Parry's pandering to the church crowd again. Sure gets old. Ok your a christian, I guess when your this far behind, one has to hope for a miracle.

OF COURSE it's OK to express your faith in the public square. It just isn't OK to try to impose your religious beliefs on others through government...which is what Perry and all the other "Cultural Conservatives are ACTUALLY trying to do.

I'm a Christian, but I'm aware that not even all Christian denominations agree with each other on a lot of things. Certainly there are a lot of other points on which Christianity differs from other religions...but other points on which Christianity agrees with other faiths...depending on which Christian denomination holds your membership.

And of course you also have a right to practice no religion at all...that's the American way. Don't be fooled by the fact that Christian Fundamentalists want to pretend they speak for all Christians. It just isn't so.

John B: you beat me to the punch and I have nothing to add to your post. Why is it the right wing cannot get that while they may have their beliefs, they may not dictate to others? There is no war on Christmas...the war is against those who celebrate other things, and have other belief systems. You may say "merry Christmas" to me. You may not demand that I return that greeting. Get it now?

Now that he's done, he goes out and gets god? How seminal of him....

I AM a christian, and his god does not speak for me!

You know, there is a few verses in the New Testament that talks about praying in private. When you do it for all to see, Jesus said it made you a hypocrite. Wonder if Gov. Perry ever read that part?

Oops, just looked below, and saw you had the same thoughts Mickey. I guess great minds and all that! :)

Okay, who told the trolls there was free fudge here tonight? They can't have any. Too much sugar for them.

How about people of other faiths, does Perry encourage them to bring their faith to the public square, how about Muslims, and Jews, and everyone else, are is this just for evangelical Christians. If a Muslim brings his faith to the public square, will he be accused of trying to force Sharia law on on the rest of society, forget the public square can a Muslim bring his faith to Lowes. Hell will be full of these phony bible thumpers, who are they trying to impress, does Tim Tebow actually think that I think Jesus Christ is worried about and involved with him and the Broncos scoring touchdowns? Did Jesus Christ lose to New England and Tom Brady today? These people demean and insult their Christian religion with this public display of "Christ in the huddle", "Christ in the red zone" "Jesus scored a touchdown" bull-crap.

That's great Rick. Hopefully that means you'll be tolerant of Muslims, etc. as they practice their faith in the public square. You wouldn't be selective in that would you ????

Jesus said spread the good news. He didn't say hide it in the basement.

Go ahead and spread, Spock - just don't try to make it into legislation! No one is saying that people can't have, and share, their beliefs. You just can't turn YOUR version of religion into laws for everyone. Geez, is that really such a difficult distinction to make?

The REAL Mr. Spock would understand the logic ;-)

If Perry wants to spread the "good news" then he should quit politics and become a preacher. He does not need the republican nomination, or superpac funds if he wants to devote his life to Jesus, and spreading the "good news" of his religion.

Our parish priest taught us to love Jesus in our hearts and actions ... how we treat others. He, and Jesus warned against those that wear their religion on their sleeves, but do not practice it in their hearts. Rick Perry and his ilk are the kind of hypocrites that Jesus threw out of the temple. Rick Perry is the anti-Christ, reveling in how many people he has executed, and how many poor people he has created with his pandering to the rich.

What would Jesus do? Would he pander to the rich and let the poor starve? Would Jesus hate the gays?

The Reverand Perry speaks.......but no one is listening, thank God.

I am no bible scholar by any stretch but it seems to me the only people Jesus had open disdain for were the rich people who did not share, everybody else he treated with charity and kindness no matter if the community felt they deserved it or not.

The likes of Perry don't understand, can't understand, have no desire to understand, and will NEVER understand. America is NOT about faith. It is for ALL faiths and lack of same... EVERYONE.

Perry would have a fit if any non-Christian public figure asked the crowd to partake in any religious act other than a Christian one. THAT's the problem here. It's the hypocrisy that makes him and others wrong. He calls it "politically correct" when it should just be called "correct".

Fear mongering about issues that don't exist -- No one is attacking Christmas, or attacking "religion" (as already pointed out above, attacking Christianity, specifically Evangelical Christianity), and never have. SNL already illustrated how silly Perry's Tebow reference was. When in trouble, always use social conservative wedge issues, right Perry?

The recent complaint by atheists about the nativity scene on government property, paid for by all tax-payers including Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc. who most certainly have a say about how their tax dollars are spent, is simply Separation of Church and State. It's not an attack on Christianity.

What these churchy people do is divisive, turning people against one another with hate -- against Muslims, against gays, heck against Mormons or any denomination (or lifestyle) other than their own. What people like Perry do is not Christ-like, and such bigotry is what needs to be condemned.

A recent poll shows people wish the presidential election was already over with. With crap like this it's no wonder. Go away Perry, and take your fellow bigots with you.

So Rick, if it is ok to express your faith in the public arena, I take that to mean you would resist any attempt to ban burqas here in the U.S. even though countries way more progressive than us like, say France, have already done so? You only feel the way you feel because you're currently in the majority. You won't feel the same way when you're inthe minority.

barry, I think you hit it spot on. That's the problem with christian zealots... Freedom of relgion (as long as it's christiantiy). Prayer in School (as long as it's christian prayer in school).

Jesus said spread the good news. He didn't say hide it in the basement.

Jesus was a unitarian, not a Christian. The good news Jesus was referring to isn't what Christian today mean by "the good news".

The Founding Fathers left two letters out of the greatest document in the world, the Constitution, when they wrote about freedom OF religon and not freedom FROM religon.

By George, Rick Perry's got it right. Let's all gather at the Public Square and give homage to the Royal Family as the Defenders of Faith and Protectors of the Church of England. God save the Queen. Down with those who would rebel against Her Royal Majesty. Let us expunge those traitors who would rise up against the Crown. There is no such thing as Separation of Church and State, Mr. Thomas Jefferson.

I think too many people put too much stock in those two so-called "missing" letters. Anyone who isn't a sociopath is practicing a religious perspective, even if that religious perspective includes a solemn belief that there is no "God".

The founding fathers were making clear that the state must treat all religious perspectives (which implicitly includes atheism) no different from any other. It is more convenient, and more fiscally responsible, to operationalize this tenet of our nation's principles such that we avoid religious trappings in secular settings: The moral obligation to support all religious perspectives no different from any other means it would typically be too costly to satisfy that requirement in any manner other than keeping such things clear of the secular arena.

Indeed, typically the only way to afford to support any religious perspective in a secular arena is to ignore the obligation implicit in the Constitution. No religious perspective says that it is moral to declare a solemn promise without intent to live up to your promise. Therefore, any trappings of religion that we see in the secular arena are almost surely signs of immorality at work.

I wonder if they gather in public to pray if they need a permit. If they have a large group of people being non violent will a cop will walk by and pepper spray the crap out of Rick? I will pray on that.

Walt: Well written post. I strive for brevity and did not include much more than my headline.

The point is this: how do the Christian Copts feel about religon in public when the Egyptian Muslims parade in the street, or the Lebanese Christians feel about their Hamas and Hezbollah brothers march in the street praising Allah? Most likely they don't feel included. To the same example, non-christian Americans don't feel included seeing signs over Main Street saying "Keep Christ in Christmas" or mangers with Jesus at City Hall (perfectly fine on church property, by the way). To put up a Hanukah bush or Kwanza sign is disingenuous and irrelevant; religon has no purpose in civil, secular matters. It does not belong in public places, not if freedom from religon, one of the best aspects of American society, is practiced.

My two

Speaking of obnoxious and repugnant, are you able to comprehend your own posts Memphis Kelly, or are you, like most of Feisty's stalkers, without any redeeming features?

You have an ignore button. You don't like what Feisty writes, put her on ignore. To do otherwise is a violation of the COH. Reported.

All Memphis Kelly did was to call someone carrot, an atheist and ask for some slack during the Christmas season. The comeback was to call Memphis an a__hole and lay down some silly grade school challenge. Wouldn't you give the responder the same advice and report her as well?

newday...I put Feisty on ignore a long time ago....if she attacked Memphis Kelly did you also report Feisty for her violation of the COH......I am sure you didn't..it only works one way on this board

Mr. Perry ...

Mattthew 6:5, 6:6

when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Nuff said

Like I said: you don't like what Feisty posts, put her on ignore. If you attack her, she has the right to defend herself. If you see her response as COH violation, report it. That's what reasonable people do.

What bothers you the most, that you can't handle truth or you can't handle strong minded women.

I'm sorry but where in this story did it say that Perry was "praying?" Showing your faith and praying are two different areas.

@newday -- you are avoiding the point. To report one violator and not the other is hypocritical. Any one has a right to defend oneself -- but within the guidelines of the COH. If you want to be a referee, then try to be evenhanded.

Thanks for the assist NDD!

The lack of 'logic' the RWNJ's display, never ceases to amaze me!

Moral of the story is; if you serve into my lane, YOU better be prepared for the impact! ☺

Some fool dosent know that carrot tops are green. Why is it that people of faith think that atheist don't believe as strongly in there view as people of faith do? The evidence is all on the atheist side after all.

if you serve into my lane, YOU better be prepared for the impact

Got a good laugh from that line.... :) does carrot top actually believe the crap she posts?

you can't handle truth or you can't handle strong minded women

and nddr has added another giggle to my morning, mis-quoting a Jack Nicholson line, how precious! Actually 'cowardly woman' would be more appropriate don't ya think!?

Feisty has long standing anger issues that she seems just not willing to address. I would imagine that she put me on "ignore" quite a while ago as I have several times asked her to respond to reasonably stated questions and she has never done so. If you review her posts you will note that she never does anything but attack people without any factual reference to the issues at hand. She is fun to tweek though!

Does that mean that perry supports Muslims, Buddhist, Hindus and Jews openly professing their love for their religion?

Rick, profess your belief in magic all you want.

There's never been a war waged on it. The religious among us represent the vast majority of the United States. The only 'war' has been over infusing your religion into GOVERNMENT. Why, oh why, can the right not grasp this?

Perhaps for the same reason they cannot grasp remedial science. Who knows.

At any rate, the moment you accept an agnostic or atheist Presidential contender, you can open your mouth about tolerance.

Funny thing: We DID, at least in the form of Lincoln, and several of our founding fathers. Jefferson, Adams, Washington... not ONE would be capable of running in the GOP.

Buddha forbid you learn from history.

For those of you crying that of course Christians can express their beliefs in public, I'll remind you that there are plenty of people out there who actively argue that we shouldn't. How many news comentators have written that Tim Tebow's Christianity doesn't belong on the football field? That's the public arena if I've ever seen one, and he's not even 'forcing it' on anyone.

Sometimes America needs to be reminded that the First Amendment gives us freedom for religion as well as freedom from religion.

I'll remind you that there are plenty of people out there who actively argue that we shouldn't.

While I don't doubt that there are such people, that's not what you're confronting here in this scenario. Let anyone who objects to a person saying a private prayer to themselves without imposing on anyone else's time or resources speak up - if no one does, then you're arguing against no one here actually supports.

It's that imposition that is wrong, not the expression of beliefs. There is a time and place for things. It would be inappropriate for a national network news anchor to take up two minutes during each broadcast saying a prayer, but we should all be willing to defend that news anchor's right to preach a sermon at church on Sunday.

However, even that's not the critical point: The really nefarious imposition is the attempt at insinuation of one's religious beliefs and values into the laws, regulations, rules and other parameters of secular society. If you are a Christian, and are unwilling to allow Jews or Muslims to pick a rule to impose on you, like their prohibition against eating pig, then don't seek to codify your religious precepts into the rules everyone must follow, either.

This is "Golden Rule 101" - stuff everyone should have learned in kindergarten!

hey, as long as he isn't holding up the game, lol. or doesn't get run over by fullback.

Why does Rick Perry (and the rest of the GOP) hate the Constitution?

Obama/Biden 2012

Walt: Re your post 1.43... Amen! ;-)

Walt - I agree with much of your post and appreciate the thoughtfulness behind your comments. I would suggest however that I have every right to attempt to "insinuate" my values and sense of ethics into the laws and regulations of a secular society whether those values and ethics are informed by my religious beliefs or by my personal or academic study of the ethics of the issues at hand. And I think you have that same right. That's the concept of the "public square", the hypothetical place where citizens in a democracy get to express their vision of what the country should be. You get to disagree with my ethos but you don't get to silence me because you don't like the source of my ethical principles. I'm not talking here about making everyone go to "my church" or the imposition of sharia law, or for that matter, Catholic canon law. I'm referring to my right as a citizen of the United States to engage in and attempt to influence the political process so that our nation reflects those values I find important. You'll notice that I've not made one single comment about what my religion or ethical positions are, so if you choose to respond, please don't make any assumptions about what I believe.

Some fool dosent know that carrot tops are green

PAQ, you are quite right! In this case the name Carrot Top comes from a guy in Vegas with a comedy act. He is called Carrot Top because of his wild orange colored hair and he is pretty good at getting crowds to laugh at him.

The carrot top at First Read does the same thing, gets people to laugh at her. The difference is - she doesn't get paid for her efforts! The old gal has the uncanny ability to be the first person to post a comment to almost every new story seeded by First Read! Maybe that's enough for her!

I am fairly sure that the intent of the Constitution in this matter was to assure that there would be no official church or religion of the Government (aka The Church of England). I don't think, considering the times, that the writers would have determined that the people should not be allowed to, for fear of offending others, publicly profess their religious beliefs. Government of the majority with due regard for the rights of the minority. Whilst it may be the minority's right to be offended by some things it is not necessarily their right to prevent them from occurring because they are offended by them as long as they are not hurt or disadvantaged in some manner. I was offended by Tea Party Parades in DC calling for cuts to government spending without specifying what and where those cuts should be......I was not hurt or disadvantaged by them professing their beliefs (political or religious and sometimes those are hard to distinguish with the Tea Party ((hell I am offended by the fact that they use that term and then apply patriot to it as well that sickens me)) but it doesn't hurt or disadvantage me in any way) in public on public property.

I know a lot of Jews and some Muslims not one of them has ever mentioned any concern what so ever of public displays of Christian Holidays like Xmas, Easter etc.......they just go on their merry way neither hurt or disadvantaged, and so it should be.

As long as folk like Rick and his ilk don't try to establish their beliefs as the Church of State then they can do as they please.....as soon as they do or try to establish laws which promote Christian prayer in schools or prior to sporting events etc then I will be the first to sign up for the revoulution until then it is just a distraction from the real issues, which is exactly what they want to distract the electorate from the real issues at hand.

@joemike404 - I wish more political debates (or what passes as such) were held at the level of your exchange with WaltDIS. I appreciate and commend you both. Yes, as a member of a free society you have the right to try to influence the political process by expressing any vision you wish. However, our Constitution places limits on what can be accomplished through simple legislative processes. And if you attempt to influence legislators to pass laws that would violate our constitutionally protected rights they are duty-bound to ignore you. (Sadly politicians of all stripes routinely fail to perform that duty.) In fact, I happen to believe that as Americans we have a moral obligation not to advocate for legislative action that we know or should know to be unconstitutional. The proper avenue available to us in such cases is an attempt to pass (or repeal) a constitutional amendment.

Logic, thanks for your comments. I often find the level of animosity and rancor on Newsvine to be disheartening and frustrating.

I absolutely agree with your thoughts about the duty of the people toward the Constitution. We should remember that the Constitution is intended to define, and thereby limit, the power of the federal government. As you suggest, the better part of the 537 elected federal officials seem to have forgotten that our government is supposed to serve the people not vice versa. The Constitution is the government's acknowledgment that our right to be free is inherent in our human nature and not granted to us by any government. It is the duty of the people to protect the Constitution from a government that constantly seeks to increase its power at the expense of the freedom of the people.

joemike####, well said....however there is one bit of the formula which seems to have gone astray, it is a "government by the people", in that the people must take responsibility for the government. So it is all well and good to blame the 500 odd folks we have put in there to undertake the duties of the federal government (not to mention the rest of the clowns on down the line) who now ignor the Constitution, but the fault is our own as we put them there and have allowed most of them to overstay their usefulness.

We The People......are responsible for the mess........demand TERM LIMITS for all elected positions.

. How many news comentators have written that Tim Tebow's Christianity doesn't belong on the football field?

I would say it depends on whether his expression of Christianity breaks the "no celebration" rules that all players are required to abide by. If they do, then they don't belong on the field. If they don't, or in any way delay or otherwise inhibit play, then no problem.

I would say, stopping to "thank God" at the end of a play is just as much a "celebration violation" as a little "happy dance" as it draws attention to the player and I do believe that's part of the intent of the rule. But if he does it on the sideline, no problem.

I would suggest however that I have every right to attempt to "insinuate" my values and sense of ethics into the laws and regulations of a secular society whether those values and ethics are informed by my religious beliefs or by my personal or academic study of the ethics of the issues at hand. And I think you have that same right. That's the concept of the "public square", the hypothetical place where citizens in a democracy get to express their vision of what the country should be.

There is a difference between voicing the basis for your beliefs and values, and actually insinuating your beliefs and values in the laws of the land. Contrary to popular belief, the United States is not, and was never intended to be, a perfect democracy. A perfect democracy can very readily exhibit the sin of tyranny of the majority. We are a representative, constitutional republic, where the right of people to practice their own religion is protected - the majority religion does not have the right to make everyone comply with that majority's religious beliefs and values.

You get to disagree with my ethos but you don't get to silence me because you don't like the source of my ethical principles.

No one has talked about "silencing" anything. Rather, this is a matter of expressing one's faith through the action of imposing laws.

I'm not talking here about making everyone go to "my church" or the imposition of sharia law, or for that matter, Catholic canon law. I'm referring to my right as a citizen of the United States to engage in and attempt to influence the political process so that our nation reflects those values I find important.

However, if you don't recognize that there is a legitimate and overriding limit on that, i.e., as I outlined above, then you are asserting a right you don't actually have, and shouldn't.

You'll notice that I've not made one single comment about what my religion or ethical positions are, so if you choose to respond, please don't make any assumptions about what I believe.

Ditto. :) I'll give you a hint, though: My religion is that of the second and sixth POTUS.

Jesus, while on the cross prayed to God. I see no problem of people praying in public. There are plenty of times where that IS appropriate. In deed Christians are supposed "pray without ceasing". What the praying in your closet is about is not not praying in public to make a spectacle of it.'

There are those who may use Daniel as an example are not understanding the context. When Daniel prayed in a closet - it was illegal for him to pray or worship to any god other than the Assyrian gods.

What the Bible basically says is, If Perry is doing it just to be seen, he already has his reward. Regardless, this is his motives for doing so is God's to judge, not yours.

Waltdis

Jesus was a unitarian, not a Christian.

Wow! Where do I start? Not exactly.

First, Christian means "like Christ". So who could Christ be a Christian?

That is what the unitarians promote and not a fact. Classic unitarianism has a tendency to accept nearly any religious creed as acceptable. If Although Paul preached that he did not care how Christ was preached, John clearly showed through the seven churches that Christ was to be the unity and that those not teaching and living the gospel would be removed. Each denomination seems to have broken from another, because they believe either their practice or understanding is superior to the one they broke from. Unitarianism seems to be one no different than other denominatonal faiths where the teaching as they teach and understand becomes more important than Christ. That IS a problem.

Egilman

I AM a christian, and his god does not speak for me!

and your version of god does not speak for him! Does your version speak of what God really said?

It's supposed to be you and I conforming to God's image, Not everyone conforming to Your image of what God is.

Perry speaks the truth on this one, The founding fathers believed that everyone, including politicians should be free to speak of and worship God in private And public.

Christian means "like Christ"

Not in general discourse, and unless your intent is to despoil the discussion by being pedantic, I'm sure you know that the term Christian is being used in this case to denote a person who practices the Christian religion. Jesus didn't. He wasn't Christian. Jesus believed in a single united deity, literally unitarian.

(You later went off into some irrelevancy about Unitarian denominations. "Unitarian" is a word, not just a set of denominations. When the word is not capitalized, it isn't referring to the denominations.)

Walt

You stopped at and didn't read any further - for I said "how then could he be a Christian?" Not only that, but the term "Christian" did not exist until several years after his death.

As far as universalist. Jesus said to one thief - "today you will be with me in Paradise" and nothing to the other. That's a far cry from the typical meaning of universalist and throught the Bible it is clear that some will be cast into outer darkness, the lake of fire, etc. He came that all MAY be saved, not WILL be saved.

u·ni·ver·sal·ist/ˌyo͞onəˈvərsəlist/

Noun:

A person who believes that all humankind will eventually be saved.

Which has nothing to do with a unitarian belief in God.

Are you even reading what you're replying to?

It's better to live your faith than talk about it.

Still, looking at some of the comments here from well meaning people, I kind of wish more people DID talk about their faith.

Being Christian doesn't mean hating Muslims, minorities, gays or any one else.

Jesus summed up the whole of the law in two commandments. One dealt with God, the other was to "love your neighbor as yourself."

Well put, John B.

Let's stop discussing it altogether as it (the subject) is in fact just a distraction which is continually churnned up by the politicians and their directors in the Military Industrial Complex to keep We The People from focusing on the real issues at hand, which is the fact that the people we have elected to govern and administer both of my countries (US and Aust.) are ripping us off blind. Believe what you want, profess it wherever you so desire but concentrate on the issue at hand!

It appears that applies to prayer, doesn't it? Jesus, on the other hand, was very public in speaking of His relationship to God. I think I'd prefer to follow His examples.

Texan, when you begin to walk on water, raise the dead, cure the blind with mud, hell, do any of these 3, yes, shout your lungs off to the Father as Jesus did in public.

Until then, think of what you will feel when a Muslim shouts Allahu Akbar whenever he scores a touchdown.

lmao mrpogi!!! that was great :-)

mrpogi,

The best miracle was water into wine. If Perry (oh sorry that should be with an "a") can change water into wine, then he has earned the right to behave like a prophet. Until then he is just another person.

Touché, Mikey!

To me, ALL religions are strange and scary, and the people who claim membership in them or "practice" them, universally fail to actually live by the teachings of their god and his prophets. This is true with the followers of ALL religions--not just christians.

And, thank goodness, Rick Perry has no chance anyway. :-D

Anthony, YES!

We need to get some Islamic believers to pray with Rick Perry and see how tolerant he is.

Mickey,

Might I counter with:

Matthew 5:14 - You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them: go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Mark 4:21 - And He said to them: is a lamp brought in to be put under a basket or under a bed and not on a stand?

You might want to look at the Bible in a broader context Mickey.

[You might want to look at the Bible in a broader context Mickey.]

So what you're saying is the bible contradicts itself?

joemike404

Mickey,

Might I counter with:

Matthew 5:14 - You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

Mark 16:15 - And He said to them: go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Somehow I don’t think any of those verses were intended to mean, “When you’re losing your bid for the republican nomination broadcast your faith at every opportunity hoping to get the support of the religious right.”

Anthony, there ARE people who actually live by the teachings of their religion. They usually do it quietly and steadfastly with dignity, not in the public eye or for public attention. They move gently and peacefully through their lives shining a light for anyone perceptive enough to notice. I am sorry you don't know any of them.

Mickey, the Bible does contradict itself. You can find justification in the Bible for pretty much any position you care to take, as evidenced in the quotes provided by yourself and Joemike. There is even a passage in the Bible that says parents should kill their disobedient children.

Mickey - DUH! Of course the Bible contradicts itself. That's because its an historically-based allegorical collection of stories meant to instruct people regarding their relationship with God and each other. Various authors told stories from differing perspectives to meet the need of the lesson. The fact that the Bible is self-contradictory is only a problem for fundamentalists who claim to believe that the Bible is the unerring word of God and historical not allegorical. But hey, I'm not the one that started quoting the Bible, you did.

Junicon - I wasn't responding to Rick Perry, I was responding to Mickey.

The only apostle that talked to Jesus first person in the bible was Thomas. The rest was all third person. If they called it the Thomas Diaries a would lean towards believing the whole book. Anyway talking about any faith or Tebow does not bother me. Telling kids there is no SANTA, would make me leave that self-righteous church in a second. That preacher would have to get contributions from someone else for his next Rolex.

Having been around different versions of the bible and different teachers of the bible - it is not so much that the bible contradicts itself, but rather men not understanding in the complete context of what is said. The difficulty in illustrating the correct translations since there are often no exact words or phrases that capture the precise meanings of the original Hebrew and Greek.

What you have in the many lanquage versions of the Bible is often a paraphrase of what the translator/s understand the language to mean."

Case in point. the first couple of verses from Genesis are rendered in english as 'the earth was void' or 'the earth became void'. I think a well studied Jewish Rabbi would tell you" the earth became void" would be correct. Although the first implies the earth was already in existence - the bulk of Christians take it that the earth was created on the second day (1000 years). The second verse make it clear that the earth was something, and was destroyed.

Remember scientists think the earth was struck by some large asteroid? What else do we know from ice core? Well, the earth heats slowly over periods of 13,500 years to 15,000 years and quickly cools in a few decades into an ice age. As a side note, the ice cores also show that we had the lowpoint of an ice age about 13,000 +/- years ago.

If you follow the genesis account, there were 7 days (7000 years) and from the geneology provided in the old and new testamant man has been on the earth only about 6000 years. Before you get your shorts in a knot, with today's average age of life and today's current birthrate, you can re-populate the earth to the Billions of people today in just about 2000 years with just a few people to begin with.

I still don't see why it's wrong for anyone – Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, atheist, agnostic, etc. – to say what they believe.

Not talking about cramming one's beliefs down other people's throats, putting other people down, or encouraging the fear or hatred of anyone who feels differently, but just what or how or even why you believe what you do.

When a Muslim says "Allahu akbar", I think "God is great". I don't feel that I have to agree, but in point of fact, I do. And I certainly don't feel threatened. Nor do I feel threatened when someone says "all religion is insanity."

To Heartlight3:

First, I sincerely commend you for expressing your thoughts without resorting to name-calling and personal attacks, as SO many others in these types of discussion forums tend to do. It's refreshing to see. Let's hope more of the others follow your example. :-)

Secondly, I was sincerely expressing my true feelings in my earlier post. It greatly saddens me; too, because whether or not there is a God or any truth to the Bible, or the Koran, or any other religious work, it would be heartening to see that well-meaning people could understand a religious philosophy’s teachings; choose to embrace them fully; and put them into practice in a sincere, non-violent way without pretence or hypocrisy (or convenient excuses and personal exemptions); and without
harming or taking advantage of others or disrespecting those who happen to practice a different faith—or no religious faith at all.

Thirdly, I will attempt to expound briefly on the comments in my earlier post, solely for clarification. I do so with all sincerity, and without intending any offense or disrespect to any PERSON. I am simply trying to share some of the reasons why I feel the way I do about “religion” as a whole—ALL religions. I respect everyone’s right to follow their own path through life, and to hold and express their opinions in respectful and peaceful ways.

Okay, I will concede that there are probably some people who either faithfully conform to the teachings of Jesus, or they at least "appear" to be doing so outwardly. I am also sorry that I have never met any of those kinds of Christians, as it might have restored some of my faith in mankind, because having the capacity to believe in something greater than oneself (whether it be religion, philosophy, or whatever) and to truly and faithfully commit oneself to it, seems a higher state of being—to me.

But let's face it... if Christians (as a whole—I am NOT indicting any individual person) are supposed to be
the great examples of love, goodness, mercy, meekness, kindness, tolerance, forgiveness, patience, and sacrifice, then (as a whole) they are largely doing a rather poor job of it in a great many people’s opinions, which is probably a big reason why Christians get such a bad rap from all directions. In other words, they are largely doing it to themselves through their own words and behaviors**(see below). As just one very small example, look how many apparent "defenders of the Christian faith" participate in these types of discussions about similar topics, and can't show even the slightest bit of decorum, respect, tolerance for other ideas, restraint, or civility with their fellow human beings (and truthfully, most others who post comments here don’t either). It gets pretty bad! That’s one reason I found your post so refreshingly civil. (**I think the same thing applies almost universally to other groupings or collections of individuals—they are largely judged [individually and collectively] by those outside that group, by the words and behaviors of the people within the group. So, I think that if religions [or other groups] want/expect to be viewed in a more favorable light by those outside of their own grouping, the best way to achieve this may be for them to speak and behave in a way that allows for such an improved opinion from those outside the group. For those who choose to identify themselves as Christian, it probably means following ALL of the teachings of Jesus “with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength” [or however that goes]. It probably means being humble, and meek, and kind, and honest, and tolerant, and merciful, and unselfish, and forgiving and it probably even means actually LOVING their so-called “enemies” and
loving their neighbors as they love themselves. I think eliminating the manifest hypocrisy and the phoniness from their everyday behaviors and words, would allow most of non-Christian society to actually look upon Christians as a peace-loving, honorable, and respectable group of human beings, even if those people didn’t share the same belief system, culture, or lifestyle. A similar thing could be said of all groupings of people, I think—politicians, Muslims, etc.)

For what it's worth, religion is not foreign to me. I was raised in the protestant church by religious hypocrites and surrounded by still more religious hypocrites in the church, and in school (back when that was legal, and the norm), and in my community at large. Until just about four years ago, I tried to remain faithful to the religious beliefs and practices that I was taught to believe in as a child and as a young adult. But the older I got, and the more I read, observed, interacted with, and talked to the Christians around me, and especially the Christian elders and leaders, it became increasingly clear that they were all either phony, or deluded, or just going through the motions and simply doing what they had been taught to do as children, or they couldn’t really explain what they said they believe so strongly in, or maybe they were still trying to wrestle with their own understanding of, or commitment to, their chosen faith. Either way, I saw (what I sincerely believe are) FAR more obvious fakes and deluded people, than people who appeared to be sincerely trying to live by Jesus’ teachings in an honorable, humble, and dedicated way, but sometimes falling short. So, after several more recent (and deeply personal) experiences with Christians and their “churches” that hurt people I care about, I have completely abandoned “religion” forever. I no longer believe or practice—at all. And I feel more FREE than I have in the whole of my life! It has been very liberating, and spirit healing.

My entire extended family continues to hold onto their religious “faith,” though, as do all of their friends (because, they refuse to associate with non-Christians—unlike Jesus did). When I told them of my choice to follow a different path in life (and did so very respectfully), their true Christian qualities shone through
again. They (my own family) disassociated themselves from me (except for my Brother, who also is a non-Christian and a family outcast). They did not weep at the “loss” of my soul or the thought of me burning in hell. They did not hug me and accept me anyway, and hope that I would one day change my mind. They have simply written me off like I’m a stranger—and they have written my precious 18 year old daughter off too, because she now has questions and doubts.

My complaint is not with God, per se (for the benefit of those who make the personal choice to believe in God), or with any particular religious text or belief system—though I do have questions. My real beef is with organized RELIGION, as conceived, developed, and practiced by individuals and groups. My problem is with the evil, twisted, unjust, inconsistent, or unholy application of religious teachings (along with a lot of “extra” junk that’s not even contained in their own religious texts) by fallible, evil, unprincipled, deceitful, avaricious, bigoted, unenlightened, power-hungry human beings, and the incalculable human suffering (large and small) that has resulted from it. Also, I have a beef with the publically feigned “righteousness” of so many religious individuals; who (in actual practice) are really no
different or better than anyone else, though the surely pretend to be.

I am not a theologian, a psychologist, or a sociologist. In forming my thoughts and opinions of religion (as an institution) and of the people who “practice” it, all I can do is to go by what I have witnessed with my own eyes, the things I have read about from seemingly competent sources, and the things I have personally experienced—coupled with a little common sense. I have to trust my own instincts. And in my opinion, there is precious little good coming from “religion” that I have seen (which is not to say that lots of inherently decent individuals aren’t doing a lot of noble, humanitarian things in the name of their chosen religion, and allowing it to take the credit). But… Myriad horrible wars have been fought in the name of religion, along with innumerable acts of savagery, depravity, brutality, oppression, and terrorism. Countless millions of innocent people have suffered and died at the hands of religious fanatics in a position of power or authority, and of those who blindly followed them. The Mullahs preach intolerance, oppression, jihad, hate, and death; while stripping their precious women of their dignity and equality and most of their civil and human rights, and beheading or hanging gays simply for existing. The Christians practice intolerance, deceit, greed, occasional murder, and hypocrisy on a grand scale, and Christian televangelists steal the life savings of millions of old and desperate people. The Catholics are raping little boys and covering it up, and have sold “indulgences” to their unsuspecting followers to “allow them to get out of Purgatory early.” And these are the good guys?! It’s all so damned crazy, and evil, and WRONG!

Televangelists and “faith-healers” are crooks and snake oil salesmen who crave power, money, and celebrity, and want to sell you their latest book, CD, or DVD; or maybe a special "prayer shawl," or a loaf of “mercy manna,” or a bottle of "miracle water," or simply guilt “the faithful” into sending them money for some nonsense (Like the time Oral Roberts announced on TV that God told him that unless he raised like… 5 million dollars by a certain date he was going to kill him. So Oral begged and pleaded on TV until his faithful followers scraped together the money and sent it in and “saved him” from his own God.) It's pure NONSENSE to me, and millions upon millions of desperate and trusting people have fallen victim to their lies and scams—including several in my own immediate and extended family—for decades! There is no telling how many tens of thousands of dollars my own mother has sent in to Jimmy Swaggart, Robert Tilton, Ernest Angley, Benny Hinn, Kenneth and Gloria Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Jesse Duplantis, and on, and on, and on… Each of them sells her on the idea that in order to “prosper,” she needs to send in her tithes and “love gifts,” and buy all their books, and CD’s an DVD’s, and buy the miracle “prosperity necklace,” and on, and on, and on… Oh… and she’s supposed to have “faith” that prosperity will be hers—only it somehow never comes. “Maybe God’s not ready to give it to me yet.” What they never tell her, is that if she simply kept her own money… see? And in the interim, she lives barely above the poverty level
herself, because she’s sending these charlatans all the money she earns, and even from her social security check! OMG! No… she has never listened to us. They’ve convinced her that she has to live in virtual poverty as a sign of her “faith” that God will provide for her in his own way, and in his own time. Huh?!

I have watched the "Christians" in my own family and in the many churches I have attended in my lifetime TALK about love, and goodness, and mercy, and honesty, and faithfulness, and forgiveness, and the importance of being a good Samaritan to those in need (and in public, they all do such good job of
pretending that these things are important to them), BUT... If you watch them closely enough, especially in a setting away from their church and their church friends, you may begin to see that in their “real” life, they actually practice unfaithfulness, pride, intolerance, arrogance, bigotry, bullying, impatience, stubbornness, exclusion, selfishness, unforgiveness, greed, callousness, dishonesty, opportunism, covetousness, lusts of the flesh, deceit, gossip and slander, duplicity, and a general lack of real commitment to live as Jesus instructed them to live, without rationalizing or making exceptions and excuses why a particular set of Biblical instructions doesn’t apply to them. You may see some or all of these things—to one degree or another.

My own “Christian” dad was a complete “drunk” who abandoned us when we were very young. He never came back. He refused to pay child support. We were literally as poor as dirt until I turned 18 and joined the military. Our own uber-“Christian” mom, was an alcoholic who raised us in abject, unimaginable poverty while she spent ALL the money from her teaching job on televangelists and on obtaining additional college degrees for herself, while we went hungry or ate mayonnaise sandwiches day after day. She even let her youngest son quit school in the 8^th grade and never said a word to him. She now has 4 or 5 college degrees (including two Master’s Degrees), and my brother has less than an 8^th grade education and lives in total poverty, alcoholism, and hopelessness. I am now the only person who treats him with respect and human decency—the “Christians” in our family won’t. And though she was a devoted, church-going Christian woman, she rarely let a day go by that she didn’t berate and humiliate us as children and remind each of us how “worthless” we were and how we would “never amount to anything”—something she never did while we were in public or when her Christian friends were around! And she still does it to this day. My “Christian” maternal Grandparents were lifelong leaders in the church. They were also unloving, frequently overbearing, manipulating, and unforgiving, and would never miss an opportunity to dish out a backhanded put-down to us grandchildren or tell us that when we turned 18 they were going to force us to join the military and leave. Many times I have witnessed “Christians” lie, gossip behind people’s backs, cheat, manipulate, double-cross, steal, call people names, get drunk, take drugs, hurt people’s feelings and refuse to apologize, cheat on their spouse, and callously turn their backs on hurting people and even their own family members in their time of need, instead of exemplifying Jesus’
example of the good Samaritan.

So you see, I just can’t see the point of “religion,” unless it’s to frighten, bewilder, rob, and control the masses for some nefarious purpose, or to serve as some meaningless way people can identify themselves as being part of a certain group (or a religion-based social clique), when they neither truly understand nor follow their chosen religion’s doctrines, requirements, or practices. It’s all just so crazy, and scary, and meaningless, and divisive (from my individual viewpoint only), and it has far too much potential to cause social problems, destroyed lives, and for abuse of power by those in charge.

Personally, I’m not convinced that there are very many people on this earth who actually follow Jesus’ teachings with “all their heart, mind, soul, and strength;” though if they exist, it would be interesting to meet them, since they are likely people of sincerity, faithfulness, and peace—very good qualities in any human being. They would be people I could respect and whose company I could enjoy, even if I don’t share their spiritual or religious beliefs. Of course, the same would be true of the good and peaceful people from any religion, culture, nation, etc.

I realize I rambled on… probably way too long. :-) Sorry. It's a sensitive subject for me. Hopefully it made sense, and wasn’t too boring, or controversial… and I sincerely hope I didn’t offend anyone. I didn’t intend to.

BTW, if you get the chance, consider watching Bill Maher’s “Religulous.” It’s very enlightening.

I am sure he is a decent kid, but I personally find his behavior demeaning to his faith, I would think the invocation of God would be for something more important than the outcome of a football game. The game is between his team and another team of mortals, not himself, God and the other team. I find it completely arrogant on his part that he can routinely call on God, and give him credit for something as trivial as a football play. I would have a lot more respect for him if he knelt and prayed after a player was seriously injured. I am sure he is a good kid but I feel his constant prayer conspicuously displayed on the football field is inappropriate, unless of course it was the Christian league versus the Muslim league playoff game.

Exactly. Tim is also implying with every remark of his that God does not favor the other team, only his own team. Seems rather arrogant to me.

I agree that praying for victory in sports contests is inappropriate. Both teams are equally deserving of winning, so why would anyone presume that God will interfere in favor of one team over the other? Players might feel grateful for the abilities that enable them to play well, but to think that God is personally involved in the success of individual scoring plays is ridiculous.

I'm a Bronco fan -- live near Denver. No doubt Tim Tebow is a good kid -- not a Tom Brady however and never will be. But his constant religiosity is about to male me barf.

I doubt god has a favorite NFL and Rick Perry is the second worst candidate to ever run for president -- just behind Newt.

My comment had nothing really to do with Tim's faith (I get a little tired of it, myself). He works hard to win and blames himself for loses. Gov. Perry just uses it for votes.

Tim not only talks the talk, he walks the walk. Don't see Gov. Perry doing that.

Really, get off the "I hate Tebow" thing. He's a good kid, and it has zero effect on you what he does after scoring a TD. Why is it that people are all over this kid about that, but the NFL players who do obnoxious things, or break the law, nobody says boo to. In a world over run by people like the Kardashians and Ocho-I obviously failed Spanish Class -Cinco, it's kind of nice to see someone get some air time for something other than their trashy lifestyles. Let the kid have his faith, it has no consequence in your life. I mean really, it just sounds like you're jealous.

A short prayer by the players for a safe game with no injuries has been a part of football for a long long time. Not all players do it,nor are any forced to take part.In high school,and college,My Jewish friends with the last names of Goldberg,and Gerber,said a short prayer at the same time,before and after a game , right next to all of us Italians....(as a kid in grade school,we were kind of jealous of the Jewish kids who got 'our' holidays off,AND thiers).....The same sharing carried on in the Army.We all respected each other's beliefs,and that kind of respect kept us going through all the deployments. When you're living that close with other people you can't pick and choose who's in the next bunk over.We put up a little Christmas tree in the barracks,others put up a Menorah....nobody got upset with the others beliefs..........hell..... when we were in Kosavo,we saw the refugees observing thier Muslim prayers....we stopped doing anything loud with the trucks or the tracks, until they were done with prayers....nobody complained , (at least on the Army side of the street)............oh well....Perry is a little 'out there' for my tastes......but Merry Christmas to all,and celebrate whatever your faith is in good health...................U.S.Army Disabled Veteran

Exccellent post, wonderin.

Thanks for your service and God bless you and all your Jewish and Italian cohorts this Christmas and Hannukah.

phinephancy, you really don't have a clue, do you?

Hey Einstein - show us a clue by YOU and we'll get back to ya! ☺

The trolls are covering their corners1

More than you do. Do you personally know the Tebow's? I do.

Phinephancy,

Who are the Tebow's that you personally know? Is it Tim, the Denver Broncos' quarterback? Is it Tim and another Tebow, and you've engaged in the same grammatical error for the ___th time in your lif. Phine, just because there's an "s" at the end to signify a plural noun doesn't mean an apostrophe is required. Apostrophes are only appropriate to signify a contraction (e.g., cannot=can't, did not=didn't) or possession (Phinephancy's, Joe Blow's).

As long as you keep committing this sophomoric grammatical error, I'll keep reminding you of the rules of grammar that you apparently are too stubborn to follow.

Hope he shoots blanks, we don't need any little Perry's running around, one is enough.

Doesn't matter if he's shooting blanks or not if he's not shooting them into a woman ...

Yeah he is an idiot and a hypocrite as well.
Obama/Biden 2012

You are free to express it.

We are free to criticize it.

Fair enough.

Because he hasn't earned it yet? I mean the constitution does say a little something about a vote?

The Constitution does say something about a vote. Unfortunately, what's been going on is that there are a lot of people who are saying that the last election should be disregarded, as their candidate didn't win, and who have spent all their free time trying to rip him apart any time he shows up in public.

The Republicans haven't given the people any electable candidates as of yet. After all their blabber about Obama, it's kind of funny how they are seemingly giving this election to him.

Republicans are big believers in representative democracy until there guy looses. It's like they believe strongly in other people following there faith as long as they don't have to.

because he hasn't earned it yet? Is that a question, or a statement?

ElkMeadow @12.2

Well they may be disregarding the election results, but I haven't, 2008 the Republicans had their collective azzes handed to them, in 2010 they returned the favor. (well, the electorate actually did it but who's counting) And, Mr Obama has done his share of ripping and shredding the opposition in public also. Lets stay reasonable here.

Ruken @12.3

The Republicans haven't given the people any electable candidates as of yet. After all their blabber about Obama, it's kind of funny how they are seemingly giving this election to him.

Well, they do have one electable candidate even if he's not really a republican at heart. It does seem like they are doing everything in their power to lose this election doesn't it? (might it have something to do with their not wanting Dr Paul anywhere near the presidency?) At the end of last week I predicted that Dr Paul would be leading in Iowa by the end of this week. I was listening to the radio in the car this morning when I heard the local pundit state that the latest poll was out showing Dr Paul in the lead now. That came quicker than I thought.

Shellie-657180 @12.5

because he hasn't earned it yet? Is that a question, or a statement?

It was a rhetorical answer to Cowboy's rhetorical "Why" question. Basically, it functions as both a statement and a question at the same time.

In simple language, it was a smartazzed answer to a smartazzed statement. (but all in good fun ;-))

Rick Perry will not be the governor of Texas again...he resigned in Jan 2011 so he could get an extra $100,000 per year (his retirement as governor) he is serving out the rest of his term.....and as a Texan I have never lost my dignity, my dignity does not depend on who you or anyone else deems the right one to be governor....If you voted for Obama for President I know you have no semblance of dignity or for that matter pride in our nation

Nancy, were you by chance educated in Texas? You have one long run on sentence there that makes no sense.

Really Shellie...that's all you have?? LOL...I am sorry to disappoint you but educated in California...

I guess I should call in to question your education....because you can not read English...but I won't because I don't care, that you can not comprehend

Nancy, are you sure he really resigned or just took what he calls an early retirement? I didn't read anywhere that this was his last term. And I live in Texas.

jpsholly, If you think Ron Paul is the answer, you need to open your damn eyes and ears! He would destroy this nation further than it already is. None of the republican @!$%#s stand a chance in hell!!! Especially Ron Paul and Perry. And why are you wearing that silly ass mask?

Can we please have someone NOT from Texas? Look what the last one did to the country and the international community.

Ron Paul makes sense? In what alternate universe? You do know that that V movie is fiction I hope.

Clever, Larry! :-D

Wiccans that I know are very unlikely to get in your face about their faith, unlike the Conservative Evangelicals. I'm all for the closeted prayers. Let's keep our faith out of public debate and use it to enrich our lives, if that is indeed what it does.

"Convictions make convicts. Your beliefs can imprison you."
--Timothy Leary

Funny... I somehow doubt that you would be thrilled if I ran for public office and wore my Christian belief on my sleeve to the same ridiculous extent that you do in an attempt to be "different" and "show" with your belief in witchcraft.

As for you Hank. In THIS nation we have a right to religous FREEDOM, and part of that religous FREEDOM is that we are allowed to talk about it. Too bad that in your P.C. mindset people should actually hide their beliefs or be attacked for it by the likes of you, Indigo, and the other hypocrites on the left.

And thanks for quoting a drug crazed idiot for what you think is an "intelligent" quoted.

Try this instead: "And having thus chosen our course, without GUILE, and with PURE purpose, let us renew our trust in God, and go forward without fear, and with manly hearts".....Abraham Lincoln

Cheryl,

See this is where you people miss the boat... You want, not only the freedom to practice your own personal religion, you want the freedom from hearing those that disagree with your religion, as well as the freedom to insert your religion into others lives. If you're gonna put it out there, prepare to hear opinion on it.

Yes, you are allowed to talk about it, and we are allowed to talk about how annoying or hypocritical it is.

And yes, you are allowed to practice it, and we are allowed to not practice it.

Some of you Christians seem to believe that your freedom to practice religion is diminished by our freedom to express an opinion on it, but how is that so? How does my opinion of your faith, effect your faith at all??? Freedom is a two sided coin, freedom from and freedom to. Just because you don't get to tell other people they have to follow your belief system, doesn't mean you can't follow your belief system.

The only people in this country who are guilty of a war on religion or a war on religious freedom is the fundementalist right wingers. Keep your faith out of laws.

HankE said:

"Convictions make convicts. Your beliefs can imprison you."

In this case literally. Homeland Security just put practitioners of Norse Mysticism on the terror watch list. Seriously, when was the last time someone blew up a public building 'in the name of the Norse god Odin?'

This is all the more worrisome because Congress just passed that bill that would give the US military the authority to arrest and detain anyone suspected of terrorism, without charge or trial, until the current hostilities(i.e. war on terror) are over. When is the 'War on Terror' going to be over? Just so the other people on the watch list--the alternative media, the food stockpilers, and the animal rights activists like me--know when it's safe to start speaking out about the issues we feel strongly about again??

If you have to tell people how christian you are, how christian are you?

Best post yet!!!