I agree -- tell that to the locals at Boeing in SC. When is Obama going to finally get with the program?

Yes tell that to the 4000 FAA workers that the Democrats in the Senate are Holding Hostage because they wont pass the Bill the the Republicans in the house of Sent them. Yea. Democrat Terrorist keeping Federal workers out of work because republicans dont think a person should be FORCED to join a Union...

Harry Reid and the Democrats in the Senate should be Ashamed of themselves..

Tell that to the 4,000 FAA workers.

___________________________________

Yeah. Why is Harry Reid sending the Senate on a five-week vacation without dealing with the FAA bill currently stuck in the Senate??

Petty partisan politics??

Those pomegranate trees he so loves??

If my math is correct (I'm using an abacus here), then 90.8% of the population is employed.

The only people I see unemployed are the unskilled that have no marketable job skills.

FR: The debt is driven partly by the spending that was done in 2009 and 2010 to try to lift the economy out of the recession

Well, I belive this is a first for First Read. Acknowledging that the failed stimulus is the reason the debt has skyrocketed. Good for you guys. Welcome to the party!

Damn these are some tough times for the libbie, government is the answer too, crowd.

The economy has lost 2.5 million jobs since the Hope and Change came. Yet rather than address the issue, super majority in hand he "pivoted" to health care.

Now he has no bullet in the clip. Stimulus gone. Cash for clunkers, caulking, gone.

So what is he doing? Well we got the EPA shutting down trucking and 1/2 the coal industry. We got the NLRB all up in Boeing's business, and of course we have Obamacare routing small and medium sized businesses.

Oh and gang, what happens when those one year waivers are up? The plans they effect will still not meet the requirements, so I guess those employers have some [more] tough decisions.

Malaise? I long for malaise. This is far, far worse.

And really, he said he would end the wars. That would save butt loads of money. So what is his problem? He is the commander in chief, right?

Malaise? I long for malaise. This is far, far worse.]

WAH! Still haven't filled out those loose boxers, I see...dick-less AND ball-less...must suck to be you.

Hey Schpanky...on a break? Just how much computer time spent here have you charged to your "clients"? Oh, never mind...it is always nice to see you have "an opinion", though.

So...you post anything of worth today, or just out for a friendly game of denigrating women and disabled veterans? Nope...you didn't...just the same old same old from you, right Schpanky?

Hey, you never did answer those questions posted to you yesterday...what gives? Who would think you'd give up a chance to grandstand...

steveiam - actually the democrats have been holding the funding for the FAA hostage ever since 2007. Seems that they just can't agree to fund it. Just think they have been in control of both houses since then and only recently lost control of the house in 2011.

And they want to call the right the party of NO. Bet they have plenty of excuses though! LMAO!

Easy there spanky, Obama is celebrating the big 50! All those birthday parties across the nation to raise funding for his re-election. I do so wish to wish him happy birthday and I am glad that his present from the markets is so apropos to his leadership. The US markets have dropped 300 + points so far.

Yes indeedy, happy birthday mr president.

Feisty - The House voted for a temporary extension before leaving, and the Senate voted for the full bill in February. The hangup is that Senator Reid wwill not allow the bil lto pass in any form without union card checks which do not now exist, but were recommended by the Obama labor dept.), and fat subsidies (up to $3,700.00 per ticket) for little used aitports (one of which is in his district).

Blaming the victims again?

Unemployment, when adjusted to account for under-employed as well as those who have literally dropped ouot of the job market after long terms of failure to find work, is closer to 20%. And the people who are without work are not entirely the "bottom feeders" with "no real skills." Nope, they include the one-time factory hands who built cars, made refrigerators, worked on factory equiment, and the like.

They include many thousands who worked in banking, investment, architecture, materials handling and logistics, and related fields. They include many thousands who were teachers, policemen, and firemen.

The short-sightedness of limiting or reducing stimulus programs, or diverting funds for them to temporarily balance budgets, as many states and municipalities did, has been documented and discussed by economists. And now the day of reckoning has arrived with the Dow down nearly 500 points minutes before the closing bell. It was forecast by Nobel laureate economist Joseph E. Stiglitz. It's found on page 310 in the "Afterword" for the paperback edition of his 2010 book, Freefall: America, Free Markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy:

"Perhaps, in a few months, as financial markets see Washington gridlock in action - or as the United States pursues mindless deficit reductions that lead to a weakening economy - financial markets will wake up to these looming problems."

That was written around May or June of 2010

Oh, and about the FAA deadlock - it is a falsehood to claim that the Democrats in the Senate have held up a bill from the House. It contained numerous provisions that were unreasonable - including exemtions in the bill for funding FAA operations in some states ... like Nevada and California. The bill was DOA before it even came to a House vote - just another example of "crisis capitalism" as practiced by cynical conservatives.

Boehner owns the problem.

John A. - The bill could have been voted on in 2007, 2008, 2009 or 2010, when the democrats had full control of both houses. As far as the subsidies for these small airports - $3,700.00 per ticket - really? would you vote for that? And as for the 'card check' provision - it wasn't there to begin with, so why insist on it now (union special interests). Does EVERYTHING have to be a 'blame game'. THINK - if you are a taxpayer, is this how you want your money spent?

This is delicious!

The Tea Party said let us have our way with everything and the economy tanked!

The Republicans even went so far as to tell the President he could not hire a permanent Consumer Advocate to replace Elizabeth Warren while they were on recess, because technically they were going be in session based on some mumbo jumbo new rule they made up to piss on the President.

In other words, President Obama will not be able make recess appointments!

This is outrageous!!!

Main stream media...Where are you while Rome burns?????

Jonathan, there isn't a card check provision, it is an amendment by Rep. Mica (R-FL) to count non-votes as 'no' votes when the employees are trying to organize a union. (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/08/04/287600/mica-elections-faa/)

How soon you also forget about the Republican/TP Inc. Senators constantly invoking the cloture rule and preventing any legislation from moving through the Senate in 2009 and 20010, or the fact that Bush suddenly found his veto pen in 2007 and 2008. But you see, Jonathan, we did not forget, and we will not forget in 2012.



Once agan - is this a bill to provide for the continuation of the FAA and related construction projects, or is this a union organising bill? Why not vote to extend as is? The House did vote the measure as temporary, in order to prevent the disruption until the recess was over - Senator Reid said no.

First off, the debt ceiling debate is NOT over. Second, creation of jobs is not looking at the debt from another angle, it is looking at the debt from the CORRECT angle.

Now that McConnell has openly admitted to hostage taking, we can all be honest. The Scumbaggers WANT the economy to tank, and as such are the victors. When everyone admits to this fact, we might be able to have an honest discussion.

Regarding the FAA, the truth is Republicans want 1) to bust the union, and 2) to close airports in Democratic districts. That's all it is, and in the meantime we are losing a large amount of revenue as well as jobs.

If you would take the time to read the article at the link provided, you would find out it was the Republican/TP Inc. party that took a funding bill and made it into a union organizing bill. Senator Reid said no to the bill as encumbered with the amendment by Rep. Mica, not to a clean bill.

Try and spin it all you want, it is not Senator Reid who is causing the problem.

Mathew - we agree to disagree - Thank You for stating your point without making it personal.

The only people I see unemployed are the unskilled that have no marketable job skills.

Wow, just wow -- Chris, I don't know what you do for a living, but if you lost your job, you would be the one exception for any empathy. I'm not religious so don't wish anything nice for you in this lifetime.

And I'll agree to disagree on opinion, but not facts. The facts are the facts. You can't have your own facts Matthew, even if you don't make ad hominem attacks (which is the minimum of civility).

Sorry Matthew in TX, I was not refrring to you. It saved before I could change it -- My bad.

matti and JohnA - the democrats have kicked the funding issue down the road since 2007 on the FAA, now you want to blame the GOP? Whatever trips your trigger son! Looks like we can put you into the same class as many other FR libs. that of comic relief!

Aw, thanks for the kind words there, Patriot! Right back atcha, buddy!

Like I said, the only people I see unemployed are the unskilled that have no marketable job skills. I honestly don't know anyone who doesn't have a job. I stand by my earlier statement.

Chris...I don't think you're very far off the mark regarding the unemployed...and I don't say this intending to be mean in any way towards those who want to work but cannot get hired.

I've watched the job markets for the last 25 years beginning with my first computer install in 1980. I began wondering what would happen to our labor pool if they did not re-train for the future. We seemed to coast along for about 20 years...then I started seeing the signs of what I feared -- and here we are.

I think some have skills but they are no longer marketable.

I think some are unskilled and are unable to fly by the seat of their pants by working at the burger joint like they used to.

In either case...WE are responsible for our success and failure. If one thing no longer works WE better get busy and find something else that does. At this very moment my husband (63, wants to work another 5 years) is watching his consulting in one area of geomatics slow down so he is retraining in another area. If he can do this at his age....I hardly have sympathy for those who won't do the same.

I personally know only a couple of people who cannot find jobs. They are newly (6 mos) unemployed. They are professionals (PE, nurse, teacher) and WILL find something...it's just taking lots longer to secure a job than it used to.

Thank you, VermontGirl. We've disagreed in the past, but it's nice to know that there is someone else out there who understands that we live in the real world.

I know the job market isn't pretty, but there are jobs out there. My local Sunday paper has a thirty page help wanted section every week. There are jobs out there for those willing and able to get them. Remember, employment isn't a right, it's something you have to go out and earn.

My language at times might seem harsh and uncaring, but sometimes people need that slap in the face to get them motivated. I encourage people to expand their horizons. The ability to learn and adapt is a wonderful human trait. It's the only way we will continue to grow as a nation.

"Under the Congressional Budget Office’s most plausible scenario, publicly held federal debt will increase from about 70 percent of GDP this year to more than 100 percent of GDP by 2021"

In Obama's 2012 Budget, he projects that the National Debt will be $15.476 Trillion for 2011, while economists currently expect the GDP to be about $14.9 Trillion for this year.

That's already going to be a Debt Ration of 104% of GDP for this year. Greece has riots because their Debt ratio is 111% of their GDP.

Why does the media 'conveniently' ignore the $4.5 Trillion that the government owes the Social Security and Medicare Trust Funds when calculating the Debt Ratio - Unless of course the government doesn't plan on paying all of those 'borrowings' back. I wonder what our seniors think about that?

Chris, you still offer no links to credible sources to back up your lie.

Many of the unemployed are educated, experienced workers, albeit older--in their 40s and 50s who are screwed because they aren't close to collecting Social Security or Medicare, and their retirement was wiped out along with loses in 401ks and home values. Also, when it is an "employer market" the unemployed have no leverage, so employers are not offering paid relocation, training, nothing. Moving on (you are wasting BTUs as well as being offensive)...

There are no moderates in the Republican Party anymore. The Teabag anarchists in the House, which is only one-third of the government, are puppets of the Big Oil rich (Koch brothers, Dick Armey, Bush/Rove types). These Teabagger puppets have successfully used domestic terrorism (of pledges and primary contests from the far-right) against the scummy business-owner traditionalists in the Republican Party – who currently benefit from the Bush tax cuts and tax code write-offs, who don't want regulation that reduces their profits such as the EPA, FDA, etc. -- forcing a united Scumbagger Party.

The majority of the nation wants the country to come together. Teabaggers have no interest in the country coming together. Douche-bags liars like Rush Limbaugh who claim progressives want to destroy our current system and replace it with socialism have it arse-backward. The Teabag anarchists want to destroy our constitutional democracy and replace it with a one-party theocratic plutocracy. Though scummy business owners dislike instability and many dislike religious fundamentalism as well, they do like the one-party plutocracy part of the Teabagger goals.

Though the fight over the debt ceiling exposed the rift between the Teabag crazies who wanted a default versus the traditional scummy business owners who did not want a default (because they knew it would hurt their profits), ultimately the success of hostage-taking terrorism used against the nation emboldens both factions. Therefore the combined Scumbagger Party will now result in further battles and gridlock with terrorist tactics where ever the opportunity presents itself.

The Teabaggers are irrational ideologue's, who don't care about consequences. The rest of the nation suspected this in 2010 when they rejected unqualified extremists like Christine O'Donnell, Sharron Angle, etc. The traditional scummy business owners in GOP should realize this national view won't change in 2012, and in fact the hostage-taking terrorism bears out the 2010 fears about Teabag anarchists.

Those registered Independent and/or who now self-identify as Independent is skewed because many are Republicans who were fed up with the Iraq war, related spending along with TARP, etc. under Bush/Cheney who registered Independent in protest. These were the so-called Independents who elected Teabag anarchists to the House because of the 'R' next to their name (rather than running as Libertarian or more honestly as Anarchists) -- Some voters did not know they were electing anarchists because the true agenda was not revealed during campaigning (e.g., Scott Walker), rather Teabag anarchists used deceit with populist mantras of jobs, JOBS -- Liars!

The majority of Americans who rejected Teabaggers in 2010 will reject them even more in 2012. Those who voted based on the 'R' next to a candidate's name will be more wary, hopefully vetting these candidates more thoroughly. Democrats who did not get out and vote in 2010 will be more motivated in 2012 -- even if unhappy with president Obama, just to make sure the Teabag anarchists cannot take over.

If these radical Teabag terrorists think they can run things their way now, imagine if they really had a majority –Haunting. If the Scumbaggers are in charge with a majority in congress and/or the White House, they will cause more than class warfare; they will cause a civil war.

No problem, True.

As an engineer who has been laid off, I know of many very qualified engineers who have been out of work for a year, or more. You know, software engineers, computer engineers, hardware engineers, mechanical engineers, facility engineers, structural engineers, etc. Yep, they sound like a bunch of lazy, unqualified slackers to me.

Sure, there are plenty of engineering positions out there, but the problem is that they are all for the 'purple squirrel' (look it up, it's an HR term), and nobody qualifies, or they want young kids just out of college that they can pay crap wages to because the kids don't know any better, or they are just glad to have a job. Luckily, I'm a 'purple squirrel' with a specialty that is in demand and will land on my feet. For some of my ex- and soon to be ex-coworkers, they are not so lucky.

So all you righties on here complaining that all of the unemployed just don't want to work, on behalf of all of my unemployed friends and colleagues: shove it up . . . well, let's just say, someplace that doesn't smell so great, and the sun don't shine.

A link to what, Patriot? Do you want me to attach a webcam to my head and give you the link so you can see what I see with my own two eyes?

Let me state this again so that you might comprehend it: THE ONLY PEOPLE I SEE THAT ARE UNEMPLOYED ARE PEOPLE WITH NO MARKETABLE JOB SKILLS. (Did you not notice the emphasis on the word "I" above? I did that for you, buddy!)

Some people will have to accept the fact that they may have to settle for less money in order to secure employment. I did it myself three years ago. I took a position that paid less than what I was making because it had the potential for better opportunities and more money in the long run and it paid off. I'm making more money now than I ever would have had I stayed at more former position.

Again, I might come off as sounding a little harsh and uncaring, but sometimes people need to be told harsh and unpleasant things in order to grow and evolve.

Chris, I completely agree, sometimes people have to be told harsh, and unpleasant things so they can grow and evolve.

Chris, you have been hoodwinked by people that you think are better than you, simply because they have more money than you have. From your posts, you seem to be allowing them to do your thinking for you, and then you come on here and try to convince others to buy into this destructive philosophy. You seem to be the type of person who sees a brown dog, and assumes all dogs are brown. When presented with indisputable facts that challenge your preconceived notions, in your posts you deny them or refuse to acknowledge them.

Here are some questions for you: How do you know that all of the people you see unemployed do not have marketable? How many people that you know are unemployed have you seen? Did you ask them what their skills were or did you make an assumption? What about all of the engineers that I know who have very marketable skills, why did you ignore those facts?

Chris, most of the wealthy do not have your best interests in mind. They do not care if you make a living wage, or if you are healthy. They do not care if you can feed your family, or not. All that they care about is acquiring more money for themselves off of your labor. They only care about how much work they can get out of you before you keel over dead. They only care about how much the work they do get out of you will profit them and how little they can pay you and still keep you willing to work.

Why did the richest 1% (those who pay taxes at the capital gains rate or avoid taxes through legal and illegal loopholes) escape having to share in the efforts to reduce the deficit? Because they are rich enough to have bought off the politicians who make the budget deals, yes, on both sides, but more so on the Republican/TP Inc. party side. Who was it that was handing out tobacco lobby money on the floor of the House of Representatives? Who has been saying that raising revenue is not an option? Who insisted, and continue to insist that the programs that help the poor and middle class are the only things that should be cut? Who is fighting regulations designed to enforce rules that would have prevented this recession we are currently experiencing? These are the people who are protecting the richest people in this country. Not you, not me, but the richest 1%.

I am going to repeat a statistic I have posted before:

From 1970 to 2000, the average rise in compensation (adjusted for inflation, etc.) for all income earners was $0.05/hr over the entire 30 years. Over the same 30 years, the average rise in compensation for the top 1% of those same income earners was $646.00/hour . . . every single year . . . the equivalent of $19,380.00 per hour more than in 1970. And it has only gotten worse under the Bush tax cuts.

Do you read, Chris? Here are three books for you to read:

'Perfectly Legal' by David Cay Johnston

'The Wrecking Crew' by Thomas Frank

'The Shock Doctrine' by Naomi Klein

"The Return of Depression Economics" by Paul Krugman

'The Predator State' by James K. Galbraith

'Wealth and Democracy' by Kevin Phillips

'The New American Economy' by Bruce Bartlett

If you are intellectually honest, you will read these books and make up your own mind. I do not care if you agree with them, or not, just that you at least try expanding your horizons, grow and evolve your thinking.

So from whom should the government take money from to "create" jobs Torpedo? You? Me? Who?

And why not just end all the wars so no one has to pay? Too easy? As for your percentage question - the top 1% earns 22% of all income, but pays 39.9% of all taxes. So what is this about burden?

Sorry bro - we all have a huge stake in Wall street. Everyone has a 401k.

Sophists? Really? funny.

So Torpedo, what does Obama/Reid/Pelosi have to offer? They are in control of the wars [Obama], they have set tax policy for much of the last 10 yeas, and they all seem to pal around with wall street folk. Just ask Bryan, he now knows about Geitner, and his soon to be replacement, Corizine.

Why Corizine Torpedo? Cause Obama loves him some Wall Street, that's why.

[So from whom should the government take money from to "create" jobs Torpedo? You? Me? Who?]

Still answering questions with questions, right Schpanky? Ohhh I get it...that way you don't have to actually be on the record for anything, AND at the same time trying to fool everyone into thinking that you actually know WTF you are talking about...

...remember the old saying from yesterday about your "opinions" and @!$%#s? You're nothing but one big "opinion", right Schpanky?

So mikey - it appears that you have lost the ability to think or you are not playing with a full deck. What better way to show someone like you your ignorance?

My past instructors always asked questions so i would think for myself, find the answers and give feedback to the instructor. Sorry to see that your educators failed so in your education. Looks like there is no fool like a mickey, ny fool! LMAO!

Ok Torpedo - I went and looked it up.

1. One skilled in devious argument; 2. a scholar or thinker.

So, the tea party fits this definition how exactly? And how would it apply to what the Obama crew said about 1. Shovel ready jobs; 2. the effect of the stimulus on the unemployment rate, or 3. he could not guarantee that social security checks would go out absent a raise in the debt ceiling?

Now I think it applys to all politicians, but I view the actual 60 House freshmen tea partiers to be very un-politician like.

I.e. - what have they said that applies to your point?

Torpedo - where did you get the $40 Trillion private debt number? Actually, private debt is falling, as individuals continue to pay down debt, rather than spend (and borrow) more money. As to the wars that we are fighting, the President vowed to end 2 of them by now, and instead is leading (from behind) yet a third war. New regulations of the financial sector were passed under the last congress, and are in effect (the market is down today by 400 points). You tell me who benefits from the uncertainty caused by the lack of leadership in the White House. We need to end the Obama nightmare in 2012. He is looking more like Jimmy Carter every day.

Spankster:

"And why not just end all the wars so no one has to pay? Too easy? As for your percentage question - the top 1% earns 22% of all income, but pays 39.9% of all taxes. So what is this about burden?"

Jeez Spanky are you really that ignorant? Are you including FICA, State and Local sales and other REGRESSIVE taxes? Of course you know that the top 2% control of 85% of the ASSETS in the good ol USA. See there I answered your question with some facts.

Pity we are not pleading our cases in court you would be labeled as the Poltroons you and most connies are. Google that one!

I refer to federal income taxes only Torpedo. You know cause all the states are different, like the ones that have no state income taxes at all.

Torpedo - you do understand the difference between income, which is taxable, and assets? Or are you just a straight redistributionist as well? Either way your "facts" are totally irrelevant.

So again Torpedo, why won't he just end the wars?

Or are you in favor of them? That would seem to be a tad inconsistent.

Sooo...Schpanky...nothing of substance as usual? Are you ready to go on the record regarding anything?

Nope...you won't, because you can't, right?

Anything regarding those 4,000 FAA jobs? Or those 70,000 construction jobs? How about the military laying off tens of thousands...nothing? Just as long as you don;t have to step over them, right Schpanky?

Seems you are just a cheap, empty suit, right?

Well Spankster..We do need to pay for those wars so I we need a surtax. Got it now?

[Jeez Spanky are you really that ignorant?]

Torpedo, you hit the nail on the head...but Schpanky do have hisself some "opinion"...

Sorry Torpedo I do not.

The debt is on the books. The costs keep piling up.

Obama could fix that right quick. Yet he chooses not to do anything.

To pay for the wars I recommend we bill those parties who benefited most from them: Cheney, Bush and their army of war profiteers.

How bout' that?

You down with that Spanks?

I mean Cheney did move all his company's chips to Dubai in the end didn't he?

That Cheney,...a patriot's patriot.

I don't know - I just got back, but left on the Dect/stock market in tank thread.

Not so much libbie chatter there. How unexpected.

Don't think the LibsRUs gang like to discuss reality.

Got a late start and went over to First Thoughts thread. No shortage of hysterical cries of Terrorists, Teaorrists, Tealiban, etc over there, dude.

We can always count on Feisty for some hostage/gun to the head talking points, though.

...tick tock, Schpanky...tick tock...

Hey Mickey is that the countdown on Obama's presidency?

Dow is down 467 points at 3:44pm.

Worst.President.Ever.

Malaise, it's what's for dinner.

You know WCA I went back and looked into the older threads today.

Either the libbies have all decided to tone done the demagogary, or these topis, and particular the earlier one on debt, just don't seem to afford them much opportunity.

Oh well tomorrow another day. Best estimate on DOW plunge tomorrow?

Spanky: Oh well tomorrow another day. Best estimate on DOW plunge tomorrow

Well, my guess is that the morning is going to be real ugly. Might settle back a bit in the afternoon, 200-300 more points lost and modest increases Monday.

Unless of course our President takes to the podium for some more speechifying. Then all bets are off.

dow will be inside 10,000 by October maybe sooner

[I don't know...]

Well, you get credit for being right about ONE thing today, huh Schpanky?

[I just got back, but left on the Dect/stock market in tank thread.]

And you were just as big an @!$%# there as you are here, right? Just voiced your "opinion", right?

Yep, I bet you left quite an impression, huh...degrading women and disabled veterans....

[Oh well tomorrow another day. Best estimate on DOW plunge tomorrow?]

So, you think this is cool, huh Schpanky? What will you go on record as saying...that the economy "plunging" is cool? You're quite the man, aren't ya...

Sad...not a solid bone in your spine, huh Schpanky...but that's OK...the world needs ignorants like yourself.

WCO:

Funny, I don't remember pulling your string?

You and Schpanky seem to have quite the bromance going on...what's up with that?

All I hear from you is "Yeah, what Schpanky said!"

I'll go on record as saying nature loves balance.

When a company that's projecting 200Mil in losses over the next fiscal year goes public for 7.5 Billion (LinkedIn!), then it means the market is on 'tilt'. If you couldn't see that, you shouldn't be playing in the stock market. Go play in the bonds market, where the risk is a little bit less.

2 year greek bonds @ 30%. It's a bet that Greece won't default for 2 years!

Or 5 year US notes @ around 2.5%. A bet the US won't default for 5 years.

See, the problem is, the first one is actually not a bad bet. The risk/reward factor is appropriately large and there's almost no chance that inflation will hit 30%/year anywhere in the Eurozone. So the big worry is Greek default. I think Germany will prop them for 2 more years.

The second has become a sucker's bet, and this debt deal proved it. Because the market's have no soul. They don't care WHERE the money goes to, only that the US is spending way too much of it.

Mickey,

The only person on here that isn't adding any value to the discussion is you. Spanky has consistently provided meaningful and relevant discussion to this board. Way to go Spanky!

[Spanky has consistently provided meaningful and relevant discussion to this board.]

Really...well, stick around my friend...if you call denigrating women and disabled veterans "meaningful" and "relevant" discussion, I can't change that.

Grow up Mickey...

Yes, never mind that over 80% of that debt can be directly attributed to policies by and, was therefore created by Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2. Right Rob? I mean, we had no debt and no deficits before January 20th, 2009. Right, Rob?

You're a blind idiot, who has been hoodwinked, or paid to post this lie by the Republican/TP Inc. party.

Rob - Good post. It is obvious that spending our way to prosperity has been given a chance - and it does not work. Ignore the name calling from Mathew -I have learned that he just cannot avoid doing that (I would be cranky too if I felt compelled to defend the President). 2012 is the time to end this administration and try to bring back an America less dependent on government.

Yes, Rob, good post of lies. Way to go. Woo hoo, let's keep repeating those lies. Good, boy. Lay down. Roll over. Good boy.

Rob,

Yes John Boehner has done a terrific job tanking the Dow for the past week. Thanks for pointing that out.

Rob - Right on the money - we were told that the 'deal' on the debt ceiling would prevent this very thing from happening. At least they got it done in time for the Birthday bash!! Bryan E. - think, man - I know you love the President, but how much more can we take?

I don't know. Let's see what they hold hostage next time before we answer that question Jonathan.

Hey Bryan, what is Geinter doing about that stock market thing.

As you know he has a little experience with Wall Street.

Oh and while you are here, how you liking Corzine as Geitner's replacement. I bet you can "guess" where Corzine used to work.

Why does Obama love him so much Goldman?

John A. - Sorry - I though you were a reasonable person. You need to think about your use of provacative terms, and learn to be more civil in your discourse. Political discussions lead to passions, but let's remeber what reckless words led to with the attempt on Congresswoman Gifford's life. We need to stop spending the people's money so recklessly. That means that the days of everyone being promised everything in return for for votes needs to end. We simply cannot afford thecurrent level of spending, and that will upset everyone who has come to depend on the government (which pretty much means everyone).

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/08/03/286995/mcconnell-admits-to-taking-debt-ceiling-hostage-its-worth-ransoming/

http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/08/04/287536/mitch-mcconnell-on-bluffing-and-hostage-taking/

Now who was using provacative terms, Jonathan?

I wasn't adressing Senator McConnell - I was adressing you. So - the answer is - you.

Schpanky,

Still asking the questions, but evading any answers...sweet gig you got going, Bruh...

Since John A. was not even in this thread and then you just said you were addressing me when you were clearly trying to call out John A. for pointing out what the leader of your side is saying, I don't think you know who you are addressing. Your posts have only confirmed you as a very confused individual who doesn't have a clue about what you are trying to talk about.

On last thing: you see, Jonathan, I'm not as polite as John A., so I have no problem calling you out as the self-righteous a$$hole that you have proven yourself to be. Hey, if I'm going to be accused of it anyway, I might as well do it.

The manufacturing jobs are never going to come back in the numbers that will make a difference. What we need are positions, companies, and entreprenuers who are free from the stifling interference of the federal government, who can invent the next economy. America has done this before (MANY times), and we can do it again. The difference this time is the impedement to progress that the government has become. We are like a sail boat in a race with the anchor firmly attached to the bottom of the sea.

"Economists used to speak of the Japanese lost decade"

Ya clueless moonbat, Japan lost a decade in its economy, because of the same stupid statist Keynesian stimulus that Obama has been trying...

But blame the GOP, if it makes you feel better.

yellowdog - surprised to hear you want to blame the GOP on the stock market slide. GET A GRIP BOY, its a global slowdown. China is slowing, India is fighting inflation and the europeans are failing to contain their soveriegn debt issues.

If I knew your wife I would tell her to slap your face hard! You are better than what you say in your post #8.

Look on the bright side if the US looses its AAA rating the markets have already taken it into account.

Well fellas it seems as if you won the discussion with such well thought out responses. We will try your way, trillions in cuts, no taxes and we will see how it affects the deficit. We will see how much extra hiring we get with this contraction in services and money. We will see how much further we go if the bond ratings fall, won't we? Look at the bright side though, as long as you guys feel better, even though the whole country is affected negatively; doesn't matter cause you guys won the discussion.

Blame the recession that started under Bush on Obama if it makes you feel better. Hold the GOP harmless if you wish.

yellowdog - I know you are an obama man and you know I am not. So what?

If you followed many of my past posts, you know that I usually always asked the question "of where were the democrats?", when the libs ranted on about the right. Both the left and the right have been complicit and we have as individuals are also to share the blame.

A few months back I referred you to a charlie rose segment on the trials that big city mayors faced because they were at the end of the funding line and had to make hard choices on serving the public and the city employess. It seems that we have failed to ask the question of our politicians on exactly what the long term costs are on the programs we seem to want.

Please don't become like many FR libs and give up and use blame to stand still. You have shown the ability to think rationally in the past and you do seem to want to seek out solutions moving forward.

Yellowdog - I think that it is ptretty clear that spending our way out of this is NOT the answer. In 2012, it is time to allow President Obama to retrurn to Chicago. As a fiscal concervative, I recognise the importance of the so-called 'entitlement' programs, but it is clear that they need some serious reform, so that their financial existence is not thtreatened (as it is now). We also need to really think about what the role of government needs to be going forward, and to prioritise the spending of our limited resources. As a progressive in social issues, the right wing drives me nuts by dealing in the lives of others on matters of sexual orientation, marriage, abortion, etc. Most of us simply DO NOT CARE about these issues. As an AMERICAN, I urge you and others posting here and elsewhere to begin to express views in a more civil tone. Disagreement in honest discussions doesn't have to necessarily lead to hatred and intolerance.

You kidding?

I completely think spending our way out of this is the answer.

To startups and businesses that do less than 1mil/year in business. Middle-class businesses.

Start forcing banks to pay up any old fella with a decent idea and a business plan. Give him 500K startup and make him budget it for 2 years.

My god, an 800 Billion stimulus bill of that...would fix your economy in the blink of an eye. Capitalism would kill the crappy businesses, but the ones with good ideas would need employees to implement those ideas.

That's 1.6 Million new businesses.

And each paying x amount (a 7(a) loan requires one position created for every 75K in loan)...would fix your beef.

But Obama has a wretched FISCAL policy, and Bernanke a wretched MONETARY policy. And neither of them want to invest in the middle-class.

TARP and The Bailout. Over 1T.

He won't get a third chance at screwing it up. I voted for Obama and I'll say it...

ONE AND DONE!

[MSNBC's Homepage has "Economy sends Markets into a Freefall"

Wrong title....."Obama sends Economy and Markets into a Freefall"

hope and change!

Blame the republicans!!!!!! LOL]

YEAH! What Schpanky said...BWAAAK!!

Associated Press: officials say they expect the Senate to accept a House-passed bill as early as Friday.

So tell me J1 why didn't Harry Reid get of his rear and pass the House bill earlier to get all of these people back to work sooner?

Tell me again how this was a GOP problem? You loons are hysterical.

WCA: Tell me again how this was a GOP problem?

Because the GOP is still playing the hostage game. Insisting on busting unions at all costs. Just ask Senator McConnell.

Darn - there it is "DDB"

Thanks a lot fielden, it's only 1:25 pm.

fieldon - the democrats have kicked the FAA funding down the road since 2007, and I really doubt that they did so just because of union concerns. After all they controlled both houses from 2007 - 2010.

The FAA has gotten along for almost five years on a string of 20 "temporary extensions" because Congress has been unable to work out long-term funding for the agency since 2007

from a news article on msnbc travel news, dated yesterday. Ignore history at your own peril. Remember ignorance can be cured, but stupidity can't.

Job1 - If that is true, it is great news for those affected. It also means that Senator Reid passed the bill that he had all along - what a shamefull way to conduct the people's business.

American---The wealthy played by the rules that THEY Lobbied for! You are correct that both the left and the right bought it hook line and sinker. After all Wall street bankers can afford to send lobbyists to Washington to skew the "rules" in their favor..You and I can't. Did you ever here of CDO's and CDS's before 1992? Do you remember when you could go to your bank or Savings and Loan and get a fixed rate mortgage?

Who doesn't have a fixed rate mortgage?

That'd be mighty stupid.

Well at least we got Geitner in charge. And next will be Corzine. Those dudes really know Goldman's games. It's almost like they are insiders.

torpedo - The 1st amendmnet applies to all, rich or poor. Union or non-union.

Seem to recall that fixed rate mortgages have always been available. I had one for 25 years. When discussions first came out on ARM's I wondered why any one would be foolish enough to have one.

As for CDO's and CDS's I am not a banker versed in the ways of covering my ass on risky financial transactions. Furthermore I am not versed in the ways of derivatives either, but I do understand that they are but another form of spreading risks and that the wall st reform bill probably doesn't address them adequately, if at all.

On thing I do understand very well is that if someone shows up on my doorstep claiming that they are from the government and want to help me, I will politely refer them somewhere else.

In order to create jobs, you must have a product and demand for that product. Returning GI's after WWII had the GI bill and were able to go to school, learn a trade etc. Our Parents and Grandparents became , Doctors Lawyers, machinists and yes small business owners largely because the government financed their education and training. Do you really think "they pulled themselves up by their bootstaps" and did it without the help from their government?

Your first sentance is accurate. Our infrastructure came out intact from WWll andwe as well as canada had a ready made demand in rebuilding europe and asia.

Our rosie riviters learned by "on the job training" just as many returning service men learned as well.

Yes, the GI bill was a boon in giving many servicemen opportunities they may have not had before the war.

I would question the assumption about the small business training part though. That was more likely more of a bootstrap operation than one of governmental aide since the SBA wasn't founded until 1953. Regardless, opportunities were seen and implimented Just as todays entrepreneurs boot strapped themselves up because they had an idea, found private investors and then found the labor with appropriate skills to expand upon it.

american - it was a different America. We knew how to sacrifice and the value of hard work. We knew we could count on ourselves. We didn't have health insurance and didn't need it. Our family doctor would treat us even if we didn't have immediate cash and even if we needed surgery - we could pay as we could, and we did. We didn't need a lawyer to solve every little pissy assed problem. A man's word and handshake was his bond. We were grateful for the men who came back unharmed from the war. We were patriotic and bought war bonds to fund the war - we didn't just invade countries with out a plan to pay for the war. Now, we have unprecedented greed, incredibly wealthy special interest groups that buy and sell our politicians like candy bars. We have lost our morals, ethics, civility, decency, honesty in government. Our teachers in schools can't discipline children and the parents won't - possibly because if they did they'd be up for child abuse. We wouldn't have dared cross our parents much less a teacher. It is indeed a different world and not a better one. We made our own way and didn't expect nor would we have accepted a hand out from the government. Our pride wouldn't let us. It wasn't unusual to work two jobs and to work your way through college without Pell Grants. Men would cross country to find a job if necessary. If people are willing to do the work, there are jobs available. People just don't want to step down from where they were. The gas and oil industries are still hiring, but nobody wants to dirty their delicate little hands.

To be replaced with what Dougie,...Palin?

She doesn't even know where Washington, D.C. IS!

She'd show up in Spokane saying, "Well,....I'm ready for my first day at work as President".

You prove stupidity is persistent. Try doing something which may be completely foreign. Reading an opinion or fact not sanctioned by the DNC.

Will you promise to leave America if Obama is defeated? Romney will win in a landslide. Depending on who you are....Cuba may welcome you.

Unemployment rate in 2007 was 4.6% and rising: http://www.bls.gov/cps/prev_yrs.htm

National Debt was $8.7 trillion in January of 2007: ftp://ftp.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opds012007.pdf

National debt was $9.2 trillion in December of 2007: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/2007/opds122007.pdf

The deficit you quoted did not include the costs of the Iraq and Afghan wars and the deficit inherited by the Obama administration was over $1.2 trillion under the Bush and Republican/TP Inc. party's policies. Everything that the Democrats tried to do to reverse the problem of the Bush tax cuts, regulation defunding, and social programs defunding, was vetoed by President Bush, who had not vetoed anything else in the prior 6 years, except stem cell research funding.

The Dow was indeed that high, fueled by a housing bubble that was made possible by the deregulation of the banks, defunding of the regulatory agencies that were unable to police the illegal activities of the mortgage originators (i.e. liar loans, not FM & FM), and the SEC enforcement defunding that allowed insider trading. Not to mention illegal tax shelters, and very rich people just simply not declaring income or paying their taxes (i.e. the IRS enforcement had been so handcuffed and defunded, they did ot have the resources to audit and catch these people).

In other words, Herman', you do not know what you are talking about, you do not know economic history, nor do you know how cause and effect actually work.

Or you are a paid troll who is too stupid to know that you are arguing for people whose policies you are advocating will only hurt your economic interests.