THIS is “Change you can believe in”????????????????????

72% of American’s say the country is headed in the wrong direction!!!!

THIS is proof positive that Barry is not up to the qualifications required to be the President of the United States of America.

Even the visionary genius that changed how the world communicates, listens to music and uses the Internet, Steve Jobs, told Barry he was unqualified for the job:

“You’re headed for a one-term presidency,” Jobs told Obama in a meeting last year where he asserted that the White House needed to be more friendly toward business, according to the Huffington Post, which obtained a copy of the Walter Isaacson’s forthcoming book, “Steve Jobs.”

Barry is nothing more than a same old, same old, full of sh!t politician who is in over his head and his poll numbers reflect that reality:

From Politico:

Poll: 72% say U.S. headed wrong way
By: MJ Lee
October 21, 2011 06:51 AM EDT

As the country suffers from a generally gloomy outlook, most Americans don’t have confidence that President Barack Obama will be successful in bringing about change needed to improve the economy, according to a new poll Friday.

The majority of those polled in an AP-GfK poll, 72 percent, said that they believe the country is generally headed in the wrong direction, while 24 percent said it is headed in the right direction.

Specifically on the economy, 81 percent described it as poor, while just 12 percent said the state of the economy was good.

Four out of 10 people said they approve of how Obama is handling the economy, while 60 percent said they disapprove. Similarly, 40 percent said they approve of how the president is handling unemployment, while 59 percent said they disapprove.

Only 43 percent said they feel confident that the president will be successful in bringing about change needed to improve the economy, with the majority, 56 percent, saying they did not feel confident that Obama will be able to make the economy better.

DO "NOT HIRE A SINGLE PERSON" says conservative activist Melissa Brookstone in a letter to Tea Party Nation members.

Brookstone offers a pledge for Tea Party Business owners: "I, an American small business owner......hereby resolve that I will not hire a single person until this war against business and my country is stopped".

Tea Party leaders are now openly lobbying business owners with the goal of stopping or 'protesting' President Obama, whose American Jobs Act has been assessed to create 1.9 million jobs, raise the GDP 2 points and bring unemployment down.

So they've finally made it official. We knew they weren't hiring and wanted the US economy in the tank. Desperate, losing ground and showing cards sooner than they expected.


http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/10/20/348168/tea-party-group-businesses-hurt-obama/

The Mark of Obama

October 20, 2011

By Bruce Lindner thru AlterNet

Dear Ann Coulter:

Two years ago, during a book tour dedicated to tearing apart Barack Obama’s first year in office, you were asked what you thought of president Obama’s ability to conduct the Global War on Terror. You said; “Is there anything lower than an F? Right now, we’re still living off the successes of Bush’s War on Terrorism, but that’s coming to an end. Every place Obama goes, he’s doing exactly the wrong thing. It’s like he’s taking a gasoline can, and leaving little puddles of gasoline wherever he goes.”

So now that Muammar Qaddafi, Anwar al Awlaki, Samir Khan and Osama bin Laden are all dead, I was wondering if you’ll be writing an updated article on how Obama’s conducted the Global War on Terror. Granted, Mr. Obama’s record doesn’t hold a candle to Mr. Bush’s of course, because as everyone knows, all Obama did was finish the job Bush began, right? Riiiiight.

But still; less than one year ago, before Ali, Mubarak and Qaddafi were toppled, you and other right-wing screeches were all saying Barack Obama was “in over his head,” and was a sympathizer of Muslim extremism, because after all — he’s a secret Muslim himself.

And your followers actually believed you.

So now that freedom has come to Tunisia, Egypt and now Libya, and even Syria is showing signs of unraveling, is it time to admit that the way president Obama conducted his war on terror is more effective than how Bush waged his?

Bush tried to build a “coalition” based on fabricated information, and charged into Iraq, which had ZERO connection to terrorism, without so much as a plan. And even now, almost nine years later, Iraq is still a bloody mess.

Compare that to how president Obama handled the Arab Spring uprisings in North Africa. He stood shoulder-to-shoulder with the rebels, and in the case of Libya, encouraged the French and Brits to take the lead under the banner of NATO, rather than plastering an American face on everything. And now, one of the last major state sponsors of terrorism in the world is dead.

Iraq: Over $1 trillion spent and 4,430 American lives lost, 50,000 more devastated with massive injuries, all to remove Saddam Hussein; a tin-pot dictator who didn’t support terrorism — and sparking a civil war that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians and resulted in Iraq becoming an ally of Iran, rather than the bulwark to Ahmadinejad’s ambitions that it once was.

And today Iraqis wipe the dust from their shoes with American flags in the streets of Baghdad.

Libya: Just under $1 billion spent, not a single American U.S. serviceman lost to remove Muammar Qaddafi; the man who was one of Iran’s allies, who armed dozens of terrorist groups, who personally gave the order to bomb Pan Am flight 103 taking 270 innocent lives, and who even cooperated with Edi Amin in hijacking an Israeli airliner filled with 260 civilians.

And today Libyans wave American flags in the streets of Tripoli.

Muammar Qaddafi and Osama bin Laden killed more Americans than any other terrorist backers in history. Before 9/11, Qaddafi was #1, only to be outdone by Osama bin Laden, whom President Obama hunted to extinction.

Now they’re both dead. And Barack Hussein Obama, the Muslim president who pals around with terrorists has made America — AND THE WORLD — a safer place.

So, what say you, Ann? Will you be writing that follow-up anytime soon? You and your sycophantic friends may grade the president’s foreign policy with an F, but the rest of the world is giving him an A++.

cc: Sarah Palin, Karl Rove, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, et al.

Now to the cc, I would add the names of these stalwart patriots in Congress:

Marco Rubio “Credit goes to France and Gt. Britain”

Lindsey Graham: “He should have gone in sooner, we need to get in on the ground, help rebuild their infrastructure, there’s a lot of money to be made”, but don’t do anything for the US??.

John McCain: Couldn’t bring himself to congratulate his own President, as he praised the allies, yet later had to walk some of it back when called on it, then in a statement said congratulations to President Obama.

Petty minds find it impossible to see the big picture. To them it is all about the Party, not country.

As Andrew Sullivan said yesterday, “If the President was a Republican, he’d now be on Mt. Rushmore”.

Well, Now ABC News is on to the Fisker Automotive debacle:

From ABC News:

Car Company Gets U.S. Loan, Builds Cars In Finland

Standing in a shuttered General Motors plant in Wilmington, Del., Vice President Biden proclaimed that a half-billion-dollar Department of Energy loan would transform the idled site into a production line for electric cars.

"Folks, we're making a bet," Biden said on Oct. 27, 2009. "We're making a bet on the future, we're making a bet on the American people, we're making a bet on the market, we're making a bet on innovation

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/car-company-us-loan-builds-cars-finland/story?id=14770875&page=3

Wonder if Biden would have made that bet with his own money?

Fisker is a company with investors like Al gore and John Doerr (Huge Obama contributor)

The Karma is almost two years late to it’s initial scheduled introduction and is fraught with countless technical issues. The Nina doesn’t exist other than on paper.

$30 Billion in the DOE loan program sure would have hired a lot of teachers, cops and firefighters, eh?

John Lennon was a prophet: Instant Karma's gonna get you,Gonna knock you off your feet

Lets see: If I make 2 million, An increase of one-half of one percent tax on that 2^nd one million = $5,000. Gosh- think I could survive on 5K less making what I’d be making? Wow, it’d be pretty rough going.

Oh, and if you remove border patrol staff, more illegals will come in. If you set up less radar speed locations, people’s speed will increase over all in that stretch of road. If you lessen drug interdiction staff, more drugs will make it into the country.

So- was Biden right, do you think, when he said hiring less police would result in more crime?

Think hard, now, righties. It’s not a trick question.

On another matter: I have to admit- it was refreshing to hear Hannity last night, completely avoid the Kaddafi thing, so he could let Cain rattle on about oranges and apples or some nonsensical something-or other.

Gotta run now, and make room for all the Smiffs, Me Firsts, No Jo’s, Spankies, et.al. so they can get on here and explain why keeping 400,000 people out of work is a GOOD thing right now. I’m sure they will not disappoint.

When the extreme right wing crushed the moderates of the Republican Party in California back in the early 90's, they destroyed my political home. They used every rotten trick and every dirty tactic imaginable to infect my home with hatred, intolerance, and hypocrisy. Their virulent dogma has now spread across the nation.

Trying to describe the twisted minds of the lunatics who now control the G.O.P. is almost impossible. Imagine a seething tangle of snakes with rabies, a destruction derby on unicycles, asylum inmates overdosed on LSD. These people are completely irrational. THEY are the RINO's. Truly, they are Republican In Name Only.

This malodorous RINO cloud of bile and insanity has a silver lining. True conservatives and true Republicans no longer have a home. I know that from experience. You see, the Party of Lincoln actually had - note the past tense - something of a liberal mindset. That is to say, they valued education, they valued freedom, they cherished personal rights. Only a moment's reflection shows RINO's are fearful of the educated, afraid of freedom, and only too willing to abridge personal rights.

Sadly, Democrats don't offer a home with the comfort of genuinely conservative ideals. There is an unmistakable impression of underlying waste, that the production of wealth is a given, and that wishing is a suitable substitute for blood, sweat, and tears.

There is a man who can meet the needs and beliefs of homeless Republicans and conservatives - the real ones. That man is President Obama. The RINO's with their irrational hatred will condemn him for any reason whatsoever. They will twist themselves into seizure-like contortions to deny him even the scent of success. They are insane. They are stupid. They are bigots. Take your pick. Then, IGNORE THEM.

So what can we offer the homeless? From my perspective, I see a man who has made the mistake of relying on "experts" on all too many occasions. I see a man who is patient, almost to a fault. I see a man who is concerned about offending his fellow citizens, perhaps too concerned. I see a man who must be conscious of his color. He is not perfect.

However, I am deeply impressed by his intelligence. Mock him as a community organizer, then realize how difficult it is to organize any group. Against all odds, this man of mixed color put together the most impressive community organization we have ever seen and won election to the office of President.

Since taking office, he has decimated al-Qaeda. Regardless of the right-wing lunatic mantra, his stimulus DID work. He is engaged in full-on combat with RINO's determined to set up one roadblock after another to deny not just the President, but all Americans, a promising future. He has offered one solution after another for the ills besetting us, and the RINO's say, "Hell, no," to every single one of them.

I believe it is time for true Democrats to extend a hand of friendship and welcome to homeless Republicans and independents. A joining of the best both parties have to offer means success for all of us in the United States.

RINO's be damned. Full speed ahead for the party of Americans. We can do it.

"THIS is proof positive that Barry is not up to the qualifications required to be the President of the United States of America."

No, THIS is proof that unrelenting, well-coordinated obstruction does, indeed, work. Even if it is at the expnesne of 'promoting the General Welfare' of this once great nation, and all her citizens residing therein.

There is nothing pro-business about a movement that pledges not to hire Americans.

Pledging not to hire for any reason is a serious breach of common decency:
Imagine pursuing others & soliciting others to purposely NOT HIRE our fellow-Americans.
Then imagine knowing that because of your actions children will not eat today, tomorrow or next week.

Here we have a group of people deciding that parents will not be able pay bills, buy food or keep a roof over their heads. Playing God at the expense of those less fortunate IS OBSCENE.

DBO, it's a half percent today and a half percent tomorrow untill it's 5.6%.

How about living with with over a $100,000 less?

Besides we're not talking about what YOU can live with, since apparently you don't even drive a car.

Well, Now ABC News is on to the Fisker Automotive debacle:

If you had bothered to take the time to read the thread above - you would of noticed FR also mentioned it.

Instead, your haste to slam First Read makes you look irrational...

Not that today is any different then others! lol

Gingerbread Mamma, thank you for posting that letter; it is so true. Andrew Sullivan hit the nail on the head as well.

Backhouse, it's pretty pathetic that a party would rather have the economy in rubble and millions unemployed in order to defeat President Obama. Disgusting and it likely will backfire on the TP.

Well Feisty, Fisker is near and dear to me since I was on the snake britten project for a year.

Do tell, why is expounding on something in the First Reead Story a slam? You and your ilk do it all the time.

BTW FR did a whole thread on Marco Rubio yesterday, maybe if you took the time to read it, you could have posted your rant there.

Irrational?

Coming from you?

Priceless!

Lets see: If I make 2 million, An increase of one-half of one percent tax on that 2^nd one million = $5,000. Gosh- think I could survive on 5K less making what I’d be making? Wow, it’d be pretty rough going.

You see DBO, I have no objection to this, or if MY taxes were increased by one-half of one percent. What I object to is what it will be spent on. Yes it would be nice to have more teachers, fire fighter and police, but it would be better if we still didn't spend 1.3T more than we collect. Sooooooo, yes you can raise taxes, but if it's not for deficit reduction then I'm a vote against. Until we put our fiscal house in order NO MORE TAXES.

WCA:

How about living with with over a $100,000 less?

On an income of $20 million? So very sad.

But, you want REAL sad?

How about being one of the 12,400 average Wisconsin citizens who lost their jobs last month?

(read my post, below, and weep for them)

Jody, you are so right,

Voted down last night by GOP, the American Jobs Act provision under review: will put cops back on the beat, firefighters back taking care of our communities, teachers back with our children, tax cuts to families and small businesses and put our veterans back to work.

What on Earth could be wrong with that?

@David

So what can we offer the homeless? From my perspective, I see a man who has made the mistake of relying on "experts" on all too many occasions. I see a man who is patient, almost to a fault. I see a man who is concerned about offending his fellow citizens, perhaps too concerned. I see a man who must be conscious of his color. He is not perfect.

But somehow his decisions are the correct ones. I'm sorry but the man who signed the health care reform legislation into law is not where this independent is.

Another Solyndra? Meanwhile, ABC reports on what it suggests could be another Solyndra-like story. "With the approval of the Obama administration, an electric car company that received a $529 million federal government loan guarantee is assembling its first line of cars in Finland, saying it could not find a facility in the United States capable of doing the work. Vice President Joseph Biden heralded the Energy Department’s $529 million loan to the start-up electric car company called Fisker as a bright new path to thousands of American manufacturing jobs. But two years after the loan was announced, the job of assembling the flashy electric Fisker Karma sports car has been outsourced to Finland."

____________________________________________

Now, THIS is FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barry is sending his beloved "green jobs" overseas!!!!!

"Dick" Trumpka is not going to be happy about this one.

DBO, can you spin this example of Barry being unqualified to be the President of the United States of America to be somehow GWB's or the Republican's fault??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AM, come on, you are really off you game lately. DBO said $2 million, you said $20 million.

5.6% of $20 million is over $1 million dollars.

I don't care how much you make that's a lot of money.

Considering the government will waste $500,000 of it, I don't think that is very good policy.

Voted down last night by GOP, the American Jobs Act provision under review: will put cops back on the beat, firefighters back taking care of our communities, teachers back with our children, tax cuts to families and small businesses and put our veterans back to work.

What on Earth could be wrong with that?

The fact we don't have them money to pay for them unless we borrow more? And if you think the 0.5% on millionaires will cover this, answer this question. How long will it take for the new tax to collect 35B in revenues? How long before the 35B is spent? If the the time it takes to collect the money is longer than the time it takes to spend then you have to borrow to cover the difference.

So, this will increase the deficit from 1.3T. I vote against.

Jody, as always your review is excellent. Along with other posts today a great start for the day.

thank you for the kind words.

Got to go run errands, see you all later.

My goodness libbies why can't Obama come up with a bill that will at least get the support of his own party?

His budget was an utter failure. The Jobs bill went down with at least 8 dems against.

And now he loses 2 1/2 on letting the latest piece got to vote.

Seriously, you'd think he could at least get the support of his own guys.

Guess not.

Thanks so much Gingerbread Mamma for your post.

Talk to you later.

5.6% of $20 million is over $1 million dollars.

I don't care how much you make that's a lot of money.

Yes, and so is 5.6 percent of $20,000, to the person who makes $20,000. Believe it or not, there are such people. Minimum wage gives you only slightly more than $15,000. 5.6 percent of that is a lot, as well, if you have to pay for rent, food, clothing, health care, and transportation out of it. Doesn't leave much, does it?

Which one of these people would you rather be?

Yeah, I figured as much.

Proportion is everything, isn't it?

Stop whining.

Morning everyone. Well kudos to President Obama for his masterly plan for eliminating Kadaffy and liberating Libya. The Repugs won't give him any credit but the rest of the World does. So who cares what the Repugs think. I love it.

So the Republicans turned down another Bill designed to help the average people of their own Country. My what a surprise. This will just help shove their Re-election hopes deeper into the toilet. They have become their own worst enemies.

Obama in 2012.

"Hiya kids, hiya, hiya." Froggy

Well, Podna's it's been a tough week out here on the prairie and the ol' Tishomingo Kid is gonna call it a day with this post and then mosey on down to the saloon and git me a head start on the weekend.

But before I go, please allow me to sincerely wish you all a happy and relaxing weekend. My week is ending on a good note. My "ignores" have been restored. The world didn't end, and Herman Cain is imploding as I knew he would. The President's people are preparing to face Mitt in the General next year, he's the guy as I knew he would be. I predict Pawlenty is going to be his choice for VP.

The gop/tp/lds (note small letters) is so last century. We the people are onto them and their obstructionist tactics will greatly enhance the President's re-election victory. I am expecting an historic landslide in 2012. No, really, I mean it. I think several of the newly elected tp's will find themselves out on the street, one-term wonders, buh-bye. I think a certain independent and former VP candidate will also be looking for work after November 2012. Based on what I am seeing and hearing I believe the forces light have a very good chance of regaining the House and strengthening the hold on the Senate over the forces of darkness (re:gop/tp/lds for those of you who havn't had your morning coffee).

It's a bright, sunny, autumn day out here on the prairie and I have dogs to take out to the field and many beers await my pleasure.

So, on those happy thoughts and predictions I leave you in the good hands of Navy, Dawn, Feisty and all the rest of the real and good Americans on this thread.

Good night Irene, I"ll see you in my dreams.

"Plunk your magic twanger Froggy."

Obama/Biden 2012

From Steve Jobs upcoming biography. Jobs was a liberal and supporter of the current Administration.

Jobs' Meeting With Obama

Jobs, who was known for his prickly, stubborn personality, almost missed meeting President Obama in the fall of 2010 because he insisted that the president personally ask him for a meeting. Though his wife told him that Obama "was really psyched to meet with you," Jobs insisted on the personal invitation, and the standoff lasted for five days. When he finally relented and they met at the Westin San Francisco Airport, Jobs was characteristically blunt. He seemed to have transformed from a liberal into a conservative.

"You're headed for a one-term presidency," he told Obama at the start of their meeting, insisting that the administration needed to be more business-friendly. As an example, Jobs described the ease with which companies can build factories in China compared to the United States, where "regulations and unnecessary costs" make it difficult for them.

Jobs also criticized America's education system, saying it was "crippled by union work rules," noted Isaacson. "Until the teachers' unions were broken, there was almost no hope for education reform." Jobs proposed allowing principals to hire and fire teachers based on merit, that schools stay open until 6 p.m. and that they be open 11 months a year.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/20/steve-jobs-biography-obama_n_1022786.html?icid=maing-grid7|aim|dl1|sec1_lnk3|106076

David Walker, excellent post. The only thing I'll add is Obama/Biden 2012!

Am - unemployment is sad, but is your answer to have the government hire all the unemployed?

There are about 14 million without work. THis bill sought to keep teachers and cops employed.

Why them? What about the ones with no job?

As you are found of asking - might it be political?

How about Jesse Jackon Jr.'s "solution?"

Just ridiculous. See we already have enough government and government jobs. What is Obama doing for the private sector?

Learned lots of things this week:

We learned the Liberals now love wars in countries that aren't a threat to us. That is quite a growth opportunity for them, they were way opposed to those things just a couple of years ago. And the Libs are now all for the assassinations of leaders we don't like, that certainly saves us from the messy process of torturing them. Welcome aboard Libs! That's the Dick Cheney approach to dealing with foreign affairs! ""We came, we saw, he died," Hillary joked when told of news reports of Qaddafi's death by an aide in between formal interviews. That a girl Hillary, Dick is so proud of you!

We learned that even the Democrats in Congress have wised up to Obama Stimulus programs and that they are just a waste of taxpayer money. Even Harry Reid can't cobble a bill together in his Democrat majority Senate that will pass. Still waiting on the FY2012 budget too Harry. Maybe now that you're done screwing around with Obama's idiotic ideas you can get that budget out the door?

We learned the Obama Green Energy slush fund gave another half a billion to Fisker, a Green car maker, in Finland. It's just the taxpayers money, right? Who cares about that?

We learned that the Occupy crowd is as socialist as they come, and that they are throwing their full support behind Obama and 2012. Now the trick for Obama is to make sure they can get that bunch to wake up before the polls close on election day.

But AM, they don't want to take 5.6% from people making minimum wage.

What's your point?

Wow WCA - the news/networks are starting to cover Fisker.

That's $500 million for Solyndra - wasted.

$500 for Fisker - wasted.

$1.2 for SunPower - wasted.

Obama is great at killing green investment.

The Republicans are so hell-bent on the President not "winning" that they chose to obstruct the jobs bill just so Obama would not have two successes in one day.

That is so obvious to me!

As soon as I heard that Gadhafi was dead I pictured Lindsay Graham saying excatly what he ended up saying. LMAO!

Liz and Dick Cheney are somewhere trying to put together a narrative that gives credit to the Bush adminstration for taking out Gadhafi.

The rest of the world ie heralding NATO and especially America and the GOP is whining about

it took to long. Seriously?

President Obama has taken out more terrorists in 6 months than Bush/Cheney did in 8 years. None bigger than UBL and MG.

Fox News was so unimpressed with the news they chose not to run the story most of the day and night! Real Patriots.

Obama/Biden 2012

If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs. The only reason the budget deficit is so high is primarily because of unemployment. The logic of the right is beyond me--we have a $1.3 trillion deficit so don't tax anyone making more than $1,000,000 another half of one percent to create jobs and thus reduce the deficit.

It's really something, eh Spanky?

Over $2 billion dollars.

That would have hired, err...saved...err, supported a whole lot of teachers.

Yeah Sheila, great argument, but sadly is true, then it must be equally true that several dems are hell bent on Obama not winning.

You did not the vote was 50-50?

You are aware that there are not 50 republican dems in the senate.

Well at least not until next November, eh Shelia?

Spanker.

You seem to have the talking point B.S. down.

When it comes to supporting them...not so much.

What's the matter? Wasn't the defence of the B.S. fed to you? (Your masters are doing you a disservice.)

-----------------

P.S. Your deflections and rationalizations when it came to backing up your claims on the debt from this adminstration were very amusing......all you did was repeatedly display your utter and complete ignorance.

Thanks. It was fun.

What is Obama doing for the private sector?

__________________________________________

I think Steve jobs has answered that question.

AM: Stop whining.

That line is nearly stolen from Obama's address to the Congressional Black Caucus:

Take off your bedroom slippers, put on your marching shoes,"."Shake it off. Stop complaining, stop grumbling, stop crying."

Source: http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20111002/LIFE/110020325/Obama-s-speech-takes-bad-turn-stop-complaining-remark

That's the trouble! We all complain too much. We shouldn't ask our leaders to solve problems like millions being unemployed and millions being in poverty. Obama has bus trips he has to go on begging for more money, he doesn't have time to solve these problems.

Our President, and AM, says to stop whining and complaining (or as Barack says in front of the right kind of audience "whinin and complainin").

Yeah AM, sure. You first.

Jody, can you point me to the logic that shows hiring one teacher creates 6 other jobs?

Cause if that's true we should just be building schools and hiring teachers and all of our problems would be solved.

Feisty

What I find funny is the speed at which Rubio threw his parents "under the bus"

• The dates I have given regarding my family's history have always been based on my parents' recollections of events that occurred over 55 years ago and which were relayed to me by them more than two decades after they happened.

Sure Jody. So it's unemployment that is the primary factor now, eh?

So why doesn't Obama just hire all unemployed. Wait, no he should only need to hire 2.3 million, right?

Jody - 14 million divided by 6 [the jobs created] would equal 2.3. So then all the 14 would get hired.

Love the math Jody, but you economics is even better.

You know maybe tax is you strong subject.

WCA:

But AM, they don't want to take 5.6% from people making minimum wage.

What's your point?

They're not "taking it away" from anyone, any more than they "take" MY taxes away from me.

As for my point:

People making millions of dollars a year, who pay a little more in taxes, still have millions left.

The minimum wage worker still has zero left, even if they don't raise his/her taxes.

What's YOUR point?

WCA: That would have hired, err...saved...err, supported a whole lot of teachers.

Could have fixed that bridge that goes from Ohio to Kentucky too.

So why doesn't Obama just hire all unemployed. Wait, no he should only need to hire 2.3 million, right?

Why doesn't he hire 5 people personally? He has the money. If they sit around doing nothing so be it, at least they'll be employed officially. Isn't this what he is asking business to do?

If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs.

______________________________________________

Jody, if your statement were even close to being true, wouldn't Barry be a moron for NOT proposing a "jobs bill" that spends TRILLIONS hiring MILLIONS of teachers, firefighters and cops so the country would have a HUGE budget surplus and 6X MILLIONS of new jobs??

Obama math: it just doesn't add up, unless you are a moron.

Yeah Sheila, great argument, but sadly is true, then it must be equally true that several dems are hell bent on Obama not winning.

You did not the vote was 50-50?

Well at least not until next November, eh Shelia?

As the good ideolog will do, Spanker ignores the fact that ALL the GOP voted to block something that would help people in this country in many ways.

He does so to concentrate on the few Democrats who voted against it.

This is an attempt to deflect from the fact that the GOP has done NOTHING to help the economy.

It also deflects from the fact that the GOP has no desire to help the economy....as long as Obama is in the White House.

Jody, Iowa: If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs.

Oh my. Jody, you are such a peach, which is pronounced "Obama lackey".

We played this game with you Libs in 2009. It didn't work Jody. Fool us once and all Jody. But it appears you don't mind playing the fool, over and over again.

Gad to be here for you Republicants.

So Repbiulicants - how come Obama can't seem to garner the support of all even the dems?

Is that not supported? How about the green waste figures I cited. Still not sufficient.

Hey Republicant - when are you going to actually make a point?

Don't get me wrong, I love the attention, but you really are a one trick pony. All Spanky, all the time.

What's the matter just not the same without me?

Anytime you want to chat about the debt, I'll be around.

Bush - $4 trillion in 8 years.

Obama - 4 trillion 2 1/2 years.

Seems like a point supported, eh Republicant?

The number of dems in opposition are not a deflection, just a reality.

And please indicate where I ignored the fact that the GOP all voted against. In fact Obama is good at getting bi-partisan OPPOSITION.

Just a fact.

Tester, Nelson, Manchin and several others are opposed to the bills.

THey must share the GOP's misgivings about this bill, a repeat of Stimulus 1.

Just deflection, right?

Sure it is.

Hey Republicant - how about you address Jody ridiculous claim about one government hire creating 6 other jobs.

Got anything substantive on that for the group?

Ahem. "Marginal tax rates" are not applied to a person's entire income. Just to that share of income above THE "MARGIN." IF SOMEONE IS MAKING $20 MILLION ABOVE THE "MARGIN," THEN THE AMOUNT OF TAXES INVOLVED IS INDEED MINISCULE BY COMPARISON.

Anna Molly

5.6% of $20 million is over $1 million dollars.

I don't care how much you make that's a lot of money.

Yes, and so is 5.6 percent of $20,000, to the person who makes $20,000. Believe it or not, there are such people. Minimum wage gives you only slightly more than $15,000. 5.6 percent of that is a lot, as well, if you have to pay for rent, food, clothing, health care, and transportation out of it. Doesn't leave much, does it?

AM, your point was absolutely correct.

AM, sorry the class warfare stuff ain't gonna work with me.

Yeah, I'd rather be the guy with $20 million instead of the guy with $20,000

If you say any different you're lying.

And yeah, when they waste half, I'll call it "taking".

When they start using my taxes efficiently, maybe I wouldn't mind "giving" a little more.

If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs. The only reason the budget deficit is so high is primarily because of unemployment. The logic of the right is beyond me--we have a $1.3 trillion deficit so don't tax anyone making more than $1,000,000 another half of one percent to create jobs and thus reduce the deficit.

Wow Jody that's some multiplier effect you got going. So, just so I understand, if we spend 35B we will solve unemployment and the deficit? In fact from what you are saying I don't think we'll need any private sector jobs because the taxes collected from the public sectors will pay for more public sector jobs and cover the deficit as well. This is brilliant. Within two years we will all be a teacher, fire fighter or police officer because we won't need any other type of employment, and it will be self-sustaining, and we will probably have a budget surplus.

One last thing Jody, before you start your new job as a teacher, fire fighter or police officer, can you drop by the DOE and invent the perpetual motion machine?

"Besides we're not talking about what YOU can live with, since apparently you don't even drive a car."

??? Actually, I drive 3 of 'em and an old pick up truck on occasion.

But- your whole argument against that measlly half-percent is that it 'could' go up to something else?

Well, hell- THAT'S a good reason to let 400,000 people remain idle (and on the public dole, I might add), now isn' t it? It 'could' change.

But at least Obama may have picked up 400,000 more votes next year. Not enough to offset voter suppression efforts, of course, but the way the repubs are playing this out, there'll be more.

Jody,

If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs.

How clueless? You guys never learn.

"Those teachers, forefighters and poice officiers" can't even support / sustain their own jobs much less create 6 other jobs - you don't remember that we have already done this drill twice before, you guys spewed the same crap, conservatives explained why it doesn't work, it didn't work and now you want to do it again?

The only reason the budget deficit is so high is primarily because of unemployment.

Duh ..... unemployment among the private the sector that supports and pays for the government jobs.

The logic of the right is beyond me--

Children's fairy tales are beyond you ....

You don't kill the Golden Goose.

Clue for the clueless ...... Private sector jobs are the Golden Goose.

"Next stop for o'bama, Africa. Yes...make it a lifetime tour.

"You see DBO, I have no objection to this, or if MY taxes were increased by one-half of one percent. What I object to is what it will be spent on. Yes it would be nice to have more teachers, fire fighter and police, but it would be better if we still didn't spend 1.3T more than we collect. Sooooooo, yes you can raise taxes, but if it's not for deficit reduction then I'm a vote against. Until we put our fiscal house in order NO MORE TAXES."

I nderstand, Alan, point well taken. What if we tried to go BOTH, at least unti the immediate crisis is under control? More revenue AND less spending?

All the Dems voted for the AJA on both occasions. Except the same old Blue Dogs, who just like Republicans, are sure to pee on any legislation that will make the lives of ordinary Americans better.

Republicans voted down 3 Jobs bills this year. And in a united front last week they voted against the American Jobs Act last week. Last night again ~ they voted down the first component that would have created jobs for hundreds of thousands of teachers, firefighters, police, veterans.

Last year if you remember Speaker Boehner it was, "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs". What happened?
100% of Republican Senators said No ~ to 1.9 million jobs, No ~ to raising the GDP by 2 points and bringing unemployment down.

We need to create all the jobs we can on every & all fronts to put our people back to work. No exceptions.

GOP quit filibustering jobs! A majority vote in the Senate on creating jobs is enough. Plenty!

Well DBO, yesterday I remember a thread where you had no interest in the price of oil as it pertained to Libya, so I guess I assumed you don't drive a car.

'could'? $35 billion now @ 0.5%.

$412 Billion to follow. Do the math.

Ain't no 'could' about it.

AM, sorry the class warfare stuff ain't gonna work with me.

Yeah, I'd rather be the guy with $20 million instead of the guy with $20,000

If you say any different you're lying.

And yeah, when they waste half, I'll call it "taking".

When they start using my taxes efficiently, maybe I wouldn't mind "giving" a little more.

Gotta hand it to you, WCA.

You've proven yourself to be the master ...

... of stating the obvious.

I bow to your superiority.

I'll admit it. I'd rather be rich than poor.

But if I was, I wouldn't whine about my taxes being "taken" like my money is somehow special and qualitatively better than the money earned by the rest of the population that's also "taken" in taxes.

No one wants government waste. I don't make $20 million, but why would I want the government to waste what I pay?

That's a whole other question and it gives you no special standing to complain.

Now stop whining and just thank providence that you're NOT the person who makes minimum wage.

Anytime you want to chat about the debt, I'll be around.

Bush - $4 trillion in 8 years.

Obama - 4 trillion 2 1/2 years.

Seems like a point supported, eh Republicant?

Great Spanker. If you are willing to further display your ignorance on the issue, I am willing to mock you.

Only a simple minded, ideological no-nothing simply looks at the dates of the debt.

An intellectually honest person, who is looking for the truth and reality would look at the policies and the costs of those policies.

This is is why, being an intellectually dishonest or naive, willfully ignorant ideolog, you cannot point to the policies and the cost of those policies that make up the $4 T you attribute to Obama.

Sorry, jr. The only think supported was your delusion.

Buzzers: ??? Actually, I drive 3 of 'em

Buzz on the open road with his friends:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobility_scooter

Fast and Furious!!!

Just a fact.

Also a fact, Spanker, is that the GOP has done NOTHING to help this economy, or create jobs.

(And before you spout off with the spoon fed B.S., pointing to random legislation consisting of ideological wish lists, does not cut it, jr.)

Hey Drive By - Based on Jody's math if we hire 60,000 teachers it will result in another 360,000 jobs.

So why didn't they sell the bill last night that way?

That's over a a half a million per teacher. Good pay if you can get it.

Small price to pay to put 420,000 people to work, eh?

"Popover candidate" Herman Cain wants to make the thrift store business the opportunity of the future - and wreck New York's Fifth Avenue.

Mr. All-Puffed-Up-But-Hollow-Inside-and-Full-of-Hot-Air (hence, for those of you who have limited culinary knowledge, the reference to a popover) constantly repeats that anyone purchasing secondhand goods pays no Federal sales tax under his 9-9-9 plan. The Salvation Army and Goodwill must be cheering him on - but Saks Fifth Avenue is probably hiring armies of workers to send him letter bombs.

Actually, I don't much care about Saks and its legion of pampered idiots who overpay for the chain's goods. But I do care that Herman Cain so condescendingly regards most Americans as sharecroppers who are lucky if they can afford a $1 used t-shirt at the thrift store.

It is typical of the Republican right that it smooches up to the wealthy few and outdoes its patrons in sneering at working folk. "Class warfare," after all, is what that crowd has been engaged in since the nation's founding, regardless of party label.

Herman Cain wins the BIG trophy as the exemplar of the would-be financial aristocrats seeking the Republican nomination for President. He can do nose-in-the-air and not a drop of snot better than all the rest combined.

"Bush - $4 trillion in 8 years.

Obama - 4 trillion 2 1/2 years.

Anyone know how much of the 2nd 4 trillion was debt-service for the first 4 trillion?

White Collar,

If they used it efficiently, they wouldn't need any more of your, AM's, mine, or anyone else's money in the form of additional taxes.

"From each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her need".

Not exactly the credo that I live by, nor do I expect anyone else to live by it, including the U.S. Government.

Spanker.

THey must share the GOP's misgivings about this bill, a repeat of Stimulus 1.

Not sure why. According to ALL the economic analysis, Stimulus 1 helped.....

John Makin of the conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute:

The real economy also responded to the massive stimulus but remained heavily dependent on it. In the United States, growth during the second half of 2009 probably averaged about 3 percent. Absent temporary fiscal stimulus and inventory rebuilding, which taken together added about 4 percentage points to U.S. growth, the economy would have contracted at about a 1 percent annual rate during the second half of 2009.

http://www.aei.org/outlook/100928

Or Mark Zandi, advisor to the McCain campaign:

The Great Recession has finally come to an end, in large part because of unprecedented policy efforts by the Federal Reserve and fiscal policymakers. The cost to taxpayers has been substantial but would have been even greater if aggressive action was not taken and the financial crisis and recession had been allowed to continue unchecked.

http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/JEC-Fiscal-Stimulus-102909.pdf

Or the CBO about the third quarter of 2009:

On that basis, CBO estimates that in the third quarter of calendar year 2009, an additional 600,000 to 1.6 million people were employed in the United States, and real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product (GDP) was 1.2 percent to 3.2 percent higher, than would have been the case in the absence of ARRA (see Table 1). Those ranges are intended to reflect the uncertainty of such estimates and to encompass most economists’ views on the effects of fiscal stimulus.

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/106xx/doc10682/Frontmatter.2.2.shtml

Or what the CBO said about the forth quarter of 2009:

In sum, CBO estimates that in the fourth quarter of calendar year 2009, ARRA’s policies:
-- Raised real GDP by between 1.5 percent and 3.5 percent,
-- Lowered the unemployment rate by between 0.5 percentage points and 1.1 percentage points,
-- Increased the number of people employed by between 1.0 million and 2.1 million, and
-- Increased the number of full-time-equivalent jobs by 1.4 million to 3.0 million compared with what those amounts would have been otherwise (see Table 1).

The effects of ARRA on output and employment are expected to increase further in calendar year 2010 but then diminish in 2011 and fade away by the end of 2012 (see Table 3).

http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=11044

On that basis, CBO estimates that in the first quarter of calendar year 2010, ARRA’s policies:
--Raised the level of real (inflation-adjusted) gross domestic product (GDP) by between 1.7 percent and 4.2 percent,
--Lowered the unemployment rate by between 0.7 percentage points and 1.5 percentage points,
--Increased the number of people employed by between 1.2 million and 2.8 million, and
--Increased the number of full-time-equivalent jobs by 1.8 million to 4.1 million compared with what those amounts would have been otherwise (see Table 1). (Increases in FTE jobs include shifts from part-time to full-time work or overtime and are thus generally larger than increases in the number of employed workers.)

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/115xx/doc11525/05-25-ARRA.pdf

Spanky

I am wondering why only union jobs are causing the panic. There are any number of people in this town who have lost their jobs and they are not police, fire or teachers.

I listened to Reid make the statement "private sector jobs have been doing just fine", and my jaw dropped. That is so easy to disprove with the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Why would he make such an untrue statement?

I nderstand, Alan, point well taken. What if we tried to go BOTH, at least unti the immediate crisis is under control? More revenue AND less spending?

There is always a crisis. In good times, the money is spent because there are always unmet needs, in bad times the money is spent to get us back to good times. Either way the arguments are futile because the lenders are not going sustain our lifestyle indefinitely. Our fiscal insanity and the demographics of the baby boomers means we are going to be taxed more and receive less from government at all levels, local, state and federal. It's inevitable. I am still waiting for a leader with the testicular certitude to level with the people.

AM:

Now stop whining and just thank providence that you're NOT the person who makes minimum wage.

Well aren't you feeling superior this morning Anna Molly?

At one point in my life I did make minimu wage, and I have been unemployed and I have had to scrape to get by.

Just like most of the people who post here.

I didn't whine then, and I am not whining now.

Just, as you said, stating the obvious.

The government is not entitled to any more of MY money until they learn how to spend what I already give them.

'Cants: Also a fact, Spanker, is that the GOP has done NOTHING to help this economy, or create jobs.

Odd. Missing from all the spittle coming from the Libs like 'Cants here was the Senate Republicans voting for a measure in the Obama plan:

Democrats expect to propose the same pay-for — raising taxes on income over $1 million — for each.

The Senate also voted on and narrowly rejected, 57-43, a Republican alternative that would have eliminated the 3-percent withholding tax on federal contracts.

Republicans offered the bill, another piece of Obama’s jobs package, to show they are willing to find common ground on some parts of the president’s agenda.

Ten Democrats defected to vote with the Republicans to bring the bill just three votes short of the 60-vote threshold needed to proceed.

The ten Democrats voting with Republicans were: Sens. Al Franken (Minn.), Kay Hagan (N.C.), Robert Menendez (N.J.), Amy Klobuchar (Minn.), Michael Bennet (Colo.), Ben Nelson (Neb.), Jon Tester (Mont.), Joe Manchin (W.V.), Claire McCaskill (Mo.) and Bill Nelson (Fla.).

Source: http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/188969-senate-deals-second-defeat-to-obamas-jobs-plan

Looks like your little premise has just been proved wrong 'Cants. Wanna try again?

I have learned that there are "8 Heads in a Duffle Bag" running for POTUS from the TEA/GOP.

What we learned this week is that our ever-campaigning president is still wrapped in amazement over his own brilliance. The infinite wisdom of his wobbly "jobs bill" was just too overwhelming for anyone else to comprehend. So he goes around insulting all but his own lemmings.

Nobody else had the wisdom to see that his new plan had "save the country" all over it...they just couldn't "understand" it...as Mr. Obama puts it ( over and over again...with little chuckles thrown in for effect )...so he'll break it down "into little chunks" that all but the most brilliant minds ( like his ) can understand.

What a petulant little punk. And maybe people who respond to pollsters that they approve of the president "personally" will begin to see what an insulting, divisive, and below-the-belt type of person he is.

Drive By.

"Bush - $4 trillion in 8 years.

Obama - 4 trillion 2 1/2 years.

Anyone know how much of the 2nd 4 trillion was debt-service for the first 4 trillion?

A good amount.

The truth.

The majority of our debt since 2009 is from the lost federal revenue and increased manditory outlays due to the recession.

Another large chunk is from the leftover polcies from the last administration.

And yes, the policies of this administration, almost entirely to help the economy, have added to the debt.

http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2011/07/24/opinion/sunday/24editorial_graph2.html?ref=sunday

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9957/01-07-Outlook.pdf

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/108xx/doc10871/Chapter1.shtml#1096708

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/120xx/doc12039/01-26_FY2011Outlook.pdf

David Walker thanks,

Your post is right on the mark. You wrote:

"They used every rotten trick and every dirty tactic imaginable".

GOPTP playing God at the expense of those less fortunate IS OBSCENE.

WCA:

The government is not entitled to any more of MY money until they learn how to spend what I already give them.

Same point. You seem to think YOUR money is special, and the poor should continue to pay -- and even pay more -- while you don't have to.

Just like a king.

Well, then, Your Majesty, don't blame anyone but yourself when the bridges start collapsing, and the Interstate is nothing but potholes, and you have an accident because your town couldn't afford to repair that stoplight that wasn't working, and your plane falls out of the sky because there was no one there to inspect them and the private sector failed to ensure your safety.

After all, if you're unsafe, it's your own fault.

(Herman Cain approves this message.)

At one point in my life I did make minimu wage, and I have been unemployed and I have had to scrape to get by.

Just like most of the people who post here.

I didn't whine then, and I am not whining now.

Could have fooled me.

We ALL worked at minimum wage, sometime, WCA.

The difference appears to be that some of us have compassion for those who do now.

JoAnna.

Odd. Missing from all the spittle coming from the Libs like 'Cants here was the Senate Republicans voting for a measure in the Obama plan:

And missing from the attempt to rationalize your collective delusion was the reason:

Under current law, government contractors must pay up front 3-percent of federal contracts as a down payment on future taxes. Republicans planned to offset its cost by rescinding un-obligated balances at federal agencies, a pay-for Sen. Debbie Stabenow (D-Mich.) once proposed to offset the repeal of a controversial reporting requirement of the 2010 healthcare reform law.

A Senate Democratic aide said Stabenow offered the offset before congressional leaders reached a deal setting spending levels for 2012.

The aide said it would go against the deal Congress struck earlier this year to raise the debt limit.

----------------

Looks like your little premise has just been proved wrong 'Cants. Wanna try again?

Not really, kid.

It does look like either your ideology or political naivete caused you to miss the fact that the GOP bringing the "alternative" up purely for political reasons.

Proving, once again, they are way more interested in defeating Obama then helping the economy.

Again, the GOP has done NOTHING to help the economy. They controll the house, why is it nothing that has come out of there has been found by independent analysis to help the economy?

I have learned that there are "8 Heads in a Duffle Bag" running for POTUS from the TEA/GOP.

LOL!!!

They almost fit into the Batman villans....

Romney = Two Face

Paul = The Joker

Perry or Cain = The Riddler

Bachmann = Poison Ivy

Newt = The Penguin

Well Feisty, Fisker is near and dear to me since I was on the snake britten project for a year.

Then they left because they said they could not find a facility that could perform the work, nice going WCA, you helped screw that up but good.

'Cants: It does look like either your ideology or political naivete caused you to miss the fact that the GOP bringing the "alternative" up purely for political reasons.

Sure 'Cant's, "political reasons" you say? Or, you are way too much 'Cants! Sure, and Obama and the Democrats? They bring up there schemes purely for the "Good of the country". Pure as the driven snow that Obama is.

"Political reasons" - the line of the day from the Libtards.

Carry on 'Cants.

So, this is a contribution to discussion about the nation's needs and what to do?

tony-268769

What a petulant little punk. And maybe people who respond to pollsters that they approve of the president "personally" will begin to see what an insulting, divisive, and below-the-belt type of person he is.

Ummm, Tony, you are welcome to your opinion. But most of the nation recognizes the GOP/TP as the ones who have been divisive. Most of the nation recognizes that the GOP/TP has betrayed the voters' trust by ignoring genuine efforts to address economic woes and joblessness. And most of the nation agrees with President Obama that he at least is making a sincere effort to get something done.

When people like you use the term "divisive" about our President, we understand. You have always been "divided" from the rest of the country, you have always despised not simply Mr. Obama, but anyone who isn't a tear-it-all-down Libertarian, and you have always been divided from the rest of us who haven't completely sold out to the monied interests behind the Heritage Foundation, Americans for Progress, and the Cato Institute. But at least they pay well - assuming you did a good job negotiating your pay, eh, Tony?

Forrest -- Wouldn't that mean that the loan helped pay WCA's wages if he worked on the project here in USA?

Forrest :Then they left because they said they could not find a facility that could perform the work, nice going WCA, you helped screw that up but good

Forrest, sorry, I don't understand this.

I was in the design and development of the Karma, not the manufacturing. Fisker is building the car at Valemt in Finland (Where they currently build Porsche's) because the car needs to be hand built. Something that UAW folks don't like to do. That is what Henrik Fisker was saying.

Trust me, this car is never getting off the ground in any real numbers. Plan was 15,000 a year. At that rate they still lose money. DOE should have stayed away from this.

I have only dealt with one American plant that hand built cars, the Dodge Viper plant in Detroit. Trust me, it was a pain in the neck.

JoeAnna.

Sure 'Cant's, "political reasons" you say? Or, you are way too much 'Cants! Sure, and Obama and the Democrats? They bring up there schemes purely for the "Good of the country". Pure as the driven snow that Obama is.

"Political reasons" - the line of the day from the Libtards.

Carry on 'Cants.

Um....

Can you actually point to legislation from the GOP that would help the economy?

Or is all you have political moves from the GOP?

Sure, both sides are playing politics. But the fact remains, the GOP has yet to put forth anything that would help the economy, and the administration along with Democrats have put forth plenty.

You danced around that fact by pointing to a piece of the jobs bill the GOP liked, but then tied to something they knew the Democrats would not like, and knew would not likely pass.

But, despite all of your attempts to rationalize your delusion, make excuses, deflect, etc, the fact still remains the GOP has yet to put forth ANYTHING substantial to help the economy.

(If I am wrong, please post it. Please post the GOP legislation that independent analysis shows would help the economy.)

JoeAnna.

P.S.

I guess my point is this.

While both sides are playing politics (Shocking, I know.), the Democrats are doing so while presenting legislation that would actually help the economy.

The GOP is doing so putting forth only ideological wish lists, that would not help the economy, and to reach their stated goal, to make Obama a one term president.....the American people be damned.

I realize you are likely to politically naive and ideologically attached to see it. But themz the facts, maam.

SO there it is - our friend Republicants doesn't seem to have much to offer.

Sure he likes to refute the point raised by others, by wisdom from Republicants? Not so much.

So that'd be a no on your refuting the simple fact that the debt was $10.6 trillion on 1/20/09, but now is $14.6 Trillion. Got it. I guess I really was not expecting much. Except some creative personal attacks, which were also lacking.

Yep Republicants - the mean old GOP wants the country to fail. Of course they do, after all we are all Neo-nazi, racists, puppy hating dummies, that want yu to have dirty water and air.

I knwo this because I hang out here with deep thinkers like you.

See Republicants the GOP appears to share the same thoughts as Debbie Wasser-Schultz - the government was not elected to create jobs. That must be what those eight or so dem senators thik as well.

So tell us Republicants, using your own words, why the senate dems opposed the bill. Why did Debbie Downer say that they were not elected to create jobs.

Oh and while you are dazzling us with your wisdom, opine on Jody assertion that one teacher jobs creates 6 other jobs.

So Forrest - should Ed Schultz not totally do a show about Fisker?

All he does is rail on jobs going over seas. Fisker says they could not produce cars here.

I guess Tesla, and all the other hybrid and plug in made here are made by fairies and unicorns?

Why would the government allow such blatant lies Forrest?

Feisty Nocomma:

Keep those posts coming. There is no way I could more clearly demonstrate the moral bankruptcy, the total absence of ethics, and the disgusting, underhanded tactics of the lunatics of the right-wing. You are an icon of filth.

Spanker.

You really do enjoy fooling yourself, huh? LOL!!!

So that'd be a no on your refuting the simple fact that the debt was $10.6 trillion on 1/20/09, but now is $14.6 Trillion. Got it. I guess I really was not expecting much. Except some creative personal attacks, which were also lacking.

LOL!!!

Yep. That would be a no. It is true that the debt is what it is, and was what it was.

What is also true, is that to the simple minded, who know nothing about the debt and deficits, politics, etc, that means everything from 2009 is Obama's doing.

However, to poeple with a brain, who know the issues, and think things through, the policies and who signed them says more about who is responsible for the debt.

But carry on....dumb, dee, dee, dumb, dumb, dumb.

LOL!!! Wow. Just wow.

Jody,

If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs. The only reason the budget deficit is so high is primarily because of unemployment. The logic of the right is beyond me--we have a $1.3 trillion deficit so don't tax anyone making more than $1,000,000 another half of one percent to create jobs and thus reduce the deficit.

Gonna have to call BS on this one. In the educational world, when a federal dollar jobs ends, then the job ends, it only lasts as long as the federal dollars are there. It is not the responsibility of the federal government to provide jobs to people, we have enough government jobs, that average almost double what private sector jobs make on average. Yes, more people working should provide more tax revenue, but then again, if the other 47% would pay taxes, then there would also be revenue.

You want to save jobs, then have the president cut foreign aid to countries and then I would encourage my congressional leaders to spend that money on a jobs bill. Or maybe ask our president to have the Finish give the foreign aid.

Backhouse,

The Dems stopping the BHO temporary workers bill are all up for election and wont vote for it because they are going through an election cycle.

Except the same old Blue Dogs, who just like Republicans, are sure to pee on any legislation that will make the lives of ordinary Americans better

This on the surface seems to be a couterproductive stance given their job status and needing to be re-elected. Or is it the case that BHO and his temporary workers bill is not anywhere near as popular as you believe? Or that as the details on how it will not work and is a temporary fix come out that it becomes less popular? Or that they see being anywhere aligned with this President is polictical suicide?

When people of his own party will not join his cause because being aligned with him will prevent them from being re-elected, how does the stance of the GOP being opposed to him hurt their chances?

The common thought you Dems keep saying as a new mantra is that this stance of the GOP opposing this bill will prevent them from being elected.

But members of his own party are opposing it as they know SUPPORTING it will keep them from being re-elected. Dont you find this odd?

And the 50-50 vote was to let it progress to discussion. Even more Dems would have been forced to vote against it if it had advanced And more than the 3 said they would have voted against it had it progressed. After all they are up for election and have to indicate they are aginst it passing, even if they voted to let it progress. Otherwise they could not get re-elected.. The GOP saved them (and helped their re-election chances) by blocking it from progressing. Maybe we need to change positions and let this stuff advance so the Dems could join in to kill it. Then maybe you will understand how bad the bill is and exactly how toxic this president is.

ABO 2012

Keep those posts coming. There is no way I could more clearly demonstrate the moral bankruptcy, the total absence of ethics, and the disgusting, underhanded tactics of the lunatics of the right-wing. You are an icon of filth.

From the original Feisty - thank you David! I couldn't agree more! ;o)

That is an ultra high end car WCA, only people with Ferrari and Lambo type money can afford it, but it is an awesome car.

So tell us Republicants, using your own words, why the senate dems opposed the bill.

Not sure, Spanker.

I do know, however, that the independent analysis shows the legislation from the adminstration would help the economy.

I also know the GOP has not put forth ANYTHING that the analysis shows will help the economy.

I also know you have proven time and time again you know very little about politics, and the issues.

Try to study up a bit, and maybe you can figure it out, jr.

Republicant, you are right. You write:

"GOP has yet to put forth anything that would help the economy, and the administration along with Democrats have put forth plenty.

You danced around that fact".

GOP recently proposed a bill that was for dirty air and dirty water. It was for less acountability on Wall Street, and did not create a single job.

The Do-Nothings are dancing on our tax dollars, saying No to millions of jobs of Americans from all sides of the aisle,

Who have been put out of work ~ no matter the reasons or who is to blame.

Republican Senators playing God at the expense of those less fortunate.

And it could not be more clear that GOPTP wants to crash the US economy, and bring the global economy down with us.

So tell us Republicants

Spanker, you are a riot....

Having been pathetically unable to support the debt he blindly and ignorantly attributed to this president, he fires off a plethera of deflections.

Why did so and so do that? Explain this. What about him..or her? See what she said?

LOL!!! (I am more interested in what they actually do, and accomplish, and the GOP has done nothing, and accomplished nothing....except to block anything from this administration when possible.)

All in a desperate attempt to preserve the spoon fed delusions.

Big Bear -

Foreign aid is only about 1% of the Federal budget, and a substantial portion goes to Israel.

People who regularly complain about U.S. foreign aid programs do not understand that even that tiny portion of national spending can be vital to the recipients. Some of the foreign aid provides medical care in desperate lands, helps keep down the spread of AIDS and drug-resistant tuberculosis, and enables people to lift themselves toward greater prosperity (and no, I am not referring to graft).

Remarks like yours reflect both a lack of awareness and some resentment, but not reality. I've seen you write better stuff.

I got you republicant, yours is a one way street.

I'm not surprised.

But hey, as long as the stimulus worked, right Republicant.

We are all good.

dsdsherm,

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012......or the USA will revisit Feudalism under the unmerciful, calculating auspices of the 0.01%.

You are wrong on the public view of the AJA. NBC/WSJ has reported that 63% of Americans want all the provisions in the American Jobs Act.

All the Democrats voted for it, except the usual Blue Dogs. Nothing new.

However, 100% of Republican Senators voted against the American Jobs Act. Lock, stock and barrel.

GOP is now guilty of crimes against the American people, depriving families who are desperate for work, depriving families of the means to put food on the table.

Saying No to jobs in the most catastrophic recession in 60 years is:

OBSCENE AND UNCONSCIONABLE.

A pay check means food, means taking care of our children, means staying alive.

EQUALS ZERO MERIT TO THE NORQUISTIANS AND THEIR BENEFACTORS.

Obama/Biden 2012

Anyone else notice how Fiesty is not herself today? It is like she has been taken over by an evil spirit.

Right, new fiesty?

JohnA...

Your crystal ball is a bit out of whack...it really cooked up an erroneous brew of blather. I've "sold out to the Heritage Foundation" ??? Wow !!! I guess I'm still waiting for paychecks I 'negotiated'...a guy with a broken crystal ball told me that they really "pay well". Plus...I'll need to Google the "Heritage Foundation" since I have no idea who my new employer is....should be interesting !

And the president's "sincere effort" doesn't impress me much, nor has it impressed the nation's economy much. He seemed really 'sincere' shooting those green job photo-ops at the Solyndra plant...right down to the safety glasses. Even told us that plants like Solyndra were "the future". And now we are "sincerely" another half billion in the hole. And other green factories are also failing.

The 80,000 'green jobs' Mr. Obama said he "created"...well, the number turned out to be 8000 jobs...and each took a king's ransom in taxpayer dollars to "create"...sorry...but my 'Heritage Foundation' training leaves me unimpressed...sincerely !

Backhouse,

If we do Obama/Biden 2012 then we wont have a country left anyway. I would take my chances against Fuedalism.

The 63% are wrong, as the numbers supporting this are do to the common ignorance of the people being polled. If it were accurately explained to them, I doubt they would believe it. I dont know of anyone (other than on this board) that wants all the provisions of this bill. I struggle to find people who want parts of it.

The "Blue Dogs" you reference follow BHO more than they dont. These ones listed are up for election and have stated they dont want to hurt their re-election chances by supporting this. Nothing new? What I find new is that now BHO cant even get partisan votes. It is partisan on the side of support, but bipartisan in opposition. How can this be if the bill is really a good bill? He cant get Leiberman? Or McCain? Or anyone on the GOP side to support it? Not even those that bend over backwards to step across the ailse and are typically very liberal?

Just remember, partisan support and bi-partisan opposition says it all.

100% of GOP Senators voted against this legislation- We then it MUST be as bad as I thought it was. And it was never voted on. They voted against it being discussed further. If it were actually voted on, there would have been even more bi-partisan opposition (as somes Dems indicated they would have had to vote against it)

GOP is guilty of nothing short of keeping their promise to their constituants. They promised me they would not raise taxes in any shape manner or size. They promised they would not support spending that was not offset by CUTS (not new taxes). They are guilty alright. Of keeping to their word. How about Obama? Even his own people would not find him guilty of that.

Saying no to jobs would be unconscionable. And if the Pres wanted to find a few cuts to offset the cost of this tripe legislation, I am sure he would also find enough support to get it through. He knows what the criteria is for getting legislation past the House. He just refuses to do it.

The portion voted down was $35 billion. That could have easily been passed if he just found a few items to cut to pay for it. But he has no interest in passing it. $35 billion could easily be trimmed from the current spending without any effort at all.

If he wanted to pass anything, all he has to do is stop adding to the deficit, and make cuts to cover the spending. But he wont. Because, while he may say he want to cut the deficit, he has absolutely nointentions of doing anything towards that end. And even he knows this legislation is a stop gap temporary bandaid, and it is easier to structure it in a way that KNOWS wont get passed than to have it pass and have to explain again why it did not work as he had originally promised.

Obama has zero merit. He is purposely playing these games and putting forth crap legislation he KNOWS wont pass. If anything he has learned in his time in office is it is easier to blame someone else then defend your record of failure. If he would structure it in a way that it could pass, he would lose the ability to blame. which is the ONLY experience he has.

And you sheep keep eating it up and supporting him and calling for the passage of the legislation even he does not want to pass.

ABO 2012

JohnA,

So what would you cut to pay for all of these teachers/cops/first responders to get hired? I thought it was the wish of all the liberals on here to take care of our own first, redistribute the wealth here to all of us. Why should we worry about other countries when we can't take care of our own. My real wish, is that we cut something we don't need to do as much of to pay for those things that put people to work.

Maybe we should ask for the money to be returned from the "Green" energy companies that have outsourced their jobs. Maybe we should cut the average pay of all non military government employees by 5%. Maybe we should keep our foreign aid money here and provide domestic aid.

Is the only solution that those on the left have is to tax people more? Hey, I will agree to higher personal income taxes when everyone pays an income tax. But since we know that 46-50% don't even pay--I don't have to worry about that do I. It all comes down to jealousy, some people have made riches and those on the left don't like it, because they think they should be given a piece of someone else's pie.

Personally, you should have to make your own pie, people are NOT entitled to other people's property or money. This Robin Hood plan of government will not work. You are only entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--NOT the given happiness.

Spanker.

I got you republicant, yours is a one way street.

I'm not surprised.

You haven't got a thing, jr. I am sorry you are upset you cannot back up the drivel you repeat, and have to go on unrelated tangents to distract from that fact.

And no one is suprised at that. LOL!!

But hey, as long as the stimulus worked, right Republicant.

We are all good.

According to the economic analysis, it did help our economy.

So thanks again, for providing another example of crap you were fed, want so desperately to believe, but fail miserably at supporting.

Seriously. Try doing a little of your OWN research. Thinking that research through, on you OWN. And then come to your OWN conclusions.

You will then be able to support what you post, and you will then not amuse me the way you do....and therefor, I will not mock you.....and you truely will be all good. (And not ignorant.)

Spanker.

I wil try one last time....

Can you, or can you not post the policies, along with the costs, from this administration that add up to the $4T you say they are responsible for?

If the answer is yes, then post them.

If the answer is no, then that means you never looked, and, as I stated, blindly parroted the ideological crap you are fed daily.

(In reality, you make it very obvious the latter is what you did, and continually do on these threads.)

Dumb, dee, dee, dumb, dumb,dumb...

Spanky,

I don't know what republicant is thinking, even the Obama Backed Media says that Obama has racked up over 4T in debt since taking office.

www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20095704-503544.html

The debt was $10.626 trillion on the day Mr. Obama took office. The latest calculation from Treasury shows the debt has now hit $14.639 trillion.

It's the most rapid increase in the debt under any U.S. president.

With the elimination of the evil dictator Khaddafy, we learned that thd Grand Old Party does have a heart, cares for world citizens and were very happy for the role our president and NATO played! ReWrite: we learned that the Grand Old Pharisees are still alive and well. Have hearts made of the same stones that they pick up to cast at the President, the 99%, the rest of the world.

Obama 2012!

Paris.

Just AWESOME! Please post more often!

BigBear62.

Spanky,

I don't know what republicant is thinking, even the Obama Backed Media says that Obama has racked up over 4T in debt since taking office.

Well, that is actually the point. I am thinking.

Try it sometime, and perhaps then you will see how the policies are what adds to the debt, and not the timeline.

LOL!!! Wow. The collective delusion.....spreads.

I dont understand this jobs bill anyway. Based on yesterdays WSJ, there is no large scale elimination of teachers, fire and police and that government jobs at the state and local level are down 1% and that next year there is proposed to be an increase in teacher hiring of over 5% and growing each year. I realize that some localities will have budget issues but others hire just like any business. Plus not all school districts have growing enrollment etc. If teachers need to relocate it appears that based on these statisitcs that they wont have any problem finding a job somewhere else. So my guess is that this $35 billion isnt really going into state and local budgets to retain jobs, but will be used to reallocate the current budget amounts that are earmarked for police, fire and teachers and used to fund state local unfunded union pension and retireee health benefits. Its such a huge problem in the high tax, high regulatory states like Cal, Ill and NY that Obama wants to use federal taxpayer money to pay back cronies. Its the same reason the first stimulus didnt work and this $35 billion wont save any jobs but really just be a budget gimmick to provide federal money into union pensions.

Spanky we can't seem to stop any corporation from moving production to other countries, we can't stop Ford, GM, Chrysler, Apple, how can we stop Fisker, how do we single them out. I'm all for it if there is any way we can Spanky.

To listen to the views of some on the economic state the USA finds itself in today one would have to conclude these people do not read the financials of any newspaper not to mention they also ignore any and all news globally. The lack of understanding of the severe impact of the financial meltdown in 2007 through 2008 and their inability to understand the consequences of a meltdown of this magnitude is stunningly ignorant. Enough said!! Only in fairy tales could a crisis this severe be turned around in 2 years. Go back to your story books and look for your happy ending.

Kirk..

You understand plenty.

Two-thirds of the 'stimulus' funds received by my state went to the state and to muncipal governments...not to any 'shovel ready' projects. That money went to the police, firefighters, school teachers, etc. Those are those "saved" jobs we hear about.

Next was the "Education Jobs Act" which directed money to municipal school systems with the edict that the money be "spent to save or create jobs in schoolyear 2011-2012" which was already underway. The law stated that the money was not to be put into a 'rainy day' fund...yet in most towns in my area, that is exactly what happened...the money was mostly socked away for 2012-2013 budget years. And one can't totally blame school systems for doing so...the school year was already in progress...schools just can't simply hire a bunch of new teachers and reorganize all their classrooms and schedules to accommodate Mr. Obama's new hires. Maybe the president doesn't understand that class scheduling is done in the summer...before the school year begins.

And now we see Mr. Obama camapaigning...usually with an out-of-work schoolteacher right behind him so he can point the teacher out for some teleprompter sympathy...and say how those evil Republicans just don't want her to have a teaching job anymore. The female teacher standing next to the president in North Carolina the other day...if she finds a new job without the president's $35 billion ante...do you think Mr. Obama would tell us ? For all we know, she's already back at work, replacing another teacher who moved out of town or became ill.

dsdsherm, When you say "the 63% are wrong":

You echo the neglectful actions of GOP congressionals who do not listen, and have been doing just what they please in Congress.

No matter how loudly Americans are telling them what they want, GOP is acting on behalf of the 0.1% and not ordinary Americans.

Americans are very much for the Buffet Rule, for the American Jobs Act and for a fair deal. They want to put teachers, firefighter, veterans and police back to work in our communities.

NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll recently showed that: "63% of Americans support the American Jobs Act, and 64% of those surveyed agreed that it is a good idea to raise taxes on the wealthy".

So tell them yourself dsdsherm, that they are wrong.

Tell all those the firefighters, cops and teachers & their families they are wrong.

When dsdherm starts donating money to the IRS in the name of pride one can start believing what she writes. Until then consider her a partisan joke.

Dont Carry it all--Why do you think that it couldnt be turned around in 2 years? Its actually been longer than 2 years as the crisis started in the fall of 2008 but the turn around from the bust of the Internet boom and the dramatic impact of 9/11 took far less time. The Iraq war recession and even the Carter recession which in my lifetime was worse than this recession took less time to recover from. With an open mind, do you think its possible that the financial policies implemented to foster a recovery just were not the right ones nor did they work as productively as maybe others. For example, if instead of government let stimulus that basically fed the money into state and local budgets (which indirectly went into union pension and retiree health funds along with saving some government jobs) and targeted temporary tax cuts to individuals which have only a temporary benefit that if Congress and Obama had tried to stimulate the private sector especially the real estate and housing industry that busted with targeted incentives. They could have provided accelerated depreciation, investment tax credits, research and development tax credits, incentives to invest in the US via enterprise zones along with some infrastructure spending that wasnt just allocated to state and local budgets. They could have created a quick federal foreclosure and modification process that would take the band aid very fast on the housing issues etc. Why do you think this recession is more immune to a typical recovery than others?

Kirk -- This was no ordinary recession nice spin. Will reply later I have errands.

Backhouse--yesterday somebody called from a polling service and asked me "Do you agree with the EPA wanting to keep you and your children's air clean from toxins that may kill you?" When I said it depends and that wasnt one of the answers. It was yes or no. Of course the answer is yes in that context but maybe no if they said do you want the EPA to clean up that last toxin that will add one death in a million people maybe at a cost of $300 billion dollars and shift 100,000 jobs overseas so that same toxin will kill a small chinese child. I might say no if asked that way.

Same with these questions. If you asked, Do you want Obama to create jobs? you would say yes or You ask Do you want your neighbor but not you pay more tax what do you think the answer is? Its no different than you saying I want my neighbor to pay more tax but dont you dare take one dollar from my social security away even though I am part of the wealthiest segment in this country the seniors right?

Backhouse--can you provide some backup and support that fireman, police and teachers need $35 billion? The WSJ said that the teacher's own group predicts 5% more teacher hiring next year. Can you provide some guarantee that this wont be just another crony capitalist payoff to his largest campaign donors?

If you want the facts, go look at the American Jobs Act @ AmericanJobsAct.com

or http://www.whitehouse.gov/jobsact#overview

Tomorrow will be worse for the 99% if we do not create jobs in the president.
Trickle down only gets worse if you don't act.

A truckload or a world of questions will not put food on the table of firefighers, police, construction workers and teachers and their families.

You might feel that you are winning the argument in your OWN mind, but it will not solve any realities for ordinary people. Your endless questions and doubts will not help the 99%.

The Iraq war recession and even the Carter recession which in my lifetime was worse than this recession took less time to recover from.

A fine example of why Kirk is not worthy of a response. I've laid out in detail to him that the recession which began during the Carter Administration didn't have as big an impact on employment and didn't reduce GDP as seriously as did the Bush Administration. He responded to NUMBERS with SOURCES by declaring that he lived through it and it wasn't that way.

Today he's back repeating the same information which apparently is "not meant to be a factual statement."

His solution, besides the same "tax breaks cure all" that is the mantra of Conservative Republicans? Accelerating the process of transferring homes from home owners who may be experiencing temporary distress to the Banksters.

Dont carry it all--I wasnt spinning but asking you honestly. I agree this was no ordinary recession but neither was the Carter recession in the early 80s with 20% interest rates and much higher unemployment than we have now and a virtual destruction of our manufacturing base at the time. One of the reasons we feel like this is no ordinary recession is because the actions taken by the government to reverse course didnt work so one view (not spinning) is that the recession is longer and more pronounced because of the failure of Obama's economic policies or its just a deeper recession and that more is needed. My question is why do you think its we need more? One reason I ask is that many of the things Obama has done might be considered as "the right thing to do" from a social policy standpoint but are not very conducive to good economic policy. For example, HCR is certainly not good a great economic policy for job creation but could end up being great social policy. Banning or suspending oil leases and new exploration in the gulf coast we know cost 28,000 jobs overseas. We know his EPA regs cost jobs but could be good social policy. Same with all the money allocated to green energy which could have been put to better investment. The stimulus money that is being used to create, save or fund government union jobs could be seen as great middle class social policy but not great private sector job creation. So it is possible that the actions he has taken has extended the recession rather than gotten us out? No spinning just trying to get your perspective on why you feel differently.

Correction: meant to say,

Tomorrow will be worse for the 99% if we don't create jobs now, in the Present.

This morning, Republican Senators voted down 1.9 million jobs and 2 points GDP ~ to protect millionaires and billionaires from contributing a fraction of a percentage point more in taxes.

While they go to every Norquistian length to protect that excusive 0.1% group ~the richest in the history of the world ~ they refuse to help out the American people with job creation.

You like questions and may ask why? Because GOP/benefactors and affiliates want to crash the economy.

John B, thats inaccurate. You never proved a thing and in fact quite the opposite. We looked at GDP numbers, unemployment and combined with 20 interest rates, double digit inflation we proved that the Carter recession was worse. Your unemployment numbers werent even close to the Carter recession so what are you talking about. I responded to that argument with sources of my own and you know it. Its really a stupid argument anyway trying to prove which is worse of two really bad situations. But we do know one thing and that one approach brought us out of recession and one didnt--do you want to guess which worked?

As for accelerating the process of foreclosure or modification, again you seem to not understand basic financial behavior and try to use the poor unemployed family with 3 kids who lost their job and no food on their table getting foreclosed. The process is far different than that and so are the facts. The vast majority of economists will tell you and have told Obama, that the foreclosure OR modification process (can you read OR John) needs to happen quickly and decisively to remove the overhang of inventory, gaming the system, reduction on existing home values etc from the housing market. You act as if banks and its really not banks but really fannie and freddie but banks just service the loans, provided mortgage to people who didnt know they actually borrowed money. That someone that obligation doesnt require them to pay it back and that gaming the system to live rent free during a 500 day foreclosure process is not fair not helpful to the economy. If people can truly pay and work through a modified loan, that will also be part of the quick process so I am not advocating cross the board foreclosures without any oversight. Typical John again using the exception and straw man lack of compassion argument to hide his views that the nanny state rather than personal accountability or self reliance are the key.

Its like all of these people whining about what happened to their 401(k) accounts as if they didnt have the choice to keep their money invested in money market or treasury bonds. These people made a choice to invest in a stock market that comes with risk and guess what John in my world I think their should be consquences for the choices you make --good or bad. We shouldnt be blaming others for our problems like the rich, wall street or the GOP. Its your choice to take a risk and its not my responsibility to bail you out.

So in other words Backhouse you cant do it. As John B always is asking for sources you cant provide any source in which teachers, police and fire need this money to save jobs nor can you provide any backup that the money doesnt just get diverted into union unfunded pension and health funds right? So you are just a shill for the democratic party with no backup stating the same lies. Who are you trying to convince stating this stuff over and over?

Oh that's right, I remember now!!

High interest rates as required to break stagflation trump any job losses or GDP decrease.

In other words you lived through it and your say so negates the numbers.

You just keep proving what a great idea it is to mostly ignore your prattle. Thanks for once again proving my assertion that you discarded all the facts in preference to your say so.

John, do you do this for a living? go back and yes the GDP went down faster in this recession but look at the unemployment numbers again. On a percentage basis which was higher? Why do you refuse to ever even on the smallest of issues give an inch. You also ignored the totality of my comments to fight on small point you take issue with. Living through it doesnt negate the numbers nor do your numbers negate mine but this prattle crap is beneath you.

You are desperately spinning and getting lost in fabrication.

Trying to get others to prove the negative is an old ruse and an old game to buy time for folks like you, who are desperately fighting common sense realities.

People out of work,

Recovering from recession,

Requires putting people back to work to improve the economy.

And $$$money back into the Treasury.

((Remember, the top 0.1% don't want to pay Revenues. So there is even more need to create jobs and get the money recycling into the system.

Unless you want to crash the economy and privatize everything and put people in low paying jobs with no benefits))

gingerbread mama - is assasination going to be our new foreign policy?

backhouse, why not give us the original link, rather than an op-ed piece fro think progress?

Backhouse or Navy--your cant be that stupid. I am actually asking you to prove a positive and I am all for putting people who ARE ACTUALLY OUT OF WORK back to work. You are making statements and conclusions that police, firemen and teachers are out of work and need this $35 billion stimulus and I saying where is the support that they are out of work. Wouldnt that be the first thing anyone asks any allocated spending item is to support its need? Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said according the Teacher's own hiring statistics that teacher hiring in the aggregate nationwide will be up 5% next year and up over 13% over the next few years without this bill. So why is Obama requesting this money?

So can you tell us that this money wont just be democratic cronysim.

Kirk -- You do not understand the magnitude as evidenced by your post. The US and others are in a process of de-leveraging. That is a fact. The sheer scope of that process cannot happen in 2 or 3 years. No ifs ands or buts. We are lucky in that we did not sink into a new Great Depression and as unpopular as the measures were to prevent that they worked. At least in the sense that it mitigated severe immediate consequences. Instead they chose a very windy path to spread out the impact on purpose. The purpose? To give them time to deal with very complicated problems that require complex solutions. Some worked others failed. Some problems have been fixed and other problems and situations arose that have compounded the dynamics involved in finding permanent remedies. When wealth is taken out of circulation and simply vanishes there are consequences. We are living with the consequences. We will recover but it will take many many years. Agree or disagree it's how I see it. The difference between you and I is that I understand not everything will work and look to expert opinions in these matters for that understanding. Not bloggers Kirk. To that extent take my opinion for what it is, an opinion. Not looking for an argument here maybe another time though. : )

say what jody....

If those teachers, fire fighters and police officers were rehired, the budget defict is reduced. Each of those jobs creates another 6 jobs which again reduces the budget defitic; and those jobs create more jobs

sounds suspiciously like you are saying that trickle down economics works! Lmao! do your fellow libs know?

Regardless, obama is not creating the jobs, just keeping them. What about all those millions who don't have jobs? Seems that obama needs to get his priorities right on getting the unemployed and long term une,mployed jobs first, rather than just saving existing jobs.

Thanks Dont Carry it All--We might not be so different. There is nothing you said I disagree with for the most part except I do understand the magnitude. I am living it every single day. But that doesnt mean that past historical means of lifting the economy out of recession wouldnt have worked here too. I am afraid the deleveraging could go on for quite awhile at least in areas like mine that are so underwater that there isnt a way out. I am concerned about my mom and sisters teacher pensions here in Illinois because its a financial impossibility that the state can pay all of its current promised union benefits. Thats not politics thats financial reality and I dont blame the unions for accepting what the politicians wanted to give them no different than any job. But its going to be a difficult road out. I dont come here looking for answers but perspective. I am personally far worse off than I was in 2008 so I get it. I used to participate in a university blog that eventually was shut down but it was far more intellectual and civil than this. There were huge at times differences of opinions but the personal attacks on people, candidates or posters wasnt permitted and I felt I learned alot of different perspectives and why. I came here to see why people arent fiscal conservatives which is how virtually anyone raised in small town midwest is taught. The values and expectations that I was raised with are so vastly different than the ones you see as I moved to Chicago. So I am not looking for answers as much as learning how to step in other people's shoes to understand personal experiences and why people feel the way they do. Your right this blog isnt conducive to that as its more about posturing and sermonizing to your crew than any intellectual debate. Although it does happen from time to time. It would be easier if the topics were discussed without a care who advocates them from a political candidate's perspective. For example, the individual mandate is now something the GOP is against when they were historically for it. Flat or Progressive tax impacts on revenue and economic growth could be debated without partisan rancor about who supports what. You get what I mean.

So lets assume that I agree with your post about the magnitude of the recession and that some actions worked and some didnt. Are you saying that basically it didnt matter who was president and that we would be in the same place we are today if McCain was president but with Obama the social policy actions are going to create more long term benefits that you support? When you say wealth taken out of the system but most people on this blog support even more wealth being taken out of the system to help the economy which seems counterintuitive to your argument. Your opinion is much more reasoned and civil opinion than I get from others so I appreciate it. Nothing you said to me was looking for an argument.

oh boy rpuplicants, I still see that you can't frame an argument or make a point. But you sure do like to say jr and ideological and pretty much anything that you refuse to back up. I guess it must be your liberal arts education (if you indeed have an education beyond k-12) that lets us be entertained by your lack of thinking ability. Do carry on junior, we conservatives do appreciate the laughs that you and other libs provide us.

To bad you couldn't carry on a debate along the lines of anna molly, david walker, johnA, yellowdog mark, ira lapine and a few, very few other lib posters.

Please do try to stay in the game junior.

interesting that the libs want to stick with the number of jobs the AJA will create in the next twelve months as being in the neighbor hood of 1.9 million..

The consensus of at least 28 economists is that the jobs created will likely be an average of 275K.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-28/obama-jobs-plan-prevents-2012-recession-in-survey-of-economists.html

seems like quite a disconnect here considering what the data from the US dept of labors monthly jobs report says from around sept 2009 to early 1st qtr 2011.

The real bottom line is whether government can really create private sector jobs or just carry on retaining public sector jobs at the private sector expense.

Backhouse,

So if you are such a firm believer in poll numbers then you also wish Obamacare repealed. After all, the majority are for its repeal. As a matter of fact , the majority were against it when BHO rammed it through.

The reason the poll numbers are skewed is the question. If you poll random people if they are for "The American Jobs act", what do you expect them to say? If you picked the same bill and named it "American destroy jobs act" what do you think they will say?

There is a percentage that have no idea the contents of this garbage legislation. Just as they have no idea that people hired willbe temporary as the funding is only for 1 year.

So these number mean nothing to me as I am convinced the average person answering these polls could not tell you what is in it. But by default will say they are for it simply because of the name or because BHO said it would help. They have not gotten used to the fact that every statement is a lie.

As far as the numbers wanting to raise taxes on the rich, that should go without saying. Of course people will be for it as you are proposing raising taxes on someone other than them. Given the OWS crowd who seem to want someone else to pay for everything, this number does not shock me. It still does not make it right.

And I do tell all that will listen that they are wrong. In addition, I point out why they are wrong.

And I would tell these teachers, firefighters and policemen that are out of work that if they are in a field that is so litttle in demand and glutted with excess workers that they need to examine a different profession. That is what I would do in their position.

ABO 2012

Check on your source for very big whoppers.

For $9.99, I will tell you what is common knowledge.

On the pretext of budget cuts Republican Governors like Kasich, Scott, Walker cut $$Billions from Education and shifted that money to tax breaks from the wealthy. That is common knowledge.

There was a shortage of teachers, police and firefighters in my state and around the country on a good day, even before Republican governors cut 600,000 government jobs.

When the component parts are explained about American Jobs Act: 60-70% of Americans from both sides of the aisle are for it.

Same thing for the Health Care Reform Act. This is not news. It is old news.

Now run away and do your homework like a good lad.

backhouse common knowledge also state that when state and local governments do not have the funding available to meet government payrolls, layoffs are the result.

Retaining government workers shrinks the pie, providing incentives to grow the private sector increases the pie. I would hardly say that with our present world ranking in the effectiveness of our k-12 education system retaining teachers should be a priority. An argument may be made for the protective services but those desicions should be left to the local governments invilved. That is common knowledge.

If we do not rank high in the world for teachers as you point out, why fire hundreds of thousands of teachers?

The reasons we are ranked low globally in school Education include: class size to high, not enough teachers, low pay reduces incentive for best and brightest to become teachers.

The fact is Republican Governors like Walker, Kasich, Scott, cut $Billions from Education and openly shifted those $Billions to wealthy corporations in their states.

Kirk -- Just a few more points I will make to counter your view. Where your argument loses merit is failing to connect de-leveraging, the bulk of which is tied to real estate, to the fiscal budget mess of local governments and states. When the wealth disappeared states and local governments lost a very real stream of revenue. Their budgets were blown out. You criticize this administration for allowing both states and local municipalities the discretion to use stimulus monies to plug the massive leaks in their budgets as a direct result of circumstances beyond their control. It worked to a degree and again mitigated the compound effect. The same applies to our local schools. Depending on where you live property taxes are a revenue stream for school districts so the same understanding should be afforded to them under those circumstances. In both these scenario's jobs were saved, budgets were supported and bills got paid. Do not trivialize this with silly arguments about unions and pensions as these things did not produce the bubble in housing, Congress, Wall Street and Banks did that. Blame them. You are using your dislike of unions in an effort to deflect. I call BS here Kirk.

Do I think the situation would have been different if McCain had won? If I recall he thought the economy was doing just fine. So I would argue we would be worse off today as you have to acknowledge a problem before you can fix it. He failed to do that.

You misunderstand my comment on bloggers. My point is I read and listen to all experts on the economy and issues relating to the world today. That is where I gain an understanding of what is happening. I come here to share my perspective after having formed an opinion. I enjoy interacting with people on this blog and appreciate the different perspectives voiced here. I like that it is diverse and sometimes humorous. ; ) I am open to debate on my perspective as I am not an ideologue. Ideologues are unable to change when circumstances change. And in my opinion they lack the ability to reason even when reality demands it. Yuck!

Another argument you presented to someone else is on the issue of how a question is asked in a poll. Here I agree to the extent that this can be an argument used by both sides. These are snapshots of a moment and subject to change in the next.

From my perspective your argument to John on foreclosures is misplaced in that it is the banks and institutions holding up the process. My guess is that it takes a long time (years) to take advantage of socializing the losses. Below is a link to a recent speech by Volcker, a man who makes sense and speaks truth as opposed to the lies some prefer to promote concerning what actually happened during his words, the "Great Recession". He has some very good ideas on how to prevent this from ever happening again. Till next time.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/business/23gret.pdf

Back house, John b always says don't make statements without proven facts and it's obvious you can't. If you can't prove your obvious lies then don't bother. Teachers are not being fired in fact they expect a 5 percent hiring increase next year so you haven't proved your partisan talking points

DCIA-first I am in the real estate business so I understand the deleveraging and the foreclosure and bankruptcy process in more detail than I really want ha. Trust me it's not the banks but the borrowers in both residential and commercial real estate. The Obama administration has intentionally slowed the process down initially to prevent the huge local and regional bank crisis that was unfolding after the large bank bailout. The problem was they thought that approach that worked initially would continue to work and all it's done is take the band aid off slowly and prevent the market from recovering now. As for unions, I am definitely not anti union as I have a wife, mom and sister in them but have also seen in first hand experience e abuses. But that's not my point as I have no issue with private unions just the cronyism with public sector unions. As for silliness on the stimulus, at least here in Illinois i gave you exactly what happened in my town because I was part of the group who actually did what I said. States and localities were under budget crunches including huge unfunded union obligations. We reallocated funds already earmarked for street repair to accept stimulus money and used the reallocated money to pay unfunded union benefits. S did everywhere else in Illinois which is why so very few jobs were created in Illinois.

I am not trivializing the stimulus because I never said it did nothing. My points were the money was spent ineffectively and efficiently because this administration feels that government spending and social policy initiatives are more important than stimulating the private sector. I appreciate your points and I don't disagree with your causes and issues but you didn't address the fundamental questions I am asking which whther a more traditional approach to this recession would have brought economic growth versus the Obama approach.

Kirk -- You blame borrowers for what? Explain in detail how the current President has slowed down the process, please.

If your local government had unfunded benefit obligations that is not the fault of public unions. That is the fault of poor planning and the failure of boards or management to negotiate with a long term view. In fact most probably have no 30 year+ budget outlook at all. As for cronyism in public sector positions I whole hardily agree but the cronies are the non-union appointees and elected officials not the average union worker.

As for your question on whether a more traditional approach would have worked? No NO NO. It was not a standard recession nor a mild recession it was a "Great Recession". In other words this wasn't a minor scratch that required a band-aid. No opinion on Volcker's views and approaches to fixing the mess? BTW- They stimulated the private sector with the bank bailouts. Now small business has a hand out as well as any other business they feeds at the government trough.

It all makes sense, Dcia. Kirk has stated within the last week that his business is as a corporate consultant in the area of finance. Now he says he's in the real estate business. Reading between the lines it's apparent that would make him a consultant to the banking industry, which would have a lot to gain by accelerating the seizure of property from home owners who've been hit hard by the recession. It would also be a part of his business to help his corporate clients protect themselves from taking responsibility for liar loans and other predatory practices which precipitated the Great Recession.

No wonder he has so much trouble understanding the frustrations expressed by ordinary Americans in the OWS protests.

John -- Funny! Not sure where this guy works as I was lead to believe it was running Hallmark shops for his dad. Now real estate, a council position and possibly consultant....hmmmm...something doesn't add up!

Did you like the name Volcker coined for the crisis "Great Recession"? I loved that as it was so apropos.

GOP just voted No twice,

to hundreds of thousands of teachers being hired/rehired as well as police, firefighters and veterans,

when they voted 100% against the American Jobs Act twice,

in favor of the top income 1.01%,

so they could avoid paying a fraction of a percentage point on taxes.

I wish this were not true.

But it is true.

I wish we weren't ranked so low globally on teachers, firing hundreds of thousands while countries like Korea are hiring like crazy to compete with the US and win the future,

I wish the newly elected Republican Governors had not cut $Billions to Education, seniors and the poor and shifted that money to wealthy corporations in their states,

But it is all true.

Vice President Joseph Biden heralded the Energy Department’s $529 million loan to the start-up electric car company called Fisker as a bright new path to thousands of American manufacturing jobs. But two years after the loan was announced, the job of assembling the flashy electric Fisker Karma sports car has been outsourced to Finland.

Yet another example of the corporate cronyism the Democrats practice and blame the Republicans for. Why aren't the unions screaming foul on this one? Where are the Wall Street protesters? Funny how that works.

Ha, DCIA and John, thanks for the nastiness as I dont remember ever personally attacking either of you in terms of personal experience and knowledge. DCIA, I dont have anything to do with my Dad's hallmark stores but I grew up working in them. If you must know my background and why it seems confusing I started out as a lawyer in a big firm in chicago. I also have a CPA but never practiced because I was an accounting major in college. Left the law firm and worked in house for 10. Left and worked for a family office as an M&A lawyer and became CFO of one of the businesses the family owned. Left several years ago with my boss and third partner in NY to form a small business investing in real estate. Yes, I am on the local finance commission in my village. What part of this doesnt add up for you guys? John B, I have no corporate clients and dont consult at all but as CFO and now as a borrower, I deal with the banks and private equity firms all the time. There definitely are some bad apples but they are the exception not the rule. John B, dont act like you are talking for the frustrations of the disadvantaged as if you are some arm chair quarterback. You love to use the exception as your talking point without have any real life knowledge or experience. All I have tried to provide you is with real life experience but of course that doesnt fit your personal inexperienced views.

DCIA--for the most part I am not sure why you are getting somewhat belligerent with me as I have never attacked you. Do you really want to know the answers to these questions or just want to fight with me? I couldnt agree with you more that the blame for the unfunded union obligations is not the fault of the union members at all. Its the fault here in Illinois with the democratic state legislators and some of the local officials although its state mandates that cause the problem not the local negotiations. But its not a matter whose fault at this point, its that the fiscal problem cant be fixed with putting your head in the sand and not addressing the fact that those promises that were made cant be paid. Its just math at least here in Illinois. As for Volker, I generally like him and I have no problem with this recession being called the Great Recession but that has nothing to do with my questions nor many economists and other views on how to address it. The severity of the drop doesnt mean we need to change the approach or whether Obama's policies have made things worse, stable or better. I never said that all of the things he has done were failures or that some didnt have positive impact and I think that was pretty evident from my post. You accuse me of not addressing your one question while you both always ignore any of the facts or questions I pose that dont fit your political view on this.

As for slowing down the process, I guess I am surprised that this is something neither of you are aware of. Its written about in the WSJ and economists talk about it all the time in addition to the banks freeze on foreclosures because of their failed robo foreclosure process. First, when the banks started having troubles in 2008 and 9 and when local and regional banks followed suit, bank examiners and the FDIC provided several measures of relief in the real estate area. They allowed the banks to classify their troubled loans in different categories and allowed them to not have to write down loans on real estate that were current pay (the underlying real estate value could have gone down a lot but as long as borrower was paying you could keep loan at face value). This was huge because interest rates were so low, many loans were worth far less but borrowers not wanting to be foreclosed or lose their asset continued to pay low interest hoping the economy would come back prior to the loan matured. In many cases there were defaults on the loans just not interest rate defaults and banks were incented to not push foreclosure because they could inaccurately keep the asset on thier books at face value. In the bad loans in which either interest was not getting paid etc, banks were allowed huge extensions on the time periods in which they needed to sell the loan, foreclose etc to remove the bad asset from their books. This was probably the hardest on the real estate industry because banks are notoriously bad negotiators and bad owners of assets. The best thing Obama could have done was to make the banks sell these loans to real estate experts, funds etc which could have worked through the mess and rationalized economically these loans. (And John this means modify the loans too where it makes sense with the borrower, accelerating the process doesnt mean someone would lose their house it means the economic rationality of the loan would take place much faster and better by experts). Banks, nor funds want to own the real estate or house as everyone would prefer that the borrower pay but you have to make those decisions very quickly. Here in Illinois the foreclosure process is now over 500 days which all economists say is bad for the market.

Kirk -- Maybe it was frustration coming out in my posts. Thanks for explaining your thoughts behind the slow down of cleaning up the housing mess. From your perspective of course you would have liked things to play out differently. From my perspective it should have never gotten to the point of a bubble. Many had a hand in creating it. Now we all bear the burden of their unscrupulous follies in my opinion. Expect many years of stagnation in housing and hopefully some will be helped with today's initiative. My feeling is in a year or so after seeing what's left of the mess on books the banks will be finished with the write downs and things will wind down quickly to an end. Besides the interest rate policy will be expiring at about the same time. Coincidence?

Another great "And that's the way it is".....this week" Jody.

Wonder if Issa can tear himself away from searching for White House scandal long enough to investigate the ever-greedy banks stealing from veterans and taxpayers illegally.

Highly unlikely. Issa, and the rest of the GOTP has no interest in doing the peoples work. He and the rest of the Corporate Rump Kissers are just another rubber stamp for Wall Street.

Jody:

Wow, I love your recaps. I just can't help but wonder how do these damned RINO's keep their heads from exploding. Canning the CLASS portion of ACA was precisely what a wise business person would do. It's financially unsound. Get rid of it. Really? Get rid of it? Very bad. Keep it? Very bad.

Khadaffy? Son of one gun. The RINO's knew it wouldn't work. See! Khadaffy's dead. Toldja it wouldn't work.

Again and again, I ask myself how anyone could support the Republican ship of fools.

Jody, great review of the week as always.

I would add the cover of the latest NewYorker magazine. It is an ICON FOR OUR TIMES.

It is titled: The Book of Life Steve Jobs, St. Peter, ipad......

The Santa Cruz Bank of America called 9-1-1 for assistance. Some customers tried to close their accounts while wearing signs saying that. B of A refused and called the police; an official said "you can't be a customer and a protester at the same time." Who knew that rule?

That's the "Double Secret Probation" rule.

New Gingrich called Romney a "Nelson Rockefeller republican" who will have a hard time appealing to the GOP base. Ha, Ronald Reagan would have a hard time appealing to today's GOP base!

Ain't that the truth! This current crop of the GOP couldn't find a compromise with the Dems if it was staring them in the face. Forget about putting our differences aside and find common ground so we can get our country back on track.

Democratic Representative Bruce Braley has called for an investigation of allegations that Wall Street banks have been bilking veterans and taxpayers out of millions by disguising illegal fees in veterans financial loans. Wonder if Issa can tear himself away from searching for White House scandal long enough to investigate the ever-greedy banks stealing from veterans and taxpayers illegally.

C'mon Jody, did you learn NOTHING from yesterday's exchange with FR Conservatives? Opposition to banks stealing from veterans would interfere with their RIGHT to help us all by lining their own pockets!

Great wrap up as always.

Man was Big Ed's show great last night or what?

Poor Ed, old Cornell West really confounded him. Seems Dr. West is not a fan of Obama's failure to lead.

When you have lost someone like Dr. West, you have huge problems.

And poor Ed - all he could do was cut the Dr. off and go to a commercial.

Can't wait to have a man of Ed's mental status on at 8:00. Should do wonders for the old rating, eh gang?

Canning the CLASS portion of ACA was precisely what a wise business person would do. It's financially unsound. Get rid of it. Really? Get rid of it? Very bad. Keep it? Very bad.

No a wise business person would have looked at the figures for the whole frikken mess in 2010 and said "This is a fiscal joke with projections that are fairy tales" and thrown the whole thing in the trash. He would then ask his staff to come up with feasible proposals that use realistic financial projections based on what we can afford rather than what we would like.

Jody and John -- I had just highlighted and copied the exact quote John did! Ditto to what John says Jody! Something I missed and will look further into. Thanks.

Feisty:

You almost changed my mind. You must call him some sort of name before I can change my vote. It's always nice when you call his wife a name too. Very impressive.

Every week, the GOP is the gift that keeps on giving. Thanks for the kind words and for adding to it.

"Double Secret Probation" rule, good one, devie!

John B, nope, there's no way Issa will do what needs doing; his agenda aligns with McConnell's, "get Obama" and to heck with anything important like our veterans being bilked by Wall Street, the same ones whose greed destroyed the economy.

Beautiful C&P job...

I learned this week that President Obama is going to win re-election, because the American People are seeing this dysfunctional radical right, for what they are.

I have no objection to the banks being investigated for charging illegal fees, in fact I'm all for it, but why would Issa's committee be the one to do it? Doesn't he chair the "House Oversight and Government Reform" committee?

I think you should be railing on Tim Johnson (D-SD) and Spenser Bachus (R-Al). I did a quick check of their calendars and no hearing have been scheduled.

Jody,

Excellent as always; but this one made me laugh:

Rick Perry got 9-9-9 right; he said it is a "big tax increase on many people who can least afford it". Good call Gov Perry....until he said he'd be releasing his flat tax plan next week. 10-10-10?

The scene in There's Something about Mary where the serial killer says he's come up with the seven minute abs,...because it's better than the eight minute abs,...

Seven's the key number here.
Think about it.

I see another Republican troll has decided to immitate Feisty. I guess it IS the sincerest form of flattery; but it just reiterates the point that these folks aren't terribly original or innovative. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is a Re-Reg of some bitter, lost soul,...

Priceless.

Happy Friday, all. Headed to Norman for friends and football this weekend. Will hit the Dew Drop next week. Keep the light on!

Here is what else happened this week-

The Misery Index, composed of the unemployment rate added to the inflation rate, rose to the highest level since 1983-13%
When you consider that the civilian labor force is at its lowest level since that same year, and if those people were added back, unemployment would be 20%, the Misery index would be 23.9%, (which Jimmy Carter never managed to 'achieve'), you have to wonder just exactly how stuck on stupid a person would have to be to even consider reflecting Obama.

Speaking of stuck on stupid, Obama informed us that he had made "all the right choices" in dealing with the economy, but "it still is not where it wants to be". Based on those statements, one could surmise that Obama is now blaming the economy for spoiling his plans for helping the economy.

Still speaking of stuck on stupid, Harry Reid informed the nation that the private sector is creating plenty of jobs- only the public sector is suffering. The only prescription, it seems, is Obama's "Bucks for Bureaucrats" plan, which is a major component of his Dollars for Donors initiative. Unions, after all, give a lot of money to campaigns- democratic campaigns- and there is an election coming up. Fork over, taxpayers!

Then, we have Biden. To say he is stuck on stupid is about as informative as saying the sun rises in the east. Biden did not just state, but screamed, that if Bucks for Bureaucrats did not pass, the people of Flint, Michigan would all be raped and murdered. One hopes that the Chamber of Commerce of that city was not about to embark on a campaign to lure tourists to its parks, museums, and golf courses.

Obama invoked executive privilege to withhold the emails on his Blackberry from the committee investigating the Solyndra debacle. His reasoning? "It's MY Blackberry. I won't share it. If you want one, get your own!"

A federal court will now order him to hand them over, so they will come to light sometime next year. Maybe in October.

Obama took the bus out of mothballs and went on a campaign trip through North Carolina and Virginia this week, which we, the taxpayer, paid for because he said it was not a campaign trip. The result of all this campaigning? His approval ratings dropped. It would save the taxpayers a lot of money, and not harm his already dim chances for reelection,mic he just stayed in D.C. Every time he goes off on a campaign trip, his ratings DROP. See last fall - see this fall- then project where he'll be NEXT fall.

Ah, well. Florida got much needed rain- all at once, unfortunately. I've spent two days on planes, planes, and automobiles, getting to Key West. Things are getting back to normal here, so the trip back should not be a two day ordeal.

Oh, by the way- either Feisty got sense, or somebody cloned her name again. I betting on the latter. . .

I learned this week that BHO will continue to have a hard time demonizing the GOP unless he can at least get all the players in his own party to support his new spending bill.

And that seems less likely with every vote. They wont even support pieces of it.

What a leader. Or did he put out a POS bill knowing it would not pass in order to have a current event to talk about rather than his record?

ABO 2012

Jody, as always, a great recap. Thanks and keep them coming. And one more thing reemphasized this week, the GOP/TP party are just plain neurotic. On the one hand, they 99.999999% support the Norquist "no taxes" pledge, yet in the debate this week, they all howled about the 47% that don't pay federal income tax. Bachman goes on record saying everyone must pay taxes, yet the idiot savant doesn't support any tax increases. Which is it folks? Do you support tax increases on the 47% or do you support NO tax increases. Get your message clear!!!!!!

Thanks Alan NJ -- Maybe we all should call their respective offices and demand this be put on the schedule.

Thanks Jody, this about sums it up. Another week displaying Potus leadership on the world scale and followed up by ignorance and ill-contained jealous hate in the GOP sandbox. The contrast remains to be staggering.

Oh, Looky, Tyler figured it out:

Don't Give me the Penguin loves Feisty so MUCH he wants to BE Feisty,...

http://world-news.newsvine.com/_news/2011/10/21/8426617-occupy-protesters-find-allies-in-ranks-of-the-wealthy?threadId=3251144&commentId=59199724#c59199724

I stand with my Lib friends and say:

ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!

Great post, IR. Anything to protect the rich in their zeal to replace the American Way with a new vision of Anarcho-Capitalism, one in which the USA becomes an unending series of Pottervilles, with Hoovervilles for anyone who can't make the grade.

IR, terrific post. It is a good idea. The stock market is being used not for investment but for quick gains. Saw an interview with some guy this week who has no job but sits all day at the computer, buys stocks, and sells them in 15 minutes or less to take the profit. There's nothing wrong with profit taking but it is a driver in the wild ups and downs.

State and federal sales taxes have increased over the years as a result of constant GOP drum beat to lower income taxes and too many voters do not look at the ramifications beyond the idea that lower income taxes sounds good. Local governments add option sales taxes to cover the shortfalls just to keep fire, police and teachers on the job, just to pay for filling potholes and ordinary maintenance of towns and cities. Sales taxes are regressive and sadly, as the article and IR pointed out, affect those with the least the most.

Someone in the Register had a good idea, Jody. 95% captial gains tax on SHORT TERM captial gains. SHORT TERM being gains realized, say, within one week or less.

drive-by-observer:

I believe a punitive short-terms gain of that magnitude is a very bad idea. Imagine some poor devil who wants to invest long-term and buys Stock XYZ. For some reason, the stock moves up two points in the next four days. Unfortunately, he is hit with a terrible emergency. Who knows what? He cashes out with a gain and a horrible penalty. I'm sure I could come up with other scenarios. You have to try to think of unintended consequences in this instance.

I simply don't think it is a good idea to use tax policy as a bludgeon.

However, a transaction tax - this idea has a number of names - would have a stabilizing effect on the market. Traders who move massive blocks of stock in nanoseconds to capitalize on a very tiny gain literally wring out any profit in the market. There is no real wealth created in these transactions. A transaction tax would tend to move investors to look at the value of the company rather than the value of a stock. That may sound counter intuitive, but the fact is it the stocks themselves have an arbitrary value independent of the company it supposedly represents.

The stock market should not be viewed as some sort of game. It should be returned to its proper role as a genuine capital market.

Notice how the narrative above ignores the multiplier effect of wages earned by public workers and contractors hired by the public sector. Notice how it treats public workers as parasites rather than average Americans.

Riddle me this, Batman, how is it that money paid to a private security guard adds to the economy, but money paid to a policeman subtracts from it? How does money paid to teachers at private schools add to the economy, while money paid to public school teachers subtracts from it?

Congratulations Conservatives, you've proven that you have it within your power to deny funding for police, firefighters, and teachers...

...and America continues to suffer.

He knew from the outset his "jobs bill" had no chance of passing but he pushed it anyway for the sole purpose of giving himself a political cudgel to beat up Republicans.

Republicans play their part perfectly don't they Bill, I hope he drops a bill a week on them, it's working for him, because more and more people are deciding that it is not Obama who is sad and pathethic. Dems just raised twice the cash as did republicans, Welcome to Waterloo Bill.

Good observation, Forrest. The "he knew it didn't have a chance of passage" narrative is a neat one, NEARLY side-stepping WHY "he knew." Barack Obama "knows" his proposals won't pass because the radical Conservatives of the GOPTP make it a point to block ANYTHING that might show him some level of success...even though it means real harm to average Americans.

It's a great attempt by Republicans to spin a negative into a positive, but the barely visible approval ratings of the Republican Party and Congress in general show the American people aren't fooled.

Notice how the narrative above ignores the multiplier effect of wages earned by public workers and contractors hired by the public sector.

Ah yes, the mythical Keynsian multiplier. Government spending will supposedly be multiplied by some factor sufficient to create enough activity to nudge the economy onto a self-sustaining growth path. But that has demonstrably not happened with Obama's previous fiscal stimulus program -- almost a trillion dollars in deficit spending has given us an economy today that is barely in positive territory. The left can parse the data any which way they want to try and support their narrative, but at the end of the day there can be no dispute that GDP growth today is anemic. So if the massive Obama stimulus didn't work, why should anyone believe that another "jobs bill" will do the trick? The answer is no one should believe it because government doesn't create sustainable jobs, the private sector does.

Notice how it treats public workers as parasites rather than average Americans.

So riddle me this, Einstein. Why are public sector workers always first in line for the government's Keynsian handouts? Since the meltdown, private sector job losses have dwarfed public sector losses. But Obama showers state and local governments with dollars to pacify the union buds he will need if he has any hope of being re-elected.

how is it that money paid to a private security guard adds to the economy, but money paid to a policeman subtracts from it? How does money paid to teachers at private schools add to the economy, while money paid to public school teachers subtracts from it?

Duhhh, what does that have to do with anything I actually said? Thanks ever so much for making up an argument I never advanced. So typical of the leftist attack dogs on this board..

Nice try, Bill Fairfax, but it is no sale.

Forrest Grump, ditto what John B said. Mitch McConnell claims President Obama is "out of touch" and not listening to the American people but it is obvious that it is the GOP which is tone deaf or wearing hearing protection, ignoring that over 60% of republicans support our President's jobs plan.

Bill -- TAX CUTS also fit Keynesian theory.

Nice try, Bill Fairfax, but it is no sale.

Care to present a coherent rebuttal, or is it sufficient for the leftist crowd to just toss out a dismissive statement.

TAX CUTS also fit Keynesian theory.

Actually, tax cuts are more consistent with supply side theory. In the Keynsian view, tax cuts are just more dollars that will be spent and amplified by some fictitious multiplier. From the supply side perspective, tax cuts get to the heart of creating incentives for producers to produce more and for earners to earn more -- both of which are fundamental to sustained economic growth.

Bill -- Disagree. Our tax code system in general fit the Keynesian theory and anytime you use to as a stimulative measure it validates the principles behind the theory.

You ignore Bill who is enacting that stimulative. Not the private sector.

Our tax code system in general fit the Keynesian theory and anytime you use to as a stimulative measure it validates the principles behind the theory.

No. Tax cuts "validate" Keynsian theory only if you believe that putting more dollars into people's pockets will result in those dollars being spent in a way that multiplies the impact of each dollar and thereby generates economic growth beyond the level of the cut -- an effect we have yet to see in any appreciable fashion in the stimulus enacted since the meltdown. Supply siders on the other hand believe the greater impact of tax cuts is on the incentives of the producers and earners who actually create wealth and drive ecponomic growth. You can embrace Keynsian theory if you like, but arguing that out tax code is somehow a validation of its precepts is a stretch.

You ignore Bill who is enacting that stimulative. Not the private sector.

No I'm not ignoring that at all, obviously it's the government that does the taxing and therefore only the government can do the tax cutting. The issue is the differences in philosophies between the two parties in how to use that power: Dems prefer to increase taxes so folks can pay their "fair share" and Republicans prefer to reduce taxes as much as possible to let folks keep more of what they earn.

Bill, I'm not the one declaring against decades of economic theory and practical experience that all government spending is parasitic to the economy.

It's your role to prove it. I just called BS on your BS.

Bill, I'm not the one declaring against decades of economic theory and practical experience that all government spending is parasitic to the economy.

It's your role to prove it. I just called BS on your BS.

There you go again. When you can't refute an argument I did advance, you make up an argument I didn't advance to suit your own narrative. Just like the attack dogs around here are wont to do. So if anyone is shoveling BS it's you, carry on.

BTW, if the "decades of economic theory" you cite includes the basic Paul Samuelson textbook foisted on countless numbers of unsuspecting economics students, I plead guilty to throwing it away a long time ago.

Here's your argument;

So there is no net job creation and the end result is no different from rearranging the deck chairs on a sinking ship. By contrast, in the private sector economy free citizens determine economic winners by their dollar votes, dollar votes which in turn enable the jobs created by those winners to be sustained and thereby support an enduring prosperity for all of us.

You said in that excerpt that government doesn't create jobs, it just siphons jobs out of the free market. Further, you said jobs funded through government are transitory, while the same money creates permanent jobs if it's spent in the private sector.

It's your argument, prove it.

So are you saying that this report is a trend?

Wisconsin has been sucked into the big picture AM. Just like most states. As long as the Obama Administration continues it's attack on Private enterprise, this will not get any better.

Over 400,000 again last week. Now that's a trend we can believe in.

Take it up with no joe, JoAnna, and Spanky, WCA.

They were the ones crowing after June's numbers. And Walker was the one trying to take credit for the creation of seasonal jobs in the tourist industry, as if THAT was some kind of trend.

But keep trying.

It's so much fun to watch you conservatives dance.

Isn't it, AM. That would be the trend that took a decided turn downward once Tea Partiers took control of governors mansions, state legislatures, and the US House of Representatives, by the way.

Conservative economic theories...proven to fail for over a generation.

Sen. McConnell: "Knock, knock!"

President Obama: "Who's there?"

Sen. McConnell: "Fil."

President Obama: "Fil who?"

Sen. McConnell: "Filibuster!"

UAW Pleeeeeeeease:

Wow Obama's jobs bill aka the gift to the public teacher and fire fighter unions

Just goes to show you, doesn't it, how much outlook makes a difference.

I'm used to thinking of teachers and firefighters and police officers and snow plowers and sewer workers being the gifts we give ourselves.

You seem to have forgotten that.

Just wait till you need one, and they're no longer there.

Two dems voted against, republicans were unamiously against it, again they play it perfectly for Obama, and democrats, you know how I can tell, dems just raised twice the cash as republicans.

Just wait till you need one, and they're no longer there.

Nah, it'll be someone else's fault when his house burns down and all his relatives grow up stupid.

Oh for God sakes people. 95% of the firemen in this country are volenteers. They do it for free. It's the good samaritan nature of Americans that makes that possible. It didnt become a shake down of the American tax payer until the unions came along with these ridiculous pay and retirement benifits that our politicians agreed to in exchange for union votes. Thankfully we elected some politicians in 2010 who took the side of the American tax payer....

Where is it published that 95% of firemen are volunteers? Why don't you take your argument of unionization to the NYFD, you know, those brave folks that risked and lost on 9/11. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeease!!!!!

Good samaritan? Republicans don't know the meaning of the words.

Oh Come on Red, Volenteer firemen along with alot of other good Samaritins were killed at the world trade center and Pentagon that day as well. The point is they do that work w/o the gaurentee of of the equivilent of a millioniares pension at the age of 50. Google "Volenteer Firefighter killed" you will come up with about 100 pages of brave men who risked it all for pat on the back. There is no need to over pay for government services just because the Union says they will support your election campaign....

Fielden, I would politely disagree. Republicans DO understand the meaning of good samaritan. It means service for free as long as someone else is the samaritan. Notice, UAW doesn't think firemen should receive any sort of compensation when they are killed in the line of duty. A pat on the back seems sufficient.

And UAW .. I dare say firemen and other unionized workers do not receive a millionaires equivilant pension. But then, reality can be stretched far and wide, as evidenced by your other claims (95% firefighters are volunteers sound familiar?).

If the Democrats controlled the Senate, as many have proclaimed, there would never have to be a vote to just discuss the bill. When the Democrats get 60 seats in the Senate, then you can claim they control the Senate.

Until then, learn the Senate rules and current party delegations.

Come on Red. Come on board with tax payers. Following from the NY Daily News.....

Take current NY city firefighters, for example. They are entitled to retire after 20 years of service at half pay, with their overtime included in that calculation. In 2006, the last year for which data are available, the pension benefit for a newly retired firefighter averaged just under $73,000 annually. On top of that, many get another $12,000 every December as a "Christmas bonus" to bring the annual cash total to $85,000 - all of which is exempt from state and local income taxes.

The cash is supplemented by a free comprehensive health insurance policy for the retiree and his or her spouse; that policy is worth about another $10,000, bringing the total tax-free benefits for each recent retiree to $95,000.

Since most of these men and women start their careers in their 20s, they are retiring in their 40s - and collecting the benefits for as much as another 40 years, a whopping $3.8 million in retiree pension and benefits per retiree. And there are no restrictions on how much additional they can earn at subsequent jobs during their "retirement."

Right now, New Yorkers are paying for two Fire Departments: an active department of 11,550 firefighters and a retired department of 17,480 former firefighters. The cost to taxpayers of those retirees now totals $1.1 billion a year.

Which is it, UAW...is the NYFD volunteer as you implied above or overpaid as you also implied above.

I realize it's normal for Conservatives to run multiple, contradictory narratives on the same topic, but you should at least try not to run them on the same thread.

Conservatism isn't about thought or principle, it's a series of narratives intended to sell policies beneficial to the rich.

Boy, I hope UAW never finds out what SERVICE People get for retirement. He's gonna' be pissed at our military,...

Sheesh,...How many people have served 20 years and gone on to other careers and retired from them, too?

John McCain, anyone, anyone?

Sorry to confuse you John. No what I said was ther were volenteers killed in NY on 9/11 as well as volenteer firemen killed thru out history around the country. As a tax payer It's not fair that we pay Union Firemen such a crazy amount of money in salary and benifits for a job alot of volenteers do for free. Have you ever wondered why so many "conservatives" are rich? It comes from making good decsions for yourself.....

I dare you to find volunteers in highly populated regions. This is absurd. Every single day a New York Firefighter goes to work they face risk.

Volunteer firefighters in LaCygne, KS see action maybe twice a year,...

Good grief. Here's a quarter, UAW, buy a clue.

That's funny Clara! :) Maybe the Military needs to join AFCME too! LOL

Clara maybe NY could get a few of the 17,480 retired firefighters to "volenteer"........ :)~

Right now, New Yorkers are paying for two Fire Departments: an active department of 11,550 firefighters and a retired department of 17,480 former firefighters. The cost to taxpayers of those retirees now totals $1.1 billion a year.

And what's your point, UAW? The management of NYC negotiated those contracts over DECADES. Do we renege on those contracts now because lower taxes are more important than honoring contracts? If so, wouldn't the firefighters have wanted to be paid more so they could save for their own retirements? Why are these contracts that we can discard at a whim? Why not do the same with other contracts? Why not just refuse to pay for insurance or power and gas? Maybe the city should just refuse to pay contractors for work done?

One reason and one only...the ONLY contracts Conservatives ever treat this lightly are money due regular, working Americans. Money due to corporations is holy and cannot be touched.

Hmmmm John B, Interesting point on disregarding contracts. I'm sure the Pre-Obama GM bond holders are asking themselves that vary question. How did the UAW end up owning the shares of GM that the Bondholders had as collateral in thier contracts??? Maybe if they called themselves the United Bond Holders the UBH would have been treated a little fairer by the Obama Administration.....

So, you're saying you can't come up with a reason why the contract with workers is less important than other contracts. Was that so hard?

I meant to say TUESDAY's Debate - the poll was taken Wednesday! I need another cup of coffee!!

Um, Nash?

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150230/Obama-Job-Approval-Average-Slides-New-Low-11th-Quarter.aspx

People are waking up, all right- from the media induced torpor that led them to vote for someone who was too inexperienced to get hired as the assistant manager of a fast food restaurant.

I learned this week (again) that the liberals here on FR are only in favor of killing terrorists and dictators when THEIR boy is in the White House.

Bull@!$%#!

Since your BOY couldn't 'off' any of them - you'll never know...

Your BOY did manage to spend trillions, cost over 4K American lives & countless wounded...

Thanks for the reminder! ;o)

Faux Feisty

I learned this week that conservatives couldn't take out a terrorist or dictator without declaring war, donating billions to the Haliburton coffers, and expending over a hundred thousand human lives, all while claiming "mission accomplished!

What you are talking about is coercion, you give us what we want or we will not give you what you need. Another way to put this is We are not going to create one job until you get rid of Obama. Since when did this become acceptable and not a crime. Its also know has hostage taking. Business are holding jobs hostage until they get what they want. Also a crime if you do the same with a person. Hardly the american way.

Tis, We have President who got elected based on the promise of re-distributing someone elses wealth. Maybe we should take guys like Steve Wynn who own companies that still employee 90% of us at thier word and replace the president. We don't need alot just 10% who claim they want a job not an unemployment check....