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Subscribe to RSSDems in retreat… They draw another line in the sand, but will we see another concession?... Democrats reply: They might be losing this negotiating battle, but they could end up winning the larger war… Today’s House vote on the Boehner bill is expected early this evening, and the momentum appears to be on Boehner’s side… Reid’s two options if Boehner’s legislation passes… Romney still hasn’t taken a position on the Boehner bill… Cain apologizes… DNC seizes on bundler transparency… And Palin to return to Iowa in September.
*** In retreat: In this debt debate, who’s up one day can quickly go down the next -- and vice versa. That’s why, after we wrote yesterday that House Speaker John Boehner was boxed in, he now appears likely to get his legislation through the House today (he turned things around the old fashioned way; he willed it). But when you take a step back from the hour-by-hour movements in this debate, it’s obvious how much ground the White House and Democrats have conceded. First, they retreated on their push for a clean debt-ceiling raise. Then they retreated on the size of the spending cuts (now both sides say the cuts must equal or exceed the eventual debt-limit hike). Then they backed away from insisting that tax revenues be included in the final package (both the Boehner and Reid plans exclude them). And now it seems that their final line in the sand is insisting that the debt ceiling must -- in one step -- be raised beyond 2012, versus Boehner’s two-step approach, which would guarantee another debt showdown early next year.
*** Another line in the sand, and another retreat? Yesterday afternoon, the entire Dem Senate caucus -- the 51 Democrats and two Dem-leaning independents -- signed a letter to Boehner saying they’d oppose his legislation if it gets to their chamber. “A short-term extension like the one in your bill would put America at risk, along with every family and business in it,” the letter states. “Your approach would force us once again to face the threat of default in five or six short months. Every day, another expert warns us that your short-term approach could be nearly as disastrous as a default and would lead to a downgrade in our credit rating.” But will Democrats once again blink? Bottom line: It looks like they’ve gotten their clocks cleaned in these negotiations, and Republicans are once again counting on Democrats to retreat. The one thing that could bail out Democrats: that the GOP doesn't know when to declare victory and walk away from the blackjack table.
*** Losing the debt battle, but winning the larger war? Democrats admit that this entire debt battle hasn’t been a big winner for them. But they argue that they could end up winning the longer-term war. They point to polls showing them winning the actual tax debate (that the public wants balance and is willing to pay higher taxes); they say they could still get their revenues through the commission the eventual legislation sets up, or with the expiration of the Bush tax cuts (if Obama wins in 2012); and they contend that the president likely comes out this messy debate looking better than anyone in Congress. In large part, Republicans have gained the upper hand in this game of chicken, because they’ve proved that their Tea Party is tying their hands to the steering wheel (and Republicans have proven adept at using the "we can't control these guys" negotiating strategy). But Democrats could wield this argument in 2012: No matter how much ground they gave up, they protected the country from the guys who were willing to crash both cars.
*** Today’s House vote on the Boehner bill: As for today’s House vote on Boehner’s legislation, NBC’s Frank Thorp reports that it’s expected to occur in the early evening. There are 10 bills and seven amendments that the House will consider today in addition to Boehner’s bill, and the last votes are scheduled to be between 6:00 pm and 7:00 pm ET. So it would make sense for them to wait until then, Thorp says, so they can use as much of the day to whip for more votes. Anecdotally, it appears that Boehner’s motivational speeches, the GOP whipping, and even “The Town” reenactment have worked to shift the momentum to get the 217 votes Boehner needs. “In a meeting with House Republicans on Wednesday morning, Mr. Boehner and the majority leader, Representative Eric Cantor, scolded members for allowing Democrats to unify in protest against them,” the New York Times recounts. “‘This is the bill,’ Mr. Boehner said, according to those who attended the meeting, who said he advised them to ‘get your ass in line.’”
*** Reid’s two options: So what happens if Boehner’s bill passes the House? Harry Reid and Senate Democrats essentially have two options. One, they could schedule a vote on it, and try to vote it down -- proving that it can’t pass the Senate. Or Reid and the Dems could take the Boehner bill and amend it. Right now, we’re hearing that they would probably pursue Option 2.
*** Romney still hasn’t taken a position on Boehner’s bill: NBC’s Garrett Haake reported that Mitt Romney told reporters in Ohio yesterday that he would not comment on the debt negotiations in Washington. And so far, he has refused to either endorse Boehner’s legislation (as Huntsman has done) or oppose it (as Pawlenty and Bachman have done). Our question: How does someone who wants to be the leader of the Republican Party not have a position on one of the biggest issues facing Washington, especially after the dueling primetime speeches by Obama and Boehner? It's actually quite surprising; this isn't just another Washington fight. Is the lack of a position proof of how fragile Team Romney believes its front-runner status is right now?
*** Cain apologizes: In other 2012 news, Herman Cain apologized “to Muslim leaders for vitriolic remarks he made about Islam while campaigning for the presidential nomination,” the AP writes. “On Wednesday, Cain met with four Muslim leaders in Sterling, Va. He said in a statement later he was ‘truly sorry’ for comments that may have ‘betrayed’ his commitment to the Constitution and the religious freedom it guarantees. He also acknowledged that Muslims, ‘like all Americans,’ have the right to practice freely their faith and that most Muslim Americans are peaceful and patriotic.
*** DNC seizes on bundler transparency: At 12:15 pm ET today, DNC Chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz will hold a conference call with reporters, emphasizing that all the GOP presidential candidates have so far refused to reveal their fundraising bundlers. By contrast, the Obama campaign has revealed its bundlers.
*** On the 2012 trail: Pawlenty and Santorum remain in Iowa… McCottter joins them in the Hawkeye State… Gingrich is still in Georgia… Bachmann, in DC, addresses the National Press Club… And Romney’s wife, Ann, stumps in New Hampshire.
*** Palin to return to Iowa: In “Summer of Speculation” news, Sarah Palin is headed back to Iowa on Sept. 3. She will be the keynote speaker at a Tea Party of America event in Waukee. The Des Moines Register: “Political strategists from both parties agree the former Alaskan governor and 2008 Republican vice presidential candidate risks falling flat in organizing a presidential campaign in Iowa if she plays the waiting game beyond her next visit.” Also today, in New Hampshire, former New York Gov. George Pataki holds a roundtable discussion on the debt the New Hampshire Institute of Politics at Saint Anselm College.
*** Thursday’s “Daily Rundown” line-up: White House Senior Adviser David Plouffe on the debt deliberations… Former Reps. Tom Davis (R-VA) & Martin Frost (D-TX) on how Hill leaders whip a vote like this… 2012 and more with National Journal’s Major Garrett, N.Y. Times’ Helene Cooper, and L.A. Times’ Matea Gold.
*** Thursday’s “Andrea Mitchell Reports” line-up: Meanwhile, NBC’s Andrea Mitchell interviews GOP Sen. John Thune, Dem Congressman Chris Van Hollen, and GOP Sen. Mike Crapo.
Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for GOP senators: 12 days
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Countdown to Wisconsin recall general for Dem senators: 29 days
Countdown to NV-2 and NY-9 special elections: 47 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 103 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 193 days
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Signing pledges, ignoring polls, and now comes the most recent revelation on how the tea baggers
continue to whistle past the grave yard…
Appears these mental midgets are listening to everyone BUT their constituents!
Pay extra close attention America – this is the result of VOTER complacency! Rep. Walsh only won his district by 291 votes!
Hardly a MANDATE!
The next time your representative signs a 'double pinkie' blood oath to some 'nobody' you might want to rethink your vote prior to pulling the lever!
They certainly do NOT have YOUR best interests in mind...
"Stuck in the middle with you"
Yesterday was not one of John Boehner's better days. First Thoughts accurately described Boehner as being boxed in. Kind of reminded me of Bob Dylan's song, "Stuck in the middle with you". Clowns to the left of me (Wall Street money), Jokers to the right (the Tea Party); and there is John, stuck in the middle of a divided Republican Party.
The "clowns" are becoming more nervous as groups like the National Association of Manufacturers are demanding that John raise the debt ceiling. After all, the stock market is dropping like a rock and corporations do not make money when the economy is failing.
Then the "jokers" to the right don't really care if the government fails to meet its obligations. Speaking of jokers; we have Senators David Vitter, Rand Paul and Mike Lee, representing Club for Growth and the Heritage Foundation, standing in front of the Capital Building urging the Tea Party to insist on a balanced budget amendment. That notion is so crazy, even John McCain stood up on the Senate floor to call his fellow senators foolish and unrealistic.
To make matters worse for Boehner, the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) reported that the Harry Reid debt ceiling plan would save considerable more money than John's plan. It was not a good day for John.
With less than a week to go, Congress should be moving toward the end-game, but they are not there yet. Both sides are proving that Congress is broken. Personally, I believe that the debt ceiling will be raised. Either by a simple, clean bill that changes the numbers from the previously approved simple, clean bill or President Obama invoking the 14th Amendment by executive order. How's that for increasing the powers of the President? I bet the jokers to the right won't like that option.
The two articles from ThinkProgress say it all on where we are and where we are going. The DOW dropped 198 yesterday and the dollar has weakened. Buckle in People this roller coaster ride is about to begin and there are no parachutes.
I KEEP TELLING YOU THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE DEBT CEILING – IT IS ABOUT CHANGING THE GOVERNMENT AS WE KNOW IT BY GUTTING ENTITLEMENTS, EDUCATION, DOD, VETERANS BENEFITS, 50+ SOCIAL SAFETY NETS INCLUDING FOODSTAMPS, MEDICAL RESEARCH, LAW ENFORCEMENTS, FEMA, FAA, CDC, FOOD AND PRODUCT SAFETY, REPEALING REGULATIONS THAT CONTROL WALL STREET AND BIG BUSINESS ETC ETC. IT IS A MOVE TO INCREASE THE POWER AND WEALTH OF A SELECT FEW AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MAJORITY. IT WILL INCREASE UNEMPLOYMENT AND STALL OR COLLAPSE THE ECONOMY FOR THEIR OWN POLITICAL GAIN.
THE GOP/TP PARTY IS BETTING AGAINST THIS COUNTRY. THEY ARE ASSAULTING OUR VERY WAY OF LIFE AND THE “AMERICAN DREAM” TRYING TO TURN IT INTO A “NIGHTMARE”. THEY ARE ANTI-GAY, ANTI-UNION, ANTI-WOMEN’S RIGHTS, ANTI- RELIGIOUS TOLERANT, ANTI-VOTER RIGHTS, ANTI-EDUCATION, ANTI-SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY, ETC ETC. THE ONLY THINGS THEY SEEM TO SUPPORT IS THE REDISTRIBUTION OF POWER AND WEALTH TO A SELECT FEW AND THEIR OATH TO NORQUIST OVER THEIR OATH TO AMERICA. THEIR CURRENT RECORD PROVES THIS BEYOND ANY REASONABLE DOUBT – PERIOD.
Feisty/Ron:
Great posts. This circus has to stop.
This is what happens when you have politicians that take oaths to outside power brokers and ignore their oath to this country.
The GOP/TP is not concerned with the Debt Ceiling. They are concerned with keeping their handlers happy so come 2012 they get oodles of money or do not have to face a competitor in their elections. The Tea Party has mistaken ideology for leadership and we are paying the price for their folly.
THe DOW is down, the dollar is weaker and this is going to get worse. Just watch.
Straight out of the mouths of the party of male, stale & pale:
When MSNBC’s Andrea Mitchell confronted him on the absurdity of trying to lower the borrowing limit on money Congress has already spent, Broun insisted that government has to act like a person who is “overextended” would:
If this isn't an indication of SINCERELY out of touch these tea baggers are with every day Americans, I don't know what is!
Country club dues? WTF???
Meanwhile, back on planet Earth...
Most Americans are struggling to keep a roof over their head & food on the table for their families...
Go sit down Broun!
The Boehner bill is most likely going to pass in the House and die in the Senate. Like wise the Reid bill is favored in the Senate and will Die in the House.
Now, we are again at another in pass. So, the solution is to pass a clean debt-ceiling raise.
In the current debt/budget discussions, Obama blames everything on something else for the failing economy. To Obama, everything is the fault of the GOP, the weather, the earthquakes, Grover Norquist, the Tea Party, corporations, small businesses, John Boehner, corporate jets, oil companies, the Supreme Court, the Koch brothers, and the people that pay most of the taxes that won't pay more taxes. But it's never Obama's fault. He takes no responsibility for any of his failed policies.
1.5 more years of this failure of a president.
Sounds like you're hoping for America to fail Navy, simply to score a political point. On a good note though, jobless claims fell below 400,000.
Fiesty, On Morning Jo , they had Lawrence O'Donnell, David Walker and Grover Norquist. Found out Joe signed Grover's pledge. Grover said he would "primary" Joe if he was still in Congress and he would vote to closing tax loop holes.
Can't wait for the Last Word show tonight. Lawrence was calling Grover out on his stronghold on the Repub "NO New Taxes". He even said he could see a situation where you would not raise the debt ceiling, but it was this time.
It was incredible tv theater this am
This is such a stupid waste of time and money, but then again this is exactly what the GOP/TP wants - to stall the processes.
Right now 53 Democratic Senators have vowed to vote against the Boehner Bill. These guys may think they are winning the battles but they are losing the war and they will be held responsible for this mess just like the people are now starting to hold them responsible for the failed administration of the previous President.
Our current debt is so high because of two unfunded wars, two unfunded tax cuts, an unfunded drug bill and lax regulations. That is the bottom line and entities like CBPP, CBO, CEPR and a bevy of economists say so. These guys can no longer hide behind their idle Rhetoric.
The people are starting to see these guys for what they really are and they feel cheated and lied too by the right. No kidding. All you have to do is look at their current record to see all the broken promises and lies.
This is not over in a long shot.
From the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, on Boehner's budget proposal:
"House Speaker John Boehner's new budget proposal would require deep cuts in the years immediately ahead including Social Security and Medicare benefits for current retirees, the repeal of health care reform's coverage expenses, or wholesale evisceration of basic assistance programs for vulnerable Americans. The plan is, thus, tantamount to a form of "class warfare". If enacted, it could well produce the greatest increase in poverty and hardship produced by any law in modern history. This may sound hyperbolic, but it is not. The mathematics are inexorable."
Robert Greenstein.
Yeah, now the truth behind Obama's strange behavior comes out. It's not about all the people that are suffering under Obama's failed policies, its not about getting a difficult problem solved, it's not about bargaining in good faith, but it is all about Obama's re-election.
What an absolute jerk Obama has proven to be. Yet the liberals still adore him, and will gladly be voting for him again and against their best interests. The liberals are misguided believers, they just know the Miracle of Obama will happen, any day now. But yet, it never does.
BTW Ron,
The song was written and recorded in 1975 by Stealers Wheel. The lead singer was Gerry Rafferty, who sounds a lot like Dylan.
Dear "Conservative Leaders":
It has come to my attention that you are having trouble getting your Republican troops to fall in line - even when the future of our nation is in imminent danger. Ironically, the answer to your problem is literally within a stone's throw of your offices.
Look, you have had no problem adopting Saul Alinsky's rules for radicals. You obviously understand the value of learning from the opposition. So, check this out.
John: Your counterpart on the Democratic side - Nancy Pelosi - was able to get a majority vote from her flock; no Republicans at all. She got the ball rolling with that health care insurance reform thing, right? Here you guys were saying that everybody hated it, yet she got the job done. Ask her how she did it!
Mitch: Your counterpart on the Democratic side - Harry Reid - not only got his Democrats to get that health care insurance reform thing passed in the Senate, but he even got people OUTSIDE his party to vote with him. Ask him how he did it.
So, here we are with the clock ticking down on this debt ceiling time bomb, and you two can't get it raised. As much as I hate polls, it's blindingly clear that the American public really, really, really wants this ceiling raised. They're scared. Come on, pat yourself on the back for that. You wanted a scared electorate - well dudes, you got it.
Now, I know that you guys have sworn to limit the President to one term. Put that aside for just a minute and imagine your opportunity to make the American public happy, to reassure them. Think about this. Wouldn't that enhance your chances to be re-elected? You bet.
If Harry and Nancy don't have all the answers for you, don't worry. When it comes to managing people, there's a guy just down the street who knows how to get that job done. This guy can organize a community like nothing you've ever seen. Yup, he's an honest-to-goodness community organizer. Look, the vast majority of Americans want you to raise the ceiling. The community organizer can show you how to get this done. Organize those wayward Republicans. Let's get this show on the road.
Always working for the betterment of America,
Dave
The Democrats in the Senate sure spend a lot of time telling everyone what they oppose. When are they going to take a vote on a bill, pass some legislation, and show everyone what they support?
I caught that Northstar!
My man Larry O', is the ONLY journalist out there who has his finger on the pulse of what's really going on with this debt ceiling battle.
He predicted election night precisely what's transpiring! ;o)
Who doesn't LOVE a 'feisty' red head? lol
Fascinating that Erick Erickson's name would come up on your post, Feisty. I quote him down on thread 5 as being excited about a government shut down over a year ago. This morning Joe Walsh was on a live interview claiming that as long as the interest on treasury securities is getting paid nothing else is of importance.
This crisis was manufactured, and Conservatives don't care who gets hurt to make their point.
ECONOMIC DOWNTURN AND BUSH POLICIES CONTINUE
TO DRIVE LARGE PROJECTED DEFICITS
This is what the GOP/TP keeps denying and then turning around and trying to blame President Obama. The facts as outlined in this detailed report are that the previous administration put us in the toilet and no matter who was elected President he/she would be faced with many years of reconstruction. It took 8 years to get into this mess and no president, Republican or Democrat, can reverse the damage in 2 plus years. Especially if you take into consideration that the GOP/TP for the last 2 plus years have done everything in their power to try and make President Obama fail. They have stalled over 400 Bills in the Senate with outright objections (blocks) or filibusters demanding 60 votes. They (GOP/TP) have opposed virtually every Bill that has anything to do with creating jobs and/or helping Small Businesses. Go look up their record of virtually 100% “Obstructionism” on legislation that would have moved this country forward, like the $50 Billion Dollar infrastructure bill for example.
And to compound the problem, the GOP/TP is proposing the same Agenda today as this one above that got us into this mess to begin with. The GOP/TP has no new ideas; just the same old same old just repackaged, but with the same failed programs. Just look at the “Ryan Bill”, T-Paw’s proposal which is even worse and the new Bachmann initiative that is worse than the other two. None of them address the cost driving issues in this country. None of them have any plans to create jobs and stimulate the economy, in fact they all do just the opposite. And these are being presented as “Fiscally Responsible” Bills” that will answer all our problems when they add anywhere from $5.5 Trillion to almost $8 Trillion to the deficit/debt in the next decade while giving the Millionaires & Billionaires record tax cuts. In addition these “bogus” spending cut /economic bills destroy most of the Social Programs that benefit the Middle Class and Low Income Families, like the destruction of Pell Grants for education, Medical Research, Food and Product Safety etc etc etc etc.
What these have in common is the promotion of the GOP/TP agenda that “Spending Cuts” and Tax Cuts for the richest 2% are Americas answer to all our problems. They are not. Not any of these address the real problems we are facing.
Where's all the friction between Speaker Boehner and Majority Leader Cantor, First Readers?
Looks to me like they're completely on the same page, with Cantor furiously whipping GOP members to get behind the Boehner bill.
As usual, in an effort to highlight the differences between the two men...
The media has gotten the "big picture" all wrong.
Not the first time, is it?
BackHouse:
I put this up before, you may find it interesting:
This new CC&B is so bad for America in that even the Ryan Bill would not be passed under this new Bill. Reason – the Ryan Bill would not be DRACONIAN enough, it would be to tame.
It’s so strange that these Republican –Tea Bagger people keep blaming the President for his polices.
Come on folks, we all know the reason for this mess is the failed W. Bush and Republicans failed polices.
lmao! I read the topic "Democrats in retreat" and thought to myself how are the FR gang of 14 going to spin this! It didnt take long to get the answer, find something off subject and have all 14 go into a simultaneous mental melt down over it. Way to go!
Enjoyed your posts Feisty, Ron, Navy.
Job1. I think that is exactly what will likely happen the closer we get to Aug 2, a clean debt ceiling increase. Boehner will be forced to throw the TP under the bus and deal with House democrats and moderate republicans; if he doesn't, he knows the consequences for the country.
A short-term increase will not stabilize the jittery markets because as bad as this debate made Congress look, in 6 months it will be even worse. They have to do a long-term one to calm the markets and business anxiety.
Well, at least you're in good company. ;-)
A reasonable person might conclude that. But a person, or group of persons, that is hellbent on finding grounds to impeach a president, such as his invocation of the 14th Amendment to avert disaster, or at least remove him from office at the next election, easily might not.
Hence, we are where we are. In a state of perpetual impasse, as you say.
Does he have a point?
Yeah, because we know the GOP has their priorities straight, right?
"The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term President." - Sen. Mitch McConnell
Is that anything like the "Trickle-Down Miracle" that St. Reagan told us about in that fairy tale of his?
Some people are asking the president to perform their legislative duties i.e. by producing plans ot help fix the deficit issue. What they don't seem to grasp is that the it isn't the job of the executive branch to provide legislation, however I do agree that ethe president sets the plan/direction/leadership.
It seems that the problem we have with the debt crises is not that the president has not provided his leadership or guidance, it is that this president is not respected by members of the republican party, so even when his leadership is offered, it is met with staunch resistance and disdain. The tea party whackos - that's another story.
On the debt ceiling debate, the president has actually agreed to the speaker's request, but the the speaker is rejecting the president's only request i.e. to remove loop-holes for the wealthiest Americans - this would alleviate our debt issues. This is insanity, since that would actually reduce the deficits even more than what the speaker is requesting. Is everything just backwards here? the president is being the conservative... you also know you have a problem when Sen Reid's plan is more fiscally responsible than the speaker's plan.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the discussion for the debt ceiling and the deficit/debt reduction plans are meant to be discussed together, I'm not, because both topics are "completely independent"...and we should be tying them together, since it blurrs the issues, and most stupid (or less intellectually curious) people tend to confuse the topics.
Not raising the debt ceiling is plain dumb (so the tea party representatives can be quite dumb - not all of them, but you get the picture)... the debt/deficit talk needs to be discussed, because we need to "at all cost" attain fiscal sanity.. we are headed on a path that makes no sense. The $850 billion the speaker is fighting for is not even worth discussing..because he's on the verge on destroying America for saving spear change.
Now folks, is that just ridiculous???? Maybe the American people will wake up~!!!! right??? I doubt it because afterall, they voted for GWB twice.
@Navy
Nope. Not then and not now.
...er, once.
So Mitt Romney, who is running for the presidency doesn't want to comment on what is going on in DC? He's playing it safe.
President Obama has cancelled campaign trips to stay in DC until things are settled. Mitt can keep campaigning (which is fine, he's not the President), but you would think he would have some ideas, comments, insights - anything - to bring to the table.
He's your typical corporate hack - take the money and run.
The Democratic Black Caucus said yesterday they would not vote for either bill, plan...neither Reid's nor Boehners.
They probably won't hold to this if and when their vote is needed, but at least they're standing up to the SOBs in DC.
They have historically always stood tall, when everyone else slinks.
I have forgotten the woman's name, but she was a guest on Lawrence's program last night. She said in order for SS, Medicare and Medicaid to survive through the years, reform is absolutely necessary. Politicians have been saying this for decades, but President Obama is the only one who wants to seriously deal with this, so that these programs are strengthened for future generations.
An American Tragedy
Keep on cutting Republicans and Democrats. It's nice to see the poor and working class paying the price for incompetence in DC through many many years. btw, have you guys made any cuts to your salaries (which you don't need) or benefits (which you don't need)? That's where the reform should come from.
Really really sad. We need a more diverse Congress that isn't made up of millionaires. They have no heart. No soul. Nothing.
I know for a fact that there are 3 or 4 people in my office (lawyers and Republicans) who collect social security and their paychecks here. Big fat paychecks.
They don't need social security. Period.
US Navy,
While I have always disagreed with the Bush tax cuts (and still do), do you realize the bulk of the expense is lost tax revenue from the middle class? The projected tax increase from changing the rates back for the upper 2% is about 700 billion over 10 years. The projected tax increase from changing the rates back for everyone is around 3.2 trillion.
So, when evaluating the cost of the Bush tax cuts, keep in mind a large majority of the benefit did go to the middle class - and removing those cuts will largely hit the middle class.
As to the cost of Iraq...I was against it from day one and I'm still against it now. I was ok with the initial Afghanistan invasion, but I would have pulled out many years ago. I also would not have gotten involved in Libya.
Alan, NJ (quoting):
This whole thing is so petty and vindictive and transparent that it is unbelievable. The jacket thing was debunked long ago by many photos of George W. Bush in shirt sleeves in the Oval Office.
But this is what you argue when you are way past arguing substance and down to personalities.
Nonsense. This is sheer code for "uppity." Reserve "petulance" for those who deserve it, most notably guys like Eric Cantor, Joe Wilson, and that Congressman from Illinois, whose name I forget, but who speaks "petulantly" to everyone, whether provoked or not.
Talk about projection from the PARTY of Petulance.
But now we're getting somewhere. It's just too bad that more can't see this.
Yes they do, getting the countries economic situation back in order.
Start listing all the wonderful accomplishments of Obama's great economic success stories. Short list, non-existent list in fact. You act like keeping Obama around is going to improve the situation, turn the economy around. What in the world makes you or anyone else believe that? Obama can't even have meetings with the opposition without blowing up, walking out, and having these bizarre press conferences where he blames everyone but himself.
Obama is pointless, and he's too stupid to figure out that he's the problem. There is no point to keeping a clueless dolt like Obama around because he doesn't have the ability to learn, adapt, or change.
...and Obama once (so far)
BTW Mr Intellectually curious, do you envisage a scenario when it would be wrong to raise the debt ceiling or is it always the only course of action? Perhaps in your mind the status quo is the way to go, and to continue to borrow 40% of government costs? How about we try and lower that. You want to implement the Progressive Budget proposal? Cool. Post here all the changes required to raise revenues. Post every one of them and lets vote on it in 2012. If not, what are you willing to cut?
Excellent post John! The GOTP is on a mission and they have a lot of people supporting them even though it goes against their followers best interests.
Well, then, we either take just the $700 billion, and thank you very much -- every little bit helps -- or we take the $3.2 trillion, or some number in between. Maybe it IS time that the middle class understood that they may also have to contribute something more so that we can restore prosperity for everyone, and especially for themselves.
@ Navy ~ As for Republicans not admitting that the Bush tax cuts had anything to do with this, as I observed below, the river that divides Republicans from us now is Denial.
Tunde:
Great point and so very true. The GOP/TP is so lost and impotent they are trying to manufacture a new History which leaves out the real culprit of this mess - THEM. They think we cannot go back and look at the real History of this mess.
The Big Three - McConnell, Boehner and Cantor all voted for Trillions of Dollars in increased Debt that laid the foundation for this mess.
Two unfunded wars, two unfunded tax cuts, a terrible Drug Bill and gutting legislation controlling Wall Street and Big Business. They voted for all of them and these are still being paid for no matter who is President and it accounts for 40-50% of the deficit according to CBPP, CBO and other think tanks and economists of note.
Anna: Kudos, also responded to your post at #10. Have a great day and keep writing, I look for ya every day along with the others.
Alan: You may be right, but I used Bing, and Bob Dylan's name appeared.
Good Morning Anna Molly:
I'm always interested in your legal opinion. Do you think the 14th Amendment applies here. Bill Clinton seems to think so. Or more accurately, he thought the Supreme Court could figure it out. I've learned from you, the Supreme Court is biased.
Feisty Redhead:
Eric Erickson, the particular "nobody" you refer to who's pulling the Republican puppet strings is a rather bloated-looking talking head on CNN. They have him on to give "balance" so that opinions represented range from merely conservative to the lunatic fringe of the far right. It looks like there's a struggle between cable news talking heads for ultimate control of the GOP: Karl Rove on Fox News, Erickson on CNN, and of course, Rush Limbaugh on his radio show. This is important.
Ha Ha. He does sound like one of those old farts...i just put it up here for a reaction
Ron186...:
I support letting the tax cuts on the top 2% to expire, not the middle class and never said otherwise, so please do not try and imply I did. That is a lie and you know better. My position on Tax Cuts has been very clear from the beginning.
Right now the top 2% pay about 18% in income taxes - Effective Rate. The so called middle class pays 23-25% depending on who you read. This is wrong period.
Also tax cuts to the top 2% do not create jobs nor do they stimulate the economy that is a fact.
If we are concerned with spending dollars only on what gives us as a country a good return on those dollars keeping the tax cuts for the 2% and the tax loopholes/incentives for Big Business need to go.
That is my position on the Tax Cuts and about 70%+ of the American people agree with me.
Actually Houston! - I was referring to the other 'nobody' Grover Nordquist!
My 'snark-meter' must be off kilter this morning!
Thanks for mentioning the rest of the merry band of morally challenged misfits! ;o)
Ron-1861300
Many of those middle class people who benefited from the Bush tax breaks don't have to pay any income tax at all now because they're unemployed. On balance, they would have been better off without the tax breaks. If the tax levels of the Clinton years had been maintained during Bush's eight years of misrule, there would be no national deficit and there would be plenty of government money to pump into the economy during "rainy days" of recession like the 3-year long rainy day we're in now.
Mixed Bag
It's nice to know that they are of one mind in their determination to destroy the US economy to bring down Obama -- one very SMALL mind.
I never had any use for the Party of No or Baggers.
Now, I have no use for the Democrats, either (they are virtual Republicons).
Well "they" had better get something done and soon or we will all be standing on the edge oeconomic catastrophe. Less about coats and protocol and more about doing the people's work.
Navy,
If you are really concerned with the "Rich" paying their fair share, then you have to look at changing the Capital gains tax rate, not income tax. As a small business owner, my tax is roughly 33%. Raising that will take money out of corporate earnings left in the business that are used to hire employees. Obama's plan will take out enough to either reduce hires by 3 people or $150,000 reduced capital/other expenditures.
As a right leaning person, I would be willing to allow my taxes to be raised if you also raise the middle class. Simply because you cannot guarantee that when raising the upper 2% this year, and it doesn't accomplish your goals that you won't be right back in 2 years trying to raise them again. So long as we are all in the same situation, then a more honest evaluation will occur.
I will also be supportive for eliminating deductions and simplifying the tax code. The Democrats have proposed to reduce tax rates and eliminate deductions, which I would fully support.
If you are really concerned about the upper 2% fairness/income tax rate, then I would assume you will be 100% for taxing only that money that is taken home as income, not the money left in the business. (On my tax form, I add my wages and the corporate profits to get my taxable income).
Increasing taxes in the upper 2% will (only) bring in $70B per year. Our current imports are $500B per month. A 5% tariff will bring in $300B per year in revenue, and will aid in protecting jobs here.
My 2 cents.
Breaking News from the 'you just can't make this stuff up files';
Joe Walsh (R) IL (yes the same guy who's taking advice from Red Erickson).
His ex-wife is suing him for 100K in BACK child support... LMFAO!
How's THAT for fiscal conservatism?
Talk about 'tough' decisions, take your girlfriend on exotic vacations OR uphold your reponsibilities as a father....
Alan, NJ,
no where in my post did I agree to go with the status quo... so don't assume that you know where I stand with regards to that... my point was that they are separate topics... while I'm a left leaning individual, I've been harping about deficit/debt reduction for a long long time... and I don't like how we've spiraled out of control with regards to the debt.
The largest portion of our debt is health... ~40~50%.... and to really do anything about reducing the debt, this needs to be tackled... not tackling it is disingenuous. Republicans have been screaming that Obama is running up the deficits... I would say that the deficits pretty much would have been what it is w/o Obama ever being elected.. you cant do a lot about deficit reduction when the economy is in shambles.... the cost of government is increasing with inflation, health care cost is increasing higher than inflation, unemployment insurance is burdensome since people are still out of work and tax revenues are lower since we are still in recession.... so yes we have a lot to do right now.
We can reduce the deficits significantly, but it will be at the risk of a tithering economy, either way, we are in for a world of hurt. So, while I don't claim to be intellectually superior, I am on the other hand truly intellectually curious rather than buying what someone else tells me to believe (just like most people believe talking heads on new television or talk radio).
Think Progress:
While appearing on MSNBC’s Morning Joe this morning, Americans for Tax Reform (ATR) president Grover Norquist got in a spat with Lawrence O’Donnell over whether the ATR chief would ever advocate voting against raising the debt ceiling. “You’re saying there are situations where you do think default would be okay?” O’Donnell asked. “It’s possible,” replied Norquist, who went on to reiterate that his organization is against raising taxes.
_______________________________________
I missed Lawrence this morning as I don't tune in to Morning Joe. Lawrence has been spectacular during this crisis. He keeps me as grounded as I am able to be during these difficult days. He's so no nonsense.
And I love when he occasionally talks with a Boston accent. Too funny.
That Joe Walsh is a real piece of work. Just your typical responsible conservative.
Right?
Nancy Pelosi. Barack Obama. Both against the Iraq War.
Senator Reid. Nancy Pelosi. President Obama. Please do the right thing. The country is depending on you.
The polls clearly show that the overwhelming majority of Americans believe that any deficit reduction bill should include tax increases on the wealthy. In fact, the majority of REPUBLICAN voters think we need to raise taxes on the wealthy.
Why, then, is it that the democrats in congress are proposing plans that include no tax increases on billionaires? The democrats in congress propose a plan that is more economically conservative than what most republican voters want -- and the republicans in congress *STILL* won't accept it.
Exactly how much evidence does one need to see that the republicans in congress are willing to drive the economy over a cliff because they think they can successfully blame the catastrophe on Obama? Behavior like that can only be viewed as a betrayal of our country for their own political gain.
Feisty, US NAVY - great posts this morning.
Looking at this situation, you have to wonder WHY elected officials would engage in behaviour that puts the country at risk. Why have to ask the question WHY it is SO IMPORTANT to NOT raise the debt limit?
We are seeing a revolt - a split - a breakdown - in our body politic because a group of lawmakers have decided that THEIR ideaology is more important than YOUR money, And yes, it is YOUR money that these guys are gambling with.
At this point, does is really matter what side of the aisle you are on? If you are an American citizen, your interests are NOT being attended to. I see that many on the right side of the aisle are (secretly) rooting for the shutdown of the Government - again - but probably do not realize the damage that they are doing to America's financial standing, betting on America to fail.
So if America fails, what takes it's place?
Are you prepared for the resulting chaos that these actions are ushering in?
I maintain that all of the 'chaos' is SCRIPTED. SOMEONE wants America to NOT be the superpower that is has been for years, and it is imploding America by poisoning its body politic and crashing America financially.
All the while, the electorate stands by helplessly watching this debacle.
-- Where is the outrage?
-- Where is the groundswell for recalls for these treasonous lawmakers that want to crash the economy?
-- Why is it OK for them to 'behave badly' for their OWN interest(s)?
-- Why is it OK for them to make the electorate PAY and PAY for their mistakes?
-- WHY NOW??
America, your country is being destroyed right in front of your eyes and you are not doing ANYTHING to help it or save it. You are sitting back and 'waiting' for your elected officials to 'do the right thing', which is something that they are INCAPABLE of doing.
When are we going to make it known that we, the electorate, are fed up with the partisan gamesmanship?
Think Progress:
Speaker of the House John Boehner (R-OH) admitted yesterday that “a lot” of House Republicans want to push the country into default in order to create “chaos” and push through conservative priorities.
Corporate Taxes should be based on a ratio of profit to number of employees + pay.
Our economy would boom!
Don't take it to some extreme I am a communist BS!
Both the Democrat and Republic Status Quo would be shaken at their roots. Who are the biggest Lobbyists Republicans and Democrats!
Create an environment where entitlements are not necessary.
Personally I think the number one important thing in an economy is FLOW!
You call it capitalism but I think it is more of a consumerism economy.
Unions would no longer be appealing. Employees would be more likely to invest in the company they work for raising internal capital and better work ethics.
Think about what I am saying. Walstreet uses money to make money let consumers do the same. Put the money back in play before it is collected.
I am not a Dem or Rep. I am not antibusiness or antigovernment. My point above is to get the consumer spending benefiting everyone.
I am not interested in punishing anyone. Companies could essentially walk away paying no taxes at all. They could consider stock options as pay, top notch insurance as pay, 401k, pay as pay.
Incentives a flowing economy instead of subsidizing it.
don't let them down grade the working class in order to compete with india and china's slavery
Can a real economist tell me what they think? Please don't give me some lame "standard model" BS.
Maybe it IS time that the middle class understood that they may also have to contribute something more so that we can restore prosperity for everyone, and especially for themselves.
____________________________________________________________
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's a good one AM!!!!!
Try selling that one to the Dems and FR lefty liberals. You are going to get kicked out of the libsrus club for speaking such heresy.
JoAnnaSmith1,
RE, your post #1.32: President Obama has had more legislation passed during the first two years of his administration than any president since Lyndon Johnson. I feel like this post will be a waste of my time because you obviously will deny the FACTS and the TRUTH. It runs in the veins of far-right tea sips and many Republican Politicians who are terrified of their masters the Tea Party! But I have always believe, as Confucius said: "It is better to light one little candle than to curse the darkness". So please see the below PROOF!
http://mobile.nationaljournal.com/columns/political-connections/obama-s-evolution-20110127
http://www.minorityreporter.net/fullstory.php?id=453
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
My snark recognition system is off kilter. I guess Eric Erickson has ever demanded Republicans sign a silly pledge. He just gives them silly advice.
Tiny minds fail to understand that if you raise the debt ceiling, but cut to the point that we start significantly paying back our debt, the job is done. That is what Tea Party childlike fit throwers fail to understand (as opposed to the radical left who want no entitlement programs cut even the smallest amount).
Is it a wonder why people fail financially? One group (lefty eco terrorists) runs their credit card straight into bankruptcy. Meanwhile the other (tea bagging fit throwers) will not get their own children proper dental care because they would have to put the money on a credit card, even if they could pay that off and be back to zero within a year. And no, neither group gets a break on being less insane.
Slide show, Presidents in shirtsleeves in the Oval Office:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/02/05/bush-jacketless-in-oval-o_n_164513.html
Devie:
Great posts this week. Keep up the good work. KUDOS!!
Derek: I know quite a few people who ran their credit cards straight into brankruptcy.
Every single one of them is a Republican. I work near one who is on the phone a few times a week trying to "make deals" with credit card companies.
And they are all blaming President Obama because of their own irresponsibility and greed. I have a co-worker whose brother is a republican. He is on national tv evidently from time to time slamming President Obama. This is a guy who paid cash for his house.
What's he complaining about? Taxes.
Everyday, the same old river of complete junk is fed to the same folks on here. Don't you people ever get tired of your own crap? Navy, Feisty, et all, you all are all just preaching to the choir. Nobody cares what you think or write on here, certainly not the POTUS. He doesn't care one thing about you or your desires, wants or needs. He is after the "middle" which is the only way he can win in 2012, and even that is a longshot. You voted for "change you can believe in" and you got a poitical hack who is flat out over his head, and I voted for him too. But it won't happen again.
You rally against the "tea baggers" with such vitriole and rage. Look in the mirror, you are the problem. Because you believe in fairy tales over reality. The reality is politic's in Washington is being run by the far right / left wings of both parties, and people like Wasserman Schultz and Cantor, complete political hacks who could care less about you or your interests. Your just a bunch of blow hards, and your comical, thinking that any of this has real meaning. Never underestimate the stupidity of the American people. As Barnum said, "there's a sucker born every minute". Get it? or is it to tough for you?
@Tunde Akins
Sorry dude, one of my cranky days. OK here's one for you to ponder. This is a link to an article by a right-wing opinion writer. What I got out of it is on page 2 when they talk about the number of employees who will be dropped by employers from health insurance. Now I agree with them on the point that this is the intention of Obamacare, so that we are moved to a single-payer system. What I find interesting is that there is no thought as to who will pay for it. What I see for the period of 2016 - 2021 is an increasing tax burden on the individual as they pick up the increase health care costs, and that companies will benefit through reduced expenses. What do you think? Do you think this was intentional?
www.nydailynews.com/opinions/columnists/tantaros/index.html
Navy,
I wasn't attempting to imply you wanted to increase taxes on the middle class, and my apologies if it came off that way.
What I was responding to was the comments about the amount of the debt that is due to Bush's tax cuts and the cost of Iraq and Afghanistan. My point being, most of the cost of the tax cuts was due to the middle class tax breaks in those cuts. If we all agree that the middle class tax cuts were a good idea, then I think they should be excluded from the "Bush debt burden" numbers.
Do your masters know you're using their names in vain?
When they show you who they are...believe them!
Pat,
There is thousands of dems who owed twice what their house is worth from racked up credit cards that got put on refinancing their homes. Thats hardly a dem or repub thing.
Are you dems blind or just ignorant? You bitch so much about Bushs tax policy and your party extended them. But if they say they didnt or are against it. It must be true.
@ Fiesty 1.47
don't know if I want to throw up or cry. Either way the kids lose.
Regardless of what happens in the next couple of days/weeks/months, as a country we will come out of this better.
@ KSte
Irrelevant. This is a macro issue not micro/household. Your argument for/against the Bush tax cuts should be more based on economic class warfare. In reality, the $70B in savings each year by taxing the "Rich" won't come close to solving the problem. We saw that yesterday when Boehner moved his 850B in savings to $900B and both the Dems and Reps pointed out that it still amounted to nothing.
While I agree this crisis is largely manufactured for political gain like most manufactured crises the bark will likely end up being far worse than the bite. What I can NOT agree on is the idea that one side is actively attempting to crash the economy completely. This is absurd, it benefits absolutely nobody, including the big bad rich folk.
Pietro, I'll reserve my outrage 'till the smoke clears and we see what comes out of this mess. Groundswells for recall would be premature at this juncture. As petulant and school-boy-bully as many of our congressmen appear to be they were all legally elected and we must deal with who we have put in Washington. This is OUR responsibility as the electorate. Don't like 'em? Vote 'em out next round. Recalls are not compatible with our system and generally end badly, because they are the result of hastily made emotional decisions (I am a Californian, I know all about recalls........)
Call me naive but I have great faith in the system. Checks and balances built in. We certainly have our ups and downs but a few screamers (and isn't that all the "Tea Party" is?) can not destroy us.
Feisty -
I could have sworn that these folks take an oath of office and pledge allegiance to the Constitution of The United States. Signing pledges (allegiance) to Norquist and all the anti gay anti abortion special interest radical religious groups sounds like a conflict to humble ol me. Which is it boys and girls, who is your allegiance to, DO YOUR JOB, honor your oath. Maybe an impeachment party or a mass recall of members that sign other allegiances might be fun.
I sure hope your right cdahl, I really do!
Robert, I couldn't agree with you more! The more I learn about these BS pledges the more I believe it could constitute treason.
Ron:
Good morning, Ron. Yes, I happen to think so, although I understand that other legal minds may disagree.
It really is a very simple, elegant, and textual -- which conservatives should appreciate -- legal argument. The relevant language of the 14th Amendment is here:
The President has constitutional authority to execute the laws of the United States.
The 14th Amendment is a law that the President has power to execute. Debts previously incurred are "authorized by law" as described in the 14th Amendment. Thus, the President has authority under Article II to act in whatever appropriate way would be available to honor those debts that have been authorized by law, as required by the 14th Amendment.
If you look at it this way, then the debt ceiling itself becomes subject to constitutional question.
I am very glad to hear that Bill Clinton agrees. No one can question the power of his legal mind, and he also brings 8 years of practical experience to the table. I hear that Lawrence Tribe and other law professors are not so sure, but I have not yet read their analysis. Based on my own, I think it's a colorable argument.
On the other hand, this is absolutely the last thing I want the President to do, and if he does so, it must be done in a way that is authoritative and not desperate. Either way, I suspect that there are some who would seize this opportunity to call for his impeachment. He can't be convicted -- at least not by this Congress -- but it would certainly put what remains of his term up in the air in terms of productive value.
And after that, who knows? In short, based on the current course, which seems deliberately aimed at forcing the showdown, I'm scared.
First of all, I'd love to know how it is that "Feisty Redhead Roselle IL" so often gets the 1st post on so many of these articles. Timing? Hard to believe with this many posts. Fate? Doubtful. A paid commentator by MSNBC and/or the DNC? Almost certainly.
Back to the issue.....................
I kept wondering why the democrats never passed a bill to raise the debt ceiling when they controlled both houses and the W.H. But after the shellacing they took in the 2010 elections, they needed to mount a charge yielding similar results for themselves in 2012. So they calculated a plan to make the republicans look bad and waited until the last months to force a national outcry against the republicans.
Their plan is obvious now. I can imagine the presidents plan as such: "We wait until the last minutes and put it all on the republicans. We say that they are being unreasonable if they don't give us what we want, I'll go on TV and sit in on the talks looking like the great mediator. We'll say we are putting things on the table that are precious to us, but we'll take them away before they can act on them. As the clock ticks away, reject everything they offer and we'll appeal to the public that we are bargaining in good faith and they aren't. Reject anything they offer. Then, when we are at the last minutes before default, I will use the 14th amendment to save the day for every American. I look like the knight in shinning armour and every democrat comes out smelling like a rose. We'll beat them in the next elections the way they beat us in the last."
Brilliant!
Anna,
Astute analysis. I agree. The President would be within his authority invoking the 14th but it would destroy him politically as the remainder of his presidency would be wrapped up in fending off impeachment attempts. All in all not good for the country.
Anna Molly said: Well, then, we either take just the $700 billion, and thank you very much -- every little bit helps -- or we take the $3.2 trillion, or some number in between. Maybe it IS time that the middle class understood that they may also have to contribute something more so that we can restore prosperity for everyone, and especially for themselves.
Pragmatically speaking, you may be correct Anna, but... I have a problem handing over more money to a government that doesn't have it's house in order, just to be handing it over.
One of the biggest deterrents to just setting a higher rate for me is... what are they doing with the money in the first place. I realize that taxes are necessary in order to keep the government alive and well. What I can't fathom is the amount of money that's tossed down the drain. They aren't innocent.
Let's say you had a son and that son was in need. You would help that son, wouldn't you? I know I would. Where I would draw the line is if that son was hooked on drugs, or had a drinking or gambling problem. I'd want him to get help to overcome his addiction. Our government is addicted to spending more than what they bring in. Show me the cuts first in wasteful programs. Make sense of the way they spend money. I wouldn't mind giving a larger portion if I knew the money was well managed. Right now I am not convinced they know how to manage money so I become coiled up when people mention that we should give more. Put the government into addiction rehabilitation first... show some fiscal sanity... let them prove to the people they are capable of handling the revenue... right now there are serious doubts.
inthemiddle12 - Feisty is the 1st poster on First Thoughts because she is smarter than you are.
Definitely.
As for the rest of your post - when I was finished laughing at your thought process, I need to point out that you are forgetting one thing - the HOUSE is responsible for all budgetary legislation. Although your 'conspiracy' sounds good, it has no weight or bearing, especially when the GOPers and the Tea Partyers have control of the House.
@Jolly,
lol,lol, The Gang of 14! Love it, even though I think of them as the 'NewsVine Progressive Fan Club.' But it is funny how one posts an opinion piece, and the rest line up to praise the original writer. Is there 14 of these people? I thought more.
The Gang must email each other to get their talking points for the next day. Without question, they start the day off with a bang! Funny.....What's a snark anyway?
Anna, I love Bill but the guy who states it all depends on the meaning of the word "is", can certainly be questioned in a legal sense.
The President has constitutional authority to execute the laws of the United States.
The 14th Amendment is a law that the President has power to execute.
__________________________________________________
AM: I'm no lawyer, but, it seems to me that the Constitution including any amendments is not a "law". Is the Constitution included in the text and titles of the Code of Laws of the United States of America which is a compilation of all of the laws currently in force?? The Constitution is a document that establishes the structure of the federal govt and defines rights, powers and limits that apply to the feds, states and people, i.e. it's a (small "c") constitution.
Please comment/clarify.
Carney’s statement, ‘I am confident cooler heads will prevail <debt cap debate> because the American people have overwhelmingly made their wishes known’ means he is confident the Tea Party Caucus in the House will be changing their ideology and voting the President’s way.
In error Carney assumes Tea Party voters have called their Representatives and asked them to vote the President’s way.
It follows that Carney was confident the Tea Party Caucus would not be elected in the 2010 mid-term either.
When all is said and done in the comments above, it's quite clear that those in support of Obama's policies regarding the deficit don't give a wit about fiscal responsibility. That 'minor' point is lost in the finger-pointing, name calling, and political defensiveness.
I haven't read a single thing from the 'typical' Obama supporters as to how we are going to solve our debt crisis. They simply scream, "gimme gimme gimme - I want it all NOW!".
Bottom line seems to be that The President (and his supporters) doesn't think he can win the next election without a blank check to promise more fiscally irresponsible spending programs like Ca$h for Clunker$ or "Shovel Ready" jobs at 500K apiece; likewise, there's so much talk about Afghanistan & Iraq, but zero mention of the unilateral use (and cost) of military force in Egypt.
Now SHAZAM!... the 14th amendment is SUDDENLY discovered. What a predictable joke this President has become.
P.S.
Quite right....
Feisty & Ret Navy Vet (suuree you are) How much does this White House Media outlet pay you guys???
Nice try Pietro. Simply because you obviously support the democrats doesn't make your comments have any more validity than mine.
But just as a typical democrat does, you twist my comments, make some of your own and fail to answer my question with anything other than rubbish. 'Feisty" has been at the top of more articles on this site than I can remember. This site posts comments as they come in, not by any manner of intelligence ratings. You're comment regarding that shows your lack of facts. Typical of a democrat.
Second, as I said in my post and you choose to ignore, the dems controlled the HOUSE from 2008-2010. Why didn't THEY increase the debt ceiling? You can't or don't want to answer that can you? One thing is for sure. President Obama proposed a debt increase early in the year that was so bad because it added so much debt that his party scrapped it.
Third, if you don't believe conspiracys go on everyday in our political process, you are either saddly mistaken, ignorant or simply wanting others to believe that by saying it.
justoneguy:
Well said.
I just hope Harry Reid stands his ground veto that Tea Party proposal. As a full fledged Tea Party member I pray that and a default on the debt is what occurs. This is probably the best time in my lifetime to get rid of 50% of the leeches in our federal government. Lets cap this spending. Go ahead Reid veto it.
inthemiddle, Really?
Sounds more like the GOTP's plan too me.
Well let's hope the President does have to resort to that.
The Party of Nope are pinning their political futures on the right wing talking machine and the Neonuts belief that nothing will happen if the debt ceiling isn't raised.
Sorry, To be the one to tell you but the government, any government, is not a business. If the Government's debt rating is lowered we will see loan rates go up for everyone, not just the government. So just imagine what will happen if the Government defaults on it's loans. That's right economic chaos.
Not brilliant just sad.
I too have questioned the speed and well thought out points of the "first post." But to argue it is pointless. The real questions need to be are:
Notice the lack of "do you agree with it". We don't have to agree. Democrats view things differently than Republicans, which is a good thing. The my way or the highway, name calling is what leads to pointless, useless end results.
When it comes to Fiesty, Navy and others I often disagree with their position, but I do respect it, understand it, and know that those positions comes from their perspective. Which they have every right to hold, defend and argue. I also understand that they don't often agree with me, but will consider my points thoughtfully.....which I appreciate.
inthemiddle12
Since you already know that, why did you ask about it as if you suspected that there was some preferential treatment involved? Don't you have enough to whine about without dreaming up new conspiracies that even you know are bogus?
What?! A judge who is no lawyer? I'm shocked, I tell you. ;-)
I was very interested to see if someone would ask that question. I'm not altogether surprised it was you.
You are correct that the Constitution is not part of the United States Code, which is the compilation of statutes enacted by Congress. But "law" is more than just a body of statutes.
According to Black's Law Dictionary, for example, a "constitution" is:
(emphasis added)
Thus, by definition, the Constitution of the United States is the "law" of the land, in the same way that statutes are, duly adopted regulations are, or even treaties, which are also not included in the United States Code.
Also according to Black's ....
(emphasis added)
In Marbury v. Madison, John Marshall, then Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, declared that it is the duty of the Court to interpret the Constitution and declare what the "law" is.
Thus, the Constitution is clearly a "law" by any measure.
Hope that helps.
Feisty:
If I didn't know better, I'd swear you might be gloating about Joe Walsh and his back child support. Clearly, you - like all the other lefty libbies - don't understand finance.
I happen to know - because he said so - that Joe Walsh is very concerned about his children and grandchildren. I also know - because he said so - that the debt ceiling is very important. He knows that he has to stay within the constraints of his income. He only makes $174,000 annually. How'd you like to have to scrape by on that?
Anyway, I'll bet Joe is going to pay the full $117,000 right now. That'll leave him $57,000 for everything else. That's plenty, isn't it? Of course, if they cut his income 40% like they're planning to do with the federal budget, I don't know how that's going to work out, but I know Joe can git 'er done.
He's being brutalized. Here's what he said this morning, " 'It’s interesting that it [this nasty and unfair story] just broke right now as I’m out there trying my best to fight this president and fight the Democrats and solve this debt crisis,' ” he said on CNN’s “Newsroom.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60111.html#ixzz1TPsTgd8t
See, that's why I know he's taken care of the child support problem, because he now has the time to fight the President and the Democrats for getting into the same kind of mess he's in. Betcha HE didn't borrow to pay off his bills - No sir, not Joe. He's a good dad and he's fiscally responsible - a real Tea Party kind of guy.
Sarcasm key off. This just couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.
Face it, neither side wants to fix this problem.
Or more accurately, neither side can.
As much as both sides are posturing their political ideologies the simple fact is, we will default. The only question is, will we default now or in 6 months or in 18 months. If any of you honestly believe that either side will cut the "sacred cow" entitlements, you're disingenuous. If any of you believe that any revenue (read; taxes) will be committed to the debt rather than spent as usual, you're delusional.
I guarantee you there will be no provision in either bill that any savings from cuts or tax revenues will STRICTLY go to decreasing the Debt. It never has and it never will. Just look at our debt history. We have NEVER had a single year where the debt was lower than the preceding year. NEVER! Even during those alleged "surplus" years of Clinton. The debt still kept rising. If there truly was a surplus why wasn't it applied to debt reduction? Our government has been conditioned to expand uncontrollably and indefinitely. Why? Because it buys votes.
$14.5 TRILLION in National Debt. $55 TRILLION in Total US Debt. $115 TRILLION Dollars in Unfunded Liabilities. IF we decrease the National Debt and freeze ANY future spending, borrowing or monetization by $1 TRILLION Dollars a year it will take us over 19 years (interest included) to eliminate our National Debt. I'll leave the calculations of the rest of our Debts and Unfunded Liabilities to your leisure. Obama's own projections show our Debt to be $21 TRILLION Dollars by 2020. This additional $2.4 TRILLION in Debt ceiling increase is a 16.5 % increase in our current Debt. If any of you truly believe this will not be spent either through discretionary, non-discretionary or earmarks you are obviously from the planet "Clueless". Why do you suddenly believe that this mob of corrupt and fraudulent leaders on Capitol Hill will try to break their stellar record of waste, fraud and abuse (WFA) that they readily admit to your face but NEVER do anything to eliminate it?
$500 BILLION Dollars in WFA in Medicare alone, and it continues. The GAO's recent report on Agency and Department redundancy in government that consumes $100-$200 BILLION Dollars a year, and it continues. The recent GAO disclosure of the Federal Reserve audit that shows the U.S. provided $16 trillion in secret loans to bail out American and foreign banks and businesses during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Did you even know about that? The Fed provided trillions of dollars in financial aid from South Korea to Scotland. J.P. Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon served on the New York Fed's Board of Directors at the same time that his bank received $390 BILLION in financial assistance. Does that create a suspicion of a conflict of interest in any of your minds? It should. The Fed granted almost all of the emergency lending operations to private contractors like J.P. Morgan Chase, Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo. These were ZERO-Interest loans and 2/3's of them were NO-BID contracts! And you're wringing your hands over whether $1 TRILLION Dollars of cuts or revenue increases will be created by our
criminalspoliticians.You have no idea what is happening inside our government yet you all sit here and demonize each other over your sacred entitlements and tax cuts. Are you feeling foolish yet? You should. We are told what the bourgeoisie want us to know, not what we need to know. The Washington Two-Step is being played like a waltz right now and you think it will be solved. Your irrational trust in a government who for nearly 100 years has been creating more and more debt, unsustainable entitlements and social programs in collusion with the most criminal Central Bank in the world is confusing. You stand proudly with your hands out begging for more and more government yet you have no idea what is really happening right under your noses.
The only rational, if there is such a concept in our government, solution right now is to Cut and Cap our spending. A Balanced Budget Amendment should never be necessary if we have honest, Constitution adhering politicians. I think you can all realize those have been lacking for decades. Remember, when you combine the incredible monetization capability of the largest Central Bank in the history of man with the uncontrolled legislative ability of a Congress, the only result can be corruption and WFA.
We have midterm elections every two years and general elections every four years. Half of the time our elected officials are campaigning for re-election. And we pay them to do it. They run on their achievements and their rhetoric of how the problems that occurred during their tenure is somehow not their fault. And you believe them. They blame everything on previous administrations, crisis situations or ignorance of the electorate. Most of the elected members have been in Congress for decades, yet the problems just get worse. Your solution is to continue allowing them another chance hoping for a different result. Einstein had a brilliant definition for this type of behavior. INSANITY!
So, go ahead and believe that the criminals in our government actually care about YOUR benefit. This rationale is being exposed to its fullest right now as the greatest economy in the history of man is collapsing around you. Yet for some delusional or disjointed reason, you believe they will or can fix it. Yes, the current mob will come up with some patchwork compromise and our debt ceiling will be raised by another $2.4 TRILLION Dollars. In 18-24 months our Debt will have ballooned to nearly $17 TRILLION Dollars. Your reaction will be the same programmed effect you're displaying now. Pointing fingers, blaming the "other guy", demonizing your opponent’s ideas and romanticizing your own because that's what you've been indoctrinated to do. The incompetent rating agencies will be bought off with empty promises and confounding calculations and at some point our bond rating will be down-graded.
Buckle up my partisan friends we are in for a long and very bumpy ride. Unfortunately none of us will be happy with the results of the trip.
Good luck with your partisanship.
inthemiddle12 - you are right - posting first has no bearing on intelligence ratings. However, what I posted is that Feisty is smarter than you are, and she is if you cannot figure out how she is posting first. So, what I posted stands.
All I pointed out is that the HOUSE is responsible for budgetary legislation. So how am I twisting your words? I laughed at your thought process because it is so convoluted, especially if you think that Democrats would have enough dicipline to 'concoct' a plan to discredit Republicans. Democrats don't need to do ANYTHING to discredit Republicans - they are doing that all by themselves.
Thanks for the laughs, inthemiddle12, but don't give up your day job.
justoneguy
You're just another liar who uses quotation marks because you mistakenly think it makes your lies seem factual. Not ONE person posting here has ever demanded any special favors from the government. The people who are really fiscally irresponsible are Republicans who refuse to consider raising taxes at all when tax rates are at a 60 year LOW, in part because of President Obama's tax cuts for the middle class that he made in addition to Bush's tax cuts. To Republican congress critters, honoring their oath to Grover Norquist never to vote for tax increases outweighs the oath they took to uphold the Constitution.
RetiredVet's post about the goals of the repub-licks in all this is spot on. The efforts are being replicated in each of the states with the neo-fascist teabaggers in power.
The baggers in congress should be tried for treason. Boehner qualifies as and expert witness: his comment should be enough to bring the indictment.
Pietro, Columbus Ohio said a bunch of stuff:
And which party do you want to pin that on? For me, it would be the Democrats, their "ideaology" of buying votes with entitlement is in danger. That is more important to them than fiscal responsibility.
No, the right is not looking for the govt. to shut down, that is stupid and everyone knows it. What do you propose, wait a few months and we will start competing with Greece on how bad our govt. is?
The only chaos is that created by the Democrats by using fear mongering instead of the truth. America won't fail. It is our Legislators and President that are failing us.
Point your finger at our President, he is the leader of the party of "no."
Overall, if the obstructionists Democrats in the Senate would have passed Cut, Cap and Balance, we would be having this conversation. Whether it is now or later, we must cut back on spending. No amount of taxation is going to make up for the poor mistakes that have been made up to now. And that taxation will have a disastrous effect on the already weak economy.
Anna Molly
Interpretation is the basis of Constitutional Originalism. Interpolation is the bastardization that cannot be allowed by the normative or representation reinforcement proponents.
the liberals have won, the Republic is ended. our children will become wards of the state.
remove the white and blue from the flag, for we must now salute only red.
God help the clergy, and other dissidents, hopefully death will be quick and painless.
JoAnna
Ahhhhh . . . what's wrong? Do you realize your party is falling apart so you are now desperately clinging to lies? (The more you tighten your grip, the more votes will slip through your fingers)
Guess what? Obama is not blaming the Tea Party . . . YOUR OWN REPUBLICAN LEADERS ARE!!!!!!!
LMAO
Shall we quote McCain for you . . . calling you and your tea party "bizarro" and idiots?
Or how about Boehner . . . admitting that people like you want to cause "chaos" and destroy the economy?
Your very own party is placing them blame right where it belongs, on PEOPLE LIKE YOU and those your elected.
Boehner's quote actually reminds me of another quote, one that fits the Tea Party perfectly: "Some men just want to watch the world burn." (Pretty much sums up the TP strategy)
Thus, the Constitution is clearly a "law" by any measure.
______________________________________________
O.K. Then why is the WH saying they don't think Barry has the authority under the 14th to direct the Treasury to sell debt in excess of the current debt ceiling?
willowbrook
Are you blind?
Have you not seen the Republicans and Tea Party members holding signs that say: "Shut it down"? Would you like a link to the pictures?
Did you not hear your Tea Party leaders say: "Hold the line"?
If you actually believe the right does NOT want a government shut down, you are either blind or too stupid to realize what your own people are doing around you. So which one is it? Blind or stupid?
Thank you for the kind words cdahl! You are one of the very few from the 'other' side of the aisle who's comments I look forward to!
You've given me rational debate and caused me to 'pause' on more then one occasion.
For that I thank you!
It's good to see you back posting! ;o)
cdahl:
As you and I have said before I would not be opposed to putting the Clinton Tax rate back into effect for income, capital gains and estate taxes. Also make Hedge Fund managers pay the going rates as well instead of the 15% they are now paying. But, that is not going to happen so the point becomes moot on putting everything back to the Clinton era.
What I object to is paying a higher effective rate than somebody making $2,400,000.00 per hour does. That is outright wrong. This hedge fund manager makes more money in one hour that a $50,000 per year worker makes in over 47 years on the job. I am against the corporate tax loopholes and incentives as well.
I would support some tax relief though on Sub Chapter S corps that require to hold large retained earnings in order to keep afloat if and only if those funds can be proved to be used in the business. People are looking at that as part of the tax reform. And how to define what portion of the retained earnings and actual which one would comply is the sticking point. How do you do it without opening he door to fraud.
willowbrook - I purposefully worded my post like I did because I wanted to point out the passivity of the electorate as a WHOLE. I PURPOSEFULLY did NOT single out a particular 'party' because at the end of the day, we are ALL AMERICANS and we ALL will be affected by these changes.
I am sorry you feel the need to 'pin this on' a particular party.
You are right - Government shutdowns ARE stupid. However, you have a group in the HOUSE that want to do just that. They want to create 'chaos' to get what they want. You have banks writing letters to Congress imploring them to raise the debt ceiling. You even have GOPers going after Tea Partyers because if the intrasigence we are seeing.
The bottom line is this - it is all about who is going to get the money. The Wall Street crowd and even the Bond Rating agencies are putting pressure on our Government to raise the debt ceiling. The Bond Rating companies will most likely rate our Treasuries to AA (down from AAA) because they want to see drastic cuts in 'entitlements' before they will consider leaving the rating as it is.
It is pretty obvious to those that are watching who those lawmakers' constituents are, and it ain't the American electorate.
** sigh **
Look - all budgetary Legislation has to originate from the House and it is incumbent on whomever originates the legislation to see to it that they have something that will pass Both Chambers of Congress. What we are seeing is that the House is dropping the ball - again - and there seems to be a lack of understanding of the process. Legislating is hard work, especially when you have to get backing for your initiatives. Like her or not, Nancy Pelosi, when she was Speaker of the House, did a MASTERFUL job of whipping her support for her bills and delivering them to the President.
Speaker Boehner is no so good at keeping his coalition together and it is showing. However, you are falling for the 'spin' that the Democrats are obstructionist when in fact the House is in such disarray, there is no consensus or a 'Plan B' if plan 'A' didn't work.
But, willowbrook, you can delude yourself into thinking that it is 'us v. them' if you want. As Americans, we are ALL suffering - Republicans and Democrats - when we have a Congress that is BROKEN.
fiesty navy, and all the rest of your blogger buddies and parrot pals ought to make like a democrat and retreat!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!! Make sure you cut and paste a nice pathway for your retreat!!!! LMFAO!!!
cdahl -
*sigh*
So you use your personal income to fund your "small business" . . . putting yourself at risk.
You pay 33% tax, meaning that you are NOT taking advantage of the full available deductions, considering you fund your business with personal income.
And you base your staffing needs on the tax rate . . . not profits or demand for your product.
I'm having a hard time trying to figure out why we should take advice from someone who fails this hard. Seriously, I get why some VERY small business owner would use their personal income, but to not use the available deductions . . . AND base all hiring on your tax rate? Really?
I know many small business owners, and only 2 use their own personal income to fund the business . . . ironically, those 2 pay ZERO taxes because of deductions and loopholes. Additionally, NONE of them base hiring on tax rates.
Joanna smith - You want the democrats to step up to the plate and tell the right what they would say YES to? Where did I hear that before? lmao!
Cali,
Please. For once consider that the postings are real. I am a small business owner. With over 100 employees. I highly doubt that you are comparing your small business friends to my situation, a small business that actually employees a good number of people. At our level of taxable earnings, there are no personal deductions to speak of. Over 93% of the taxable income is left in the business. If you increase taxes on that taxable income, it leaves less to grow the business. Not a difficult concept.
My simple point is that the general public is in an outcry to tax the rich. My take home (w2 earnings) doesn't qualify. However, when you add the earnings on Line 27 of my S corp tax statement, I absolutely qualify. So where is the income? Left in the business to promote growth. If you take more of it, it leaves less available to grow with. You are arguing that the Federal gov't takes more to grow the economy. I think that I can do it better.
Call me sometime if you want to personally discuss the matter. Just look up trystar.com
I don't understand what you believe is your point to these posts. The people who dislike President Obama will vote up your posts, and those who disagree will simply label you as a hater with no valid opinion to share. You are gaining nothing by your disrespect except maybe contributing to the liberal view that many on the right appear to have a blind and baseless hatred of our president.
I am not one of the "stupid libbies who blindly worship President Obama" you seem to disdain, but your near daily disrespect is really starting to annoy me. During my military career, I served under several presidents, from President Regan to President Obama. I liked some, I disliked some, but I respected the person and the position. I criticized the actions and decisions of some, but never came close to the level of disrespect you consistantly display. Your constant slander and disrespect the President of the United States as if you are somehow superior is extremely distasteful to me.
He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and third time, till at length it becomes habitual; he tells lies without attending to it, and truths without the world's believing him.
-Thomas Jefferson, 1785
Ron186...:
Thank you for setting me straight, my bad and I apologize. With all the nonsense in the place I sometimes cannot separate snark from non snark. You have a great day and again sorry I misunderstood your post. Looks like we are on the same page after all.
Keep writing and have a good day.
It never ceases to amaze me.
You all sit on these threads and argue that taxes are at historic lows or historic highs.
Tell me where in the Constitution the tax baseline is defined. Where does it say that a corporate tax of 34.6% is too high or too low? Is it because only Brazil, Uzbekistan, Chad and Argentina have higher rates? Or is it because the OECD average is 18.6%? Where does it say that the current personal brackets of 10%, 15%, 25%, 18%, 33% and 35% are wrong? Is it because they are different than they were in 1930? How about 1960? What is the baseline that determines our tax system is wrong?
You don't have a clue. Yet you sit here and base it on ideology. You base it on fairness. You base it on "shared responsibility". What you don't seem to want to comprehend is that it has nothing to do with fairness but rather about envy. Most Liberals believe that the rich should pay more. This is a lie. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the tax rate is, it's about how much the rich have left over AFTER they pay their taxes. This is the root of all evil in the Liberal Progressives mind. It doesn't matter what rate the rich person is taxed at, it's the fact that after paying their taxes they have much more left than the middle or lower class. This is the irrational class warfare we have been subjected to for decades.
The delusion is that if an omnipotent government
stealstakes more from the productive they will, in their infinite wisdom, redistribute the money in a more "fair" way. This is the delusion that has consumed the Liberal mind. Tell me, how well has the redistribution of wealth done to improve poverty? The poverty level in 1960 was 14%, today it is 14.3%. TRILLIONS of dollars redistributed and the result is worse than when it began. How well has the same redistributive mentality worked on illiteracy? Most Americans read at an 8th grade level. Our high school graduates rank 22nd and 27th in science and math respectively out of 30 OECD countries! How well have the wars on crime and drugs worked? Our leadership has created $115 TRILLION Dollars in Unfunded Liabilities. Our trade policies, taxation, regulations and union corruption have created the loss of millions of jobs and the loss of hundreds of thousands of businesses.When will you at least admit our progressive tax system can never be "fair" as long as you have 76,000 pages of tax code that only those with the ability to arm themselves with an army of accountants, lawyers and consultants can exploit it? When will you realize we are the richest natural resource nation in the world and we should be using this to eliminate our foreign dependence on these same resources? Not to mention the wealth of jobs and export income we can generate to pay off our massive debts and obligations. When will you realize that our wealth, prosperity and standard of living was built on the back of domestic exportable manufacturing industries, not a consumption/service sector economy? You can't export entitlements, social programs and infrastructure to create the "new money" we so desperately need to eliminate our massive debts.
These huge and insurmountable government malinvestments have created our debt problems. We have the largest GDP in the world, at least for now. We have enough income to pay for over $2 TRILLION Dollars of government responsibilities every year. Yet we have created $1.65 TRILLION in deficits. This is no longer sustainable. We will have our vaunted credit rating lowered unless we all realize that this uncontrolled spending and government expansion is no longer possible. This is the sad reality our government has created.
I for one have NEVER asked our leadership to create this massive problem. I assume neither have you. The argument now must be how radically are we willing to change our current unsustainable path? it must be drastic and responsible. The pain and suffering will be difficult for us all. This is the result of our neglect of keeping our government in check. As Ron Paul has so eloquently stated.
There can be no argument with this fact.
Gee Pietro - if Pelosi was so masterful, why couldn't she get a budget bill CREATED, let alone passed? The "super majority" had 2 years to do something and they didn't. Now the Republicans are trying to get the job done so we don't default, and still the Democrats won't do anything. This is all a big game to them, and we are the ones who lose.
JoAnnaSmith1
For once you and I are in agreement, Yes Obama lays the blame on ALL these things you listed, and you know what, he is ABSOLUTELY right!
So go back to watching the spin factory, AKA Fox news and pray that this country does not go down the SH!TT3R due to ignorant TP/GOP ideology.
cdahl -
See, this is my issue. I see the GOP/TP jump back and forth between personal income taxes and business taxes. One day they are saying that small business owners fund their companies with their personal income, and we can't touch that. When you argue that theory, they change to corporate tax rates and talk about that. I can never keep up with what bandwagon they are currently on. I assumed you were on the first bandwagon, but I was wrong.
Personally, I have no problem removing the Bush tax cuts on the rich . . . on personal income. For businesses, I think we should remove the deductions because I know FAR TOO MANY companies that pay pennies.
Basically, the debate should be focused on the changes we can make in taxes, instead of a flat out "NO NEW TAXES" battle cry. Your previous posts indicate you would be willing to make adjustments to the tax code . . . I just wish more on the right agreed with you.
Come 2012 there will not be "new" taxes, just old ones, being reinstated.
How should I know?
When did you start taking the what The White House says as either reliable or authority for ANYTHING, much less on Constitutional law?
Besides, I'm not sure that's the same thing. Selling debt may not, for Constitutional purposes, be the same thing analytically as honoring it and paying it. Maybe that's what they've concluded, too.
There are,. of course, other ways to address this that wouldn't involve selling debt, including possibly furloughing federal employees and shutting down Parks, etc., so that no additional debt is incurred. I believe there is enough money to pay the interest on the debt for some period of time under those circumstances.
All I believe is that there is a good Constitutional argument for the President having authority to keep paying the debt.
has any one seen the latest troop of tea party freshmen republicans .. they set time aside each day to give statements to .. CNN MSNBC FOX .. these guys call there PR people and ask when they will be able to go on TV.. they are not at there desk doing there job .. they are playing to the camera .. while our economy tanks.. only in america
Feisty, how much do you get paid by MSNBC and/or Newsvine? You have the first post on EVERY SINGLE "First Read" article that gets posted. Either you sit at your computer incessantly hitting the refresh button in your browser with a comment ready to be pasted into the text box or you get "first crack" at posting a comment on each article because you are a paid employee. Please explain which it is.
And also, regarding the actual content of this article... "that the public wants balance and is willing to pay higher taxes" -- who are these people and where are they? I've yet to find a single person in REAL LIFE that says "I don't think the government takes enough of my money or spends enough. I really wish they'd take more!"
Someday markmich, and indeed the change will have to be drastic.
The average approval rating of a Congressman associating themselves with the Tea Party is just over 35%. and its even lower on the Gubernatorial side at 33% if i remember correctly. Realistically, the TP is going to have difficult times telling their constituents to re-elect them.
Alan, this was hours ago because I was otherwise occupied and not directed at me, but I'm going to give my answer anyway.
There is NEVER a point where it's inappropriate to raise the debt ceiling if required. The reason is that the debt ceiling is the WRONG PLACE to express such things--that would be the budget. Once Congress has passed and the President signed a budget we've made a commitment to spend 'X' amount of money. The debt ceiling is a technical bit required to enable what Congress has ALREADY AGREED TO DO.
If the Ryan budget actually had a snowball's chance of passing the Senate and being signed by the President would it be appropriate to invalidate it by refusing to raise the debt ceiling? Republicans ALREADY signaled their intention to spend more money than allowed by the current debt ceiling by passing the Ryan budget.
That's my position.
Yes, the Democrats will retreat and retreat until Monday when they will officially join the Tea Party.
Thousands of Television workers were laid off this week as TV ratings for popular shows have nose dived. For example 11,000,000 fewer viewers watched MTVs popular "Jackass", opting instead to watch CNNs "Debt Ceiling Debate".
Carney’s statement today, ‘I am confident cooler heads will prevail because the American people have overwhelmingly made their wishes known’ means he is confident the Tea Party Caucus in the House will be changing their ideology and voting the President’s way.
In error Carney assumes Tea Party voters have called their Representatives and asked them to vote the President’s way.
It follows that Carney was confident in 2010 the Tea Party Caucus would not be elected.
(Was Carney old enough to vote in 2010?)
the dinh
I agree.
What I fear is that the indoctrinated populace will resist any change, let alone drastic change.
I find it shameful that the nation that has basically enlightened the world with technology, invention and freedom has itself become so dependant. This is not the America I was raised in. The irrational degree that people have become so irresponsible that they feel a corrupt government can somehow take care of them better than they can take care of themselves is puzzling.
The most embarrassing part is that all you have to do is look around and see the massive amount of debt the government has created yet people still cling to it like a child. This is the absolute nanny-state our Founder's and Framer's warned us of and tried so desperately to avoid. The Constitution has been so bastardized by Progressivism that the average person believes that this was the intent of a Federal Constitutional Republic. The confusion created by claiming we are a Democracy is the most telling aspect of this submission.
Social safety nets have become lifestyles. Abuse of social programs has become common-place and even encouraged. The belief that someone else is responsible for your failures is the biggest contributor to this delusion. Even as the evidence mounts that statism is unsustainable the masses refuse to accept the proof. Progressivism has been reduced to an ideology rather than an intent. Our great nation has "progressed" the world to where it is today. Electricity, light, manned flight, television, computers and thousands of other inventions and products are the result of progress. The difference is that this type of progress was driven by the individual, by ambition, by the private sector. The government did not create any of this, but it continues to intrude on the very progress the free-market created.
The drastic change, that the obvious correction our nation will have to undergo at some point, will be painful and difficult. Our only hope is that government just gets out of the way and allows the correction to occur. Similar, if not more severe, situations occured during the Depressions of 1907 and 1920 and were corrected in less than 18 months. Our lack of historical understanding is showing how we are allowing the same mistakes that allowed the Great Depression to be a decade long Apocalypse rather than an 18-24 month economic interruption to occur.
The next 10 days will be crucial to see the resolve and courage of our leadership. If past history is any indication, it's obvious we will not be pleased with either parties efforts.
No doubt about the resistance to change. It will be ugly. *raises my glass* here's to hoping for the best, and preparing for the worst.
markmich
Thank you, after reading the stupid spewed by the first few posters it makes me question if reality can function in the USA.
Neither side has a plan
Neither side can configure one
most of all
Neither side has shown how this default hurts me!!!
cut out social programs..I am for it.
cut out the wars....I am for it
At this point I would like to note that Libya is supported by FR and her bots...since Obama can do no wrong and their "enemy" is completely at fault. Just shows how they must be paid mouths for the libs.
Cut out DoD and schools and all that free stuff...I am for it.
Cut it all out..get back to reality....then we can have a civil country . Till then the Bipartisan BS continues
As to FR saying who doesnt like a FR.
I like a FR for the 4 hours after going home from the club...the rest of the time they have no value.
Tell me about it. I was just calling the bluff of whoever made the original post. Conservatives are always flummoxed, as you seem to be, when confronted by a liberal -- or even another conservative -- who is willing to entertain raising taxes on him/herself.
Conservatives simply cannot absorb the concept.
Looks like Feisty is smarter than you too, Sean, since you cannot figure out how to be the first poster either. Looks to me like Feisty is batting 1.000 today!!
Thanks Pietro!
These Cheeto chomping morons can't see beyond their beady orange tinted eyes! lol
I've said it before and I'll say it again - SLOW & STUPID is NO way to go through life! ;o)
No vote yet? Trouble in Paradise?
The 14th Amendment is a law that the President has power to execute. Debts previously incurred are "authorized by law" as described in the 14th Amendment. Thus, the President has authority under Article II to act in whatever appropriate way would be available to honor those debts that have been authorized by law, as required by the 14th Amendment.
Anna Molly President Obama will not even attempt this manuever because he cannot win the constitutionality of it. He does not have the power to raise the debt ceiling. Section 5 of the 14th Amendment states, "The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." No where does it mention the executive branch. Additionally only Congress in Article 1 Section 8 in it's enumerated powers can "borrow money on the credit of the United States.
For a debt to be real it must be authorized by law. Who makes the laws? Congress, therefore it must be approved by Congress. Correct me if I am wrong but the Senate and House did not present or pass a budget last year hence no law (budget) to approve.
pelosi and the dems had 2 ^%$%$#@ yrs to address the deficit/spending and they did squat!!! the reps will win the wh in 2012 and and get things turned around. relax people, we go thru this nonsense every 20-30 yrs..............ie.....carter......LBJ.....FDR........
Richard ~ You are mincing too finely. Congress enforces the 14th Amendment by enacting legislation. But the power to execute legislation falls to the "executive" (i.e., President Obama). That means that when Congress incurs debt, the President has the power to execute the debt that has been "authorized by law." Congress has the power to borrow, through legislation, but Congress does not sign off on notes to China or anywhere else. The Executive Branch does that. The Executive Branch negotiates the deals and pays the bills. That obligation and power is delegated to the President by Congress when it passes appropriations bills.
Surely you are not arguing that debt already incurred for the wars and such has not been authorized by law. Congress may not have passed a budget, per se, but its appropriations, including the bills that funded the wars, Medicare Part D, and whatever other business Congress has been doing in the absence of a budget, all count as debt "authorized by law." Anyone knows that when you incur debt, you incur interest. Ergo, it is obvious that Congress knows there will also be interest on the debt it has authorized that will also have to be paid.
If the debt isn't "real," then why isn't John Boehner or anyone else making this argument? Congress knows the debt is "real" because Congress voted for it, one way or another, budget or no budget.
If the debt isn't real, theoretically, we could just stop paying it.
Imagine what that would do to the markets if we suddenly declare our debt to be fraudulent. China and our other creditors obviously think it's real or they never would have taken it on. Do you think that, if we take that position, our creditors will ever touch us again?
And that's exactly what the 14th Amendment protects.
p.s. to Richard ~ It is precisely because of this, that I believe the debt ceiling itself is unconstitutional. Congress has authority to make laws that "enforce" the 14th Amendment. A law purporting to invalidate any debt incurred by the United States that exceeds an artificially set ceiling, including the interest on debts previously incurred, does not enforce the provision that requires the US to acknowledge the validity of its lawfully incurred debts. Exactly the opposite, in fact.
Oh please, say what you really mean: "We don't want to do this again at a period much closer to the 2012 election because it will cost us (the democrats) votes."
Houston, I would say that taking an $8.6 Trillion debt and making it over $14 Trillion in 2 short years pretty much fiscally irresponsible....how about instead of raising taxes, SPENDING LESS.
Couldn't agree more, inthemiddle
Hobbits, Senator McCain? That’s not giving too much credit to the Hobbitses my precioussssssss. The Republican TEA Drinkers are more along the lines of Orcs and Goblins seeking to devour whomever they meet.
If I remember correctly the Hobbits were a simple people that lived like rabbits in Hobbit-Holes. These TEA Drinking Drunks called the Republican Leadership are loud, cantankerous Goblins that live in caves constantly mining and tearing Middle Earth apart.
President Obama, Boehner and Reid have called the Goblins out of their caves. But the Goblins hate the light. They hiss and gnash their teeth at any resolutions presented to end the standoffs.
I tell ya, you just can’t make this stuff up!
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
You're analogy made me smile this morning LouisJ! ;o)
excellent metaphor, LouisJ
Although I am a little surprised that McCain (in his 70's) has enough 'pop culture' to pull the reference out at all!
Do you wonder if he ever smacks himself for unleashing this brand of crazy on the country in a 'lamestream' kind of way?
And the Goblin Gollum says,
Repubs have passed three bills, the Dems refuse to even vote for the bills and yet they have absolutely no plan of their own!
WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME DEMS! GET WITH THE PROGRAM!
GET A PLAN! And stop screaming and blaming everyone but yourselves.
I will when you will. Did you happen to get the irony in the fact that your own post totally screams?
And what it screams is: "Get with MY plan and stop blaming ME."
It's very obvious now the kind of elements parading themselves as GOP/TB while some will deny always that this party is not made up "crack politician" according to Sen McCain. The party of my way or no other way. A party where members are actually calling for the country to default on it obligation and standing by it with audacity.
Successfully, the GOP/TB has derailed the steady revival of the economy that's been witnessed in the first few month on this year. Something you'll think they be happy with while the debate for a more harmonized ideas are sort for. Instead, they chose to be obstructionists and some how believe they'll rest power away from Obama by acting up.
To sabotage your own nation simply because you want power. it's not surprising since the senate minority leader and some very notable GOP figures confessed that their single motive is for Obama to fail. If Obama fails, the nation fails. This attitude of burn the village to save it is reprehensible. All we ask for is GOVERN and that means compromise.
Mr President, 14th Amendment please.
ol' McCain went down to the crossroads and cut a deal with the Devil in '08. I'm sure he does have some regrets. He's a better man than we saw then... or at least, he was once. There's a little glimmer of decency still in there, or so it looks as of yesterday re: the Hobbits.
LouisJ,
Huge fan of the trilogy and i have to say you nailed it. Keep it up.
Good morning.
One of the nice things about joining the discussion late is you get to read all the posts.
Just some quick observation..
Bill, Fairfax: You can say what you want about S&P and Moody's. They are still are the gold standard when it comes to rating stocks and bonds. Their ratings, in almost all cases, are based on financial info provided to the SEC. That's audited information and they rely on it. If they drop the US credit rating to AA, the recommendation of these "jackasses" will cost you and all other ordinary Americans a fortunes in higher interest rates on your home, car, credit cards, etc. Blaming the messenger is NOT the answer.
For those that think the 14th Amendment is the answer, even the Administration lawyers aren't so sure and do you really want a Constitutional crisis on top of all the vitriol that has been spouted to be decided by a very conservative Supreme Court?
Actually, I thought the comments of Senator McCain took a lot of courage. Has anyone other Senate Republican, besides Coburn, spoken out against his own party? That's a very respected senior Senator telling the TP and the GOP House to end this BS and lets move on. He broke Regan's rule, a man he admires, about never speaking ill about another Republican.
The Boehner Plan...if it has the Balanced Budget Amendment attached to it, has no chance of passing the Senate. Take it out and it passes cause without out it, the dollars are virtually the same as Reid's plan. If this fails...there's either gonna be a clean bill or nothing. Times run out for arguing.
Finally, the Democrats are continuing to move the goal posts as to what is acceptable...and yet thhey see this as win...cause polls sat the American electorate seems to have sided with them. If this is a win...if this is what this circus was all about, then this government is more dysfunctional than I ever imagined.
There was the McConnell- Reid parliamentary procedure to end this a week or to ago. Take it...done...no lines in the sand, no debilitating arguments...and a hell of a lot better than what the President is facing now. It was a gift....and would have accomplished all the goals of both parties
No Jo: Some good facts in your post...some inaccuracies..but a good post.
The market opened basically flat...guessing that we're waiting for the House vote and Senate and Obama's reaction.
Have a good day all.
Pius:
I have a new moniker for the GOP/TP "AINOS" => "Americans in Name Only". These guys are virtually against just about value and virtue that has made this country great. They are marching lock step to a totally different ideology. One based on Power and Greed.
This is not the American values that built this country. They look upon seniors, gays, women, veterans, children, the sick & disabled and those not as wealthy as a drag on their plans for the new "Great Society". They want every single drop of our blood while they refuse to cough up one single dimes worth of theirs.
Ira,
What's wrong with a freeze across the board, know increases on anything? Work with what we have, at least we will not be adding more to the over spending. The cuts they are proposing is wishful thinking, but nothing concrete. Harry Reid is using the two wars ending (wishful thinking) as part of his proposal. What?
Also, the average on the raising the debt ceiling is 8 months, so why not readdress it again in 8 months. It should be part of the 2012 election. People will be more involved and should see how our representatives deals with this. I am sure it would be an eye opener.
I am just a concern citizen, not a political junkie that you will find here at FR.
Navy..
The TP members I saw on the news last night were so disconnected from the realities of everyday people it amazed me. Absolutely no concern for what happens to everyone else in America as long as they keep that damned debt ceiling from being raised. One TP congressman said he introduced a bill to LOWER the ceiling. I'll bet you he doesn't even know what the debt ceiling is.
It's everyone...that takes a huge hit on this debate and 51 people in Congress refuse to recognize that or are so ideologically inflexible it just doesn't matter to them.
...and you're right...the poor and middle class will be the most afffected.
You could not make this stuff up if you tried.
thetotas..
That's capping spending...and it doesn't apply to this situation as it stands now.
The US Government works on a cash basis of accounting...not an accrual basis. That means that they pay our bills as they come do. If we accrued for the liability as it was incurred, the amount of Public Debt would be significantly higher.
So...raising the debt ceiling is necessary to pay debts already incurred...NOT new debts.
These are debts that were incurred by acts of Congress, passed by both Houses, and are coming due. These is NOT new spending by Obama.
By refusing to raise the debt ceiling, we are telling the world that we are unwilling to pay our bills. It's that simple. We incurred these debts by acts of Congress and are now saying we don't want to pay cause the bills are too high.
Stupid and hypocritical.
...and that is the whole "crisis" in a nutshell.
Ira Lapin,
Agree with you on almost all of your post, I don't want a constitutional arguement, wish they could have agreed to the McConnell parlimentary move. Boehner's bill with the BB amendment will never pass the Senate. McCain's Hobbit speech, I think he was talking about that Rep. from Utah Chaffretz (sp) when he conjured up his analogy. A lot in your post to agree with.
However, how have the Democrats moved the goal posts? From my perspective the Republicans are the ones moving the posts. They cried for cuts and reducing the deficits, but they wanted nothing to do with Obama's "grand bargain" $3 Trillion in cuts and $1 T in tax reform. They wanted cuts only and no tax increases yet they are against Reid's pure bill that contains only CUTS. I agree both sides are gaming us, however I tend to agree with the FR writer. Obama and Dems keep giving ground it is their MO. On this occasion with uncertain economic consequences, I will give them a pass. Do what it takes to raise the debt ceiling, cut spending. Give the Rep's a so called victory, whatever.
Ira,
First, thank for taking the time to answer my question. I understand about the raising the debt ceiling and I agree thats money is owed. What about after, when they start dealing with the budget, and per usual they cant agree, whats wrong with a freeze? Frankly, I dont believe either side will make the cuts that are necessary.
Also, the average on the raising the debt ceiling is 8 months, so why not readdress it again in 8 months. It should be part of the 2012 election. People will be more involved and should see how our representatives deals with this. Any thoughts?
Mark..
They've moved the goal posts out of the end zone into the parking area..
They gave up on revenues being included, they gave up on a one stage proposal, just cuts...which means entitlements also.....what's left from what they asked for? Not much...
This is going to be a GOP bill. Obama will not veto it. It's a huge win for the TP.
@ Ira:
In view of the fact that the market is up slightly as I write this, I find this article pretty amusing:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/28/news/economy/banks_debt_agreement/index.htm?iid=HP_LN
Apparently, Wall Street is still in the mood to bet against itself.
Well, the higher you bid, the farther you stand to fall.
Would you please give this bit of information to the right wing bloggers here who still keep insisting that the President has refused to compromise? As I see it, he has done nothing BUT.
@ devie
Ain't that the truth?
thetotas..
Simply put, you can't have sustained growth of the economy if you run trillion dollar budgets each year.
You need to bring the debt down so you're spending less on debt service and have lower bills to pay.
Spending is so out of control that it is close to destabilizing our economy...
We need to cut our debt from abot $15 trillion to about $10 trillion...over 10 years as a start. The 10 year time frame is because with an economy this fragile, you don't want to take take too much money out of the economy too fast. Also, if the economy does begin you turn in later years , you have the choice of tweaking the plan to reflect the new economic realities.
Hope that helps.
Gollum was not a Goblin!
Anna Molly..
You could not be more correct.
As I have already posted here today, the Democrat gave up on revenues being included, they gave up on a one stage proposal, just cuts...which means entitlements also.....what's left from what the Democrats originally asked for? Not much...if anything.
This is going to be a GOP bill. Obama will not veto it. It's a huge win for the TP.
Sorry my Conservative friends...the only thing you didn't get...well I'm not sure...is the Balanced Budget Amendment.
It that's not a compromise....and it really isn't cause it's more like a total cave...please tell me what is.
@ Geronimo Jackson:
LoL I know, but I had work with what I had.
Music to my ears, sir. I'm usually accused of not possibly being more wrong.
You made my day.
A few congressmen has spoken out against Boehner's plan during the 5 minute speeches this morning. One of them even had me convinced until he stated "no tax increase" and I walked away. I do not remember their names but I guess the phone calls and emails they have received has made them consider, in the least, raising the debt limit.
US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired
NavyBoy, you are getting old and boring. Your continuous stream of blatter about the GOP isn't bringing anything into the discussion. It's just a regurgitation of your previous talking points. Can you please find another progressive site to cut and paste from?
Now I see you are also a veteran, and for your service I thank you. I also see you do identify yourself as a disabled and retired vet.
Would you care to share with the community your retired rank and % of disability? I am curious.
Anna Molly..
You saying I'm a conservative? Tell Mixed and Spanky.
Sorry...but I read your radical, left wing, socialist, liberal, bring this country to a welfare state posts and....for the most part...I tend to agree with them.
Ira,
Reread your original post and got your language about moving goal posts. Agree. We agree too much and you are civil to boot this is getting scary. Hmmm.
Lets see well, I know you can't share my views on immigration reform. Whew! I don't want to be a ditto head with anyone :}
Yellowdog-Mark D..
Ok...so that's something we need to work on...right?
Have a great day if I don't get to speak to you later.
LoL That's twice in the same day, sir.
But I don't think you're conservative. Never really have.
What the boys think is totally up to them.
I think that just makes you reasonable.
You're right, the issue isn't the messenger – the issue is the CREDIBILITY of the messenger. Let's count some of the big stories the ratings agencies have missed: the New York City financial crisis of the 1970's, the Enron bankruptcy, the recent financial meltdown. These are all HUGE misses, but now we're supposed to cower in fear because these unelected goons are crying wolf?
As for just how much interest rates would rise in the event of a downgrade, the market will determine that not the ratings agencies. The market will decide whether a 25 or 50 basis point adjustment (hardly an economy killer) is appropriate – or even barely any adjustment at all. Because the big players need a place to park their cash, and the market for U.S. debt is the largest, most liquid, most transparent market in the world. The U.S. lubricates the global financial system and its debt instruments have historically served as the benchmark against which the safety of other investments is measured. Nothing in today's equation changes that – unless you believe the world en masse will be dumping their cash into Somalian debt
Large institutions and sovereign funds don't need Moody's or their buds to tell them what to buy or how safe U.S. Treasuries are. The whole world already knows, and what they know is it's safer to park their money here than any other place on the planet – a dynamic which has pushed the rate on 10 year Treasuries down from 3.4% at the beginning of the year to less than 3% today.
The 'sky is falling' fear mongering relentlessly pushed by the MSM only tells one side of the story. What I want to do is give folks with a brain the opportunity to hear the other side of the story – then let them make up their own minds.
Ira - have to disagree with your analysis of this potentially being a win for the tea party. I see it as a loss for congress as a whole and obama in particular. The only winners will be the taxpayer for seeing what congress and obama has become. Congress as forgetting what bipartisanship and cooperation is about. Obama as being more of a divider than unifier as well as being incapable of working off of any potential common ground in congress.
American..
I see it as a loss for the country and a win for 51 TP, freshman members of Congress who managed to hold the entire GOP and the country hostage and control the narrative in their caucus. Boehner, the Speaker and head of the caucus could not get his party unified behind him so do you expect the President to be able to compromise with in inflexible group that refuses to move off of no.
Bill..
It's not the credibility of the messenger...beg to differ.
The rating agencies are NOT auditors and take the financial info from audited reports filed with the SEC or directly from public accounting firms. They analyze the data...and if you want to say garbage in and garbage out....you'd be wrong. It's audited and opined on by very reputable firms. It's government filings and intentional misstatements will result in fines and jail times.
The whole country missed the mortgage bubble....the feds, the regulators....everyone... and Arthur Anderson. a big 6 firm, went out of business over Enron.
Treasuries may be safe but how safe? Are we showing a willingness to pay our debt....we can pay but are we willing...as of a few minutes ago the answer was still no. That does not instill confidence in an investor. Yields are moving up and that means we are increasing our cost of borrowing as interest rates climb.
We both know all this can be avoided by passage of an increase in the debt ceiling and a debate and adoption of either Bowles-Simpson or the Gang of Six Plan.
The messengers are credible. Our government is not.
Hunky:
Hunky =>"AINO"
My Military record is none of your d##N business and I will write what I want when I want as many times as I want and NO "AINO" is going to tell me otherwise - so get used to it or YOU go find another place to swoop and poop.
Navy..
We don't agree on a hell of a lot but your military record and your personal life is just that...yours and personal.
You keep doing your thing....that free speech thing and all.....
Keep well.
Ira, I'm starting to lean the other direction from where you are on this. We're running out of time to do any kind of a deal. None of the deals that have been offered will pass with Democrats or be signed by the White House. Nothing that's acceptable to the Democrats will get a single vote from the Tea Party.
That leaves us in a position where the only thing that CAN pass will be a deal that is capable of getting SOME votes from each side. There's no time left to negotiate anything complex. There aren't a lot of alternatives that fit those realities other than a clean debt ceiling increase, one that raises the debt ceiling and nothing else. Republicans and Democrats alike who are realistic enough to consider the consequences of not raising the limit will be able to vote for this, and the TP ends up standing on the outside looking in.
John B, Des Moines, IA
No...we're exactly at the same place and in one of my posts somewhere on FR I said there are only 2 choices left:
1. Clean bill
2. Take the McConnell-Reid parliamentary procedure and be done with it.
The parties are so far apart I don't see a compromise either...
Reid's gonna table the Boehner Plan...Stalemate again.
Until 2012, when the TP gets voted out, the will control the GOP caucus...they've proved that over and over again.
fiesty: A trough full of double bacon cheeseburgers makes you smile EVERY morning!!!! What a cow!!!!
The Tea Party is not a "party", it is a bloc of conservatively fiscal minded people who are doing what they are elected to do, sticking to their principles, and won't be bought off. Imagine that. Working to the interest of the country instead of feathering their own nests for graft and reelection. They weren't elected to compromise and they will not compromise because the financial ruin we are dealing with today is the result of compromise.
In the early 1930's Winston Churchill stood alone when he decried the coming threat of Adolph Hitler and National Socialism. He was roundly abused or ignored. Over time he was proven to be correct but only by standing on his principles and refusing to retreat did he prevail, to the benefit of western civilization. Likewise we can only hope that the 60 members of the House stand their ground on the principle that without fiscal discipline our nation will fold; we're broke and if someone can explain to me how spending more money will make us less broke I'm all ears.
Everything must be cut, everyone needs to feel the pain. The era of free government cheese is over.
Stand firm Tea Party. Not one step backwards!
Exactly the rhetoric that brought us to this situation.
Exactly the strategy that's brought our economy to the edge of a preventable disaster.
Exactly the attitude that's going to make the Tea Party a footnote in American history.
If everyone must feel the 'pain', Norm, then are you on board with raising taxes on those who can most afford it!
July 26, 2011, 6:00 am
Are the Bush Tax Cuts the Root of Our Fiscal Problem?
By BRUCE BARTLETT
Bruce Bartlett held senior policy roles in the administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush and served on the staffs of Representatives Jack Kemp and Ron Paul.
Whether revenue should play any role in deficit reduction is at the root of the fiscal impasse between Congressional Republicans and President Obama. One factor underlying the hard-line Republican position that taxes must not be increased by even $1 is their assertion that the Bush tax cuts played no role in creating our deficit problem.
It would have been one thing if the Bush tax cuts had at least bought the country a higher rate of economic growth, even temporarily. They did not. Real G.D.P. growth peaked at just 3.6 percent in 2004 before fading rapidly. Even before the crisis hit, real G.D.P. was growing less than 2 percent a year.
By contrast, after the 1982 and 1993 tax increases, growth was much more robust. Real G.D.P. rose 7.2 percent in 1984 and continued to rise at more than 3 percent a year for the balance of the 1980s.
Real G.D.P. growth was 4.1 percent in 1994 despite widespread predictions by opponents of the 1993 tax increase that it would bring on another recession. Real growth averaged 4 percent for the balance of the 1990s. By contrast, real G.D.P. growth in the nonrecession years of the 2000s averaged just 2.7 percent a year — barely above the postwar average.
Few people remember that a major justification for the 2001 tax cut was to intentionally slash the budget surplus. President Bush said this repeatedly during the 2000 campaign, and it was reiterated in his February 2001 budget document.
In this regard, at least, the Bush-era tax cuts were highly successful. According to a recent C.B.O. report, they reduced revenue by at least $2.9 trillion below what it otherwise would have been between 2001 and 2011. Slower-than-expected growth reduced revenue by another $3.5 trillion.
Spending was $5.6 trillion higher than the C.B.O. anticipated for a total fiscal turnaround of $12 trillion. That is how a $6 trillion projected surplus turned into a cumulative deficit of $6 trillion.
It is hard to know where these totally erroneous ideas come from. Federal revenue fell in 2001 from 2000, again in 2002 from 2001 and again in 2003 from 2002. Revenue did not get back to its 2000 level until 2005. More important, revenue as a share of G.D.P. was lower every year of the Bush presidency than it was in 2000.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/are-the-bush-tax-cuts-the-root-of-our-fiscal-problem/
___________________________________________________________
The optimal range of revenue seems to be 17 to 18% of GDP.
We are currently at 14%
It has been proven time and time again that tax cuts do not raise revenue. Yet we still hear the same old Myths and Lies.
The Republican Party is Not willing to do what’s necessary to move us forward to rebuilding what is left of this great country after experimenting with a failed economic policy.
All in the hopes of defeating one man and returning us to the same failed policies that got us here in the first place.
Amazing. Simply Amazing.
IR Great.
I have seen Mr. Bartlett several times in interviews and read his writings and he hits the nail on the head.
Thanks
Absolutely true IR, the Bush tax cuts are a major reason for this problem.
Where do I start? How about here-
Yesterday, Boehner was informed that there were miscalculations in his bill- the cuts did not total the number he projected. So, what did he do?
Well, he could have pulled an Obama- (as in, reaction to the stimulous failure)- you know, claimed he never said it would cut the debt that much, (as in, there was never a pronouncement that unemployment would stay under 8% if stimulous were enacted)- he could have claimed that the cuts really DID match his pronouncements, if one considered the funds "saved or created"-
Instead, he said my mistake, and rewrote the bill, so it DID score what he wanted.
Wow.
On the other hand, we have the Reid bill, which saves monies from wars not fought, hurricanes that don't hit, and, maybe, the money fairy stopping by with bags of cash.
Then, of course, there is the Obama "plan"- it's a secret, no one can see it, it is too blindingly brilliant to be revealed to mere mortals. Seems the press is getting a little tetchy about it, though. They seem to think that mysterious plans that are never to be revealed are a little, say, unAmerican.
As to revenues being below the norm, I might remind you that the economy is limping along- unemployment is stated at 9.2%, but only because BLS has recategorized millions of workers right out of the labor force. If those numbers were what they were just two abort years ago, unemployment would be 12%. That is called the magic of statistics. Does not employ people, though.
Obama's response has been pretty interesting. He shuts down a factory that would employ a thousand people, that would generate both employee and employer tax revenue, so, instead, there will be a lawsuit, that Boeing will, in fact, win- costing the Treasury money.
Won't cost Obama, though. He needs the union campaign funds.
There are other signs of his dubious success. Today, initial claims for unemployment apparently dropped below 400,000- to 398,000. Good news, right?
Well, consider the revision from last week- 418,000 has been revised up to 422,000. So, do the math.
Durable goods are down 2.1% from last quarter- and they were pretty week then. The Beige Book does not look so good, coming ahead of Friday's GDP announcement.
The late, great James Kilpatrick once wrote that Jimmy Carter was a pretty nice guy, but a wretched president.
For Obama, he'd have to invent a new term. Tell me, Klubhouse leader, what, exactly, has he accomplished, other than giving a no- brainer order to kill bin Laden?
Cause, the country ain't seeing it.
John ~ I have reached the conclusion that the river dividing us from Republicans is Denial.
I love the poll where 54% of the American people blame W. Bush and his failed polices, for the high debt.
So true.
njnbnj, The Liberals just dont understand why us Independents and center right people dont see their point and jump on the gimme gimme gang bandwagon. Sorry, I live in an area you should all come and spend a few days in. Come to Detroit walk down my street, but you better do it two at a time or Fiesty will be sporting a baby bump and navybouy will be in Detroit receiving with a 9mil cap in his Azz. You can see the results of our gimme gimme gov. 14 out of 22 familes 2nd and 3rd generation welfare families with no intent on ever changing that. They will tell you flat out that Mr Obama is going to give them more money because they voted for him and will again. Oh yea and lets see...... since last Friday we have had 6 murders, one a 5 year old little girl who had her skull crushed and then she was doused in gas and lit on fire in an abandoned crack house. Complements of the previous Democratic administration of Kawme Kilpatrick and his refusal to destroy the houses, he is currently residing in prison and up on racketeering charges .
Oh yes and as a reminder Ms Wasserman-Shultz " We own this economy" When oh when will you people listen to the great leader of the DNC!
No one takes Wasserman-Shultz seriously, not even people in her own party. She's just another clown in the Democrats parade of idiocy.
jollyoldsoul1 this is relevant to our current discusion how. I'll say again. If ignorance is bliss you must be the jolliest old soul in these here United States.
Tax cuts to small business gives the business owners money to expand their business.
"...the public wants balance and is willing to pay higher taxes..." lol. The public is willing for OTHERS to pay higher taxes. Raise everyone's taxes and see how that flies.
JoAnnaSmith1:
Of course, we all know that's not really true, and you won't be posting any links to back up your rant. That said, though, your statement could well be applied to yourself.
No one takes you seriously.
Terrific info, IR.
One of the reasons that GDP increases with increased tax rates, more money infusion into state and local governments for much needed infrastructure improvements, education, etc. By increasing the money infused into the economy by governments, it increases the demand for products from the private which further improves the economy. An improved economy reduces the deficit quickly. The budget surpluses of the Clinton years should have been used to pay down the debt but thanks to Bush 43 and the GOP, instead they squandered it and added trillions more.
It's very relevant IR, you see Detroit has been a Democrat controlled city for over 40 years. I'm not speaking for jolly, but I was born and raised in the Detroit area, it's so damn depressing to live in a area that policies are like Obama's. The Government controls the people there, whether how small that Government is, it's the policies of a Detroit, a Cleveland, a St Louis, a Memphis, and so on. This is not made up. For the life of me, I don't understand how people think that Obama is going to pay for their food, housing, gas, the list goes on. People honestly do believe this nonsense.
Exactly lori. The left has convinced the multitude that the Bush tax cuts benefited only the rich. What they fail to remember is the cuts were given to ALL. If the Bush cuts were taken away to raise taxes on the "rich" there would be a cry of epic proportions go up over the land When the rest of the minions realized that they just got what they hoped for. Not always a good thing.
jollyoldsoul1 - ahh my beloved Detroit. Where now we are trying to pay people to move back to a city with a 47% illiteracy rate.
Hang in there brother, Kwame gets out of jail next week and we will see if his words "You all set me up for a comeback" will come true.
Sad thing is, I know some in Detroit who, just like they will vote for Obama again, would for Kwame in a heartbeat. Sad, really, really, sad.
No Its not Paul and you know it. Attempts to deflect and change the subject will be met with appropiate Disdain.
WCO,
You saying Kwame is going to run again? HA!! Well, Detroit only deserves the very best.
IR - jollyoldsoul1 this is relevant to our current discusion how
Hey IR, you mean we are only suppose to post the things that you want to talk about? I went back up and re-read First Thoughts and couldn't find anything about the Bush Tax cuts in the story, but you felt like talking about a NYTimes story. Anybody tell you to stuff it?
Lighten up dude and you really should try to refrain from the brainless, ignorant, etc comments
You don't get it, WCA, (and Paul, too)-
The Klubhouse Kids think they OWN this board. They think that they, and they alone, get to determine what is discussed.
That's why they get so infuriated when people "don't respect their authoritay". . .
Sad, is it not?
I'm off to the golf course IR, but maybe you want to share that concern of deflection with your Gang of 14. Seems they had all of their posts prepared and coordianted this morning, and I will be darned if not a one of them has anything to do the First thoughts story.
In fact many are just re-posts from earlier this week. Guess you all really don't get tired of repeating ThinkProgress over and over.
But like I say, post what you want, I'll scroll past what I want and everybodys happy.
Have a great day here, IR. Just hoping my putting is better today than it was last weekend.
Oh it is IR, just facts IR, you don't have to except them. WCA pretty much explained the rest.........
The Reagan revolution was the demise of Keynes economic policies and the advent of supply side economics, which we use today, which is massive tax breaks to the rich. So really, Reagan caused the current debt crisis, as well as the Great Republican Recession which created a lot of the debt. Supply side economics has never worked, hence you get massive unemployment, less revenue so more debt, as well as jobless recoveries, and declining/stagnant wages/salaries, maybe even a huge labor surplus. The debate today is about Keynes economic policies vs. supply side economics, even though the economic illiterates don't know that. Whatever happens, we will still use supply side economics, or tax breaks to the rich, which will eventually increase debt, lower revenue intake, make recessions, jobless recoveries, high unemployment, etc. The only winning is we get rid of supply side economics. It's already on it's way out, only 20% support it, according to the President/polls, in the last election only 40% voted, one of the lowest turnouts in history, bringing in a whole lot of supply siders in one of the worst voter turnouts in history. The choice people won't make is whether they want Keynes or supply side, at least not an open statement. The way recessions end is thru deficit spending, or Keynes, but that deficit spending is on the demand side, not the supply side. To aid the supply side in a recession only worsens the recession, as is the example of our current recession, where all the spending went to the demand side, and we have a worsening recession. Even if we have a very weak recovery going, it is jobless. The real question is, how do you get out of recession and promote growth. Debt is just a product of recession, any fool expects debt in recession, but if debt is done right, you return to growth. What you did here is increase your debt to aid the supply side which worsened the recession. You increased debt by trillions, it's likely that if you had done only 1 trillion in aiding the demand side, the recession would be over. Keynes economic policies created the largest economic expansion the World has ever known. Supply side created the largest recession the World has ever known.
Change in gross Federal debt as a percentage of GDP:
Nixon/Ford : + 0.1%
Carter: -3.2%
Reagan 1: +11.3%
Reagan 2: +9.2%
G.H.W. Bush: +13.1%
Clinton 1: -0.6%
Clinton 2: -8.2%
G.W. Bush 1: +6.9%
G.W. Bush 2: +11.7%
Ahhh - I see we're back to the Tree-House resentment!
Let me clear this up one and for all, the liberals laugh & frolic in the 'tree-house' while the tea baggers whine & wallow in the septic-tank...
See how simple that is? ;o)
Thanks Waldo That's more like it
Damn is that what NoJo is whining about Red. Nojo get over yourself. I have
YUP! *yawn*
She still hasn't gotten over being voted 'court jester' rather than prom queen! lol
So to get things back on track.... (Sorry Fiesty)....It's about SPENDING NOT TAXING!
NATIONAL DEBT STATISTICS
President Barack Obama(UP TO JAN. 2011 HIGHER NOW!)
President George W. Bush
President Bill Clinton
President George H.W. Bush
President Ronald Reagan
President Jimmy Carter
President Gerald Ford
President Richard Nixon
President Lyndon B. Johnson
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10959884/7/national-debt-a-look-at-presidents-tabs.html
Where's your source/link Waldo?
Where's President Obama?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms
Nope justoneguy it's gotten beyond that. Try to keep up. We've already taken care of spending we're into revenues to balance the budget that spending cuts won't take care of.
Ummm, YOU'RE into taking more and more without abating a dime.... not "we" unless you're including the mindless group that's always in your company.
The (Obama) cuts include $1.2 trillion from across a range of hundreds of government programs and $1 trillion in savings assumed to derive from the end of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The legislation also assumes creation of a special joint congressional committee to recommend additional savings with a guaranteed vote by Congress by the end of 2011.
http://money.msn.com/business-news/article.aspx?feed=AP&date=20110725&id=13990027
More Obama smoke and mirrors....amost 1/2 the "cut" is an IOU for future withdrawal from Afghanistan & Iraq!!! What a farce....he couldn't even KEEP that promise unless he were re-elected.
The man is a complete joke.
He needs the $$ so so bad in order to buy his re-election...another blank check and we're NOT falling for it (again)!
Oops...the facts AGAIN cloud up the "issues" huh?
Hey Feisty--glad to hear from you today--in rare form as usual! A shoutout to Navy and all the others who are doing their best to try to inform the pie-eyed pea-brained pillocks (TP/GOP) who feel it is more important to tank the world economy (yet again) just because they don't like the man in the White House. "Cutting your nose off to spite your face" comes to mind. It would be comical to watch as the TP destroys the GOP, if it weren't for the serious consequences for all of us! If the US does default, I think we all know where to lay the blame--TP/GOP--and their chances for election/reelection will be nil. I also read that the Chamber of Commerce is having "buyer's remorse" over supporting the election of these TP nuts! Well, they should have been careful for what they wished for--extremists are not going to do what you want them to do--damn--those who were bought didn't stay bought--unless it was by Grover Norquist! He must know where all the bodies are buried!
"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly
Well I guess you told me there didn't you one guy. You're not very good at this are you. I can find talking points anywhere don't need yours.
Hey nurse -good to see ya!
Thanks for the Shout Out!
In all my years of following politics, I have never witnessed anything remotely as insane as the antics occurring in DC these days...
*shakes head*
Now, how about some *popcorn*?
wheres waldo? apparently off in space...
We live in a "trickle type economy" always have since our founding and will likely have it far into the future, unless government tells us what to buy and how to buy it. Every $ spent makes it possible for one or more to benefit.
I have always found it interesting that no economists plan or politicians legislation has ever addressed our cyclical recessionary periods of one occuring every 7 - 12 years.
yet still.....all insults and no substace - what a joke you've made yourself
justoneguy
Gee, how original. John Boehner could train a parrot to mindlessly repeat that mantra better than you do. Despite what you want to believe, taxes are the LOWEST they have been in 60 years. Taxes obviously need to be raised eventually as part of any plan to address the deficit. Nobody is proposing raising anyone's taxes immediately, although it certainly wouldn't hurt to force multi-millionaire hedge fund managers to immediately pay what their secretaries pay -- and one or two secretarial positions are the only jobs hedge fund managers ever create.
As for the deficit, most of it is due to the Bush tax cuts, the revenue shortfall caused by the Bush recession. the two unfunded Bush wars, and the Bush Medicare drug prescription giveaway to big pharmaceuticals that prohibits the government from asking for competitive bids to keep the prices of drugs down.
Sure Feisty--I certainly agree--in 41 years of voting, I have never seen such incivility and greed! I am minded of a book by Robert L. Heinlein--Friday--where the boss asks Friday what will signal the demise of a culture--and the answer was "Loss of civility". That was way back more than 20 years ago.
He also said "It is a truism that almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so, and will follow it by suppressing opposition, subverting all education to seize early the minds of the young, and by killing, locking up, or driving underground all heretics." --Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love . A very wise man--I have been rereading his work lately. Remember Stranger in a Strange Land?
Yes please--popcorn all around!
Great posts Where's Waldo--hope to see more from you, that's the sort of fact-based stuff that the Right simply doesn't know how to answer properly.
Thanks John B. The naysayers here sound like RNC blog 'plants.' Or, millionaires or billionaires with time on their hands.
miserableoldwretch, I am no Kilpatrick fan and personally I think he is a thug but correct me if I'm wrong. Kwame and his gang of theives inherited a city that was already in a death spiral when they started their ripping and running. Oh and those abandoned houses tearing them down starts at 20,000.00 a piece which is extremely low from what I heard on the news. The need for money and population groth in the city is real.
btw, isn't DTE offering those enticements to their employees? Oh and isn't DTE is a privately held company?
Herman Cain is
Maybe Louis, but I'm not so sure. :)
...crazy, confused, cantankerous, caustic, calamitous, coo-coo and cowardly...
...did I mention credulous and culpable...
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and oh yeah, crazy...
Raising Cain and a whole lot of other ignorance. Thanks TEA Drinkers...
LouisJ
That's going to make it hard for Cain to distinguish himself from the other GOP contenders for the nomination. Apparently, whoever acts the craziest and can make up the nastiest lies about President Obama will win the nomination.
Republicans are going to tank the economy, because their whole stance will kill the US economy. Cutting the deficit in an economic stagnation. Is the same thing as cutting up the credit card, right before you need to go to the hospital to get a surgery, and you have no other way to pay. If we cut the deficit by 300 billion this year and the cuts are domestic, that means 300 billion will be lost to the US economy. This will throw the US economy back into the Great Recession at full steam head, and heading for a Great Depression.
Either through cutting the deficit or full out failing to raise the debt ceiling, we will be heading for a Great Depression. Stupid people are still stupid, even if they get their way.
Purposely sinking the US economy, Republicans will be tried for treason and death will be swift.
THE REASON WE ARE IN THIS MESS IN THE FIRST PLACE IS FROM THE FOREIGN INTERNATIONALS PASSING FREE TRADE AGREEMENTS AND REDUCING THE US TARIFF TO ZERO. We need tariffs to balance the US economy, which means balance the trade deficits.
Some Provocative Thoughts on the Rating Agencies
Who are these guys? Here's one answer: the same paragons of analytic rectitude who were all asleep at the switch during the housing bubble. The same jackasses who kept giving passing grades to bundles of junk mortgages that were then peddled to unsuspecting buyers all over the world. Junk mortgages that eventually exploded in everyone's face and pushed all of us to the brink of economic calamity. Oh, and the same prescient folks who said Enron's paper was investment grade four days before they went bankrupt. Get the picture?
I know, I know, the low information leftist loons around here have one and only one villain who caused the financial meltdown and that was George Bush. But anyone with a brain recognizes things were much more complicated than that and we most especially recognize the ratings agencies had their fingerprints all over this problem. And now these very same folks have the unmitigated gall to threaten – yes, THREATEN – the United States of America? Maybe we can figure out a way to classify their actions as acts of economic terrorism and ship every damn one of them down to Gitmo.
I'm particularly struck by their collective decision to pile on now. Why now? Here's a thought: They know their reputation took a big hit after the housing bubble and now they want to polish their bona fides by taking a smack at Uncle Sam. Here's another thought: They're reacting to criticism from Europeans that they've been too tough on Greece and not tough enough on the U.S. And another: They're afraid of losing their near monopoly in the business as they see China start their own ratings agency (which has criticized the U.S.) and hear noises about the Europeans thinking about doing the same. Maybe none of that is true maybe much of it is, whatever. The point is it's not inconceivable these jokers have their own agenda in this matter and are not necessarily the impartial masters of the financial analysis universe they pass themselves off to be.
So if I could corral these folks into a padded room, here's a few questions I'd like to ask. Why should anyone view you as a credible source for casting aspersions on the ability of the United States to meet its debt obligations? Who empowered you to make pronouncements that can shake the economic foundations of sovereign nations? Do you see yourselves as bearing any responsibility for the economic consequences of those pronouncements? In democracies officials are elected to conduct a nation's business and in this democracy we have impartial organizations like CBO that analyze our debt issues -- so why should your unelected status give you a seat at a democratic table that is struggling mightily to address its debt problem? And last but not least, is there any conflict of interest regarding the clients who pay your fees and the debt instruments you grade, i.e. would any of your clients benefit if your agency were to downgrade U.S debt?
However those guys might respond to such questions, the reality is this: markets are already discounting anything these people have to say. Since the beginning of the year, the rate on 10 year Treasuries has DECLINED from 3.4% to less than 3% -- hardly what one would expect from a country whose ability to repay its debt was being questioned. The fact of the matter is the market knows the rating agencies are NOT the final word on investment decisions. The institutions and countries who buy U.S. debt also know their choices are very limited – no market in the world is as large, as liquid and as transparent as the market for U.S. debt. And such a market is not easily or quickly replaced. So Moody's, S&P and Fitch can rattle their sabers at us until the cows come home. That won't stop the U.S. from issuing some of the best quality paper in the world for the foreseeable future, nor will it stop the big boys from buying it. And that's why this aspect of the economic Armageddon scenario is just as questionable as the others.
P.S. Being a fair and balanced kinda guy, I would be remiss in not pointing out that right leaning folks like Larry Kudlow and Bill O'Reilly do not share my views on this issue. Fine, bring 'em on :)
http://www.smartmoney.com/invest/stocks/sp-moodys-downgraded-to-irrelevant-1311719817477/?link=SM_hp_ls4e
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/07/25/072511-biz-gasparino-1-2/
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/07/28/a_debt_downgrade_is_serious_business_99151.html
So here we are, rushing toward that inevitable point when Republicans are forced to fold on their demands that all sorts of conditions be attached to raising the debt ceiling—an administrative task that Congress has performed 74 times since JFK was President. Eighteen times during the Reagan Administration. Seven times during the GW Bush Administration…all without attaching all these strings that have put the functioning of our government and the fragile economy in jeopardy. What sort of misunderstanding brought us to this point? What sort of miscalculation caused the two sides to be this far apart at this critical juncture?
As it turns out there WAS no misunderstanding. It’s been the Republican plan all along, the outcome intended for over a year;
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2010_08/025458.php
Joe Miller didn’t make it to the Senate, of course. The citizens of Alaska had the good sense to send Lisa Murkowski back to Washington instead, but there are plenty of other Tea Party candidates who were successful. All of them owe their seats to Freedom Works, American Crossroads, and lots of other organizations funded by deep pockets Conservative elites. They were selected for their fanaticism and radical beliefs, and they owe a lot of favors to the Kochs, Norquists, Armeys, and other king makers. Why would their instructions be to do something so destructive?
What’s the take away, aside from the great advice to always do exactly the opposite of whatever Dick Morris advises? As I see it there are three; 1) Things are often not what they appear, or what they’re represented to be. 2) Conservatives don’t seem to learn well from negative experience, and 3) Never understate the willingness of the GOPTP power elite to hurt you in order to further their own interests.
Good morning Mr. Me First Bill!
I see that extra helping of brocolli last night worked wonders! ;o)
Bill, please keep up. The current Administration is trying to close Gitmo. These new terrorists would be shipped to Bagram.
Outstanding post JohnB!
What's unfortunate is, it's US who must continue to connect the dots since the MSM is either incapable or unwilling to do so...
Keep on keeping on the grand scheme of what's at stake in this country!
Ever notice these liberals hate Gitmo because...welll, for some reason, but always talk about sending Republicans there? Supposedly the place is so horrible that it's cruel to put terrorists there but liberals would like to see their own fellow Americans put there. Then they wonder why people always accuse them of siding with the enemy.
Let's have a clean debt-ceiling raise. It's either that, or forces the President to invoke the 14TH .
"Then they wonder why people always accuse them of siding with the enemy."
Only the crazy Republican-Tea Bagger people.
Gosh darn Miss Feisty, maybe I'll take some of those peas after all -- as long as I don't need to wash them down with kool-aid.
Goodness, how delicious.
But really, I hear grape Kool-aid is WONDERFUL with peas.
Or is that peace? I get so confused. ;-)
Instead of only concentrating on spending cuts, Congress should include an increase in revenue in order to establish a national savings account.
All citizens can easily understand the need to spend a bit more to cover unforeseen natural or environmental disasters, or an infrastructure failure; these are one-time expenses. However, it has become perfectly clear in the last few years that we need a way to protect our ourselves and our economy from the costs of normal business cycles and, the worst economic event, a financial collapse.
Had we established a national savings account 30 years ago, we could have easily covered today's costs of unemployment insurance and the safety net programs; without creating a budget deficit and the need to borrow money. We would have been able to cover the cost of bailing-out Wall Street, the auto industry, and still had funds to help keep ourselves in our homes and maintained the value of our biggest asset.
Just like we create savings accounts to protect our personal assets, we should protect ourselves in economic matters. We owe it to ourselves, we are worth it. Society is a collaborative means to accomplish individual ends; so social goals and individual goals are not mutually exclusive. No individual can 'go it alone' and be successful; not even Warren Buffet.
If we are truly interested in "not laying the burden on future generations" then we need to act responsibility and get our house in order. It is projected that this economic recession will cost us roughly $10 trillion dollars. Establishing such a fund would clearly demonstrate to investors and the world that we are worthy of their business investments and that we are a mindful and productive people. Currently, there is a high chance that our best jobs will be exported to Mexico. They have become an well-educated and productive people because of government investment. Can you say, "Wake-up members of Congress"?
We should also demand that any military action be fully-funded, through increased tax revenues, within 12 months of initial operations.
This should be enough to keep us out of the senseless wars.
By taking these two simple actions, we can avoid repeating the same mistakes and provide a secure future for those following in our footsteps.
We the people, ARE THE GOVERNMENT.
Great post, thanks for contributing!
DummyD:
Ditto John B. - Kudos and keep writing.
DummyD
Great Post
Thank You
This is a great idea, Dummy D.
How can republicans resist it, and then still call for federal aid when it is needed?
On second thought, what am I saying? Of course, they'll still find a way. ;-)
"Society is a collaborative means to accomplish individual ends; so social goals and individual goals are not mutually exclusive. No individual can 'go it alone' and be successful; not even Warren Buffet."
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Corporations which our supreme court has given "individual" status can and do "go it alone", unlike the citizens of this country they have no conscious, Patriotism, morals or compassion. They are designed to maximize profits period, if they have to steal, lie, cheat, kill, bribe, pollute, it is all irrelevant long as they make money, and the government has become nothing more than another tool for them to achieve their goal, whether the country is destroyed in the process has no bearing on their actions they will just move to another country and start the cycle all over again, greed in it's purest most repulsive form that's what a corporation is, completely devoid of any societal value, but with the rights of a citizen.
Wow you must have been all for Bush's plan to privatize Social security account then with the national savings accounts for each individual so it would be prefunded and never go bankrupt and the money would always be there. Something tells me you werent though right?
I don't think that's how it worked, Kirk. The very concept of the individual account was so that each individual could make his/her own investment decisions. If not, then how was it different from what we have now, except that Congress is the one that screwed up by raiding the fund, and not any particular individual, and yet Congress wants to punish everyone for that.
What would have made a difference, perhaps, would have been Al Gore's "lock box." Turns out HE was right, not to mention the duly elected President of the United States.
How'd that usurper work out for you, Kirk?
DummyD, I hope you realize you make too much sense! Terrific post. I like the idea of a National savings account--many states, Iowa is one, set aside a percentage of annual state revenues and places the money in a "rainy day fund" to be used when times are tough. It is one reason why Iowa was not hit quite as hard as other states were.
AM, thats how it was described in the press in that it would run like a 401(k) plan where you would have individual investment making decisions. I would personally like that but I dont have any links but I am pretty sure that the last discussions on the plan limited the investment choices to very few T-Bill or bank CD type of investments that wouldnt jeopardize the principle balances. The difference would be that in the current SS system, the recipients receive benefits that are currently 3-1 in terms of contributions including a decent rate of return. By the time our kids retire its close to 11-1 (not sure I believe that) under the current benefit regime because they will live longer etc. In a private account world, you would get back what you put in plus a return. Big difference and savings to the country. AS for the raiding of the so called lock box, I am not going to defend that regardless of political party. You guys want to label fiscal conservatives as a certain political party. I think Bush was a horrible president and not going to defend him just as I think Obama's fiscal policies are just bad. Doesnt mean I dont respect him on other political positions nor does it mean I wouldnt vote democrat which I have many times in my life. As for lock box, you and I both know that from a true cash flow perspective, nobody was ever going to keep cash sitting in a socalled treasury bank account, that never happens anywhere. Do people think their cash that they deposit at their local bank is actually sitting in some drawer some where? Most banks lend depending on their rating to as high as 10-1 and as low as 5-1 of their deposits. So the money you deposit is gone the minute you deposit it and loaned to someone else. So its not the lock box or raiding of the social security that bothers me, its the lack of transparency and accounting games playing and trying to fool the public by acting as if the funds are still there. Yes I blame republicans for that too.
As for usurper, maybe I am slow but what does that mean? Are you tweaking me with something I dont get? Spell it out as its a rainy thursday here in chicago and it must be impacting my thinking skills
Anna Molloy:
Touche'
The new AINOS => "Americans in Name Only" just keep spinning and lying. Nothing new.
Do as I say NOT as I do; More for ME and less you YOU. This is the "AINOS" new theme song.
Navy, You must be one of the Americans in name only because in this country and the values I was raised with, it was work hard, earn your money and help your neighbor when they needed it, it wasnt lets see what I can take from others that I didnt work for, earn on my own. Self reliance and responsibility is what this country is made of not trying to put your hands in the pockets of other people. Punish the success and reward those who made behaviorial choices. Why is it my responsibility to subsidize someone who wants to have kids, buy a home, go to college etc, come in this country illegally, pay for their education, pay for their health care? I am all for paying my fair share of taxes for the collective government services that we all need and enjoy but you want to put your fingers in my pocket to "balance" the inequities that you decide which is fair and which isnt. Nothing is stopping you from opening up a small business, changing jobs, moving to a different country, going off the grid. In my day, we worked hard to pay for our own things, now everyone wants the government to pay for it. Is that American Navy? Its you sir that lost the American Dream!
I liked the ideal that taxes would have to be raised to go to war. I think that would go a long way to end wars.
Any comment on this post?
Easterneagle
READ THIS AMERICA YOU THINK WE HAVE A DEBT PROBLEM?? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW BIG!!
Bernie Sanders of Vermont is CREDIBLE and one of the few honest politicians left in government.
Government Accountability Office) audit of the Federal Reserve was carried out in the past few months due to the Ron Paul, Alan Grayson Amendment to the Dodd-Frank bill, which passed last year. Jim DeMint, a Republican Senator, and Bernie Sanders, an independent Senator, led the charge for a Federal Reserve audit in the Senate, but watered down the original language of the house bill (HR1207), so that a complete audit would not be carried out. Ben Bernanke (pictured to the left), Alan Greenspan, and various other bankers vehemently opposed the audit and lied to Congress about the effects an audit would have on markets. Nevertheless, the results of the first audit in the Federal Reserve’s nearly 100 year history were posted on Senator Sander’s webpage earlier this morning. What was revealed in the audit was startling: $16,000,000,000,000.00 (TRILLION) had been secretly given out to US banks and corporations and foreign banks everywhere from France to Scotland. From the period between December 2007 and June 2010, the Federal Reserve had secretly bailed out many of the world’s banks, corporations, and governments. The Federal Reserve likes to refer to these secret bailouts as an all-inclusive loan program, but virtually none of the money has been returned and it was loaned out at 0% interest. Why the Federal Reserve had never been public about this or even informed the United States Congress about the $16 trillion dollar bailout is obvious —the American public would have been outraged to find out that the Federal Reserve bailed out foreign banks while Americans were struggling to find jobs. To place $16 trillion into perspective, remember that GDP of the United States is only $14.12 trillion. The entire national debt of the United States government spanning its 200+ year history is “only” $14.5 trillion. The budget that is being debated so heavily in Congress and the Senate is “only” $3.5 trillion. Take all of the outrage and debate over the $1.5 trillion deficit into consideration, and swallow this Red pill: There was no debate about whether $16,000,000,000,000 would be given to failing banks and failing corporations around the world. In late 2008, the TARP Bailout bill was passed and loans of $800 billion were given to failing banks and companies. That was a blatant lie considering the fact that Goldman Sachs alone received 814 billion dollars. As is turns out, the Federal Reserve donated $2.5 trillion to Citigroup, while Morgan Stanley received $2.04 trillion. The Royal Bank of Scotland and Deutsche Bank, a German bank, split about a trillion and numerous other banks received hefty chunks of the $16 trillion.
“This is a clear case of socialism for the rich and rugged, you’re-on-your-own individualism for everyone else.” – Bernie Sanders(I-VT)
When you have conservative Republican stalwarts like Jim DeMint(R-SC) and Ron Paul(R-TX) as well as self identified Democratic socialists like Bernie Sanders all fighting against the Federal Reserve, you know that it is no longer an issue of Right versus Left. When you have every single member of the Republican Party in Congress and progressive Congressmen like Dennis Kucinich sponsoring a bill to audit the Federal Reserve, you realize that the Federal Reserve is an entity onto itself, which has no oversight and no accountability. Americans should be swelled with anger and outrage at the abysmal state of affairs when an unelected group of bankers can create money out of thin air and give it out to megabanks and supercorporations like Halloween candy. If the Federal Reserve and the bankers who control it believe that they can continue to devalue the savings of Americans and continue to destroy the US economy, they will have to face the realization that their trillion dollar printing presses can be stopped with five dollars worth of bullets. [Regardless of whether this money is fiat money (money printed with nothing of value to back it), if it is a currency forced on society and the world, with enforcement by the Fed, IRS, the U.S. military, et al, --which it is-- the acts of the Federal Reserve are, in essence, the transfer of greater wealth to the rich insider banks and corporations, while the rest of the world grows poorer, and as the value of this funny money grows less and less in purchasing power. These insider banks, etc., then, exchange this funny money for gold and silver, the real wealth of the world, which, then, reinflates the world with more and more devaluing federal reserve notes. This, then, creates hyper-inflation, increasing the cost of all resources and commodities, while gold and silver climb to never-seen-before levels of value. This is how the Federal Reserve insiders steal the wealth of the world and why the rich get richer while the poor get poorer. It's the world's largest Ponzi scheme! The Federal Reserve is nothing but a front for a small group of families who run a very large and successful white collar criminal Ponzi scheme. This criminal institution should be seized by the U.S. Treasury department and all assets frozen, and returned to the coffers of the U.S. Treasury in order to settle the U.S. debt and help begin to balance the U.S. deficit. All banks (listed below) should be forced to return the money received by the Federal Reserve. All families in ownership of the Fed and their agents should be located, caught, tried and jailed for grand larceny and treason against the people of the U.S.A. All government agents who protect and help facilitate this criminal organization should be fired from the positions and similarly tried and jailed for grand larceny and treason. Meanwhile, Congress should return our country to its original monetary system (Lincoln greenbacks backed by precious metals) and, again, do its duty to regulate the coining of the currency of America as per the U.S. Constitution.] The list of institutions that received the most money from the Federal Reserve can be found on page 131 of the GAO Audit and are as follows.. Citigroup: $2.5 trillion ($2,500,000,000,000) Morgan Stanley: $2.04 trillion ($2,040,000,000,000) Merrill Lynch: $1.949 trillion ($1,949,000,000,000) Bank of America: $1.344 trillion ($1,344,000,000,000) Barclays PLC (United Kingdom): $868 billion ($868,000,000,000) Bear Sterns: $853 billion ($853,000,000,000) Goldman Sachs: $814 billion ($814,000,000,000) Royal Bank of Scotland (UK): $541 billion ($541,000,000,000) JP Morgan Chase: $391 billion ($391,000,000,000) Deutsche Bank (Germany): $354 billion ($354,000,000,000) UBS (Switzerland): $287 billion ($287,000,000,000) Credit Suisse (Switzerland): $262 billion ($262,000,000,000) Lehman Brothers: $183 billion ($183,000,000,000) Bank of Scotland (United Kingdom): $181 billion ($181,000,000,000) BNP Paribas (France): $175 billion ($175,000,000,000)
Do you realize that this email and article shows that the person clearly has no understanding of how the federal reserve works and what the fed funds rate is? These are conclusions based on a total lack of understanding of how our banking system works and how its intertwined with the federal reserve. When you deposit your money into a bank, what do you think happens to it? When a bank lends out money for personal loans, mortgages, car loans etc, where do you think this money comes from? Banks borrow money at the fed funds rate which is currently zero (as this report so adroitly says) and lends it to consumers for a variety of purposes at a rate of anywhere from five to ten to one for every dollar deposited from consumers or assets it currently has on its balance sheet. I am sure the federal reserve has given these banks trillions of dollars and gets it back in the form of deposits back from their consumers. This report is just silliness from goofballs like Ron Paul, Alan Grayson and the worst Bernie Sanders. There is no crime here just a few idiots getting together and not having a clue as to how our banking system works.
DummyD - interesting concept for a "savings account" the state of iowa has a "rainy day fund" to cover exogenous events as well.
However, SS was meant to be such a savings account as well, but as a suppliment for retirement. Since LBJ added the trust fund to the general fund in the mid 60's politicians have consistantly raided it to fund whatever and whenever it suited their agenda. From a practical standpoint, why should we expect the politicians at the federal level to do anything differently with a savings account?
Recently the Des Moines Sunday Register had two seperate op-ed pieces on how Iowans should spend a projected treasury surplus. Is it any wonder that politicians want to spend money sitting around when the people themselves want to spend it as well, with little thought of future needs.
Thank you all for your responses. Everybody seems on target except Kirk...this is not about personal 401Ks. The worst thing that occurred during the financial crisis was that credit stopped flowing to businesses of all sizes. My idea was that this fund would also solve this issue.
Yes Jody and american-205157, I picked-up on the 'rainy-day fund' Iowa, at least for now, still has. In the 1970s, California had a similar fund. It was reduced to $0.00 by Republican administrations over the years; it's that Bush logic. If others would only study the Proposition 13 dilemma, they would understand how not to proceed into the future.
Dummy -- most of them are proud of it because it effectively destroyed that evil demon public education.
Dummy, thanks for the kudos to Iowa for its well managed government. That was very helpful through the recession. Unfortunately we have a new TP governor who would destroy our resilience in future recessions. His wish list includes a requirement that any year in which there is a year-end surplus the legislature would be REQUIRED to implement a PERMANENT tax cut of equal size.
The end result of that would be elimination of the rainy day funds, and tax rates too low to provide adequate services during a recession. It would establish a permanent cycle of budgetary crises, similar to the way Prop 13 has made California ungovernable.
branstad is a TP governor?? My take is that the "rainy day fund" is not on his hit list. I would hope that its size be increased. Implementing a tax cut for consistent surpluses would benefit all. If surpluses beyond the rainy day fund are used for any programs, the legislation better be damn sure that the programs are sustainable. There are no free lunches!
Branstad wasn't this extreme on his first go-around, but the deal he made with Bob VanderPlaats to prevent a challenge from the Right made him one. After meeting with BVP Bob withdrew from the campaign. The next day Branstad announced his running mate, Lt. Governor Kim Reynolds who is so far to the fringe they rarely let her speak publicly, and only in controlled settings. The day after that VanderPlaats announced his campaign to unseat dozens of judges from their positions based on Cultural Conservative positions. After that Branstad received $43,000 in campaign money from the Koch brothers.
And Branstad's position isn't a tax cut for "consistent surpluses." It's that ANY YEAR there's a surplus there must be a PERMANENT tax cut of equal size. This policy would quickly drain the rainy day funds with no ability to ever refill them. It would create an unending cycle of budgetary crisis in Iowa. It's bad policy.
xxx
are you posting porn on this discussion?
Dems retreat?
Hey. How about the GOP/TParty has retreated?
They are apparently going from doomsday brinksmanship to backing Boehner. The TParty types are backing down to get Boehner's bill passed.
How does that become the "Dems retreat?"
The media is a money making racket that needs to level the playing field as much as possible. By making these headlines, they pique curiosities but have no way of backing them up. If you take all of the sites and news programs and attempt to mash them together, you'd get a mosaic of greed and control that has the same appearance as the TEA Drunkeness you are witnessing in Congress.
The media pundits have no idea they support the evils of the world, they are slaves to the producers and the producers are slaves to the board room and the board room is slave to the love of money...
and the rest, as they say, is history...
White House Memo
President on Sidelines in Critical Battle Over Debt Ceiling
By JACKIE CALMES
..."No measure can pass without the president’s signature, so Mr. Obama is far from irrelevant. But his limited ability in a divided government to affect the legislation and his inability before now to shape a compromise with House Republicans, many of them dedicated to never compromising with him, is proving the most significant test to date of his campaign promise to bridge the two parties and make Washington work."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/us/politics/28obama.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
@dangerfield
The president who has called for a balanced approach and a"Grand Bargain" still looks like he is trying to bring the parities together. The voters see Congress as totally dysfunctional. Lokk at the House infighting this week.
He will get the debt ceiling raised at some point. He won't get a Grand Bargain, or balanced approach. The voters will speak in 2012. They are seeing what an "unbalanced, or my way or the highway approach" looks like.Let the tea party Republicans run on that image....
Wisconsin recall elections will give us some evidence this summer how that is working to the Repub.
STILL WAITING FOR OBAMA: For the third day in a row, President Obama has no public appearances scheduled as the deficit debate wears on. The only items on his Thursday schedule released to reporters are his daily briefing with advisers and separate meetings with Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
It's tough to say exactly what Obama's up to, but on Wednesday, when the president's schedule was unusually blank, press secretary Jay Carney said Obama was in "a lot of meetings" and made "a lot of phone calls.".
http://www.politico.com/politico44/perm/0711/still_waiting_0e60b0ce-6972-4283-8d8f-55deeb46a981.html
"...breakdowns. Standoffs. Near chaos on Capitol Hill. And, now, a piteous basket of pathetic final-hour fixes that could yield a downgrade of the country’s credit rating and aren’t durable solutions: Band-Aids where a tourniquet was once discussed. . Will there ever be any money or oxygen for actually getting stuff done? That was part of what a grand bargain was supposed to accomplish: not just badly needed fiscal discipline but badly wanted Obama liberation;
(snip)
"...it’s hard to see how this embarrassing mess doesn’t taint you. There will be questions about whether you put your marker down at the right time, with enough specificity and force. There will be assertions that you didn’t make a persuasive and coherent enough case to voters.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/opinion/28bruni.html
Obama is doing what he is supposed to be doing, waiting for Congress to send him a bill to evaluate, then he can veto it or sign it into law, the President does not write legislation, get it. Blaming the President for not introducing legislation he is not allowed to write to begin with is a rather stupid argument to most people, but hey knock yourself out.
The reason he is absent, dangerfield, is simple-
Every time he appears, his approval goes down.
See, people get reminded that they voted for someone who talks a lot, but says nothing. It makes them angry. They are confronted with the wilted balloon of "Hope"- and the reality if the "change".
Empty rhetoric has not translated into improvement- in employment, GDP, or the debt. In fact, all of those things have been worsened by his presidency.
His childish insistence that he is right, and everyone else wrong has worn thin. His lies and embellishments have earned him contempt. His abject failure is apparent to everyone save himself, and his sycophantic media.
So, he stays out of the limelight during the latest crisis he has precipitated. Now, will someone tell me how he campaigns by staying out of sight? Cause, I'm thinking it may not work out so well.
Reports confirm decelerating economy
"...On Friday, the government will release its broadest measure of economic activity for the spring, and forecasters are expecting it to show a painfully weak recovery. Gross domestic product is forecast to have risen 1.8 percent in the three months ended June 30, almost identical to the 1.9 percent rise in the first quarter.
Two reports Wednesday confirmed that the economy was decelerating even before the standoff over the federal debt ceiling came to a head in July. The Commerce Department said that orders for durable goods fell a surprising 2.1 percent in June; analysts had forecast a 0.3 percent gain."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/reports-confirm-decelerating-economy/2011/07/27/gIQAfmIkdI_story.html
While Rome burns...
Remember, "Where are the jobs?"
Republicans?
Democrats?
Bueller?...
Dangerfield and NoJo, you are both so transparent.
When Obama makes public appearances, you criticize him for grandstanding and not doing the country's business. When Obama is not out in public, you criticize him for hiding and shirking and avoiding.
The office of the President carries with it many responsibilities. Dealing with congress, dealing with concerns overseas, dealing with budgetary concerns, dealing with matters of state, dealing with national security. Some of these we see, some we do not. Some are for public consumption, others are not.
Get over yourselves and think about doing something constructive rather than just throwing stones.
No Jo - I tend to agree with Fielden. What would Obama's appearance today do to help things move forward? If anything his words could galvanize the opposition? The Pres. will make a reaction after the House acts.
Obviously the House will vote on the Boehner bill. If it passes and not sure if the Tea Party will let it, then the drama will move to the Senate. Our question should be what will Harry Reid do? Remember last week the GOP broke off negotiations with Obama. If Reid puts the House bill to a vote with a BB amendment it wil fail. No way it will get 60 votes. If as FR suggests they will be compromise on a bill combining Reid's ideas and Boehner's ideas I wonder how that will work.
Perhaps cooler heads will prevail and there can be some type of McConnell agreement giving the Pres. power to raise the debt ceiling. Wow who would have thought I would be arguing for something that could have come out of the unitary executive theory.
What do I know No Jo, I'm just one of the fooled masses in your narrative.
If you had an argument you wouldn't have to criticize the president's critics for being critical.
In my case, you should email Jackie Calmes, and Mr. Bruni, at the NYT, as they are the "sources" of my "transparency".
In many societies, including ours, criticizing the people you elected IS considered something constructive, in fact the president himself is critical of the congress and was very critical (and rightfully so.) of his predecessor during the campaign of 2008. My wife and I voted for him, so I have a stake in his performance, and a right to my opinion, as do you. The difference is that I believe you are entitled to your opinion.
So thanks for the advice, but how does one get over one's self?
I see NJ is once again throwing out the talking point of a declining approval rating for President Obama...
and his approval is still HIGHER than Reagan at this point in his presidency, within the margin of error from Clinton at this point in their presidencies...even as he's in the middle of the biggest political storm the GOPTP has been able to throw at him. http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/presidential-approval-center.aspx
Some disheartening news today from the Heartland --
It turns out that Governor Walker is not fundamentally opposed to all family planning services, after all. He’s just opposed to family planning services, like Planned Parenthood, that don’t match his personal religious beliefs –
http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/city-hall/article_d0b40200-b7cf-11e0-8478-001cc4c002e0.html
I don’t think this requires further comment from me.
On the federal front, we have yet another example of The Shock Doctrine in action. While we are distracted by the mud wrestling spectacle created by the manufactured budget crisis, Congressional Republicans are quietly working to dismantle longstanding environmental protections –-
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/science/earth/28enviro.html?_r=1&ref=science
I always love to hear conservatives talk about how we can't afford environmental protections. I am still trying to figure out how we can do anything BUT afford them.
Someone please tell me again about that “shared vision” thing.
If we are ever lucky enough to unify long enough look for a "vision" again, like the people of Beijing, we probably won't be able to see it through the smog.
Oh, and in that same connection, maybe also tell me about that “legacy” that Republicans insist they are so anxious to leave to their grandchildren.
By that, of course, conservatives usually mean “money.”
But, honey, money can’t buy clean air and water or replenish depleted resources.
Or in this case, money won’t, while it still could have.
Anna Molly:
Another great post from the first State that exposed the GOP/TP Party for what they are. America is watching you guys and many are following your lead (leadership) on how to handle this mess.
Tomorrow is Friday and the first drink and "real" Buffalo Style Chicken wings are on me at the DDI tomorrow. Stop by and say hello and have a real Chicken Wing(s).
See ya later and great posts this week.
I can't wait until Walker is re-called.
lmao....... Thats going to be a very long wait! Just like here in Michigan! The only people who dont like Mr Snyder are public union employees and teachers! In other words the minority. I know how much you people hate that! But here we have the first actual budget in 8 years and only 6 months into his governorship! Sorry we elected them to do just what they are doing and we are the majority, independents will decide this next election.
@ Navy:
Will do. I'll bring some chipotle potato salad to go with the wings. And, as always, thanks for your great posts, above.
@ Job1:
Me, too, neither. And, as always, thanks for your support and the wit and humor you bring.
Snyder's latest job approval rating? -- 57 percent disapprove.
http://michigan.onpolitix.com/news/60030
Walker? I thought Boehner was this week's boogeyman to liberal whiners? Or is it Bachmann this week? Or her husband?
Anna Molly:
I hear from my Wisconsin connection that they are already collecting signatures to recall Walker. It sure is frustrating to have to wait until Januay.
@ Damage 123:
All of the above. Obama is always your side's bogeyman, when it isn't Pelosi, or Reid, or even Joe Biden.
Now do us a favor and get some "damage" control. And when you're ready to be civil, we'll talk.
I signed something myself, but I think it was only a pre-recall petition to get names for canvassing later.
Indeed, it is frustrating, but the recall elections will tell us better which way the wind is really blowing. In the meantime, friends like all of you keep me hopeful.
Anna Molly really, remember the song "Anything you can do, I can do better?" Detroit Free Press
"Snyder’s R job approval was also improved, with 34% calling it excellent or pretty good, and 57% fair. those figures were 27% positive-60% negative in May.
Stabenow D was viewed favorably by 47% of voters, with 35% viewing her unfavorably. Her job approval numbers were 38% positive/51% negative. Stabenow fell slightly by both measures "
Damage
How about that great democratic idiot Cynthia McKinney who is going from Islamic country to Islamic country bad mouthing the USA, kinda like her mentor going from country to country apologizing.
She's so friggin' stupid she's probably going to countries where she's not even allowed to drive. What a simpleminded female dog she is. I didn't hear about this. I'll check that out. And the libs here have the nerve to call other people traitors. I think the average IQ in her district is below that of a gnat. Also, they hate white people and they know that she does too.
This sort of comment has no place anywhere here, and especially on a thread that I've started where it's not even remotely relevant.
I guess it just goes to show what you are. Damage control is definitely in order.
Anna Molly, thanks for pointing out that jollyoldsoul's statement about the supposedly overwhelmingly positive support for Snyder simply isn't true. From your link;
Yet jollyoldsoul continues to insist that his point is correct in spite of having been disproven multiple times. Political operatives call this "spin", but the rest of us normally call it by a different name.
'When people get overextended, they stop buying foie gras and go for braunschweigger instead.'
But when people have already run up the credit card bill, they have to pay it. The "real" decision is how to budget the future. The debt ceiling is like your credit card limit. If you've reached the max, and the next month's interest charge will put you over the max, and into default on you card, you have to ask the bank for an increase in your limit. It doesn't mean you can charge more, it means you won't be in default. How you pay the bill down and pay your ongoing expenses are a budget matter. Plus a government is a little more complex than a family living on lunch meat. But to stay with your analogy, a family living on lunch meat isn't going to be healthy or prospering if they aren't also putting money away for retirement, college and health care. If all the family can do is eat lunch meat, then they have a revenue problem - not a spending problem. The GOP wants to put the country on a lunch meat diet and ignore what a government is supposed to do. Worse, they are letting the rich uncle live under the same household without contributing, while all around him eat lunch meat.
The Congress does as it darn well pleases no matter what the people want. We vote these people into office to at least consider our wishes, but they go by the wayside. I know you have to do what is best for all of the people, but special interest seems to get the nod. Maybe if they held an election and no one showed up that might get their attention.
Joann, I have to beleive that the republicans are doing what their support base is telling them to do. They know they have two choices vote what the voters want and get re-elected or oppose what they want and do not get re-elected. This will be easy to find out, come election day. I believe the liberal/progressives will be surprised and angry when they find out what really happens. I know none of you can understand why people dont support your views in majority numbers!
Only in America could the same folk who ran up the debt stand in front of cameras with a straight face and pretend that it was all President Obama's doing.
Only in America could the same folks who shamelessly got rich selling junk mortgages to poor folks and stealing retirees money in ponsy schemes now portray themselves as victims because they have to pay income taxes on their ill gotten gains.
Only in America could there be a need to "negotiate" to rescind gifts of tax payer money to already rich corporations who get rich in America but pay zero income tax here.
Only in the America could the media look at a deck so rigged in favor of "corporate people" over human people and declare that "Republicans won" because they got what they wanted, all the while ignoring the fact that they are systematically destroying this country for their own benefit.
Oh well, as long as they are "winning", there is nothing to worry about, right?
Yay team.
Only in America does the party that tries to be responsible, clean up the mess left by the other folks and negotiate in good faith for the benefit of all citizens get labeled as "losing" when, for the sake of avoiding a crisis, it compromises with people who have publicly stated that their only goal is to bring down the President.
Only in America...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119838/quotes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9XpjCeEo6g
Only in America...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWrCRPldVZk
Only in America...
Only in America.....do we use the word 'politics' to describe the process so well: 'Poli' in Latin meaning 'many' and 'tics' meaning 'bloodsucking creatures'.
http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/america.htm
That's quite an interesting spin on things, Nashville, considering that a good number of Democrats gave Bush 43 his way when he occupied "1600."
They not only voted FOR the Iraq war, but they also voted to continue funding it several times over, including your hero Obama.
You are right in essence, that Bush and the GOP created most of the economic mess that we're in now.
However, the thing you don't see (or, perhaps the thing you REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE) is that Obama has been President now for two and a half years.
He had a Democratic majority to work with for the first two years he was in office.
Yet he STILL couldn't / didn't fix the economy, create jobs, end both wars, and "change" Washington D.C. all of which he PROMISED to do when he was campaigning for the Presidency.
None of what's going on now would be happening if he had done those things like he PROMISED...and I don't want to hear the same tired old excuses about how it's all his predecessors fault, and "he needs more time," ya-da, ya-da, ya-da..........
Bill Clinton inherited an economic mess too.
But, by this time in Bill Clinton's Presidency, the Deficit Reduction Act was passed, and The Crime Bill was being drafted, waiting to be brought out on the floor for a vote.
What will it take for people like you to see, that Obama just isn't "the guy?"
He's a great talker, looks good in a suit, and has a real nice smile. Beautiful wife and kids too.
But, when it comes to "getting it done" for the American people.....he just isn't the guy.
The Democratic Party really screwed up when it nominated him, over Hillary.
Dear J. Merle:
President Obama is doing a great job. There is no "right way" to eat a turd sandwich. I am sorry if your unrealistic expectations have left you disappointed. You'll get over it. Hillary has.
Only in America can someone who befriends domestic terrorists, convicted political racketeers, and racist religious cult leaders become President by telling you that his association with such miscreants isn't important.
Only in America can the President use an incident in which someone who doesn't want to show their I.D. to the police, and who then calls them racist, as an opportunity to pontificate on the "why's and wherefore's" of race relations in this country, by hosting an afternoon beer tasting on the White House lawn.....instead of keying on a sagging economy like a laser beam as he SHOULD be doing.
Only in America can someone win a nomination for his party's Presidential candidacy, by chortling repeatedly about how his opponent voted for the Iraq War.....then, himself, vote to fund that war MULTIPLE times before leaving the Senate.
Only in America can someone promise to "change" the way Washington operates, promise to get us out of two wars, promise to fix the economy, promise NOT to argue with Republicans......then not do ANY of these things (except for arguing with the Republicans) and claim "victim" status, all the while blaming his predecessor for the things that he himself cannot fix.
Only in America can a guy who's done NOTHING become President, and continue to do NOTHING be protected by a national media which refuses to ask him the tough questions, and refuses to hold his feet to the fire for an explanation of why he hasn't kept his campaign promises.
Only in America can a guy not get anyone in his own party to vote for his budget proposal, and yet still be exhaulted by some as the "next coming......"
Dear America,
President Obama is doing a great job. There is no "right way" to eat a turd sandwich. I am sorry if your unrealistic expectations have left you disappointed. You'll get over it.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
doing a great job...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/direction_of_country-902.html
unrealistic expectations...
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=15702878345
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tWjVNXOWw9k/TZmRfNKeZ0I/AAAAAAAAP4E/vo3AE0g4CoY/s1600/I+told+you+so+Hillary+Clinton+2012+-+2.jpg
http://skydancingblog.com/2011/07/26/late-night-we-told-you-so-hillary-in-2012/8e729f55d22d/
Hillary has...or, has she! lol
LOL....."there's no right way to eat a turd sandwich"
Thank you for that intellectual interlude, Nashville. Shows us right where your head's at.
P.S. Thank you for reminding us all that expecting a politician, ANY politician to keep his word is "unrealistic.".....Wake up and smell the coffee Nash. Obama doesn't represent "change," and he hasn't done SQUAT.
Clinton was also able to raise taxes several times. Clinton did not have a congress obstructing everything for obstructions sake.
Clinton also did not have the unreasonable hate from people like you.
You understand the hate don't you? Something just galls you when he gives a speech? How could we expect someone like him to be president?
Nothing is hidden in your little rants.
Americans First, Clinton's increase in government revenue came from one of your inconvienent truths. He lowered the capital gains rate and that increased revenue not his increase in the top rate bracket. He increased the top bracket while lowering the capital gains rate and revenue from the stock market boom resulting from low rates during increased investment skyrocketd. Sorry but you cant use Clinton as a source that increasing rates increase revenue
LOL.....there it is folks!!!!!!! The first glimpse of the Obama battle-cry for 2012; "Vote for our guy, or we will make veiled accusations of RACISM against YOU!"
For the record, Clinton didn't raise taxes "several" times. He raised them once as part of the deficit reduction act which Greenspan wholeheartedly endorsed.
And by the way, that legislation passed both the House and Senate without a single Republican vote. So, I guess the GOP gave him "the business" too. The difference was / is that he knew how to handle it.
Oh, and please don't project your simple minded loathing for anyone who disagrees with your political views onto me. Your right, there's NOTHING hidden in any of my posts, because I have NOTHING to hide.
Clinton went through 8 years of; a) being accused of murder on national TV by Jerry Falwell; b) having Ken Starr and the republicans go over his personal business dealings with a fine tooth comb (gee, I wonder what would happen if we did that to Obama.......especially since the purchase of his Kentwood estate was brokered by a man who was found guilty in federal court on 16 counts of political racketeering); c) having them publicly expose the solacious details of a personal indescretion for nothing other than political purposes, and d) having radio IDIOTS like Rush Limbaugh name-call and verbally assault his wife and daughter.......YEAH RIGHT, Clinton didn't have an "unreasonable hate" directed at him.
You just don't like the undeniable fact that Obama is inept. You'll do anything / say anything, up to and including throwing out a veiled "race card" in order to divert attention away from the fact that you have no solid argument which would indicate otherwise.
It's YOU who have been exposed here, A.F. You've shown us all exactly what to expect from the Obama camp next year......"vote for him or YOU are a racist!"
Nashville:
We all know you love Obama's dirty drawers but the one thing you forget is this; Obama knew when he entered the campaign that the country was in a recession. He didn't have to run for the POTUS. When you take a job; you take it AS IS. It becomes YOUR problem irregardless of the condition. If you don't like it, keep it moving.
He could have said "no thanks it is too jacked up right now". He can't keep blaming shyt on Bush. Bush was ONE man. It is a lot of Democrats in Congress and around the country that benefitted from the so-called Bush policies too.
Tell me a policy that bought your personal standard of living down........You still have money to waste on the internet and cable T.V., so I guess there is none.
For those who like to ponder about "What if"...
I personally think that Obama has a very good chance of losing in 2012. A lot the population has become disenchanted and rightfully so seeing the economic situation we are in. That being said.
Opinion of poster below....
If a Republican wins in 2012 things will get worse. Despite the anti incumbent fervor and the showing of their true colors, Republicans are assured to win the Senate and keep the House. With a GOP president to boot the carving up of our entitlement programs started this year will become complete.
After irrepairable harm to our economy, Ms. Clinton will rise from the ashes and run for President in 2016. No one will be able to beat her.
It will not matter.
This is the new normal. High unemployment, feeble economic growth and escalating fights over the fractured, divisive government.
They will wait until the last minute and give the President a clean debt ceiling increase, which they could and should have done months ago, all the Congress has done is piss off time that should have been spent trying to stimulate job growth, but as we all know one party is committed to block anything that could help the American economy or the American citizen, they know full well they are causing harm to the country but the country be damned they want to make the President look bad no matter the consequences, is a party that advocates acts of treason against this country really the party we want to control it, please.
If they don’t give the President a clean debt-ceiling raise, it could force the President to invoke the 14TH .
he will do it Sunday night.
We can only hope he will!
Not a chance. If he pulls that move, you will see an uprising that makes last Nov. look like a day at the park. Your messiah does not have the guts to do anything. Every move he makes is based on the polls and what group he needs to pander to. Fortunately, center right citizens out number parasites and leftists.
If he saves the Country from default, the American People will rally in support. The people are now seeing what dirt bags these Republican-Tea Baggers are.
JamesDouglasMorrison proclaims : Every move he makes is based on the polls and what group he needs to pander to.
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Hey Dougy, if that were true the President would have already pulled the trigger on the 14th amendment dealyo, so your point is pointless. Look at legitimate polls, hint, any polls not on FOX.
Job1:
What is this "The American people"? There are just as many Republicans in America as Democrats. Just say the Democrats will rally around him.
Raising the Debt Ceiling is done on an average every eight months.
Obama "The only bottom line that I have is that we have to extend this debt ceiling through the next election, into 2013," President Obama said last week.
This is his only bottom line. Has nothing to do with the 2012 election, sure it does.
Forget polling - I think it is time for the unemployed, under employed, and other poorly treated "human people" to stage a sit in at the Congress.
These folks need a wake up call about who it is they are supposedly "representing".
Now you are talking my day tactics Nash...LOVE IT!
There is a LOT to be said for such activism. Wish I could get Rubin, Hayden, Davis or some of them to help organize. We got stuff done before, I believe it could be done now.
Thank you - got my blood pumping this morning!
Great plan, and keep calling Congress.
Have any of you ever thought that "Maybe they are REPRESENTING the people that VOTED for them"? They are doing exactly what they were sent there to do.
You guys were whining and crying about professional politicians before the new Congress was elected and now you want the old professionals back.
Well, yeah... the "old professionals" did not sign pledges with some tea-nut nobody that prevented them from doing their job. DUH!!!!
Dead man walking. That's us folks.
It is clear to me that all of the voting by the house is being done to give them cover in the next election. It is also clear that at the last minute the President is likely to be presented with a clean debt limit bill which he will sign just in advance of the Aug. 2 deadline. This is the same bill he presented to congress in January. Obama will prevail.
I have to believe that the Republicans are doing what their constituents are telling them to do. I know many conserv and middle of the road (I) people who are telling them to hold the line. And again I know that angers you liberals/progressives but it is what it is!
B. S. Jolly -
EVERYONE knows they are doing what Grover wants them to do only. But, hey... keep spinning. November next year will tell the tale.
I have to believe that the Republicans are doing what their constituents are telling them to
The American people are telling them to take away the tax breaks for the rich. Are they listening?
Ok gentlemen, I dont believe your correct! However I will not debate it. We will see in 2012 who has it right. If they are pandering to one guy Norquist and ignoring their people then you have nothing to worry about correct? They will all get voted out. But please take into consideration Liberals are the minority, its us Independents who will elect the next government! As one of your liberal posters said earlier...... this is a country that elected GWB twice. I suspect your a bit over confident!
Yes, mostly correct... except surviving until 11/12 through this Norquist inspired onslaught.
But please take into consideration Liberals are the minority, its us Independents who will elect the next government!
I disagree. There are more Democrats than Independents. Also, Republican don't always own Independents.
I stand corrected. There are more people that are Independents, than Democrats and Republicans.
However, I stand by the statement that Republicans don't always own Independents.
Independents jumped to 38 percent
Democrats 31 percent
Republican 29 percent
Of course all of these numbers go up and down.
Gov Christie is a cold-hearted cow and will soon need help if not already bathing himself. If you are in the public eye and as mean spirited as himself then you can look forward to this kind of scrutiny, so stop being babies and tell it like it is. THis is a wake-up call for him take it or leave it!!
Jobs1, yep the independents are many, as well as those from the Republican party. Dems abound, but in Florida it is proven they have a hard time voting for candidates. And will all Dems show up at the polls this election?
Let's see, will passing legislation for the criminal aliens help? While Barry O hasn't passed this proposal as yet, he has been quoted befofe several Latino groups that he's working on it and will pass legislation when next elected. A promise to the Latino community or just another campaign promise?
Will the gay community support Barry O? Will a number of Americans support him after he destroys the debt rating? Will increasing credit rates help him get reelected? Or, how about those JOBS he campaigned on during his last election? Where are they today?
Why, where is all of the money invested with the car companies? Will the tax payer see any return of investment here?
It should be interesting, and I can't wait to continue to read the funny comments from your Gang of Progressives.
Jolly So the Republicans constituents want the country to go into a Great Depression? Because cutting 1 trillion dollar or more to balance the budget, will kill the economic recovery, and send this nation into a Great Depression.
Stupid is as stupid does. Republicans must be stupid then, or just too greedy to fix the mess.
All you have to do is name the things which caused the deficit, and see who passed them and you will see who's fault this is. Bush's wars, which Obama is trying to end without completely destroying the region, Medicare part D, which doesn't allow negotiations for lower drug cost, passing tax cuts, which Democrats were forced to pass or no tax cuts for the middle class, and finally Free Trade and zero tariffs, which caused the whole Recession. So most of the deficits are from Republican policy.
Bye libs, the great society is coming to an end. We can't afford you anymore.
But we certainly can afford $700 billion a year for military spending, right? And $30 to $60 billion a year for agriculture, timber, and oil subsidies, right? Sure wouldn't want to end THAT form of socialism, would we.
This whole debate is nonsensical on its face. No one seems willing either to understand that with government spending at 25 to 30% of GDP, any substantial withdrawal will cause significant economic pain, nor does anyone seem willing to begin to deal with it in a way that will actually restore fiscal sanity and put us on a path toward genuine free-market capitalism as opposed to the centrally-planned catastrophe we have today.
Instead, what we have is a bunch of ill-informed, under-educated, over-propagandized minions running around shrieking about "liberals." This is why we are circling the drain.
JamesDouglasMorrison needs to venture outside his bunker and see what "real" people are talking about, come out and play Jimmie the sunshine will do you good.
You had a good argument with the exception of the word "lib". You know what I'm tired of??? Subsidies in form of tax loopholes for the wealthy, that makes entitlements look small in comparison; a war machine that saps the country of all the money that should go to infrastructure, Wall Street, banks that needed propping up by the Repubs because they were given free reign under Reagan and Bush. You know what I'm tired of...when the Repubs get in power, they tear at the fabric of society and give themselves steak while the rest of us eat oatmeal. Stop with the "lib" comments...you guys are the worst of the radical right that the world has witnessed. You destroyed this economy and now you want it back to suck out the rest. Haven't you had enough of your loopholes and deregulation.
Never underestimate the stupidity, ignorance, and hypocrisy of the GOP!
But it pales in comparison to the misplaced loyalty to a talking head like the current President and his slaves to his failed policies.
The Democrats have perfected the 3-step approach to legislation & governance over the past 30 years: concede, capitulate, and fail.
The spineless fool in the White House and the twin idiots in the House and Senate party leadership positions have shown clear mastery in giving away every legislative point to their opponents and STILL handing them a massive club with which to beat the Democrats over the head. It is almost as if the Democratic Party actually wants to serve the Republican agenda while serving as a media foil for them.
Demoncrats expect to win Larger War? Ah, what war is that? The war over who is the most financially incompetent and inept? They've already won that war without even a battle being held... The War against unemployment,,I think not, since unemployment has steadily risen under the Demoncrat flag...The war of enlisting the most Non-producers,,I'll give them that one as it goes along with being a Demoncrat...The war of continuing to enlist the niave, uneducated, poor financial planners, and the lazy...yeah I'll give them that one..for anyone who actually believes their propaganda can't be any less...The war to garner the Most Lobbyists and Special Interest Groups and Unions members...Yeah I'll give them that one since with anything Demoncrat just follow the money trail and the truth shall set you free......... So since the hard working taxpayers outnumber the typical Demoncrat voter by a 6 to 1 margin, I wonder what war it is they expect to win?
Eddie....that last sentence is going to get you in the firing line of the gang of 14. Get ready for the barrage!
JollyOldSoul1
I ignored all of them as they ignored me at Feisty's ordering. - see below. Such a bunch of weak, small minded people. Doing this makes for a real clean screen and a lot less BS to sort through.
#10.37 - Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:00 PM EDT
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
Time to initiate the ignore author option gang!
Let the overly sensitive attention whore find someone else to harass! .........
Adios Reb! It's been fun! ;o)
I enjoy the humor they exude, specially in the confidence area. But I know most of them live in comfortable rural areas probably burbsville. They should come down to my neighborhood and see what the liberal agenda has done to the inner cities! As I said before navybouy would get his azz shot and the Detroit police will show up 2 hours later and take his happy azz to Detroit receiving. A hospital experience every liberal should enjoy.
ronindiana:
Come on, you people that just say crap without having a clue what you are talking about make me sick. That is how America continues to get dumber. If it is in print, or in the media then they think it is fact. BOB DYLAN had nothint to do with the song Stuck in the Middle With You. I am not a fan of that song by the way, however, it was written by Gerry Rafferty. Dont just say crap if you dont know what you are talking about. This applies to politics as well. You have no credibility.
So Navy, since you love to cite Thinkprogress and the rantings from the far crazy radical left, you must be furious with its sponsor Soros over his intentional dodge of Dodd=Frank bill? He wants to keep the investment of his personal $24 billion from any regulatory oversight or transparency that was intended by hedge funds. Havent heard a squeak from you guys from you patron saint. Where is the outrage?
lol
I've noticed it makes right-wingers crazy to think one of their Gods, that is, someone of the billionaire class, favors the Democratic Party over Republican. Why else do they talk so much about George Soros? Especially when we know the Koch Brothers have their fists on so many behind the scenes levers, fighting the science on global warming and working to repeal environmental laws.
Would McCarthy be yelling communist now or socialist? Today's United States of Corporate America would get him voted out.
mentally disabled, nasty, etc. quoting pravda, errrrr, think progress daily. Hilarious!
Shhhhhhh Kirk! they will ignore your comments. Your inconsequential!
I know I keep waiting for even a small peep. My guess is that their stipends for posting on here and citing his moveon web sites would be eliminated if they even reply. Even John A cant seem to muster a defense on this one.
I think you've exposed them Kirk, I find it disrespectful to misrepresent "yourself" as a Disabled Retired Navy Veteran. I too think that he and Fiesty are on the payroll of some group of progressives. They will never answer a question. Husky asked Navy what rank he held and what % disabled he is, no response.
Grandpajohn,
I often question the validity of those people who go out of their way to promote their military service. Many of us have served, with 'Hearts' to show for it, or medals with a 'V' to distinguish valor from chair-sitting. But what need does one have to promote service?
I happen to have a VA disability, and my wife has one too. Now I will go out of my way to fight to keep benefits for those who have earned them, but I have no respect for those who may be using stolen valor.
When I read from some NewsVine articles, I also see several posts from individuals who have similar verbage as their writing styles on FR, and they associate handles with similar names. Could we have individuals with more than one 'handle'?