Feisty:

Now it is time for the rubber to meet the road. Let us all see where the GOP/TP really sits on Immigration. I just love it when a plan comes together. The other day President Obama is talking about this, and wham, here it is.

I want to see how those ones that vote no justify there position this time around to the American people.

Go President Obama - the man for 2012

Well alright - and I was thinking the Senate wouldn't do anything to address the jobs/economy.

Well Played Senate Dems, way to stay "laser-focused" on the important stuff.

And yes Navy, Wham, Bam, down to defeat. So Navy how many Dems will vote against it?

This should be very entertaining.

Well good for Harry Reid, the Senate and the Democrats.

Maybe someday the Senate will come up with a FY2012 budget? How's that "Gang of Six" doing at cooking something up?

Harry does know he's supposed to come up with a budget, doesn't he? He did take last year off from doing so, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't try this year too.

As a progressive Democrat, I DO NOT SUPPORT AMNESTY, WHICH ONLY INCENTIVIZES FURTHER LAWBREAKING EN MASSE (the 1986 Amnesty being Exhibit A of this manifest reality!) Below is a report issued from LA County, showing the DEVASTATING COSTS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IN JUST ONE COUNTY IN AMERICA!

WELFARE COSTS FOR THE CHILDREN OF ILLEGAL ALIENS REACHES $53 MILLION

January 19, 2011 -- Supervisor Michael D. Antonovich released figures from the Department of Public Social Services showing that in November 2010, $53 million in welfare benefits ($22 million CalWORKs + $31 million in Food Stamps) were issued to parents who reside in the United States illegally and collect benefits for their native-born children in Los Angeles County -- representing an increase of nearly 3 million from November 2009. This amounts to approximately 22% of all CalWORKs and Food Stamp issuances in the County.

In 2009, CalWORKs and Food Stamp issuances to illegals totaled nearly $570 million. Based on the monthly figures in 2010, the total cost for the year will exceed $600 million.

“When you add this to $550 million for public safety and nearly $500 million for healthcare, the total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers exceeds $1.6 billion dollars a year – not including the hundreds of millions of dollars for education,” said Antonovich.

Navy, I totally disagree. I have already identified several illegal aliens that have been sent back to their homeland. If all citizens of the United States took this issue seriously, we would be able to eliminate all illegal aliens by incentivizing tax paying citizens by providing them with a tax credit by showing proof of turning in an illegal alien. It makes good economic sense for our country and restores sovereignty to many areas of the United States that are over ridden with illegals. There, I said it.

Nice Navy - I don't support amnesty or illegal immigration so naturally I'm a bigot.

So tired, so old, and just plain stupid Navy. Wanting to enforce the laws - deporting the law breakers is hardly bigoted. Worst part is you know it, but have no legitimate argument so throw out stupid crap like that. You can do so much better Navy, you should at least try.

Tell us - since you do advocate supporting illegals what does that make you? We are a nation of laws? I suspect you follow the law.

The rubber hit the road on this many times - you are on the losing end, you know the end that is against the law.

JoAnnaSmith1

Maybe someday the Senate will come up with a FY2012 budget?

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Stop saying sensible crap like that. I hate agreeing with you.

Funny how the Democrats can get organized to help the illegal immigrants, but can't muster a jobs bill to help unemployed American citizens. I thought we didn't have money for all these social and educational programs. How will the Dream Act decrease unemployment and boost the economy? Where is the Dream Act for American citizens whose children are facing drastic cuts in educational financial aid and who are now graduating from college to compete for jobs at McDonalds?

And there it is - Feisty trots out the Nazi comment.

Feisty always the opposite of winning.

Great job old gal. Thank you for again highlighting how weak and flawed your side, and particularly you, is/are.

Navy---

It is incredible that you characterize those who want our laws enforced as "bigots". Your perpsective is MIND-NUMBING, DISHONEST, AND OFFENSIVE.

It is not we who are demanding that the law be enforced against all who broke it who are the bigots! THE BIGOTS ARE THOSE DEMANDING SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR PEOPLE WHO SELFISHLY DECIDED TO VIOLATE U.S. LAW WITH IMPUNITY (and this includes the U.S. businesses profiteers who seek to profit from ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS and devastate the wages of American citizens and LEGAL immigrants).

Ira: Stop saying sensible crap like that. I hate agreeing with you.

Harry also is spending his precious time supporting Obama's National Labor Relations Board in supporting them on their decision to not have Boeing move their manufacturing plant to South Carolina.

Liberals, please explain how the Democrats prevention of Boeing's move to South Carolina improves the job situation for the country.

Source: http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/160473-reid-defends-nlrb-over-boeing-decision-

Come on Navy - big a big boy and say you are sorry.

THE BIGOTS ARE THOSE DEMANDING SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR PEOPLE WHO SELFISHLY DECIDED TO VIOLATE U.S. LAW WITH IMPUNITY

How exactly are the children who were brought here violating US law with impunity?

Are you saying the children are responsible for the sins of their parents?

Nazi's, fascists, and bigots, oh my!!

The Libs are in fine form today.

"Instead of kicking out of our country people who are educated, want to become educated, be productive members of our society, we should let them work," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said .

"....but, they are not millionaires, so screw 'em", replied Boehner and McConnell.

"Are you saying the children are responsible for the sins of their parents?"

They are saying anything they think sounds cute.

Over and Over and Over Again (sorry, Dave Clark 5).

So is it that bad for the Democrats that they need to ignore the illegal immigration laws on the books just to get a few more votes by pandering to the illegals for amnesty? And for a political party like the Democrats that are oh so very concerned about the middle class, does it matter to those Democrats that these illegals are taking the very jobs the legal middle class citizens of this country used to have?

And is there any particular reason the Democrats are now oh so concerned about the children of illegals, when they are the same ones loading the children of the legal citzens of today, and the taxpayers of tomorrow, with tons of debt?

"Are you saying the children are responsible for the sins of their parents?"

No we're saying the parents are responsible for their children. Mind blowing concept.

Jeff you can't be serious....what you're advocating has shades of Nazi Germany where citizens were "incentivized to turn in Jews and those against the Reich. Really....you want this country to sink to those levels?

No Feisty--- I am saying that the law must be enforced against ALL WHO BROKE IT! I think Americans could get behind legislation for those under age 16 who had no choice in coming here if two conditions would be met: (1) if our government WOULD ENFORCE THE LAW AGAINST THE ACTUAL LAWBREAKING DECISION-MAKERS in exchange for amnesty for the children, and (2) we could be assurred that there would be sufficient government checks so that there wouldn't be fraud under that "Dream Act" system (which is doubtful given the fraud that occurred in the wake of the 1986 Amnesty).

If those 2 things could happen, there could be an agreement. But DO YOU SEE YOUR GOVERNMENT ENFORCING THE LAW AGAINST THE LAW-BREAKING DECISION MAKERS NOW? What is to indicate they will do that in the future?

AngelicaS - You're confused. This law is for children who didn't have any say in how they got to the US. They are the victims caught between their parents illegal act and an unyieldig electorate that can't tell the difference between the two such as yourself. These children are more American than anything else and should be given an opportunity to become citizens. It's the just and humane thing to do.

AngelicaS - You're confused.

I'm still trying to figure out how these kids are violating the law with impunity?

What does Angelica expect them to do? Turn in their parents? Pack up and run away back to Mexico?

Can someone help me out here?

AngelicaS - Get off your high horse already and stop putting conditons on the lives of children who are the victims in this entire mess. And if you really want to blame someone, try blaming the corporations who lobby the legislators to look the other way as the flood of cheap, abundant labor comes streaming over the border. If you don't think the government is complicit in this arrangement then you need to do some research on the subject and understand that it's all about economics and profit and it's not going to end anytime soon. Oh and BTW all those Republicans SOOOO against illegal immigration....I've got news for you, they like it just fine.

Feisty - You can't have a thoughtful conversation with people who are not rational.

Bigot - Somebody with strong opinions, especially on politics, religion, or ethnicity, who refuses to accept different views.

So you can either be a part of trying to fix the system or you can continue to be a bigot.

Fix the problem? But Navy doesn't seem receptive to anything except accepting DREAM - won't accept ot debate another opinion ... just calls others bigot.

Isn't Navy by definition ........ a bigot?

And how is fixing a problem, incentivising it?

What is utterly disgusting about the democrats is their disregard for the laws of this country. Taken from the article:

"Instead of kicking out of our country people who are educated, want to become educated, be productive members of our society, we should let them work," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said at a press conference to tout the proposed bill.

Illegal immigrants come into this country, produce an anchor baby and now everything is hunky dory? I don't think so.

The anchor baby is no excuse for allowing illegal immigration to continue here. Yes, let's call it what it is... ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION... Much different from legal immigration where foreigners are working towards citizenship.

Why the media refuses to put the word ILLEGAL in front of the word immigration is a mystery to me. Who's agenda is this?

PUT UP FENCES ALONG THE BORDER NOW! Then let's figure out what to do with those that are here. Stop the flow of people coming into this country. Obama is campaigning so he's going to say everything is good... when it's not! A moat with alligators in it is something I would agree to, except the illegals would shoot the gators and eat them.

Brianb - You're another one that doesn't get it.

Redhead, kicking out ILLEGAL immigrants is nothing like what nazi germany did to the people groups it didnt like, even in the days before ww2. Jews, communists, gypsies...they werent ILLEGAL. (I know how we can fix that though, lets legalize illegal immigration! Then its not a problem anymore, huh Redhead? Solves all our problems.)

Laurie---

I understand that you want Amnesty sans any conditions, but THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Your comments expose the reality that ILLEGAL immigration advocates like you falsely pretend that you are just seeking Dream Act for the children of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, BUT YOUR POST EVIDENCES THE FACT THAT YOU REFUSE TO ENFORCE THE LAW AGAINST ANYONE (INCLUDING THE LAWBREAKING DECISION-MAKERS) and you refuse to support protections that would ensure that there is no fraud, and THOSE ARE THE REASONS THAT YOUR "Dream Act" (a/k/a nightmare in its current form) WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Additionally, I am fully aware of the Government and corporate complicity in this massive lawbreaking scheme, AND THAT IS PRECISELY WHY I AM SPEAKING OUT (see above comments concerning the lawbreaking business profiteers). Further, the Republicans who refuse to support E-Verify are likewise disgraceful on this issue, but I am a Democrat, not a Republican. And, I just don't approve of my party promoting amnesty for lawbreaking en masse.

Hey BrianB---

It's not "Democrats" who don't get it! There are plenty of progressive Democrats like me who do not want amnesty for ILLEGAL FOREIGN NATIONALS. I agree with you that most (not all) Democratic Congressional leaders do not get it--- but Democratic voters get it. We understand the DEVASTATING COSTS of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, and we will continue to stand for justice for AMERICAN CITIZENS and LEGAL IMMIGRANTS whose rights are being devastated by these flawed legislative initiatives!

Make them all citizens, then have to support them? I know so many are on assistance and shouldn't be, but legalize, then our tax money will have to got to support the ones that come out of the woodwork.

There isn't enough jobs for people who deserve them now, (Americans), much less million+ that there will never be enough jobs for.

Before they make a mass blanket citizenship, they better workout the details. These people that came over illegally, didn't make the country what it is, they contributed na-da. They have no business reaping any of the benefits. They should go to the back of the line and wait their turn. But alas, it won't happen that way. They will be given special opportunities at the expense of more deserving Americans...because we are, sadly, a bleeding-heart nation...

AngelicaS - It's good to know that! This is an issue we can agree on... progress! I believe our government doesn't want to control ILLEGAL immigration. There is one sure way to do that. Secure the borders first. Use a fence, electrically charged with a concrete abatement built 20-30 feet under it.

I'm not sure if they don't want to stop the flow due to the drug trafficking, or they are looking for more warm bodies to vote for them. Whatever it is, the citizens of this country need to send them a strong message. I am totally against the DREAM act until they close the border. Then I'll listen to them about it.

AngelicaS - There's your problem.....the children are NOT the lawbreakers. There has to be some sort of remedy for these children that is fair and just to them....that allows them to have a chance at a normal life. Stop forcing the "sins of the father" on the children.

Laurie - Ohhhhh the poor children.... bad bad bad corporations.... nasty evil republicans. Will you ever stop? You are the one that doesn't get it. Your bigotry against anyone that disagrees with you is as bad as the other liberal/progressives on FR.

I am an independent... have been for years. I get it! We need to stop the flow before dealing with the people that are here. Maybe you just don't see it, but the Senate does NOT have their priorites in order. People have been screaming for border control for years and they are NOT listening to us. They are building the roof before the foundation is complete.

Honestly now, do I get it?

Laurie---

"The problem" is inherent in your posts--- Everyone can see that your objective is blanket amnesty! I have told you (for the 3rd time now) that Americans would get behind amnesty for non-decision making children brought here by their lawbreaking foreign-national parents provided no fraud and enforcement againt the decision-makers. However, THE PROBLEM IS YOUR MENTALITY--- YOU DON'T EVEN WANT TO AGREE THAT THE LAW SHOULD BE ENFORCED AGAINST THE LAWBREAKING DECISION-MAKERS or ANYONE. Your commitment to a refusal to enforce the law against anyone IS THE VERY ESSENCE OF THE EXISTING PROBLEM!

No Brian you don't get it. The borders are open because the legislators in our government want it that way. Their constituencies want it that way...or should I say the constituencies that pay the big bucks. The children are the victims of this economic collusion between the two.

AngelicaS - First things first....you don't have shout at me with your capital letters. I understand lower case letters just as well....second, these are two separate matters. One should not be held captive to the other and vice versa. The children did not commit the violation and they should not be held as a negotiating tool between the other parties. Yes I am for more border protection and a lessening of those coming across but I see that sealing off the border won't end the problem. What will end the problem is a sanctioning of the employers that WANT the illegal cheap help and petition their legislators for the privilege. Until Congress is willing to go after the employers, which they are not, the situation will not improve. You are putting the cart before the horse if you think for one minute by trying to seal up the border you end the problem.

Laurie you are wrong. 70% want border control. You are taking up for the 30% that do not want it.

Tell me Laurie, what happens to an American illegal immigrant that goes to Mexico? They are deported immediately or put into prison. It appears you are advocating the ILLEGAL immigrants.

I see you admit that the government is advocating ILLEGAL immigrants... and YOU AGREE with this?

Before we address anchor babies, the government needs to address the border. Obama says the borders are more secure than ever... BS! Don't you see the campaign lie? Don't you see how he is pandering? Or are you one of the voters that simply ignore the truth because Obama is a rock star?

Brian - I want border control as well. Whether or not it controls the problem but is another matter....don't you understand the collusion between government and those employers that want the illegal labor to flow freely? This is a problem with many facets. It's not so cut and dried as you pretend it is. My only issue here is that children who came here by no will of their own not be the pawns in this process. They deserve a life whether or not their parents gets deported or stay. This is a very targeted bill and deserves to be implemented.

Yes I am for more border protection and a lessening of those coming across but I see that sealing off the border won't end the problem. What will end the problem is a sanctioning of the employers that WANT the illegal cheap help and petition their legislators for the privilege. Until Congress is willing to go after the employers, which they are not, the situation will not improve. You are putting the cart before the horse if you think for one minute by trying to seal up the border you end the problem.

Laurie (numbers) - well said. THIS is the crux of the problem. If there wasn't an incentive for illegal immigration - money - then there would be no illegal immigration. What is even more interesting is that there are AMERICANS helping this illegal situation because they make money on the deal.

President Regean provided amnesty for illegal immigration in 1986, with the provison that there would be more immigration enforcement. As we can see, since we are STILL talking about this today, that provision did not materialize.

So how are we going to deal with 11 MILLION people who are here illegally?

-- Close the Borders? Sure, that will work for a while, but we STILL have the problem of people being here illegally.

-- Deport those not here legally? Sure, we could do that, but the cost would be astronomical. Is the American taxpayer ready to shell out more money for deportation costs?

My take on this whole situation - remove the incentive for the illegal immigration in the first place. If we all can agree on that ONE point, then we would be on the path to solving this problem - that is, if we REALLY want this problem to be solved.

So, do we really want to solve this problem or continue to throw rocks at each other?

I have one question to Angelica and JoannaSmith, and the rest of you Nay-sayers:

If the shoe was on the foot, and you were the one born in Mexico, would you enter this country illegally if that was the only mean to feed your family?

If you say "no" you are 2 things: either a liar or you don't care about your family.

It's easy to judge people from your pedestal but most of them are just hard working people who simply don't have any other way to provide for their families.

Human nature is to migrate to other places in search of food or shelter.

Laurie---

Well at least we can agree on something, and that is that targeting and rooting out the lawbreaking business profiteers should be high on the list of enforcement objectives.

However, there will be no amnesty for anyone until the law is adequately enforced. You are making the children the pawns in your push for amnesty. If the government would just enforce the law otherwise, then I am sure your agenda would pass. However, the current lax enforcement transmits the message that the law will never been enforced, such that granting amnesty would only serve to ensure that millions more would be coming here in violation of U.S. law (the 1986 Amnesty being proof of this manifest reality).

The difference between us is that your focus and concern are dedicated to granting benefits to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, whereas my primary concern is for the welfare of AMERICAN CITIZENS and LEGAL IMMIGRANTS (both adult and children), whose rights are being trampled by the absence of proper enforcement and the de facto amnesty that now exists. NOT ACCEPTABLE and --- NOT SUSTAINABLE!

Pietro - You summarized the problem in a nutshell. Nothing further to add until we can get past this critical piece of the issue. Thanks for understanding that this issue isn't as black and white as others here pretend it is.

Funny how the Democrats can get organized to help the illegal immigrants, but can't muster a jobs bill to help unemployed American citizens.

And herein lies the truth. This isn't about immigration reform. This is about expanding the welfare state and by extension the number of Democrat voters. This is about getting Obama re-elected. He is worried and beatable folks.

Sorry bayllie but Mexico is way better off than just about anywhere else - Africa, middle east. So shall we accept EVERYONE?

The pie is only so big. Life is hard, they are here illegally. That is the end of the analysis.

Or maybe Harry and Obama will actually do something to fix it. Sure they will, cause they waited until now for strategic, not political reasons, right?

Right - o.

Too bad Navy is too big of a sad sack to apologize. Oh well, to be expected from the libbie crowd.

Nice jod Navy. And terrific job Feisty.

The Dream Act is DOA. If the dems were ever serious about it they would have passed it when they had control of congress, but knew there losses would have been a lot worse in the last election, so they let it slide. It is all about votes and getting reelected.

Bayllie---

Why don't you try to come up with something that is a bit more intellectually honest than that! So I guess the world according to Bayllie is that all of the Mexicans (upon whom you focus) that are still in Mexico are either: (1) liars, or (2) don't care about their families. Are you kidding me!?!?!! Please just stop your LOW BROW PANDERING! Further, not everyone here ILLEGALLY is from Mexico, and there are many Mexicans here who DID NOT CHOOSE TO VIOLATE THE LAW and came here with authorization! I think you have just insulted Legal Mexican-Americans!

Let me tell you how rampant this problem of cheap labor and lawbreaking is, and let me me share how I elected to deal with it:

I hired Sears recently to install my air conditioning system (almost $6,500) (could have done it much cheapers with illegals). I told them not to send anyone to me who was not authorized to work in the U.S. nor licensed to do the work. I told them that I did not care about the nationalities of the people that were sent but that I wanted them to be authorized to work and licensed. When the time came for installation, showing up at my door were two guys who were subcontractors of a subcontracting company. I asked to see their credentials, and, sure enough, they did not have a license and were not authorized to install air conditioners by the State. They couldn't believe that I actually wanted to ensure that they were licensed to do the work. They believed (erroneously) that they were entitled to do the installation). So, I told Sears they had better send someone licensed to me ASAP. Eventually they did. This was a big headache to me, but I refuse to be a participant in this rampant scheme of ILLEGALITY! If everyone did the same thing, this massive problem would not exist!

The subcontractor who eventually performed the installation was an Hispanic gentleman who was licensed to install air conditioners in my state. He paid for his license. He paid for his schooling. He paid for his bond. Complying with the law was expensive for him. He now has to compete with the LAWBREAKERS. This is UNFAIR! I will not be complicit in the lawbreaking!

AngelicaS, the problem is not the illegal immigrants themselves, it is the unscrupulous employers that pay them well below minimum wage, charge you as if they were paid properly, and pocket the difference without paying the payroll taxes, FICA etc. If we were to seriously clamp down on the people doing the hiring, and like I posted earlier, Strip them of their citizenship, all money, property and savings, and shipped them to the nation where the bulk of their illegal employees came from, then suddenly there would be NO more hiring, most of the illegals would be fired, and they, most of them, would go back home. What attracts and KEEPS them here are those illegal employers. Just like ANY human on this planet, people will head to where they can make a better living for themselves than where they are at, especially when their home nations have been intentionally, through artificial exchange rates and other international political fiascos, kept impoverished. The companies that hire them make HUGE profits off their backs by not only paying a pittance in wages, but by not installing the required safety equipment and outright theft from the illegals by refusing to pay them after the work has been done. For the most part, the illegal immigrants are actually VICTIMS of our own economic/political/corporate system. Do NOT blame the immigrants, they are doing what ANY person in their situation would do, blame the companies, corporations and their owners/managers for the problem, it is their money that brought them here in the first place.

Please note, I do Not like the fact that there are so any illegals here myself, but what gripes me more is those that use and abuse these PEOPLE for their own greed and then attend the Repub rallies crying about what harm the illegals have done, yet the Repubs KNOW that their base is profiting handily from them and so BLOCK all meaningful legislation about them. The Democrats, by and large, are trying to do the ONLY Logical, Sane and Humane way to treat the problem. President Obama has tripled the size of the Border patrol, installed more fence and barriers than the Bush Admin did and has deported a record number of illegals....so...why are you blaming Pres. Obama and the Dems?? Yes, it IS unfair, but, it is those doing the hiring that are doing the damage, NOT the illegals themselves. Turn off the money spigot, ENFORCE the LAWS on hiring, PUNISH those that break THOSE laws and Illegal Immigration will shrink dramatically. Presently, the numbers coming over the border NOW are MUCH less than during the Bush Admin, so get over yourself, please!

AngelicaS - I actually LIKED how you dealt with the illegal issue. What is even MORE telling is that Sears SUBCONTRACTED the work out to someone who would do it CHEAPLY, and that would mean that they may - or may not - have a license to do the work.

The operative words are CHEAP LABOUR and PROFIT MARGIN.

In one post, AngelicaS, you have summed up WHY we have an illegal immigration problem in the FIRST place. And for the $6500 you paid for your unit, how much do you think that Sears actually 'saved' by sending in a subcontractor, who in turned got someone off the street for pennies on the dollar?

It is all about the PROFIT MARGIN and CHEAP LABOUR.

My challenge to everyone here stands. If we can remove the incentive for illegal immigration in the FIRST place, then we are on the road to solving this problem.

If there is no money incentive, there is no illegal immigration.

So, do we REALLY want to solve the problem or are we content with throwing rocks at each other?

Why don't you "B-Honest" and not try to mispreresent what I have said! I am against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. I want the law enforced against the lawbreaking businesses that do the hiring and I also want the law enforced against the ILLEGAL foreign nationals who have elected to violated U.S. Law.

Now you're perfectly correct that the Republicans haven't enforced the law either--- BUT I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN! I AM A PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRAT. For the issues that you raise (all of the reasons including how people are taken advantage of and the wage depresstion) the laws must be enforced! What I do not like is how my party leaders are championing amnesty rather than enforcing the law and protecting American citizens, whose interests they are duty-bound to protect!

I hired Sears recently to install my air conditioning system (almost $6,500) (could have done it much cheapers with illegals). I told them not to send anyone to me who was not authorized to work in the U.S. nor licensed to do the work. I told them that I did not care about the nationalities of the people that were sent but that I wanted them to be authorized to work and licensed.

AngelicaS - I really think that what you have shared is SO important to this debate. I took a snippet of your experience and I put part of it up above. Notice that you were dealing with a REPUTABLE company, and you paid your good, hard, American dollars for an air conditioning unit.

So far so good, right? But look what Sears did:

When the time came for installation, showing up at my door were two guys who were subcontractors of a subcontracting company.

Whoa - subcontractors of a subcontracting company? What gives??? Notice that there USED to be people employed by companies like Sears to do the installations. NOW they are using subcontractors to do the work, probably saving a LOT of money in the hiring and maintenance of employees. THIS is why there are less jobs available for people who need them - the work has been 'outsourced' to other companies that will do the job cheaper.

What is even MORE telling is that the subcontrator is subcontracting with ANOTHER company to provide the labour. Does the phrase 'too many hands in the pie' ring true here?

I asked to see their credentials, and, sure enough, they did not have a license and were not authorized to install air conditioners by the State. They couldn't believe that I actually wanted to ensure that they were licensed to do the work. They believed (erroneously) that they were entitled to do the installation).

Are we surprised that this is the result? I mean these guys were probably being paid to do the job on the cheap by the subcontractor - meaning it was probably a lump sum of some ridiculous amount (like $100 for the DAY). This is speculation, of course, but you get my drift. So, of COURSE the subcontractor felt they were 'entitled' to the work - that is why they were there, correct? Too bad for those guys that their 'company' forgot to tell them about the conditions of this sale and installation.

So, I told Sears they had better send someone licensed to me ASAP. Eventually they did. This was a big headache to me, but I refuse to be a participant in this rampant scheme of ILLEGALITY! If everyone did the same thing, this massive problem would not exist!

AngelicaS, KUDOS to your for putting your foot down. However, you, as a customer, SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO. This is what is wrong with our Corporate Business model today. You have to expend extra time and energy to get something done CORRECTLY.

What does this say about Sears? What does this say about how we are doing business in this country? Can we see how this kind of 'arrangement' causes - and sustains - the need for illegal immigration?

If the Subcontractor that Sears uses NEEDS to have guys/gals that will work for a 'lump sum' to do some work to maintain THEIR profit margin, who do you think they will be getting to do the work?

Americans probably could NOT live on the pay that is being offered. But look at who is satisfied:

-- Sears is satisfied. They have gotten their profit margin, so what do they care?

-- The Subcontractor got his money and doled out the pittance to the worker(s), so his profit margin is protected. Why would they care?

-- The person getting the shaft is the worker, who, in this secnario, probably did not get paid because they were not licensed. Did they KNOW that the customer requested a LICENSED contractor? Probably not, and this is why they were not believing the fuss that AngelicaS was making.

In the end, Sears made good on the request (eventually), and I am SURE that the Hispanic gentleman that did the work cost a LOT more than the two guys that were not licensed.

The bottom line is this - you may rail on about illegal immigration, but the American consumer is COMPLICIT in this racket by NOT checking - like Angelica S did - or CARING that the work is not being done by licensed personnel. Americans are in it for the BBD - Bigger Better Deal. I understand that money is tight for everyone, but this situation kinda feeds on itself, doesn't it?

If more Americans would close their wallets to goods made overseas and open them for goods made in America, then MAYBE we will see more goods made here.

But, until America wakes up, Companies like Sears will CONTINUE to make the obscene profits that they make and subcontract the work out instead of hiring American personnel to do the jobs that need to be done.

AngelicaS - thanks for your post on this. THis was an EXCELLENT example as to how complex this issue is concerning illegal immigration and how it pertains to how we are doing business in America, as Laurie (numbers) has pointed out.

AngelicaS

Bayllie---

Why don't you try to come up with something that is a bit more intellectually honest than that!

All I'm saying is that you treat these people like common criminals when I know for a fact that if you were put in the same position, you would do the same. I am not saying that we should allow everyone in and live as one happy family. I am saying that this problem will never stop. No human on this planet can prevent it even if you put a fence that's a mile tall. People will find a way to get in. What I do disagree with is people like you that feel that you are somewhat superior just because of the place of your birth. Be grateful that you won this lottery because your life could have been totally different.

You did not answer my question -would you do the same?

THE BIGOTS ARE THOSE DEMANDING SPECIAL TREATMENT FOR PEOPLE WHO SELFISHLY DECIDED TO VIOLATE U.S. LAW WITH IMPUNITY

I will ask you another question: can you honestly say that you have never violated any US laws? Under age drinking, speeding, running a red light, etc? If you answer yes, than you should immediately walk into a police station and turn yourself in because you would not want to receive any special treatment like those people who selfishly decided to violate the US law and got away with it. If you answer no, then you are a liar.

I don't see people like you speak against the "entrepreneurs" that profit from this - those are the criminals. You speak of some Mexican family like they are the devil but you give a free pass to the Walmarts that make millions off the desperation of these people. Did you report Sears? Did you have any proof that they were illegal? did you do anything about it at all? You think that this Sears example prooves aything?

All I am saying is unless you can honestly say that you would not do the same in this situation - DON"T JUDGE.

AngelicaS, I did not mean to misinterpret what you said, only to show a different emphasis to the obvious problems. However, since you are railing so very hard against the PEOPLE that are here illegally, let me remind you what is enshrined on the plaque at the base of the Statue of Liberty:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

This Nation was BUILT by Immigration, and for the most part it was illegal occupation, criminals and debtors sent here from their mother lands, immigration from the South by people that are/were indigenous Natives to this land (before the borders were declared they migrated back and forth, freely) and by peoples of ALL nations who yearned to be free and follow the American Dream of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. We USED to be very proud that our borders were open to all, that we took immigrants from all over the world, to give them a chance at a better life here.

Thank you for your insightful comments Pietro! You are correct. The use of subcontractors allows a large company like Sears to claim plausible deniability (they get to claim that they DIDN'T KNOW the people who showed up weren't licensed, as required). However, in my State YOU HAVE TO HAVE AN ACTUAL LICENSE TO INSTALL AIR CONDITIONING SYSTEMS so I was able to verify the absence of a license with the Department of Professional Regulations.

Sears had simply washed their hands of the task after I gave them a subtantial check as payment in full. They learned differently later when I followed up by refusing to accept the unlicensed labor that showed up. This needs to become the norm, because, for one, am hereinafter REFUSING TO BE PART OF THE PROBLEM BY PERMITTING UNAUTHORIZED and/or UNLICENSED labor to perform work on my property. DON'T BE PART OF THE PROBLEM BY PERMITTING SOMEONE TO DO WORK FOR YOU WHO IS UNAUTHORIZED TO DO THE WORK!

The fact is that we cannot control every circumstance in which we indirectly support the wage depression caused by businesesses that hire unauthorized workers, but we can let them know that the status quo that has become the new normal IS NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE! Do your part!

THANKS FOR YOUR ANALYSIS PIETRO! VERY IMPORTANT, INDEED!

B. Honest

Thank you for the great post. Apparently it's ok to make profit off illegals as long as you are a US citizen - that's just business. But let's throw someone who makes $5/hr and works 12hrs a day in jail because how dare does he brake the law. Who cares about his family...

I don't have any solutions or even ideas on how to fix it and never had or will claim that I do. But our government has not have any answers since the day the Pilgrims stepped on this land. People have been coming here since 1620, but for some reason, 2011 is the year to change immigration. The 43 previous for some reason President Obama is being held to a higher standard.

The 43 previous for some reason President Obama is being held to a higher standard.

was supposed to state: the 43 previous presidents could not accomplish this but President Obama is being held to a higher standard.

Bayllie---

Please go back and re-read my posts vs. your own. I did not bring up a "Mexican" family--- YOU DID THAT! (and you implied that if you are Mexican you are required to violate U.S. law--- THOSE ARE YOUR STATEMENTS--- NOT MINE--- I WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS TO TELL YOU THAT I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THAT). And, of course, I am sure that I have violated speeding and other laws --- AND I PAID THE PRICE! But the law for coming into the U.S. with no permission is deportation, and that is pecisely what needs to happen.

And you don't see me "speaking out against the entrapreneurs"--- CAN YOU READ BAYLLIE???? If you can, go back and read all of my posts, and then you'll recognize the extetn of your false statements. Obviously I live by what I advocate. As to your next asine comment--- I knew they were not licensed to install air conditioning systems because I called the Department of Professional Regulations and confirmed that fact!

And B-Honest--- We are a nation of immigrants. We welcome LEGAL IMMIGRANTS (over 700,000 EACH YEAR). We HAVE THE MOST GENEROUS IMMIGRATION POLICIES IN THE WORLD. We cannot sustain the unlimited ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION FOR WHICH YOU ADVOCATE. We support LEGAL IMMIGRATION-- not ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!

First of all , Navy vet, the Obama admn. already sent 500,000 of the Illegals home just this year so keep doing it and it won't take too long !!!Also SECURE the BOARDER first !!!!!! Thousands still cross !!!!! I'm a construction contractor , self-employed, and these cretins do steal my jobs, and they underbid all of their work. Think about us Americans first , many of whom are legal immigrants !!!!!!!

AngelinaS..Now YOU are the one misinterpreting what I said, I DO NOT advocate illegal immigration. I would MUCH prefer them to be here legally, but the FACT is that they are ALREADY here. The only way to solve the problem is to HEAVILY penalize those that hire them, and find some fast track method for making them legal as trying to find and deport 15-20 Million people is a bald impossibility. I am only looking at the REALITY of the situation, and in that my personal wants do not count. I would love to see those 15-20 M PEOPLE go back and do it right, but that is obviously Not going to happen, so, we must figure out the next best thing.

Stop harping on what YOU think are other people's wrong statements because you are not reading very well yourself. Calm down and apply some LOGIC to your statements, you have some VERY good points, but yelling at people does not make you more right and your views are Not the only ones to be taken into account!

Angelica,

As to your next asine comment--- I knew they were not licensed to install air conditioning systems because I called the Department of Professional Regulations and confirmed that fact!

so are you speaking here about illegal immigrants or unlicensed workers??? beacuse one has nothing to do with the other unless you claim that all unlicensed workers are illegal immigrants.

I did not bring up a "Mexican" family--- YOU DID THAT!

I did as an example -by no means was I claiming that you did.

you implied that if you are Mexican you are required to violate U.S. law

I m not sure where you got that one... I said that if you are a Mexican you are required to violate US law???????????????

And, of course, I am sure that I have violated speeding and other laws --- AND I PAID THE PRICE!

yes because EVERYTIME you speed, you pay a ticket...

Johnny N.

I'm a construction contractor , self-employed, and these cretins do steal my jobs, and they underbid all of their work.

These "cretins" you speak of are your fellow contractors who profit handsomely from hiring cheap labor.

B. Honest

"I would MUCH prefer them to be here legally, but the FACT is that they are ALREADY here."

That they are here is not the point. That they are here and still coming illegally is the point. First fix the border, then address those who are here illegally. If it doesn't happen in that order, no Dream Act or any other act will make any difference. The proof is when Reagon gave amnesty to the millions already here and opened the flood gates for the rest because the border was not secured.

Bob-3374873

The proof is when Reagon gave amnesty to the millions already here and opened the flood gates for the rest because the border was not secured.

Some GOP-ers wrongly label the DREAM Act "amnesty," though it is nothing of the kind, particularly for those DREAM-ers willing to risk their lives fighting in Afghanistan. Truly, they will have earned their residency more than ordinary Americans who've scored their citizenship by birth. It's legislation which would allow young men and women brought to the U.S. from other countries when they were kids to apply for temporary residency. If within six years they earn a college degree or serve in the military, they could score a green card.

bayllie - You are incorrect. There are NO DREAM-ers willing to risk their lives fighting in Afghanistan. DREAM-ers by definition are illegal aliens and cannot enlist in our armed forces.

To enlist in the military if you are not a US citizen, you must legally and permanently immigrate to the United States first, via the regular immigration procedures and quotas, establish a residence, and then (if you meet the other qualifying criteria), visit a military recruiter's office and apply for enlistment.

These children are more American than anything else and should be given an opportunity to become citizens. It's the just and humane thing to do.

They ARE NOT American and I can not wait to clarify the 14th Amendment. We passed the 14th Amendment so that Southerners would be forced to allow black people to vote.

Judges make stupid decisions sometimes and then the legislature needs to clarify the law. The precedent allowing anchor babies to be Americans was wrongly set because the judge ignored an aspect of international law - the phrase "and subject to its jurisdiction."

AND THE TERM IS NOT ILLEGAL immigration. THE TERM IS ILLEGAL alien.

And who cares anyway. They could not pass the Dream Act the last time. If anything, the senators that were on the fence are no longer on the fence and are on the side of Team America. It will NEVER pass the House as long as Speaker Boehner is in charge. I don't even think he'll put it on the floor for a vote.

I suppose most on here didn't catch Obama saying the fence was completed on the border? I'm glad to know that 129 miles of a 2000+ mile fence is "completed". BTW - a RHINO republican put the lanquage into a Democrat bill last year to give the government the loophole it needed to not construct the fence.

Glenn, you need to watch TV.... president Obama granted citizenship to a nurse and other soldiers already enlisted in the US Army broadcasted in national TV about 4-6 months ago. The nurse and the other soldiers are mexican.

Around 700 mexican nationals have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq with a citizenship promise for them and their mexican families. Some of their bodies were buried in Mexico with U.S. Army honors. Their families obtained legal residence in the U.S. as promised.

Why nobody complaint about such trade?? ... why nobody in the immigration office put those families in the waiting line?... a lot of people in this discussion is talking about "enforcing the law", "do it the right way", "wait for your turn".... the laws are flexible and negotiable, period.

The name of the game is money, illegals are just a consequence... and they are used by Corporations, US Army, political speeches, gain votes, or whatever you might imagine.... they are cheap, available and disposable.

@ Equlaizer......"Around 700 mexican nationals have been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq with a citizenship promise for them and their mexican families. Some of their bodies were buried in Mexico with U.S. Army honors. Their families obtained legal residence in the U.S. as promised"

Where is your references? Your sources?

Tom,

Here is the note: www.eluniversal.com.mx/nacion/185317.html

If you dont read Spanish, use Babelfish translator. El Universal is a mexican newspaper equivalent to NY Times or Washington Post.

I know about the bodies buried in Mexico with US Army honors because there was a conflict with the firearms used by the US soldiers in these honors (In Mexico is prohibited the use of firearms other than police/army).

The note also states that the Penthagon pays $20,000 USD for a 3 year service in the frontline.

How exactly are the children who were brought here violating US law with impunity? Are you saying the children are responsible for the sins of their parents?

Simple

"DREAMers" are eligible for this program up to the age of 29. Since the age of majority in the US is 18. Any "DREAMer" 18 or over is commiting a crime by remaining in the US. As they are ADULT illegal aliens in violation of US law.

As far as the minor illegal aliens, they should not be rewarded as a result of the crimes of the parents. That is a mockery of justice to all law-abiding US citizens and legal immigrants.

And the republican's will kill it and thank God rightfully so.

PSLC:

Ever notice that the GOP/TP almost always accuses people of doing when in fact it is what they are doing. Like stalling the jobs and economy and then say President Obama is doing it. They were the ones along with 5 dems that kicked this can down the road in December, now let us see who has the stones to do what is right and who is just well a liar. They will pay in 2012.

Come on Navy, lwts bet on the number of dems that will bounce this turgid POS bill.

I say it will definately exceed the 5 that did so last time. And you?

Oh and while you are at it Navy - do tell us why this is "right" as in the right thing to do.

ilegal is ilegal, or are you not in favor of the rule of law? Perhaps you are more for some laws and not others? Ok, who gets to choose which laws are enforced and which ignored?

Should it be you, Feisty, or maybe it should be the american people? See the vast majority want no part of any amnesty, which is why this bill is a silly waste of time.

But then you know that, right Navy?

Navy - why is being against granting amnesty being a bigot. Why can't I be observed as being one who would like to be seen as wanting our laws upheld?

Someone blew the bigot whistle...

Ok Feisty and Navy - please tell us how being against amnesty or the Dream Act makes someone a bigot.

Step up or shut up.

Hey..everyone here makes the word amnesty sound like a dirty word. Nixon got amnesty. The draft dodgers during Viet Nam war that went to Canada got amnesty.

Read over and over...we don't want them here. You going to round up 10 to 20 million people? Let'make it a national priority over jobs, the debt, 3 wars and the economy.

Solve the problem and stop making non sensible remarks that solve nothing.

Ira - I appreciate you focus on jobs, but dude adding 11 million more unskilled, uneducated workers does not help the jobs issue.

Ira, we agree Obama is pandering, so why does he hate the poor and middle class? This crap would only hurt them, right. Not a lot of illegals practicing law, medicine or accounting, so us white collar folks will be just fine. It's the poor and middle.

Why Ira? And can you explain this to the Feistys, Navys and other of your libbie ilk? They just don't seem to get it. You my friend can clue them in. To you they will listen. :)

Fun, right Ira?

We are not talking about amnesty. We are talking about a path for them to get legal. Nobody is waving a magic wand and saying I now declare you all citizens.

And now you guys propose that we should act like vigilantes and look for illegals around every corner and blow them in. We did that during WWII, the people were Japanese and Japanese Americans, we put them in camps. Sorry that is not America.

You guys are totally despicable and have lost any sense of humanity that you had left. You are truly becoming a very shallow party devoid of morality, ethics, shame, any sense at all of what is fair play or right. It is all about you and the he!! with anybody else. Well other countries have tried going that route and they even lasted for awhile. But in the end that ideology always looses.

I think I will go and throw up. You turn my stomach

Spanky,

First, we are NOT adding 11 milllion unskilled jobs. These people are already here and have these jobs already. Who says that once they are legal and can pursue an education without fear of deportation, they won't take advantage of that. This is not a caste system. Fear of deportation is holding them back. Just like what affirmative action did for the black community, a path to citizenship would do for the Latino community.

Oh...and yes he is pandering. Needs to show that constituency he did something about immigration and got shot down. That does not mean that what I've posted here is wrong.

Spanky-

"Ok Feisty and Navy - please tell us how being against amnesty or the Dream Act makes someone a bigot."

If they fail to do so, we are looking to you, Spankie, to tell us how it does not.

We're all ears.

One MAJOR benefit of what the Repubs/TPers are crying Amnesty about is the fact that once those people become LEGAL, they will no longer be fearing deportation and can report wage, hours worked and safety violations to the proper authorities. On top of that, the businesses that hire the illegals presently would then be forced to pay REAL wages, increasing the tax base, since the people working for them would be Americans then. What really needs to happen is to deport the Business Owners that hire the illegals, send them to the nation from which the majority of their illegal workers come from and REMOVE their money, savings and citizenship here since they so desire to break American laws to that extent and have made their money from an illegal enterprise. Illegal hiring would come to a dead stop, I can assure you!

However, the DREAM Act is not about Amnesty, it is rewarding those who have come here and participated in the American Dream by getting educated and serving in our militaries.

Wasn't Newt one of the ingredients in that VooDoo Economics thing that the Repubs forced on us??

Per Wikipedia: A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of political views, different ethnicity, race, class, religion, or gender.

So now Navy...I officially call you a BIGOT.

Navy - talking in extremes does not make your case. I don't want to look for illegals at every corner and blow them in. I want the border fence built and secured so the flow of illegals comes to a halt. The drug cartels have stationed themselves south of the border and there's an unfettered flow of drugs coming into this country. It's a fix that I believe most Americans (except drug users) would agree with. The illegals that are here now can be dealt with after the flow stops, but let's set the priorities in order.

You CAN'T deal with the illegal immigrants without cutting off the flow. It's like pouring water back into a reservoir with a leaking dam.

John - Bingo! You got him on that fact! There are more bigots here that are so politically motivated against the other party they refuse to accept common sense.

Nice try GOP/TP people, not buying it. If standing up for a minority of people that want to call the USA home is a bigot, then I proudly raise my hand. If because I stand up for the children born here to make sure they get to keep their rights, then I am guilty as charged. See you guys do not have a leg to stand on so you call me the bigot because I called your bigotry posts out. Typical republican, cannot stand the truth.

I support the Dream act and I hope it passes. I stand for a logical fair plan that gives a path to citizenship for all who want it and qualify for it (no felons for example).

I do not stand for bounty hunters turning in their neighbors just because their skin color is different. How do you proposed to tell who is legal and who is not. You gonna ask for their papers?? How many will be wrongly targeted??

I stand by my position and if that makes me a bigot, I cannot even remotley think what that makes you other than sub-human.

They pulled this crap in Europe and look what it got them. I refuse to let this country go down that same path. So either work to solve the problem and give those the opportunity to be citizens, follow the laws, pay taxes etc, etc, or move to a country more your liking, like Libya, or Afghan, or someplace similar.

You CAN'T deal with the illegal immigrants without cutting off the flow. It's like pouring water back into a reservoir with a leaking dam.

Brianb - your are trying to solve a problem by drawing the WRONG conclusions.

If you want to stem the flow, then you MUST consider the source of that flow and WHY that flow is working the way it does. Using your analogy, MAYBE if we didn't feed the reservoir, we wouldn't NEED to have a dam in the first place.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired, You do realize this bill is not about "children born here" or "Anchor Babies".

This bill is about providing a road to citizenship (amnesty) to those illegal aliens 29 and younger, who were brought to the US illegally as children (under the age of 15) AND have lived here illegally for 5 years or more.

Thanks for highlighting that it is in fact you Navy that is the bigot.

Not real surprise really.

And DBO - nothing bigoted about seeking to uphold the law, or is it your contention that the law - and yes I mean the one that identifies all in the country without proper documentation, regardless of how they got here - is wrong? Of course you are not.

Silly DBO, just silly.

Well, comments from some of you:

So much for:

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free."

What a concept.

If a child makes it to college, I say let them become citizens.Why not?

No more 3rd world immigration, legal or not !!!!!!

Feisty. Exactly, thank you.

PSLC:

Welcome to the club. Pretty soon we will have our own PAC. (Progressives Against Corruption).

PAC. (Progressives Against Corruption).

Count me in as a PROUD card carrying member! lol

Don't look now but, they brought you down over on FT's - so my records from yesterday as fastest collapse stands! ;oP

LMAO!

Ditto, welcome to the club, Patrick.

I don't vote to collapse posts, but perhaps they were collapsed because they are of no value. After reading your stuff from today, I would guess that is why you get bopped.

don't vote to collapse posts, but perhaps they were collapsed because they are of no value. After reading your stuff from today, I would guess that is why you get bopped.

Then yours should be gone by now??

Wrong, they do it because they cannot stand the truth and freedom of speech only counts when they are talking.

GO read my post #1 on FT and then come back.

Mine get collapsed too, It is actually funny, I know I hit a raw nerve then.

GO PAC

What is really funny is the 5 or 6 of you progressives that post on here think you are speaking for the majority of U.S. citizens. It should tell you something when progressive's posts get collapsed on a normally progressive website.

Do we allow the children of bank robbers to keep the money their parents steal? If you support the DREAM act then you should support letting the children of bank robbers keep the money their parents steal. Can't punish the children for the sins of the parents...right?

The reason conservatives hire illegels is not only because they work for less, but they are willing to do the work the spoiled kids of republicans refuse to do.

Patrick:

Spoiled Republican kids?

Are you saying there are not any spoiled Democrat kids?

That was just an asinine thing to say. What do you know about illegals in Utah? Obviously nothing because you can't even spell it correctly. I live next door to bleeding heart liberals and I guarantee those mexicans maintaining their lawns are not legal. Not one of them speaks English.

The Dream Act is all POLITICAL...........all of a sudden Reid wants to bring this up........all calculated. He needs to bring himself up from being slumped over......too damn old to be there anyway.

Chuck H.

First your Bigotry is showing and second it was the GOP/TP that filled the air waves with their rhetoric about JOBS JOBS JOBS and the ECONOMY during the 2010 election cycle. They also keep repeating the lie that tax cuts to the rich create jobs and stimulate the economy. So they have not offered one single job bill, not one single plan to stimulate the economy, and the tax cuts do not work. We been on the Bush Plan for 10 years and where are the jobs the GOP/TP PROMISED.

If you live in a glass house you really should be careful throwing stones. You want to know where the JOBS are, ask Boehner.

Best comment EVAH!

Spoiled republican kids. Priceless.

Keep up you good and highly insightful work Patrick.

I presume your kids are totally not lazy, right Pat?

ITM. Of course their are spoiled democrats, but I want to focus on spoiled republicans.

Yesterday the conservative and media narrative was, democrats were ignoring the the immigration issue, no matter what changes in the world, one thing remains consistent, whiny republicans

Spanky. Only the conservative ones.

There goes the usual Liberal speak if you do not agree with someone call the a racist or a bigot That just shows the intelligents you have or I should say the lack of

Open. Checked, did not see the words bigot or racist in this stream. Did you get lost?

Then try reading Big Mouth Navy's post 4.3 the first line would state

First your Bigotry is showing

The new word today for the Liberals is 'bigot'.

Any timeline for when you Libs will get back to accusing people that disagree with you as being 'nazis'?

Do any of you value the laws country? Which ones do youchose to respect, or not?

Openmind got the Rove memo, accuse the other side of what his/her side is doing.

Patrick - I assume you can read, so are you ignoring all the comments from your side about bigots?

Dude, Fiesty , Navy are talking about flowers or roses. We are bigots, don't you know. Oh and our kids are lazy, right Pat.

Well played Pat.

Of course PatrickSaltLakeCity was only referring to Republican kids. The democrat kids he knows don't work because they're too busy hiking around the mountains in their Birkenstocks and socks and Patagonia shorts. (But, let one of them fall into a canyon or cravasse and watch them scream for a military-trained SAR guy to come and save their ass.)

Gee patrick you can't find those words anywhere can you

ITM, your post indicates that you are seriously a flawed individual!

Why, or how in the world did you end up in a "bleeding heart liberal' neighborhood......"mexicans, not speaking English"

Were you first in or last in? Whatever the case, you certainly have the option of moving!

Food for thought, ITM.....Gov Perry says its OK for the undocumented to remain in Texas if they are landscapers..do you disagree with Perry?

You sir are a bigot!

JoAnna- Feisty already pulled the nazi card back at #1.11

JoAnna- Feisty already pulled the nazi card back at #1.11

My, aren't you bright! lol

Why don't you explain to us, the difference between turning people in here is the US on the basis of their looks, is any different than what happened in Nazi Germany?

Until then to bad if it makes you uncomfortable, the truth has a funny way of doing just that!

WTH are you talking about? JoAnna asked a question I answered it.

Who said turning anyone in on the basis of their looks? I would turn an employer in in a heart beat if I knew for a fact they were hiring illegals, it's ILLEGAL what is so hard to understand about that word?

If I break the law I get punished for it, shouldn't they?

My son is a cop and he pulls illegals over all the time and is told by ICE that they will not come and get them. Their answer is give them a ticket and let them go, Like they will ever show up in court. I work in a federal building and see the revolving door of Illegals all day long. The Police bring them in the back door and DHS let's them out the front. Feisty you and your liberal state is a drain on this country

Chilled:

Yes I am a black bigot....lol ...Man go back to sleep.

I will stay where I please whether it is next door to Liberals or Conservatives. Those liberals may not like that a black man is able to afford a home in that neighborhood and not have it forclosed on in 6 months, but I am there.

openminded, I have found that once you fact feisty into a corner she'll either resort to name calling or no longer answer.

openminded, I have found that once you fact feisty into a corner she'll either resort to name calling or no longer answer.

You mean like how I handed you your a@@ last weekend?

What FACT?

I asked YOU to tell me the difference, instead you do what all you right wingers do when they don't have an answer & change the subject!

It was YOU hon, that didn't answer the question...

Project MUCH? lol

My son is a cop and he pulls illegals over all the time and is told by ICE that they will not come and get them. Their answer is give them a ticket and let them go, Like they will ever show up in court.

Openmind266 - does ICE ever give a reason WHY they will not come and get an illegal person? I am betting that cost is the main reason, but since your son is on the front lines, you have access to information that many of us here do not.

I work in a federal building and see the revolving door of Illegals all day long. The Police bring them in the back door and DHS let's them out the front.

DHS - as in Department of Homeland Security? Can you give some examples? Again, I am more curious than anything else.

um no feisty I handed yours to you, I did in fact answer with cited FACTS.

I didn't change the subject then and I didn't change the subject now, you put words into someone else's mouth and I asked who said based on their looks, seems to me you're the one who didn't answer.

um no feisty I handed yours to you, I did in fact answer with cited FACTS

You sweetie - get the funniest comment of the week AWARD!

Congrats! ;o)

What's next?

I know you are but what am I?

Thanks for playing - it's been a hoot!

Come back and see me when you graduate to a worthy opponent will ya?

and you're still not answering.

Do any of you value the laws country? Which ones do you chose to respect, or not?

Ask the GOP/TP, they are the ones that now want to obey only those federal laws they agree with and ignore the rest.

Let me see if I understand this, I ask you a question which you DON'T answer and I'm the one not answering?

Well Okee Dokee - like I said come back when you have some debating skills and I might decide to waste some of my time on you...

Until then, have a nice day!

I'm done entertaining you - go find someone else to troll m'kay?

I love you like no other Feisty, but come on the day you show the ability to form an argument, let alone develop an ability to debate will be the best day in the history of the forum.

It is also a flat impossibility.

But do keep trying old gal. You are simply the best. And really - it's all day, everyday [including Sat. and Sun.] so it ain't like you have ANYTHING else to do my dear. Oh My!

Oh and Navy - it really is time for you to give this whole topic up and just go away.

ut aving said that, please don't . Just keeping digging yourself in. I love the fact that you cannot see how badly this has gone for you. :)

Spanky, be fair. How on earth would Navy or any of the other liberals recognize an issue that is not working, when the person they worship as the Smartest Man In The World does not?

Obama still does not understand what happened in November. Never will, it seems.

The Dream Act was a pretty big issue in November, too.

Brought it up for a vote, as I recall. Did not pass, but it sure did not help all those democrats in the House who voted for it.

Strange. Most politicians run away from issues that hurt them. Not Obama. Nope. He just keeps on keeping on.

His new campaign bit goes along the lines of "I need another term to finish the job". Any day now, I expect him to start calling for another stimulus package. Maybe tell people how dumb they are not to recognize how marvelous his HCR is- you know, all those things that worked so well in the mid-terms.

Ah, well. WTF.

"I have a dream"

MLK, people are treating Mexicans, Latino's like they did the blacks in the 50's

Time to get over it.

In other words, the sins of the father are transferrable to the sons and daughters.

It's a matter of priorities. Suddenly we are now focusing on the problems of the illegal immigrants--they need money to go to school, they need support.

What about the children of American citizens who now face drastic cuts in financial aid and who are graduating with degrees to work at McDonald's? What about the unemployed American citizens who are losing their assets at a record pace? Where is the Dream Act for American citizens? I thought we didn't have enough revenue for all this?

What other program can we cut to find funds for the Dream Act?

Illegals working in this country give us, as President Obama said, an underground economy. That underground economy reduces wages for citizens of this country. Trying to blame one group of people for all America's ills is a cop out, an easy talking point and something conservative politicians have been doing for decades. It is time for both parties to have a debate and do something to solve the problem; to do otherwise, simply means another two or four or six or ?? years of kicking the can down the road. It probably never occurs to some that by reforming immigration, everyone benefits.

It is not democrats but republicans who insist on cutting educational programs for all young people who are citizens--it's in the Paul Ryan budget, the one that cuts PEL grants but gives another 10% tax cut to 2% of multi-millionaires, the one that spends more on Defense than on anything else, the one 235 House republicans voted YEA and now try to claim it was just a blueprint and they didn't mean it.

"It probably never occurs to some that by reforming immigration, everyone benefits."

Oh. Like the theory of trickle-down economics? The Dream Act will magically restore our economy and restore unemployment for all.

How will that work...exactly? Maybe I can get my kid on the Dream Act so he can have enough funds to go to college. Oops! He'd have to be a noncitizen, wouldn't he?

Serious immigration reform begins with securing the borders, particularly the border with Mexico. It is the Administration that's not serious about reform. They are serious about pandering to Hispanic voters. Meanwhile, illegals pour over the Southern border of the US in a sea of brown like an overflowing toilet.

It is the Administration that's not serious about reform.

You were saying?

President Barack Obama offered a defense of his administration’s immigration policies in response to a question about the controversial bill recently passed by Georgia lawmakers to catch illegal immigrants.

"We have now more Border Patrol officers … than we’ve had at any time in our history," Obama told Channel 2 Action News anchor Justin Farmer.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=29&ved=0CFAQFjAIOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politifact.com%2Fgeorgia%2Fstatements%2F2011%2Fapr%2F29%2Fbarack-obama%2Fobama-says-us-has-more-agents-ever-borders%2F&ei=QcjKTceEGebg0QHkiOXKBw&usg=AFQjCNEeuPpnBOIb6eV8AEDvZQ9exqO8GA

jonbell. Securing the border is one leg of the 3-legged stool. Serious immigration reform requires addressing all the legs at approximately the same time. Without comprehensive immigration reform, the border can never be secured.

Serious immigration reform begins with clamping down on the businesses that recruit and hire illegal immigrants and deny unemployed Americans jobs. You wouldn't need border control if there were no jobs available for illegal immigrants.

But, sure, it makes sense to take our focus off UNEMPLOYMENT to support the needs of people who are not citizens. By passing the Dream Act, the recession is sure to disappear, too--at least, that's what they say.

One reason local govts are bankrupt is because they were forced to provide medical and educational benefits for the illegals who were hired by corporations.

BlueBurner. I agree with some of what you say, go after employers, hit them with huge fines and even prosecute for knowingly and willingly breaking our laws. The Obama administration has been doing just that. That rarely makes the beltway or MSM news.

It isn't just illegals who go to hospitals and are given medical care the rest of us pay for with higher premiums, it is uninsured Americans who either can't afford it or choose not to buy it--which is exactly why Romneycare and Obamacare mandate coverage. Connect the dots.

House and Senate republicans tell us they are focused on unemployment as they pass one piece of legislation after another restricting women's reproductive rights or some other pet social issue. How many jobs does that create? Demanding democrats to focus on jobs, unemployment and the economy, requires demanding it from republicans as well. BTW, I haven't seen or heard anyone claiming that the DREAM Act will end unemployment but it does give young Americans a chance to be productive citizens rather than part of the underground economy which hurts everyone.

Chilled:

Yes I am a black bigot....lol ...Man go back to sleep.

I will stay where I please whether it is next door to Liberals or Conservatives. Those liberals may not like that a black man is able to afford a home in that neighborhood and not have it forclosed on in 6 months, but I am there........

ITM, admitted Black Bigot, your pretzel logic is just that......stop tying yourself in knots. You're the one casting rocks at your liberal neighbors!

Yes, LIBERAL! They let you live next door...and yet YOU complain!

Jody according to your logic the children of bank robbers should be allowed to keep the money their parents steal. If you do not believe the children of bank robbers should be allowed to benefit from their parents illegal activity, then please explain why you believe the children of people who have broken other laws should be allowed to.

I think they wait to see what President Obama says and then take the opposite position.

This is one issue that plenty of democrats and independents have also taken the opposite position on. The Dream Act is just another word for amnesty. I usually support Obama but not on this subject. I agree that he is just trying to make it look like he is actually trying to get amnesty passed to get the Hispanic vote and illegal vote. Two years of college after we paid for K-12 educations is just not any kind of hardship or "payback" for being here illegally. I would be more inclined to support it if it was four years of unpaid community service (such as rebuilding homes in flooded areas). Two years of college is a benefit to them not the taxpayers. If it couldn't pass before, it is a waste of time to attempt it again. There are plenty of issues that need to be addressed for the legal citizens of this country. We don't have time for this bleeding heart nonsense.

Having said all that, I still can't believe this is taking priority over job s bills and the economy. Can't anyone prioritize in DC?

Speaker Boehner: WHERE ARE THOSE JOBS YOU PROMISED???

"President Bush asked for comprehensive reform and, at one time, was supported by Sen. John McCain and many other senior republicans."

And it did not pass because the American citizens over-whelmed the government switchboard, email system and fax machines expressing their displeasure with the idea. I am going to point something out to you that you apparently are unable to grasp......Bush tried to get a "comprehensive immigration" bill passed and a clear majority of Americans were against it..... Obama wants to get a "comprehensive immigration" bill passed and a clear majority of Americans are against it. This tells you just how bad of an idea "comprehensive immigration" reform must be. It is one of very few issues that truly has bi-partisan support. No amnesty of any type is acceptable... period.

"Give me your tired, your poor....." says a great deal more about what this country represents to those yearning to be free. As for birth-right citizenship, our Founding Fathers intended that the children of all who came here would be recognized as free and independent citizens of this country because their parents chose this country to be their home. "Don't Tread on Me" was/is a warning to other countries to never think of invading or threatening the United States, it has nothing to do with immigration or even gun rights.

The full story is as follows... An illegal break into your home, wash the dishes, trim your yard, paint your house, do the housekeeping, build your extra-room, and you pay half of what you should... you look the other way with a happy face because you saved some bucks... and then you complaint because the illegal also stole your identity, drain your assets, receive benefits from your taxes and demand amnesty.

If they are and live illegaly in the US, is because someone is supporting them with a job, with a house/rent. No jobs to illegals, no illegals in the US.

You don't end a crime wave by simply eliminating the law in question and magically converting the violators of that law into law-abiding citizens.

funny how you use prohibition in your comment mike, cause thats exactly how they ended the crime wave that followed prohibition.

Prohibition CAUSED the crime wave, moron. Alcohol was previously legal. Illegal immigration - by definition - was never legal. That's why it's referred to as "illegal" immigration.

Shawn...secure the BOARDERS? Why that's laughable--why didn't you suggest that when Bush was in office seeing as they opened the boarders. What I see is another problem created by the last administration that's left this issue dangling (just as he did countless others) for someone else to clean up.

Now all of a sudden you're suggesting setting standards before passage of such an important issue as this? Why that's what I call DITHERING.

Actually WHAT the Republicans were hoping for was recapturing the White House to continue dismantling this nation...all indications are beginning to point in that direction.

got news for you, obama and you dem libs are doing a better job of that than the repubs could ever do, and 5 times faster.

NO DREAM ACT, NO AMNESTY EVER!!!!!

Aw sh!t I thought you actually had something to REALLY contribute to my posting! lol!!

I agree, in this country anyone(people or corporation) have the right to go where they please. They are trying but they will fail.

I have been asking that and getiting nothing in return

Very easy question to answer, actually. Boeing is moving a plant to SC because they have been in a fight with their labor over wages and benefits. Boeing has CUT wages, several times, over several years when things were lean, yet they STILL paid their managers big bonuses, as if the financial difficulties were not happening, in fact, the amount that they paid their managers was very close to what they took from the employees. They want to increase their profit margin, when they are making huge bux as it is.

What Boeing is doing is using the move to S.C. as Retaliation against the Union Workers, who have made the sacrifices to keep the company going, and trying to move to a different place where they would pay their workers less and give fewer benefits, for the same job, thus increasing how much they can pay their managers and owners. Now, this would be normal business if it were not for the anti-union busting laws that were put on the books long ago. The fact that they are moving/building a plant so very far away from where all their other plants are so that they do not have to honor their union CONTRACTS (remember, when it is signed it must, legally, be followed by both sides, or the one breaking the contract is breaking the law?) is clear evidence that they are doing it in retaliation, not just as a business move. If they guaranteed that they would keep the exact same pay rates with all the same benefits, then there would be little problem, but this is not the case.

On top of this, Boeing reducing wages for highly skilled labor not only brings down wages nationally, but do you really want to be flying in an airplane that was built by disgruntled, underpaid labor??

That is why there is such a hoorah about it...the Dems are upholding THE LAW, Boeing is trying to do something, which by it's signed agreements and contracts, is ILLEGAL. Considering how hard those on the right were complaining about ILLEGAL immigrants, saying that the LAW needed to be upheld, this should be a no-brainer.

your entire post is why the unions have to go, you actually believe it is your right to tell a business that employs you that they have to move to a place of your choosing , your arrogance and the unions is staggering.

No, BUSHWHACKER, the arrogance lies in corporations who think that they can pay people less and less over the years for the same job, instead of INCREASING wages and keeping up with the cost of living. The arrogance lies in corporate managers who actually produce nothing, that is ALL done at lower levels, and yet they expect to receive their million dollar plus bonuses for moving parts around on the table and seeing how much they can screw not only their customers, but their own employees too. Unions are the ONLY reason that we actually have a middle class, which I assume that you belong to, if it were not for organized labor there would be nothing but serfs and corporate masters, just what the Repub party is trying to turn us into presently.

It seems like you enjoy pushing the idea of following the LAW on people when they are doing something that you disagree with, yet think it is just fine to break it when it is something that you agree with, no matter HOW much harm either one does.

Your arrogance and lack of understanding on the basic economics is what is staggering.

c'monB honest with yourself, I make just enough to feed me and mine I am not middle class, what I am is a person who used to belong to LOCAL 636 , and I was apalled at the way the union treated it's members, if you don't keep up with your dues (extortion ) you lose your job, because the union says so, it doesn't matter how good of an employee you are, and I have sen what the unions do at strikes I watched a union rep tell us to punctur radiators in the parking lot of a Luckys in Cali. his reasoning , "If they know their cars will be damaged they won't shop at this store" now that's criminal, not to mention they make part time employees pay full dues but get no benefits.

lets play a game , lets say I start a widget factory, if I pay a livable wage to non-union workers That widget will cost me to produce about $1.20 , If I join the union and pay all the high wages demanded and all the other pay offs the union demands , then that widget now costs me $12.00 now who is going to pay that much for a widget ? unions had their day, now they are making it so no-one who has to have the union can make a product that anyone from here or abroad can afford.

BUSHWACKER, I have run into bad unions also, but you have to understand, many unions were infiltrated by the Company or Corporation owners so as to sabotage them by having the union members do such stupid things as yours told you to do. There is NO excuse for that kind of shenanigans, at all. but, at the same time, seeing as how Federal and State wages were set into place a long time ago, and have gone up with the cost of living, the wages of people in the private sector should have been going up too, however, since Reagan started his big wave of union busting back in the 80s (busting them from the inside was not going fast enough), wages in the private sector have been rather flat, with many people either making the same Number of dollars/hr, even tho they are worth less now than then, or actually had wages drop. Where business owners have HAD to bring in truly skilled labor they have been forced to increase wages or not find anyone who will take the wages offered. BUT, that all said, without the unions, there would never been an American Middle Class to begin with, or not much of one at all. It is true that too many unions have turned into a power structure that serves itself first, BUT, that means that the unions themselves need to be regulated as well, just like ANY power structure. It is not so much that power corrupts, but that power attracts the corruptible, and so, with the unions being a power structure, it has attracted it's own share of corruption. The mafias found out that the unions were an easy mark for them, and managed to take money from the union members, and also from the company execs for rolling over to the execs, the Teamsters were particularly bad about this. This is not to say that all unions are bad, but that we, the People, need to keep a close eye on ALL power structures, and implement changes in them to make sure that they are doing the jobs that we hire them to do. Corrupt officials of any stripe need to be removed and permanently banned from ever working in that field, or any other position of representation ever again.

On the basis of your cost example, Boeing should not be able to be building and selling their jets and other products, yet they are still one of the better priced-for-the quality products out there. I DO understand that some unions go overboard, but by and large, unions are there to make sure that the workers do not get shafted by management, which I have seen happen ALL too often as well. A good employer will often actually be able to pay good, living wages, in a safe work environment, and treat their employees like people, rather than treating them like serf, and if every company and corporation did that then we would not need the unions, but, how many companies like that do you really know of?? Jonathan (sp?) who has been posting here lately appears to be one of these good employers, who pays some of his workers more than he pays himself, knowing that those workers are what is making his business work at all. And I applaud him for being of that mindset, we truly need more employers like that, but, for the most part, business owners seem to think that they are little gods whose employees should be bowing at their feet for hiring them in the first place. Unions came about because that was the standard mentality of business owners in those days and they did not Care if their employees starved because they were not paid enough, or were killed by unsafe working conditions because there were always more people out there that needed work. Unions, for the most part, put a stop to that, or at the very least, made the Govt pass laws to the same effect. But, to just say that all unions are bad and should be abolished, at the same time calling for massive deregulation, is just putting the worker back into the hands of the unscrupulous employer and turns the working class into nothing more than unrepresented serfs.

Yes, there needs to be balance, AND regulation of not only businesses, but of unions also, but to just tar and feather all unions based on your own bad experiences with one does not work either. There are honest and good reasons for honest and good unions, and if all employers were angels, we would not need them. However, since that is not the case, we do still need them, but like I said before, we need to keep our eyes on them too!

Honest enough for you?

BHonest- Thank You for your very honest post, I have had discussions with union reps here on the vine and when I brought up any wrong doings done by the unions I was calld every name in the book, you are the first well mannered and honest union person I have conversed with. you have shown me that not all union members are thugs. Thank You!!

BUSHWACKER, actually, I am not union myself, but my Dad as when I was growing up, they even made him president of the local, and so I got to hear about a lot of it from the inside. Dad said that the company owners were the ones that really controlled the local, and that they put him in there as a 'fresh, honest face' and that he had no real power or ability to change things, and so at one particular address, went and told the workers exactly what was up, who it was that really controlled the union, and promptly resigned.

Its called the Dream Act because they are dreaming it will get passed.

That is funny, because the REPUBLICAN, Orrin Hatch, that actually came up with the idea along with Richard Durbin called it that!

It has only been reintroduced by the Dems.

So, let me get this straight: You're depending on a "young, energetic group" of unskilled laborers who have a demonstrated propensity to break the law and send most of their money back to Mexico to work and pay taxes to support your retirement???

I'm sorry. I had to go change my pants and get a paper towel to wipe the pee out of my chair from laughing so hard.

The DREAM Act (acronym for Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors)

Get a clue!!!

The majority of us will be receiving Social Security Retirement benefits very soon. According to sources, there are only 3 workers today paying for each retiree; it used to be a 5:1 ratio. The only way we are going to maintain the current ratio is through immigration reform; like the DREAM Act. . . . There is a true need to include this young, energetic group of people so that in ten years we can grow our economy by another $4 trillion dollars.

You're the one who said it. Not me. I can't help it that it sounds as stupid as it is when you read it back to yourself.

Miker, why would you assume that these people are unskilled laborers, or any different other than their ethnicity than any other person raised here in America?? If they have joined the military, they deserve citizenship, if they have managed to put themselves through college and gained skills, they deserve to be citizens, after all, it is not THEM who broke the law coming here, it was their parents. How would YOU like to be sent to a foreign nation, one that your folks came from, where you do not know the culture? And no, not all of these illegals are Mexican either. How would YOU like it if you were forever denied a driver's license just because your parents got too many speeding tickets and so obviously YOU are therefore a criminal? Your arguments sound about like that!

Also, the Act stipulates that the individual must never have been in legal troubles, be otherwise upstanding in their demeanor and have striven to do as good as they are able. There is a long list of requirements that they have to pass, it is NOT just handed out to all of them. get a clue and do some study before you open your mouth!