Sounds like a good plan to me, tho I still say reposition all troops home with their families to protect the home front.

I don't know if I like parts of his plan much. He says he wants to prohibit deploying people to Iraq unless they've been home for a year. Our unit does 4 month tours, then 8 months home. In order to fulfill the manning we have, we'd have to extend our 4 month tours to 8 month tours to allow people to stay home longer. Only the Army deploys people regularly to Iraq for over 12 months. The Marines do 6-7 month deployments, and the Air Force typically does 4-6 month deployments. I personally would rather do 4 months there and 8 months at home than 8+ months there and 1 year home. Just me though.

So, Chris - it's OK for YOU to want to be home? But you don't think any of those soldiers want to be home. You constantly claim how much THEY want to stay. Why can't you support the mission, too?

As much as I don't agree with Murtha, and I can think of about 97 or so senators that I like more then him, at least he is acting on his beliefs. This is what I have been talking about. As I stated, I can't disagree with Murtha more, but I respect him for at least doing something about his belief that the war should end. I wonder how many Democrats and Republicans that are, supposedly, for ending the war as quickly as possible will help Murtha out and vote for his plan?

permanent bases in Iraq,now isnt that special! like we have all over the world..now we get to support N Korea as well as South Korea, Israel, China, Mexico..

It is now unpopular to support the war, now we have all these politicians jumping over to the other side because they don't want to lose votes. Where was he 2 years ago If they do what he proposes they will implement the draft.

It is a good start, better would be let the troups stay home for at least 2 years before they go back to that hell hole. Still needs some work, but after the repugnant control any ideas for improvement are welcome and refreshing at this point.

Just stand up like a man, Murtha and de-fund the entire operation. Stand up on C-SPAN and tell the nation that's what you're going to do. Don't hide behind legislative attachments.

Bob - I can't believe I am defending Murtha but he is trying to defund the operation. He along with Feingold have probably been the most vocal about thier ideas for ending the war as soon as possible. Murtha is giving interviews telling everyone what he is going to do. I don't think he is hiding anything. At this point in time I have more respect for Murtha then for someone (mainly Republicans) who makes war decisions based on their election chances in '08. I respect people who stand up for what they believe in, on either side. I happen to be against Murtha but at least he has a spine.

None of the representatives want to defund the entire operation!! That would be VERY dangerous for our troops and they know it. The repubs have been telling the dem for a month now to come up with a plan and Murtha is trying to make a plan that will help our troops out and everyone jumps down his throat. Don't put words in his mouth and don't assume that he is trying to defund when he is not. I think he is trying to what he can with what he has and that is more than any of the other representatives are willing to do.

Bruce Rosebraugh, Battleground In. - To answer your question of "where was he 2 years ago?", two years ago John Murtha was a strong anti-war voice in the halls of Congress. Murtha is not one of the politicians who had to have a major electoral victory to gain a spine about apposing the war.

He is clearly not trying to defund. Nowhere in his propositions does he say that he is not going to fund anything. It's all about attaching conditions to deployment that will make it impossible for the surge to take place, and eventually force them to cut back on the number of troops already there. It's something, at least.

No, Lovely, I'm saying they don't have the guts to defund it - the Dems don't want to defund the operation because it would do 2 things: 1) Harm the troops (as you said) and 2) deny them the issue for the '08 campaign. What Murtha is trying to do is take the flexibility away from the Commander-in-Chief and the Pentagon in deciding troop deployments to support an operational strategy. I just want Murtha and the other Dems to stand up and say they want a vote to defund the operation rather than hide behind a legislative attachment. Then we can see who will put their money where their mouth is. I haven't heard a strategy yet except to bring the troops home according to some pre-established schedule (not feasible) or just continue to attack Bush every day.

Somebody please close the door, I feel a DRAFT coming from the right side of the room....

Just wondering....you don't understand what I was saying. We all like being home. But in order to make people stay at home longer, we ALL would have to be DEPLOYED LONGER to make the manning work out. 12 month Army tours would have to turn into 18 month tours. 6 month Marine tours would have to go to a year, and AF tours would go from 4-6 months to 8-12 months to keep the deployed units manned.

In the spirit of supporting the troops I want to go record as supporting that Air Force sargents right to take her clothes off anywhere she wants to.

It's a pity Murtha didn't come up with the following string to attach to the President's "surge" plan: No funding for this "surge" in Iraq until Bush comes up with a Katrina recovery "surge" -- a serious plan to rebuild New Orleans and the rest of the communities damaged by Katrina. Right now, the money already allocated is stuck in the pipeline due to various bureaucratic snafus and chokepoints such as the requirement that communities pay 10% matching funds to the funds--especially a hardship for hard-hit Louisiana which wants the requirement of paying these funds waived. And so far a lot of rebuilding work is being done by volunteers, which is great, but not only can volunteers not do everything--for example, they can't do the difficult, expensive job of repairing infrastructure, the number of volunteers in the Gulf Region has dwindled due to Katrina's having faded from many Americans' consciousness. What the area really needs is a "Marshall Plan" that would include groups like the organizations set up under FDR during the Depression, which would get the rebuilding done more quickly. I think if the Democrats had any moral courage at all, they'd find a way to link additional funding for Iraq with the Bush Administration's funding the recovery of New Orleans and everyplace else that desperately needs such help. I don't think that, if they really thought about it, the Democrats would want to be lumped together with Bush and the GOP in the response to the question, "Who lost New Orleans?"

Bob Edmunds, Scranton, PA. First things first, Why the "Hell" are we in Iraq. It has been proven fact that there were 19 Saudia Arabian National loyal to Osama Bin Laden who was in Pakistan or Afghanistan on Sept. 11, 2001. The world and this country unified with George W. Bush to retaliate aganist the al Queda network. It was never any proof that Iraq or Saddam Hussein was behind the World Trade Center disastor. 85 % of we here in the USA rallied behind George W. Bush. I'm one who didn't believe that our commander-in-chief and NSA (Condoleezza Rice) would sit idly by ignoring a warning, of PDB Jul. 10, Aug.6, 2001, just a month before that a attack was in the making and those two didn't lift a finger to call the FAA, NORAD and the Air Line Industry to increase security. To get to the point we are in Iraq due to the gutless citizens that were scared out of their witts by Karl Rove with the "HomeLand Security Dept" the Patriot act, saying if we didn't support this entirely we are UN-AMERICAN and UNPATRIOTIC, which is how they defeated Max Cleland. Then to further scare the citzens of this country, Judy Millers New York Times story about WMDs stockpiles that Saddam Hussein was supposed to have, that was told to her by Dick Cheney (who promised the shiites ,in 1991, aid to overthrow Saddam and was forced to back off our support, which thousands of Shiites were killed when Saddam once learned about the coup) By the Pentagon with Doug Feith cooked information, Ahmad Chalibi and Rumfield were supposed by this administration who didn't support the unilateral illegal invasion UN-AMERICAN UNPATRIOTIC that they labled us this way. That's twice they scared the citizens, then Karl Rove came up with the brilliant idea to go into the Churchs in the USA and tell them that should they not support the war effort that they would be overrun by gays, liesbans and abortions, to further scare the bible reading red neck he told them that their gun priviledges were in jeopardy. With each time the lie was told the public became more cautios about backing the administration. '06 dhange all that as the public started to realize that they had been hoodwinked. It seems sort of strange that on Oct. 6, 2006 according to what I read on the internet while digging out facts was a statement attributed to Sen. Patrick Leahy that a signed agreement that authorized George W. Bush to declare "MATRIAL LAW" and to rewrite the "Insurrectionaries Act" of the Patriot Act to including national insurregency. Seems odd to me that this signing took place one month and one day before his party gave up control of both branches of our govt. Then again he tried to rewrite the Geneva convention rules. As to John Murtha, I didn't agree with his vote for the war resolution and rightly told his office he was wrong authorizing the use of force against a country that had absolutally no responsibly for the Sept. 11, 2001 happening. John Murtha brought this nation back to reality when he sporsored his fazed withdrawl and redeployment. I've let him know that he along with Charlie Rangel and 168 congressman are right about our involvement in Iraq. This administration needed a forward out post in the Middle East to protect Joe LIE-BER-MANN interest in Israel. Mc Cain and LIE-BER-MANN both lied to the public about troops being satified with there mission, Oliver North said they lied about the morale of the troops and Bush tried to hide that fact at his press conference that there was disention among the troops. Many have said Iraq was a huge blunder and from the very beginning I was suspious about the intent of the Sept. 11, 2001 attack on the WTC.

I do tend to agree with Bob Edmonds first post on this page that Murtha should go on C-Span and shout it from the rooftops what he's gonna do or what the bleep ever. I also believe the CEOs of Halliburton, Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, Exxon etc. etc. should shout it from the Rooftops how they and hundreds of corporations have reaped such unbelievable profits from this war that it was possible, even likely, they were puppeteering behind the scenes to get the puppets in the Bush administration on track to improving their untold wealth way beyond the lions share of the national surplus Bush shoveled into their coffers for their great part in engineering his somewhat rigged election in 2000. I would also like statistics on how much overall profit these old boys raked in per each gallon of blood spilled over there, either that or accept my own estimate that they came away with several million each for each gallon spilled. I believe Waxman will be doing a great job of dealing with these robber barons, especially concerning the wealth generated by theft, fraud and other scandalous monkey business that will make the Teapot Dome Scandal and the Reagan great savings and loan scandal together rolled up in a tortilla shell with a cherry on top look like a Church of Christ ice cream social by comparison. Glad you brought this up, Bob.

Olivia, I agree with you. As long as Spike Lee keeps doing what he is doing, on one will forget about New Orleans. I am not including W in this as he never seemed to know where New Orleans was anyway!! I say Go Murtha! Stop this craziness any way you can.

I bet Murtha won't get any support. They guy has been a bullhorn for change but gets no support for his actions. Seems like he is trying to prevent the President from having 'rapid acess' to deploying troops but not defunding current operations.

Ryan, good to see you. I have been behind Murtha from the begining. I approve of his over the horizon approach. At some point we have to let the Iraqi's live their own lives. They have to clean up their own mess. But we are still within Air force bombing and redeploying special forces distance. Probobly sit in Kuwait or on our war ships but I have never advocating leaving completely. My gut says until the Shiites make the Sunnis say "UNCLE", that the killing will keep going for both sides. Just like how Saddam came to power, by imposing his will and military on the Shiites until they said "Uncle". Remember the fear the Shiites had of Saddam. They were the majority but were under Saddam's rule. I feel the Shiites will not stop until they do to the sunnis what they (Saddam) did to them. Just look at other uprisings similar to Iraq: Phillipines comes to mind, the 2 sides kept killing each other until the government forces said enough. Then the government forces killed everyone on their raids: women,children and the old. Within 2 months the insurgency gave up. basically until the government decided to kill all , the insurgents still thought they had a chance. I see parallels of the phillipin's conflict with Iraq's. The only reason the Shiites have not overrun the Sunnis is because our military is between them. That is why let the Iraqi's decide for themselves how they want to be ruled and be ready to negotiate with the victor. This lockdown of Bagdad is just a holding pattern. There are reports that all insurgents, al qaida and death squads have all moved out of Baghdad. They can wait us out. Once the lockdown is over they will all come back and start all over.I hope the lockdown of Bagdad works, just so we can end this war and get every one home. I just have my doubts.

Regarding the "surge," 20,000 troops will not change the fundamental reality on the ground: savage sectarian bombings causing death and dismemberment for scores of Iraqis at a time, the tortured and executed corpses of Iraqis found strewn about Baghdad, the wanton killings of our sons and daughters, who have not, from the beginning until now, been properly equipped, and the massive hemmorhaging of the American Treasury. The proponents of the troop surge argue that if we leave, the country will devolve into widespread violence, death, destruction, etc. Now, I don't know if you've been watching too much Fox or what, but we're there, guys. I'm sure there are some schools being painted somewhere over there or something (although they may be bombed tommorrow, so...) and I'm still all weepy-eyed over the purple thumbs and whatnot, but if 140,000 troops have not done the job, then 160,000 will not either. I support Congressman Murtha's efforts to stop the "surge." Knowing that in six months, this mayhem will be the same or worse, I choose not risk the lives of a further 20,000 troops. While I don't think we can "leave precipitously," I also think the Iraqis need to step up and do it themselves. This has become too much about saving face, which by now is unlikely. Bush and his civilian and corporate allies running our government--few with appropriate experience, like he, for the tasks to which they were assigned--have caused breathtaking damage to our American reputation, to our prospects as a people, and even to our identity in a way. This damage is not irreversible, but does anyone seriously believe that the insurgents are going to stop any time soon, and even if they did, would not resume the second we left? And if not, are you prepared to live with the fact that, tens and most likely hundreds of these 20,000 troops will horrifically killed or injured, perhaps paralyzed or dismembered? I say, limit troop levels to what they are now to avoid devolution in Iraq, force Bush to institute the draft because god knows that stubborn, stupid s-- of a ----h will do it, and see how many people still support the "plan," when finally, they are asked to play I.E.D.-fodder Lotto with their own sons and daughters.

Wow, Bob Lipsett Sr. North Attleboro, MA. You got through your entire diatribe without mentioning the Clinton administration once. You'd like to forget those eight years. Bush went to war on the same intelligence that both Clintons, Kerry, Biden, et al saw. They all voted for the use of force. In addition to the intelligence, which we now know wasn't accurate, you coveniently forget the dozen U.N. resolutions that were part of the negotiated settlement at the end of the first Gulf War - which were NEVER enforced by either the U.N. or the Clinton administration. You also conveniently left out the fact that the U.N. inspectors were kicked out of Iraq on Bill's watch and we had no verification of what was going on inside the country. Bob, stick to the real facts about the situation and don't let your contempt of Rove and Cheney cloud your arguments. Murtha's clear intention here is to defund the effort - he stated as much today. I only ask that he, Pelosi, and the rest of the Democrats be up front about it.

Jim Langworthy, Viet Nam Vet 67-68 maybe he's on the right track, why not cut so much out each month? We were given false info for this war to start with but we can not and leave all at once, I feel very deeply for our troops and want them all home safely, if we must continue then round up the illegals and send so many each month and bring the others home

Ryan Mich. I like you more, everytime you see things from nearer the middle. Excuse me for thinking you were a dummy egghead, a long time ago.

"Tommy Can You Hear Me?, And Really Listen To Me? Tommy. Tommy...." The Who.

One plan so far except our troops would not be treated fairly if more troops were needed in a short amount of time for replacement reason's. Then who will be choosen to go or remain here? And each branch of the Military would have to decide with their set of rules once you join. Cost of this war in exchange for troops having time off sends a message that this is war time. With all the troops we have in Iraq at this present time I'm sure each and everyone of them would like time away. In pass wars soldiers remained in full force until it was over.

I keep hearing about "America's reputation." I find it interesting that millions of people a year try to get into this country. Don't they know about our reputation? Won't they be embarassed living free and making a living in this country? I have a hard time sleeping at night knowing that the countries of Western Europe, the countries we have fought for and freed from tyranny twice in the last century, don't approve of the things we are doing around the world. I have no problem with people who are against the war or the things we are doing in Iraq, but don't bring up that stuff about our reputation. America ain't perfect, but we are the world economic and military leader. France used to sell Mirage jets to anyone who would buy them, well, until our F-16s kept shooting them out of the sky, so other countries ain't perfect either.

Everyone is on the pull-out bandwagon, I remember a similar tone right before Vietnam collapsed. While there were flaws in the Vietnam strategy as there is in Iraq, the worst thing that could happen is to lose the country to be another Iran (Thank you Jimmy Carter). People want to have it both ways, you can fight the battle in Iraq and Afganistan until you win ( the average time it takes to defeat an insurgency according to the think tanks is nine years) or you can let them fester into new training camps for even more radical groups who will focus there attention and considerable oil revenue to attack the US and Israel. You can lament our involvement all you want, but the fact is, we are there and there is no turning back. So whats it going to be, fight and win or put your head in the Iraqi sand and wait until more buildings or maybe a city or two are destroyed here.

murtha that is the best thing ive heard in years. we need to initiate that imediatly.

Nothing I like better than to sit here on third shift and read the rambling babble of good ol' Bob Lipsett. We need more conspiracy theory stuff like that Bob. Do you actually type that rant, or do you have it saved in a file so you can bring it up when you need it?

This country won't tolerate a 9 year war. I don't see why some republicans can't see that. That is just not what the U.S.A is about, and I don't disagree with that. You may recall the Cold War but that was an arms race, not a battlefield.

CJ--Wasn't the Cold War also a battlefield in such places as the Korean peninsula and Vietnam? Not to mention those places where we fought "proxy wars" such as Nicaragua, El Salvador...

KC, everyone was on a pull-out bandwagon before Vietnam collapsed because most could see there was no chance of success. No matter how many Americans died the Vietnamese weren't going to take over for us...because they didn't care! No matter how long we sit and bleed in the Iraqi desert it won't produce a stable and open democracy because the people are inclined toward civil war. Iran fell to the Ayatollahs not because we didn't support the Shah sufficiently but because the people hated us for supporting a brutal and repressive regime. We installed the Shah, we propped him up for years, it's no surprise we're hated by the people who overthrew him. The lesson of Vietnam, Iran, Nicaraugua, and a bunch of other places isn't that we don't interfere enough in their affairs. The lesson is that we get burned repeatedly because we interfere too much.

John B, well said

It may feel good to say to hell with world opinion, Third Shifter, but we live in an increasingly complex global community in which working with other nations to solve common world problems and pursue the economic and security interests of our own country is essential. These nations are led by politicians. These politicians have constituencies who have an opinion about U.S. policy. The vast majority of casualties in Iraq have been American sons and daughters because either nations were not brought on board in the first place, or they withdrew what troops they did send under mounting popular political pressure. So. . . we can still say that we don't care about America's reputation in the world, which I know, feels real good and tough and individualistic--I have an independent streak myself and could really care less on a personal level what people a world away think of me or my fellow Americans--but we should also understand that our reputation is an essential component of Americans' personal and economic security, and more acutely, of the safety of our soldiers in the field. Welcome to 21st century Earth.

Bob. Edmunds, Scranton PA. Should you have been paying attention to my other opinions and thoughts that I contribute to first read, you would have known that the Clinton administration was asked to remove our troops from the forward base (out post) in Saudia Arabia where the Saudia Family feared reprisal from one of their own. (Osama Bin Laden) as a matter of fact Clinton, George Tenent, Richard Clark and a host of others warned this administration of the very serious trouble that Bin Laden was capable of. Clinton never said that Saddam Hussein had WMD only that he was capable of reconstituting his programs that were destroyed during the 100 hour war to remove the Iraqi troops from Kuwati, funny, that then we had the whole world as our coalition and even help from the Arab nations,(Sunnis) that was the only the main body of the resolution, it did not authorize going into Iraq to displace their leader. During the late 90's Clinton warned this nation and this present administration that al Queda was the major threat to the USA and the most dangerous threat to "America". The secret idenity of the writer "Primary Colors" chose to use "The Tail Wagging the Dog" for Clinton to escape the troubles that were heaped on him and on this nation by Ken Starr, Mitch McConnell, Newt Gringrich, Trent Lott, Dan Burton and the rest that could not stomach the fact that Clinton beat George H.W. Bush because Reagan left him, George #41, buried in debt. It turn out the author was Joe Kline. Further more I have been vocal through phone calls and email to all of their offices since 2002 that authorized this resolution against the illegal invasion of Iraq. Funny how the Pentagon, Rumfield, Feith, Hadley, Rove and Cheney got all the wrong (?)information and made all the wrong assumptions about the plan after 5 years in Iraq there would be about 5,000 troops there be greeted like liberators. By their analyasis in 2002 by 2006 we should have only 5,000 troops stationed in Iraq, not 135,000 and begging for 21,500 more. Gosh! what happened to their predictions? Our people have been asked to support another "SURGE", the fifth surge plan with 4 Supplemental spending bills totaling 367 Billion Dollars and another one on the way for yet another 100 Billion dollar Supplemental Spending Bill to try to straighten out the mess this administration left in Afghanistan by not sending 3,200 troops to begin with, that should have been there during the displacing of al Queda and Bin Laden. My feeling is they don't want to catch him as they have no other plans to stop the terrorist. Steve Buyers R-IN. said early this morning (1:00 AM) gave all the accounts that terrorist were responsible for, only mentioning that since the invasion of Iraq was a terrorist building nation at which point Mrs. Susan Davis D-CA. thanked Mr Buyers for making the Democrats case for opposing this surge. In the news last night it was said that Iran and the Shiites were responsible for a little more than 15 % of our military deaths caused by IEDs and the Sunni nation was actually making and supplying the "BoobyTraps" IEDs or the other Boobytraps. Our soldiers are doing an impossible task under a impossible conditions in this mission to educate these people in fighting for themself. It has now been 1,404 days since "Mission Accomplished' under that banner on the photo-op opportunity in a flight suit that he was wearing on that AirCraft Carrier USS Abraham Lincoln. A couple of days ago in Baghdad a group of Iraqi and US military were patroling streets and going door to door checking for insurgents or weapons, when one door opened for inspection, the Iraqi soldiers refused to go in first as a result our troops went in and found a "BOOBYTRAPPED BABY" which was exploded and killing a few of our troops as a matter of fact there were 6 military deaths that day. All the "COWARDS" that didn't question for valid reasons for the unilateral illegal invasion are responsible for these 3,129 loss of our brave military that were just following orders. So Bob Edmunds of Scranton is the facts. Another fact is that Lt. Gen. David Petreaus was the only commander to actually do something right while he was in command of the 101st Airbourne division. While in Mousl he instructed his troops to use DIPLOMACY dealing with the people, treat them as humans not enemies that was in '03 his first tour of duty, he also pointed out that the mounds of dirt below their chopper were unguarded Ammo Dumps while flying from Kuwat to Mousl in April of '03 and they would be looted and used against our troops, his stratgy worked until these brainless leaders wanted to strong arm Mousl and replaced the 101st with the 82 Striker Brigade which was took a crash and smash path and Petreaus civil plan turned into the fighting zone that was all over in Iraq. Now as a last, 3 1/2 years late, resort this lumped headed combat planning team is attempting to bring this Gen. Petreaus into a 4 year mess to straighten out. It is too little to late to ask this man to do now what he accomplished in Mousl in '03. Why is it that the Sunni Arab nation have sat on the side lines during all of this. They have been invited just like the rest of the world, but they sit on their hands waiting for the outcome. Only Israel (Joe LIE-BER-MANN)is benefiting from the USA involvement in Iraq as it now has a military outpost to replace the loss of the Saudia outpost. At least some of the 435 congressional member and 100 members are waking up to this impossible mission. Our troops have accomplished their mission that they started out to do, now it is finished and it is time to take our Military boots out of the "Holy Land". Ernest Hollis said it best when leaving the Senate in '04 " We are involved in a Holy War that is between Christians, Jews against Islam and Muslum forces and it will be a long, bloody and costly struggle" BTW; our fearless leader has yet to address the Border Patrol treatment of the Kangroo Court that sent two, Ramos and Compean, to prison for 10 years. Watch the irate Lou Dobbs on CNN at 6:00 PM for speaking daily about this president who will not even mention one word about being contacted by our congressional delegations. I'm a Proud Protestant Irish American and I'm a stubborn disgusted by the silence of my party not saying anything about this situation with these Border Patrol Security Agents.They protect our country from within just as our Brave Military does in another country. "Get INVOLVED"

No Third Shifter of Kalamazoo I don't have a file to post anytime on First Read, but I do get angry when in my opinion people distort the facts. Even now FOX NOISE channel are starting to tell it as it is. Maybe it is because your up all night working for a company that will soon eliminate your job. Why is it that reporters as Charles J. Henley of the Associated Press, maybe the AP is to liberal for your scope on this disastor, to write articles about the "longer stay for our troops in Iraq" or the article about the 104 sq. mile Emearld Colossal super secret U.S. Embassy. Have you ever seen pictures of this Embassy? I haven't but, all my questions to Senators, Congressman are brushed aside. This makes me angry that no one will give a answer about these things, just ignore it and it will go away, just as Bush is ignoring his own party by not acknowledging their communication about those two Border Patrol Security Agents. It is amazing just how much of a court Johnny Sutton spear headed this Kangroo court into railroading these two men. It has been proven that the judical system there lied and made false statements about what happened. Maybe Third Shifter I have to much time since I retired from trucking, but I didn't retire from voicing my opinion over these last twenty years. Liberal news or conservative news does not bring the dead Brave men and women of our Military back to life. In my opinion we are stuck in Iraq for many years just to be the worlds policeman and protect a small Democracy, that when they have the oportunity to expand their holding beyound what was given them, they again will try what Menachim Begin did in 1968. We talk about nuclear disarmment while we give $2.5 Billion dollars to Joe LIE-BER-MANNs friends and arm them with the most advance weapons known to fight a enemy that has only sling shots and chinese firecrackers. Michael Ware a correspondent in Baghdad gives reports daily the happening. Our own Congressional delegation can not walk the streets of most of the cities in Iraq alone without armed protection, and most don't even leave the green zone. Maybe that is why they enlarged it to 104 sq. miles from it's original size and lengthen the runways at Ballard and build 5 new bases. T.S. I get my information by watching and listening. For many years I have tried to keep what my generation built and watched a ungrateful nation tear it down. Next, should you believe what Lou Dodds says is the selling out of America to the Big Business that runs this country. Remember to fight the combining of Mexico, Canada and the United States together under one flag, the United States of North America. Maybe CNNs Lou Dobbs is trying to wake this nation up that we can not give away any more of our country. Selling our lotteries, water systems, hiways, subway systems, maybe CNN and Lou are smoking that wackie weed. I tend to think they are truthful and this nation has been lied to for 14 years. Don't forget that the Republican closed all the doors then and now they are crying foul. The shoe is on the other foot, some people are not happy to see what just maybe a little honesty will bring back to the middle class. Thanks Third Shifter in Kalamazoo for at least taking the time to read my, as you put it babble, and just maybe you will some day ask the right questions and demand the right and truthful answers from our leaders. BTW; Congrsswomen Susan Davis D-CA. did a brilliant job last night for getting Steven Buyers R-IN. to make the case about the need to vote yes on the resolution. No more trying to scare the public that we would use a vacuum cleaner approch to distance our troops so the battle such as that going on in Ireland between the religious factions. BTW; Third Shifter why are you on the computer when you are supposed to be working or is your job to monitor the Third Shifter, BTW are you sure you not working Mike Hagan of the NSA. Maybe I should be more careful on the information I post that I read and listen to.

tird Shifter - then refute him instead of slinging insults.

Iraq.....Vietnam.....some commonalities. Lies created both. Both were, from a military strategy POV, very poorly done. Both became the bane of the general population. In both, the rest of the 'free world' (whom we were supposedly trying to protect) sat by idly and watched US soldiers get killed and didn't lift a finger. Why? Because they didn't and don't believe it is necessary. I guess we just don't learn. Also, the Sunnis and the Shiites need a civil war to settle their own issues. Middle eastern Muslim nations will be in turmoil until that happens. Pretty much like the US had to have it's civil war before it could move forward.

Sorry Bob, I get a half hour for lunch and I have to check my mail now and then for orders from my boss. Thanks for assuming I am some sort of evil spy for the company I work for. Actually, my black helicopter just landed, I need to get to Washington for a super secret meeting with the Chinese so I can work at getting this company overseas, where we can make lots of money to hide in off-shore accounts to secretly help al-queda operatives shoot innocent shoppers in malls in Utah. To start the next war. So Haliburton can make money. uh-shoot losing my train of thought. Must go to moveon for the next wacko talking point...hang on.

To Bob. Lipsett Sr North Attleboro, MA. 02760-4388 - We can thank Ross Perot for Bill Clinton in 1992 and, while I don't want to rehash that whole thing, I will say that perjury is a crime in every state and people are found guilty of it every day and some even do jail time - so don't blame Ken Starr for Bill's problems. While the invasion of Iraq is controversial and our post-Saddam strategy questionable, it's not illegal simply because you say it's so - very much like humans don't cause global warming simply because Al Gore says it's so. What happens to Iraq if we pull the troops out, Bob. You haven't answered that question yet. There is a struggle for the country from inside and outside its borders - and you can't ignore the interests of Iran and Syria here. You offer only criticism and no solutions; you should be Speaker of the House.

What would have happened in 1861 if another nation sent troops to occupy Washington D.C., took Abe Lincoln into custody and told Johnny Reb and Billy Yank to put down their weapons and get along? Since the issues that brought on our Civil War had been building up for over 200 years, I don't think those occupiers could have stopped it.

Mel- I agree with the analogy. You and I must have the same history books in our libraries. History, history......why do those, who make decisions for us, refuse the wisdom contained in history???To quote my father again, "Even a dog can learn by rote.". Not to slight my mother, "In or out! In or out! Make up your mind!".

ex-Marine-First post-I agree. "protect the home front". If we brought the troops home and made a concerted effort to boost "home front" protection, we wouldn't have to worry about "the enemy following us back here", as Georgy predicts will happen. The enemy doesn't have to "follow us here". They are already here. If Homeland Security wasn't such a joke, they would be rousting out those that are already here, and implementing better policies to keep the rest out. No surprise that we only hear of any successes in this area, when Bush wants a pat on the back for his "war on terror". The key to this war in Iraq was when Bush started prefacing his "war or terror" with the word "global". I don't go digging around in the neighborhood searching holes looking for rattlesnakes, I just keep my doors closed so they can't come into my house. "My" homeland security. Close the doors and guard your own house.

Bob Edmunds-I notice you offer no solutions either on your post. Just criticism. I think we should have investigations/hearing/commissions as to why we went to war. My opinion is that if it was PROVEN we were lied to by Bush/Cheney and ANYONE else, then these GUILTY people should be hanged. I too believe Ross Perot was a big factor for Bill Clinton being elected in 1992. I also believe Ralph Nader was a big Factor for Bush being elected in 2000 and 2004. Yes Clinton was guilty of perjury and IF Scooter Libby is convicted of perjury, I hope I won't see you whinning about it here.

mel, are you comparing saddam insane with abe lincoln???? The man who killed thousands of kurds with poison gas? The man who set up torture chambers and had a secret police that terrorized a nation? Whose sons would pull women indescrimanantly off the street and rape them? Who had grand palaces paid for by oil money that he kept for his own? Are you kidding me????

I think the CIA is just too much involved with USA foreign policy. The first Bush, as well as Cheney, were heads of the CIA. All kinds of companies are CIA operated to funnel money to wars here and there, without Congressional approval, and have been for years. Bush II grew up with this at the dinner table, so I guess he thinks no Congressional approval is needed for wars at all. And since he's now the DECIDER, he can make the decisions himself on behalf of the CIA. I used to think we were helping other countries around the world, but now I just see the USA's big corporations using these countries in wars to make more money. And we pay for it over and over again.

Seattle Sue - my solution is to win it, not defund it. The President and the Vice President should be hung?? Wow...I can't even respond to that intellectually.

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