A union canmake it easier for workers to bargain at the bargaining table for better pay, safer working conditions, better health care and retirement, just to name a few. There is a close correlation to decline of unions and the state of working America today and increase in ceo pay, the repubs love it.

You can also make the case that because of unions the Big Three became healthcare companies that sold automobiles on the side. This didn't work out so well for those union employees since most of them aren't employees anymore. Their pensions have been raided and their lavish healthcare benefits are now being stripped away. Oh, well it was fun while it lasted.

Retired Union Man. Wow... yes the 1000 or so CEO's in the country all make 500 million a piece. Come on sir go to yahoo finance type in company names and look at what the majority of CEO's make. The majority of them make between 240,000 and 800,000. Now while that is a lot of money to you and me it's not enough to support an argument that CEO's make all the money therefore there's no money left for the little guy. The only way that would be possible is if every CEO made billions each and that's just not the case. Also, take a look at how mismanaged Unions are it's pathetic (not all but most). Problem is trade workers are a dying breed in America. The larger problem is many of them won't adapt to the changing enviroment that we call capitalism. Success is there if you want it if you work for it but be smart about your career choices, if you work for a production plant you can count on your job eventually not being there. If you work as a computer programer then your probably going to be able to retire working in the same field all of your life. And please don't give me the same old talktrack that's it's too hard for some people to have an opportunity to change a career feild. If that's your argument then you derserve to be where you end up. The majority of times only those that work hard and adapt will be successfull. If you like living in America but don't like the Capitolist society in which we live then move somewhere else. You can't have it both ways.

A coalition of AARP, Business Roundtable, Wal-mart and Service Employees Union, among others are seeking ways to address health care issue.

ryan IF the big three had properly funded healthcare and pensions that they agreed to at the bargaining table and signed contract for, there would not be a problem. Also workers EARNED those health benifits and pensions. Your right big business did indeed raid those funds and should be held accountable. ryan are you part of the solution or part of the problem? I never hear any possible solutions from you.

Bush promised veto and senate repubs threatened filibuster to stop dems from requiring Health and Human Services from negotiating price of drugs for Medicare prescription drug program.

Ryan, while I don't always agree with you completely, your points are valid and well made, without ranting and raving. I would note, however, that health care costs way too much and health insurance companies are making huge profits. Pension plans are being raided and abandoned because companies can get away with it, while arguing that they cannot afford an increased minimum wage but the CEO is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Perhaps unions have injured, if not killed, the goose that laid the golden eggs, but go to Wal-Mart and see what it's like without them.

Rand corp. estimates that applying Intellegent Technology to health care system could save $165 billion per year.

not a union man but you sure are a swiftbaoter. you make accusations about me that are all LIES. I retired at 55 with a three part income stream, a.--union retirement b.--investment in stocks and bonds c.--small time/part time self employed business. I also grow nice little vege garden and a head or two of live stock(i love a good salad and steak whenever i want it). so keep up your swiftbaoting lies I love ta laugh at you guys.

I meant Information Technology in my 11:13 post sorry for my mistake.

retired union man - you state "IF the big three had properly funded healthcare and pensions that they agreed to at the bargaining table and signed contract for, there would not be a problem". I would argue that there would be a much bigger problem; None of them would be in business anymore. I'm not saying that the employees didn't work hard. I'm sure from a physical standpoint they worked much harder then I do. I'm just saying that they received lavish pay and benefits that wound up driving the companies into the ground. I suggest solutions all the time. Many of which you don't agree with but that doesn't mean I don't suggest them. I'm not sure what you are asking me to solve this time? Do you want me to present a solution where high school graduates wind up getting paid 30,40,50 dollars an hour and receive remarkable pensions and healthcare benefits? The only solution I have for that is a time machine. That's not the way the economy works anymore. Its been trending in that direction for probably 20+ years. My uncle had to come to this conclusion 3 years ago when he was laid off from a manufacturing firm after 25 years of employment. He had nothing but a high school diploma and was making $45 an hour. He quickly found that with his education and experience and his age all working against him his only choice was to change. He went back to school for two years and worked part time while he retrained himself to work with Adobe software. He now has a job that he likes that pays him 45k a year(which may not be as much as he was making but he knows that that is not possible anymore and 45k is a lot more then 0). Unfortunately people must adapt to the changing economy. It's not "Bush's" economy its capitalism and globalization that at this point cannot be reversed without doing great harm to millions of people around the globe.

It has taken 30 years to do it but the gains unions made in worker rights and benefits since the turn of the 20th century have all but been stripped away by Reagan and the Bushes. Now workers have inadequate pensions, health care and protections while the most of the major corporations are enjoying record profits becuase their loyalty is not to the United States of America but to the dollar. These and those who pass legislation to support them are the real traitors of America. They have sold our people down the river (across our borders and oceans) for the global dollar. They have looted pension plans (which we have to make up for in tax dollars), they continue to oppose ways to keep medical care and prescription drugs cheaper, and people are working more hours (and often more jobs)to make ends meet. Our personal debt is at its highest and personal savings at their lowest in 50 years. The more we spend the more they profit and the less the average American has to show for it. Worrying about boys kissing, babies being aborted, and Presidents getting blown in the White House may be all well and good but it won't feed your families, make certain you have a job tomorrow or something to live on in your old age. Wake up, Americans, unions are not your enemies; those who bust them are.

retired union man - It is pretty much a proven economic fact that free markets will almost always produce lower prices then government intervention. Also, if the government was to negotiate prices as it does to some extent in the VA system people are limited as to what drugs they can choose. It doesn't matter what drug is best for you it only matters what the government has negotiated. Also, I am all for applying technology advances to our medical and healthcare systems. I believe President Bush has stated this in several SOTU addresses and has funded technology changes and updates in many hospitals accross the country.

Union man I made no assumptions about you so please don't flatter yourself. I was merely pointing out the "state of the unions"...so to speak. I'm glad you're doing well. However, I don't know what swiftboating has to do with what the income of CEO's or why you would think that Republicans 98% are not CEO's would be for CEO's making more money. It just doesn't make any sense.

retired union man - they are getting desparate. Lieas and "swift boating" are all they've ever had, because they have no vision for anyone but themselves. They are a cancer and their lies are the tools of a fascist puppet government that sneers at average Americans. Our country is sick, and the lies you see the right post up here are the symptom. We need a monkey-ectamy - STAT. These Denigrate, Obfuscate, Reiterate Rove brown shirts will crawl back into the woodwork to await the next President Nothitler.

Ryan, CA "they are getting desparate" there you go keep believing that, keep telling yourself that. BTW don't forget your binky when you take your nap today. The cancer in this country begins with the hate mongering from the left. It continues with anti war tirades and anti American acts all under the shroud that you actually care for your country. When in truth you are filled with nothing but hate and lies. Cure the hate and America will be reunited.

ryan per your 11:34 post you say if these companys had lived up to the contracts they signed things would be worse, how so?? What you call lavish I call HARD EARNED and AGREED to in a CONTRACT. I have NEVER asked for ridiclus solutions so I dont know why you waste time with that stuff. I do not remember any of your possible solutions maybe you can refresh my memory. As far as being adaptable I totally agree I attended school part time thru-ought my life to keep up with changing conditions, thats why I have a three part income stream and can feed myself with my own food. As far as free markets go sometimes they work and sometimes they dont but when markets have monopoly then folks get the royal screwing and i would simply ask for working americans to respond with their own experiences, which I give more credence to than your free market position.

not a union man, everyone can read your post so more swiftbaoting just adds to your lack of credibility but hey hahahahaha

hahahaha retired union man hahahaha what? I'm sorry lack of credibility?...swiftboating?...hahahahahah please tell me the kool aid hasn't gone straight to your head, on second thought hahahahah I think it's too hahhahhaa late

retired union man - what I meant was that if the companies had, as you put it "lived up to the contracts they signed" then they would be even farther in the hole from a financial persepective. GM and Ford probably would've been forced to file bankruptcy. It may not seem like it but I'm not upset with the union, they did what they get paid to do, get their workers the most pay and benefits they can. I am upset with the companies for agreeing to such a contract in the first place. I have no doubt that the benefits were hard earned but that doesn't change the fact that the money and resources that it cost to try to keep up with those agreed upon benefits ran the companies into the ground, which of course benefits no one except for maybe some trial lawyers somewhere. Maybe I'm not reading your posts correctly, what is it that you want solutions to? I also am not getting what you mean by "markets have monopoly then folks get the royal screwing". By definition markets can mean the absence of monopolies.

Scott - Thanks for your post. Wal-Mart is usually the company that gets the beating when it come to the union vs. non-union argument. I'm not going to defend Wal-Mart. Some of its employment practices have been questionable. However there are lots of retailers that don't have unions that have no major problems with employees and practice good business. On top of that most employees in the Technology and Financial Service segments of the economy aren't unionized and they receive some of the biggest paychecks and best benefits in America. I'm not necessarily anti-union; I would just say be careful what you wish for.

ryan per post 1:44 you keep saying they wouldv'e been bankrupt sooner but do not explain why they would be bankrupt sooner so if you could explain that it would help me understand, (unless they were just bad managers and did not know what they were doing or were playing bait and switch) but I understand you may have a different explanation so I have an open mind as to why. IF THE COMPANYS HAD FUNDED THE MED. AND RET. ACCOUNTS AS THEY WENT ALONG(AND OF COURSE NO ONE STOLE IT BE IT COMPANY OR UNION) instead of trying to maximize profits then there would not in all probability be a problem. The solutions I am looking for concern unaffordable health care and poor working conditions and lack of family wage jobs, sorry if I wasn't more clear but I usually stay on those subjects but not always. As for markets I understand college economics but that is just theory, in reality sometimes purist type theorys just dont work and when some companys have a monopoly then they can do as they please. I rember in the 70s when inflation was very high one of the reasons was we went into a recession and instead of lowering prices cause the demand fell(market theory of supply and demand) the business community(a good part of it) decided to keep prices where they were instead of lowering prices. This helped make inflation higher and the recession worse.

All the nations who were our enemies during WWII have universal health care. The reason we cannot afford it is the AMA and the Drug companies with their buckets of bribe money.

Denigrate. Obfuscate. Reiterate....."hahahaha retired union man hahahaha what? I'm sorry lack of credibility?...swiftboating?...hahahahahah please tell me the kool aid hasn't gone straight to your head, on second thought hahahahah I think it's too hahhahhaa late "

retired union man - Thanks for the good discussion today. What I was trying to say was if they had paid all of the benefits and contracts as they were supposed to be paid out they would've lost even more money. I see what you are saying now about how they should've reduced profit margins instead. From my understanding Ford loses about $800 everytime they sell a car. The only way they make money on the deal is if you finance the car through them. I have proposed several healthcare. I advocate Health Savings Accounts which allow people to pay their health bills with tax free money. I advocate price transparecy so people know what they are being charged. I also would be for moving away from a system where employers are responsible for healthcare. This was never meant to happen and happened as a loophole during FDR's cap on wages idea. I think that Bush's plan is a step in the right direction. It would give you the possibility of having completely tax free healthcare. If you sign up for a policy that is less then $15,000 a year which far and away most policies are, then your entire cost would be tax deductable and if you signed up for a Health Savings Account all of you out of pocket expenses could be tax free. Also there needs to be lawsuit reform to limit the amount of money people can sue for. Baseless lawsuits are driving up the nations healthcare costs and something needs to be done about them. Needless to say our healthcare situation is terrible and there are many dynamic ideas out there besides the ones mentioned above. The bottom line is people need to start thinking of healthcare differently. They need to start thinking about health insurance much like they do auto insurance.

ryan per your 4:27 post I am saying back when they signed contracts if ford(or whoever) had paid into benefit accounts and priced accordingly I dont see that there would have been a problem today(but thats ancent history now), but instead chose to ignore their contractual obligations til another day and yes its biting everyone where it hurts today but that was and is not the unions fault. now that you remind me yes I remember and we have dissagreed on some of these solutions before. I still say eleinmate taxes on first $50,000 of workers wages and small business profits and make all medical expenses and educational expenses tre-tax $ and 100% tax deductable. These are very simple concepts and no trouble to implement and I beleive would help more working poor and middle class americans than anything else I have heard discussed, yes I know we will probably never agree on these recommendations by either one of us, bur hey if wal-mart and the SEIU can decide to try and find common round on health care its a good idea to try. thanks appreciated the conversation.

Well, some of you laugh, most of us go to work every day. We take our children to the doctor, and wonder how we are going to pay for it. We want our children to have a good education and want them to go farther down that country road than we were able to. In short, we want our children to have a better life. Isn't that The American Dream? From the coal mines to the car factories, the man down under found he could not breathe. 6 day work week, nothing compensated. Have to have been there and done that to appreciate the Union Man.Lots of optimists from all of us who struggled , won that fight a day at a time.What say You America.?We have no say, we have no voice. We are just the working man In America.My vote is for the union every time.

A Union card is the best anti-poverty program this country has ever had. Taft- Hartley should be repealed. The only other country in the world that replaces striking workers is South Africa. Universal healthcare is a no brainer. Free market economy vs. fair market economy. Nothing is free! At least in a Pre-Reagonomic world workers were also consumers of their fruits. The working middle class has been under fire since Mr. Reagan decided to go union busting. Globalization---yawn, old arguement. Selling out to the lowest bidder is more like it. Just a thought, some of us union men are still here. We are testament to the value of union labor. My advice is work for the common good of all.

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