and auto industry, because they were "too big" to fail. That is what welfare is.

I agree that corps should be taxed, just like individuals if that is what they can do for election contributions.

I thought that all colleges were in it to make money. So does that include Ohio State, Nebraska, or University of Oregon?

Where are the real cuts coming from? Why not government jobs getting slashed some? Why not cut foreign aid, and pork barrel? What are your solutions. Real ones, that the people can read and like or dislike. Where are any of the answers, except unfunded wars, and tax cuts. According what I read on the news, those unpaid for tax cuts end December 31, 2010. So that is one less thing you can protest.

Ran Ran

I don't see much difference between Bush and Obama. Neither of them is a good businessman. Neither should be President. Neither of them can fix the economy. Both of them are spend spend. Both of them have increased the size of government. They both like their vacations when the country is in crisis. They both love to stump. And they both have had a clear majority in Congress.

After Bush, why should we go through another number of years with a President that can't do the job? It's time to bring back the Checks and Balances back to Washington by voting the Republicans in charge of Congress.

I get so sick of people saying Bush wasn't good and Obama isn't good, and saying it as to say the other is/was. They are both bad for the country. How much are we going to take?

LouisJ, you forgot to mention the most useless legislator in history, Michelle Bachmann. Hello in Minnesota... vote for Tarryl Clark!!!

Hi, Harley: I live in Minnesota, though not in Bachmann's district. Sadly, I think Bachmann is going to win that one, and I have sent money to Clark's campaign. She is in this odd district that takes in the Northern 'burbs, going toward a town that is most often in the paper over some kind of racism. It is an embarrassment to the rest of us.

I empathize Harley and newday. I think that her attempt to take over the TEA Party along with her Sister Sarah, that they will sabotage the Destruction of America. We can only hope.

BigBear62 and Nashville - Your back-and-forth is really pretty interesting. I've actually copied and saved most of it in a spearate docuemnt to organize a new 'Vine post on the material when I have the time. Thanks to both of you for stating your points so clearly and relatively nicely, too.

Big Bear, I do have to take issue with one of yo0ur most recent observations. President Obama did NOT bail out the financial institutions (insurance companies AND banks) because they were "too big to fail." That initiative was on Bush's watch - and before a shell-shocked Congress, watching the entire world's finances literally going down the toilet, the TARP plan as proposed was virtually an ultimatum from Bush and his team. One of the worst aspects of that action was failure to put limits on executive pay and perquisites, including bonuses, which Obama's team later attempted to somewhat correct.

Bailout of the auto industry was clearly called for, and despite many complaints, a success. Without that action, the United States would have lost virtually 90% of its remaining manufacturing base, and foreign auto companies now making or assembling vehicles in the U.S. would have had to halt their operations as well.

As for all the rest, I'm taking some time to think and assemble an article. Thanks for the material, and rest assured you'll both be credited with whatever I use of your stuff.

Terrific and thoughtful. While the 2008 campaign was exciting with thoughtful and intelligent debate, the 2010 election is the polar opposite. This election involves wondering which candidate will say the crazier thing next.

Pat

Excellent summary of the big picture. The entire gaggle of Tea Party candidates have not a clue about governing this country.

Pat: Great posting. "The GOP is by nature dishonest." But you believe that they told you the truth about 9/11?

"This to me is the story of this election. If the teabaggers aka the Republican Party win, then it proves we have become a country of racists, a country of liars".......

**********************************************************

Ok. So let's get this straight. We were NOT a country of racists and liars just TWO years ago when Obama was elected? Or we were, but for the previous two years we weren't, but will be if the elections don't go your way? Or...we were two years ago when Obama was elected but somehow he squeaked into the White House? What are you saying he stole the election? I'm confused. But not 1/100th as confused as you are.

If the election goes your way, we're all ok. If not, we're a nation of Klan members. You're a genius, you know that?

"Griffith was shocked and deeply hurt by the negative reactions to his film. He truly thought he was selflessly performing an honorable function for the nation, and many Americans shared his views."

I realize that you're speaking of racism, but I think this serves as a metaphor for much of what the Reactionary Right does. Those on the fringe are in control of the GOP now, and they really think their crazy ideas are what's necessary to "save" the country. History will not look well upon this era in which the Conservative Movement mainlined hate and crazy outlooks like those of the Militia Movement and John Birch Society.

There is just one little problem with the statement that Obama' 2011 budget will cut the deficit. . .

THERE IS NO 2011 BUDGET.

Congress has not drafted one. Ipso facto, Obama has not signed one.

Nice try, though. Talk about smoke and mirrors, not to say outright lies.

So, why no budget? Well, the democrats have enough albatrosses hanging around their necks with the stimulus that stimulated nothing but the deficit, HCR that no one wanted except Obama, a deficit that has tripled on Obama's watch for which he takes no responsibility, a disintegrating situation in Afghanistan due to an incredibly STUPID war plan, Iranian nukes, North Korean nukes, ad nauseum.

Obama, on the other hand, has been way too busy to push for a budget. He has been campaigning like a mad fiend, between rounds of golf, b-ball pick up games, multiple vacations, and appearances on television programs such as the View, Mythbusters, and now, the poor, overworked man has worked in an appearance on the Daily show set to air next week.

Whew! We didn't elect a president. We elected the reincarnation of Robin Leach!

Maybe MSNBC will do the country a favor and give him a primetime show. I bet it would actually boost your ratings somewhat, and, not only would it save the country from two more years of Obama led destruction, but it might actually save your party.

Maybe give it some thought after November 3.

Pat, Boston;

Good point. I was watching Joe Blow this am on MSNBC and they were having a discussion with Kent Conrad. It was reported that most economist (especially several staunch republicans) have now accepted the fact that TARP and ARRA did work, and probably saved this country from a depression unlike anything we have seen in history. They claimed that without these Bills there would have been an additional 8 Million People on the unemployment roles, the rate would be around 15% and we would not have the market recovery we have today.

Source: MSNBC Joe S.

Great post Pat-

I have always hated the movie Birth of a Nation. Being a White man I feel embarrassed that there are still people out there who think this is a fine film and very representitive of the Blacks (or anyone else who isn't Whity White).

Thanks for your great post.

Thanks to you all. How I wish you all were more representative of our country. Unfortunately, it's not the case any longer.

The teabaggers are the Republican Party. And they haven't changed one iota in all these years.

Thanks for telling it like it is Pat . . . I wish more people would.

gosh, aren't party politics like pro football. chearleaders, bashing the other party, hat wearing, tail gate parties, button wearing, face painting.

Just goes on and on. Dems caused it, rep caused it.

If there was a candidate that promised to make it a civil offense to particpate in such self serving party politics I would vote for him(her)

Powerful post Pat!

As for the one above me by CU... FTTS...

hahahaha

to think anyone would get on here and claim to be intellectually superior than another poster while at the same time fully supporting either of the 2 completely dishonest and corrupt political parties is hilarious and disgusting at the same time.

you are all wasting your time fighting each other while the politicians continue to steal from under your noses. looks like they win again...

CU Farley,

It's funny how people think that everyone is sitting around waiting for a check every month. that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. People are not on welfare because they want to be it's because they have to be. You now have college educated people who lost their jobs applying for assistance to help cover what unemployment can't. We as citizens of this country need to stop falling for that politcal party bull crap. It's about doing whats right for our country as a whole. we need to choose our leaders not because of their affiliation but in belief that they will do what's best for the american people. I think government spending as a whole needs to be reduced, I also believe that companies should get a payroll tax credit when they hire new employees. We should have a government that stops looking to the left our the right for answers but at themselves to see how to fix the problems we are having. Instead they will try to align themselves with their party and point fingers until the term is up and talk about all the great things they supposedly had accomplished.

Lets see if I can parrot someone that describes the party of 'We Don't Care About The Middle Class'. Bush Jr............

"This is an impressive crowd -- the haves and the have mores. Some people call you the elite -- I call you my base." --at the 2000 Al Smith dinner

Pat - You follow Maddow. Your posts are of no relevance or import to any but the furthest left in this country.

Yes I do! But an ignorant a$$ hole such as yourself would rather complain about the president instead of realizing that the system as a whole is flawed because of this Liberal/ conservative bull$hit. Let me ask you a question? why is it that after the president( and not just Obama) addresses congress. The opposite party has to address the nation to tell there side of the story. Our government will never get anything accomplished until we fix this left and right wing problem. I guess it's easier to whine like a little girl then it is to find a solution Independent thinker! Let me get back to work before you think I'm one of those free loading welfare or unemployment recipients.

Funny how the right trashes the CBO, CBPP when their analysis supports the Democrats. When the CBO, CBPP favors the Republicans they walk on water. You cannot have it both ways. It is called "Hypocrisy". Man Up.

That's good. Now, we're going to hold GWB or someone responsible for all budget deficits from 2011 to 2020. Get real! BO took the books the minute he set foot in the office. If he can't handle them; then, get out of there. A kindergarden class won't go fot that.

SDW: You seem incapable of neutral analysis. A president in his first year in office is a hostage to the budget from the last Administration. Clinton handed Bush43 a surplus. Bush43 handed Obama a deficit which cannot be reversed in anything less than twenty years. It takes expenditures to get the car out of the ditch and make the repairs and to keep the saboteurs from having another crack at it.

What I see in these comments, bigotry, lot's of it. Not from the Tea Partiers, but from the people on here with their comments.

Pat-MA, you are the biggest bigot on here today. Blaming everyone for racism against the president. Maybe the President is in over his head. Maybe the people surrounding him are in over their heads.

You make charges just like Obama, but where is the proof that Tea Partiers are racist. Please, until you provide proof, they are innocent. At least that is what this country was suppose to founded. Innocent until proven guilty. Empty charges. I suppose there is not a single racist NAACP member? Not a single racist Democrat? Bigotry will destroy this country before the economy does, because people have nothing to stand on except blaming someone else. Does anyone correlate this to Nazi Germany?

"where is the proof that Tea Partiers are racist." Well, OK;

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/04/25/are-tea-partiers-racist.html

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&expIds=17259,25522,26637,26992,27013,27023,27103&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=tea+party+racism&cp=16&wrapid=tljp1287602084168026&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1259&bih=819

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andy-ostroy/the-tea-party-movement-is_b_538750.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38234502/ns/politics/

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-07-14/politics/naacp.tea.party_1_tea-party-hilary-shelton-rampant-racism?_s=PM:POLITICS

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/joan_walsh/politics/2010/03/20/tea_party_racism

http://www.npr.org/blogs/tellmemore/2010/03/gop_pressured_to_end_tea_party.html

http://www.louisianaweekly.com/news.php?viewStory=2395

Is every TPer a flaming racist? Of course not, that's a ridiculous accusation. It's hard not to see, though, that it's a movement that's comfortable with racists and wants to provide a comfortable atmosphere for them.

EVERY President is charged with the budget of his predecessor right on down the line. You pick a common start/ stop point for both and quick making excuses. But, but, but, but. but. If he was left a surplus and turned it into a deficit, he used it and then some. OR do you just want to keep subtracting it until you get the right figure. Don't you think that the folks that calculate these things know that? The national debt in a running figure, president by president, year by year. Oh, Carter left Reagan a heck of a mess. God forbid he spent money. He's a Republican

No Joe, thank you for iluminating on the budget statement. I find it amazing how so many lies originate as truth. and the reason why no budget is also enlightening, but the clueless fools that couldn't find their own butts with both hands still will not accept this fact.

John B,

For working 50 hours a week you spend a lot of time on here during the day. I know, I know it's not my business, but I know the airport in Des Moines is not 24 hours. That's just me though...............If you want an equal opportunity, this Government won't work for you.

OUTSTANDING post Jody, it really paints the full picture of what's going on, and has been for 3 decades. Conservatives give the working man a pittance with one hand while stealing with the other. The unprecedented accumulation of wealth at the top is all you need to know.

Jody, I debunked this particular line of malarkey yesterday, WITH NUMBERS.

You posted the same garbage today, once again, WITHOUT NUMBERS.

Long and short: Obama's deficit last year was over nine per cent of GDP, this year, it is well over ten and a half per cent of GDP, and climbing. It may well exceed eleven per cent of GDP when all is said and done.

Did I mention that there is still no budget for fiscal '11? The year started on the first of this month. That means that the government is running on a continuing resolution, and will resolve the issue with an omnibus bill after the midterms. Remember last year's? Had over nine thousand earmarks. Imagine what the lame duck congress can do this year!

You just keep fighting the good fight, blaming Reagan, blaming Bush. Tell you what, why not aim some fire at McKinley, while you are at it. After all, he was a Republican.

John, you don't get it do you? Well, maybe you do. You vote for whomever is going to 'give' the working man the most. Why don't you stop expecting someone to take care of you and go make something of yourself. There is plenty of room 'at the top' if you get off your butt and add value to society. Instead of complaining about what someone else has there is NOTHING stopping you from earning a better living...well...except for all those folks that expect the gov't to take care of them.

Nice assumption that you have ANY IDEA who I am or how I live, Hobie. I work over 50hrs/wk and I'm proud of what I do. In return for that I'd like to make that climb to the top, but actual research as opposed to Sean Hannity monologues shows that the United States actually has one of the LOWEST rates of social mobility http://angryfutureexpat.wordpress.com/2010/03/20/a-picture-of-the-present-sallie-mae-a-boot-stomping-on-a-human-face-forever/ and it's actually getting worse. http://www.brendan-nyhan.com/blog/2005/01/the_economist_o.html The Conservative war on the middle class is entering its late phases and those at the very top are winning. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB116849172911973577.html

I don't want a check from the government, I want an equal shot at climbing the ladder. That's pretty tough when the Republican Party and the Chamber of Commerce are trying to turn the US of A into the next China.

Hobbie81;

you still do not get it do ya?

The top 1% have 35% of the Net Worth and 43% of the Financial Wealth

The next 4% have 27% of the Net Worth and 29% of the Financial Wealth

That means the top 5% control 62% of the Net Worth and 72% of the Financial Wealth

The next 5% have 11% of the Net Worth and 11% of the Financial Wealth, which means 83% of the wealth in America is in the hands of 10% of the population. The fastest growing segment is the top 1%

You must be in one of the above groups. If not, got news for you, the republican party has no place for you. You will be in the same boat as the rest of us.

Can you swim????

jody - seems that reagan also inherited a recession from carter and that many of the programs you cite are also applicable to today as in 2010,

BTW what iowa congressional district are you from? I might have to change my vote to counteract yours!

Miss Jody, What I believe is that BO is "the greatest spender of all time" and deep down in my heart of hearts----I'm going to vote that bum out of there. I'm sick of the GWB blame. I'm sick of "look at the mess he inherited". All you people do is assign blame and make excuses. BO's a big boy now. Shut up and clean it up-----IF you can. Sorry, wrong guy, wrong place, wrong time.

Ah, so you're going to go with the "Barack Obama hasn't done anything" meme. Too bad he's already kept at least 122 of his campaign promises. Would have been over 200 if Republicans didn't have over 80 of them tied up in Congress. http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

Really doesn't matter. I see nothing but more of the "blame game". I could care less what he kept. I'm concerned with those he didn't. Hey, here's one for you. A lot of Dems will be hitting the street on Nov. 2nd. We'll keep that one. Then in 2012, we'll send him home too.

No Joe, you didn't debunk squat yesterday, least of all did you debunk this post. The numbers I posted were for what took place in the 1980's--no where did I say they were today's numbers.

Perhaps if all of you naysayers really looked at what I wrote for its content, and gave thought to why we are debt ridden, you might have some arguments. The truth hurts to realize that it is the great Reagan and Bush 43 whose policies led us down the debt road. You cannot blame the democrats because they didn't sign the bills--Reagan and Bush 43 did.

The '82 recession was just as bad if not worse than it is now. Unemployment peaked at 10.7%. Inflation hit 17% The prime rate went over 20% That's right, 20% interest to buy a home. Reagan got us out of that and his supply side economics, Reaganomics, trickle down economics, worked. Now, is that the theory the US should use all the time----no, but it did what it was supposed to do when we needed it. In 4 years, BO will increase the national debt more than GWB did in 8. The truth does hurt. BO is not running now, but people are looking at this as a referendum on his policies. I'll admit. It could turn. I don't think so.

SDW: Are facts just optional in your life?

For you. The 1982 recession started in July, 1981 and ended in Nov., 1982. I stand corrected on inflation. It hit 14.76% in March, 1980. Unemployment peaked at 10.8% in Nov., 1982 The prime interest rate hit 21.5% in June, 1982. Next time, do your own leg work.

...Jody...........Please do not confuse republicans with facts, they prefer to rely upon slogans and sound bites.................Great post though, I have been saying the same thing about where our down fall began, eventually the truth will overwhelm the rhetoric

Yes it will. It'll start on Nov. 2nd and carry right on through to 2012. I believe it will be overwhelming.

They're psychic. The main stream media needs a narrative and when things look good, then they become sooth sayers to balance the field.

Reminds me of 2008, when every primary between Obama and Clinton was dissected into white men/women, blacks, hispanics, college degree or none, blue-collar/white collar. The only thing that mattered was who won.

When I read this statement by the FR folks, who should know better, Nash, I thought to myself----why even have the elections? Let's just let the media tell us how the elections should have turned out and move on with our lives.

Why would nonwhites turn out? In one of the stories that should have been up here today Republican-associated 527 groups are trying to place Spanish language ads claiming the best way for Latinos to be heard this year is to NOT VOTE!!

That shows the full extent to which the Conservative Movement does NOT believe in democracy. I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the voter suppression efforts the Republican Party is mobilizing.

Nash:

Right on...Lord have mercy. What was FR thinking? and How do they know? By looking at poll numbers? Surely not.

Maybe they know this from studying previous elections, where black people had the lowest turnout of any ethnic groups. That is, until 2008 when blacks voted in record numbers for no other reason than a black man was the Dem candidate.

Obama is not running this year. This will cause many black voters to stay home. Obama knows this and that's why he's running around campaigning at rallies filled with black people and he's saying things like "remember 2008" and "don't make me look bad".

CU,

Well I guess we should just give the House and the Senate to the Republican party now then.

Why vote?

You can't print something that HASN'T HAPPENED YET as a FACT, regardless of the topic.

That's not what's going on here, Nashville Fan. What they are saying is that the KEY districts in the election are majority white districts. That is, the districts that could go either way are made up of mostly white people. Because blacks only vote Dem, we already know which candidate will win in the districts that are heavily black.

CU Farley

Maybe they know this from studying previous elections, where black people had the lowest turnout of any ethnic groups. That is, until 2008 when blacks voted in record numbers for no other reason than a black man was the Dem candidate.

Leave it up to you farley to try and start, this comment your WRONG on!!! i guess you forgot the turn out for the 1992 election where 90% of black came out to vote. then there was the mid terms of 1982 where i know in chicago black were at 95% votong against reaganomics!!!!

then back in the day the year was 1960 in which john kenndy would enjoy a up tick in black voters to the tone of 80% (you must understand that this number is low considering Jim crow in the south and no voters rights act)

So farley you attempt to start this black only voted in 08 because Obama is black in a bunch of garbage.

what is interesting to me is that rep mark Kirk is going to challange the voters in black area of chicago (west and south sides) so farley if blacks are not projected to turn out them why is Mark Kirk republican candidate for senate in illinois trying to supress the black vote?????

It's the old "someone's trying to suppress the black vote" deal, eh? It IS Chicago you're talking about. Maybe he's trying to make sure no DEAD black people vote.

It's kinda like this:

If the sun rises in the east for aeons, you kinda trust that it will do so tomorrow. If non-whites don't turn up in large numbers to the pols in mid term elections...you kinda trust that Nov 2, 2010 will show the same.

"The (white) man" isn't telling you that you're not going to vote, just doing some trend analysis.

CU Farley

It's the old "someone's trying to suppress the black vote" deal, eh? It IS Chicago you're talking about. Maybe he's trying to make sure no DEAD black people vote.

Farely its true, i saw the story on CNN and MSNBC but what funny is that if you mapquested the west or south side of chicago and gave him direction he would still be lost because he has never been to the west and south sides of Chicago. he knows that if he has a chance he must suppress the voters in Chicago and the southern suburbs. his district was the northwest suburbs. he is not and never will be welcome in Chicago, unlike others republicans such as Ray LaHood.

Matter of fact mark Kirk almost lost his house seat in the last 2 election cycles to dan seals. he is not to popular in his own district.

Nash:

Since the MSM has already declared the Republicans the winners by a landslide why are we voting again?

How co nvenient that we are now learning that the Medicare Part D Prescrip tion Drug program wil cost more over 10 years than the Bailout,Stimulus, and HCR combined.

Do you think if that information had been made available in August that we would be talking about a Cat 4?

Probably not, because true fiscal conservatives would be smart enough to know the Republicans are selling a lie with their "reduce the deficit" BS.

I hate that I have grown increasingly cynical over the past month, but the MSM is cupable in the approaching "storm" of a Republican takeover of the Congress. They too are bought and paid for when you think of the revenue garnered from this avalance of advertising spawned by the money from (fill in the blank)

say. Sheila, and Nash, et als:

if you have a problem with the coverage now, just WAIT until after the elections.

I have been reading columns and opinion pieces for the last month that have grown increasingly negative about Obama and his 'strategy'. They criticize him for his intellectual snobbery, his disconnect from the electorate, and his political tin ear. These, by the way, are left leaning pundits. Most of the right leaning ones write columns that amount to "I told you so".

The problem, as I see it, is that, having completely abandoned their ethics by not examining Obama as they would any other candidate, they fed the euporia that swept him into office. The result is a lot of extremely miffed voters who feel that they have been had, by both Obama and the media.

They place the blame, however, squarely on the Democrats. So, what is the media to do?

Well, two things simultaneously: first, restore their credibility. Second, save their party.

They do both by doing what they should have done in 2008: expose Obama.

Now, I, for one, do not believe that the Senate will change hands; I do believe that the republicans will wind up with at least 48 seats. Republicans will, in fact, take over the House, and the numbers may well exceed those of 1994.

The bleeding will not stop there. Given their numbers, there may well be democrats who, having just gotten by in their districts, flip parties in order to win again in 2012. So, republican majorities stand to increase after the election. Moreover, in the Senate, you are going to find some Senators, (say, Nelson of Nebraska) suddenly doing windsprints away from the Obama agenda, in an effort to salvage their careers.

The media is not going to like this at all, and they are going to blame Obama. They are set to hound him mercilessly.

Ask Bill Clinton what that felt like. The difference? Clinton had the wherewithall and the agenda approval to tough it out. Think Obama does?

I sure don't.

Thanks for the clarification Mark.

iNJ:

"The problem, as I see it, is that, having completely abandoned their ethics by not examining Obama"

Obama was the most scrutinized candidate in American history.

The media builds people up to tear them down. That is their forte. The good news is the President did not get caught up in the hype.

That is the reason his popularity has taken a hit. He is going to do this job his way and not the way any left leaning pundit suggest he should.

The MSM is not used to the this type of rejection and that is why they have turned on him.

Oh well.

And after all that, coming out of the worst recession in 3 generations, President Obama is STILL more popular than presidents Reagan and Clinton were at this point in their terms. http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx

Sheila, your post is only half-right. Even if the media thoroughly scrutinized Obama, the fact remains that the average, low-information voter who cast for the then-Senator (whether a swinging moderate or a member of the Democratic party-faithful) likely did so merely because of group-think eurphoria.

I agree with Joe's assertion on that front and I can speak from experience on it - perhaps I did not objectively examine Obama to the extent I should've leading into November of 2008.

You also have to consider the possibility that many people may've cast votes for Obama because they were turned off to McCain due to his selection of Sarah Palin for the VP slot.

After two years of the sitting POTUS' policies and a Democrat-majority Congress without the threat of Palin becoming the C-in-C by default and the loss of the sensation of riding the tides of history by sweeping a young, energetic black man into the highest office in the land as a kind of rebuttal to the Bush administration and a century marked with civil strife, it isn't fair to say that Obama is merely the victim of media betrayal as a means to explain away potential Republican gains in a fortnight.

It's dishonest, in fact.

....."A class 4 hurricane"...........nah, .......like most, it will fizzle and become a tropical storm by land fall, .......if so, media will come out with "experts were surprised" like they do with every turn of events that did not coincided with predictions........what the hell makes an expert ?

The MSM is pushing the GOP rout story for ratings and to become 'relevant'. They were spooked by the Obama Campaign for connecting more directly with voters and not following the MSM playbook.

I still remember a Newsweek magazine in Oct 2007. The front page had Mrs Clinton and 4 names of people who may give her a hard time for the DEM nomination. Barack Obama was not among the 4 listed. So while they were talkling over themselves in DC, the Obama campaign was connecting with the voters. We all know how that worked out.

There is no doubt that the voters need to turn out at the polls. If they turn out, then there will be a continued progressive legislation that not only benefits those that voted for it but also those that were against it.

NewWavz. Good points. You are right, the media has yet to figure out President Obama, they are spooked and it annoys them that he is generally ten steps ahead of their thinking, he doesn't play by their rules. The DC wisdom did not consider Barack Obama a viable candidate, it declared Hillary Clinton the eventual winner before the first caucus or primary took place--there simply was no way he could be elected; and then they moved on to convince us that the democratic party could never heal itself from the Clinton/Obama lengthy battle, it would cost the dems the election.

There are still republican moderates and liberals who support what Lincoln stood for. I'm one of them. I hope there are enough of us voting democratic to make the conservatives sorry they ever tied their fate in with the tea party.

Glad to hear that Wade, and I wish we had two healthy political parties. It would be good for our nation. I fondly remember Republicans like Nelson Rockefeller, Bob Ray, there were so many there would be no way to list them all. Eisenhower certainly comes to mind. These were pragmatic people who understood balance and had an appropriate measure of compassion for their fellow man. They understood that letting people fail en masse leads to society failing. Hopefully we'll see that day come again.

Bully for you. One voter in your district voting straight republican cancels you out.

New Wavez - Voting straight ticket for either party is nothing to brag about. It just shows you have a shallow, narrow mind and are easily manipulated.

Then another voter voting straight Democrat puts the Democrats ahead again. Do you get it now Chef Darrell?

What are the Libs, both politicians and bloggers, talking about these days, only 13 days out from the elections? Chamber of Commerce money, complaints of people with ideas that different from theirs, the Koch brothers, George Bush, complaints about the media, voters not "thinking clearly", what Reagan did 30 years ago, Supreme Court Justices wives, the Constitution, and foreign money,

And the Republicans are talking about, . . . . . . jobs.

Now you Libs know why you'll be getting your butts kicked in 13 days.

No, the Republicans are talking about why it isn't THEIR fault there aren't enough jobs...in spite of the fact they've done everything within their power to keep jobs from developing.

STTS

Ironically enough JoAnna, that is what you are talking about too, so much for "controlling the narrative" . . . guess the "American people" were interested after all.

JS1. What are the Libs, both politicians and bloggers, talking about these days, only 13 days out from the elections? Chamber of Commerce money, complaints of people with ideas that different from theirs?

Care to share all those ideas? And Tax cuts dont count.

GB and Nash, didn't you see the super secret Libby code word from Johnny B? Get with the program! STTS already!

John B, Des Moines, IA

"No, the Republicans are talking about why it isn't THEIR fault there aren't enough jobs...in spite of the fact they've done everything within their power to keep jobs from developing."

This is not actually completely true, John- the Repubs are very interested in developing jobs. In China.

GB: And Tax cuts dont count.

Well what about keeping taxes the same, you know, extending the Bush tax cuts? Even Obama is for doing that on at least 83% of those tax cuts, class warfare requires him to not extend those cuts to the evil rich. So why are the Dems and Obama doing this? Even Obama and the Democrats know raising taxes will absolutely kill the economy and destroy more jobs, and extending them will certainly help the job market, if only a little.

I know you can't reply because the STTS signal was given, and you must obey the group, else you're no longer part of the group, so I guess this has become a one-way conversation.

Not too obvious that JS1 is reading off the daily Republican't talking points this morning... lol

God forbid she ever demonstrated an original thought of her own! ;0)

JoAnna:

It's really not that big of a secret . . . I'lll give you a clue . . . the last word rhymes with cupid.

P.S. If the same corporation that outsourced your job started a group to protest the outsourcing of jobs, would you join?

How is the outsourcing of jobs not about jobs?

The Chamber of Commerce advocates the outsourcing of jobs. Then runs ads blaming Democrats for lost jobs.

The Chamber of Commerce lobbied for the passage of the TARP bill. Then runs ads blaming Democrats for passing TARP.

The American people are being played for FOOLS, which is why these donors want to stay anonymous . . . lest their rank hypocrisy be open to the light of day . . . not that the paid off news media would report it.

Ahh, yes, Nash, thank you, the Libs are also talking about corporations and how evil they are.

Do the Libs like any kind of businesses, anyone or anything that manages to try and make some money? Or is it the Libs plan for the government to just take them all over? Like, GM for example.

JoAnna:

Do you think that the founding fathers intened for corporations to be considered people with the same rights as the rest of us?

Do you think that "corporate people" are more or less powerful than "human people"?

How do you propose our system of checks and balances can be maintained in this brave new era of corporate people?

Nash: It's really not that big of a secret . . . I'lll give you a clue . . . the last word rhymes with cupid.

Nash, no one cares about your little Libby club, I'm just poking a little fun at it today. You and the misfit Lib crew want your own little secret language and sayings, have at it. Do you guys have a tree house too?

And please stop with the constant complaining about corporations. Whether it corporate taxes or corporate contributions. there's things that everyone does not like with our tax and electoral system as it continues to evolve. It's getting really boring having the same questions about corporations day in and day out. You've gotten your answers from many people, what more needs to be said?

JoAnna:

It is interesting how much you comment on things you don't care about.

It must be boring for you repeating the same talking points day after day, even after they have been debunked.

Oh well, off to the tree house to drink more Obama-aid! ;o)

P.S. I am not talking about corporations, I am talking about "corporate people". . . try to keep up.

JoAnnaSmith1

What are the Libs, both politicians and bloggers, talking about these days, only 13 days out from the elections? Chamber of Commerce money, complaints of people with ideas that different from theirs, the Koch brothers, George Bush, complaints about the media, voters not "thinking clearly", what Reagan did 30 years ago, Supreme Court Justices wives, the Constitution, and foreign money,

And the Republicans are talking about, . . . . . . jobs.

Now you Libs know why you'll be getting your butts kicked in 13 days.

Joanna Oha Joanna, if ignorance were bless you would be a saint.

what jobs are the Republicans taking about, is it the ones that they are sending overseas, or are you taking about the jobs in a jobsbill they(republicans) are going to introduce in the lame duck session. the truth is Joanna the republicans have not shown anybody they know how to create a job. unless it goes over seas, or its making near minimum wage. all they have told us in is that they ARE GOING TO ADD TO OUR DEFICETS!!!! by extending tax cuts that were supose to and should expire as Former president Bush had intended. if he wanted them to be perminate he had the votes to make sure.

All i here from the republicans are to extend tax cuts, cancel the rest of the stimulas, repeal HRC.

All i here from the tea party is that they want THERE country back. there going to DC to kick liberal some a**.

Joanna what i got from Jodys Post about reagan that has given me so much hope no matter what happens in 2 weeks, is that despite the troubles Reagan had in his first 2 years is that Nothing changed,

liberal in 1982 were saying the same things tea party and republicans are saying right now, the deficits are going to ruin us, spending is out of control(military), the tax cuts are adding to our deficits, it the same conversation 28 years later. but now its the republicans complaining about the same things liberals did back then. (how does it feel being on the other side no too good is it, but i will say what reagan said so many times DEFICETS DON'T MATTER!!!!!!!)

so please put the champagne down, because what i learned through all these mid terms when a president has just come to office and that is they are going to loose seats, maybe the house, or senate but like Reagan and Clinton it did not change theiradjenda.

Reagan did not miss a beat for the next 2 years and was re-elected, Clinton had to give in to the new majority but in the end, he won in a landslide the same as reagan.

Clancnce Thomas is a low life, his wife is in denial that he is a low life. sorry Mrs Thomas, but justice Marshall aruged BROWN-V- BOARD OF ED, that changes american for ever, your husband gave us sexural harrasment laws, i guess its good this kind of dehavor was brough out to the for front but your husdand is forever tied to is, Live with it and don't leave no more messages!!!!

JoAnna, if you think Repubs are going to create jobs if they get the majority, I have a bridge in NYC you might want to buy. How naive can you be?!?! The Repub agenda is for the middle class to be eliminated! They actively encourage businesses to move operations to other countries in order to increase their profits! The unemployment rate will rise steadily for each year the Repubs are in majority in Congress. Even more tax cuts to billionaires and huge corporations will not create jobs, that has already been proven--they just sock it away in their Cayman Is. or Swiss numbered accounts, they don't run out and start businesses and hire people. With even more people out of work, more small and medium sized businesses will fail as there will be fewer and fewer people to buy their products or services. And the down spiral to third world country will continue...

JoAnna S. Why do you support subsidizing the richest 2% of Americans with tax cuts, which will add $750 billion to the debt, by transferring the burden of debt to the average American taxpayer?

Jody Iowa: JoAnna S. Why do you support subsidizing the richest 2% of Americans with tax cuts, which will add $750 billion to the debt, by transferring the burden of debt to the average American taxpayer?

Don't recall saying I did support those cuts. Class warfare is the Libs gig sweetie, and you wear it well.

And why is Obama for extending 83% of the Bush tax cuts? You're so concerned about adding $750 billion to the deficit, and yet Obama is adding $3.7 trillion to the debt by extending those cuts.

You Libs can't see the forest for the trees.

And good luck with the class warfare thing you got going.

Speaking of the uber-secret code "STTS", I'll go with "smarter than thou syndrome" or, depending on the post, "swamp thing theme song"

Joanna,

i would like a response to my post, or what i said has made you slow down. then again you don't answer the post where your challenged to have a good reponse.

The only jobs the republicans are talking about are the ones being outsourced to China, India etc. They are not talking about jobs in the United States. After all they just filibustered the American Job Bill and virtually every other Bill that has been proposed that would create jobs included a recent block of the ARRA extension that almost all economist (republican and democrats) said was a success.

Jeff - I'd be happy to respond to you questions, but it's a real struggle to understand what you're saying because there is little to no focus in your post. You start out with Republicans sending jobs over-seas, and end with Clarence Thomas. You're all over the road Jeff, please try and focus.

Let's just focus on jobs. If you want to talk about Clarence Thomas's wife, you'll have to find someone else.

Lets focus on one thing you commented on: "what jobs are the Republicans taking about, is it the ones that they are sending overseas, or are you taking about the jobs in a jobsbill they(republicans) are going to introduce in the lame duck session. the truth is Joanna the republicans have not shown anybody they know how to create a job"

Republicans are sending jobs overseas? How exactly are they the only party doing so? And Jeff, if you are saying Republican laws, policies, and treaties, have made the sending of jobs overseas easier, why haven't Obama or the Democrats lifted one finger to change those laws, policies, and treaties in the last 2-4 years? This is really the edge of the problem many have about Obama. Obama seems to want to be on the sidelines announcing what is happening without doing anything about it. He's divorced from the entire process. He has the ability to change the direction of our policies and laws, but yet stands there and just whines about it. And instead of doing things to improve the economic environment in the country, Obama instead has burdened business with more laws (ObamaCare) and regulations. He constantly talks businesses down ("Whose a** do I kick today!?"), and he blames businesses for not creating any jobs.

Jeff, the government doesn't create private sector jobs. The government can affect the growth and creation of private sector jobs with well focused and well managed stimulus money, but that's not what has happened with all the stimulus money Obama and the Democrats have spent in the last 20 months. All that stimulus has failed. It failed to prime the pump of job growth in the private, but it did wonders to where it was really spent, on government, both federal and the states.

Now if Obama has a goal of keeping jobs from going overseas, he'll have a chance to implement it, but with a Republican Congress. But I don't think Obama has a plan for job creation. He has not mentioned one yet, and no, the stimulus was not a plan, it was more a payoff. Creating jobs isn't about spending trillions of borrowed dollars. It's about making an environment that fosters and grows the business environment within the country. Lower taxes, reasonable regulations, and simple clear cut trade policies allow businesses to grow. That's where the country needs to go to see job growth.

Joanna, You seem to be a little confused. First you said "Jeff, the government doesn't create private sector jobs.......Then you said "But I don't think Obama has a plan for job creation.

The stimulus created jobs. The Republicans requested and received stimulus funds for their districts, that hired independent contractors, who then hired people to work. They took credit for the jobs they created all the while bashing Obamas Stimulus that they claimed did not work.

Tax cuts, which equates to trickle down economics, contributed to the economic collapse. Clinton had a very high tax rate yet, we did very well. Did you notice how many Republicans voted against regulations?

Now if we get a Republican Congress, they will pass all the bills that were created by Democrats so they can get credit. All the while they blocked them to punish the American people.

If Obama created the only jobs he can (government jobs), Republicans scream "big Government". They support off-shoring jobs and scream at the POTUS "where are the jobs?" They play games and sabotage the American people all in the name of gaining power.

Pietro, this is a truly despicable development. ANYONE who would tell people to participate in democracy by NOT voting is absolutely beneath contempt. Of all the stories I heard yesterday this one got my blood going more than any other because Conservatives are actually trying to destroy the "representative" part of "representative democracy."

Gobs and gobs of text, an exercise in verbal diarrhea. The Libs want to talk about anything and everything, except what the voters want them to talk about.

It's about jobs Libs. When will you learn? I don't think you ever will.

Shame on FR for not bringing this up and thanks to you Pietro for mentioning it. I thought there were no new lows to hit in this election campaign but when I saw this ad I realized I was wrong. I am blessed that no one in my family has ever lost life or limb in a war, but when I think of all of those who have risked everything to protect our rights, including the right to vote, I am appalled that anyone could even suggest not exercising that right to promote their own selfish interests. I am sure the Hispanic community is too intelligent to fall for this and I hope it helps get ALL voters fired up and turning out on November 2.

JoAnna:

The irony of you accusing someone else of "verbal diarrhea" just made my day.

You have not had a relevent thing to say this entire year.

All complaining, all the time. No solutions. No reality based thinking. Sprinkled with a healthy dose of outright lies.

You say the only topic is jobs, but ignore the fact that the voodoo economics you advocate led to tremendous deficits and the second great depression.

How is the weather in your world? Cloudy I'm sure.

NF: How is the weather in your world? Cloudy I'm sure.

Bright and sunny, highs in the mid to upper 70s. Things are looking real good sweetie, at least for us Conservatives.

Storms are on the way for you Libs though. Looking like it might be a Category 4 for you.

JoAnna:

Ooooooo, I is so scared.

Truly.

Pietro: Standing O!!!!!

Joanna, you basically eliminated any releavance to your position by more or less admitting you didn't bother to read Pietro's post just because it had too many words for your liking.

ED - Where did I say, imply, suggest, allude, to not reading Peitro's post?

You really need to sharpen your game ED. You're slipping badly pal.

Pietro. Glad you addressed this today and did it well. Immigration reform was something I also applaud Pres Bush for trying, he was right to do it. The majority of GOPers do not want to reform the laws, it is great election fodder.

Voter supression of minorities has been around for decades. It is despicable but to actually run an ad telling latinos NOT to vote is beyond despicable and speaks volumes about republicans--they lie and they do not care if they are caught. Enjoyed Lawrence O'Donnell's tough interview with the guy heading up the republican Hispanic anti-vote ad; Lawrence was very good.

Pietro - Old news. Won't make much difference anyway. Ya'll are really cranking it up on the humorous postings scale. Still 13 days of anxiety attacks and sleepless nights for you Dems with ever more shrill attack posts on Newsvine.

I'm looking forward to the next few weeks even though my sides are beginning to hurt from laughing at you libbies and proggies so much.

Twisting in the wind, waiting for the hammer to fall on Obama's too leftist program. Don't worry libbies, your pain will be over soon. Take a Prozac & drink a glass of wine.

Gobs and gobs of text, an exercise in verbal diarrhea. The Libs want to talk about anything and everything, except what the voters want them to talk about.

It's about jobs Libs. When will you learn? I don't think you ever will.

Nothing in that post indicates that you read Pietro's post to any degree. Skimmed it, mayhap - but read? Not likely. All that comment tells me is that you saw something that'd be something you might potentially disagree with and immediately wrote it off. If -YOU- won't give your opponents a fair cop and the courtesy of at least hearing them out, why should they (or I) treat your comments with any respect?

Why so angry, Joanna? You were doing well there, for a while - actually reasoning with people and engaging in honest debate, but you've regressed back to being venomous and hateful.

Why is one person here shouting the republicans are talking about creating jobs. The republicans have opposed virtually every Job Bill, every bill that gave tax cuts to small businesses to help create jobs, filibustered the American Jobs Bill, blocked the extension to the ARRA Bill and vowed to block the infrastructure bill if it comes in front of the Senate. OMG, what outright lies and Hypocrisy from the right.

The only jobs the republicans are currently talking about are the ones that are being outsourced to India, China, etc. He!!,the US Chamber of Commerce even holds seminars explaing to the Big Business members on how to do this.

What a "Hypocrite"

US Navy: Why is one person here shouting the republicans are talking about creating jobs. The republicans have opposed virtually every Job Bill

That's because they weren't Jobs Bills. They were payoffs, to state and federal government unions. You see Navy, when you say a bill, a huge mutli-billion dollar spending bill is going to "stimulate job growth", a reasonable person would expect that jobs, private sector jobs, would actually grow. VP Joe Biden even predicted after one of these so called Jobs Bills passed that we'd see private sector job growth on the order of 250,000 to 500,000 jobs a month: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2321155820100423

So who was right Navy? The Democrats, who spent all that money on Jobs Bills that created no jobs? Or the Republicans who tried to stop the Democrats from spending that money? I guess the American people will tell us the answer, in about 13 days.

If it's all about private sector jobs you'll no doubt be eager to celebrate the 9th straight month of private sector job growth in September. http://theuptake.org/2010/10/09/obama-9-straight-months-of-private-sector-job-growth/

The 850,000 jobs created in the private sector this year is a dramatic improvement over the 750,00 per MONTH that were being LOST when Barack Obama became President, and in fact looks pretty good compared to the entire Bush presidency. http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2009/06/a_lost_decade_f.html

Great question pat . . . which is why it will probably be ignored.

Nothing wrong with the real filibuster, the problem is the FAKE filibuster which hands over control to the minority. Abolish the fake filibuster, make them stand and debate for as long as they can muster the energy. (27 hours, tops)

Wonder how Christine O'Donnell feels about the women's right to vote, it isn't in the original Constitution either. The problem for people like O'Donnell is they want a strict constructionist approach but ONLY to eliminate those things they do not like.

Watching that clip of O'Donnell, I almost felt sorry for her, not quite but almost. Anyone who could actually think the audience laughed because they agreed with her when in reality the audience laughed at her. Being in that audience last night, watching someone so obviously unqualified, had to be painful for the attendees.

USNDV,

It is wrong to let even one dollar of foreign money dictate our political elections.

Just out of curiosity, do you feel that non-U.S. car manufacturers that have plants in the U.S. should have no voice? Since labor union policies could have a significant effect on their operations, are they supposed to just sit idly by and take whatever comes along?

I am against any foreign company trying to dictate US Politics. Those employees of that company (who are US citizens) can and should contribute to their party of choice. This is the United States of America and I am against any foreign company trying to buy political votes to enhance their (foreign) agenda. Period.

Corporations are artificial entities created by congress and should be only be allowed such rights and privileges that congress gives them. Corporations are engines of irresponsibility (by design) that can be useful, but must be kept under close guard. Our founders understood this, but modern conservatives (who often claim the mantle of the founders) disregard the warnings in their worship of money and those who posess and control it.

A corporation should not have the same rights as a person. A person is MORTAL, a corporation has the potential of IMMORTALITY.

Nash:

Do you feel that a "corporate person" is more or less powerful than a "human person"?

Corporate persons are virtually immortal and virtually omnipotent. We mere humans must bow down and worship them. They are the true gods of America.

Corporate persons should not have the same rights as humans; corporate persons cannot think, breathe, eat, or drink nor can they make decisions without human person intervention. How can a corporate person have the same rights as a human person when it cannot function as a human does.

Corporate persons are also the ultimate Sociopaths. They have narrow needs that serve as their sole focus, to the exclusion of all else. They have no responsibility to anyone but their shareholders. They have no interest in the needs of people, or of the society. To that extent they have the potential to be highly destructive to society, which is why until recently their rights were kept tightly limited.

Same as unions.

richs - corporations are created by congress???? Please explain.

Jody and john b - Corporations are made up by investers who can vote on the actions of the corporation. The corporate board (made up also by individuals) can instruct the CEO's to act in a given way.

John b. Yes the corporation has narrow needs: to provide a return to the investors for their support and to provide a product to the consumer that said consumers wants at a given price. To do otherwise will only cause the corporationb to fail or to be taken over by another entity. ergo corporations are also mortal.

>richs - corporations are created by congress???? Please explain.

A corporation is an arbitrary legal construct that is authorized and regulated by the government. The main reason to form one is to shield investors from responsibility for the actions of the corporation.

very good to a point, and that being that said corporations can be formed by state and local governments as well. another more clarifying point is that a corporation is:

an invisible, intangible, artificial creation of the law existing as a voluntary chartered association of individuals that has most of the rights and duties of natural persons but with perpetual existence and limited liability

I can now see how the supreme court came up with its desciion that corporations are people. My source? online dictionary stating the legal definition.

As for the rest of your post, rather tells me you would love to have a dictatorship. (ref post # 13.1)

a corporation is:

an invisible, intangible, artificial creation of the law existing as a voluntary chartered association of individuals that has most of the rights and duties of natural persons but with perpetual existence and limited liability

And who among us would not just love to have perpetual existance and limited liability? But don't say mean things about corporations just because you're jealous of their god-like qualities. You might hurt their feelings. Remember, corporations are people, too!

>I can now see how the supreme court came up with its desciion that corporations are people. My source? online dictionary stating the legal definition.

The definition does not contradict what I said. And since it is an artificial construct by law, it can and should be limited by law (see the word "most" in your definition). There is nothing in the constitution that says otherwise.

>As for the rest of your post, rather tells me you would love to have a dictatorship. (ref post # 13.1)

And your comment shows that you have the reading comprehension of a doorknob.

Corporations, partnerships, limited liability comnpaniies and the like are all "fictitious" persons, created by individual businessmen and women for the principle purpose of raising capital for use by the business by the sale of equity shares. They exist in America because the several states have enacted laws which recognize and regulate them.

They may cease to exist if the violate those state laws.

Corporations have served their purpose quite well, for the most part, and they have added much to the economic and social fabric of America. However, they are subject to misuse.

Corporations, being created by people and by laws are not endowed by their creators with inalienable rights. They do not enjoy the right to vote in elections for local, state, or national officials. Neither are they subject to arrest for crimminal violations of law, although they may be prosecuted, and they may not be imprisoned. They are absolutely amoral. And, given that their sole purpose is profit making, they cannot be socially responsible.

I do not believe corporations or any of those entities should be allowed to push elections one way or another - voting, if you will, with purchase money. The Supreme court has done America a very great disservice. I understand that corporations in the business of publishing information may serve as an extention of the rights of free speech of those who own or control or contribute to them, but the idea that their free speech rights (by extension) are not subject to regulation by Congress to the extent that ordinary Americans' rights are is absolute nonsense.

Also, since these business entities are essentially amoral, without conscience, and not socially responsible, I would advocate an absence of tolerance for socially destructive behavior. I believe that when, for example , they determine to package thousands and thousands of worthless mortgage loans as "derivatives" or other investment packages for sale to investors upstream, knowing they are without substance, America must blow the whistle before, not after, the fraud and the abuse gets out of hand and threatens the whole of society. And those individuals resoponsible should be punished. I believe the government needs to have the power to remove management teams in such circumstances.

Corporations serve a genuine socio-economic purpose. However, we have allowed the tail, as they say, to wag the dog too often and in too many socially destructive ways.

>The liberals not getting a majority in the Supreme Court

He should have killed one of them?

">The liberals not getting a majority in the Supreme Court"

You are saying partisan appointments should be the norm?

Road Warrior, no it isn't President Obama. It's propaganda and the rich white people -

Think Progress: Memo Detailing How Health Insurance, Banking, Oil Industries Met With Koch, Chamber, Glen Beck to Plot 2010 Election -

According to the memo, David Chavern, the number two at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Fox News hate-talker Glenn Beck also met with these representatives of the corporate elite. In an election season with the most undisclosed secret corporate giving since the Watergate-era, the memo sheds light on the symbiotic relationship between extremely profitable, multi-billion dollar corporations and much of the conservative infrastructure. The memo describes the prospective corporate donors as “investors,” and it makes clear that many of the Republican operatives managing shadowy, undisclosed fronts running attack ads against Democrats were involved in the Koch’s election-planning event-

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/10/20/beck-koch-chamber-meeting/

It's all about timing. If he had devoted 100% of his time on the economy from day one, he would have six more years to get all the pet programs he wants AND a liberal majority Supreme Court. He screwed up. By not having his priorities straight, he pissed off the crucial independent voters who got him and the Dem Congress elected.

drive-by-observer

The most partisan when it comes to SC appointments are the the Democrats. They always appoint ultra liberals whereas the Republicans had appointed the likes of John Paul Stevens and David Souter, two liberals.

Road Warrior. Please name a former President dealing with any recession, large or small, who devoted 100% of his time to fixing the economy. Every President has a myriad of problems to solve, it is not possible to stop the rest of the world and the US to focus on one single thing. To think otherwise is simply naive.

Jody, Iowa

I know liberals don't want to hear it, but Ronald Reagan inherited a pretty damn bad economy from Jimmy Carter. It takes about two years to reverse the bad economy and it takes effective policies. The first two years under Reagan was bad, but the proper policies were put in place on day one. By the time the third year came, 20 million new jobs were created, tax revenues doubled, and the Democrat Congress had a field day spending all that extra money. You may not concentrate 100% of the time on the economy, but you better have a good plan immediately because changes don't come overnight. From all indications, Obama's third year will be every bit as bad as the first two, with unemployment stagnating at 10%. No company I know are planning on hiring in 2011 because they just don't know what to do with so much uncertainty generated by this president.