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Subscribe to RSSGREENVILLE, S.C. -- Rick Santorum sharply contrasted his blue-collar roots with the wealthy upbringing of the frontrunner for the Republican presidential nomination during a stop at a local diner here on Saturday, arguing his background gives him a better chance than Mitt Romney to win key states that will decide this year's election.
"You want to win this election? Then we’ve got to go to the states where you win the election, and it’s Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, North Carolina, Missouri, Wisconsin. How do you win elections as a Republican in these states? You do it by getting Reagan Democrats to vote for you," Santorum told the crowd of nearly 200 packed into Tommy's Country Ham House. "I respect Mitt Romney’s career in business, but as the grandson of a coal miner, who grew up in public housing in a steel town in Western Pennsylvania...and whose record is a track record of working in those blue-collar communities, [I have] a much better chance of winning those states than an executive from Bain Capital."
The former Pennsylvania senator drew attention for the speech he delivered the night of his second-place finish in the Iowa caucus, where he talked about the hardships and sacrifices his immigrant grandfather made to come to America. The personal account was a stark contrast to Romney's speech just moments later, which was not a personal account, but a critique of President Obama's record and a repeat of many stump-speech talking points.
Santorum frequently talks about his upbringing on the campaign trail, but now he is using it as an attack point on Romney, who has been the recipient of much of his rhetorical fire since surging in the polls last December.
While today Santorum pointed to Romney's time at an investment firm as an attribute that could cost him swing states, he has shied away from the attacks Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry have made against Romney's business background. Attacks, Santorum has contended, that undermine capitalism and America's free-market system.
But here in the Upstate region of South Carolina, a strongly conservative part of the state, he continued his jabs at Romney's record as a governor and the health-care legislation he signed into law as governor of Massachusetts. A Romney nomination, Santorum said, would discredit the GOP case against the president's health-care bill.
"The problem is the person who’s leading in the polls in the primary is someone who can’t make that case because he passed a bill similar to Obamacare and still says today it was the right thing to do," Santorum said. "That issue will be gone. The most important issue we have in this election about fundamental freedom and the role of government in your lives we forfeit. Why would we do that? Why would we pick someone who’s had a record as a liberal governor of Massachusetts to lead our country at a time we need fundamental change."
To voters here, Santorum's conservative record and working-class background matters.
"I wasn't born with a silver spoon," said Stephen Grubba, a Greenville resident who and undecided voter. "I worked hard put myself through college; I'm a self-employed guy now. I think someone that can relate to me a little bit more as an individual hopefully means he can relate to the country more."
Voters like Grubba will be essential for Santorum to succeed in the Palmetto State, where he faces a daunting challenge of overcoming a crowded field of conservative candidates who have a larger war chest than him.
But for those who have already decided on Santorum, his background is only an added bonus to complement his reputation as a strong social conservative.
"It's not a requirement," said Greenville resident Jeff Kelly of Santorum's roots. "But when you look at how Republicans tend to be stereotyped, Mitt Romney kind of fits the stereotype. I think Santorum can really bust that stereotype and appeal in a lot of those swing states."
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"Malibu Mitt "....just doesnt think we are smart enough to see through his BS ..He was one of the reasons we had the banking crash ....! People lost their homes and jobs as "MALIBU MITT" gets his 12 Million dollar beach house ready for his poor starving family ...lol
Interesting theory there Say. Especially since Mitt was in politics in 2007 and 2008 when we had the 'banking' crash.
Say - can you tell us when he purchased his 'Malibu' house? [By the way, do you have any idea the distance between Malibu and La Jolla? FYI - entirely different places].
But how about this Say - you tell us, using your own words, why you think Mitt was one of the reasons for the 'banking' crash.
Spanky... "" god bless you insipid lil heart "... " Malibu Mitt." is a well deserved name Mitt has in La Jolla .. The people of La Jolla refer to him as a Ken doll !
Romney will say anything just to get elected, anything. The world is flat and his weak minded followers will say yes.
.............................."The 1% are pickpocketing the middle class"
The 1% are about to have a very rude awakening ! They have no idea !
If the 1% were as smart as they think they are, they would take the time and read a little history. When there is such a diparity in income, with the mood of the people of not just the US but the world, I do believe they might rethink some of their actions.
They have never really been challenged before like this in the USA ..This isn't something their attorneys can buy off or fix...Which is how it has always worked in the past .
do you have peni$ envy maybe?? the Gingrich socialist view maybe for you???
BREAKING NEWS:
Social Conservatives Officially Unite on Rick Santorum as Romney Alternative: The Family Research Council President Tony Perkins announced on a conference call that social conservatives had officially settled on Rick Santorum as their preferred candidate for the Republican nomination.
The decision was made today after three rounds of balloting at a meeting of more than 150 social conservative leaders and political activists held over the last two days in Brenham, Texas. Though the meeting was widely seen as an effort to settle on a candidate to stop Mitt Romney, Romney’s own campaign sent a representative to make an appeal to the group and Perkins said it was “not a bash Romney weekend” and “not a lot of time” was spent discussing him. Jon Huntsman’s campaign was the only campaign not to participate in the meeting.
Say it isn't so. You sound like you looking for some type revolution. Do you really want to see us turn on each other. War isn't pretty you know. Have you ever served?
Dennis,
Will this mean that it is "open season" for Rick Santorum to hit at Romney?
Dennis Columbus, Ohio. Thanks for the information.
lisa,
The problem is history. Those who don't learn from it are doomed to repeat it. Look at the Arab spring, look at the French and Russian revolutions. This is what can happen. No, no one wants violence - and usually the government that comes from such an overthrow isn't a good one. However, you can only keep people down for so long until they stand up and fight back.
Another expample of this is the civil rights movement. In that case, PEACEFUL diobedience turned the trick.
They 1% need to look at these and other examples and learn - QUICKLY!
Santorum couldn't "rip" a fart worth Romney, who couldn't "rip" a fart worth a "W"... thus ensuring that a rational Democrat will prevail.
Phinephancy, I respect your opinion but don't agree with you. The USA is a great country and offers great opportunity for it's citizens. And I wouldn't use the Arab Spring as a talking point I have an uneasy feeling about how that's going to work out. How do you think the women over there are going to be treated. Talk about oppression.
Sure they do Say.
In fact I had dinner in La Jolla last night, and all anyone could talk about was "Malibu Mitt."
What's the matter Say - just can't support your assertion that Mitt somehow cashed the 'banking' crash?
Color me surprised.
But I do like Patriotic's point about Mitt and the 1%-ers. Cause see Obama, Pelosi, Schumer, Reid, and even your beloved Elizabeth Warren are 1%-ers, so I guess they too must be pickpocketing the middle class.
And for goodness sake we all know Obama said whatever he had to to get elected. Just a couple oof my favorites were him saying he'd close Gitmo, and that raising the debt ceiling was a failure of leadership.
Any of you all got a spare $1 Trillion? Seems Obama is a little short this month.
lisa,
Yes, I too, worry about the oppression of women. And usually after a political upheaval the type of government that comes into place first is not good. However, how this relates to the US is this, we haven't seen anything like this in our nation's history for quite a while. The closest would be the robber barons at the turn of the 20th century. There ended up being much violence and many riots before laws were changed and unions (the early unions WERE good for the vast majority of Americans) became a force for the "upper classes" to deal with. Today there are becoming fewer and fewer opportunities for one to escape the class they are born into. Thus, the unrest. This is how movements like the tea party and Occupy start.
New game for the left- inspire fear.
It's actually not all that new- I seem to recall some insinuating that if Obama did not win in 2008, there might be race riots.
Now, we're threatened with the guillotine. Heck, Pat in Boston is actually going to tour the sites where the Bolshevics planned and carried out their revolution.
Then, we have the diversion ploy. This is used when there is bad news- if it isn't totally ignored on this site. So, the hike in the debt limit request? Let's talk about vacations spots! Or poetry!
Anything, but what a lousy president Obama is, and will be, until January next year.
Ya'll can call Romney anything you want- but, next year, you'll be calling him President.
Obama shelved in 2012.
Phinephancy, I came from a middle class backround. My dad worked six days a week for most of my life. I went to Community college at night after working all day. My husband worked two jobs for 17 years and I worked two jobs for 8 years.We did that so our children could go to college. I was a registered Democrat until 3 weeks ago. Then I became a NPA. I find it rather offensive that people today are not willing to make the same sacrifices.
Hey NOJO - you hear about the latest and greatest from our fantastic ATF?
White Gun, which sounds kinda racist to me.
Apparently some military grade weapons were 'misplaced' down Mexico way.
nojo,
I need to learn from history. Reading your tripe proves we need to improve our education system here. I should know better than to read what you post. It always proves you ignorance.
lisa,
I would register as NPA or Independent except in Ohio like many States in primaries you can only receive ballots that have members of your Party on the ballot. Otherwise I would be limited to Issues and Levies.
lisa,
Many do make those same kind of sacrifices today. I come from a lower middle class backround and worked very hard to make a better life for myself and my family. Same with my husband. And I also learned that you can only be beat down for so long that you have to stand up and fight. When !% of the population controls all the wealth, when the standard of living for the rest keeps falling. Something has to give. What do you think will happen? All the tax cuts to the job creators have yet to create a job - just increase their wealth. Jobs, to improve the corporations are people too bottom line, are shipped overseas. And guess what, if you don't have a strong middle class, there ain't no one to buy the products.
So says the alter ego of one of the most intellectually challenged posters on the board.
You really did not believe you were fooling anyone, did you?
Dennis, Columbus, Ohio, Thank you for your post. You know it felt good to switch and I understand why more and more people are doing it. Whoever wins the next election is going to need the support of the moderate voters. I am proud to be one of them.
nojo,
I am not trying to fool anyone. Just stating my beliefs. I am sorry you thing I am intellectually challenged. Others may agree with you. Others might not. Not my problem.
lisa & Dennis,
In Florida, Independent is actually considered a party. We do have NPA here. Mr. phinephancy is registered that way. I am going to change my status and register that way myself.
lisa,
I wish all States had “open” primaries where anyone can vote for anyone running for office.
No Joe,
You keep accusing without any proof. That does say a lot about you now doesn’t it.
Spanky, the stunning incompetence of this administration should not still shock me- but it does.
Good grief, even carter was not this big a screw up. I guess they thought it was just a brilliant idea to sell shoulder fired missiles to the Sinaloans. After all, what harm could it possibly do?
I suppose that's why his cult members are reduced to attempting to inspire fear, or, at the least, changing the subject. That's all they have left, poor souls.
Well, next year they can change the imaginary bar to an imaginary White House. It will be really cool- kind of a fantasy league for politics.
At least they'll stop destroying my country.
Come off it, Dennis. You know as well as I do that the Libs R Us kids all have alter egos- in violation of the rules, by the way.
Some of you are at least smart enough to change your writing style enough so that a cursory glance does not betray you.
Others are not.
And you know where the proof is, don't you?
Phinephancy I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree. But if you like history maybe you should read a little more about how Hitler came to power. He convinced a country to hate a certain segment of the population because they were wealthy. My Dad fought in the Battle of the Bulge and I'm skeptical about leaving that kind of world for my children and grandchildren.
Spill the beans NOJO - who is the poster?
Inquiring [and lazy] minds want to know.
No Joe,
“At least they'll stop destroying my country.”
Since when did the USA stop being “OUR” country?
Typical of conspiracy theorists – accuse without any solid evidence or even a hint of proof.
You make a fool of yourself as usual.
lisa,
You are, in a way, proving my point. (FYI, my family has fought in every American war since the Revolution). When there is violent, hate filled upheaval, we get the type of government we DON'T want - usually totalitarian. That's why I continue to hope that both sides will come together and do what Americans do best - compromise.
If you are familiar with the historian, Shelby Foote, in the mini-series the "Civil War" by Ken Burns, he talks about the fact that what really brought the war on was our inability to compromise (the state rights issues and slavery we can get into another time). Compromise is what has made us great. The lack of compromise is what hurts us now.
Nojo,
I have no alter ego. I follow rules. I wouldn't even no how to break them.
Excuse my spelling, KNOW how to break them. Heck, I even obey the speed limit signs.
Phinephancy, I have always been for compromise. I have seen the"Civil War" more times than I can remember. I am a supporter of Simpson-Bowles and not a fan of Citizens United. But I am not sure I proved your point. I am making homemade Stromboli for the game tonight.I hope it's a good game.
Dennis - are gun runner and now White Gun conspiracy theories?
Surely you do not support giving guns to narco-terrorists?
And while we are at it - you think it's good for the country to raise the debt ceiling again?
See, I'm firmly with 2006 Obama. Failure of leadership, plain and simple.
Spanky,
Dennis - are gun runner and now White Gun conspiracy theories? - NO
Surely you do not support giving guns to narco-terrorists? - NO
And while we are at it - you think it's good for the country to raise the debt ceiling again? – No Choice
See, I'm firmly with 2006 Obama. Failure of leadership, plain and simple. – Leadership includes Congress
lisa,
Pulled pork here in the phinephancy house. A true southern staple for football watching. Having no real team in the hunt, it is easier to watch!!! (Although I wouldn't mind a little "Tebow time" since he is from my town!)
Spanky,
You can be a sweetie sometimes, but your arguments lately haven't been well thought out. I'll argue about them next week. How's that for a compromise?
Spanky,
Stay on topic here this wonderful Saturday afternoon.
(NoJo paronia will just lead you to a dead end.)
You statement "Mitt's time as governor will be a much better target." is true for you conservatives.
But it was Romney's decision to run on his business experience and down play his expereince as governor during the primaries.
It was his super Pac that started the negative attack ads against Gingrich in Iowa.
Lo and behold, Romney's record as a venture capitalist, who only goal is to increase the return for those private placement investors ,is being examined. Jobs lost, jobs gained, pensions needing government bailout, closing of plants, state subsidies, this is the history of Bain Capitol.
I think he made a big mistake running on this experience in light of the real anger out in the country .
We are all living in the aftermath of a global recession because of the financial sectors overwhelming greed, lack of regulation and enforcement. And these titans of finanicial corporations of 1% had the hubris to lay the blame on the working class, the teachers, firefighters, snowplow workers, other government employees.
So does Romney pivot and talk about his record as govennor of a liberal state? Or run as a social/religious conservative ? He got a problem...
I agree Spanky, primaries are messy.
And as a liberal Democrat I am enjoying the GOP candidates trying to stay alive.
But in reality it is all about delegate count and Romney is leading today at 18.
And a Saturday shout out to NOJO:
I love FR posters ,they also talk about vacations, poetry, football, cars, even boating.
Having deep political views does not consume a well lived life.
Northstar,
Oh, well done!!! And I do hope you are living your life well today. :)
And I will go off topic with this, as many may have heard a large cruise ship sank last night off the coast of Italy. Almost a "Titanic" type or "Poseidon" type of accident. The hubby and discussed it for an hour today over lunch. Then when we got home, he pulls out the lap top to look at cruises for us to go on. Irony.
Phine,
Thank you.
I was sitting at my computer waiiting for my nails and toes to really dry ... had time to post the response .
Now I really need to start packing.
Saw the report about the cruise ship last night on Cruise Critic, my other favorite site. It was a terrible accident and so sad for the lost of life.Saw the reports from Italy on the news today.
Hey if you are looking for a cruise, I love Celebrity, their S class ships are fabulous.
Northstar,
We tend to favor Holland or Princess.
Dennis - I agree 100% about the failure of our leaders, but will have to agree to disagree on the no choice part.
There is always a choice. That is until there isn't because there are no lenders or money left out there to borrow. I for one really am not ready for New Dollars. I kinda like the ones we got.
Especially when dealing with the bloated, grossly wasteful, and totally incompetent government that we find ourselves with.
And Northstar - 'even boating?' I'll let that slide now because it's desert season. Me, I think I have to let my yzf 450 go and get either a quad or a RZR. Love the bike, but the older I get, the harder the grounds gets.
Spanky,
Thanks - The reason I say “no choice” is because we are already committed to spending levels for this FY and reducing spending now will result in more people losing their jobs further reducing revenue receipts which means cutting spending further … vicious circle. Cut spending slowly while we begin to increase jobs thus revenues.
Let's see. In no jo's strange little world, going to Russia, like millions of people do, including the Royal Family of Great Britain, makes you a Bolshevik, like, well, going to Italy makes you a Mussolini fascist? Is that what YOU are no jo?
Put your money where your mouth is. If you believe that any of us, or any one on this board is using multiple accounts, report it to Tyler or Sally. The contact information can be found on Newsvine. When you do that, and make a complete and utter fool out of yourself, come back here and apologize to all of us.
LOL!
Poor Donna - that didn't work out to well for her last time around! Remember, she was going to cost people their JOBS!!! lol
Rest assured Donna, the tree house gang is comprised of individuals - just ask Mark Murray... ;o)
I couldn't let this one go. First, yes the U.S. is a great country--that used to offer great opportunity. Some of us would like to restore that opportunity here.
Second, Lisa, how do you think Arab women have been treated for centuries?
Why should women anywhere in the world continue to live as oppressed second-class citizens? The only way that will ever change is if women change it. Life is short. We are all going to die. Sometimes we have to sacrifice ourselves for the common good, for a better life for our children and grandchildren.
Remember the American Revolution? The Civil War? Those people were willing to give their lives to make this country a better place.
My question is: are you?
Another correction:
Hitler convinced his country to hate a certain segment of the population all right, but not because they were wealthy, Lisa.
It was because they were Jews.
Rich Jews and poor Jews alike were gassed. It was religious persecution. No wealthy Aryans were targeted.
You really need to get that straight, because THAT is the lesson Americans need to remember.
Santorum and the others in the clown show are jokes. They are tearing each other apart and re-electing Obama. Thank you crazy clown show!
Candidates in a primary 'tearing each other apart?'
Get out! No Way!
Yeah, this is the first time that's ever happened.
See phinep - perspective is important. Loren here seems to be new to the political process.
Leona, don't worry about it, once you understand the history someone will rewrite it. it's called perspective
Leona, Loren - whatever, eh ideology?
And good golly my man, but has someone rewritten the 07-08 democratic primary?
No tearing apart back then. I'm sure that '3 a.m. phone call ad was by Hillary was totally meant to build Obama up.
Sure it was.
Spanky, my post in no way referred to you ... try watching football today, perhaps you will be less confused.
I'm watching the Saints mount a come back right now.
Your post was in reply to Loren's, but referenced Leona, and immediately followed mine, which addressed perspective.
Clarity.
to Loren; You are right ---it is a crazy clown show, but the crazy clowns are the members of the press and media. The announced candidates for President have never, NEVER, acted like clowns; Only clowns I see in the coverage of this campaign are 50 to 75% of the people who write these comments. The comments display ignorance, and an inability to write. It is not an honor to have gotten any of my comments published here. I wish I hadn't even joined in these absurd discussions. We are all in this together, folks, right wing and left wing, moderates (whatever in the hell that means), and total non-thinkers (there's plenty of them). Compromise? Over what? Taxes? A balanced budget? Despicable social welfare for the uncompromising poor? Occupiers? American ideals? Our nation is virtually withering from within. I'm 80, so I won't live to see it go any further.
It appears that Santorum is obeying the memo of not attacking Mr. Romney's Bain connection. However, he is willing to go after the former governor's time in Massachusetts. Wonder if the GOP establishment will like that any better?
The GOP establishment, headquartered at One Wall St., don't give a damn who beats up on who. They have already laid their bets on every horse in the race including President Obama.
What they don't want is to draw attention the the tactics and tax advantages the private equity funds enjoy.
"Go ahead and beat each other up, just don't do it in my yard".
There it is! I knew someone would finally do it! I figured it would be Gingrich first but, no, it's Santorum who finally calls Romney a Liberal!
No, folks, so many still do not like Romney in the GOP!
For some reason, the GOP race reminds me of the old comic strip "Bloom County", and how Bill the Cat and Opus were always running for President and VP.
I think it is more likely that Rick and the rest have seen the results of attacking Bain/capitalism.
Does not appear to be working so good. In fact it has caused many conservatives who would not otherwise support Mitt to rally to his, and of course capitalism's defense.
Capitalism is a great thing phnep. Simple fact is it is far and away the best system going.
Mitt's time as governor will be a much better target.
Spanky,
Sorry, but I still see the Bloom County strip where Opus dares someone to hit him the the "liberal" label (this was back in 1988). In one cell he dares folks to do that, in the next, liberal stickers were all over him and he was complaining that once on they never come off. Wonder if Santorum ever read "Bloom County" and is hoping for the same thing?
Our country is healing and we're heading upward from the very deep and very wide hole the Bush Administration dug for us... it's been a slow recovery, and we're not quite there yet, but we're heading in the right direction!
Obama is working for the middle class, he's on the side of hard working Americans and those less fortunate... we need a second Obama term to ensure our country is on solid footing. We need the Affordable Health Care Law which will enable every american an opportunity to acquire affordable health care... by the way which should be a right not a privilage; we need a large infrastructure plan which will put millions back to work; we need fair tax policy, tax breaks for folks making less that $250,000 and slightly higher taxes for those making a million+; and, we need to preserve Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, however some adjustments should be made, i.e. means testing and gradually increasing the eligibility age.
Obama stands for the above and with dems. out there campaigning and voting we can take back the house and increase our numbers in the Senate... then we'll see real change in this country.
On the other hand... if the GOP take over the white house be prepared to see the Affordable Health Care law be repealed, and we'll be once again at the mercy of big insurance companies; be prepared to watch Medicare and Social Security privatized; and, be prepared to see the tax rate for our dwindling middle class increase while the tax rate the the top two percent decrease...
Under a GOP led administration the middle class and our seniors will lose our safety net, we'll have higher taxes and we'll be reduced to accepting minimum wage jobs... and the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer!
THINK TWICE BEFOR YOU PLACE YOU VOTE...
Obama/Biden are for the 99% -- The GOP are for the 1%
Donna
Yea ... no we're not. Name one economic indicator effecting the middle class that is better today than it was in January 2009. Unemployment, price of gas, price of food, consumer confidence, GINI index (wealth gap), inflation / value of the dollar ... record numbers on food stamps, at the poverty level ....
In fact, just name something that effects the middle class that isn't worse now ...
Yea ... no we're not.
The recession started in December 2007. The average recession last 10 months with the longest in modern history lasting 16 month. The recession officially ended in June 2009 (18 months) yet everyone thinks we are still in one because there is no recovery OVER 4 YEARS LATER AND AFTER OBAMA RUNNING AN ADDITIONAL $5 TRILLION IN NEW DEBT.
No he isn't. He bailed out big banks, Wall Street, big government, big green, big unions .... he has done nothing for the middle class but blow smoke their butt.
Funny ... when Obama came into office he pledged to work on jobs, yet the first thing he did was healthcare. The first thing you mention is healthcare .... so clueless.
Btw - Having a job isn't a health issue?
America needs jobs ...
America needs a President with a clue.
Bob: you have a memory problem. It was Bush and the Republican Congress that passed TARP and bailed out the banks and Wall Street. Obama was the one who bailed Detroit out from bankruptcy and they've had a great stretch and paid back most of the loans.
Yea, Bush was a lame duck and since Obama would be left to deal with it, he included and put in what the new administration wanted.
BTW- How much did Wall Street make off the GM deal and the handling of the IPO? How much did Wall Street make off all that "quanitative easing?" Who benefited from Dodd-Frank?
Bob. My personal favorite is Congress is allowed trade stocks on the bills they write.
At this point we are out about $50 billion on GM.
Car Czar Rattner said about three weeks ago that it was never the intent to make the taxpayers whole.
Of course that sure is not what they said at the time, but I suspect they realize the loss in inevitable.
Bill the Cat and Opus the Penguin for President and Veep/ any year!!! Hooray Meadow Party! Berkley Breathed who created them for SecState!
Donnay, What are your standards for means testing? Would you penalize people who are already retired or were nearing retirement. Would there be means test for Medicare. Should people who actually saved for retirement be punished for behaving responsibly. I would be interested in hearing your opinion
By the way. Seems like the Evangelical Elite are having their backroom poker session and nominee selection in Texas this weekend. Guess they decided Democracy is just too messy and the voters may not elect who they had in mind.
Takes us back to the smoke filled rooms of yesteryear when your choice of the two presidential candidates was presented by the big city political bosses.
At least we didn't have to watch all those ads from the superpacs (I don't care which party). YUCK!!!
Everybody here has a cute quip or a snarky answer but I ask a legit question and nobody answers.
lisa,
Yes, you do have a legitimate question. I have no idea what Donnay's or Bob's opinions are on the subject. As for the candidates, well, this best answer I can give you is to go to Americans Elect - they look at ALL the candidates.
Or, be cute and snarky like me and pull for Bill the Cat and Opus!!!
Phinephancy, I know about the candidates I don't believe any of them. I just find it odd that when you want to have a legit discussion nobody wants to come out and play.
lisa,
I have found it is timing when one wants a serious discussion. I have no clue on that timing. And most of the other time it is a "mine is better than yours" type of play - sort of like a grade school sandbox.
And, FYI, if you get the chance, look up and read some of the old Bloom County cartoons. Lot's of fun, mostly written in the late 1980's. Will make you smile.
Hey lisa,
My primary issue with donnay is the mindless marginalization and disingenuous deflection.
Regarding Medicare and Social Security, she does the same .... decrying and mischaracterizing what the repubs would do while ignoring that it is in fact the liberals that are literally taking $500 billion out of Medicare through Obamacare and are defunding Social Security with Obama's "payroll tax cuts."
Regarding means testing, it ain't fair, but life ain't fair .... I don't like it, but something should be able to be worked with means testing.
Bob, I simply would like to know what the rules are. Wouldn't you like to know?
I never thought I would say it but I kind of agree with Santorum. I think what our country needs is a Presidential election race with two very different candidates so people have a real choice between two candidates. I could see how someone looking for a conservative candidate would have a hard time trusting Romney to remain true to the principles he espouses today. If a true conservative ran against the President, I think we would all see which direction the voters want us to go in.
I never thought I would say it, but I kind of agree with Steeler Fan ...
So do conservatives.
In fact polls say conservatives out number liberals 2-1 with independents leaning toward the conservatives.
Bob,
No snark here, serious question. Do you consider Santorum more of a true conservative than Romney? Really interested in your response, especially since the Christian conservative movement is now supporting Santorum.
Are you familiar with the term "Response Bias"?
Response bias is what happens when a respondent answers a question with what they believe the pollster wants to hear rather than their true beliefs.
Now, I'm not saying that is the case with whatever polls you are citing (and it would be nice if you'd give us examples of these responses) but to put it quite simply the modern mindset is...
"Conservative" = GOOD
"Liberal" = BAD
...or so we've been led to believe by the loudest of the chattering class...folks like Limbaugh and Beck and O'Reilly and Hannity.
So, how many of those who identify themselves as "Conservative" are doing so merely because they think it's what someone else wants to hear?
Better yet, how many are answering that way because it's what they'd like to think they are but really aren't?
Da Noid,
I have heard that same thing from pollsters when asked about their polling data. Chuck Todd, during the Obama/Clinton primary fight talked about "Response Bias". Great answer from you!
Sure Noid, conservative good, libbie bad.
Unless it's the media, which leans 'forward.'
How about this Noid - what percent would respond - 'ABSOLUTELY' to the question: Should we live within our means?
Or how many would say no to: Should we continue to accumulate $4billion in new debt per day?
Or: Who thinks a $15 Trillion debt is a good thing?
THe country continues to lean to the right.
Spanky,
Are you and nojo related? Go to the same schools? Just wondering.
Bill the Cat/Opus 2012
Spanky, I'm talking about the single question of "Do you identify yourself as Liberal or Conservative?"
I don't know bob's opinion, but Santorum is more of a social conservative than Romney. I think they are equally fiscally conservative.
The thing is, Romney has the experience necessary to make the changes necessary to get the economy growing, shrink the size and influence of government, and reduce the debt. I don't think Santorum does. Gingrich does, but he is his own worst enemy, and, therefore, cannot be elected. Even if by some weird stroke of fate he were, his lack of discipline would get in the way of his achieving anything worthwhile.
Do I agree with everything Romney supports? Nope. I'm no idol worshippers, and am free to disagree on certain things. It is, however, important to remember that when Reagan was confronted by a reporter about an incident where some republican had disagreed with him publicly on a policy, and, therefore, in the view of the reporter, at least, was no longer a supporter, Reagan's response was that someone who backed him 80% of the time was, in fact, a supporter.
It might behoove some of the Obama worshippers on this site to make note of that. It would make some of your comments a little more credible.
phinephancy,
Good question and in general, I would say Santorum is more of a true conservative. Regarding the Christian conservative movement, I could not be less interested.
I wish Santorum would focus on the main issues of the economy and national security, not social issues. I am more concerned with Dan and Don / Daniel and Donna having jobs, having a home than what word one uses to describe their union / relationship.
Regarding leaders in general, people seem to get caught up in conservative vs. liberal / dem vs. repub and forget the most important thing - representing their constituency - serving the will of the people - not their party.
Romney was a conservative in a liberal state. It seems he served his constituency fairly ... they wanted healthcare .... he served their will. I don't fault him for that.
Was it what conservatives in other areas felt was conservative ... no, but he did do the right thing, he did serve the majority.
This is my major complaint with Obama and Obamacare. If the majority had wanted Obamacare, if he had passed it without all the tricks and not forced it .... I could have accepted it.
Thanks for your comment phinephancy and have fun cooking up something great for Mr. phinephancy this weekend.
nojo,
That was one of your better replies (except for the snark at the end). I can truly respect why you are for Romney over Santorum. Very well thought out.
I will make you a deal, if you are willing. I will respect you and your opinions, if you will respect mine. No more name calling at each other. Can you do it?
Bob,
Thank you. Great answer, one I can respect. Nice proving we can talk without name calling. I call that "change we can believe in" At least on FR. LOL Again, thank you and nojo for your response. I will make you the same deal I offered nojo. I won't call names and be snarky with you if you will respect me the same way.
Bob,
And it is pulled pork for game time today!!!!
Then he wouldn't be Santorum. His irrational insistence on asserting his religious beliefs on society is part of what distinguishes him as a candidate.
This is truly one of Obama's strengths. He's practically ignored the radical left-wing of his party for three years, so much so that they briefly wondered if they shouldn't stage a protest at the convention over the summer. (I don't actually know how that effort ended up getting resolved, or is it still ongoing?) The only reason why Republicans in general don't see him as a kindred spirit is because the leaders of their party are utterly "nuts" (to quote Barney Frank), so even middle-of-the-road Republicans look like socialists by comparison.
What we really need is a true bridge builder... a Republican dedicated to lowering the deficit through reducing unemployment and increasing wages, willing to tell Wall Street, the Tea Party and the religious reactionaries to all go pound sand. The Democrats couldn't beat a Republican who seeks to more progressively tax the rich and force business to do the heavy lifting with regard to employment and wages.
bob---you are pointing out areas where reasonable people can differ and I think that is what we need more of. I wish our discourse here and in general allowed for people to disagree without being demonized. That goes for both sides.
Steeler Fan, Bob
AMEN!!! Now, who wants a pulled pork sandwich?
Hey no joe!
You did a better job than I did .... again!
Your second paragraph perfectly summed it up.
Maybe we can continue it Monday morning.
Have a good weekend.
Same school phinep - fiscal conservatism.
Although I know of NOONE that thinks $4billion in new debt added everyday is a good thing.
In fact I bet every single poster here lives within their means.
So why won't our congress critters?
Steeler fan, I couldn't agree more. I would welcome less discourse.
phinephancy,
Regarding snarks, please ... never, never, take one of my snarks personally.
Regarding pork ... have you ever had Coca-Cola brined / smoked ham with a brown sugar / coke / jalapeno glaze?
If you haven't - you might need to try it (it's incredibly better than it sounds.)
Spanky, Thanks again for last nights article on Tim Tebow.
Bob,
I willing to try any new recipe. You know, I remember my mom doing pot roast with coke. I bet the ham would taste great!
Spanky,
What article on Tim?
Phinephancy, Rick Reilly ESPN
lisa,
Thanks!!!! Oh, and the 49ers are playing tough today. But, don't count out Drew Brees and the Saints.
To quote Adam Smith talking about 'dealers' (i.e. businessmen):
"The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the publick, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the publick, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it . . ."
From "The Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations", Adam Smith, book 1, chapter 11, part 3
Just to be clear, I'm talking about an election where we agree that each candidate is eligible by virtue of his citizenship, each candidate is assumed to love his country and want what is best for it and we evaluate each's campaign platform in order to see which we think is best for our country. See, I believe all those things of Santorum. I may not agree with his positions and policies, but I believe he wants what is best for America. I also believe those things about President Obama, the difference being I think his ideas are better.
Well said, Steeler Fan.!!!
Santorum and Obama would offer a stark contrast alright. For example, Santorum wants to outlaw contraceptives and birth control while Obama doesn't.
Everyone says that but no one can show where he himself said he wanted or would ban contraception.
It is time for another exciting episode of "Darth Rove!" AKA. Karl Rove the GOP/RNC master of "Madness and Misinformation." This is a Progressive Power Production. The last time we left "Darth Rove" he was still in his GOP "Chamber Of Death" that is located under the "Nazis News Network." AKA. Fox News.
"DARTH ROVE MEETS THE ROMULIAN"
Scene One opens with. Darth Rove is sitting in large black metal chair reading the unofficial Bain Capital Reports. By the huge flames roaring from his large round pit of fire that is in front of his throne. Darth Roves' large throne is made from the bones of the Middle Class, the Working Poor, the elderly, and the disabled. His large GOP "Chamber Of Death" is painted in the blood of those that make less than $100,000 a year.
"Romulian Romney" enters Darth Rove's GOP/RNC "Chamber Of Death," and cheerfully states. "Hello Karl! I love what you have done with you room down here!
"Come on in Mitt! It is so good to see you, and I love your work at Bain Capital." Smiled Rove. Standing up from his throne as the fires from his pit roar into the air.
At the end of Scene One. "Romulian Romney" walks quickly uo to the pit of fire and replies. "Why thank you Karl! I am proud to be in the lead for the GOP Nomination for President."
Scene Two opens with "Darth Rove" glaring past the flames at "Romulian Romney. The Romulian is wearing his Romulian Military Uniform.
"Yes Mitt. This is great news! Karl removed his white hood from his head, and looked a closer at Mitt. "Oh my God! You really are a Romulian! Shockingly exclaimed Rove. Pointing his cane made from the leg bones of disabled US Military Veterans.
"That is right Karl!! Laughed Romulian Romney.
"How do you hide your pointed ears and eye brow so well??" Rove asked smiling with great evil in his heart.
"I have surgery done Karl to hide my real looks, and my true intentions for America!" Romney replied grinning greedfully.
"That is genius Mitt! I love it! I also like your stories you tell about how you care about the poor. Now that is funny!" Karl started laughing tapping his cane.
"I know! It is especially funny Karl when I tell the humans that I will help the Middle Class or create jobs for them." Laughed Mitt. Shaking his fist in the air.
"It is even more entertaining to read your record at Bain Capital! You destroyed so many corporations, and you destroyed so many lives! It is even better to read your tax returns Mitt! Shouted Karl. Shooting flames across his chamber.
At the end of Scene Two the laughing says. "The Tea Party think that I will be a job creator!"
Scene Three opens with Karl yelling as his eyes turned blood red. "It is even more of a joke that you are a true Conservative! Now that is just the biggest lie of all!"
Mitt then yelled back with great anger and pointed. "I am a great Conservative Karl!"
"Do not talk back to me. You pointed eared freak!" Ordered Rove. With fire spewing out of his mouth.
"That is it Karl! I am going to buy up your corporations, and then I will drive them into bankruptcy. Then I will fire all of your already under paid workers, and then outsource all of the jobs." Shouted "Romulian Romney. Rubbing his hands together with great evil.
Darth Rove pointed his cane at Mitt yelling. "Get out! Get out now!"
"Romulian Romney" turned away from Darth Rove and yelled back. "That is fine with me! Say goodbye to all your corporate investments Karl!" The Romulian started running for the chamber door.
"You better run for your life. You alien freak!" Ordered Darth Rove. Shooting flames over the head of the Romulian.
The Scene Three ends with Romulian Romney with the back of his head on fire. Running up the stairs and through the "Nazis News Network Newsroom." AKA. Fox News.
THE END
Santorum cannot possibly believe what he's saying.
Wait.
Let me rethink that in light of all the things Santorum has said already.
Okay.... never mind.
This from a guy who lost his Senate seat in a landslide.
Right. Blue-tinged battleground states like New Hampshire. Santorum did really well there.
As much as I'm loathe to agree with Santorum on any point, I think he has a point about electability, even if he's failed to substantiate it. When it comes to electability, you've got to consider three main things: policy, personality, and background.
On personality, Rick wins. Not because he's especially likable, but because even Al Gore would beat Romney on personality. Rick may say some aweful things, but at least he doesn't sound like a robot. He's got a thin skin, but Romney's is more like tissue paper. Edge Santorum.
On background, you've got a guy with a blue collar history who worked his way into a cushy government job and promptly sold out to become a millionaire: the American dream. In Romney, you've got a Wall Street fat cat born with a silver spoon in his mouth who made a massive fortune funneling money from the middle class to the already rich to make them richer. If the Tea Party and the Occupation movements have an ounce of ideological credibility that means anything in this election, Santorum's background is the one to have.
Then there's policy. Now here is where you'd think Mitt would have the edge, a perceived moderate (which is only a bad thing in a nomination battle) vs. an extreme religious conservative. But I think the conventional wisdom is wrong here. Look back to McCain: he was considered a moderate and he had to spend the entire general election pandering to the hard right to get his base out, which cost him any shot at the middle and the victory. Bush? Anything but a moderate, but he was able to paint himself as one. Why? Nobody was questioning his conservative bone fides like they were with McCain (and they were only questioning McCain because Bush's PR team had done such a great job of smearing him, much like they later teamed up with McCain to smear Romney). If Romney wins the nomination, it could be a redux of the McCain campaign, with right wind pundits attacking him, jumping on any effort to take a moderate stance, and forcing him to continue playing to the hard right like he was still in a nomination battle. Santorum? He'd get a pass, and he'd likely be allowed to talk about manufacturing and the middle class without being attacked as a RINO from his own corner. So, even there, Santorum I think would have an edge.
Going for Reagan Democrats? No! Reagan Democrats are now Republicans and they have been mostly middle-of-the-road players until Bush two corrupted the playing field. And calling out Reagan's name is not working either, since Reagan is dead and these generic contenders have none of Reagan's charm or oral command. The thrust is a three way pull with the TEA party squandering a golden opportunity post their smashing win in 2010. Rather, they passed numerous anti-abortion laws nationwide. Now there three segments fighting each other. It has been very entertaining since they started dancing. And Judson Phillips boldly declared, “The Tea Party will never rally behind Mitt Romney.” The "Anyone but Romney" crowd have help splinter the once proud party of Lincoln. Then there is the GOP, the party of Teddy Roosevelt, which was once progressive to the point of "Trust Busting" and increased regulation of business. Now this portion has squandered their opportunity to effect great legislation. Then there is the Republican section, once proud Reagan-ites whom have been seriously compromised by the other radical divisions and therefore failed to produce any jobs legislation they ran on in the 2010 election. Once proud, now split and leader-less they wander the Iowan countryside seeking solace from those just as split. President is more than stump talking, as he was very instrumental in taking out of extremist like Osama Bin Ladin as well as authorizing assistance to the European Union to help remove Moammar Khaddafy while passing the great legislation in last Congress. The president authorized the number two leader of Al Qaeda, Atiyah abd al-Rahman, to be killed on August 22 in Pakistan, a senior U.S. official said. There have been 3 or 4 more high level hits authorized to cut the head off of this scourge to the Middle East! Leadership is the president's! A total of seventeen by some counts!
According to a 2012 Pew Forum poll of members of the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) 98 percent said they believe in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and 97 percent say their church is a Christian religion. Mormons have a better understanding of Christianity than any other denomination, according to a 2010 Pew Forum poll.
11 of the signers of the Declaration of Independence (including several presidents) were non-Trinitarian Christians. If some South Carolina voters now insist on their narrow Trinitarian and salvation only by grace definition of Christianity for candidates for public office, they are doing our Republic an injustice.
None of them are electable.
The President shows great self control - in smiling without laughing.
Any of them ( Republicans) are electable..never forget the power of hate...and dont forget this county elected Bush for a second term even after it was shown the reasons for the war in Iraq were false,..,it doesnt get much dumber than that..no wonder China will soon own us..
Santorum is a joke. Romney is the only real threat to Obama. I voted for Obama. I won't vote for Romney. I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. I'm not impressed with Obama although I don't think his actions mattered with the right against anything he said or did. Regardless, I would like a better choice than either of these. I think we're starting to see the man behind the curtain in terms of how our country is run. It's a damn shame and probably too late to do anything about it. Big money and mega corporations own the U.S. The distractions of the extraordinarily nasty politics of the day just serve to hide that fact and distract people.
Actually I just made my decision; for the first time in 40 years I'm not going to vote. Screw the "lesser evil". I'm not voting for any evil and that's all there is to choose from.
If you are a responsible citizen, you don't have the option of choosing to not influence the election. Regardless of how you try to evade this reality, not voting instead of voting for the lesser evil has the same impact as casting a vote for the greater evil.
While it is all well and good that Ricky S brings up the image of his poor old grandfather coming to the U.S....he did forget to mention that that same grandfather, as with all the rest of the family in Italy, was Communist.
Somehow THAT gets overlooked when he speaks of his grandfather.
Michael,
If his grandfather came here, he probably wasn't a communist.
Most immigrants came to this country to get away from that.
I'm sure you'd rather continue with that little fairy tale though.
lol
Santorum vs Romney .....not unlike the Pope covering up details of married Bishops and priests molesting children.
wow. the kool aid is strong today.
So how much kool aid having you been drinking today Leona?? America thinks way too much already!
"America thinks", you say?? haha
First of all....YOU don't speak for America.
Second , why is it that you liberals only love free speech when it's one of your own speaking?
ANSWER: you liberals are a bunch of FASCISTS.