The Debt Ceiling “Dog and Pony Show” continues with no end in site. President Obama had a very strong speech yesterday laying out his agenda; again, and it is apparent that the GOP/TP is not remotely serious about the Debt Ceiling discussions at all. They are offering nothing and stalling the process betting on the total collapse of the economy to win back the White House. Cantor and Kyl proved this with their little public stunt with their pre-planned walk out of the meeting. President Obama pretty much has put everything on the table. He mentioned the DOD, Tax Reform, Entitlements, Spending Cuts, getting rid of subsidies for Big Oil and asks those who have benefited the most over the last 50 years to start paying their fair share. What is the GOP/TP stance, keep the record Tax Cuts for the Millionaires/Billionaires – in fact give them even more tax cuts, increase DOD spending (look at the recent Boeing fraud on America), keep the tax incentives for Big Business (including allowing them to hide profits in off shore accounts and farm jobs overseas). These guys (GOP/TP) are not for “Economic Reform” at all. It is all about “Stalling” and creating economic chaos. This is a “POWER” grab by the right. Look at what they are doing at the State Level – GO OHIO!

Spending Cuts to Non-Military Discretionary spending alone is not the answer. Tax Cuts for the 2% does not create and Jobs nor does it stimulate the economy – they have to go. This is the GOP/TP proposal; cut spending on programs that are primarily for the middle and low income class and give more record tax cuts to the 2% and increased DOD Spending. This will not work to get us out of this mess.

Repealing the Tax Cuts of the 2% alone will not get us out of this mess either.

What every economist (republican and democrat) of note is saying and has been saying is that the position (agenda) of President Obama is the correct one. We need “Spending Cuts” AND “Increased Revenues”. Until the GOP/TP gets real and starts talking about increasing revenues we are going nowhere fast. In fact the GOP/TP plan will make matters worse and put this country into default.

Wall Street is already making noise telling the GOP/TP to stop the politics and work out a deal.

Since president Obama’s speech yesterday the right wing pundits are still stuck on stupid and are still trying to make President Obama the scape goat for this mess. Not so fast see below:

http://www.cbpp.org/files/5-10-11bud.pdf

Tax Cuts, War Costs Do Lasting Harm to Budget Outlook

“Some lawmakers, pundits, and others continue to say that President George W. Bush’s policies did not drive the projected federal deficits of the coming decade — that, instead, it was the policies of President Obama and Congress in 2009 and 2010. But, the fact remains: the economic downturn, President Bush’s tax cuts and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq explain virtually the entire deficit over the next ten years”.

“The deficit for fiscal year 2009 — which began more than three months before President Obama’s inauguration — was $1.4 trillion and, at 10 percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), the largest deficit relative to the economy since the end of World War II. At $1.3 trillion and nearly 9 percent of GDP, the deficit in 2010 was only slightly lower. If current policies remain in place, deficits will likely resemble those figures in 2011 and hover near $1 trillion a year for the next decade”.

“The events and policies that pushed deficits to these high levels in the near term were, for the most part, not of President

Obama’s making. If not for the Bush tax cuts, the deficit-financed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the effects of the worst recession since the Great Depression (including the cost of policymakers’ actions to combat it), we would not be facing these huge deficits in the near term. By themselves, in fact, the Bush tax cuts and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan will account for almost half of the $20 trillion in debt that, under current policies, the nation will owe by 2019. The stimulus law and financial rescues will account for less than 10 percent of the debt at that time”.

The GOP/TP just will not accept the responsibility for creating this mess to begin with. Read the above analysis in detail and judge for yourself. The GOP/TP is lying through their teeth in blaming President Obama. Right now he is the only one who is doing anything to move this country forward. He is the only one that is putting everything on the table. The only thing the GOP/TP is doing is trying to stop him at every corner, no matter what damage is being done, that is their mission in life – Stop President Obama from getting reelected at all costs and the hell with the American People, we do not count in their global scheme of things. We just do not. Only Wall Street, Big Business and the Millionaires and Billionaires carry any weight with the right. PERIOD. But again after all they did buy their votes.

The new CBS Poll (for you poll dancers) claims that only 8% of the American People blame President Obama for the economy. That is about one in twelve blame President Obama. 26% blame the Bush Administration, 25% blame Wall Street, 11 % blame Congress. Finally people are starting to understand where the blame belongs for this mess. At the feet of the GOP/TP Party. And these are the same knuckle heads that if elected will adopt the very same Agenda that got us into this mess. Now that is INSANE.

In OHIO yesterday the people delivered 1,293,301 signatures to put the current “Collective Bargaining” fiasco on the ballet in November. Now the people of Ohio will vote on this, not the King of Ohio. They only needed about 250,000. It started in Wisconsin and is now becoming a National ground swell with recall elections etc.. The GOP/TP is exposed for what they are. And the AMERICAN PEOPLE do not like what they see.

ALL that matters

Obama's assessment: We have a prepubescent Congress

"They need to do their job," barked the president of Congressional trolls. If his daughters, 13 and 10 years of age, can get their homework done ahead of otherwise guaranteed disaster, then surely the grown men and women of high elected office can settle, on a timely basis, a debt-ceiling dispute that's been charging down the foreseen tracks for months.

Jesus, I pity him. Obama now has to publicly scold and even ridicule the infantile, recalcitrant yokels of the United States Congress, just to get them to do their bloody homework, for which they draw government paychecks.

On the one hand American voters have the pronounced macroeconomic dimwittedness of Jim Demint, Mitch McConnell, John Boehner, Eric Cantor and others, who have pooh-poohed projections of catastrophic ramifications of not raising the debt ceiling.

On the other hand Americans have the president of the United States having to plead the extraordinarily self-evident: that the debt ceiling is no "abstraction," and that "all the [negative economic] headwinds ... will get worse" if the ceiling is left unlifted. Plus, today the International Monetary Fund said in a report that "Failure to raise the debt ceiling 'soon enough,' along with too quick a cut in spending" poses a "severe shock" to the economy here and abroad.

The president says that, the IMF says that, virtually every economist with a human pulse says that, and still, the GOP obstructionists play games -- with dynamite.

It's a tribute to Obama's miraculous temperament that he doesn't explode more often.

http://pmcarpenter.blogs.com/p_m_carpenters_commentary/2011/06/obamas-assessment-we-have-a-prepubescent-congress.html

I so agree with this author.

I also ask have what actions have Republican looney tuns in Congress and the Grim Weeper done besides approve Leon Pantta and voting "Yes" to tax cuts for th rich and going on TV spewing nonsense about holding Obama accountable?

If Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and all other safety net payments may cease doesn't matter. ALL that matters is what Wall Street thinks.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln

Journalist(?) Mark Halperin calls President Obama a "d!ck" this morning on Morning Joe. Evidently Halperin still hasn't gotten over the fact that McCain/Palin lost. Which goes to show you what a d!ick he himself has always been. Not bright. Not professional. Not anything but a right wing backside kissing fake journalist. He always was. And quite despised by many in this country for his unprofessional reporting. One of the most unlikeable journalists on the air waves. So he fits in quite well on the panel with MJ, who is no better.

One of the worst, if not worst things to happen to this country was corporate media. Especially cable media. These cable people aren't made up of too many real journalists. They're made up mostly of out of work politicians or inside the beltway echo chamber social gathering pundits. That's all they are. They all agree on the damndest things that more often than not are so unimportant it's ridiculous. They're all drama kings and queens.

No thought to the American people. None. Yet look on line at their homes on the Cape or in DC. Look at how they live. They don't care about you or I. None of them do. They're only interested in making money for their bosses, and in return, for themselves. That's it. Same goes with Congress. Who can fill their pockets? Koch. Armey. Rove.

Per ThinkProgress:

Just last summer, Dr. Bachmann (Presidential contender Michele Bachmann's husband) explained his position on homosexuality while offering theoretical advice to parents concerned that one of their children was gay.

BACHMANN: We have to understand: barbarians need to be educated. They need to be disciplined.

(And for this little bit of advice, he receives thousands and thousands of dollars from the government. His wife, presidential contender Michele Bachmann agrees with him).

Rep. Mo Brooks (R, Alabama) At a town hall recently, Brooks told constituents that he would do anything to an "illegal immigrant" short of literally shooting them to get them out of the country.

As Texas faced some of the worst wildfires in its history and a severe drought crisis that has caused the federal government to declare the entire state a disaster area, its governor was schmoozing with well-heeled conservative donors in Vail, Colorado at a retreat organized by the right-wing industrialist Koch brothers. Gov. Rick Perry (R) left his state without notifying constituents or the press and dodged inquiries into his whereabouts.

Meanwhile, in Florida, days after declaring a state of emergency for his state's own climate crisis, Gov. Rick Scott (R) disappeared over the weekend, failing to disclose his whereabouts in his public schedule and refusing to respond to numerous press inquiries. Yesterday, Scott finally admitted he left the state without informing his constituents to attend the Koch summit.

_________________________________________________________

This is the kind of government we get when people don't vote. It's that simple. The fruit cakes are handed power to do whatever the hell they want. The last thing on their minds is your future. They are only looking out for their own pockets and futures.

2012 – VOTE. Become an organizer. Help get the vote out. Bring Nancy Pelosi back to the Speaker's position. She works hard. And she makes everybody else work hard.

She works for us. The only problem is the GOP doesn't like to read anything. Tough. They are complaining about illegals in this country? The illegals want to work. Unlike them.

The Republicans don't work. Won't work. But will collect their paychecks and perks. That we the taxpayers provide. Welfare kings and queens. And all of them are white. And feel entitled to do nothing.

And we let them get away with this?

2012. VOTE.

At his presser yesterday, Obama ranted on and on about "corporate jets" and taxing the people that own them - 6 times to be exact - but changing the tax provision, the very one Obama and the Democrats installed last year, would put $3 billion into the Treasury over a decade. This is the kind of leadership Obama brings, he's fighting battles that mean nothing, and not bothering to lead on the issues that are critical to be resolved for this country to succeed. Anyone who thought Barack Obama exhibited any kind of behavior, knowledge, style or leadership beyond the level of Community Organizer yesterday at his presser is just as out-to-lunch as our President is. Obama is still in the Rookie League of Politics, clueless and confused.

Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-29/jet-tax-break-cited-six-times-by-obama-would-cut-debt-by-about-3-billion.html

Stan Greenberg is a prominent Democratic pollster and consultant. He runs the polling firm Democracy Corps with James Carville, and is married to U.S. House Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-CT). His views on the economy and President Obama's reelection campaign in a Time article (June 29th, 2011) by Michael Scherer are interesting to say the least.

According to Scherer, when Greenberg used polling and focus groups to highlight the Obama Administration's progress on the economy, "...or blaming the economy on Republican mismanagement before 2008, the results were dismal, he (Greenberg) says. Voters did not want to hear it. They responded more positively to messages about long-term fixes like rebuilding the middle class and taking on China, or moving beyond the politics of blame."

Stan Greenberg can't have been pleased with the President's presser yesterday.

"Politics of blame"...?

You bet.

"Long-term fixes"...?

Not so much.

Feisty:

I think you answered your own question - kinda.

When has faith based ‘healing’ become an acceptable form of medical treatment covered by Medicare?

President Obama did a good job of letting the American People know who are the real culprits of this mess. A new poll shows less than one in ten people are blaming President Obama for this mess. 26% Bush and 21% blame Wall Street and only 11% blame Congress.

The GOP/TP is just stalling. American has to understand this is a stall. The GOP/TP is betting the farm on the collapse of the economy.

Speaking of lion's den, I see my post from yesterday zinging the Libs r Us loons was collapsed. So the leftist vigilantes are back to business as usual, continuing their mission to cleanse the planet of impure thoughts. These people have no shame.

Aww...too bad.

Lawrence O'Donnell last night on his Rewrite segment read an article that came out of Missouri about the state of today's Republicans. It left me numb.

That's journalism.

Bev:

Right on the money. President Obama continues to demonstrate he is the only adult in the room.

Pat:

I agree and have written on this before. It is not foreign countries that will take this country down. We will be destroyed from within. "Apathy" is a nation killer and right know many in this country have taken an overdose.

What the New GOP/TP has for an ideology is not compatible with this country. It will rot us out from the inside just as sure as any cancer will rot out the human body.

Yesterday, Scott finally admitted he left the state without informing his constituents to attend the Koch summit.Scot

Wonder why all the secretive posturing? If you're going to take KOCH CASH, the very least Scott could do is put on his MAN PANTS & OWN IT!

GREAT POST Pat!

PS: Mark Halperin is a right wing AHole always has been, always will be!

Beverly, great article. Thank you.

US Navy & Feisty - thanks to you as well. I'm literally sick to death of what we in this country allow from Congress. They have to go. We need an Adam Green type activist in every single state next year to throw these bastards out. An activist from within their own states, instead of outsiders.

This is our last chance to change course. These Republicans are no damn good.

I watch Meet The Press every week and the NBC evening news and I follow First Read. I don't see alot of Democratic leaders vigorously pushing back against Republicans. The clip they played last night of the President "chiding" Congress showed the President joking about his kids getting their homework done - hardly a fiery rebuke of Congress.

I agree with Senate Democrats, the President needs to confront Republicans in the House more forcefully and loudly. Also, Democratic leaders need to take the gloves off and pound these guys back, I mean, Christie, the great Hope of the Republican Party is upside down in the approval polls. Voters gave these Republicans a chance in 2010 and are already disenchanted. The Democrats are being far too mild in pushing back. Meanwhile, Bachmann and her ilk are out there every day talking trash about the President, Rove is out there spreading his lies, FOX promotes the Republicans 24/7, I want Democratic leaders to push back and push back hard.

I get so tired of the right wing argument to have smaller government, cut spending and the American People have spoken. It’s all bull crap. First of all the United State is not a country that can operate with small government.

We need a big government to manage the events going on here in our country while being involved in the events around the world that can affect us all. The problem we have is that we have to manage big government a heck of a lot better then we are currently doing so now, and stop the perks to the special interest.

As I said before, it was proven by FDR that we have to spend money within our country for growth. So, where do you cut spending? To listen to the right it is social programs and cut taxes. Well, again more bull crap. We have the super rich and the dirt poor, with the middle class being pushed to the category of the dirt poor and well the rich get richer, with their perks and level low taxes they pay. Remember budget cuts mean job cuts.

So, cut spending on the rich and please bring back the Clinton era take levels and quit playing these games. Then do away with the tax subsidies that the tax payers give big oil and companies that ship jobs overseas in which no Republican in the house is willing to do.

As we progress towards the 2012 elections, Progressives need to keep hammering the Republicans, over their stands to make life easy for the rich and the policies that hurt the working class.

Remember, TAX, BABY TAX.

Lest there be any doubt that Republicans are damaging the economy here's the opinion of John McCain economic adviser Mark Zandi on what happens if the GOPTP continues to play games with the debt ceiling;

Mark Zandi, a prominent economic forecaster, says the US economy will gather steam in the second six months of 2011 – unless Congress fails to raise the government debt limit. In that case, “we go into recession, and my forecast would be blown out of the water,” he said Tuesday at a Monitor-hosted breakfast for reporters.

The chief economist of Moody’s Analytics, Dr. Zandi expects economic output to be growing at about a 4 percent rate by the end of 2011, versus 1.9 percent in the first three months of the year. “Weights on the economy are lifting,” he said, referring to diminishing effects of higher oil and food prices, as well as the impact of the Japanese tsunami on auto production.

Zandi remains wary of the return of high gas prices, he says, and thinks unemployment will fall slowly, but he remains cautiously optimistic about the overall economic recovery.

But Zandi's relatively upbeat outlook would change abruptly if Congress and the Obama administration fail to agree on a plan to raise the federal debt ceiling by August 2, requiring the government to dramatically curtail operations.

“If we get to August 2 and there is no debt ceiling limit, and there has to be significant spending cuts – even if Congress and the administration reverse themselves days later, I think the damage will have been serious, and we probably would be thrown into a recession,” Zandi said.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/monitor_breakfast/2011/0628/Top-economist-Raise-the-debt-ceiling-or-blow-the-recovery-out-of-the-water?cmpid=ema%3Anws%3ANjQxOTk3NTE1NQS2

We know that Wall Street both looks ahead and hedges their bets. It's hard not to conclude they're making a significant bet that Republicans will destroy the recovery in their lust for political domination.

"These people have no shame"

Yep, that describes the GOP/TP to a tee. They just continue to spit out lies and when caught it is somebody else fault or they deny it or he!!, they ignore it and go on a talking point rant (Bachmann).

The GOP/TP is pissing in the face of America and daring them to do something about it. They have no new ideas and lied about what they promised America in the last election.

Where are the plans for creating jobs and stimulating the economy? You promised us in 2010 this was a major goal, instead we got the "uterus" police.

Tell us one thing the GOP/TP Party has done in the last 2 years plus to move this country forward. NAME ONE THING that you have done for America to help us out of this mess.

job1:

Great post and right on the money. Kudos.

Good morning, Bev

You are correct. I hoping that the President continues to call out these so called Republicans for their bad policies that do nothing but hurt the working class.

Amy: the President needs to confront Republicans in the House more forcefully and loudly.

Maybe Obama can do so when he announces his latest attempt at a FY2012 budget, or his plan to reform Medicare/Medicaid. Because if he just wants to talk about corporate jets, or his kids homework, or vacations, he's just wasting everyones time.

John B:

I agree 100%. This is exactly what the New GOP/TP is betting the farm on, the collapse of our economy. They will be the culprits that will cause this and then try to blame President Obama. I do not think the American people are falling for it.

They GOP/TP is overreaching on this and the American people now know it. Look at Ohio, the people are mad. They are tired of the right wing lies and stalling. They are tired of their constant hypocrisy from the politicians. They argued against the stimulus but took the money and some even asked for more. They misused the funds to cover their own mismanagement and the list of hypocrisy grows every day.

They have been exposed for what they are and now they are mad.

Marcus claims to have a PHD in clinical psychology from Union Graduate School which offers its degrees via an online services. The really interesting FACT is they do not offer a PHD in clinical psychology see below:

To be fair, when did he get his PhD? It's possible they discontinued the program, although I'm inclined to doubt it. All he has to do is produce the long form of his diploma... ; )

So Does Anyone Anymore NOT Understand How we Got Into this Greek Like Budget Deficit Mess(Besides The Perpetual In Denial Republicans):

Bush the great Decider and the Republicans squandered A large part of this countries wealth with:

1) His 2 war that cost a trillian dollars with the scantiest of hersey evidence((Just Added to the Debt)
2) His prescription drug benefits that we couldnt afford and (Just Added to the Debt)
3) His tax cuts for the rich that we couldnt afford and ((Just Added to the Debt)
4) HIs Letting 2/3 of largest corporations that make 10s to 100s of Billions pay no taxes thru outsourcing of our jobs. (Billions of Dollars Not Collect Because People are out of Work) ((Just Added to the Debt)

Not to Mention that when you put so many people out of work some of them are going to go on foodstamps welfare, medicaid, etc to support their families. Then you compain about it. Saying its all their fault because they Where Too "Lazy" to have a job or to Find a Job Because Its been Outsourced To Another Country.

Why wer'ent the Republicans screeming Bloody Murder when Bush was laying the seeds to Trillions of Dollars In budget deficits? Remember Dick "Deficits dont matter" Cheney

Ill tell you why? Because The Republicans only care about their Greedy selves & Hell with country and everyone else.

And how will we pay for this now? With YOUR social security \ medicare money, of course!(That You paid Taxes Into and Now the Goverment wants to tell us its an "Entitlement" And huge national debts for our children and grand children as for as the eyes can see. Wake up people.youve where Had!

The Great Decider Decided all right. He decided to scr@w us and this country !!!

Keep electing Republicans into the White house and voting for the Rich and expect the same lame results !! !

Ps (Just Wait For the Denyiers Appologist and the Propagandizers of stay on the message Republicans. They should be attacking me real soon)...

But You cant fool the people. Everyone Knows Conservatives buried us in this crisis and you know it. All the policy's of the previous administration(Bush) put us all at risk. Why ??? do all conservatives close their eye's to that little (not) pearl of fact?

Again I say:

Why wer'ent the Republicans( & The Tea Party & Rick Santelli) screeming Bloody Murder when Bush was laying the seeds to Trillions of Dollars In budget deficits? Remember Dick "Deficits dont matter" Cheney

Ill tell you why? Because The Republicans Ony Care About Their Greedy Selves And To Hell With Everyone Else And This Country ! ! !

If that isnt enough look at the Ryan Medicare Plan or should I say......

Welcome Seniors & Everyone Else To The New Republican Death Panels... Where we let private insurance companies decide whats best for their bottom line...either by denying any expensive treatement until the patient dies of their illnes or jacking the premiums so high to get the same effect. INSTEAD DECIDING WHATS GOOD FOR THE PATIENTS AND THEIR FAMILIES INTEREST.

Either way kiss your Golden Years GoodBye Seniors that you paid into and worked all your life for and replace them with Anxiety and Worries about the financial problems your going to have when your at the most vulnerable times in your life.

Who will benefit from this: The usual Republican suspects of course:
1)The rich with thier lower tax cuts
2)Big Business specifically Big insurance companies that can charge astronomical rates or refuse treatement.

Why Dont You Just Die ! ! ! (Its the best thing for the bottom line)

Message to the gop/tea-bag,con-serv-ah-nothin congress:WHERE'S THE JOBS AT?...The gop/tea-bags want the U.S. to fail....Well it's not going to work this time..(thanks to the gop gov's & their hate filled corporate greed towards the working man & woman in battle ground states,which will go President Obama's way In 2012.......CHECKMATE!)..........................Obama/Biden 2012

Mark Halperin is correct -- Obama is acting like a dick -- always has.always will.

To Pat from Boston:

BRAVO! Well said and sad but true . . . the lack of real news in this country is a major factor in our current sad state of affairs.

WE THE PEOPLE need to educate ourselves on the issues before it is too late.

Navy,

But, the fact remains: the economic downturn, President Bush’s tax cuts and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq explain virtually the entire deficit over the next ten years”.

Revenue for 2007 was 18.5% of GDP - Higher than the average for the last 70 years.

How do you blame above average revenue for the downturn? I know ........ you got nothing.

The 2 wars?

Bush spent $760 billion over 8 years ....... Obama is borrowing more than twice that ...... this year alone!

Bush's averaged annual cost of the wars was $95 billion ........ Obama's is $160 billion.

If not for the Bush tax cuts, the deficit-financed wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the effects of the worst recession since the Great Depression (including the cost of policymakers’ actions to combat it), we would not be facing these huge deficits in the near term.

Funny that the dolts never mention the biggest number to Bush's ledger was TARP. Also pretty funny, that whether you are a fan or not of TARP, the recession was officially over by June 2009 ..... 6 months into the Obama regime and long before any action he took had time to effect anything. We have officially been in a recovery for the last 2 years. Quantifiably the worst in the last 70 years.

So how did Obama save us again?

Still trying to blame Bush? And you guys call Obama an adult?

Oh well, at least you will never be confused with being adult.

@drew -- Wow you sure can type fast!!!!!

We do not need a government that fixes everything for us! Period! Mr. Obama's campaign speech yesterday, was at best mildly amusing! Im surely going to hurry and paint my jet before the taxes go up! The administration will go down in history with its own name "The Gimme Gimme Gang"

As a Progressive, I was of course disappointed in Pres. Obama's speech yesterday. He never goes far enough in calling out and standing up to the do-nothings in the House and the Senate. They get in his face everyday, in the rudest and nastiest ways possible. I remember early in his first year in office, he said something like this: "You must push me for the right changes", so subtle, many didn't get it. We all need to push him much harder, and much louder for him to stand up and do real battle for us. It's for his own good! The old, the squeaky wheel, gets the oil. We need to scream in his ear. Yes, I will still vote for him, as the alternative is unthinkable, but I will continue to call him out, write, email, and shout on street corners if I must. There is too much to do and too much to lose, if we don't.

My goodness, when did Media Matters start sending out their talking heads to post up talking points carefully picked by only the most left leaning individuals?

A little dose of reality will show people that both sides are playing a game with our futures. Democrats and Republicans in our government care about 1 thing only. They want to keep power. If they cared about the people, they wouldn't be talking heads of their parties who bash the opposing views. Instead they would honestly work with opposing views and get things done. The average Republican and average Democrat want the same thing. They want society to prosper.

The problem we face is career politicians who have special interest groups write up their bills, and then they stand behind them and say things like, "We need to pass the bill so we can find out what is in it." There isn't any more proof than that statement that the people in congress don't have our interests in mind.

I am loving all the work that bob is doing to try to convince us that President Bush didn't leave President Obama a turd sandwich. bob thinks that he can make his case with some GDP numbers an stats. bob thinks we all have amnesia and he can spin us to believe that really, everything was just fine, fine, fine before President Obama was elected. Good luck with that bob. Seriously.

Pat, MA and anyone else interested in the truth:

The piece to which Pat referred is from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. It was an editorial that describes the madness into which the Republican Party has descended. Here's the link courtesy of Lawrence O'Donnell: http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinion/columns/the-platform/article_b477e0fb-aab4-5d8e-90fe-c42826da31dd.html

Mr. O'Donnell, like Rachel Maddow and Chris Matthews, is an excellent journalist. All present opinions, but that does not mean they are not journalists. The fiction of the unbiased reporter/journalist is just that - a fiction. All of them present facts. Derisively referring to Chris Matthews' remark about the tingle, does not make Matthews any less accurate. The juvenile nonsense of calling Rachel Maddow, Rachel Madcow, does not diminish her one iota. Indeed, if the best rebuttal to fact is calling someone a name, it is the name callers who are diminished.

This editorial is a must read. There is one point however with which I disagree. The editorial says, "Today we have the spectacle of smart, patriotic men and women putting their brains and integrity on ice to please a party dominated by anti-intellectual social Darwinists and the plutocrats who finance and mislead them."

The truth is this, "....smart, patriotic men and women" never put their brains and integrity on ice. One does not simply turn integrity on and off. People with integrity do NOT do that. No, the Republican Party is controlled today by people who are utterly devoid of integrity.

The debacle, the horrible joke, the towering hypocrite named Michelle Bachmann provides a perfect example. She has trashed government involvement in our lives. Yet at virtually every turn she has somehow managed to take FROM that government. There is no problem with the fact that her husband receives funds from Medicaid. Medicaid has a valid purpose. The problem is that Bachmann lies about it. She says they can't discriminate between patients based on their method of payment. That is a lie. Medicaid is a state-administered program and is quite different from Medicare.

If discrimination is a problem, how is it not an issue that somehow the Bachmann's can discriminate between "Christian" treatment and its alternative, which is presumably un-Christian treatment?

The model for Christianity, a fellow named Jesus, healed people for free. He even raised them from the dead - for nothing. (Now, that's if you believe that stuff.) The Bachmann's say they believe that stuff. Good for Jesus, bad for the Bachmann's. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...." Good enough for Jesus, bad for the Bachmann's. "Love thy neighbor...." Good enough for Jesus, bad for the Bachmann's. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Good enough for Jesus, bad for the Bachmann's.

Read the editorial...please. We have a number of divides in our political world. There are genuine differences between the liberal mind and the conservative mind. Those, we can deal with. The division with which we must be truly concerned is between the group characterized by rank stupidity and wanton ignorance and those who are guided by fact.

@Nashville -- ok, he was left with a turd sandwich. But don't tell me the highly educated, politically astute, extremely experienced, well versed & informed candidate Barack Hussein Obama did not know that when he was making all of his campaign promises. "Well it was worse than what I thought" is a dog that don't hunt.

If you repeatedly go to your boss to ask for a smaller paycheck until you cannot pay your bills -- do you have a spending problem or a revenue problem?

That is what 'tax cuts' are - the governement asking for a smaller paycheck. Most reasonable adults would agree that asking for a pay cut is a stupid thing to do.

I am loving all the work that bob is doing to try to convince us that President Bush didn't leave President Obama a turd sandwich. bob thinks that he can make his case with some GDP numbers an stats. bob thinks we all have amnesia and he can spin us to believe that really, everything was just fine, fine, fine before President Obama was elected. Good luck with that bob. Seriously.

He may have left a turd sandwich but what has this Administration done with it?

Afghanistan ..... Escalated

Medicare D ...... Expanded

Bush Tax Cuts ..... Extended

Libya ..... Kinetic Action Initiated

Obamacare ...... Waived (until after the 2012 election)

Mark Halperin is an annoyingly flippant, quasi journalist. I used to read The Note back in the Bush days, until I couldn't take Halperin's pro-Bush administration bias, dressed up in cute-sy "insider" verbiage. What a jerk.

drew-3261464

So Does Anyone Anymore NOT Understand How we Got Into this Greek Like Budget Deficit Mess(Besides The Perpetual In Denial Republicans):

Bush the great Decider and the Republicans squandered A large part of this countries wealth with:

1) His 2 war that cost a trillian dollars with the scantiest of hersey evidence((Just Added to the Debt)
2) His prescription drug benefits that we couldnt afford and (Just Added to the Debt)
3) His tax cuts for the rich that we couldnt afford and ((Just Added to the Debt)
4) HIs Letting 2/3 of largest corporations that make 10s to 100s of Billions pay no taxes thru outsourcing of our jobs. (Billions of Dollars Not Collect Because People are out of Work) ((Just Added to the Debt)

Wow...what an uninformed post.

For one thing, TARP and ARRA and other bailouts cost almost as much as the wars. I also noticed that you didn't bring up Libya. If this was really an honest assessment rather than just a Bush bash, you would be critical of the spending in Libya while we are in this financial mess.

Secondly, you do know that Medicare D is self-funding don't you?

The tax cuts were for everyone and by no means did the tax cuts put us in this position. Government overspending did and Obama has not only continued to overspend, but has increased government spending dramatically.

On your 4th point I do agree, Bush failed to overturn Clinton's free trade agreements. But that wasn't Bush that outsourced all or labor and manufacturing...that was a direct result of the WTO and NAFTA treaties that Clinton mistakenly thought would allow US firms to sell their products overseas.

The government is too big, and it spends too much. How about we let those that want the government to run everything pay for it? Oh, wait, those socialists expect anyone that makes money to pay their way.

The level of irresponsibility in those that vote democrat is amazing. Can't pay taxes, don't want to insure themselves, can't even get a friggin ID card to vote??? But they want the government to educate their kids, pay their bills, give them food, pay for their healthcare, give them a cellphone, etc etc etc.

Well, if this liberal circle jerk is just about done, can we have a little intellectual honesty and common sense for a moment?

Politicians are the cause of this economic mess we are in - not republicans, not democrats, not Bush, not Obama - all of them. Each side is beholden to their own special interests, neither side wants to do anything to jeapardize their chances for re-election and the citizenry is caught in the middle.

In your zeal to point fingers and blame everything on "the other guy" you have forgotten your critical thinking skills - pretty pathetic...

"Check out this statement from GOP Sen. Jim DeMint: “Increasing the rates on the top earners in our economy will hurt investment, job creation and economic growth. Higher marginal rates reduce incentives to work and expand businesses.”"

This is the typical party line. How many jobs have Big Business created with their renewed tax breaks? How much less tax revenue was accrued by those tax breaks? Why are we in such debt? Lack of tax revenue. More jobs creation, more taxes paid by both workers and Big Business will decrease the debt.

NL: If you repeatedly go to your boss to ask for a smaller paycheck until you cannot pay your bills -- do you have a spending problem or a revenue problem?

Sounds like you have a personal problem.

Pat,

And what where the Dem leaders doing at the time of all these disasters you mention in your first post? Taking naked photos of themself, Sailing there yacht to a different state, or maybe not claiming some of their income from out of country property. In no way am I saying repubs aren't or weren't doing the same thing at the same time but you,fiesty,and navy never see any corruption in your own party.

The 2 wars that every one says bankrupt this country has cost less than Obama being in office(monetary only you can't put a price on human life until HCR takes over). He has add more to the debt with all the failed stimulus,shovel ready,cash for clunkers, and HCR. Second the big mess we are in that is all Bush's fault started from the deregulation of the the banks in 93. Who was president? While I agree Bush should of stepped in and did something about it you Dems forgot the time your party was the party of "NO" was not that long ago and is starting to come around again. You party never wanted to spend on upgrading humvees and other military vechiles but will shell out for othe worthless causes. Take a look at Greece socialism only works for so long. Not mention they are Obama's tax cuts now he extended them so give him the credit.

Ben:

You and I both know that you can't turn around a decade full of turd sandwiches in less than 3 years.

You like to make the conversation about President Obama, when really the problem is a decade of failed policies that did not do what you folks said they would do. Kind of like the "deficits don't matter" lie. And the "oil revenues from Iraq will pay for it" lie. And the "tax cuts create jobs" lie.

So you keep trying to focus on the President, I will keep focusing on the fact that the same folks who are complaining have NO IDEA how to address the problems that THEY CREATED. And to add insult to injury, the prescription you are offering? Same crap that didn't work the first time.

I can always count on Alan,NJ to find a way to blame President Obama for not biting the turd sandwich right. Great analysis Alan.

But what about Obama? But what about Obama? But what about Obama?

Congress? They aren't responsible to do their jobs, Obama is.

Bush? He is not responsible for the turd he laid, Obama is.

Solutions? Only person on Earth who can do anything at all is Obama, Obama, Obama.

Job promises the GOP made at midterms? Obama's fault they haven't done a damn thing.

Not a single new idea. Not an ounce of personal reponsibility. Just whining, blame shifting, and lies.

Hey Nash,

Sorry, but I have a busy morning ......

I will respond in the morning ..... you will be suprised.

Same Bat (sh!t crazy) time - same Bat (sh!t crazy) channel.

See ya

@Nashville -- Again I point out that the standards the left lift the prez to and all the campaign promises he made, hope, change, etc. -- he should have known and if he didn't he was duping (and still is duping) his followers by saying everything he would do "immediately." You and I both know that. We are now entering into another decade of failed policies from this administration that could put the final nail in the coffin of this great nation. If the dems let the previous administration go without obstruction, they they are complacent. If a minority in Congress is accused of being the party of "No" -- and I say thankfully so -- then why didn't the dems do the same thing????? Was it for the good of the country?

There are also many different proposals out there on both sides of the aisle that are worth looking at. But no one wants to discuss them. Today, for instance, it's a shame that for one of the few times I belief Navy said some insightful things along with a few others, she won't engage in conversation about them. The politicians act like children and the posters on here do as well.

Also pointing out the same things on here is like preaching to the choir and to people who don't care and agree. Nobody but us reads this crap LOL.

Not a single new idea. Not an ounce of personal reponsibility. Just whining, blame shifting, and lies.

___________________________________________

Yeah, that's what I thought of Barry's press conference yesterday, too.

I can always count on Alan,NJ to find a way to blame President Obama for not biting the turd sandwich right. Great analysis Alan.

You're right Nash. Let's change the constitution, impeach Obama, and re-install GWB as President. Then you can run against him again in 2012. Last time I looked Obama was still the guy in charge. Do I think he could have cleaned up the mess from 2008 in 3 years no. Do I think things are moving in right direction? Hell No. Is Bush responsible for the turds he laid (Iraq anyone). Hell Yes. But the policies I noted were all decisions by this Administration.

Bush DID NOT

...send 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan

...expand Medicare D to close the donut hole to the advantage of big Pharma

...extend the tax rates for the top 2% while specifically campaigning against them

...start bombing Libya

....produce a 1200 page HCR bill which apparently is missing 80% of the law as the Secretary of HHS is responsible for writing the actual regulations.

I thought the last Administration (43) was pretty awful but right now this one (44) is giving them a run for their money.

It's been 10 years (going 11) of incompetence.

JoAnnaSmith1

Amy: the President needs to confront Republicans in the House more forcefully and loudly.

Maybe Obama can do so when he announces his latest attempt at a FY2012 budget, or his plan to reform Medicare/Medicaid. Because if he just wants to talk about corporate jets, or his kids homework, or vacations, he's just wasting everyones time.

Just like the “do nothing" T-baggers, Eric Cantor, and Majority House Speaker John Boehnor in the House of Representatives have been a waste of time; Lady Sniff.

@Ben-636050

Mark Halperin is correct -- Obama is acting like a dick -- always has.always will.

You don’t refer to the President of The United States as a part of the male lower anatomy. You don’t know how glad I am the MSNBC network suspended him.

Nash:

I am loving all the work that bob is doing to try to convince us that President Bush didn't leave President Obama a turd sandwich. bob thinks that he can make his case with some GDP numbers an stats. bob thinks we all have amnesia and he can spin us to believe that really, everything was just fine, fine, fine before President Obama was elected. Good luck with that bob. Seriously.

I agree 100%. All he every does is slice and dice facts to try and prove his false agenda. He is wrong more than he is right and has been called out on the same lies before. They never change with him. He has no new ideas and he just keeps repeating the same old tired debunked crap from last time. He thinks it makes him important, I think it makes him not relevant in any intelligent discourse and that is why I have him on ignore. Life is so much easier without his noise and distractions.

Nash, you posts are right on the money. Hard to argue against the truth but they are persistent. The problem is people are starting to notice the same old sh!t that has been debunked once, twice, three times etc for what it is. Simply a person that is brainwashed and does not think for himself. Just repeats what he is told to do. He never disproves anything and his assumptions are not reality but he tries to make them work anyway.

Figures do not lie buy liars figure. You can manipulate any set of numbers to prove any number of things. Te bottom line is that all the major economist regardless of political affiliation now say the Bush Administration left this country in a mess. About 50% of the current deficit is directly related to the Bush failure.

He lives in a dream world.

Please allow me to be a practical observer here.

Firstly, Congress has failed us- BOTH parties. When the Republicans had control the last go round they spent more, when the Democrats had control they spent more, and now that it's split they are spending more. Just stop with that infantile bickering about whom gave whom what and who started it. All of you- take a time out and breathe a bit. The REALITY is that our government is spending so much of our now and future money that we will eventually default. In case you haven't heard Moody's, etc. are seriously considering dropping our bond rating from "AAA"(best). In- at best- 2-3 years we'll be significantly lower rated equaling much higher borrowing rates. To put that simply for you, To borrow $100 now we may be promising to pay it back at 2-3% interest. When the rating changes it may go to 4-6 or even 7%. Not much? Well, when you are talking about TRILLIONS of dollars it adds up to a lot. So, we'll have to spend much more to pay for our loans- which will (if we intend to pay those loans back) end up coming out of everyone's pockets in the form of higher taxes.

Secondly, it's very bad economic policy to be building bigger programs and hiring people when you aren't taking as much in. While it may be some people's goal to have the government control healthcare, education, etc. it certainly is not the time to do it. The federal government has a painful history of underestimating the actual costs of programs. I'm sorry, but adding 1/3 or more of the total cost in errors is not an acceptable "oops". They aren't up to the task of getting it right from the get-go so let's not do it now.

Thirdly, the federal government has no actual interest in reforming their existing programs (because it will cost them votes). The reality is that Social Security, Medicare, and Medicade are failing miserably and will completely fail without major reforms now. It's not going to be taken well to tell someone that we just can't continue like this, but the fact is that something would be taken a lot better than coming along another day and having nothing to offer at all.

Fourth item, job creation. Simply put- you can't create jobs while increasing the costs of doing business in a bad economy. If the federal government feels that it's good policy to add additional regulations, taxes and costs to businesses and they are shocked that no one is creating more jobs, then they don't get how regular people run businesses. Why are they surprised when small/middle sized businesses (the core of job creation) aren't creating more jobs when they are having a harder time keeping their doors open?

Item Five, stimulus and quantitative easing. Well, the stimulus was originally intended to save businesses from failure and encouraging some to grow (IE- Private Jet companies got stimulus to employ more people and tax breaks for the sales of those planes to keep sales going. Now that the unemployment rate is still as high as it was before stimulus, the new method is to apply new taxes on owning private jets. That will likely turn into less orders for new planes...... you get the point). Quantitative easing was started to increase the flow of money in the economy (make it easier to get money and have more of it trading hands). Well, we've come to realize that diluting the money's value by having "more" of it didn't really get us very far. We've had QE #1, QE #2, and are talking about QE #3. This will just make it that muche more expensive to pay back the loans and do business.

So, where will all of this get us- Not paying loans = Default. Higher taxes (on the 53% of remaining taxpayers and businesses) = Less money for people to spend beyond their minimal requirements. Lack of extra money flowing through the economy = Less sales to small businesses. Less sales = less profits. Less profits = less hiring. Higher taxes and more regulations = less money to do business = less hiring. Less value of our currency = higher cost of doing business. Loss in bond rating = higher costs for borrowing money and furthher yet higher costs of doing business.

Get over the political party BS and get a grip on the problem!

It's time to stop trying to convince the republican morons that they are wrong. They are blindly following. People like that will not think on their own and cannot objectively process the crap that the republicans feed them. Haven't you noticed that republicans attack people, not issues?

We, as progessives need to back our elected democratic representitives and let them know to hold their ground on tax increases and protecting social secuity, medicare and medicaid. We can not remain silent. We have all the facts we need already. We just need to push our elected officials a bit.

Remember the turnout for the 2008 elections? It was huge. Why? We undertood that we could not let republicans finish us off. That has not changed. It's only gotten worse. Republicans have now come out of the closet and let us know how distainfull the American middle class is to them.

If we keep our fires going, we can repeat 2008 for the President and especially Congress.

Sweet, the FR libs are trying to make a stand against the right. Loved the zandi slant, wasn't he the one that applied a multiplier of 1.64 to unemployment benefits? If that was actually true then that same multiplier should be in effect for anyone spending money within the US. btw - a multiplier of 1.64 should have been quite an economic stimulas.

Watched charlie rose last night in a followup interview with senator tom coburn, you all know him, part of the gang of 6 who wasn't afraid to put revenue generation on the table but who walked away when the democrats were unwilling to put everything on the table as well. Rather interesting interview just go to charlie rose.com and select.

Former senator alan simpson had some interesting comments on the upcoming debt crises and a former CBO director had his own take on what obamas press conference accomplished.

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/70166506/

http://www.bloomberg.com/video/71653348/

Interesting that many FR libs are still on the kick of the blame game. Makes one wonder on the intelligence of the democrats in allowing such events to happen. lmao!

bob: While I am flattered that you would take time out of your life to write something to useless little me, I would advise not wasting our collective time.

Alan: I am attempting to get to some POLICIES that will actually work. I am completely tired of WHINING and CARPING from "both sides". How about we just face the reality of the crappy situation we all find our selves in and come up with some REALITY BASED solutions. Your listing out your grievances doesn't really help much. I am not trying to BLAME BUSH, I am trying to say we need some NEW POLICIES becasue the OLD ONES did not WORK. And in response I get "Obama blah blah blah" when this ain't about OBAMA. When do we get to the part where someone suggests a SOLUTION that can actually be applied in the MODERN WORLD with our ACTUAL CONGRESS, not the theories they read in poli sci class.

Feisty - I have to tell you, I am detecting a Tsunami of discontent with Obama amongst these blogs and in the media lately

Absolutely. As the President himself said, it's time for the leaders to lead, and he should include himself in that statement. However, that doesn't mean the GOP in Congress aren't facing an even bigger wave. It just means more people are finally getting fed up with BOTH parties (took you all long enough). And, no, tax cuts for multinational corporations and the ultra-rich will NOT produce jobs, so put a cork in that one. We need measures that encourage and assist small to medium businesses, not international mega-corporations.

Those, we can deal with. The division with which we must be truly concerned is between the group characterized by rank stupidity and wanton ignorance and those who are guided by fact.

Excellent analysis David; particularly Glenn Beck students in Beckistan (so glad his strange trip @ FOX NOISE CULMINATES).

Is Glenn Beck a dog or is he a closet bisexual? What about all those onomatopoeic buzz of Beck barking like a dog?

Glenn Beck Barks Like A Dog To Criticize Stimulus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaWlUIULE3g

http://www.sharethisurlaboutglennbeck.com/2011/06/is-glenn-beck-dog-or-is-he-closet.html

Next person to go should be the unrepentant LIAR, Hannity. I'm really tired of the low information voter being Hannitized.

The reason it is 'Bush's fault' is because the Congressmen that acted in a fiscally stupid manner are still there. Those same Congressmen are obstructing progess in solving problems they created, in order to continue the same fiscally stupid policies created during President Bush's administration. President Bush's fiscal policies are being continued in Congress today and they are just as fiscally unsound as they were 8 years ago.

Remove the obstructionist from Congress and there will no longer be a need to 'blame Bush'.

Alan: I am attempting to get to some POLICIES that will actually work. I am completely tired of WHINING and CARPING from "both sides". How about we just face the reality of the crappy situation we all find our selves in and come up with some REALITY BASED solutions. Your listing out your grievances doesn't really help much. I am not trying to BLAME BUSH, I am trying to say we need some NEW POLICIES becasue the OLD ONES did not WORK. And in response I get "Obama blah blah blah" when this ain't about OBAMA. When do we get to the part where someone suggests a SOLUTION that can actually be applied in the MODERN WORLD with our ACTUAL CONGRESS, not the theories they read in poli sci class.

I agree. The demand side theory (Stimulus) and the supply side theory (Tax Cuts), have both been shown to be ineffective. My solution is to aim to balance the budget as soon as possible and allow the business cycle to work itself out, as it's pretty obvious that neither theory has altered it in any meaningful way.

I would start with the Ryan tax plan as a starting point with the objective of removing as many deductions as possible. An obvious target would be to limit the home mortgage deduction to a range of 250K - 500K. If you can afford a house more than that then you don't need a tax deduction for it. (It will suck here in the NE but so be it). It will catch more upper middle class than lower or working class. It also an unfair deduction at this point given that more people are becoming renters. By removing more deductions then federal rates can be reduced but with the objective of increasing revenue. (using the President as an example, he paid around 27% on 1.7M due to deductions. That should be pushed up to at least 30%). Business tax rates/code should be altered the same way. Remove subsidies for oil, gas, ethanol and electric vehicles and allow the market to decide winners not the government.

Medicare and SS will have to be reformed because structurally they are sustainable. I would aim to move to a defined contribution system because that stops the generational wealth transfer which I think is unfair, and it will stop politicians from spending any surplus and from promising future benefits that they are not responsible for.

Ms Wasserman says its Mr. Obama's and no one else! Why cant the people who live in that space also own it!

You might say Halperin was set up. Here is the transcript from the NY Daily News:

To the shock of hosts Joe Scarborough and Mike Brzezinski, Halperin called the president a "d---" while offering up his opinion on President Obama's performance at his press conference on Wednesday.

Here's how it went down:

Halperin: "Do we have the seven-second delay today? I want to characterize how I thought the President behaved?"

Brzezinski: "We have it. [To producer] We can use it, right?"

Scarborough: "Yeah, sure, come one, take a chance. Have faith."

Brzezinski: "Let's see what happens."

Scarborough: "I'm behind you. You fall down. I'm gonna catch you."

Brzezinski:" And the precedent has been set on the show, so you're good", [referring to his 2008 F-bomb on the air, which resulted in MSNBC instituting the seven second delay].

Halperin: "I thought he was kind of a d--- yesterday."

Scarborough: "Oh my God. Delay that! Delay that! What are you doing? I can't believe you. I was joking! Don't do that! Did we delay that?"

Too late."

You don’t refer to the President of The United States as a part of the male lower anatomy. You don’t know how glad I am the MSNBC network suspended him.

_______________________________________________

If anyone didn't see Halperin saying he thought Barry acted "kind of like a dick" in his press conference yesterday on Morning Joe, it's on the MSDNC.com website. It was Hillaryous this morning a few minutes after 6:00 AM and it was even more hillaryous just now when i rewatched it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone didn't see Halperin saying he thought Barry acted "kind of like a dick"

This coming from the guy who was salivating over Weiner's 'weinee' for three straight weeks! lol

It really is all 'dick' 24/7 with the idiot from Alabany...

Move along folks, nothing to see here...

FEISTY

That is about one in twelve blame President Obama. 26% blame the Bush Administration, 25% blame Wall Street, 11 % blame Congress. Finally people are starting to understand where the blame belongs for this mess. At the feet of the GOP/TP Party.

Enough of this President.

There is no end to the damage he's doing on every single front. Hatred spewing hypocrites from "the party of love" patting each other on the back for the most insulting and non-issue related punches they can pull.

Enough too of their scape-goating a dismal Presidency of failure to men and incidents of long ago.

It's a good thing for the United States that EVERY President hasn't done the 'excuse making' and 'buck-passing' of this man and his supporters. We don't need a President that 'cherry-picks' his assignments.

Time to go Mr. Obama....bye-bye

Alan: Thank you.

That's funny Ben,".......and the truth shall set You free", as they say, and a billion dollars worth of opposition research,lies, propaganda,and deception will not change that.

I remember when that goofy SOB, Reagan used to chastise Congress in front of the Nation on television. Didn't bother the right that he tripled the debt and spent nothing on domestic--just nation building and foolish ass war machines. I applaud the first person in office that will have the guts to propose cutting the defense budget in half.

Give em hell Prez!

Here we go with deception. Mixed Bag trots out Stanley Greenburg to demonstrate that President Obama is just not getting it. Must be true. Greenburg is a Democratic Pollster. Not enough? He's married to Rosa DeLauro, a Democratic Congresswoman.

Well folks - time for some facts. Party affiliation notwithstanding, Stanley Greenburg is a shill for Monsanto - Motto: Better dying through chemistry. His wife, Ms. DeLauro, party affiliation notwithstanding, introduced legislation that would have had a direct benefit for Monsanto. Here's the link: http://farmwars.info/?p=110

These are the people who have given us genetically modified foods, among other toxins. No one - regardless of protestations to the contrary - understands the long-term effects of gene splicing. However, there's some short-term results - check out StarLink corn. We were promised this would not contaminate other corn. Ask Taco Bell about that. Check out growth hormones in cattle - rBGH. Ummmmm, yummy. Please put that in my millk.

This isn't like playing checkers. This is a very dangerous business. This is messing with something we don't understand. But go ahead and eat it, 'cause we say it's OK. Yes, and it's safe to drill in the Gulf. And there's a Democrat who will trade safety for money. Hell, who needs Republicans to kill regulation, when Democrats are busy allowing the sale of toxins - THAT YOU EAT.

Identity politics stink. This fine bought-and-sold couple might have a "D" after their last names, but that doesn't mean they're honest.

Trust the likes of Greenburg and DeLauro at your peril. They are owned by corporate America.

Watch Out You wavering Progressives ! as You can see from above, opposition research can cut both ways! Fail to toe the party line just once,(or even worse, dare to tell the truth!),no matter how many years you've been in the Socialist Progressive movement,and the central committee will destroy You!

Perhaps the most telling argument is the last election, and what Republicans LOVE to point out: "The shellacking of Democrats in Congress."

So the American people gave Republicans a chance. They said, "ok . . . prove to us that you can do better. Prove to us that you will focus on jobs."

And what has the Republican Congress done for us? Have they followed through with their promise to focus on jobs? Have they passed ANYTHING that will help the middle class? Have they done anything besides push social agenda items?

The Republicans had a golden opportunity to rise above politics, and focus on jobs and the economy. They have failed to do what they PROMISED. In fact, they have made it blatantly obvious that there goal is to destroy our economy. Republicans actually walk around with signs that say "shut it down" and "let it fail".

So answer one simple question: Why should any independent vote for a party that actually WANTS the economy to fail?

If anyone didn't see Halperin saying he thought Barry acted "kind of like a dick" in his press conference yesterday on Morning Joe, it's on the MSDNC.com website. It was Hillaryous this morning a few minutes after 6:00 AM and it was even more hillaryous just now when i rewatched it.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow, Joe . . . you have an incredibly low standard for your comedy. You must die laughing at the local elementary school, what with all those 2nd graders calling each other bad words.

I think I finally understand why there are no conservative comedians.

One last thing, "hillaryous" . . . Really? And don't try to blame that on a typo, because you wrote it twice. Well, considering your 2nd grade humor, I should not be surprised.

Hypocrisy that this pres is scolding the congress for not working! Betcha odumbo will be playing some golf this week and he hasn't reported to work yet! Where are his budgets the first two years?? That homework is way past due, you recon! What has he done to create jobs? That homework is also 3 years past due. Where is his deficit reduction plan he talked about in April? More past due homework. Even the assassination of OBL he had to be drug off the golf course while penetta handled the whole affair. Sorry odumbo, you fail and this time you can't hide your grades - the whole country sees them now! Hahahaha By the way, odumbo, Sarah knows the ages of her kids.

The Republican Party has becoming in recent years truly, profoundly evil! This is anything but a hyperbolic statement but rather a statement of fact. As an Agnostic I believe one can argue that there is a clear distinction between professing to be Christian and "acting Christian". Granted many Christians "act Christian" but this can be said of anyone regardless of their faith or the lack their off. The Republican Party as a whole has either no concept of what it is to "act Christian" or if it does chooses to do otherwise. These people are willing to tank the economy for no other reason then blaming the outcome on the President. They will destroy the economy, the good faith and credit of the United States and countless lives for the joy and purely political expediency... of taking back the white House in 2012. They have calculated that if the President gives in to their hostage demands they can transfer more wealth (steel) from the poor, the sick, Seniors, Soldiers, vets, working Americans and the Middle Class to the coffers of the rich and call it balancing the budget (which it will not) or if he stands on his convictions (not a concept they understand) the resulting global depression will be spun to their advantage and the president will be blamed and will loose in 2012.

Act2 -

Where are his budgets the first two years?? That homework is way past due, you recon! What has he done to create jobs? That homework is also 3 years past due. Where is his deficit reduction plan he talked about in April? More past due homework.

So because the previous employee (congress) did not do their job, you don't think the new employee (congress) should have to work either. That's funny . . . I thought we voted them in BECAUSE the last guy would not do his job, and they said that they would.

It's nice to see that you are perfectly "OK" with the people you hire (vote for) doing absolutely nothing, because the guy you fired did nothing. You must run a successful business.

You are right, the libs provide more comedy, Nancy and her pass the bill and read it later, odumbo and his bumbling presidency, Biden the gaff master, and don't forget the weiner dog! Hahahaha Odumbo and the Queen thing still cracks me up!

The reps have presented a budget. Where have you been????

Bla bla, tank! Odumbo had both houses his first two years and only recently the reps have only had 6 months and you are blaming them for his bumblings? Are you for real? Please tell me what has passed the senate since they have been in charge of the house that destroyed the economy?

I am amazed at the constant cry from those who think that President Obama should walk around with 2 Uzis on his hips(legs are long enough), like President Bush did with his six guns. HE DOES NOT HAVE BUSH'S PERSONALITY. HE HAS HIS OWN. I imagine some of his critics are those who have kids and ask one "why can't you be like the other"? in an effort to belittle one and support the other.

If he says nothing, or gives the perception that he's doing nothing, he is weak. When it's proven otherwise, he is a dick. This is accepted as long as it's a negative against this President.

Since someone have to simplify this for others. President Obama did not mention corporate jet subsidies or those for corporate and gas, because that's the only tax could he cold find. He was making the point that Republicans refused to put any tax cuts on the table including even small ones, but are more willing to have seniors, the ever shrinking middle class and the poor pay more. Why take away welfare from the wealthy, since it's only a few billion? Why not take more from the poor in the form of income tax, even though they make under the poverty level? Or why not cut benefits for seniors, just think how much we will make off them if they pay at least $6000 more a year from their gross $15k annual payout. That they will then starve, doesn't matter as long as the rich gets to fly their jets subsidized by taxpayers.

For those who keep harping on the 212 budget and criticize the one voted down. Sigh. They (democrats) voted it down because they were working on something better. Just getting out a budget to say you have one, makes no sense. When you consider the criticism he received after cutting $500,000 from insurance companies subsides, that was paid by Medicare, and the one that Republicans gave, giving Medicare totally over to those same insurance companies to make up for the $1/2 mil, I can understand the push.

If only he would hurry up so we can give it or best six-gun shot.

Obama ranted on and on about "corporate jets" and taxing the people that own them - 6 times to be exact - but changing the tax provision, the very one Obama and the Democrats installed last year, would put $3 billion into the Treasury over a decade..... So would be cutting jet subsidies...$3 billion...Gas subsidies hmmmm about $10mil. Weren't you the one screaming about the tax raising Obama. So it seems you are just looking for ammunition. Can you for once put your country first?

Anyone who thought Barack Obama exhibited any kind of behavior, knowledge, style or leadership beyond the level of Community Organizer yesterday at his presser is just as out-to-lunch as our President is......This is always your stance no matter what. Hang on to the label you understand the most. He is so accomplished, you try to use one of them as a put down, if only you knew, but hey, you are using hannityspeak.

Because if he just wants to talk about corporate jets, or his kids homework, or vacations, he's just wasting everyones time.......... Not everyone, since YOU missed the analogy or how they apply to those hard workers on capitol hill. You are always quick to point out the Presidents vacations, but no one should point out that Congress takes off just about every other week. They don't get paid much, so why shouldn't they? We should now cut SS so we can pay them more.

Not a single new idea. Not an ounce of personal responsibility. Just whining, blame shifting, and lies......And lets not forget NO!!! Typical GOP.....Gnaw On People. I love how they also blame President Obama's presence on Jan 20th for all the problems of the past 8 years.

Ben..... You are so right. On MJ it's a case of the right eating it's own. Anything for attention ratings.

.Gas subsidies hmmmm about $10mil.

I meant 10 bil for gas. Wouldn't let me correct.

Just to complete Your Thoughts Cali,

The Republicans now control the House of Representatives only,and from that position, with the radical Progressives, still in charge of the Senate and the White House , the Republicans can, to a certain extent, minimize any further damage the regime can do to the nation and our economy,(by singling out the middle class, you wouldn't be trying to instigate any class struggle now would you ?),but, they do not have the votes to restore pro business, pro growth, policies, that will encourage Our entrepreneurs to invest, so, in order to turn away from this failed, radical, socialist, agenda, and restore a pro- capitalist,pro-private sector economy,that has made us the envy of the World, the radical progressives must be removed from power, so Your question is a very good one, Why would anyone vote for a party that wants our economic system,a system that has built the highest standard of living the world has ever seen, to fail?

After watching yesterday's "press conference", I can't believe there is any American left that doesn't see through this president. He has no plan, he provides no leadership, he condescends to everyone, he is smug, elitist, and play's politics at every turn. He refuses to accept that entitlement reform is a must, he refuses to cut up the credit cards, he continues to suggest that the "millionaires" and "billionaires" must pay HIS bill and calculatingly plays on the fears of the underclass. There can be no other explaination for his behavior other than he is systematically TRYING to bring this country to it's knees...and for what? Does he truely think that once he is out of office in 2013 those far-left special interest groups will continue to treat him like a king?...All of the democrats better wake up and realize they are nothing more than pawns in his game of American Roulette!

JD Still -

To be honest, I am still a registered Republican but have voted independent for the last two elections. Like some of my family, I can tell that you vote party lines . . . in your world, the GOP walks on water and has never, EVER, done a single thing wrong. Unfortunately, I do not share your fanboy mentality.

That being said, you did not answer my question. In the last election, the Republicans said they would focus on jobs and fix the economy . . . they DID NOT say they would "minimize any further damage the regime can do to the nation and our economy." Thus, I am holding them to their word.

Now the actions of the GOP speak louder than words . . . and their actions show that they do not care about improving the economy. Instead of acting like adults, they resemble school children who take their ball and go home when they don't get their way. Every independent knows that compromise is required to move forward . . . BOTH parties must act like adults and compromise. Currently, the GOP has said that they WILL NOT compromise. They have publicly stated that any compromise is off the table. To me, and every independent I know, that shows an EXTREME lack of maturity.

So I ask again: Why should I, as an independent, vote for Republicans (like I have in the past), when they refuse to compromise and refuse to focus on jobs or the economy?

BTW . . . your radical claims about the current administration being "socialist" and NOT having "pro business" policies are simply right-wing rhetoric. There are no facts to back that up. My business (private business, selling to consumers) is doing EXTREMELY well. In addition, I have not met a single small business owner that hires employees based on their tax rate . . . and I don't know a single business being negatively affected by the EPA. So your GOP talking points do not match reality. However, I would be in favor of the banks being a little more lenient.

Maybe the President should confront his own party of the 2012 if it is so far out of line like his 2011 budget. After the House rejected it, the Senate which is controlled by his own party voted 97-0 to reject his budget. You have to be in the ballpark with your own party to confront anyone. This guy is in touch with only the 15% of Americans on the far left.

No facts to back up this admin is anti-business? Hahahahahaha that's like saying there's no facts Jeff Dahmer didn't like to eat people.

First, he passes a HCR bill that no one hasa clue what it's going to cost employers during a recession. Then they almost double EPA regulations, costing corporations millions a year in redundant, stupid policies. NOW, they want to raise taxes on everyone making 250k+ a year, which includes almost every small business in the country....you know....the lifeblood of our economy? Add to that the government using strong arm tactics to stop Boeing from building a non-union plant, and yeah, you're right......no proof at all.

You all turn a blind eye to your own party's faults and are all too wiling to point out the opposition's faults. I guess if my side sucked as bad as yours and had nothing to brag about, I'd just atempt to make the opposition look stupid, too. Oh wait. BOTH SIDES SUCK.

David Walker-

How much money did candidate Obama take from corporations in 2008?

1 Term 0bama gets "shellacked:" in less than 500 days and the liberals on these boards know it and the are screaming out because 1 Term 0 has failed even worse than Jimmy Carter and they pea brain minds can't take it.

David Walker,

"Read the editorial...please. We have a number of divides in our political world. There are genuine differences between the liberal mind and the conservative mind. Those, we can deal with. The division with which we must be truly concerned is between the group characterized by rank stupidity and wanton ignorance and those who are guided by fact."

There are those on both the wrong and right side of the political spectrum. Unfortunately, the bulk of media doesn't prestent facts and most of the media is on the wrong side, trying to convince the gullible, ignorant, welfare dependent that big government is good when the fact is that as government has grown, freedom has waned, except possibly for the minorities that are here illegally, or the minorities that that perpetually suck the government teet, or the minorities that think government owes them something more than the right to pursue happiness, with no guarantee that it will ever be achieved.

And nowwe have a dependent minority on government because government made them dependent and in turn got their votes to keep them dependent as the cost of everyone else.

You brought up Jesus, but you don't seem like a believer. The path to Jesus isn't getting. It is giving. Forcing people to give will never get you right with Him.

The poor little rich kids are whining because they might have to pay for their freedom to rip off the rest of the country. My heart bleeds for the privileged corporate criminals that haven't had to work a day in their lives.

People the bottom line is we need rational and sustainable “Spending Cuts” across the board and we need to “Increase Revenues” as well. One without the other will not work – PERIOD, just about every economist and think tank says he same thing. The only ones that disagree are the GOP/TP. Ask yourself WHY???

Here are a few things I think we should look at.

1. Currently the largest single item in the deficit is the Bush Tax Cuts. So let’s put the tax cuts back to what they were under President Clinton. This money would be used to reduce the deficit and pay down the debt. Everybody puts in a little more.

2. Get rid of the tax incentives for Big Oil.

3. Cut the DOD Budget – the recent Boeing Scam is just the tip of the iceberg, the DOD is riddled with fraud as is Medicare and Medicaid. We can cut a lot of fat out of these with no harm to benefits.

4. Get out of the wars

5. Create a targeted Job Bill – like infrastructure, green jobs, high tech jobs etc. that will stimulate the economy, increase revenues both at the federal and state levels – a win/win.

6. Too many big corporations as using tax loopholes to avoid paying their fair share. The average American pays more in income taxes than some of the largest corporations in this country – this is not right. The Tax Code needs to be reformed.

Look, no matter what we do, it will not be perfect and sacrifices will need to be made. I have no problem with paying a little more as long as everybody is paying more and the money is used to move this country forward. Apathy (doing nothing) will destroy us. We need to do something. Doing nothing like the GOP/TP really wants to do is not an option.

The GOP/TP is not remotely serious on this issue. Just stalls and more smoke and mirrors hoping we will not notice that they really do not have a plan - again.

Great post, Navy!

I see First Read is STILL putting out the misleading $60 million quarter meme. Obama expected $60 million from June ALONE. His first quarter was weak, second quarter is weak- for crying out loud, the first appeal for $5 donations to "win dinner with Obama" was so poor they threw BIDEN in as a sweetener. I still don't think they have many "entries"- so WhiteCollarAuto and I may just win- on the "no donation required" list, of course.

If we do, we will certainly make sure ALL of you are privy to what was said. Unlike some "professional journalists" I could name, we don't need to skulking around in secret.

My take on why Obama is having such a hard time raising money is that his ability to be all things to all people is shot. He has a record now, and no attempt at hiding it will be successful. His actual beliefs are on display for all to see- and the constituencies that supported him against their best interests, (to say nothing of the best interest of the country), will not make that same mistake again.

His disdain for Israel is displayed at every opportunity- then he sends forth minions to explain that he was misunderstood. Well, all that spin was undone sat night

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0611/58094.html

How on earth are Wasserman Schults and Ross going to spin diplomatic relations with the Muslim Brotherhood?

That snapping sound you hear is thousands of wallets being shut.

Obama said if he doesn't get the corporate jet tax loophole closed, students won't get the loans they need for college. That's a complete lie as in the context of a $4-trillion feficit reduction goal, it is essentially meaningless. The item is so small the White House could not even provide an estimate of the revenue that would be raised, but other estimates suggest it would amount to $3 billion over 10 years.

Meanwhile, student financial assistance, just for 2011, is about $42 billion. So the corporate jet loophole — which involves the fact that such assets can be depreciated over five years, rather than the seven for commercial jets — just is not going to raise a lot of money. It certainly wouldn’t save many student loans.

So once again, Obama is lying with a complete fabrication of the truth in his speech to the American people. On the Truth-Meter, this one gets a 100% FALSE.

Navy and Feisty

What a great way to start out the day. The PRESIDENT was the only adult in the room yesterday.

Feisty, I think the even greatest offense is that these Jesus freaks complain about accepting government handouts in addition to the indoctrination of the Bachmanns on their clients.

Navy, all that matter to the GOP/T-BAGGERS is

1. Making President Obama a "one term president. They said it.

2 Tax cuts for the big oil and the rich.

I find it behooving they complain about corporate jet elimination which is in the billions; yet the social programs don't even amount to nearly that much!!! still no is answer

Bev:

The new GOP/TP is not of American Ideology. We has been replaced by me, us has been replaced by I. These people are out for themselves in a most vicious and arrogant way. They do not even try to hide it anymore.

The housing crisis is manufactured. Google Cloward Piven strategy. This has been going on for a long time that's why none of Obama's policies reverse the economy. They are designed not to. His whole advisor team is on board to overload the economy with debt so they can remake it into whatever they want.

@Navy -- For the first time some of the things you post in #2 are insightful. The prez however said they wouldn't -- for at least a year -- raise taxes on the middle class. But you and most realize that just raising taxes on the rich, closing tax loopholes on corporations and spending cuts will not even come close to what is needed. But the prez knows he is in between a Barack and a hard Weiner because he can't go back on another one of his campaign promises.

I believe you should add a sound energy and immigration policies to what needs to be done. Creating jobs and the incentive for green jobs and infrastructure jobs and high tech jobs are hard to do without some form of "incentive" to actually get these jobs off the ground. Any thoughts on that? I don't see how we approach "jobs" with the stranglehold union labor and wages has on these jobs. Companies can't be competitive on the global with those wages without some form of incentives. Boeing should be allowed to open its plant in SC. The NLRB ought to be looked into about fraud and waste as well.

Again, I am surprised we are essentially on the same page. Let's hope our politicians can get there.

Good posts Navy et al. I wonder why the Democrats didn't insist on a straight up or down vote on the debt ceiling in order to get any Democratic votes. It would seem to me that it's Speaker Boehner's job to round up required votes if they want to get a bill passed raising the ceiling. If they want to "take credit" for what happens if they don't get it done--I would threaten to let them do so! I just don't understand why the Republicans feel they are in a strong bargaining position--I don't see it that way. If they can't muster the votes and need Democratic help to get something passed, I would think that would strengthen the Democratic position.

Mr. Contrary,

Without even touching 'entitlements', we could close the $900 billion gap very easily by doing the following:

1. We could get about $200 Billion in savings by eliminating the redundancies in our Government. Eliminate the agencies that are have overlapping responsibilities and remove those agencies that are either obsolete or ineffective.

2. We could realise another $200 Billion - MINIMUM - by eliminating the Department of Homeland Security. That is a boondoggle that was covered by the FBI before 9/11. That would also include eliminating the TSA and letting the airlines do their own security at their own cost.

3. We would realise another $200 Billion eliminating the waste and fraud in the Defense budget. Secretary Gates himself said that the United States would still be able to operate - even in three theaters of war - without significant problems.

4. IMMEDIATELY repeal the tax cuts for the 2% that don't need them, and that will Garner $400 Billion. Since I know that this will probably not fly, even if a portion of those tax cuts was repealed, then we we would still have enough revenue to use in our shortfall.

5. Eliminate the Medicare Part D plan. This would garner approximately $100 Billion in savings for a plan that was never sufficiently funded in the first place.

6. Eliminate the Medicare Advantage plan. This would garner about $70 Billion in savings.

7. Cut the Defense Budget by $200 Billion more, eliminating the funding to all programs that are either obsolete or not effective. The MIC has plenty of toys to play with, so those toys they have 'cast aside' because they are bored with them or they are not effective can be eliminated. Whatever happened to a 'lean and mean' fighting force?

8. Don't EVEN get me started about our military 'contractors' like Blackwater and/or Xe. They are not being monitored or maintained, and whe really ahve no idea what monies are being paid to them; you van bet, though, the monies are in the BILLIONS.

9. Corporate tax collections for the 2010 budget was $880 Billion while the tax collection from taxpayers was $1.2 Trillion. The Corporate rax collection rate is TOO LOW; that rate should be at LEAST the same as the individual tax rate or possibly 20-30% higher. With that being said, that is about $400 Billion that is NOT being collected from our Corporate entities that are making money here in the United States.

As you can see, the savings are available if we are SMART about what we are spending taxpayer monies on. Although I can see your argument for 'smaller' government, I am making an argument for SMARTER Government.

Your premise is that there is no where else to go BUT entitlements for monetary savings in the Federal Budget. I have just shown that we could save more than $900 BILLION (if you do the math above) if we look at everything EXCEPT 'entitlements'.

Tax Cuts for the 2% does not create and Jobs nor does it stimulate the economy – they have to go.

It's worse than that. Everyone swallows the line or just ignores it. Tax cuts do not create jobs. Tax cuts destroy jobs. Think it through. For an employer, salaries and employment expenses are tax-deductible because they are parts of the cost of doing business. If you raise taxes, then the employer has an incentive to hire more people because they want to save on taxes. If you lower taxes, the employer has an incentive to hire fewer people because they can overwork their current staff and take home more money.

This isn't theory. What do you think is happening in the country right now?

Want to reduce unemployment? Raise taxes on employers.

Byron Raum - your perspective is quite interesting. Thanks for your post.

The only ones that disagree are the GOP/TP. Ask yourself WHY???

They've been working since the Reagan years to reduce corporate taxes and create loopholes for large multinationals and the ultra-wealthy, and they don't want to undo all that hard work.

Pietro:

Thank you, you beat me too it with Mr. Contrary. He post is full of misinformation and lies. You addressed them better than I.

The debt celling is in are constitution if the Repug believe in the constitution they have to pass the debt celling. People your don't believe this look it up it's real it's a fact.

Sorry MrContrary, but just because Coburn says he's willing to consider additional revenue doesn't mean the Republican Party is willing to go there. Virtually all of them have signed Grover Norquist's no tax increase pledge and their feet will be held to the fire by the crazy Tea Party and throughout the Conservative echo chamber should they break that pledge.

Besides, saying Coburn will agree in principle to additional revenue doesn't mean he's going to actually vote for it when the time comes. We learned that lesson when Chuck Grassley spent a year "negotiating" on Affordable Care. From the beginning he never intended to vote for it, only hobble it.

Mr. Contrary - Thank you for your reply. I see a few things that you have brought up that I need to respond to.

Your point number 1 has been on the table since President Reagan anf there has never been any significant action taken to consolidate Dept's. In fact, government has expanded with sub divisions of existing departments and czars to run those. While in theory, the concept is great, no President since Reagan has significantly altered the size or structure of the government.

Yeah, that is true, but just because 'no one wants to do anything about this' does NOT mean there are no savings that we could realise to make up the $900 BILLION shortfall that you asked USNAVY to find. If we were SERIOUS about reducing our deficit - and it is abundantly clear we are NOT - then that would be the FIRST thing that we would do to save some money.

The corporate tax rate in the US is 35%. The corporate tax rate in Europe and Scandinavia is 16 to 20%. US corporations are relocating to these tax friendly countries while still doing business in the US. They pay no US taxes. You say you want to lure them back by raising taxes on corporations? Wouldn't it make more sense to lower the rate to make the US more competitive in the global market?

You obscured my point in your post. I posted that in 2010, the individual tax collection was $1.2 Trillion. The Corporate collection for 2010 is $880 Billion. My argument is that these two revenue streams should be IDENTICAL or as close as can be. In other words, we need to be collecting at LEAST $1.2 Trillion in Corporate taxes, if not more than that. I am questioning why this is the case, and that could be used to bridge the $900 Billion you were talking about.

The other point is this - a Corporation will do what it needs to to boslter its bottom line. But, all Corporations understand that there is a cost of doing business anywhere they do business. Although it is fine for you to note that the Corporate rates in Europe are LOWER than in the United States, their cost of businessMAY be higher because of the labour contracts that they must honour. By JUST looking at what the 'corporate tax rate' is without taking into account for other factors, it can cause an erroneous conclusion.

As much as these Corporate people whine and moan about taxes in the United States, they have paid off the right people to make sure that they get refunds based on accounting tricks and rules put into the tax code. That is why no one likes it, but will do nothing to change it. Also, the United States is a VERY important market that many Corporations will NOT just 'give up' if they had to pay more in taxes. In fact, those very Corporations would GLADLY pay the extra taxes if the taxes they pay are a small part of their overall expenses in relation to their profits.

In other words - the 'lower taxes' mantra is a crock.

Your second point, Homeland Security. That agency coordinates inter agency activities between our intelligence agencies so intel does not fall through the gap as it did on 911. Why would you want to eliminate an agency that is working well and keeping us safe. It is NOT redundant, it is the coordinator of all intelligence agencies.

I disagree. There has always been coordination between intelligence agencies, but this is a 'Bushian' solution to make it LOOK like everything is coordinated. I mean really - what all of this 'administration' does is look at a frakin' LIST to see if someone should fly or not. A LIST that was not updated properly nor was it maintained properly. Yet we are paying $200 Billion a year to maintain a freakin' LIST.

Now you have bought the ILLUSION that Homeland Security is keeping us safe. But at what cost? We are giving up our rights as Americans in exchange for this 'safety' and no one seems to care.

Defense. We have three wars costing $10 billion a month. Whatever waste that is in there is for the F22 fighter and F35 engine is not $200 billion. The cost there is the war, the continued need to replenish arms and equipment to our troops as well as the equipment we are giving away at zero cost to our "allies", especially the Afghans and Iraqi's. I disagree that there are any significant cuts to the defense budget, especially since we just spent over a billion in Libya and that action is continuing.

Again, I disagree. You discount the Secretary of Defense who said that he was willing to cut $200 Billion from the Defense budget. I would think that Sec. Gates would know whathe is talking about since this is HIS agency.

Repeal the tax cuts? Obama extended them because he didn't want to suck $400 billion from the economy. Can you imagine what the economy would be like if $400 billion more disappeared.

Again, your premise and conclusions are wrong. President Obama agreed to those tax cuts so he could secure Unemployment benefits for 13 months from the Republicans. That was the cost of 'doing business' and it allowed President Obama to trade in his crappy hand for a stronger one, especially with the Republicans taking over the House duringthe midterms.

So you want to eliminate the Medicare drug plan and Medicare Advantage. You should tell the President. He does not.

I do, because they were never funded correctly in the first place. Again, you asked the question how we can shore up $900 Billion dollars WITHOUT touching what you call 'entitlements'.

I did that, plus some.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/goptaxes_06-24.html

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/sandb_06-24.html

Mr. Contrary - I see you have summarily dismissed my arguments, and that is fine with me.

In your post, you asked how we could find $900 Billion to cut in the budget. I posted at least 9 ways which was actually about $1.2 Trillion, and that did not even factor in whatever waste we could eliminate with 'entitlements'.

I proved my point. We could find the money if we wanted to.

You proved your point. You are more willing to argue about what Corporations are 'gonna' do as opposed to what you asked when you posed the question. You are more willing to argue about why the President didn't stand up to the Republicans than to stay on point with your question. But you are UNWILLING to look at possible alternatives to cutting 'entitlements' when dealing with our deficit.

That's OK by me. You still haven't addressed my premise that entitlements are a DIVERSION from the real problems with the spending we are doing in the United States, based on my argument(s) that we could fine the money elsewhere if we wanted to.

So, Carry on.

You have a nice weekend as well.

When are people going to STOP calling Social Security and Medicare "entitlements?" They are NOT entitlements.....many people have involuntarily had money taken from their weekly, monthly, etc. paycheck to pay into these two programs. The only "entitlement" that is involved is what each individual is ENTITLED to based on what was taken out of their checks. Every year or so, I get a run-down from the Social Security Administration telling me how much I will get if I retire at a certain age...that amount is based on how much I made in a certain quarter. The big problem is that our wonderful government has consistently "borrowed" money from the Social Security fund and failed to pay it back.....they use it like a proverbial "piggy bank" and don't replace what they take out. This is why the fund is basically "underfunded." Until government keeps their dirty mitts out of that account (and the Medicare account), they will never be sustainable!

Then, of course, is the question of people without jobs -- until we get those people back to work and paying into the system.....these funds are NOT going to be sustainable. So, it's a real Catch-22.....we need to get people back to work to sustain the current funds or they will run out!

As for the GOP solution to the budget problems....as one said earlier, how is it they don't seem to realize that in order to pay your bills, you have to have additional revenue coming in. If you don't raise taxes and eliminate the subsidies to companies that make outrageous profits as it is, you don't have money to pay the bills we currently have. The solution, then, is to cut back on spending, find a way to make revenue, and pay off the darn deficit!!! Quit sitting in the House with your finger up your you-know-what and get it done, as our President has stated!

We need to make sure EVERYONE votes in 2012 and keeps the GOP out of the leadership role....we can't handle another 8 years of Bush politics, and we need to strengthen our president's backing so that things can get done. The Party of No is getting rather boring and mundale, and we can only hope that people out there see what their posturing has done for us -- NOTHING!!

Ah, the liberal myth of discovering 100's of billions in savings by "eliminating fraud, waste, duplication of services" nonsense again. This crap is run up the flagpole by both parties whenever they need fictional savings. I've been around a while, and at least since Reagan, these ideas have been suggested, and nothing substantial is every accomplished.

So at least half of your $1.2 trillion is BS of mythical proportions.

Then, if you cut $1.2 trillion in spending and or take it out of the public cashflow, you throw 10's of millions out of work.

Don't misunderstand, I am all for cutting government, but removing $1.2 trillion from the private side and or government spending costs a ton of jobs.

So now your tax base falls again, your revenue goes down dramatically, and your unemployment costs go up substantially.

The other big lie liberals love to tell is that they are going to take from the rich, and pay off the debt. Really? Show me when that happened in the history of the US - it didn't. A complete lie.

Either your misleading on purpose, you are dim, or you live in a vacuum.

US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired

"People the bottom line is we need rational and sustainable “Spending Cuts” across the board and we need to “Increase Revenues” as well. One without the other will not work – PERIOD, just about every economist and think tank says he same thing. The only ones that disagree are the GOP/TP. Ask yourself WHY???"

I'll bite. Eliminate the Bush tax cuts = $70b/year. 12 years of that would make up for the failed stimulous.

"Here are a few things I think we should look at.

"1. Currently the largest single item in the deficit is the Bush Tax Cuts. So let’s put the tax cuts back to what they were under President Clinton. This money would be used to reduce the deficit and pay down the debt. Everybody puts in a little more."

Pure BS. $70b/year per CBO. How doesthat fix the last 4 years that = $4 tril? Do tell.

"2. Get rid of the tax incentives for Big Oil."

Peanuts, $3b/year. But I agree. We should also open up oil reserves in America which are among the largest in the world. Nah, that makes too much sense.

"3. Cut the DOD Budget – the recent Boeing Scam is just the tip of the iceberg, the DOD is riddled with fraud as is Medicare and Medicaid. We can cut a lot of fat out of these with no harm to benefits."

Why not just eliminate the military all together? It only benefits other nations. Anyone who attacks us again we just nuke them. Already paid for.

"4. Get out of the wars"

Yes, tell your president to get out of Lybia. Just nuke them if they are a problem. Already paid for.

"5. Create a targeted Job Bill – like infrastructure, green jobs, high tech jobs etc. that will stimulate the economy, increase revenues both at the federal and state levels – a win/win."

I am 58, unemployed for over 2 years. No one will hire me because of my age but I have knowledge that few in the country have in investment casting. So, are you going to retrain me just so when all is said and done I retire? Don't think so. if green is viable and profitable, then there is no reason for incentives since the oil industry is dying anyway, due to the fact that it can't be expanded in America because of greenies that don't want it in their back yard but use the crap out of it anyway. And how is it that the economy gets stimulated by tax credits that you just said you didn't want for oil companies? Try to be consistant.

"6. Too many big corporations as using tax loopholes to avoid paying their fair share. The average American pays more in income taxes than some of the largest corporations in this country – this is not right. The Tax Code needs to be reformed."

Yes. let's tax the crap out of corporations so they all leave the country. Good plan. The average America payslittle or no taxes. The corps and wealthy pay over 85% already. Source: IRS. Don't you ever check any facts before you post?

"Look, no matter what we do, it will not be perfect and sacrifices will need to be made. I have no problem with paying a little more as long as everybody is paying more and the money is used to move this country forward. Apathy (doing nothing) will destroy us. We need to do something. Doing nothing like the GOP/TP really wants to do is not an option.

The GOP/TP is not remotely serious on this issue. Just stalls and more smoke and mirrors hoping we will not notice that they really do not have a plan - again."

Until you mentioned the GOP/TP I agreed with you, but that just shows your ignorance and bias. Both want less government. Government is expensive and produces nothing but paperwork and regulations that hinder productivity. The dems are the ones creating all of the paperwork and regulations. I don't care about the spotted owl, yet an insignificant bird that few have ever seen has destroyed the major wood producing state in America - Oregon.

Now those who logged are on welfare thanks to dems. It is a renewable resource and provided 10s orthousands of jobs before the greenies got a judge or 2 to ban most logging. And the result was a couple million acres burned, and they still can't salvage it. Nice work greenies. screw an entire economy and blame it on Bush. It would be funny if not so sad.

The leftists/wrong are the reason America is in diar straights and they think a few solar panels paid for by tax credits will solve the problem. Bunch ofmaroons.

BTW, the latest Rasmussen poll says that only 24% of probable voting Americans says that America is going in the right direction. Of democrats it was 47%. The stupid leading and following the stupid.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/right_direction_or_wrong_track

MSNBC just proved that feisty is a shill.

She/it /hatever didnn't have the first post and now she/it/whatever has it. MSNBC is a total farce, leftist machine, doesn't care about anything except perpetuating the god of Obama.

Nice job MSNBC. Protect your own, perpetuate your own. Just shows you are not about new. Only about propaganda. Ban me for showing what you really are.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2011/06/defense-africom-air-force-navy-flying-libya-missions-063011/

why is obama not being impeached?

He is not going to be impeached. Congress likes the destruction of America - both parties.

What is more curious to me is why the wrong never attempt to answer my posts. They believe in the wrong and I understand that, but they cannot defend the wrong, which makes the wrong weak. They are just whiners with no code, no answer, no belief. Why? Because when anyone directly challenges them the curl up into the fetal position because they cannot back their play. They are all talk and no walk.

Christopher, your comments suggest that you are in need of some help. You blaim all Christians and republicans for the actions of a few. You seem to be obsessed with anal sex. You are so full of hate that the Satan seems to have a firm grip on what little soul you have left, if any.

You make a ridiculous claim that 99.9% of Christians are republicans yet the republican party only covers about 35% of the population in America while 80% of the population is Christian. You hate is as full as anyone I have ever seen here. Why is that? Did someone drop you on your head as a child? Your comments are not rational.

If I may Louis J, I have a couple more...

You are factually challenged

You are void of a moral compass

You hear voices in your head

Louis J:

That is probably the best analysis I have seen. Really sums up a lot of them and expalins why they say what they say.

Top one way you know you are a democrat..

You are not responsible for your own actions and must depend on others to provide you with talking points, food, housing, medical care and beer money.

Yes you may my Feisty friend.

Navy, it's like identifying a big elephant in a room full of mice, the elephant gets extremely upset when the mice are just looking for something to eat.

JC, see 10 - 1 for reference to your statement. But focus on number 4 and 2.

Today Time magazines Mark Halperin referred to Obama as being a "di*k" during his press conference yesterday. That sums it up nicely. Looks like even the liberal press is turning on Obama. Obama's bizarre behavior is getting to be too much for even the liberal media.

Here's how you know you're a Democrat. Just as out of touch and clueless as Obama, Dick Durbin (D-IL - what is it with Illinois pols, are they all this stupid?) said the following after using illegal immigrants as props to push the DREAM Act at a Senate committee hearing:

"When I look around this room, I see America's future. Our doctors, our teachers, our nurses, our engineers, our scientists, our soldiers, our Congressman, our Senators and maybe our President."

Of course Dicky forgot about Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution says: "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President."

Source: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/06/29/durbin_illegal_alien_could_be_our_future_president.html

Hey Dick, surprise us all and go pass a budget!

And just think if Bachmann had said this - there'd be 4 FR articles about it cutting her down.

Mark Halperin is NOT, repeat NOT, a liberal.

JoAnna,

Dick must be one of those birthers that thinks Obama is not a citizen and has set a precedent for illegal aliens.

AM-

Bet Halperin voted for Obama, though, and will again.

JC in G:

You are not responsible for your own actions and must depend on others to provide you with talking points, food, housing, medical care and beer money.

LoL The other day some conservative accused me of hating all rich people and asked me whether I knew there were also rich liberals. REALLY?! Well. Then, my question for YOU is how those rich liberals got rich. According to you, this is not even possible.

Some of us actually work for a living, provide our own food and housing, pay for our medical care, and don't drink beer. That includes me. I have never received a dime of assistance of any kind from the government, and yet I manage to live pretty well.

When I lived in the northern part of this state, I knew plenty of lazy right-wing rednecks who relied on government assistance. Should I assume YOU'RE one of THEM?

LOL,

Yes, I forgot about them being hypocrites and liars. Thanks for the reminder.

According to the liberals, getting a tax cut is taking money from the government. If you really do have a job and pay takes, than you have taken money from the government according to your brethren. Hypocrite!

I hope the President continues to be a Di*K in speaking to the Republicans. Getting down and dirty with these Republican B@stards seems to be the only thing they under stand when you call them out.

Mr. President, please keep it up.

Mixed Bag:

Bet Halperin voted for Obama, though, and will again.

Then I guess that tells us all we need to know about Mark Halperin, doesn't it?

But after giving it some thought, it's probably understandable because voting for Obama benefits the media more. As we joke in my own profession, always talk republican and always vote democrat. Where else would we get all the legislation that puts food on our tables?

AM: Mark Halperin is NOT, repeat NOT, a liberal

I'm certain Mark has been banished from the Liberal Tree House Club. It's blasphemy to speak about the Liberals Fearless Leader like that, that won't be tolerated in Libbie Land.

JC in G:

Yes, I forgot about them being hypocrites and liars. Thanks for the reminder.

Do you mean I'm a hypocrite because I have compassion for others, or a liar because you don't believe I'm not on welfare? Okay. Fair enough. Wrong, but fair enough.

Hey, Bag Boy: What do you think about JC in G calling me a liar? Got anything to say to him?

"I'm certain Mark has been banished from the Liberal Tree House Club."

Who's next...Stan Greenberg?

AM-

Actually, I do...the minute you call out the members Libs R Us like Feisty and Nash who show no reluctance in labeling those bloggers with whom they disagree "liars".

Heck...I'll call out JC.

JC, you shouldn't call other bloggers "liars".

You can say their views are hypocritical...that's factual.

Don't take it personally, all libbies are lairs. You are just part of the group.

No, you are a hypocrite for taking advantage of the Obama tax cuts that you say are simply there to help the rich.

Halprin is a right wing pundit. I was watching MSNBC Joe Blow and I guess they did something or said something that got passed the 7 second delay. Mark H and Joe S spent time apologizing to President Obama for what they said.

It must have been a dozy.

See typically GOP/TP who thinks they can do anything they want and not be held respoonsible.

I'm not a top 2 percenter, and believe me I pay my share of taxes. I actually overpaid this year, missing deductions I could have taken -- I'm not a tax lawyer. I don't nit pick my taxes and look for every loophole and whine and complain about it.

Still waiting, Bag Boy. Got anything to say to JC from G? He just called me a liar again.

Where's your outrage now, Bag Boy?

It's there, AM.

The ball's in your court.

Thing is, Bag Boy, you've never give me a racket.

Navy lied when he said he watched "Joe Blow". There is no one named that on the show his is talking about. AM admits she lies: " As we joke in my own profession, always talk republican and always vote democrat."

Seems I really hit a nerve with you AM. Liar Liar Liar.

Halprin is a right wing pundit.

Just like Howard Fineman and any other journalist who criticizes the administration...

Whatever MH is no one who has ever actually read his ovure would be able to call him a right-winger.That's just silly, and wrong too...

2004 elections

In October 2004 the Drudge Report published a memo Halperin sent to ABC News staff about coverage of the U.S. presidential election directing them not to "reflexively and artificially hold both sides 'equally' accountable" and that both John Kerry and George W. Bush used "distortion" in their campaign, but that Kerry's distortions were not "central to his efforts to win."^[3] Halperin was criticized by conservatives who used the memo to reinforce long-standing complaints of media bias.^[4][5] ABC News spokesman Jeffrey Schneider confirmed the authenticity of the memo and said Halperin "takes his responsibility to be fair as seriously as a heart attack."^[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Halperin

Yo JC in G

Ana is no liar...

Even though you would NEVER come to MY defense...I will come to yours...:)

Your comment is a shiny object, AM, but I'm not distracted.

Do you have something to say about those who call other bloggers liars, or not?

What about Chuckie T?

Chuck Todd...

Our own resident right-winger...right here in River City!

Madness...

Don't worry about it, Mixed Bag. It is not of central importance.

This might be what is making them so vitriolic

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/06/jobapproval-obama_n_726319.html

Wait until the unemployment numbers come out. Initial claims above 400,000 again for the twelfth week in a row.

Wait until the GDP numbers come out.

To say nothing of the switch from adults to likely voters.

We are going to need helmets.

Mixed Bag:

Do you have something to say about those who call other bloggers liars, or not?

Oops. I thought you were talking about something else, Bag Boy. And so was I.

Of course, I do. It's wrong, and it's always wrong. You already know that I admitted my own guilt for doing it. But I'm not the one playing cop out here. That would be you.

And thanks, dangerfield, for your support. I certainly would come to your aid, if necessary.

JC from G:

AM admits she lies: " As we joke in my own profession, always talk republican and always vote democrat."

Seems I really hit a nerve with you AM. Liar Liar Liar.

No, I said it was a joke. Have YOU ever seen me talk republican?

But thanks for playing. Now begone, you have now power over me.

Anna Molloy:

You are on a roll.

The GOP/TP Party has no new ideas, and the ones they have are the very same ones that caused this mess to begin with. They complain about the deficit but fail to acknowledge that about 50% of the current deficit is the direct responsible of the failed previous administration. They are the party of no shame, no moral and they lost their ethical compass about 30 ears ago.

To them it is all about Wall Street over Main Street, Big Business over Small Business and the 2% over the 98%. This is a serious character flaw they all share. It is about keeping what they have, notsharing in the sacrifices needed to be done, and then blame everybody else for the problems not being fixed. They are the problem. Just look at his joke of a Debt Ceiling discussion. They want it all, they will not comprimise and they will destroy this country unless the people speak up.

They seem to think they 98% of the people exist to serve them and their ideology. That will not work in this country.

AM-

Review our exchange.

I spoke directly to JC.

Now...someone on YOUR side, if you please?

You have just lied again. I do have power over you. I have elicited a response. That is a form of power.

Anna Molly, wouldn't you then say you paid your fair share because you didn't take all the deductions you could have taken? After all, President Obama claimed much, much more than the standard deduction (about $388,000) to reduce his tax liability.

Does this make President Obama a hypocrit? My answer is no. The same as it does not make Marcus Bachmann a hypocrit for seeing Medicaid patients.

Mixed Bag,

Sorry if I got you in trouble. Yes, you directly told me not to call Anna a liar and I did not listen. That is not your fault.

I try to refrain from personal attacks, but as you can see, my initial comment above was to the asinine little list that Louis put together. That list is full of lies. Anna choose to jump on board. If the goal here is an exchange of ideas that may help the future of America, I am all for it and would gladly listen to the "Other side of the story". If it is simply to call people that disagree with your political views names, well, I can play that game too.

LOL!

JC...you can't possibly get me in trouble here at First Read.

I've been knee deep in the big muddy here from day one.

It's been suggested that I'm a Jim Crow racist who engages in "brainless teabaggery".

I might be a Nazi as well.

You'll have to go some to top those.

JC:

You have just lied again. I do have power over you. I have elicited a response. That is a form of power.

No, guess again. I was just using your post to make a point. The one with power over me is Bag Boy.

Bag Boy: Review our exchange.

I spoke directly to JC.

Sorry. That may have been a little too subtle, especially for JC. I thought you were talking directly to me. You really ought to try that sometime.

Now...someone on YOUR side, if you please?

Sorry again. I don't control anyone else on my side. Whatever "my side" is.

@Danno: Democrats don't complain about people taking legal deductions except to the extent those deductions make the tax burden fall unfairly on some groups. This may surprise you, but those groups are not us, in many cases. People like me generally pay our own way, and we don't complain because we know that taxes are important to fund the kind of society we would like to have.

A compassionate society. And that costs money.

Michele Bachmann, on the other hand, complains about Medicaid recipients while her business accepts Medicaid reimbursement. There is a BIG difference there. Sorry you can't see it because your failure to do so will cause you to engage in some very bad decisionmaking down the line.

This is the laziest president we have ever had. When is he going to get off his worthless b u t t and do actual work. He, and the dems, still haven't even proposed a budget.

JC from G:

That list is full of lies. Anna choose to jump on board.

Excuse me? If ever there was a back-handed apology, that was it. You didn't even apologize to ME, only to Bag Boy.

But I don't really expect an apology. Just explain to me how I "jumped on board" to anything. I was responding to what YOU said, not to Louis's list. YOU were the one who chose to throw stereotyped insults at all the liberals on this board, including me. There was no bandwagoning from me. Just responding to YOUR false statements.

JC in G Top one way you know you are a democrat.. You are not responsible for your own actions and must depend on others to provide you with talking points, food, housing, medical care and beer money.

LOL, that is the best short, no name calling definition of a Democrat I have ever heard.

AM-

You're Welcome...

The GOP/TP Party has no new ideas, and the ones they have are the very same ones that caused this mess to begin with.

Hey Navy, apart from removing the tax deduction on corporate jets (sigh), what is the Democrats big new idea? Let more illegals in at a time of 9%+ unemployment? Spend another $1T in borrowed Chinese money?

C'mon, be positive. Put your proposals out there.

Anna Molly-

You asked me to call out someone on "my side" (your words) for labeling a fellow blogger a liar.

I did so.

You're making a statement whether you follow suit or not, AM.

It's OK either way.

First of all, AM, it is not Michelle Bachmann's business. It is the business of her husband. Would you say that James Carville and Mary Matalin will completely agree (or even at all) on decisions of a business? I'm not saying the Bachmanns are the same as Carville and Matalin, but one does not dictate the business of the other.

@Danno -- Just for fun, you might try looking up Minnesota's marital property law:

"Marital property" means property, real or personal, including vested public or private pension plan benefits or rights, acquired by the parties, or either of them, to a dissolution, legal separation, or annulment proceeding at any time during the existence of the marriage relation between them, or at any time during which the parties were living together as husband and wife under a purported marriage relationship which is annulled in an annulment proceeding, but prior to the date of valuation under section 518.58, subdivision 1. All property acquired by either spouse subsequent to the marriage and before the valuation date is presumed to be marital property regardless of whether title is held individually or by the spouses in a form of co-ownership such as joint tenancy, tenancy in common, tenancy by the entirety, or community property. Each spouse shall be deemed to have a common ownership in marital property that vests not later than the time of the entry of the decree in a proceeding for dissolution or annulment.

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=518.003

Try again.

AM,

I was responding to Louis's silly little list. That is what the [reply] button is for. I have given facts that support my assertion that the liberals on this board lie. You have not disputed this fact. You have simply asked if I was some North Georgia redneck that lived on government assistance. No I am not. I pay my taxes. I support many charitable organizations that help underprivileged groups in America. You see, the Democrats do not have a monopoly on compassion and the constant tone of the liberals that all the Republicans care about is making the top 2% of money earners more wealthy is a lie. This type of hyperbole is at the root of contributing to dividing this country. You would be hard pressed to find any significant group of Americans that "Want to kill grandma." My mother is a grandma and I certainly don't want to kill her or any of her friends. Do I owe you an apology? No. Do you owe me one? Maybe for insinuating that I am a redneck welfare recipient, but since you don't really know me, I guess asking the question is reasonable.
I hope you live a long and productive life. I hope your dreams and aspirations are realized as long as they don't infringe on mine. I actually feel this way about Roselle, Navy, Louis and the rest of the contributors on this page. (Save for a few trolls that simply pander to their peers to elicit more hate and divide.)

#1 way to tell if you're a moderate independent:

Listening to "libbies" and "connies" accuse each other of the exact same behavior they themselves are guilty of on a regular basis makes you sick to your stomach.

MB: You're making a statement whether you follow suit or not

Nice try Mixed. An admirable attempt.

Are you surprised by the results?

If you voted for Obama in 2008 to prove you weren’t a racist, you’d
better vote for someone else in 2012 to prove you’re not an idiot.

JC:

Maybe for insinuating that I am a redneck welfare recipient, but since you don't really know me, I guess asking the question is reasonable.

You really are funny, JC. You don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot, do you? You began this exchange by lumping ALL democrats together and called us lazy welfare recipient liars -- when you don't know ME either.

Your EXACT words being:

Top one way you know you are a democrat..

You are not responsible for your own actions and must depend on others to provide you with talking points, food, housing, medical care and beer money.

And now you condescend to offer me your best wishes, after having also called me a liar multiple times, for which you never did apologize -- at least not to me -- and for which you try to cover now by saying that there are other liberals on this board who lie. Well, you didn't call THEM liars, JC, you called ME a liar.

Which, since you don't know me, is a little bit of extra presumptuousness on your own part, don't you think?

And you also have the nerve to pretend that YOU somehow have the moral highground because I turned your own words back on you by labeling YOU with a false stereotype so you could see how that feels. You still don't even realize what you've done.

Sorry. No play. Accept the consequences of your own actions, and then we'll talk.

Ah louisJ, obama does the divide and conquer bit so well, I wonder when the last time was that he tried to get both sides to work together. I do so like his continual reminders on how granny and the poor will be thrown under the bus with a republican agenda that wants to address our $14 trillion debt. Obamas continual rhetoric and "do nothing" approach will surely throw us all under the bus.

Rather surprised that your fellow FR libs didn't take offense at your other 9 points as they did seem to be directed at them.

It OK Anna. I still think and accuse you of being a liar. Nice try though.... Here is your latest lie:

"You began this exchange by lumping ALL democrats together and called us lazy welfare recipient liars"

That is not how I began the exchange. I began with:

Top one way you know you are a democrat..

You are not responsible for your own actions and must depend on others to provide you with talking points, food, housing, medical care and beer money.

The work "Liar" never appears in this statement as you have just said it did. You are a liar.

JC:

I still think and accuse you of being a liar.

Sigh.

@ Bag Boy: I don't think JC was sincere in his apology to you. What do you think?

But it's okay. You own him now.

The work "Liar" never appears in this statement as you have just said it did. You are a liar.

Oh, no. Sorry for the oversight, JC. That was in the very next comment down, right after my response.

LOL,

Yes, I forgot about them being hypocrites and liars. Thanks for the reminder.

Just who would the "them" in that statement be, JC?

Are you just trying to prove my point? It was an oversight, not a lie? OK, My statement about "them" was just an "Oversight".

My apology to MB was that I hoped I didn't get him in trouble. It was not an apology that I called you a liar. Why would I apologize for that? I never said that I wasn't a liar. Calling all Democrats lazy welfare recipients is a lie. I did it to make a point in rebuttal to Louis's little list. I admit it, It was a lie. Not all Democrats are lazy welfare recipients.

Since you obviously don't like my terminological that "You jumped on the bandwagon", could you explain your intentions of stating:

"When I lived in the northern part of this state, I knew plenty of lazy right-wing rednecks who relied on government assistance. Should I assume YOU'RE one of THEM?"

Now be careful, true to tell the truth in your response....

Anna Molly-

What do I think?

I'm still waiting, AM.

This is you and me...not JC.

AM, the section of the Minnesota Revised Statutes you are quoting from is Marriage Dissolution. Just because you may have a right to part of the business upon dissolution of a marriage does not mean you have any right to dictate how the business is run while married.

You may want to try again.

Has it occurred to you posters that most of the problems the country has would be trivial and in general easily fixed if the politicians of both large parties would only stop trying to prevent members of the other party any leeway or taking any credit in solving them? This is constantly done and the (often obvious) solutions are s***canned and so the problems fester and get worse. Both parties damage the US daily. Why are any of you loyal to either one?

JC (quoting me): When I lived in the northern part of this state, I knew plenty of lazy right-wing rednecks who relied on government assistance. Should I assume YOU'RE one of THEM?"

Now be careful, true to tell the truth in your response....

I think that's obvious, if you read it carefully. I didn't say you WERE one of those. I merely asked you if I SHOULD say that you were one, just like YOU said all liberals were lazy freeloaders who drank beer.

When I said I wasn't, you replied by calling all liberals liars, which in reality you directed toward me. Is it any wonder that I reacted?

If you really WERE kidding, and it WAS intended as irony, I apologize. Because that's exactly what I was doing, too. If that's true, then mea culpa.

I just tend to react VERY badly to being called a lazy freeloader. It happens out here way too much. I pay my own way and I find that accusation to be particularly offensive, among all the offensive things that are said to me and others here. Since I don't really know you, it was not possible for me to judge that.

Just like true conservatives who say the same thing -- and mean it -- don't know me.

Bag Boy:

What do I think?

I'm still waiting, AM.

This is you and me...not JC.

Sigh. If only.

Danno:

Just because you may have a right to part of the business upon dissolution of a marriage does not mean you have any right to dictate how the business is run while married.

Actually, that definition affects a lot of other things, including the ability to incur debt on behalf of a business or to sell it, or lots of things like that. But do you REALLY think Michele Bachmann has no say in her husband's business?

Because then why didn't SHE just say that instead of making up some phony baloney about it?

DiDi - That's why the Republicans want to cut Social Security, so they don't have to pay back what they borrowed.

Great post, IR. Hmmmmm----"meant to prevent a radical minority from derailing the full faith and credit of the nation." Sound like anything that is happening today?!

You go with that, please. Tell people that not just this president, but any president, has a constitutional right to spend us into oblivion.

That ought to help republicans enormously.

Like Obama, yesterday, whining, "I've been here,", meaning, in D.C. Does he think no one knows he has been all over the place, vacationing, or fundraising? He blew into town for a couple of hours this week, between fundraisers, and announced, after meeting with Biden and Reid, that he believed he could get a "bipartisan" agreement.
Does he even realize they are both members of his party?

Does he really think the American electorate is so dumb they buy "investment" as anything other than spending?

Or "closing loopholes" as anything other than tax increases?

Maybe he does. It seems to me that one member of the treehouse put forth that a "reliable source" had informed that the White House really did read this blog.

Be that as it may, the rest of the country does NOT rely on this blog for news. If Obama thinks the entire electorate is drugged into believing he is still seen as the Messiah, they are in for a very big surprise come November 2012.

As are the members of the treehouse, and the "professional journalists" on this site.

Someone's forgetting...again...that budgetary matters reside in the House of Representatives, as dictated by the Constitution. If we don't have a responsible budget--and we don't--it's the fault of House Republicans who refuse to do their Constitutionally-required work.

"Tell people that not just this president, but any president, has a constitutional right to spend us into oblivion."

We don't have to nojo - W already showed us, de facto.

Republicans set the precedent (begining with the asinine Reaganomic trickle down fiasco) so now you want to change up the rules?

Hippocrits!

Um, John? The House passed a budget.

It failed in the Senate.

What is SUPPOSED to happen is that the Senate is supposed to pass a budget, then reconcile it with the House budget, then both houses vote on it, and send it to the president to sign or veto.

That has not happened for TWO YEARS.

Reid thinks he has fulfilled his obligation by holding votes on the House budget, which, as I mentioned, failed, and Obama's budget proposal, which also failed- unanimously. Meaning, he did not get one vote, even from his own party.

I do not even think the Senate budget committee holds meetings. If they do, they are held like that roundtable in July. Clandestinely, with no one knowing heat is discussed.

John B:

True. One thing that keeps getting swept under the rug is this Debt Ceiling is for current liabilities that the government has agreed to. That would be like buying a car this year and then renigning on payment, or eating a meal at a restaurant and then not paying for it.

This game they are playing will not only cause major problems with the USA but it will be a shot heard around the world, make no doubts about it.

Wall Street is wising up to this as they finally figured it may impact them very hard and the government will have no money to bail them out this time. This house of cards is going to come crashing down around all our heads - republicans and democrats alike.

The GOP/TP is putting this country on a path to nowhere other than destruction. For what????

Thanks for the history lesson, IR; well done! In order to understand the present, it pays to understand the past.

Thanks friends and neighbors. I think I'll rest my case since no one seems to be able to come up with a rebuttal that makes sense.

IR:

Great post today. Kudos.

since no one seems to be able to come up with a rebuttal that makes sense.

This is different than any other day around here... HOW? lol

Great Post IR! ;o)

hmmmm... rebut what? section 4 of the 14th amendment or the theory that IR presented? Seems that IR reference is merely someone elses opinion and not theory except for the ruling made in 1935.

Wonder what scotus would have to say about FED policies that devalues our dollar?

Seems that the real answer lies in the question of why do we need a debt ceiling other than to remind the government that spending is out of control.

Who's stalling Senate work on the budget? The same people that filibustered the budget for the last 2 years--Republicans.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Republican leaders in Congress said Tuesday they may stretch out negotiations on raising the U.S. debt limit until July, when Washington will be close to defaulting on its obligations.

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell and Eric Cantor, the No. 2 Republican in the House of Representatives, fired the opening shots in what is expected to be a bitter fight with the White House over increasing the U.S. borrowing limit to enable the country to keep paying its debts.

Prolonging negotiations past mid-May when Washington will hit its debt limit could give Republicans more leverage to secure big spending cuts, but it could worry investors as the country runs up against a possible default. The Republicans said they would act before that happened.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/13/republicans-may-stretch-out-debt-limit-july_n_848459.html

But like a spoiled chilled who breaks the cookie jar before pointing at his brother and screaming "HE DID IT!!" Conservatives try to blame Democrats for a plan of their own making and implementation.

Bravo, Jody. And bravo to the President for putting the blame exactly where it belongs---on the inability of Republicans to agree to a reasonable compromise to address a serious issue.

Jody:

OUTSTANDING POST.

President Obama called it the way it is. He put the blame squarely where it belongs, at the feet the the GOP. They created this mess and to this day will not accept any responsibility. It took them 8 years to run this country into the ground and have the nerve to deny their hand in it and demand that President Obama fix it overnight while they plan and scheme to do everything in their power to stop him.

This party is way beyond hypocrisy. They no longer have any idea what his country stands and stood for over our brief History. The have been waging "Class Warfare: on us for 3 decades with the goal to create a society based on class. There is no doubt about it. Look at their current legislation, pending bills and proposals. They are setting up classes of people that they want to dominate. One class will have everyting, the other nothing.

No, they surpassed simple hypocrisy a long time ago. They are a totally foreign element in society today.

yepper, obama hit the right notes for the FR libs. Wonder how this plays....

Way cool, obama is hitting two fundraisers today (from above). He didn't waste any time in telling congress to show leadership and then go off on the campaign trail again. Guess he showed us all on his brand of leadership, must be why polls consistantly cite (in the 60 percentile range) that Americans believe our country is headed down the wrong track and the question doesn't even mention political party.

Nicely done, Jody...it's been most of the day now and no one has even tried to dispute your point that;

For two and a half years, the GOP has sat on its collective hands while Americans suffered. They continue to defend tax loopholes that benefit the richest and those who least need breaks while cutting spending on clean energy, roads, food and drug safety, health and food programs for the poor and children, education for the other 90% of Americans.

Jody and John B:

First, Jody you are spot-on. John B, there's one reason only, that no one is disputing Jody's post. It is correct in its entirety. Very nice.

American lotsanumbers actually explains why the right wing has no valid counterpoint. The President has unequivocally told Congress what needs to be done. American takes him to task for not sticking around to hold their collective hand. Apparently there is a serious shortage of grown-ups in the G.O.P. There is no alternative to increasing revenues by raising taxes in combination with spending cuts and some very serious reforms to bring the budget into balance.

Cantor and Kyl present us with two alternatives. Either they are the most cynical, rotten, lying bastards in Congress, or they are the dumbest.....and THAT is intended as a factual statement.

It irritates me to no end to point fingers, because we have been headed down the road of fiscal disaster more than 70 years, regardless of who was driving the car. However, there is an end to that road and we are rapidly approaching it. We must have action. Obama is not joking. The ball is in Congress' court. It's that simple, and in the main the problem tracks to Republicans

I will make this prediction. The thieves who run Megabuck Monstrocorp DO understand what it means to freeze the debt ceiling. I guarantee you that before the August deadline, the CEO's and the big money boys who have been pillaging America will issue their Republican lackeys their marching orders. The debt ceiling WILL be raised.

David, I'll disagree with you on only one point. We haven't been headed down this road to fiscal disaster for more than 70 years, but only 30. Without the dominance of Supply-Side economics for the last 3 decades our national debt would be PAID OFF by now. We would EASILY be able to apply effective economic stimulus in times of recession and easily be able to pay it off during times when the economy is doing well. More on that point here; http://zfacts.com/p/318.html

You're right, we need to take action. You're also right that the action needs to consist of a combination of spending cuts AND revenue increases with everything on the table. Word today is that Cantor and the Republicans walked away from debt negotiations because Democrats wanted 17% of the 2.4T in proposed debt reduction to come from increased revenue, mostly through closure of loopholes and suspension of "special" tax breaks targeted at specific businesses.

Do the new Robber Barons really think they're better off to crash the economy once again as opposed to losing some of the massive tax breaks they've gained over the last few years? Let's hope not.

Bill,

Excellent post today. It makes so much sense that I'm sure you will be attacked personally for making such a statement.

Hang in there though, it is nice to see a voice of reason.

Bill,

Isn't that what the GOP wants to do?

- Keep and extend tax breaks for the millionaires and billionaires, some of whom are only as such because they are part of the "Lucky DNA Club" while making the middle class bail out the debt and the deficit.

- Give business whatever they want...and never mind that it was Wall Street who threw the economy in the hopper by playing their shell-game of "Find The Bad Assets".

"Leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement."

Jefferson obviously never met Ken Lay or Bernie Madoff.

"And take not from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned."

Exactly...let those who broke the economy fix it! That's the millionaires and billionaires and not the middle class!

They do not, and never will, get it, Bill. The entitlement mentality of the left does not allow for reason- or blame.

The public is a different story. They may not understand, fully, why Obama's economic plans have failed so miserably- they only know that they have, and that he is doubling down on them. They have no faith in his ability to change course- nor do they expect that he will.

There is "hope", though.

Seems the electorate wants a change.

Bill obviously never met the Jefferson who agreed to the Louisiana Purchase without knowing where the money would come from. He knew that purchase was an essential investment in the future of the United States, and was sure he could convince Americans of the wisdom of that investment. Had he the mindset of today's Conservatives our flag would still have 13 stars, and we'd be just another minor player on the world's stage.

Still waiting for Bill to 'splain why all of this did not work when President George W. Bush tried it.

Bill always presents a bunch of beeyootiful sounding theoretical stuff. Not so enamored of reality however. Bill thinks that illegally scamming people is "earning" money. Too funny.

Bill: Thanks for adding some rational thought to the discourse. Too often the left ignores the repercussions of their efforts to confiscate from those who work, invent, and take risks. The left has spawned a culture of entitlement that threatens the stability of our nation. Our President's approach of inciting class warfare does nothing to advance a solution, and demonstrates how little he understands about leadership, human nature, or finance.

Bill, were you makiing this claims while President Bush used America's charge cards? Silly question, of course not because the GOP claims no responsibility nor do they apologize for failed policies.

It was the UNFUNDED spending from 2001 through 2006 that created the massive debt hole and the hole was dug by the GOP and Bush 43. Then when their house built on sand collapsed and Government needed to spend to keep the country from another Depression, the previous unfunded spending and irresponsible tax policy hampered Government's ability to do even more to stop the bleeding. Let's put blame where it belongs--in the laps of the GOP who never learned the lessons that Reagan learned and tried to teach them.

I know that the Republicans can't be that dumb. But, sometimes they just don't seem to understand basic economics as far as the mess the country was in at the end of 2008.

Interesting on how the FR libs choose strawman arguments and deflection in reply to bills observations. Seems that not one of them is capable or knowledgeable enough to take on a meaningful rebuttal.

On another note, I find it interesting that obama has hit the campaign trail again. It does make me wondfer why he is so intent on re-election when our economy sucks.

It was the UNFUNDED spending from 2001 through 2006 that created the massive debt hole

Sorry to rain on your parade, but here are the FACTS:

2001 – $128.2B budget surplus, amounting to 1.3% of GDP. (this was a legacy of Clinton, but since you were sloppy enough to start your uninformed rant at 2001, I'll begin there as well).

2002 - $157.8B budget deficit, 1.5% of GDP
2003 - $377.6B budget deficit, 3.4% of GDP
2004 - $412.7B budget deficit, 3.5% of GDP
2005 - $318.3B budget deficit, 2.6% of GDP
2006 - $248.2B budget deficit, 1.9% of GDP

I'll even throw in 2007 and 2008, just cuz I'm a fair and balanced kinda guy.

2007 - $160.7 budget deficit, 1.2% of GDP
2008 - $458.6B deficit, 3.2% of GDP

Now the Obama years (2010-2012 are estimates):

2009 - $1,412.7B deficit, 9.9% of GDP
2010 - $1.555.6B deficit, 10.6% of GDP
2011 - $1,266.7B deficit, 8.3% of GDP
2012 - $828.5B deficit, 5.1% of GDP

I'll be kind and toss out 2001 since that was a Clinton surplus. But the Bush deficits total $2,133.9B through 2008 while the Obama deficits total $5,0635.5B – and Obama is doing that just in FOUR YEARS!!

I'll even help you out some more. Assume that Obama more or less inherited the 2009 budget, and assign that deficit to Bush. Then the Bush deficits come to $3,546.6B while the Obama deficits come to $3,650.8B. So even when I bend over backwards cutting you a break, the Obama deficits still trump the Bush deficits. And Obama is accumulating his red ink in half the time that Bush did.

The data is from p. 22-25 in the link below. So, explain to us again how Bush created this problem in 2001-2006?

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy11/pdf/hist.pdf

Gee Bill, what happens when you throw 2 "off budget" wars and an unfunded Medicare drug plan onto the books and start to show them as honest accounting would dictate?

Hint: You suddenly see an enormous increase in the "official" deficit.

Proof: The wars ALONE cost more than the deficits shown above...without having leveled any taxes to pay for them.

Bill ,

May I suggest that you get you facts from a U.S Government site. These numbers are incorrect. The dept grew more under W. Bush than any other President.

Ummm Job1, the data IS from a government site. Umm, you might notice on the first page it says Office of Management and Budget. That's cuz the data is from the FY11 U.S. budget. Enjoy.

So John B, is it your position that "off budget" expenses for the wars are not included in these figures? Prove it.

Bill, the proof is in Obama's first budget message - 2009. Remember his transparency in budgeting promise? An awful lot of us liberal, socialists, Obama worshipers said at the time that he will be blamed for the resulting ballooning deficit. And Voilla!

It isn't "my position" Bill, it's the facts;

For his first annual budget next week, President Obama has banned four accounting gimmicks that President George W. Bush used to make deficit projections look smaller. The price of more honest bookkeeping: A budget that is $2.7 trillion deeper in the red over the next decade than it would otherwise appear, according to administration officials.

The new accounting involves spending on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Medicare reimbursements to physicians and the cost of disaster responses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/us/politics/20budget.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss

There are plenty of other sources to back this up, including this one;

In his address last night on the economic crisis, President Barack Obama made it official: No more budgetary sleight-of-hand at the Pentagon.

As we have noted here before, the U.S. military has largely paid for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan through emergency spending measures, in effect keeping wartime costs off the books. In addition to masking skyrocketing budget growth at the Department of Defense, this process has allowed the services to treat budget supplementals as a piggy bank for new procurement. Members of Congress may have grumbled about poor oversight, but they have largely acquiesced.

Obama’s message? Not anymore.

"That is why this budget looks ahead ten years and accounts for spending that was left out under the old rules – and for the first time, that includes the full cost of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan," he said. "For seven years, we have been a nation at war. No longer will we hide its price."

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/02/weighing-the-ir/

I didn't dream this, people dreamed that Republicans are fiscally responsible.

Thanks for sharing your 'chain e-mail'. I got three copies, how many did you get?

Sweet! ;o)

PS: Of course you want voters to stay home - it's what all the State Teapubican voter suppression laws are meant to do.

Sorry it's ain't gonna work - not NOW - not EVER!

damage is right , remember (w) , and what he left , when this President came into office ? hey guys watch me hit this 9 arn .

Nice piece of work. JoAnna should be along any time now to accuse you of plagiarism. Enjoy.

Even better...this dumb thing is almost 2 years old!

If you enjoyed the chain mail, you'll enjoy the fact-checking...

www.factcheck.org/2011/06/obamas-bumbles/

You're right, Feisty. I should have cut and pasted from Think Progress.

Wasn't it the posters from the right on this forum who chided people for:

- cutting and pasting

- posting without a source

- posting non-factual information

- blaming everything on someone else

Pat, if the entire tax rates were raised, would this be a tax increase or not? If you pay $3.75 a gallon tomorrow for gas and today you paid $3.50 a gallon, did the price go up?

In your logic regarding "tax hikes", it did not go up because afterall, the price had been $3.75 before.

what the heck are you two talking about?

If that is to me, rick, the question is whether or not an increase in the rate is a raise or not.

You're playing word games, Danno. If a TEMPORARY tax cut expires, why is that a "tax increase." IT ISN'T--it's the scheduled end of something that was meant to be short term.

That's the game Republicans are playing...pretending something is temporary when it's passed, treating it as permanent when it expires.

Sounds like a real whine festival...

The (soon to proven hollow) threats, the grandstanding and histrionics have the look and feel of the WWF or "Monday Night Raw", don't they?

And while the fans rail at each other over their "champion", the "players" work out their choreography and determine the winners and losers before the match begins...

Gee, I hope that doesn't sound too cynical...

Anna Molly, That is just great a republican getting union money must be a rhino. How about all the democrats that get money from big corporations especially Obama. The problem is both parties are guilty of taking money from corporations and unions. Wouldn't you agree that is one of the reasons we , the people can't count on our elected officials from either party to get the job done.

The ever old argument that republicans want to starve people, kill grandma and kill education is always prevelent on the left. Even the President used these arguments again yesterday. Too bad the American public buys into the crap.

bookem - but obama said he didn't partake in fear mongering. lol!

Nashville - nice try at a strawman argument. Perhaps you can answer the following question for us...

Nashville, yes or no (I want to keep it simple for you)..."have you stopped beating your significant other yet?"

BTW - I don't recall anyone claiming that our debt was obamas fault, but his continual efforts to ignore it by wanting to keep on spending is. There does come a time to address the problem and not just keep on wanting to make "investments for the future" or to not address money pits.

I can see that all the rightr has to do next year is to bring up obamas campaign and fund raising itinary while congress leads. Such a good selling point for what obama cares about and how he views what being potus is ll about.

I don't recall anyone claiming that our debt was obamas fault,

Then you have a short memory. From 6.10;

Then the Bush deficits come to $3,546.6B while the Obama deficits come to $3,650.8B. So even when I bend over backwards cutting you a break, the Obama deficits still trump the Bush deficits. And Obama is accumulating his red ink in half the time that Bush did.

And yet obama is off on another campaign and fund raising trip. Perhaps congress is merely following obamas lead, however it would appear that the senate is not taking recess.

God morning Nash,

Great Point.

Hey Job1 . . . thanks! :o)

ike - thanks for proving bears point

Thanks bearbryant, that explains a great deal about the GW Bush administration, where "we make our own reality."

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html

Youu might actually look at his schedule. I guess campaign raising is working? LOL.

Right! And don't forget golf or touring the world.

Watching this debate IMO unless the GOP actually compromises about agreeing to raising taxes this is going to be a deadlock. It is hard to lead any group that is at a stand still. What more can Obama do but to use the bully pulpit to take his case to the American people?

People on the GOP side who call for Obama's leadership clearly do not want it unless he agrees exactly with them. A leader, my definition, is someone who looks at both sides of an issue and meets the otherside halfway. That has been done because he has agreed to billions and billions in cuts yet the GOP can't agree to a red cent in tax increases.

Obama has been at work and tried to deal with issues. On the other hand the House has named 15 buildings after people and passed a budget that will never be accepted in the Senate.

Much of what we see is just theater for the masses, but even if "the play's the thing" there should be a strong main character...

You said;

A leader, my definition, is someone who looks at both sides of an issue and meets the otherside halfway.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Sorry YD, but I must disagree. That may be true sometimes but that certainly wasn't the case with the ACA (Affordable Care act) , was it? There was no compromise there except intra-party.

Likewise The NEW DEAL, MEDICARE, VOTING RIGHTS ACT...important legislation needs strong leadership, and a clear message IMO.

Dis you read the Gloria Borger piece today in Time?

Sorry YD, but I must disagree. That may be true sometimes but that certainly wasn't the case with the ACA (Affordable Care act) , was it? There was no compromise there except intra-party.

The one time I see Obama having a clear message and pushing back more than usual, the GOP say that he is too left leaning and confrontational. I know you are a Dem, dangerfield, I'm talking broadly here.

I've complained about Obama, didn't like the tax cut extension, didn't like the surges in Afganistan, didn't like him throwing away an opportunity to draw down more there, didn't like his naive positions on Israel's borders, didn't like the HCA waivers and lack of public option, don't like his continuation of GWB war of terror policies, I didn't like him ignoring the Debt commission. But when I agree with him I will say so.

If we are looking for complete and total fairness then there needs to be an arbiter not a leader to get an agreement out of this.

I don't see a complete non partisan that will act the role of arbiter.

Mark-

I'm not talking fairness or non-partisanship, certainly the examples above are of what were at the time (if not now, oy vey!) controversial legislation.

The president is the macro-guy, that's what he's supposed to be. The executive branch is supposed to set the national agenda and the president is supposed to use his "bully pulpit" to rally the people and their elected representatives behind that vision/agenda, no?

Has the president made a persuasive case vis-a-vis, the debt ceiling and the consequences? Has he made a persuasive pitch to the people explaining directly the current circumstances, our options, framed the opposition's position and why he is right and they are wrong?

For me he has made the arguement that if the debt ceiling is not raised there will be dire consequences. For some in Congress who say we need to only worry about only paying interest on it they are not forseeing all of the repercussions. Perhaps some in the GOP are more concerned about the NFL and NBA lockout. Some sure don't seem to concerned about it all.

Others are using it, threat of not signing onto the debt raising, as a means to cut, cut, cut and make sure that for the long term an agreement is made to not cut taxes.

I did read the Borger piece. I guess it rings true Obama talked about small things corporate jet tax breaks, oil subsidies but not the whole picture. However, that is what people will understand. There really isn't a way to do a comprehensive lecture on specifically what he will do in an hour presser.

It goes back to what you and others have said recently and I tend to agree, he should have accepted the Debt commission as a base for long term debt solution. It would start the conversation on amount of cuts and tax reforms/increases. I guess he can still do it. Don't have much faith in the Conrad plan coming out.

Nice talking.

Mark,

Thanks...you too..

I think Mark Shields hit nail on the head on the topic Friday...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

MARK SHIELDS: But, right now, what we have, Jim, is we have an American public that doesn't believe the debt ceiling ought to be -- every measurement, by 2-1, they do not think it ought to be raised, Democrats, Republicans, independents.

And what you have got to do is convince people of the consequences if it isn't raised. And that means that the fighting people that Bob Gates discussed with you in the interview last night who are taking all the strain, stress, and sacrifice, they won't be paid. Their families won't be paid. Social Security won't be paid.

And they have got to drive that home. This is going to force the president to do something which the president is reluctant to do. And that's lay out rather bright lines what he's for. He likes to play -- be the ultimate conciliator, bringing people together. It's a natural role for him and one he does quite well. But this, I think, forces him out.

DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I think this has been one of the core weaknesses of his presidency, that he has not gotten out on front of this issue.

If you look at what -- the way Chris Christie governed New Jersey, you may not like the bill he passed into law this week, but he was out there with 30 town hall meeting, with charts, with explaining, here's our situation, and here's my plan.

I think that's the way you lead. And I don't Obama has done this. I don't understand the passivity, except it's become part of a pattern for the administration. But, at some point, he has got to get out and explain, A., here's our debt situation; B., here's the seriousness of the -- if we default.

JIM LEHRER: If we -- yes.

DAVID BROOKS: And no one else can do that. And, hopefully, he will start to do it, but he really hasn't. And he hasn't taken any risks.

And until he takes a risk, the Republicans are really hesitant to take any risks. And just -- so, finally, I'm not too worried about what's happening this week about the walkouts.

JIM LEHRER: Sure.

DAVID BROOKS: That's part of the script. But I am very pessimistic -- or moderately pessimistic about this coming next couple months. I really think they're much farther away than we all assume.

If you talk to conventional wisdom around here, conventional wisdom on Wall Street, everyone says, oh, the effects are so catastrophic, they will never not do a deal.

I think it's possible that we will have a period...

JIM LEHRER: You think it's possible?

MARK SHIELDS: I think, in the final analysis, we may -- we may go a week or two weeks or even, you know -- and have to see some of the dire consequences.

But I just remind people that, in the past 20 years, there was a little short fellow with a buzz haircut from Texas who walked out with some charts named Ross Perot. And he not only took that issue. He put it on the national agenda and forced both parties to address it...

JIM LEHRER: To deal with it.

MARK SHIELDS: ... and led in the polls.

It can be done. And that was at a time when the consequences were far less severe than they are now.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/jan-june11/sandb_06-24.html

Yellowdog - the house and senate (R) has little choice in not using the debt ceiling as a negotiating avenue. The FY 2011 budget ended up being a debacle in creating any meaningful cuts, why should Americans believe that bidens $ 1 trillion number be veiwed as anything different?

It would appear that a more balanced approach would be to take The $1 trillion in cuts now (by 2013) with the proviso that an additional $4 to 5 trillion in cuts be made in 2013 going forward along with reductions in the number of allowable tax deductions accross the board. This should fall within what obamas 2.0 plan was with a mix of 75% in cuts and 25% in increased revenue.

Last night on charlie rose sen tom coburn pointed out that a $4-5 trillion reduction plan was needed to just start the US down a path of debt reduction and that a $8-9 trillion reduction was what was really needed (he also commented that the 8-9 trillion plan wasn't feasable). He also made note of the fact that not all tax deductions impacted economic growth in a positive way.

Just some food for thought to our fellow posters.

I have an idea- why don't we end the subsidy for Media Matters? I understand it is about $3million a year. Why are we subsidizing it?

I'm being facetious, of course. Media Matters is set up as a 501(c)3- although I fail to see how it is a charity- and therefore owes no taxes.

Your "oil subsidies" are legitimate tax deductions. They keep money they EARN.

Unlike GE, which got. Refundable tax credit by buying Volts, among other such "green" write offs, the oil companies did, in fact, pay taxes.

Do away with the tax deductions if you like. I am sure the electorate will be happy to pay the difference at the pump. After all, gas is cheap, right?

Enough already playing this blame game. You Democrats had both the house and senate, you all could of had a budget out already way before. But all you Liberal Left Democrats focused on Obamacare, pork spending, cash for clunkers the shovel ready jobs and stimulus package which was total failure and now the liberal media and Obama, Democrats want to play this blame game because the Republicans have some of the power in Washington. As a Independent I find the MEDIA,OBAMA, DEMOCRATS,LEFT a bunch of children and using nasty rhetoric because they can't get their own way anymore. SHAME ON YOU PATHETIC IDIOTS.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great, nojo.

Hey - I have an idea too; lets do away with law enforcement, FBI, CIA, DHS, etc.
That way when an indigent starving citizen robs a wealthy person there will be no repercussions. We can also save a lot by not having to spend for trials, judges, public defenders and juries.

Think that might help reduce our debt and spending?

BTW: the GE comment appears to be at variance with the official Republican position/Norquist pledge of no new taxes... or do I miscomprehend what you are attempting to say?

Not, your argument about law enforcement is specious on it's face. The indigent, starving citizen who robs a wealthly person would be the purview of the local police and not the FBI, CIA, DHS, etc. Those trials and judges are also local government.

"Tax the rich, feed the poor, til there are no rich no more" seems to be the mantra and goal of the left. Instead of people striving to be "the rich", they would rather have everyone equal - equally poor.

""Tax the rich, feed the poor, til there are no rich no more" seems to be the mantra and goal of the left. "

No, but that was a great song by Alvin Lee & 10 yrs. after.

And, Booken', I was just participating in the facetiousness with nojo, but kind of kidding on the square. Cuts will have to be made; no Democrat denys that fact. But priorities must be set, and taking care of the more unfortunate of our citizens is a primary priority of this great nation; it is a statement of who we are AND what we are about. In fact, in a sense, that is why there IS a United States of America.

It is the gamemanship and partisan politics that really ruffles the feathers of the average voter. The entire nation - whether agreeing or disagreeing - sees that there is a strong, but less than majority, faction in this nation who are not ready for a black President, no matter how they twist and spin and rationalize why Obama should only be a one term Pres. The truth is manifest in their actions and attitudes. The effort to show him as "do nothing" and unsuccessful is also overtly visible to us, and because it harms this country, is highly resented and appears to be very unpatriotic. To exacerbate the situation, when it is the former "America, right or wrong" and "love it or leave it" advocates (that Alvin Lee was singing about back in the day, btw) who are now spouting "ONE TERM" etc., the hippocrasy is almost unbearable, but makes the factual position of the spouters transparent.

Is is possible to get clear rebuttal to this and factual answer to the four questions? We will see I guess.

35 hours and no takers, no answers to the four questions.

Expected.

Seems all the loud talk by the wingnuts on here is just a lot of hot air with no substance. Sad, but apparently an admission that the Republicans' "strong stand" position is untennable.

The ceiling will be raised;

the economy will continue to improve and unemployment will go down;

President Obama will be elected to a second term, probably by a landslide "mandate" vote.

Count on it.

Maybe he should had read his own policy he signed of what happens when we have no federal budget. Only non-critical departments are affected.

IS that why the gop senators filibustered Bush last 2 budgets, forcing continuing resolution, which continue the previous year's spending??

FYI congress main job is to pass a budget. So maybe when you say non-productive you might ask why there was NO budget for 2009-2010.

That's probably 30 new jobs--15 for the people who make the new signs for the buildings and 15 for the people who hang the signs.

so youre saying spend more--ignore the 14.4 trillion dollar debt--more brilliant liberal ideas.....

tax the top at 100% does not even make a dent in the debt.

keep burying your heads in the sand----youre kids will pay for it.

Ike, you ignore that he countries economic growth was substantial post Reagan. You want to blame him for the ills of the over-spending and over-burdensome government, but you fail to note the actual growth of the private sector during this period. Instead you would push for trickle-up poverty where everyone is equally poor.

And Tom....why don't you go back and take a look at what Obama said about raising the debt ceiling before he voted AGAINST it?

A failure in leadership....Those are HIS words, not any Republicans.

Oh wait....it's not a failure in leadership when it's Obama wanting to raise the debt ceiling, after blowing 830 billion TAXPAYER dollars (with interest) on a "stimulus", three RECORD deficit spending budgets, and over 5 Trillion dollars borrowed).

And if you check Tom....it was under REPUBLICAN leadership that this nation had a balanced budget and was paying off the debt. It was under REPUBLICAN leadership that unemployment went BELOW 4%. But all you on the left give Clinton the credit for that, despite the fact that he actually shut the government down rather than sign off on a balanced budget amendment.

And the economy "crashed" because Democrats protected Fannie and Freddie and all the rest as they bought up hundreds of billions of dollars in BAD mortgages. As the Democrats ensured that there would actually be a housing "bubble" by demanding that banks actually back bad mortgages because, after all, according to Barney Frank, "every American has a RIGHT to own a home". And then it all collapsed under it's own weight.

And you dummies on the left don't pay attention to the fact that Fannie and Freddie have lost over 180 BILLION taxpayer dollars, are STILL unregulated, and are STILL losing around 2 BILLION taxpayer dollars every month.

Nope, all of you call that "recovery".

Every Congressman or Senator that has spent any amount of time in office has voted both for and against raising the debt ceiling. If you want to hold Obama to voting against it, then also hold all the GOP members who repeatedly voted for it. Knowing it has enough votes to pass, the minority party always have several people who vote and rally against it. That's politics. Threatening to shut down the economy is way beyond politics. It's playing chicken with dire consequences.

The limit has been raised hundreds of times due to inflation, war spending, and other reasons. This is not the first or the last time it will come up and treating it like some kind of rare event in disingenuous.

The GOP will with their feet held to the fire will surely have to vote to raise it at least for some short term. The poor GOP is in a tough spot, though. If they do increase taxes on the top 1%, they could lose their base, but if they don't the majority of voters who do approve of rolling back tax cuts to the top tier will hold that against them in the polls.

mike - the republicans want to shut down government?? Don't you have that backwards? Seems that the republicans are getting tired of kicking the can down the road and the democrats want to keep on kicking. The real question is let's address the debt now rather than when there are no options left a few years from now.

pat...why don't you go back and take a look at history instead of making garbage up?

It was Democrats that decided to "borrow" against Social Security and fill it up with IOU's that now can't be paid back.

It was Democrats who decided that instead of just being for the retirement of seniors (that actually PAID into it) that Social Security should be used for a whole variety of "social justice" causes.

If INSTEAD of having you on the left DEMAND that my Social Security be taken out and given to the government for THEIR use I had been allowed to invest it where I wanted to, at age 65 I'd be a millionaire instead of looking at getting $973 a month check.

People like you, with you idiotic conspiracy theories show exactly how dumb the left really is.

But I'm sure that Feisty and all the rest think that you're just "brilliant".

From the moment Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid were passed conservatives clammered together a strategy that would lead to their demise and eradication

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear Professor,

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/28/howard-dean/dean-claims-social-security-and-medicare-were-pass/

Nevertheless, on Aug. 8, 1935, the conference report — the final version of the bill that melds together changes made in the House and in the Senate — passed in the House 372-33, with 81 Republicans voting in support. The next day, the bill was passed in the Senate 77-6, with 16 Republicans supporting the legislation. So Social Security did pass with Republican support.

snip

Thirty years later, a significant number of Republicans voted in favor of the Medicare bill. The House adopted the conference report on July 27, 1965, 307-116, with 70 Republicans supporting it. And on July 28, the Senate adopted the final version of the bill by a vote of 70-24, with 13 Republicans in favor of the bill. President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Medicare bill into law on July 30, 1965.

snip

So we find Dean is glossing over the details and exaggerating the partisan split. Both Social Security and Medicare were indeed championed by Democrats, but passed with the help of Republican votes. And while some GOP members waited until the last minute to support Medicare, it was backed by half the Republicans on the Senate committee. So we find Dean's statement False.

But I'm not calling you a liar...your statement is just FALSE...

When did assigning blame replace finding solutions as our national pastime...

Cheril...you must have your head up your you know what with the garbage pail of lies you just posted. Try educating yourself instead of being a Fox news whore!

That's right dangerfield.

It's ANOTHER vast right wing conspiracy.

patHuntingtonNY

Cheril...you must have your head up your you know what with the garbage pail of lies you just posted. Try educating yourself instead of being a Fox news whore!

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Hey Pat, I'm no expert here, but I think you maybe went a smidgen over the line here...

AM, what do you think?

and it already has 3 votes...

dangerfield, instead of INSULTING me, why don't you do a little RESEARCH?

Instead of just repeating the lies that you're told to by your handlers.

You don't even TRY to refute what I posted, instead you attack me for even putting it out there. Show me where I'm WRONG before you throw your putrid filth.

At least ATTEMPT to debate like an intelligent human being, instead of just being another hate filled left wing drone.

CherylLM

You win today's "Emily Litella" award...

You're attacking me for criticizing the post that said the bad stuff...read again...carefully this time...

Sad that you prove to be no less odious than your attacker...oh well that is the one thing that seems to be bi-partisan here...:)

This is First Read!

An attack post calling someone a "whore" gets a star and My post criticizing the term gets ME attacked by the person I was trying to defend...

Does anyone know if it's a full moon?

danger - must be in the scrolling or presentation.

Why is it that none of you here can understand that every one of them does the same thing regardless of party? As long as you are still living in the dark ages about political parties, nothing will change. This isn't a Dem vs Rep problem, this is an US vs THEM problem. Until you realize that, this country will never change. I repeat, every last one of them, no matter what party, does the exact same thing. Not a single one of them cares about anything other than keeping their job with the nice perks. They love slinging names back and forth and working hard to destroy reputations of innocent people. They care nothing for you or I. If you think otherwise, you are living in the dark ages.

Remember Nancy Pelosi telling us that "nothing was wrong with social security...don't let congress allow people to put some of their social security money into the stock market---because we could lose it"? Now last night I hear the President say, "If we don't raise the debit limit social security checks won't go out"...now why is that...evidently our social security money has been spent...they have to borrow money to pay us!

Yeah let's go back and look at putting some of our social security money into the stock market, and when they tell us "you don't want to do that, you could lose some it", tell them evidently WE HAVE ALREADY LOST ALL OF IT!

I remember Pelosy saying "lets vote for this bill and read it later."

The wrong went for it. The right will strike it down.

I should have learned by now that the left wrong don't want to discuss any issues. They only want to dictate what they believe is right, even though it is wrong, and will not respond to anyone defying them. That is dictatorship to the extreme. They say they want compromise but they really only want compromise from everyone else. They have not the nits to enter discourse, because they know they cannot back anything they say with facts because they only live for hype.

MSNBC thrives on hype and will never rise above a 3rd rate propaganda organization because it can't handle truth. It is the Enquirer of the internet. Bogus reporters, shill responders, blackout descent, protect the wrong, suck up to the gullible, trounce the intelligent. It is an agent of the wrong, the perpetual welfare, the lazy, the God haters. Basically it sucks up to the scum of the earth and wants them to feel like something other than scum.

I will probably get banned for telling the truth again because the truth is not tolerated here.

Bob3374873,

There are new discussions everyday. Not everyone participate on the w/e or nights. If you hate MSNBC so much and think so little of the site, why are you here? Maybe you are not getting any responses because the ones you are attempting to reach............... (.Bogus reporters, shill responders, blackout descent, protect the wrong, suck up to the gullible, trounce the intelligent. It is an agent of the wrong, the perpetual welfare, the lazy, the God haters. Basically it sucks up to the scum of the earth and wants them to feel like something other than scum.) does not exist on this site.

Don't you think you would be much better off, going to another site to satisfy your need for attention? You are here looking for scum. They were never here or ever will be.

Is that the best response you have? No debate?

I am not here looking for scum. That is too easy. I'm here looking for some kind of intelligent thought, discussion. What are you here for? To tell me to go away, that you have no intelligent thought and incapable of discussion? To tell us how to fix this mess politicians and the people got us into?

I don't hate anyone. Who do you hate and why?