Lynette: Your statement, "No one is responding to you Ryan about the morality of abortion because no one has the right to call anyone moral or immoral. WE are not God, and we should not be judging people based on their own opinions and circumstances." Do you mean to argue that we, as a population have no right to legislate against the offense of murder? Of course we do! We must, in order to maintain civilization. Please, no more arguments that a law against abortion would be tantamount to forcing one's own religious or "moral" views on anyone. Is the baby being destroyed not a human life???

Chris - the "troops" don't set policy. Period.

Ryan, abortion will be debated back and forth till the end of time. The fact is, nobody is "pro-abortion". Nobody wants to abort all fetuses from wombs. The only thing "pro-choice" people say is that the government cannot tell a woman who has been raped that her punishment for being raped is to carry the baby for 9 months. This is what is called a nuance. Liberals believe in nuances. Neocons believe in a black and white world where people are either "good" or in the "axis of evil". So to answer your question, no, abortion is not moral. But it is at times necessary. If you say that you are willing to accept these nuances, then I'm willing to meet you in the middle.

Ryan-How is lying to the American people about why we are going to war a moral act? How is having relationships with teenage pages a moral act? It seems to me there are a lot more republicans out there that are immoral, but yet the religious right always vote for them. I think people that speak about morality might want to rethink their picks for the politicians of the free world. I also thought that Jesus taught love for one another...doesn't that include gays and god forbid those people who might have a porn under their mattress?

!, if you don't care about what the troops want, then perhaps you should stop running around saying "don't worry troops! We're here to save you! We know you want to come home and stop fighting!". I hear that all the time from the politicians, as well as other people on the streets. When the troops say "hey, we just want to win this war, and be given time to do it", they are told by the anti-war crowd "well, shut up, it's not your opinion that counts".

Asad: Conservatively, around 2,000,000 abortions are performed legally in this country. That sounds to me as if they are not taking place merely by "necessity". The "right" to abort babies is the sacrament of the Democrat Party. The Democrats must not lose that right! Disagree with me?

hey ryan, the really poor shape that america is in is because of the hypocracy of the religious right. Like the evangelical minister Haggard telling us gays were bad as he saw a male prostitute. Or Spokane mayor Jim West who voted against pro gay ammendments because they were immoral and yet was caught in a gay chat room dating men. Or the creep mark foley who chaired the house committee on exploited and abused children and we all know what that piece of dirt did. Or Newt Gingrich who tried to hide the fact that his first wife got an abortion as he handed her divorce papers in her hospital room.. Very moral individual, oh I forgot he is part of the religious right. He's excused. You want me to tell you why abortion is immoral? After you tell me why it's not immoral for the catholic church to hide the fact that priests have been abusing children in America for the last century. I look up to no one today. Am I going to look up to a priest or a congressman or a rabbi or a minister as he's raping my three year old? The most moral people in this country today and the only people I look up to are the ordinary Americans who live day by day and don't criticize other people's lives and comment on their moral character. I guess you're not one of us. Go run a parish and lie to us all, you're suited to that behaviour

The cognitive dissonance in the minds of many on the right, caused by their 'pro-life/pro-war' and 'war for freedom/slavery to war' thinking, must be making them positively psychotic. It is evident that in many at the highest seats of power this now transcends mere utilitarian hypocrisy as a personality trait, to a truly twisted psyche enabling the condition of true Orwellian double-think. Boehner's contrary actions of crying at the thought of soldiers suffering unnecessarily in a previous war, and then arguing for the escalation of more soldiers, some sure to unnecessarily suffer, in the current war, is a clear indication of this.

Asad - I give you a great amount of respect for your last post. Amongst all the name calling (from both sides) and half-truths you posted something logical and constructive. I would join you in accepting a ban on abortions except in the cases of rape, incest, and a mother's health which only account for about 2% of abortions performed in America. You are right that conservatives tend to live in a world of black and white with a little bit of gray and liberals live in a world of gray with a little bit of black and white.

D Nicholls: Not "pro-life/pro-war", but "pro-life/pro-security". Will you not defend your stance on maintaining the right to kill your children?

Chris: "We went into Bosnia in 1993. We're still there, but we gained something." I agree. We went into Bosnia to prevent "ethnic cleansing". This was a "just war". My criticism of Clinton at the time, was that he waited too long to intervene. ----- Why are we in Iraq? To destroy/confiscate WMD's? There were none. Bush lied about WMDs. Are we "promoting Democracy" ? DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH !! Bush is trying to set up a puppet state in Iraq in order to steal their oil and control the Middle East. (Look at Egypt and Jordan, American lap dogs) Do you really think we're throwing away thousands of our soldiers lives and billions of dollars so that the Iraqi's can decide their own fate? To decide who will control their oil? I don't think so. The war is for permanent bases, oil and the chance to loot the Iraqi economy. Oh ! .... the Civilian Provisional Authority set up a "flat tax" for the Iraqis !! Ain't Bush wonderful ???

lloyd - I will answer your question, even though ryan might answer it from his point of view as well. All of the incidents you cited are immoral. I think that almost anyone would agree with that. I don't think anyone is disputing that those events you cite are immoral. None of them are excused. I don't really hear or see anybody excusing them. I believe that abortion is immoral because I believe that life begins at conception and thus abortion would be tantamount to murder. That's why I believe that it is immoral. I understand that many people differ with me on when life begins and that is fine. I just hope you can see that if you believe that life begins at conception as I do then you would have to believe that abortion is murder and should not be allowed.

Chris - one last time: the troops don't set policy. Politicians do. "run around" and say anything you want. Nobody asked their opinion if they wanted to be deployed three times, but now you're all worried about hurting their feelings by bringing them home. I don't ever recall saying "don't worry." There's plenty to worry about, like a fascist take over of the US government, or, GAY MARRIAGE!

chris, as I recall President Bush wanted to pull troops out of Bosnia. No nation building. He did not pull troops out of Bosnia. He did call for a pre-emptive war in Iraq.

Yo, Chris from Abalene, just what war is it you want us to win.. I thought Bush told us three years ago mission accomplished, is that the war you want us to win. Usually you start a war with people that attack you. Just for a quick fact check in case it wasn't reported in the papers down in Texas. We were attacked on 9-11-01 by 19 hijackers. 15 of the 19 were from one country, Saudi Arabia. Not one was from Iraq, not one. Is that the war that you want the troops to win. That's certainly not the war on terror. Because if it is, we went to the wrong place. But I forgot, Bush is friends with the Saudis and Saddam dissed his father. I guess that's the war you want us to win, the war where George Senior got dissed. You know the other day I was thinking just what George W. would have been if it wasn't for his poppy and family. An old Glen Cambell tune comes to mind, "I'm just a lineman for the county". No disrespect to linemen

And the Academy Award for most convincing Chicken Hawk war mongerer in the "hey, look! That politician REALLY cares!" category goes to......

D, the real problem here is the hyperbole. Some hard-core activist can probably give you an astonishingly large number of rape cases in this country the same way you gave me the 2000000 number. I agree that abortions are not moral and should be avoided. However, you have the argument about "rights" reversed. Democrats believe that the government doesn't have the "right" to tell raped women that they MUST carry babies. Again, nuance versus hyperbole.

Ryan - Morality has no place in the legal system. Each one of us is responsible for determining our own moral code by which we live. Some people turn to religion for the blueprint, while others follow what their parents have taught them, and still others find their own moral path. What I may consider immoral, my neighbor may not. In most situations, neither one of us is right and neither one of us is wrong. The land of the free, kiddo - that means we get to make up our own minds, not blindly follow what other people tell us is right or wrong. You think abortion is immoral? Great. I don't share your position, actually I completely disagree with it, but it's your right to have it. Why not try giving those with whom you disagree that same respect?

Compulsory childbirth! That is what this country needs! Everyone knows it is a womans fault when she seduces a man into sex with her, therefore, she must be the sole bearer of consequenses for her actions. A man is meerly a slave to his hormones. Women are temptresses, they tease and inflame mens desires. So, obviously, abortion is immoral. With no consequences, women might actually achieve some equality, they might even (gasp) speak their minds without fear of retribution. Without compulsory childbirth, the war machine may grind down for lack of fuel.

Actors can cry on cue by thinking of the time their childhood dog was run over by a truck.

Asad: Look it up, try the Planned Parenthood site. Around 2,000,000 every year. I challenge you. The Democrats believe they must keep this "right" to chose to abort their children. Think about it! Why do they have to keep this right? D Nichols: Cognitive dissonance??? How does the Democrat reconcile promoting the destruction of innocent children at the whim of the parents with demanding the saving of the life of a convicted child-murderer? That sounds insane to me!

Sierra/lloyd, if we just wanted oil from Iraq, we had the chance to buy cheap oil when we sided with Saddam against Iran. As for the WMD, there was intelligence being spread around for years about Saddam's interest and activities in acquiring chemical and biological capabilities after his initial stocks were destroyed...not to mention the stocks that stood unaccounted for after the 1991 war. The intelligence turned out to not be as accurate as we thought. Regardless of why the war was started, we're there now. We need to attempt to finish what we started. I feel that if this became an international goal, we can get somewhere. Unfortunately, the many European governments won't touch Iraq with a 10 foot pole, and the UN is looking the other way saying "we didn't start it". Great...very helpful.

!, I understand the troops don't set policy. You missed my point. The politicians and people love to talk about how the poor troops want to come home, etc. Then when any of them speaks their mind to the anti-war crowd about staying to finish, they are told to shut their mouth, and who wanted their opinion anyway?

H, Florida: Are you implying that I should have the right to kill my wife? What is the difference? Someone please honestly tell me that abortion is NOT the destruction of a life!!!!! Please, I'm begging you!!! Convince me that a woman should have the right to choose to destroy her child. Please!

I worked for a Planned Parenthood so I guess I'm doomed to go to hell. Oh well. LOL. Funny thing is? PP didn't do as many abortions as they did educating women on birth control and doing pap smears as well as giving birth control out. I love how the right always says PP only does abortions. You have it all wrong. I worked there, saw it with my own two eyes. I know what I saw. And I saw women helping women to become successes in life, by educating and being proactive in that teenager or young adults harmonal life.

Boehner's tears are as phoney as his sun tan! Some people posting here lead you to believe that no Republican women are having abortions. If these people would open their eyes they would see that Republicans are like Democrats and Independents. All of them like sex, some people lie, steal, peddle influence,cheat on spouses,these are all human traits.

I hear the Sheep calling in nebraska..RyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaN.RyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaN.RyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaN.

According to the counter insurgency manual Gen. Petraeus finished writing in July we'd need another 1.4 million soldiers in Iraq to stop the insurgency. That's just the insurgency not a war worse than civil war as the NIE now calls it. The escalation has no chance of succeeding. We're throwing good lives and good money after bad so John Boehner and Sam Johnson don't have to admit political defeat. They're already complicit in the military defeat and desperately hoping to place elsewhere. Sick. Sick. Sick.

Ryan, Michigan... I am one of those who you would define as a "leftie" however I agree with you that abortion is immoral. I just do not think that morals can always be legislated. The only way to prevent abortions is to prevent unwanted pregnancies which has to be taught at the family level (except in cases of rape, etc.) Unfortunately you are right, the country is rotting from the inside out, and it is due, in great part, to the lack of morals. However, this war has become immoral as well, we have opened Pandora's box and have no way of closing it. More troops only opens it wider. However, I must say, you really stirred it up today Ryan. I always enjoy your posts even though I rarely agree with them. At least they are well thought out and not full of vindictiveness as I often see from others on both sides.

Carrie, I cant really disagree that morallity is a personsal choice and yet I disagree with the idea that morals have no place in the legal system. First of all laws are based on morals; murder, rape, sexual assault and you can go on and on. So if somebody wants to take part in these actions are they excused just because it didnt go against their moral code? How would their even be legal system in place if rules of morallity werent part of the system? The leagal system cleary states what is acceptable (right) behavior and what is unacceptable behavior (wrong). I agree with Ryan in Michigan that all those things Asad cited are clearly immoral acts done by human beings. Asad I can also agree with yo that there is a grey area when it comes to rape and abortion. Asad I also appeciate your post in that common ground between the left and the right in somewhere in the middle and that resolutions take debate.

Ryan, having served as Deacon, Elder, and board member of my local church I do in fact feel my faith is under attack. Every day I'm told that my beliefs aren't Christian enough to pass muster. I find that personally offensive, especially coming from others who consider themselves Christian. I am also American. As such I recognize that our society requires a fair amount of tolerance for those with other opinions. Some religions recognize life as beginning even before conception. Others recognize life as beginning at birth. In our American society why should the beliefs of those who believe life begins at birth by subjugated to the beliefs of those who believe that life begins at conception. It is with prayerful consideration that I have concluded war has no winner. We brand the side that loses the least as the winner and move on with all sides having lost. To me it is deeply immoral to wage war on a country because they might, at some indeterminate time in the future, try to attack us. We went to Afghanistan to defend ourselves. We went to Iraq to put them down. Now it is necessary to continue this action which to me is immoral in order to seek political gain for some. For me this is even more loathesome. You and other conservatives are welcome to your opinions, but please do not brand me immoral because I don't believe as you. As you can see I have put a lot of thought and prayer into my liberal positions. Conservatives do not own Christ and I find it blasphemous to suggest they do. Ryan, please do not consider the most serious of these comments to be directed at you, normally you are respectful and thoughtful in your comments. D, if the above doesn't answer your challenge too bad.

Oh Chris,, C'mon on! What bull! "Then when any of them speaks their mind to the anti-war crowd about staying to finish, they are told to shut their mouth, and who wanted their opinion anyway? " When have you seen this? When have you heard anyone tell a soldier to "shut his mouth"? You present this as if 100% of the troops are begging to stay 20 years, if that's what it takes. I don't believe it. I don't think you believe it. I'll bet the majority would drop their arms and leave today if offered the choice, but you miss my point: It's not their choice, whether they have an opinion, or not? Ever been in the service? You're more than welcomed to your opinion, and command is more than welcome to ignore it. Been that way in armies for thousands of years, my friend.

I find the occupation in Iraq to be highly immoral and the way that the lies were used in the forceful runup of the war to be immoral. I find the continued reasoning for our continued, unwanted prescence to be immoral. I find the war profiteering and the half a trillion dollars taken from the true needs of our nation and put into the pockets of the already sickeningly wealthy to be immoral. I find our military comanders staying in the gilded palaces that symbolized the previous regime to be immoral. I find the CEO's of so many companies making hundreds of times more than the average employee, let alone the lowest paid employees to be immoral. I find the Republican rubberstamping of these things, with no effective oversight to be immoral. I find the President, again lieing and trying to make a case for attacking Iran to be immoral......the list goes on and on, so much so that what one woman chooses to do with her own body, and the reproductive freedom that she has, to have or not to have a child, and the mechanisms in place to help her make those choices and to effect them, such as contraception, fertility clinics, and yes, abortion, are not even in the same class. One could as well argue that going to a fertility clinic is immoral as well, as our planet is already evidencing the fact of overpopulation. Abortion immoral?, that would have to depend on the reason's that it is done for, and no one, repeat NO one should make that decision other than the woman involved. To force the decision upon her, by ANYONE ELSE, would be much more immoral. Personally, since I am buddhist, I feel that God is not going to allow a fetus to be inhabited with a soul if he knows (and he would and does)that the woman will be going through the traumatic learning experience of having to decide upon an abortion in the first place, God is Not so cruel. Only humans are so cruel as to force a woman to carry to term the child of a rapist, or one that is malformed or genetically disabled. Only humans are so cruel as to force a woman and child to be locked into poverty because the woman was not able to enforce her own, responsible, decision to wait until she was financially stable enough to be able to properly provide for her child and herself. Only humans are so cruel as to have an elite, uber-wealthy, minority segment of the population, shielded to the realities of the rest of the populace, make the decisions that affect the health and wellbeing of the entire populace, based upon their own, twisted OPINIONS of propriety that are totally divorced from the facts on the ground. For them to make decisions that serve only to enrich themselves and their comrades and to keep themselves in power over the rest of the populace, through enforced poverty and emotional segmentation, THAT is what I find to be immoral. Not the agonized choice of a woman exercising her reproductive freedom of choice. That is not even in the same class and should not be what is being discussed here. The immorality of the occupation in Iraq and the Republicans backing it, shedding a crocodile tear in their attempt to bully the people who are trying to exercize true responsibility in this area, THAT is what is being discussed here. To bring up another, unrelated, subject to try to turn the discussion from it....that too is immoral and indefensible.

Chris, Abilene, TX. I hear you bro and the guys I know and served with that are fighting over there just want to win as well. I don't pretend to speak for all of our fighting men and women just the ones I know. The problem with the majority of this crowd on this blog is they will take whatever message they want and under the guise of patriotism and twist that message to suite their own personal hatred for Conservatives, Rove, Republicans, Bush etc. If some of them took the time, put their hatred aside and looked at the issues with a clear head would see how insane they appear to the majority of Americans. But it will never happen they are blinded by rage and party loyalty. The best part about some of them is what they post. They come up with these "theories" with no facts or proof to support these "theories". And when you challenge them on their "theories" they come up with additional "theories" not based on fact or proof to support their original "theory" not based on fact or proof. It is insane but it's also quite funny. Take heart they don't represent the majority of the nation, they think that because 70% of Americans do not support the war that the same 70% of Americans are filled with the same hate and vile as them. You know how the old saying goes “misery loves company”. So if you're bored and you want some comic relief just post here from time to time and watch the fire works unfold...I have never seen them not respond to being called out. It's impossible for them not to fire back with everything they’ve got I think they would suffer from spontaneous combustion if they tried to ignore an opposing post. So sit back and enjoy because here they come.

D, as you requested from the Planned Parenthood web site: "Abortion ends a pregnancy before birth. It occurs naturally in 15–40 percent of all established pregnancies — when an embryo or fetus stops developing and the body expels it. This is called spontaneous abortion, miscarriage, or early pregnancy loss. Women choose abortion in less than 25 percent of the 6,000,000 pregnancies that are diagnosed in the U.S. every year — 50 percent of which are unintended. This is called induced abortion. " That would be a maximum of 1,500,000 abortions per year. Still an unsettling number. Most vehement opponents are just as strongly against any form of contraception, but they softpedal that position because it's offensive to about 85% of the populace. Now who's the hypocrite?

Ryan Nebraska - You continually try to sidetrack a conversation about the occupation of Iraq into a debate about the morality of abortion. I will make you a deal. You tell me how cherry picking intelligence to manipulate the country into a bigger quagmire than Viet Nam is moral. You tell me how leaving New Orleans in its current state for over two years, causing untold suffering (some of those people are Christians by the way) is a moral act. You tell me how covering up a Repuplican pedophile in the halls of Congress is a moral act. Tell me how cutting veteran's benefits while screaming "support the troops!" is a moral act. Tell me how slashing medicaid and medicare - a service that our societies most vulnerable members rely on for basic medical care - while trying to make tax cuts for the top 1% of Americans permanent is a moral act. If you want to base your values vote on one issue go ahead. But if you want to play "let's compary the poltical party's values" game, Democrats win every day of the week and twice on Sunday. PS> Abortion is wrong. But so is telling a 16 year old who made a mistake that her life and all of her hopes and dreams are now over because of that mistake. That's my opinion anyway.

!, I figured you'd come back with something saying "ever been in the service?". And yet, those who are in the service saying what I'm saying are often told "well, just because you're in the service doesn't mean anything"...blah blah blah. Let me guess, you're going to come back and say "you don't know anything because you never served". Fine, just goes to demonstrate how much you don't know.

Mad Mike, thanks. I think if most of the people on here would go to an Army post, or go to an FOB, they'd get a VERY different viewpoint. It's easy to sit here in the US and SEARCH for vets who are disgruntled and then believe that 80% of those in the military or served feel the same way. It's more likely the other way around. ! said that he thinks the vast majority of the troops would drop their arms and go home if given the choice...I say NO WAY.

Ryan from Michigan: I think your comments re. right and left need to be modified. Both conservatives and liberals live in a world of gray with a little black and white. Conservatives just delude themselves into believing otherwise. They gravitate to black and white characterizations of the very complicated, nuanced problems in our world b/c it makes their heads hurt to think about them in a more sophisticated way. Plain and simple. Furthermore, regarding the abortion debate, who deemed conception to be the point at which human life begins? Could one not argue that it begins at the formation of the egg or sperm, both containing half the genome of a fetus? Could human life begin at about 4-5 months gestation, when the nervous system comes online, that is, when the fetus becomes aware of the world around them (and perhaps when what Catholic doctrine calls ensoulment happens)? The fact is, no one knows when life begins. Jesus, unfortunately, did not take a position on this issue... at all! He did not mention it once, even tangentially. If you argue that such issues simply did not exist in His time then we should all admit the Bible is less than comprehensive and an imperfect guide for moral living in the 21st century. So fine, the Bible doesn't mention abortion, per se, tell me what material contained in it will give me guidance in evaluating when, exactly, human life begins so that I know when it is and is not ok to snuff it out. E.g., am I killing if I masturbate? If I have an abortion at 3 mos. or at 6 mos.? You people on the right need to accept the fact that even your God has not answered these questions unequivocally, so your surety regarding your belief that all abortion is murder is unfounded. And Ryan, you should read your Bible, and Deuteronomy specifically. The punishment for causing the death of a pregnant women is outlined. Death is the sentence if the woman dies and a minor fine is required if the fetus dies. This does not, to me, seem as if God (and I'm an atheist so I mean the figment of your imagination called God), thinks that a fetus and a human life have equivalent moral standing. Certainly, he does not expect us to live up to standards He does not, does he? Important to note, as well, that the fact that there was, indeed, a punishment for killing the fetus in Deuteronomy. This can mean one of two things: 1) God, indeed, accords the fetus moral standing or 2) punishment for death of the fetus is a way of avenging the loss suffered by the woman and has nothing whatever to do with avenging the death of the fetus. I suspect the latter to be the case. Regardless, Ryan, your postion and that of others like you is not supported by your own religious text. Certainly, the Bible does not obsess about this matter like modern Christians do. I only wish abortions-zealots would spend as much time advocating for the poor like Jesus did. Why don't you Pro-lifers take the time to actually read "the Word" as Jesus instructed you instead of having it spoon-fed to you by your preacher and maybe your priorities might come more in line with Jesus' and not those of the modern religious-industrial complex.

John Doe, to be fair, the intelligence Bush used to go into Iraq existed for years before he ever became President. On another note, I agree with you that abortion is wrong, but we can't just let single moms get run over either. There has to be a "better way".

If only Boehner had given as much passion to making sure the Congree did its checks and balances job instead of annointing Bush the Mad.

The crocodile tears from the GOP about 'sacrifice' is as meaningful as their lack of willingness to open the topic up to real debate. The GOP is not interested in the Iraqi people, and they are not interested in democracy. They offer nothing new, and no real reason for our being an occupying army oppressing the population of Iraq.

Hear, hear, John Doe. Well said.

Well John Doe if that is your real name, if you call cherry picking recieving intellegence about WMD in Iraq, giving that information to all the decision makers in the govt. both dems and reps alike and then deciding to go to war supported by both parties. As far as New Orleans is concerned that would be everyone involved taking the blame for that, it was and still is failure on all levels to do what needs to be done to clean up N.O. I personally will not back somebody solely on political lines and I understand clearly that there are shady characters on both sides. I also dont think that little 16 year old girl dreams would be over, thats a pretty bleak way of looking at it. I guess it boils down to weather we want to make people resposible fot their actions or do we want to continue with this it feels good do it mentallity. My fiance had her daughter when she was 16, and not only were her hopes and dream not destroyed, her daughter became her hopes and dreams. I would hate to see the world through your pesimistic eyes John Doe and I certainly couldnt imagine life without that beautiful little girl.

Chris, Abilene - That intel did indeed exist for years prior to this administartion. But it was this adminstration that chose to take that intel and present it -out of context- to justify an incredibly ill advised war. As for single mothers being "run over", I am not sure what you mean. I would say that a 16 year old (or really any woman who may not be planning a child) caring an accidental pregnancy to term is not a bad thing. However, FORCING women to cary unwanted pregnancies to term most definately is not a good thing. Abortion should be legal, safe, and, most of all, rare.

Chris, Abilene, TX Good points all of them. Many on this blog would be laughed out of a military blog. The majority of thos who post here are very similar to those who oppsed WW2 or even as recently Reagan's victory over the U.S.S.R. They just don't get it and you really don't hear a lot about those who opposed the aforementioned wars just like you won't hear a lot from these people after we experiance victory in Iraq. So until then I reccomend you just sit back and amuse yourself with them like I do.

Since this has been turned into a debate on abortion I will make one simple statement IF ROE v WADE IS OVERTURNED IT WILL SPLIT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WIDE OPEN!!!

The original topic was about Rep. Boehner and the Iraq war. Since I cannot follow the logic from there to talking about abortion, I have decided I am.....

Chris - put words in my mouth and then tell me how wrong they are. Learn that from the master, himself? "Denigrate. Obfuscate. Reiterate." Tell Karl I said: "Go Cheney yourself."

Mad Mike--Welcome back. I thought you had been incarnated by some of the new names here that name call and insult. You keep asking for facts but I have not seen many facts from your posting. I believe in the past I have blown some of your facts right out of the water.

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