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Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker's (R) new budget is drawing praise from some and criticism from others. The budget makes public workers, well, the public enemy. It goes after their collective-bargaining abilities and mandates that they ante up for their health care.
“The Wisconsin State AFL-CIO on Sunday launched a major advertising campaign against Gov. Scott Walker's plan that would erase almost all collective bargaining rights for most public workers as a way to shore up the state's finances,” the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel writes. “The television and radio ads say Walker and other politicians plan to "take away rights of thousands of nurses, teachers and other trusted public employees" and are doing so with almost no public discussion or debate.” More: “The Legislature could act this week on the bill, which would shore up the state's finances through June 30. A public hearing is expected on the bill Tuesday in the Legislature's budget committee. The bill would require the vast majority of state, local and school employees to pay half the costs of their pensions and pay at least 12.6% of their health care premiums.”
And then there’s this: “The bargaining law changes would apply to all public workers except police, firefighters and state troopers. The unions for state troopers, Milwaukee police officers and Milwaukee firefighters all endorsed Walker, while most other unions endorsed his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett.”
The union ad buy was largely in response to this Wisconsin Club for Growth ad in support of the governor's plan. The ad went up on Friday, shortly after Walker announced his plan. The conservative group is run by a former top Walker campaign adviser.
So could it pass the state legislature? While the Republicans have a commanding 57-38 majority (plus one Independent) in the Wisconsin house, they have a much narrower 19-14 majority in the state Senate. The Senate majority leader says he doesn't know when the chamber will take it up, effectively acknowledging he doesn't have the votes yet. Four Republicans were quoted in the Journal-Sentinel saying they weren't ready to commit to support the legislation and another four Republicans whose districts have lots of state workers wouldn't return phone calls.
The Journal-Sentinel’s editorial board largely backs Walker on his moves: “Walker is right to do this. He must insist that state workers pay a bigger share of their benefits. And he's right to take steps to compel them to do so. The governor is overreaching in some respects. And even if he wins the bruising fight to come in the state Capitol, he risks alienating broad swaths of independent voters. But Walker must fill a gaping budget hole of $137 million for the fiscal year that ends June 30 and a much larger imbalance in the next two-year budget. Something has to give.”
And AP had this: “Gov. Scott Walker says the Wisconsin National Guard is prepared to respond if there is any unrest among state employees in the wake of his announcement that he wants to take away nearly all collective bargaining rights. Walker said Friday that he hasn't called the Guard into action, but he has briefed them and other state agencies in preparation of any problems.”
The mention of the National Guard in Walker's Friday news conference was specifically in reference to state prisons. He said he would call out the Guard to take control of prisons if Corrections Officers went on strike or took any other sort of job action. Union officials say they don't have any plans to. One union official said the governor was "baiting" guards. Walker’s bill would maintain the workers' ability to negotiate over pay and only over pay -- it would strip them of their rights to negotiate any other benefits or work rules. Any raises couldn't exceed inflation, all contracts would be limited to one year and employees would be required to vote every year on whether to recertify the union as their bargaining agent.
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Unbelievable the Gov would call the National Guards out. Tea baggers are some scary people.
The great masses of the people will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.
Adolf Hitler quote
Who you gonna call? UNION BUSTERS!
I ain't faid of NO Club for Growth!
One more step towards the annihilation of the middle class...
All the time I was growing up, and in the working worls, I hated unions. Thought they were a bunch of extorionists. Then, the GOP showed me the error of my ways. Union people want a decent wage. The right wants ALL the marbles, and then some. If some union guy makes $25 an hour working his butt off, that's less money in the kitty for the CEO! For the CEO, makaing 260 times what some of his best worksers makes just doesn't seem right somehow.
And please don't start all that 'fair-share' garbage, righties- for I'm sure there are plenty of CEO's that think 260 times isn't fair, but that maybe 360 is.
What do the governors of Wisconsin and Maine have in common? Answer: They are both crazy Tea Party Republicans. And they are putting their states in jeopardy.
Hey Ron - we here in California do not have a "crazy Tea Party Repulican" governor. In your estimation, are we in jeopardy?
And gosh Drive By, that is a great point, but what's stopping the $25 union guy from seeking a job elsewhere - you you where he could earn a "fair" wage? I mean really why sould the worker work for some mean old greedy CEO? [I don't suppose you are a CEO, no are you Drive By?]
Did you all read the article? They said they would use the National Guard to replace workers at prisons if they did strike. I think many of the scary people are the ones in prison that the National Guard would protect the law abiding citizens from.
Most people already pay their fair share of their own pension right? It's called a 401K. Why can't the state government employees do the same? I know you guys don't know me but could you all gather up your money and send me $5,000 per month for me to retire on? I will also need another $750 to pay for my health insurance. I take paypal!
And the war on the Middle Class continues apace driven by the Power and Influence of the top 2%, now with the machinery of Government to do their dirty work.
No they didn't read the article. I'm shocked that they put that in there though.
That's funny Drive-by, I grew up Democrat from the burbs of Detroit and watched Union workers scam the system by paying a union worker punch in and out so they can drink at the bar. Chrysler workers getting caught on their lunch breaks smoking dope and drinking. But unlike you, I look at the person running for office. I don't look for the (D) or (R) after their name, unlike you do. I don't paint a person to a whole party.
How, exactly, is requiring pension and health insurance contributions from state workers decimating the middle class again? As it stands, the middle class (which is the vast majority of Wisconsinites- we aren't a wealthy people for the most part) has to make pension and health insurance contributions and then we have to pay one of the highest state income tax rates in the nation (we ranked 9th in '09, that was the most recent I found in a quick search but I promise you, rates haven't gone DOWN lately), a large chunk of which goes to pay the full load for state employees pensions and the lions share of their health insurance (a Cadillac plan, no less). Walker's proposal is asking no more from them than the private sector- less in many cases. And by doing so, he is eliminating furlough days that would otherwise be required of state employees to help close the budget gap. When everyone in the private sector has had to find a way to make due with less, there is no reason those working for the state shouldn't have to do the same
And for what it's worth, the last part of the article isn't entirely accurate- raises would be allowed to exceed inflation but they would be subject to a referendum vote by the citizens who pay the bill for the raises. Its about time those of us paying the bill have a seat at the bargaining table as far as I'm concerned.
Excluding the unions that supported him gives this a very bad smell!
Hey Big B-1989609
State employees in WI get contributions to their pension as PART OF THEIR COMPENSATION. This is not that hard to understand. Just like people may prefer a job with a somewhat lower salary that offers health insurance, some people also prefer a job with a somewhat lower salary that offers a pension. Lots of people used to get pensions, but then lots more people used to be in unions. Instead of trying to tear down people who have stood up and stood together and negotiated a fair salary and fair working conditions, why don't you man up and unionize and get decent job conditions for yourself?
Union Yes
I did, as you say, man up but instead of unionizing I got a graduate degree in business. I get to oversee several shops that are treated so well they haven't seen the need to unionize. My job conditions were getting terrible...my office chair had started to squeak and annoy me terribly. So I had to replace it before I called for a work stoppage.
I wasn't tearing down unions. They have just outlived their usefulness. Now they are a drain on the very people that enlisted their help and they are fraught with corruption and organized crime. Peace!
If this does not chill your soul, there is nothing that will. A Governor of a state, that is declaring war against citizens of that state. Is this what you want "teabaggers"? Someone who has very plainly stated that he plans to attack the rights of citizens to belong to Unions or to peacefully assemble? Did you NOT watch what happened in Egypt? The state workers are the ones who are often the First Responders in case of Emergencies. I can't tell you how often in our area I have watched both state and county workers perform miracles during flooding here, working night and day to secure that county. These are the folks that may be caring for your elderly, or disabled, teaching your children running your libraries. This attack on a group of citizens within a state should be deprecated by all those who truly consider themselves patriots. That Governor is an employee of the state, and therefore responsible to its citizens. ALL OF THEM including other state employees. Honestly, you would think that numbskull has no idea that state workers vote, and I imagine the voting next time will be to kick him out of office.
Good Morning newday
If this does not chill your soul, there is nothing that will. A Governor of a state, that is declaring war against citizens of that state.
I cetrainly hope the teabaggers see this Governor has dictator tendencies.
I wonder what the Romanovs would have thought of unions?
NDD:
True. As I have been writing this is the next logical progression of the GOP/TP people. They start at the Federal level to try and deny peoples rights and make DRACONIAN cuts, usually on the backs of the Middle Class and then move to the States. We have just seen this repugnant behavior with women's reproductive rights, gays rights and immigration rights.
It is all about wealth, power and total control of its citizens, PERIOD. They have no intentions of creating any new jobs or help an economy that is growing to continue to grow. The WSJ has a new report where leading economists are predicting the economy may grow at a rate (positive) that we have not seen since 2003.
Navy, I keep waiting to see if folks will finally have enough of the "get the Federal Govt" off my back fools as they move to tighten controls on people's private lives. And now we have a state Governor furthering that war. Dismal.
Did some one say the "Dark Ages" were behind us? It seems the more the TP/GNOP want less government - the more the government gets involved...
so FR liberals - The private sector already pays the wages and benefits of the public sector and you want us to sit by and watch it happen? I don't think so!
So the Republican agenda most important item is busting up the states employee unions. We heard from Newt, that he wants states to be able to declare bankruptcy so they can reduced their state pensions obligations. We have seen the comments on this site attacking unions, spotlighting the states employee unions. If the word "union"is associated with an organization, it must be a target. We should target the retirement and health care plans of senators and congressmen, both state and national. One term should not guarantee a pension and health care for life. We should demand that our state and national leaders take a pay cut of 10%.
Salt Grass:
All true. The big reasons behind letting States to declare bankruptcy was to limit or crush the Unions and to let States renign on their Pension obligations to the State Employees. Again all about power, wealth and control being placed in the hands of a select few.
And we should make them pay for their health and retirement benefits as well!
For the last two-years, we've listened to Obama and the Democrats demonize corporations, accuse doctors of padding their wallets by doing unnecessary procedures, and accuse any one of trying to make a buck with the own business as begin "greedy". Now when someone, Scott Walker asks that unions to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem, the Left goes totally bonkers.
No more free rides Lefties. You're going to pay too.
JO A S 1)
When your fearless leaders cut their pay, I will take them seriously about cutting spending.
Elections have consequences SG. Looks like the unions in Wisconsin are being asked to pay their "fair-share".
Wisconsin could show leadership by cutting the elected officials pay and benefits. It may be a small amount of the big picture, but how can some ask others to sacrifice while taking their full share of the pie? The republicans are saying I got mine and I am taken yours.
What have the wealthy in Wisconsin been asked to "give up" for the well being of the state? For that matter what contribution have the any of the wealthy in the entire nation made to the deficit reduction efforts? I can't think of any, it would seem they don't want to be part of the solution which makes them the problem.
Wisconsin legislators voted themselves a pay raise in January 2011. Are they about cutting the budget?
This is happening in every state. Maybe state workers should all take a day off and see what happens. State workers do alot in each and every state and are NOT all drunks and freeloaders.
"sonokursh2
Wisconsin legislators voted themselves a pay raise in January 2011. Are they about cutting the budget?
This is happening in every state. Maybe state workers should all take a day off and see what happens. State workers do alot in each and every state and are NOT all drunks and freeloaders."
==============================================================
That's exactly what they should do, the time has come.
Walker, as Milwaukee County Executive, actually did refuse nearly 50% of his salary for his first 6 years in office. Less during the last 2 but how many other politicians can say the same?
Salt Grass,
I've been hearing others talking about "health care" for life for Wisconsin legislators after a second term in office, but no one can give me the proof. I've been searching for a document of some type that proves they do indeed get this perk. Do you know where I might get some documentation? I'll certainly do my part to inform the public if this is true. Thanks!
Good Morning, Beverly! You have to wonder why this Gov. thinks going after his own citizenry is good public policy! DBO, interestingly enough, Nicholas 2 was pretty sure that the peasants loved him. He and Alexandra considered themselves "father and mother" to the peasants, and I don't think they ever caught up with the idea that the peasants did not share that view. May be equally true here.
Because the unions have been going after the citizenry for years with their benefits demands- we have one of the highest income tax rates in the nation. We have some of the highest property tax rates in the nation. That doesn't happen because the state employees unions are giving those who pay their salaries (the tax payers) a fair shake!
Union busting plain and simple. It's the GOP way.
“The bargaining law changes would apply to all public workers except police, firefighters and state troopers. The unions for state troopers, Milwaukee police officers and Milwaukee firefighters all endorsed Walker, while most other unions endorsed his Democratic opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett.”
So just to be clear, the three groups exempt from the change are the same three groups who endorsed the guy making the change. Pure coincidence, I'm sure.....
Yep, JoAnne, not too obvious!
Personally, I'd have preferred Walker include those three groups as well, but something tells me that ISN'T the direction the two of you were thinking in.
And why do I have the feeling, Suzy that you will be the first outraged when you need services from a state employee and they are no longer available? Quit demonizing your neighbors, what on earth is wrong with you?
Suzy -
Not necessarily. A case could be made that cops, state troopers, and firefighters deserve more consideration because they're a lot more likely to be risking their lives than the average state paper-pushing clerk. Or you could argue that everyone who gets a paycheck from the public should be subject to the same rules as anyone else. Either way, I'm not sure I was thinking in any direction other than that it comes off as just a little politically motivated to exempt only the members of those unions who endorsed him.
JoAnne, my apologies- I haven't read enough comments from you to give me a feel either way so I did make an assumption there and I shouldn't have. In fact I agree, to some extent, I can see justification for exempting public safety employees for exactly that reason- they truly risk life and limb to keep the rest of us safe where paper pushers do not.
New Day, however, I pegged to a T. It has nothing to do with demonizing my neighbors at all, it has everything to do with asking my neighbors to understand that when those who fund the paychecks are struggling, there are sacrifices we all have to make. Why do you think that the private sector should take a double hit (paying their own benefits as well as paying high taxes to keep the public sector in business) while the public sector continues to feel no ill effect of the current economy?
What makes you think that state employees are not struggling in the current economy or the states woes should be balanced by them paying the lion's share? When are you and your ilk going to get through your heads that those who have money have an obligation to pony up too? State employees are generally not well paid, they trade pay for benefits, and they are the first to be attacked when mental midgets like Walker take over the state. I can't wait til you begin to understand the benefits you RECEIVE from the state employees, and I'll say it again: you will be the first to scream when you want a state employee for some reason and they are not available. Now, I'll say this again: quit demonizing your neighbors. They don't appreciate it, and you are dealing in stereotypes. But I have read enough of YOUR posts to know that is all you bring to the table.
I expect everyone is struggling. Which is why I wonder what your solution to the budget gap is. We already have one of the highest tax rates in the nation and we still have a budget gap on par with California (I believe it's actually higher on a per-capita basis). Raise it more and you risk more people leaving for states with a lower tax burden. Jobs have left the state in droves because of the unfavorable business climate under our last administration. Private sector unions have made much deeper concessions in order to keep jobs here (Harley Davidson, Mercury Marine and Kohler Company among others). Something has to give. So what do you suggest?
Your comparison of Wisconsin's budget gap to CA demonstrates a dearth of knowledge. The reason CA is in trouble is the Jarvis Prop that limited property taxes. CA has never recovered from that, and add to it, the process of referral there is way YONDER too easy, giving special interest their sway. In other words, CA's problems were caused by right wing Republican nuts. You cannot balance the needs of your state on one group, and you are about to find that out. For your governor to threaten to use the National Guard against a one group of citizens should be an anathema to anyone with an IQ over 70. It is not his private army, and not his to use to push a war against people he doesn't like. You also cannot just cut spending, it could be and I realize this is heresy, that sometimes the rich folk have to pay their fair share, which they currently are not paying. To say anything else is dishonest. But, since you bring up CA (and I am a native CA) let me tell you this: you want to race to the bottom, ask Californians how they feel about their ability to get state services, including fire and police. And quit furthering the war against state employees. You have NO clue what you are talking about.
Seriously? You have no ability to read what is written, do you? Governor Walker alerted the National Guard as a precautionary step to his announcement- if prison guards decide to strike, he's announced his intention to call on the Guard to maintain order in our prison system. It is not war on our state's citizens, it is keeping order.
As for the California "comparison" it was a statement of budget gap. Not what caused it, not declaring my desire to join them in a race to the bottom, a measure of monetary fact ONLY. I don't really care what caused the shortfall, the fact is there is a significant budget gap and it must be addressed. Our tax climate has driven folks out of the state for years- people can't afford to retire here even if they've lived here their entire lives- property taxes are among the highest nationally so even if you own your house outright, the taxes make it impossible for many to stay when on a fixed income. Our income taxes are also among the highest- people come here to get an education but they leave the state on graduating because they can live cheaper elsewhere. Businesses are leaving because they can't make a profit in the current economy while meeting those obligations to the state. You seem to think taxes are the answer and refuse to listen to anything else- I am telling you outright, taxes are more the CAUSE than the solution. You can't raise revenue with an ever shrinking tax base. And you can't continue to spend at unsustainable levels on the blind hope that you will find enough rich people to tax to support them. California has to have one of the largest concentrations of wealth in the country and THEY can't find enough "rich" folks to close the budget gap, how do you think middle class states in fly over country are going to do so? Its time to level the playing field for the public and private sectors so that we can ALL continue to afford to live here.
Suzy: you suffer from the same thing that all "teabaggers" suffer from. Simplistic thinking, everything is black and white. Yes. You are engaged to a race to the bottom, and your state will join CA there if you continue on with this. Wisconsin is beautiful, my collie comes from a top kennel there. I hate to see WI do this. So let me see if I can make this black and white for you so you can take it in: Quoting Walker; from Wisconsin Gov Walker to Deploy Guard as "Intimidation Force" against workers. Thinkprogress 2/14/11: "when asked by a reporter what will happen if workers resist, Walker replied that he would call out the National Guard. He said the National Guard is fully prepared for whatever the Gov, their commander in chief, might call for. I am prepared for whatever might happen." See, Suzy, there it is from the horse's mouth, (or rear end) He did not put limits on this, he is threatening state workers. VoteVet released a statement that says that Walker shouldn't use the Guard as an "intimidation force". They don't see it as just using the Guard to replace striking prison workers. Suzy, if you think this is about pay, you are a fool. This is union busting pure and simple. And this is why unions are necessary. Your statement about CA having one of the largest collection of rich folks may cause me to laugh the rest of the day. You know why they don't help? Because right wing nuts have pretty much kept them from paying their fair share of the tax burden. CA is a lesson for this nation, but you folks are too thick to get it. You want the nation to be CA? You are well on the way. Quit talking about things you have no knowledge of. You look foolish.
Shades of the late 1800s/early 1900s when Governors called out the National Guard to quell protests for fair wages and working conditions. How many people were killed by both the National Guard and private armies hired by companies to 'quell protests'?
Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.
The National Guard was put on alert to replace the prison guards in the event they decided to strike. Seems logical to me- worse idea to leave the prisoners to their own devices, don't you think?
Yes, Suzy, that would be a good idea but, according to the blog post, that is not what was first said. That was one of those 'clarifications' and I have no doubt that any protests by anyone against these changes will cause the Governor to call out the National Guard. I do not have specific knowledge that he will do that but from the attitude of these Republican/TP Inc. politicians, it would not surprise me.
Why is it that all you left wingers (democrats) think the federal and state governments are the answer to everything? Most of you are no doubt receiving some kind of government hand out or a government job. Government is not the answer but the problem. Remember it was President John Kennedy that made the famous remark "Ask not what your government can do for you, ask what you can do for your government? States have to cut somewhere and since employee unions have been riding the gravy train maybe they sure stand up and take some of the responsibility for the troubles. I don't see any cuts or solutions from those on the left, except their favorite one "raise taxes on the rich".
Why do we need governors at all, then? What is Gov. Walker doing about his own salary ($144,000 plus)? Employee unions do not ride a gravy train -- they were started in an effort to balance the fact that owners and management took all the profits and completely disregarded the people working for them. Every time there is collective bargaining, each side comes with proposals and a deal is hammered out. All the union contracts are agreed to by management. Now, in the case of public employees in Wisconsin, the governor is deciding that pensions won't be part of negotiations. So the union members will demand more money up-front. Most "public servants" are paid less than private sector counterparts, but the health insurance, pensions, etc., compensate for lesser salary up-front.
What makes you think that liberals are all working for the government or taking some kind of hand out?
Let's see, you once told us that your ID meant Sargent First Class, Retired. So, if that is truly what you are, that means you had a government job and now receive a government handout in the form of a retirement check.
Hmm, government job . . . hmm, government handout . . . hmm . . . I'll bet you even get government paid health care from the VA! Pot, meet kettle.
ROTFLMAO!! You guys are just way too easy.
Way to slander the name of JFK, sfcret. The quote is "Ask not what your COUNTRY can do for you, ask what you can do for your COUNTRY."
Read the speech in its entirety. It made one of the best cases in modern history that we are not islands, we do not stand alone, but instead are interdependent beings with an obligation to support the society that makes our good fortune possible.
But let's just say the President DID say it as you misquoted. You're saying that we have a RESPONSIBILITY to support the government as they seek to provide essential services to us and our fellow citizens.
Even when twisted into a barely recognizable distortion of the original words it still doesn't say what you claim.
It"s time to pull an EGYPT on the Wisconsin govenor. He refuses money to put his citizens to work and now he has decided that Wisconsin needs a dictator. What next, secret police?
Headline:
Last month MTA bus driver Tim Carpenter was filmed driving the bus with girlfriend in lap. Anyone with half a brain knows the guy should be fired. The DOT union boss made excuses for the guy (on TV). One could only dream of what the union boss would have said if his wife or daughter was on that bus. He got a 30 day suspension - don't know the outcome at this point. What a joke.
I'm an engineer and have never been in a union (private companies). I did however work for the Fed. Gov't for a few years (I was not in the union - I can't think of why I would be) and all I saw of the union is this:
=== protecting deadbeats and losers. It is impossible to fire anyone. Lots of good, smart and hard working employees but there is a population of employees that do nothing and get away with it. They don't even try to hide the fact that they do nothing. It's a disgrace.
We can all spin this however we like but the fact is public unions do everything they can to look bad, and they are very good at this too.
While we were worrying that Mubarak would use the army to quell the Egyptian revolution, the gov of WI was threatening to do that very thing. Reagan started to kill unions because his big business backers (who was it that bought the house for him and Nan after 8 years of delivering for them?) thought it would be good for business. Eisenhower said it--the right of workers to unionize should not be taken away. There was a real Republican!
University staff and professors are talking about leaving the state of Wisconsin.
Sorry students, get ready to be crammed into classrooms and lose the best and brightest. Only a fool comes to Wisconsin today.
On top of this, several businesses considered moving to Wisconsin, but took one look at the roads Walker maintained in Milwaukee County and quickly decided it would cost them far too much to transport products to market.
Walker won in a huge landslide just a few months ago. The fire, troopers and police unions have already made huge concessions. Time for the rest of the state unions to step and be responsible.
yea, let's go Egypt on Walker, turn the state over to the military, dissolve all government and prohibit women and jews from participating in the government. Sure, that will work.
The big difference here is that the majority of the state taxpayers have been demanding this for so long. Walker has huge support in the state, contrary to what we hear in the media.
I wonder, Wisconsin taxpayer, if you will feel that way when the services in the state deteriorate (think CA) and people start to leave? One of the things that businesses look at to relocate is quality of living.
Wisconsin Taxpayer --
How much tax are you paying? State workers pay state taxes as well. Many may pay much more than you do. We all make contributions to the state budget. We receive salary and wages for our labor. You think public employees getting it so easy, why don't you apply for a job -- such as a university professor? What is that? Not qualified because you don't have a Ph.D. degree? That is just too bad. So tell your college students to enroll a out of state college or a private college. See how much more tuition you have to pay.
Or maybe you don't think education is not important. I think at least Scott, the dropout, Walker apparent doesn't think so.
Sounds like a good dose of "Egypt"is exactly what Mr. Walker needs, seems he has declared himself dictator of Wisconsin, by the way what kind of hardships have the wealthy of Wisconsin been asked to endure?
Walker did not win by a landslide.
What's not mentioned in this article is that the Wisconsin state worker's have no issues with the concessions for health care and pension increases, it's the removal of the union's right to negotiate that we're taking issue with. He could easily get those if he would just sit down with the union but he is unwilling to do that. We do not have any plans for striking or slowdowns but his paranoia is full blown. We've been told that if we call in sick, we can be fired. He's been telling the legislature to not meet with their constituents. The newest article is that he wants the power to reshape all the state health care programs. Who's going to want to work here now, we already have openings that aren't being filled because qualified candidates don't want to take the pay cut.
Walker's support from constituents for cutting back the budget is different than support for this particular bill. Believe it or not, the people gathered at the rally in Madison, WI today were not asking to be exempt from financial cut-backs. Some were, of course, but most were concerned about the union busting added to the bill. Although I frequently disagree with the way unions lobby and handle things, it is a serious problem to limit collective bargaining to "base rate pay." Valuable concessions have been wrung from collective bargaining sessions, and under Walker's bill, no one could work to protect these in the future. This includes things like the elimination of mandatory overtime that nurses used to have to work when some one didn't show up for a shift. (Nurses working for 16 hrs straight is not safe or equitable.) Walker's heavy handed tactics at budget chopping do more than eliminate expenses - they tear down many of the just decisions our state has made in the past. I'd say the old adage "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" applies well here. Wisconsin politicians must not get so caught up in finding a budgetary solution that they forget to defend justice in their decisions as well.
Walker did NOT win in a landslide. He garnered just around 53% of the popular vote, and that's with only 37% of those ages 25-40 voting.
He has ticked off the voters who stayed home last time. They will not make that mistake again.
This business of pitting one group of people against the other just sends shivers up my back.
I'll give the governor this: in the past, during times of economic crisis, the politicians of the day would pick their scapegoats based on race or religion. Now, at least, it's on the basis of employment, so I guess we've made at least some progress.
However, my mother-in-law worked for over forty years at the DMV. She retired recently with what I would call a very modest pension. Maybe $30,000 a year. Not exactly living the high life, I'd say. Sure, I'm guessing some abuse can be found. But honestly, demonizing her and her co-workers seems pathetic at best.
Really? $30k per year is a modest pension? This is not about "demonizing", targeting or attacking any group, union, public employee, or otherwise.
The budget needs to be brought into order before we wind up like our neighbors to the south (IL) where income taxes were just raised 66% by their democratic Governor.
This is what the majority of people in Wisconsin want - fiscal responsibility, nor insolvency. Hence the outcome of the last election.
Yes, 30K after 40 years work is a modest pension. Next question?
The reason Illinois raised taxes is because their taxes have been far under their expenditures for a long time. Scott Walker ought to tackle the task the hard way and adjust spending by eliminating waste. Instead he chooses to take the easy route and take it out of the hides of the individuals who work in the public sector. The appropriate thing to do would be to propose his adjustments on a year by year basis until enough waste has been identified to deal with the budget issues. These draconian union busting tactics are not necessary, for all they do is to create dissension and make coming up with a true solution impossible. A true solution can only be developed when all indivudals of the state are part of the process. But than again Scott Walker is a not a problem solver he is a grandstander and has always been so his entire political life.
Do you know what the size of the pension the average American worker retires with? $0. We have to scape all our retirement funds together and then we have to pay for the state workers' retirements too! It's ridiculous.
Apples I know that and I think that is a sad commentary on the working life of those individuals who make a living by working for a wage or salary in the United States. That however is one of the very reasons to be concenered about this attack for this proposal is an attack on the dignity of all individulas who make their living by working for a wage or salary. There will be more taken away if this mentallity is allowed to progress.
What would be taken away WI taxpayer? The private sector already lost pensions. Regardless of whether the public sector keeps their pensions or not, the majority of Americans aren't getting those benefits back, and it makes sense why we lost them. There aren't enough workers to pay for the retirees at a company when retirees are living longer and longer- god bless um.
What this is about is, the attack on UNIONS. Governor Scott walker is trying to dismantle all unions in the State Of Wisconisin. This is the Republican party's platform, "no more unions". This will eliminate any middle class, which I consider a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY!!!!!!! People need to wake up and realize, even though you may not belong to a union, the union's created the 40 hour work week for all citizens of this country and the end of slave labor. If this bill passes every state in this country will become a "RIGHT TO WORK STATE".
Krell,
How can you use a single example to demonize a whole group? This is the same trick racists are using to deny the rights to the minority and the weak.
Union exists for a good reason -- that is to fight for the protection of the workers. It is a counter balance towards the capitalists who have all the powers.
In absence of union and other labor groups, you and other works may not have the 8 hour work day, the retirement funds, health care, paid vacations, safe working environment.
Just because you are not in a union, (I had never been in union either), it doesn't mean that you are not enjoying the benefits of the union movement over the past century.
You think the nice benefit package you receive from a private company coming out of vacuum? These companies are forced to offer you nice compensation to stay competitive with unionized companies.
Employers would much rather to pay the least amount possible. That is supply and demand. You are not paid by your contribution or net wealth. You are paid by the minimal to sustain your employment or you can move to else where.
If public employees' benefits are lowered, you think the private workers will do better? The employers at private sectors will tell you and your coworkers, pointing to the reduction in public employees, to take another cut.
We are in the same boat, Public or private section workers. They first come to the public section employees because they are easy targets. Tomorrow, they will come after you and there is no one else to help you then.
Typecheck:
I didn't think I was demonizing a group... I see examples (as do you) - over and over again with no results except protecting a worker that in any other company would "go". Plain and simple.
When I joined the Fed, a union rep came up to get me to join. I was shocked... I said why? If I can't resolve any issues with my supervisor, I don't want to work here. Her mouthed dropped open and she walked away (I was very polite about it).
You said this:
If public employees' benefits are lowered, you think the private workers will do better?
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If your logic is correct, and if the numbers ($$) are correct that public workers are paid a lot more than private, I should get a better benefit package.
Our mfg. base is gone. I think you will find (if polled) that engineers and IT folks could care less about a union and having someone represent them when the guy in the next cube or office does absolutely nothing and gets paid the same or more with no consequences.
Anyway, having the work environment competitive results in a better product and work ethic.
"Anyway, having the work environment competitive results in a better product and work ethic."
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What effect does screwing your employee's out of what they rightly have coming have on that "work ethics" thingy?
w bush,
You say this:
What effect does screwing your employee's out of what they rightly have coming have on that "work ethics" thingy?
Answer -
I don't know as this has to my knowledge not happened at the companies I have worked for. If this is a US epedemic, I haven't heard about it. Can you be specific and say where this is happening and how common it is?
Krell
w bush,
You say this:
What effect does screwing your employee's out of what they rightly have coming have on that "work ethics" thingy?
Answer -
I don't know as this has to my knowledge not happened at the companies I have worked for. If this is a US epedemic, I haven't heard about it. Can you be specific and say where this is happening and how common it is?
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You and I both know it's an epidemic, the new norm, whatever the term of the day is Krell, the working man in this country is taking an un-just beating both in wages and benefits, what hardships are the wealthy experiencing Krell?
w bush
I'm not wealthy so I can't relate and I admit that I don't follow wages over time. We all think we should earn more. As for me being screwed out of what is rightly mine... that makes me laugh.
I'm unemployed (again, I'm an electrical engineer) so now, after 6 months I have an official job offer that I agreed to and signed (haven't started yet). The economy is in the toilet, so employers have the upper hand - I do believe that in a better economy I would have been able to get more $$.
Anyway, I am one of the "working man" you talk about. If what you say its true, then all of us are getting hit. So why do we need unions?
After reading your post again, not sure why you mention the wealthy.
If you think its me and that I'm being dense, then so be it.
Well Krell. If you worked for the public sector as a union employee you would probably still have a job. The only way to lose a public sector union job is to drop dead. Even murderers are probably immediately rehired after doing their time (see the story about that U Penn professor who killed his wife...).
Apples:
You may be right, however, the fact that the guy next to me is doing nothing and getting paid a lot is sometimes too much to take. I went and got a degree so I could do something... not sit around and do nothing and take a check and dare anyone to fire me.
I quit the gov't for another opportunity. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.
As for dropping dead to lose a job... that's the point -- pay someone a Grade 12 Step 10 (about $100K) and have them set up conference rooms, buy staples, answer phones, etc and have some (not all - most people aren't like this) balk at doing the work. Not bad for $100K/year. I don't make that much and I do all the technical work.
I was not praising public sector jobs. ;). There should be accountability, not a life-long job while slacking.
Cutting peoples wages and benefits when fuel, food, electricity, insurance, almost everything that is required to survive is increasing is a sure recipe for disaster on many levels, the American people will say enough to the injustice sooner or later, looks like it could be sooner. What makes Walker think he has the right to pick and choose what groups can and can not use collective bargaining? Democracy in this country is a hoax, the next few years are going to be ugly indeed.
And the alternative is to raise taxes on those who are already struggling to make ends meet because fuel, food, electricity, insurance and almost everything that is required to survive is increasing because we can't continue to support the government work force and pay to keep the rest of the state running with current revenues. And lets add in the oh so fun wild card of the private sector living under the constant threat of downsizing which has rarely been an issue for the public sector.
I do think that unions as a whole have outlived their necessity but the bigger issue is this- the private sector employers who have collective bargaining agreements with their workforce have profits on which to base their agreements- if the company can't support itself, they are forced to close the doors. The public sector unions are not playing on the same field. There is no profit, only taxpayer dollars, to pay the workforce with. The people paying the salaries and benefits packages are largely kept out of the process.
Why the heck do public sector employees have unions anyway? Do you honestly believe that we the people (i.e. your boss) intend to screw you? If that's what you think, then what kind of person are you?
"Apples
Why the heck do public sector employees have unions anyway? Do you honestly believe that we the people (i.e. your boss) intend to screw you? If that's what you think, then what kind of person are you?"
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A person that lives in the "real" world. Your statement is so disingenuous it makes me sick.
W bush, do you refute the fact that the CEO of public employees is "We The People?" If not, then why do you need a union to protect yourself from your fellow citizens who are paying for the salaries, pensions, and other benefits. Instead of name-calling, why not address the question?
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The governor hood wink the people of Wisconsin to vote for him on the TRAIN issue . They should have look closer to his real objective to be King . At least have the curtsy to sit down and discuss the matter , but NO the King doesn't its his way or the National Guards way . This state was built on fair bargaining for hard working labor force . State jobs were a plus to have ,you had to pass a series of test and work your way up the pay scale . The King could have sat down and work out a deal of paying a little more in health care and take a wage freeze along with his salary . But the King can't have total control with a union in his way . If the King applied for a state job where you need a college degree he couldn't qualify .
Krell:
Last year I worked at a small company manufacturing and programming weather sensory equipment. At the end of November last year they just stopped paying us. We were given various excuses ... someone else had to pay them before they could pay us... blah blah blah.
I left with them owning me a substantial amount of money. My friends who haven't are waiting to be paid. What can we do? If we belonged to a union, we'd have a lot more ability to get our back pay. Otherwise, we can either a.) sue them in court. Good luck, since we can't afford the lawyers they can. Or b.) Go to a government agency, which if we're lucky, is not staffed by some political hack.
My point is, I see what you are saying about the unions, but gosh I sure wish I belonged to one. And making everyone a peon at the mercy of the employer is not going to make our economic problems go away.
Why was the post from the Corrections Officer deleted?
plutocracy
Newday...
I didn't know a post could be deleted.
WGW-1
Look, I feel bad about your situation - I really do. This has never happened to me nor do I know anyone else in your shoes. Thats not to minimize your situation and I have no idea how common it is for a company to just stop paying employees.
In my first post I said how unions make themselves look bad - and they do. Why in the world would anyone go on TV and try to justify a bus driver driving a bus with a girl in his lap. It's this kind of stupidity that I see over time - and we see this sort of thing much more than a company that stops paying its employees.
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Except this article is about state employees. You know who their employer is? You are. While you're out there fighting for your lost wages, they are sitting their asses in cushy chairs with fat pensions and free health insurance. While you're squirreling away some pennies in your 401k, they are using YOUR money to pay for their pensions. You're essentially paying for the retirement of you and all the state employees together. Worse, while you're paying $1000+ a month to keep your family insured, they pay peanuts for the same privilege. Tell me again how the state employee unions are helping you, the employer, again?
The greatest insult here is that the union is unwilling to appreciate the situation and compromise. He is taking away employees voices! He is replacing structure with powerless uncertainty. Everyone has to take a hit - except those big corporations he just gave major tax breaks too. Unions are willing to take their share of the pain. The problem is the gov't's refusal to negotiate.
That's how the righties roll... they can't handle the TRUTH!
plutocracy
Hey stupid the people didn't collapse his post it was deleted by the moderator
To have that happen, it either had to be reported as advertising or been flagged 5 times. That post provided important information about what is happening to state employees. It should be read.
That was my point openmind, why did the moderator delete it?
About that post that was deleted from the Corrections Officer... I replied to him on that post and my post is gone. I guess the entire segment was removed. Maybe because he (Marty) asked for support.
I think you are probably right, Krell. But it is a shame. It should be read. I don't think asking for support in this instance is over the line, but I don't run this blog. The rest of the information was important, and maybe the correction officer will come back and just repost the story of WI.
The wealthy in this country have came to the conclusion that they don't want to be inconvenienced with helping reduce the deficit, they would rather the less fortunate take care of it, we will see how that works out for them.
What Governor Walker is doing should come as no surprise. According to an article written last June by a Milwaukee news source,
I suppose this is going to be paid for with Monopoly money? Or how about this...we'll just wait until our children and grandchildren come to terms with the reality that they cannot afford to support the current system.
The private sector did away with pensions long ago...they were replaced with 401(k) plans. Health insurance....we pay roughly 75% of the cost - there are also those employed in the private sector who pay 100% of their premiums.
A budget deficit means the state is insolvent - broke! That is the real problem. We simply have nothing more to give.
Those pension funds are supposed to be there, why aren't they? Need to find the responsible parties and throw their a$$es in jail.
Again, we live in a society with services provided by public servants. You can choose not to pay the public servants and ending up not receiving the services.
Asking public employees to reduce their income in order balance the budget is like cutting off your electricity or gas in order to make your house payment. It is not the right solution.
Public services are not luxury that you can just say go away when time is tough.
Private section doesn't have pensions but employers do match your 401K contributions and you can choose to contribute more to the max extend matched by your employers or not to contribute anything. We don't have such an option in pension systems. Besides, public employees' salary is quite low compared to what private section employees.
I haven't got a single dim of bonus ever working for the state. You would cry foul if that happens to you in industry. We don't have any raise higher than inflation and actually salary was lowered the past two years.
Don't you know that private university pays more to professors than public schools? That is a fact. I don't know how other occupation fairs but in general, public schools don't have the greatest pay.
So stop blaming public employees for the state budget problems. There is no fat cats here. We don't get raises when economy is good, and we shouldn't pay the costs when economy goes bad either.
Most states allow state employees to contribute to their pension funds to increase the $$ upon retirement, so not only do you guys get the benefit of a fully paid pension, but you have the same benefit as 401k benefited employees. Many private employers don't even offer 401ks, or they don't match, or they match at something like 25-50%. So you have it better in that sense by far.
Most private employers require employees to pay a percentage 50-75-100% of health insurance costs. You get free health insurance paid for by... private employees! So while us schulps are paying for our retirement and 12k a year for health insurance, we are soooo lucky to be able to pay for state employee retirements and health insurance too!
There are plenty of private sector employees who receive neither raises or bonuses either. And the ones who do receive either, or, often are so small as to be unnoticeable.
The problem is walker is planning on flat out destroying the unions by removing the abilty to bargain, not allowing the employees to pay dues out of their paychecks. and needing the union to recertify every year. Walker isn't just making cuts if it was just cuts it would not be a big deal. the bill he is trying to pass is making the purpose of having a union pointless.
Also, if costs are such a big deal why not lead by example, why doesn't walker take the average pay from a non college educated state employee along with that, the benefits. After all, he is a state employee. Maybe even hold an election every year to see if he can keep his job.
Apples,
I am talking about WI pension for public employees. Not other states. There is no matching funds. The pension we got is tiny as well. In the past, governors have persuaded public employees not to have raises but to have better benefits instead. When people go work for a job in public sector, you don't hear them boasting great salary. You often hear great benefits instead. Now people are saying why public employees got the great benefits. How come you don't say why you got paid so little. We are having furlough days the past two years and in the next few years as well. Pays have already been cut. Now the benefits are gone as well.
If I can choose to opt out of the pension, I probably would. It is better to keep my house now than worry about my retirement later. I can always move to another country for lower costs of living when I am old.
Private sector employees have also had furlough days. We are in a recession. Most private sector employers don't match 401k contributions any more, and that is for the employers who even offer the option to contribute to a 401k. Some of us are stuck with IRAs which are after tax.
Pay isn't that good in the private sector either. Read a newspaper. People are being forced to take pay cuts, less hours, fewer benefits, etc. Why should we allow public employees to unionize and leech from their employer... us!
Apple proclaims; "private sector employees have also had furlough days. We are in a recession. Most private sector employers don't match 401k contributions any more, and that is for the employers who even offer the option to contribute to a 401k. Some of us are stuck with IRAs which are after tax.
Pay isn't that good in the private sector either. Read a newspaper. People are being forced to take pay cuts, less hours, fewer benefits, etc. Why should we allow public employees to unionize and leech from their employer... us!"
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Apple that is probably one of the strongest statements ever made for why the private sector should pursue collective bargaining.
This is not an argument for unions in the private sector. I'd like to know why public sector employers feel the need to be protected from their fellow man. This isn't some nebulous CEO making 140002x the amount of the lowest employee. This is your fellow taxpayers. Do you really need to unionize against us during a budget crisis?
The Wisconsin Retirment System is one of the most well funded retirment systems in the country. This is beacuse in Wisconsin funding the promised pensions was always a part of the process and as such the promised pensions are more modest than in many other states. The reason Illinois is in such a sad state is that the moon was promised but funding for those promises was never made a part of the committment.
His anti union stance runs out of steam when the police, firefighters, and state trooper unions are exempted from his policies, gee if only the other unions had endorsed the correct candidate.