Iraq

Posted: Friday, March 30, 2007 9:21 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: White House, Congress, Security

The Washington Post covers yesterday back-and-forth between the White House and Congress over the Iraq spending bill. "The dueling events on opposite ends of Pennsylvania Avenue left the executive and legislative branches hurtling toward a high-stakes collision, with neither side showing signs of backing down. Both sides, in fact, appear to be relishing the confrontation to some extent, gambling that they can outmaneuver the other, galvanize the most passionate forces within their parties, win over public opinion and force an eventual resolution on their terms.”

The Post article also adds this: “In appearing with Republican lawmakers yesterday, Bush was following a tactic employed by President Bill Clinton during his own moment of political peril. On the day he was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice in the Monica S. Lewinsky case in 1998, Clinton summoned the entire House Democratic caucus to the White House to dispel the impression that the incident had left him isolated politically."

With Bush’s veto threat looming, Democrats are considering approving money for Iraq on a month-to-month basis, the Boston Globe says. “That would put the president's conduct on a short leash and allow opposition to the war to build, which could compel reluctant lawmakers to the point where Democrats gain enough votes to defeat a presidential veto and force Bush's hand.”

In his latest National Journal column, NBC political analyst Charlie Cook writes about some new polls showing that opposition to the Iraq may have bottomed out. “This is not to suggest some dramatic turnaround in public opinion… But the newest survey results suggest that opposition to the war is no longer growing, support for it is no longer in freefall, and public opinion may have steadied.”

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Comments

"Rock Steady"-No Doubt (Charlie Cook analysis)

Still Crazy After All These Years (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 9:55 AM)

The reasoning being that reports pointed at a slow down in the slaughter of civilians and military men in Iraq allegedly because of the troop surge. Attacka rae once again escalating and casuslaties continue to mount. The press would better serve the public if they merely reported the news without interjecting their own opinion. A war is like a chess game, moves and countermoves. The insurgents have made their countermove, let's hope we can answer it.

Ravine Force, Kissimmee, FL (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 10:02 AM)

ya the surge must be working after all only 118 people were reported killed(that we hear about) in iraq yesterday

ex-marine,vietvet (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 11:21 AM)

ex-marine, you know as well as I that surges do not work. They simply force tactical changes. A lot is being banked on stopping the slaughter by exposing our boys, it didn't work where we served and it won't here either. More of us veterans should be speaking out to our community, can't count on the press and most certainly not on this administration to tell it like it is. I heard they are bringing back the Ravine Force, go River Rats.

Ravine Force, Kissimmee, FL (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 11:56 AM)

Now that the News says Opposition to the War has 'Bottomed Out', we can watch Dubya spin that the Ship of State hasn't 'Run Aground'.

Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 11:57 AM)

Saudi Arabia is holding the Arab Summit in Riyadh. On Wedenesday, King al Abdullah, said 'the U.S. invasion of Iraq was an illegal occupation." The King cancelled a State Department dinner invation for next month.Prince Bandar, a long time friend of the Bush family, resigned as Saudi ambassador in December. The Saudis have brokered their own deal with the Palestinians. Are they just doing this publicly to distance themselves from the United States to gain more leverage in the Arab world? And does saying we are illegal occupiers justify killing U. S. soldiers? bin Laden also siad we were illegal occupiers when we had bases in Saudi Arabia. bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia.

Desmond (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 12:03 PM)

Ravine: Know what you mean in more ways than one. There are lots of veterans, lots of casualties of war, who have to listen to chickenhawk squat here and in the administration. They have a right to their opinion, but it still hurts to hear them squawk about what they know not. Don't think they care much. Don't think they think much at all beyond their own personal ego-bubble. Don't know how these hawks without souls can sleep at night. Guess you had to be there.

Mark Thieme (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 12:20 PM)

The Saudi Royal Family has gotten pretty good at working both sides of the street. The biggest threat to their despotism comes from within and that's what they fear the most. Bin Laden got his start in the jihad business against the Russians in Afghanistan, with US backing, defending islam against infidel agression. His motivation transferred to the US because of our military's presence in Saudi Arabia and our support of Israel. When the Saudi monarchy collapses, that country will become our worst nightmare.

Scott in South Texas (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 12:32 PM)

"Where have all the soldiers gone, long time passing Where have all the soldiers gone, long time ago. Where have all the soldiers gone, gone to graveyards every one When will they ever learn, When will they ever learn"-Where Have all the Flowers Gone"-Pete Seeger/Peter Paul and Mary

Still Crazy After All these Years (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 12:41 PM)

ravine yes surges do not work and everyone knew and knows that except for a few who will beleive anything. puppet goverments dont work either such as when russia had one in afghan or the shah of iran(no wonder iran hates us) and now a puppet in iraq. iraqs problems will only be solved by iraqs. just a reminder on yesterdays date in 1973 the last Americam military left viet nam and A. no one followed us home except democracy minded vietnamese(good) B. Americans stopped dying in nam that day(better). C. those who were payin attention learned a lesson(not bush or neocons--bad). Maybe just maybe iraq will reinforce the lesson that should have been learned after nam(some of us did learn from our mistakes). I'm just wondering what bush will call his next mistake in iraq, any suggestions out there?

ex-marine,vietvet (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 12:53 PM)

I learned in school that when something stops increasing it has "peaked" or "topped out." Applying the term "bottomed out" to the war opposition leaves me scratching my head. The usual convention is that graphs are drawn with the smaller numbers at the bottom and the larger numbers at the top. "Support for it is no longer in freefall" --- I predict support will stop dropping when it hits zero; you heard it here first.

Russell in Maryland (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 1:35 PM)

"Dad's Gonna Kill Me"-Richard Thompson (download lyrics for free)

Still Crazy After All These Years (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 1:42 PM)

"There's a fragrance that's here today and they call it...Charlie..."

Dorothy (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 1:46 PM)

ex-marine- "I'm just wondering what Bush will call his next mistake in Iraq..? He'll call it "Congress's fault". He's going to blame every failure on them now. He has a new scapegoat. The man rides a "Horse Called War"-(Black Label Society)

M.E., Albany, Ga. (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 1:52 PM)

ex marine, by the time all the troops are over there for this surge (June), he will say we need to have patience . That takes us to the end of December. I heard 5 National guard troops are probably going to be called up in next January. So, it will give him a pass, as that will be his last term in office. He will not have to call it anything. The wheels are already in motion. He'll pass the buck to the next guy and go back to the ranch. The generals seem to have put all the plans in place to extend it out.We'll learn about that, after the fact.

Desmond (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 2:07 PM)

ex-marine; you are absolutely right, the enemy didn't follow us home. The same B.S. was being spread when we were serving; "we have to stop communism abroad before it reaches our shores". Too many of our brothers in arms paid the ultimate price upholding a failed strategy. Too many of our sons and daughters are now doing the same decades later. The saddest part of all, led by leaders who did not have the fortitude to serve themselves.

Ravine Force, Kissimmee, FL (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 3:48 PM)

"man of god, man of god, aint no messin' with the man of god"-Man of god -Eliza Gilkryson

Still Crazy After All These Years (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 4:06 PM)

"The legend lives on, from the Chippewa on down, from the big lake they call Gitchee Goomee, Superior, they said, never gives up her dead, when the gales of November come early...."--Gordon Lightfoot

Dorothy (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 4:22 PM)

ex-marine, viet vet: I'm from your era, and didn't serve. Number was 126, they got up to 80 my year. We lost 80-90000 men during the 4-6 weeks euphemistically called the Battle of the Bulge in WWII. We got our clocks initially cleaned due to faulty intelligence(sound familiar? or do you need Hue as a reminder?) We also got our clocks cleaned during that initial fighting because we underestimated the will and fighting reserve of our enemy, the Germans (sound familiar, or do you need the NVA as comparison?) How can you POSSIBLY be for surrender and capitulation now, with the same scenarios that played out in WWII (luckily we won), and "Nam (unluckily we lost)? Don't you think things would have been different in 'Nam, if those a------s in Wahington hadn't pulled the rug out from under the military, back in '72-73? I want an answer,'cause I was there in '72-73, and I believed our Government did the WRONG thing back then, just like they are tryng to do now. Also, thank you for your service. Your bravery can never be questioned. You have my lifelong respect for what you did for us, and for me.

jtb (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 4:48 PM)

jtb, if your so gung ho why did you not enlist? I enlisted A patriotism B I did not know if the war was right or wrong so decided to see for myself, I found out it was wrong by being there and seeing things with my own eyes. I learned to vote only for people who had intellegence and common sense and who did not have a desire to control the whole world but rather to work with everyone for the good of everyone. The south viet govt. was a puppet for years and just one of the reasons why they lost. If we had used your plan we would still have Americans dying in nam today. again why didn't you enlist instead of waiting to be drafted, were you afraid or is it that you don't really beleive what you say? walk the walk, there is nothing stopping you from getting on a plane and going to iraq nd being the tough guy you pretend you are. cutting and running is what you are doing by not ever serving then barking at those who dissagree with your warmongering/chickenhawkin beak flappin philosophy.

ex-marine,vietvet (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 5:20 PM)

ex-marine,vietvet===Well said.

Seattle Sue (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 7:12 PM)

Ex-Marine,Vietvet - your comment about finding out it was wrong by being there and seeing things with your own eyes sounds like my kid's view of what's happening in Iraq. He was assigned to a small group of men responsible for protecting and escorting a high ranking officer and VIP guests all over northern and eastern Iraq. In high school my son was diagnosed with a heart condition that would have kept him out of the military. During college he underwent risky surgery to correct the problem and as soon as he was recovered he enlisted in the National Guard. He loves being in the Guard and he's proud he chose to serve his country, but he thinks the Iraq war is the worst mistake in American history. He's a brilliant scholar and he's won all sorts of awards in the Guard (definately not a cowardly, uneducated twit), so I believe him when he says bring the troops home now, it's a civil war and we can't stop it even if we stay a hundred years. It took awhile after he got home before he would say much about Iraq, but as the debacle drags on he gets angrier and angrier and the stories are starting to pour out of him...such as being betrayed time after time by the Iraqi Police, fighting an invisable enemy, finding tortured bodies and more. He'd like to send all the chickenhawks over to see things up close and personal in the slums of Baghdad or in 'towns' that don't exist on any map.

Mel, Ill (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 9:00 PM)

"War, what is it good for? Absolutely nothing. War, what is it good for? ... Friend only to the undertaker..." War

Jane, Southern Mississippi (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 11:51 PM)

I've heard that a good soldier trains for war, but knows it's best if things can be solved without war. Sometimes they can.

Jane, Southern Mississippi (Sent Friday, March 30, 2007 11:53 PM)

from columnist Howard Fineman, "...Republicans will rely on Rove’s argument that emerged after 9/11: that the GOP, led by Bush, does not flinch from war; that the war on terror is unlimited in space and time; and that those who think otherwise are misguided, weak-kneed or naive enablers of the enemy." Those talking points sound familiar here? Every week we are bombarded with some new or recycled alias who finds a way to say this in at least 20 windy posts a day. Sure, it makes it more fun. Once in a while one of these trolling troubadours even makes sense, and someone here will reply breathlessly, "Gee, I find myself agreeing with you! Don't agree with you much, but respect your right to an opinion. Keep posting!" Nothing to take too seriously. Right? Yesterday (Friday), as we whiled away our idle hours posting rebuttals to robots, there was fresh blood on the ground... 152 civilians killed in Iraq in one bombing attack alone(collateral surge damage?). Feeding trolls may seem innocuous fun, but that bright red stain on their talking points is blood.

Mark Thieme (Sent Saturday, March 31, 2007 3:37 PM)

"Silent Night"-Simon and Garfunkel

Still Crazy After All These Years (Sent Saturday, March 31, 2007 4:48 PM)

"Today, in Baghdad, a bomb kills forty-seven and wounds over one hundred, leaving a crater ten feet deep. The stunned gather body parts from the roadway to collect in cardboard boxes which will not be taped and shipped to the White House lawn, not buried under the green sod thrown over, box by box emptied into the rich soil in silence while a Marine sentry stands guard at the National Monument, Tomb of the Unknown, our own land given to these, to say if this is freedom, then we will share it." - Brian Turner, poet and veteran of Operation Iraqi Freedom

Mel, Ill (Sent Sunday, April 01, 2007 6:16 PM)

Mel, The freedom of the dead and forgotten: "...if this is freedom, then we will share it." Nothing left to be said, but thank you.

Mark Thieme (Sent Monday, April 02, 2007 10:25 AM)

ex-marine: thank you for your answer. Guess no one has a right to an opinion about war, unless they've served and carried a gun. O.K., will you support dismissing or excluding EVERYONE in Congress from debating OR VOTING on the Iraq War who hasn't picked up a gun? and no fair excepting those that AGREE with you. That excludes hundreds of Democrat, as well as Republican Congresspersons. Oh, yeah, since you've never been a physician, you have no valid opinion on our health care, and, since you've never been a disaster worker, you have no opinion on the Katrina mess. If you're gonna p--s all over my opinions, not on their merit, but because I've never pointed an AR15 at anyone's nose, then deny everyone else that right, too. I don't mind being called out, just be honest and demand the same yardstick from everyone. Again, thank you for your service.

jtb (Sent Monday, April 02, 2007 2:15 PM)

ex marine: John McCain, who I have disagreed with on many occasions, calls the Iraq timetable legislation the "Tell you enemy when you are going to surrender" legislation. His opinion on Iraq is the same as mine. Can't impugne his War service, or lack of it. He's a 'Nam vet also, and, unless you can tell me you spent ONE MORE DAY at the Hanoi Hilton than he did, how about your opinion now?? You both can't be right: is he "more right" than you, because he was tortured by the NVA????????????? Is he justified in pulling rank ON YOU, and denigrating your opinion, because you didn't go through what he did?? I want another answer. Or better,to hell with me, 'cause I never was in 'Nam. Why don't you ask Sen McCain yourself?? You got the B-LLS to ask, like I did of you???

jtb (Sent Monday, April 02, 2007 3:19 PM)

jtb I see ya are still running and hidding first ya dont volunteer and enlist now ya run and hide behind mccain. why did ys not enlist when ya had the chance? just be honest and admitt your a chickenhawk then move on .

ex-marine,vietvet (Sent Tuesday, April 03, 2007 11:50 AM)

Looks like Micah Wright may be alive and well at the Newshole.
http://jimtreacher.com/ranger.htm

Wayne, M'town TN (Sent Wednesday, July 11, 2007 1:08 PM)

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