ABOUT FIRST READ

First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Iraq

Posted: Monday, April 30, 2007 9:22 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: , ,

 

The White House is passing around this quote press secretary Tony Snow, who returns to work today, made this morning on ABC: "Of course people want to be out of the war. On the other hand, do people want to adopt a strategy that is going to weaken the hands of the troops who are there? In other words, do you want to bind our forces by saying, 'We're going to give you a timetable for withdrawal,' knowing that that strengthens the hands of the enemy?… If you frame it that way, I’d love to see the poll results. Why don't you try that one in the next poll because my guess is the American people will say 'No, that's insane!'" 

In advance of Bush’s upcoming veto of the Iraq supplemental, the Washington Post looks at the key reason why most Republicans aren’t going along with any withdrawal deadlines, even though a majority supports the: The GOP base isn’t letting them. “That cohesion reflects the views of the GOP's core voters, who see the war in Iraq in fundamentally different terms than Democrats and political independents do, said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. Voters from those groups tend to see unremitting gloom, but Republican base voters continue to see a conflict that is going reasonably well, with a decent chance of military success. “‘That's the dilemma for Republicans going forward,’ Kohut said yesterday. ‘They've got to look out for their base, but they have to acknowledge the independents have aligned themselves with the way Democrats are thinking on the issue of Iraq.’”

Bob Novak offers up a positive look at one Republican who isn’t heeding to the base on Iraq, Chuck Hagel. Novak concludes: "Hagel represents millions of Republicans who are repelled by the Democratic personal assault on Bush but deeply unhappy about his course in Iraq."

The New York Times front-pages how national security adviser Stephen Hadley “is interviewing candidates, including military generals, for a new high-profile job that people in Washington are calling the war czar. The official … would brief Mr. Bush every morning on Iraq and Afghanistan, then prod cabinet secretaries into carrying out White House orders… [T]he idea that the national security adviser is subcontracting responsibility for the nation’s most pressing foreign policy crisis … is provoking criticism of Mr. Hadley himself, and how he has navigated the delicate internal politics of a White House famous for its feuding.”

On Saturday, Obama and Clinton spoke to the very anti-war crowd at California’s Democratic convention, and Newsday suggests that Obama's speech was a direct attack on Clinton even though he never mentioned her by name. “‘I am proud that I stood up in 2002 when it wasn't popular to stand up and urged leaders not to take us down this dangerous path!’ he shouted, voice breaking. ‘Many of you did the same and said this was a bad idea when it wasn't popular to say this was a bad idea!’ he added, to wild applause. ‘ ... But the war went forward and now we've seen those consequences and we mourn the dead and wounded.’”

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jerry/corpus. I've got some friends down at the gun range who would definitely consider you, 'Their Kind Of Woman".
Yes, Mark, yes, Gary, you are both correct. My derision aimed at Johnny Justice is in his simpleton/jingo-istic solution to a complex problem. Leaving Iraq must include military/politically negotiated solutions that result in the least amount of American casualties possible. The Dems ought to put you guys, as well as Ryan and Scott/Oregon in charge of their think tank: you guys have the clearest vision of what the realty of Iraq is, and the best recommendations for our disengagement I've read so far, from EITHER SIDE of Washington's aisle.
Let me join James if offering my thanks to Ryan for his thoughtful and respectful contribution to this conversation. And let me thank jerry for providing a perfect example of the complete opposite end of the spectrum, with his proposed solution of "kill them all, man womam and child", with a nice touch of unmitigated bigotry and attempted machismo.
"The President looks in the mirror and speaks His shirts are clean but his country reeks Unpaid bills, in Afhganistan hills"-Bombs Away-Sting/Police
James - Thanks. I am of the opinion that a lot more gets accomplished when you respect the people that you are discussing with. I, for the most part, agree with your "scenario". As I stated in my earlier post, I'm not sure what to do. It seems as though the risks are high on both sides of the argument. We can argue till we are blue in the face why we are in this situation, and that is a valid discussion, but the question of the hour is "what do we do now?" and if your answer is something close to "leave" or "redeploy", does that mean you are ok with the consequences of leaving? And if your answer is something close to "stay" or "do more", does that mean that you are ok with those consequences? For me, as of now, and what I know, I would have to say that I am in the "stay" or "do more" camp and I believe the consequences of staying, at this time, are less then the consequencs of leaving. Now, I say this having little to no skin in the game. I can't imagine how difficult it is for lives of family memebers and friends of those serving our great country in the military.
"The President looks in the mirror and speaks His shirts are clean but his country reeks Unpaid bills, in Afhganistan hills"-Bombs Away-Sting/Police
Ryan, I have to take exception to the very idea that the opinion of Americans at large can affect whether or not we win in Iraq. Wars are not faught based on what people think at home. They are faught based on the stategies of the commanders and with the blood, sweat and tears of the troops. Believe me, it was not a majority of Americans that sent the troops to Iraq without body armor and uparmored Hummvees. It was not the American people who decided to disband the Iraqi millitary and to purge the Baathists from public office. We are losing this war because the President and the rest of this administration has consistently ignored the advice of the professional leadership of the armed forces. Shinseki is a name that should come up often when discussing why we are not winning this conflict. You are a reasonable voice from the right and I very much enjoy your participation in this blog. But I think that making statements that imply that the civilian populace can have any real impact on this conflict is simply untrue. Especially considering as most Americans would have sent the right amount of troops with the right equipment to do the job in the first place. Well... a fair amount of us wouldn't have sent them in the first place, but that is kind of a moot point these days.
Ryan - by that definition, we'd won before we invaded. It's like chasing all the cows out of the barn yard then declaring 4 years later that we will achieve "victory" when all the cows are back. We made Iraq a safe haven for terrorists.
Jerry/corpus christi--Maybe we should bring LT Calley out of retirement. He did wonders at My Lai with a single Company and some ditches. At least until that pesky Hugh Thompson set his Huey down between Charlie company and and what was left of the villagers. The bastard must have beenn a liberal. Your a man with a plan Jerry. History is full of folks just like you. Keep the faith man. One People, One Nation, One Leader.
Peeps, I am just a crappy two-fingered typist but thanks for the correction. Jerry, you've been reading too many "Destroyer" novels
Ryan - If we 'stay', we just waste more young American lives. I truly don't believe we have the military capability at this point to 'do more', at least to do enough to win. The military is too tired and over-extended to do what it would take to win under your definition. Redeploying the troops is the only option that makes any sense to me. I don't believe the 'fight them there or they'll follow us home' line. If we utilize the resources being wasted in Iraq now to better secure this nation, that gives us a much better chance of avoiding another 9/11 than staying on the battlefields in Iraq.
John - I think what the editorial was trying to get across was that public opinion means a lot during a war. Just think how "well thought of", not sure if that's the right term, the Persian Gulf War was in comparisson to Vietnam. Probably a bad comparison now that I think about it but its a comparison none the less. Public opinion can determine whether the President has the military stick it out in a tough situation or retreat/pull out. As I have stated in a previous post in this thread, obviously there are many other things that affect the outcome of a war, but I think what the editorial was getting at was don't count out public opinion in affecting whether a war is won or lost. Lee - I think there are a few million people in Iraq that might say that the Iraqi government was not "a representative government that respects the human rights of all Iraqis". Also, even though our presence there has brought in terrorists from other countries I would find it hard to say that Iraq is a "safe haven" for terrorists.
Ryan - agree with first part - not second, but I will concede you are the rare right winger posting here that isn't a foaming, hate-filled moron.
"Your lips move but you can't talk"-Tryin'To Throw Your Arms Around The World-U2
Bush only sees one thing now, How history will view him and his administration. Its not about how many soldiers get killed each month, or how much money we waste on reconstruction, or how many terrorist attachs there are each year. If that were the case he couldnt possibly get up there and say progress is being made. Most soldiers killed this month than past three since the surge started. The govt just came out with a report stating most of the money we've spent in Iraq for reconstruction is being wasted on shotty workmanship or being destroyed by terrorists or being stolen by corrupt Iraqis. Another report just came out stating in 2006, terrorist attacks are up 25%. Does this sound like progress on any level? Get out of there and find a political solution, whether its splitting up Iraq in 3, or something else, Do something, only crazy people think you can keep doing the same thing over and over and expect a different result . ps Jerry/cc gets to do a lot a thinkin down there in Tx. Maybe its time to start a think tank of your own
I have to agree Lee, I have said it once, I will say it again, you can't put the genie back into the bottle. It is utterly heartbreaking that we have stirred up this conflict and for what?? My problem Ryan is that I see no end in site here and there are innocent lives being lost because of this administrations blunder. It is inexcusible. We had no reason to go in and now we have made it impossible to leave. Is that enough to ask these young men and women to give their lives for????? I don't know.
we have no business being in the middle of iraq's civil war,our president is by definition a facist,who are we to decide what type of goverment iraq has,the republican party has evolved into some kind of a self proclaimed god,I will let all you good republicans in on a little secret,you don't know whats best for this or anyother country and your rein of terror is shortly coming to it's end
Ryan- "but the question of the hour is "what do we do now?" and if your answer is something close to "leave" or "redeploy", does that mean you are ok with the consequences of leaving?" Great question. Most of us have no personal stake in this war, and it is a tremendous sacrifice for our military. No doubt. I wish they were all home now. In fact, I wish they had never been sent in the first place (the American people broke its promise to the military by sending them to fight this unnecessary war). I can understand the desire to pull them out and end the "war." In my humble opinion, the only thing right now that can save Iraq and the Iraqi people from devestation is the American military. I have not heard anybody factually support an argument that this will not get far worse if we pull our troops out of Iraq. I am suspicious of rhetoric, but the consensus of the consequences of pulling out now are usually phrased in terms of "humanitarian catastrophe" and "region wide conflict." I personally do not see anything we can do right now militarily apart from stay the course or surge even further. I am personally troubled by those who blame the Iraqi people for the current chaos (e.g., they have hated each other forever, they need to step up, and so on). I do not see how the American people can honestly blame the Iraqi people for the current chaos. Didn't the American people decide to invade and destroy Iraq and directly cause the current situation? My disdain for the basis for this war, the actions of those that led us into this war, and the current administration's conduct throughout this war, is as great as anbody else. But, shouldn't we hold those persons accountable, rather than allow our anger to destroy potentially hundreds of thousands more innocent lives in Iraq as a result of a mess that is of our country's own making. There is no "do-over" here. For those advocating a pull out of our military, I have asked it before and I will ask it again. If the world put you and only you in charge of deciding what to do in Iraq today, and begged you to get it right, would you pull the American military out knowing the likely consequences your actions would bring? We ask that our leaders do everything to prevent the horrible killing of 33 college students here, but cavalierly suggest that it do nothing to stop the killing of hundreds of thousands of innocents elsewhere. Even more perplexing, is that those hundreds of thousands would die as a direct result of our nation's own actions. One lesson from all of this is to beware of the tough-talkers. This includes those who blithely support blowing up other countries, as well as those who blithely support leaving millions to die in our wake.
"Your lips move but you can't talk Tryin' to throw your arms around the world"-Tryin' To Throw Your Arms Around The World-U2
Brian you and some others have a preordained decision as to what will happen(something bad,very bad)if we leave soon(rather than stay for how long?) on what basis is your opinion and what facts do you use(you say no one has good reason to leave soon). I dont believe there is certain regional conflict and certain devestation to happen. I remember when we left nam no one followed us here. The viets settled their scores, they would have settled them sooner but we were in the middle just like now. Sooner or later iraqs will settle things once we leave and I do not call that quitting or running only using good common sense. If we had never invaded iraq they would still be killing each other and would settle things sooner. Just the opinion of someone who served and saw with my own eyes how these things work.
"Because of the importance of Iraq, the potential for catastrophe, and the role and commitments of the United States in initiating events that have led to the current situation, we believe it would be wrong for the United States to abandon the country through a precipitate withdrawal of troops and support. A premature American departure from Iraq would almost certainly produce greater sectarian violence and further deterioration of conditions, leading to a number of the adverse consequences outlined above. The near-term results would be a significant power vacuum, greater human suffering, regional destabilization, and a threat to the global economy. Al Qaeda would depict our withdrawal as a historic victory. If we leave and Iraq descends into chaos, the long-range consequences could eventually require the United States to return." Iraq Study Group Report, p.30. I agree with all that this cannot be won merely militarily (and that the current administration has not shown any competence in dealing with this mess), but can anybody give me any evidence that Study Group was wrong and that declaring the war lost and pulling our troops out is the right idea?
For Brian in Seattle, I don't think you give Ryan enough rein. Ryan's original comment posted at 11:07 a.m. would seem to nullify your objections. Aside from a few opinions expressed by a few (maybe needing Thorazine) this seems to have been a, for the most part, reasoned, well thought out discussion. It takes some time but it is helpful to start at the beginning. It seems that the majority of opinion leans toward a "just what do we do now?" third. A get the heck out now third, try to leave with some sort of livable resolution third. I do realize of course that splitting the discussion into thirds renders my opinion as to any consensus, null. Of course if you ask me what might be done. I posted it at 12:24 p.m..
Brian, Seattle-- I understand your conflicted feelings about leaving a country that we chose to invade in a mess. I too am angered by people who blame the Iraqis for a mess that we hastened by our invasion. Our options are few and all bad. We can either commit, at great bloody cost, to an open ended occupation of a country in which we are even now building walls to separate the citizens or we can resolve to disentangle ourselves now hopefully by replacing our presence with the presence of combined force of interested Iraqi neighbors. The first option merely delays the inevitable and prolongs the pain. The second option is hard to accomplish when our leaders refuse to engage in the diplomacy of realism. I support disentanglement now because it will result in fewer American deaths and allow our damaged army to rebuild itself. I support disentanglement now because although it will undoubtedly result in continued Iraqi civil war, it will hasten it's end. I support disentanglement now so that the blame for this "messOpotamia" may be place squarely on the single person ultimately responsible for the conduct of war and foreign policy. The greatest service of this presidency will be as an example of how not to do it. He really Bushed it this time.
Ryan, You make a good point regarding how civilian oppinion can affect decisions made by politicians regarding the war effort. However, I would submit to you that the polls will never actually cause the defeat on the battlefield. The very fact that the majority of people don't support the Iraq war should give some indication that it is a lost cause. Take for example, Market Garden in World War 2. That operation (and I view Iraq as a singular operation in the larger War on Terror) completely fell on its a** and delayed the end of the war by months if not years. So what did the leadership do? They pulled out of Belgum (Holland? Sorry, my WW2 history is not what it should be) and focused on a new tactic. But retreating on that one front did not equate to surrendering to the Nazis. Nor does pulling out of Iraq equate to surrendering to Al Quieda. Iraq is a failed operation in a larger war. The longer we pursue this misadventure in Iraq the harder it will be to prevail in theaters like Afghanistan and the several covert fronts that I have no proof of but am quite certain are being fought.
John Doe,Somalia?
Ex-marine. I agree, but my decision is not preordained. I am looking for a reason to believe that it will be okay if we remove our troops now so I can understand the position that we should. I am not advocating that it is preordained that it will be a catastrophe. I am uncomforatble with the rhetoric. I just have seen nothing to suggest it won't be a catastrophe. We got into this mess by relying on statements (e.g., invade and we will be greated as liberators, set up democracy and it will flourish) without evidentiary support. So, before I back the pull-out plan, I want to ensure that the "leave and they will take care of themselves" statement is not the same type of wishful but unfortunately factually unsupportable type of thinking. The Iraq Study Group is about the best (not perfect, mind you) and neutral analysis that I know of on the situation. The Study Group, and every other opinion I have seen, suggests it will be disasterous to leave Iraq and to allow it to disintegrate. My invitation for evidence that this is wrong and things will not become disasterous if we pull out was just that--an invitation. And, thank you for your service, we are all grateful.
If only there hadn't been such wide-spread election fraud in Ohio, in '04. Then I'd say: "OK, the citizens of the US, no matter how stupidly, have re-elected a towering puppet of a man to bungle further the most expensive $$$$up in history. Give the malfeasant corporate lesser ape what he wants, even if it means pointless quagmire with no real leadership efforts until we can legally hustle him off the scene in '08." But there was. And he doesn't deserve our trust, faith or power. Google: GAO report Ohio vote fraud - The Iraqi's are NEVER going to "stand -up" without a good, SOLID push! Deadlines. Benchmarks and "artificial" (whatever that 18th century French prince means by that) time tables. Like another poster stated - he can't afford to give up those "Patriot" {spit} act dictatorial powers until he's ready to haul his yankee cowboy saddle out of town. God knows what those crept criminals plan if there's no in-coming repu to automatically start handing out pardons. Good-bye, Akron (or Witchita - I haven't decided, but it 'll be a red state. Can't be Omaha. Can't be a Mississippi river town. Can't be up wind of D.C. or Aspen, or Tetons, or Great Lakes... )
Herschel, I had read the posts and was agreeing with Ryan and the question he was asking. I think it is the most important question to be asking right now. If there was any misunderstanding, I apologise.
Gary agreed. I have no party affiliation, and would like nothing more than to see the current administration held responsible. Our current political leaders are incapable of addressing the diplomatic and economic tact necessary in Iraq. The only near-term solution I can see (apart from pulling out and letting chaos ensue) is to try to hold on miliatarily until we have somebody who can actually work to stablize the situation. But, if Congress and American citizens are advocating pull out now, then as an American citizen I want a debate on those consequences--just like I wanted a debate on the consequences of starting this war. I want us all to know what we are agreeing to.
re note in First Read's paragraph: " the key reason why most Republicans aren’t going along with any withdrawal deadlines, even though a majority supports the: The GOP base isn’t letting them. “That cohesion reflects the views of the GOP's core voters, who see the war in Iraq in fundamentally different terms than Democrats and political independents do, said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. Voters from those groups tend to see unremitting gloom, but Republican base voters continue to see a conflict that is going reasonably well, with a decent chance of military success." This may sound naive but isn't it the job of the candidates to tell the "base" what the truth is? I don't just mean what I believe to be the truth. If a candidate does believe the war is going badly, isn't it his responsibility to let his "base" know that? I am being naive, huh? I truly don't understand this. If an electorate has an opinion on something such as abortion, I can understand an elected official "representing" that opinion. But about this war? It either is going well or it isn't. That isn't something that is decided by the "base" but by facts. I, of course, don't believe the facts support that the conflict is "going well" but ..........
re note in First Read's paragraph: " the key reason why most Republicans aren’t going along with any withdrawal deadlines, even though a majority supports the: The GOP base isn’t letting them. “That cohesion reflects the views of the GOP's core voters, who see the war in Iraq in fundamentally different terms than Democrats and political independents do, said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. Voters from those groups tend to see unremitting gloom, but Republican base voters continue to see a conflict that is going reasonably well, with a decent chance of military success." This may sound naive but isn't it the job of the candidates to tell the "base" what the truth is? I don't just mean what I believe to be the truth. If a candidate does believe the war is going badly, isn't it his responsibility to let his "base" know that? I am being naive, huh? I truly don't understand this. If an electorate has an opinion on something such as abortion, I can understand an elected official "representing" that opinion. But about this war? It either is going well or it isn't. That isn't something that is decided by the "base" but by facts. I, of course, don't believe the facts support that the conflict is "going well" but ..........
Ryan, thirty odd years ago I was injured in a terrible head-on car accident. I had a severe concussion, broken bones, ripped apart joints, ruptured discs and damaged retinas. I've had several major surgeries and I live with chronic (quite often excrutiating) pain. All that pales in comparison to the agony of sending my son to fight in Iraq.
well let's see here. A Bigot? I'm sure there are 3000 souls floating around from the world trade center and flight 93 and the pentagon that would agree with my assessment of what to do with the ragheads. The only true heroes on that day was the team from flight 93. They did the same thing I would have done, fought to the death. When are you liberals going to wake up and smell the coffee burning at the bottom of your pot? I still see Nick berg, sitting there while some dumb raghead chops off his head while he is just sitting there. When these guys take you hostage, you have only one way out, you fight and kill everyone in the room, if you die, atleast you fought, you didn't sit there and LET them cut off your head. As far as the rest of the world, to this day, I don't give a dog about the rest of the world. The rest of the world bows to us, that is the facts. I agree with several well known people that there should be no foreign aid to any of those countries who bad mouth us. I think the United nations is crooked and we should be charging them rent instead of paying dues to this mafia style syndicate.
All of the reports I have seen estimate the number of Al Qaida Forces in IRAQ to be about 2000 and not more than 3000. We have 150,000 U.S. troops, 13,000 Allied Troops and the U.S. Trained (By General Petraeus) Iraqi Security Force is now 325,000. That's 488,000 good guys vs. 3000 Bad Guys. This disaster has lasted for 4 years and the violence is just getting worse. There are over 6.5 Billion folks on this earth and about 25% are Muslims that amounts to 1,600,000,000 Muslins. What percentage are Terrorists? How about only 1 Terrorist per 10,000 Muslims. How many terrorists would that be? How about 160,000? Are we the greatest Super Power in the world going to DEFEAT THEM Militarily? If your answer is yes, please explain why 488,000 troops have not been able to "DEFEAT" 3000 Al Quaida ( TERRORISTS ) in Iraq. 47% of all Iraqi's (over 10 Million) say that it is OK to KILL Americans in Iraq.Are we fight 3000 Al Quaida or 10 Million Iraqi's? If you extrapolate that to the total Muslim Population that's over 1 BILLION that would answer that it is OK to Kill Americans. The "FREE" Nations of the World need to find ways to combat the "TERRORISTS" Ideology with means other than Bombs,Bullets and B.S. That approach is simply creating more enemies every day. Maybe we should have the Republican and Democratic Propaganda Machines "SELL" America and Democracy to the Muslim World instead of using Smear Campaigns against each other.
Did you all miss the latest Poll regarding where the American People stand on IRAQ? WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two out of three Americans think the country is on the wrong track, according to an NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll released on Wednesday April 24, 2007. Only 22 percent of Americans think the country is moving in the right direction, while 66 percent think it's on the wrong track, the poll of 1004 adults taken April 20-23 showed. That compared with 58 percent who saw the country heading down the wrong track and 25 percent who saw it moving in the right direction in a NBC/WSJ poll taken in March. NBC News said the poll numbers point to one compelling reason why that should be the case: the war in Iraq. Asked if the situation in Iraq has improved, deteriorated or stayed the same over the last three months, just 12 percent said it had improved while 49 percent said things were getting worse. Some 37 percent saw no change in the situation. Asked if the war could still be won, 55 percent said it could not while 36 percent said it could. And some 56 percent of those polled backed Democratic efforts to impose a deadline for withdrawal of U.S. troops, while 37 percent shared President George W. Bush's view that no deadline should be set by politicians in Washington.
Jerry, everybody--yes including liberals--believe in defending ourselves against terrorists. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. If you are advocating indiscriminately killing middle eastern people so you feel safer that is cowardice, not courage, no matter how tough the language you use to describe it.
So why does the Republican base like the way things are going in Iraq? I believe it is because they think it is bringing us closer to armegedon and the "end times" when Jesus returns and they will be raptured into heaven. They want it to be an even bigger disaster; that is why you cannot convince them to pull out. I have talked to these people and they are some really sick puppies. Unfortunately they are also about 20% of the voters.
Brian, seattle yes I appreciate your response to quote your post of 6:58 "I have just seen nothing to suggest it wont be a catastrophy" this statement I interpret as you believe it will be a catastrphy please correct me if I am wrong. I see it as the iraqs were already killing each other before we ever got there so whatever they do when we leave no matter when we leave is up to iraqs not me or you. I also believe it is wrong to send someone else to do the dirty work, therefore I would never condone sending anyone to do something I would not do myself. The reasons bush gives for staying keep changing, it is like there is no end zone to use a football term, just how many yards do we expect our troops to run?
jerry and jtb, you have converted me. I am now a republican, as a result of your posts no sane person could argue with. I think we should make all the countries of the world do as we say and be what we say they should be. We know best how to use their countries for our own ends. They need us to keep them in line and we need their natural resources and strategic locations. How else will be able to conquer other countries and enjoy the spoils of war, if we fail in Iraq? Wars are money-making bonanzas, with our profits coming from investing in all sides. This is Economics 101! And if it takes all our young, so be it. Our cause is noble!
"I went out drinking with Thomas Paine He said that all revolutions are not the same They are as different as their cultures That gave them birth For no one idea Can solve every problem on Earth"-North Sea Bubble-Billy Bragg
Brian in Seattle states, "The Study Group, and every other opinion I have seen, suggests it will be disasterous to leave Iraq and to allow it to disintegrate." You seem to be struggling with what you know is the right thing to do because you believe the notion that if the troops are removed that all hell will break loose. As long as you believe that, then the troops will never (I mean that literally) never leave. George Bush would like you to believe that. There are lots of options in play that open up once the U.S. makes the decision that it's time to begin withdrawing troops. However, exploring those options, won't take place until we make the decision. Furthermore, the possibility that our troops might have to "come back later" is not a good reason to leave them there now. At least, in the come back later scenario, there will be a military objective. Right now there is not. Playing babysitter and referee is not a military objective. My advice to you Brian is to stop the hand wringing over what to do. Let go of the oh my gosh What then? deliberation. The U.S. needs to make the decision to get the troops out (you can't remove them all in one day anyway) - It has to be a phased withdrawel - just for logistical reasons. As the withdrawel happens, we will be forced then to find other ways of helping Iraq maintain order, preserve peace, and prevent the country from disintegrating. Your struggle with allowing yourself to accept that it's time for the troops to leave gives the impression that you still believe the troops are actually doing some good and being effective. They are not. Believe there are other options. It's hard to believe because our reliance on military presence has eclipsed discussion and implementation of other viable options.
If you read jerry's last post (4/30 9:07 pm), you'll see the republican base they're talking about. Are republicans actually looking to jerry, et al for guidance and direction?
Jerry, Corpus Christi: You seem a bit troubled about your place in the world and the capacity of humans to do evil. The terrorist groups don't have a monopoly on heinous acts or the ability to do awful things. In times of war, throughout the history of mankind, humans have done very awful things to each other. Furthermore, you seem to have a superiority complex with regard to the United States. Hollywood produced war movies and military history films may make you feel this way. They are not based on reality. In times of war the U.S. isn't always as "pure" as we would like to think. Like it or not, we are merely one nation in a whole world of many nations. We all have more in common than we do different. Condemming a whole nation or whole race of people because of the "bad acts" of a few only makes you a lesser person.
the united states will never solve iraqs problems,iraq needs to fight it's civil war on it's own they are going to fight one another no matter what we do. All we are doing now is letting bush try to save face,that's not worth the cost.There will never be what most people would consider an acceptable outcome to this mess,we are sending young americans to their death for no good reason,bring them home and move on.This police action was born of lies and has never had a reasonable objective, quit getting our troops killed for purely political reasons,nobody can justify the loss of life for this farce. Limited military action never works if you intend on using the military it better be worth completly destroying your enemy,I don't think there is an enemy in this case.
MK, in Mo: I agree. The reason the U.S. Military is not being effective right now in Iraq is because of what you said. There is no enemy (at least not one that we can readily identify). And, as a result, there is no military objective.


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