First thoughts

Posted: Friday, May 04, 2007 9:14 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: First Thoughts

From Chuck Todd and Mark Murray in Simi Valley, CA
*** Mirror Images: Maybe it's just us, but the most striking impression from last night's GOP presidential debate was how similar it was to the Democratic one. Like the Dem debate, the participants didn't really engage each other, and they actually agreed on many issues. What's more, the buzz candidate (Giuliani, like Obama) ended up disappointing many of the observers. The telegenic one (Romney, like Edwards) demonstrated why many in the party's base like him so much. And the long-standing front-runner (McCain, like Clinton) was solid and reminded us why this person -- despite the obvious dents in his/her armor -- still is one of the party's favorites. The biggest difference? There was no disruptive Gravel at last night’s debate.

*** Still W's Party: NBC's Carrie Dann notes that the candidates mentioned Ronald Reagan's name a whopping 19 times last night. Despite that (and despite the presence of the popular Schwarzenegger and Nancy Reagan in the front row), it was clear to us that this remains George W. Bush's party, even as the candidates did their best in talking about how their administrations would be different. Except Paul, the candidates largely backed the Iraq war; even with Nancy Reagan in the room, most of them opposed her call for expanding embryonic stem cell research; and all of them salivated over tax cuts. McCain and perhaps Huckabee (who wasn’t shy about saying that Rumsfeld should have been fired before last year’s midterms) were the ones who clearly tried to separate themselves from Bush. Yet even McCain is tied to him by the biggest issue of all: Iraq.

*** Giuliani: "OK" doesn't sum up his performance -- it was his response to Chris Matthews’ question if it would be a good day if Roe v. Wade were overturned. “It would be OK,” he said. He started off strong, talking about his achievements as mayor of New York and bringing optimism back to the country. But the rest of his performance was uneven.

*** McCain: There was less consensus about McCain’s when one traveled the spin room. Rival camps did their best to bring up his temper, pitching to reporters of all stripes that the comment about "gates of Hell" was an angry moment. He was confident on the issue of the war, but he also didn't allow himself to look shaky on some social issues that he hasn't enjoyed talking about in the past. Overall, McCain showed that experience with debate formats like last night's was an advantage.

*** Romney: The guy looks great on TV, doesn’t he? He was articulate, and gave a good defense of his pro-life conversion (pointing out that plenty of other famous Republicans had a change of heart as well). If McCain won on the substance, Romney clearly won on style. Yet if there are lingering questions about Obama’s experience -- especially in this post-9/11 world -- you’d have to argue that’s also true for Romney.

*** Brownback: His performance didn’t surprise us a bit: He was the strongest social conservative in the room. But what kind of general-election candidate is he? And if the goal was to separate himself from the rest of the second-tier candidates, he wasn't successful. If anything, one could argue a few other second-tiers did a better job of sticking out than Brownback.

*** Huckabee: He was the calm, cool, and disarming guy we’ve seen for the past couple of years. Which raises the question: Why didn’t he try harder -- a year or two ago -- to build an infrastructure to try to win the nomination?

*** Gilmore: Much like Dodd a week ago, he didn’t really own a moment. But he also showed that he won't be a shrinking violet in these group sessions.

*** Hunter: Anyone else surprised by Hunter's stronger-than-expected performance? He seemed to match McCain on answering the Iraq/Iran questions with authority. And, perhaps more importantly for his campaign, he stood out immigration more so than the candidate who was supposed to be the anti-immigration candidate: Tom Tancredo.

*** Thompson: No candidate looked more uncomfortable last night than Thompson, although he certainly got the point across about how many vetoes he issued as governor of Wisconsin. By the way, Thompson is pulling back from a comment he said about whether private employers should be allowed to discriminate against gay people. At the debate, he said yes, but he now says (in a phoner to CNN) that he misspoke because he didn't hear the question.

*** Tancredo: Perhaps the biggest sign of how cordial last night’s debate was Tancredo’s tone on immigration. Don’t get us wrong, he’s still against it -- but he didn’t raise his voice or really engage his rivals. When re-watching the debate, Tancredo's folks better figure out how to not let Duncan Hunter steal his immigration thunder.

*** Paul: He was no Gravel (thankfully). Some of his responses - especially on Iraq - demonstrated why the GOP is no longer a party of libertarians.

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Comments

Danny Taylor, The republicans have made it quite clear they do not intend to address the immigration issue, too many good republicans are enjoying the riches from slave labor while the taxpayer takes care of the medical and criminal costs.

MK,MO (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 1:23 PM)

If Ron Paul has such great answers, why is he still a Republician in good standing. Talk about selling out!!

Connie, Tn. (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 1:33 PM)

Right on JoeCHI, Chicago, IL With his Clinton bashing and talking over people as he does on hardball only shows of utter stupidity.

Scott. Mo. (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 1:45 PM)

The Republicans sing the praises of Ronald Reagan as often as they blame President Clinton for everything wrong in America, from the Civil War forward. Amnesia about Savings & Loan debacles (costing the American taxpayers billions), Iran-Contra, and the inability to utter the words A.I.D.S. as thousands of Americans died, have defined the Reagan Presidency in many of our eyes...the guy didn't walk on water. None of these white, middle aged, wealthy clowns, offer anything other than "stay the course" and four more years of George W. Bush. No thank you.

Coy Reese, Shady Spring, West Virginia (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 1:54 PM)

Although there isn't a republican on the face of the earth I would ever vote for, for any reason, Ron Paul was impressive. As a pro union, middle class, combat disabled former Marine, until the ignorant cowboy came along, I thought Reagan was about as bad as it could get. Except for Paul, all these other clowns want to be a combination of the two worst presidents in history!

Steve Althouse (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 1:56 PM)

Ron Paul still has the lead in the MSNBC poll. The idea that there's been a unanimous decision by all the MSNBC pundits to ignore Ron Paul, is embarassing to the news organization, and frankly, I'm offended they're ignoring us!

Gregory Crish (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 2:17 PM)

Ten aging, angry men looking like they had just had an enema. Among the top three (a) McCain seems in the early stages of Alzheimer's, like Reagan in his second term, (b) after his performance Giuliani should just come out and admit he likes wearing a dress, and (c) Romney seems so scared both his record as Massachusetts governor it is only a matter of time before we hear his "brainwashing" excuse on abortion. Three among the other seven with so little interest in science they reject evolution out of hand. Why is the religious right so afraid of acknowledging that God created a universe mankind can understand? Why do they not realize that one person can have both a religious faith and a real time world view? Back to the Salem witch trials with this bunch, their version of "Homeland Security".

Gary, Franklin, Wisconsin (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 2:29 PM)

ryan mich, what I find shocking about the desciption of the republican party in these posts is that it tends to be mostly accurate. the republican party has abandoned it's roots , the american people and has became a fascist anything for a buck monster that has nothing to do with conservatism.Take from the poor give to the rich and kill anything that does not agree,shove capitalism down the worlds throat and disregard what anyone else thinks because they are not smart enough to think for themselves thats what your current republican party stands for. The rage is quite overdue and understandable to some people,look at what has taken place over the past 6 years and point out one positive change for this country or globaly,time for change.

MK,MO (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 2:56 PM)

Ryan, Michigan. I am sorry that you are offended by the hate that you perceive emanating from these posts following the Repub. debate. I guess it could be in part that Dems. were taught so well by the right wing bashers and hard line Repub. rhetoric on issues over the past 6 years or so. Remember "it is not patriotic to say we should get out of Iraq". I don't recall any Dems. accusing Repubs. of a lack of patriotism when they were expressing their views in the past. What other kind of response can you expect when these so called candidates continue to bash Clinton 6 years after he left office and you have Boehner spouting the way he does about any Dem. iniative in the house. It appears we are a house divided and will remain so for some time, or at least until the Repubs. learn to sit down and reasonably discuss things as you do most of the time on these blogs.

Dennis E., Dallas, TX (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 2:58 PM)

Ryan, I did not get that feel for most bloggers. But of course I have a different slant on things. I think you might have mistake frustration with hate. Remember the beating us democrats took during the Clinton impeachment days. Now that was true hatred at it's best. Americans were not dying in foreign wars like they are now. Clinton did not condone torture or use renditions like our current one does. Basically the impeachment of Clinton was all about hate from the republican party. The american public saw it for what it was and that was 64 million dollars down the drain over a blowjob. When americans are dying, civl rights being eroded, condoning torture and using rendetion methods, creating deficits etc. These issues bring out the passion in people. It is not just about what he said or she said, it is about how do we get ourselves out of the predicaments we are currently facing now. A president that goes against the public's opinion is going to get hammered. If he is your president, then you are going to have to hang in there. The same thing I had to do during the impeachment/witch hunt of President Clinton. It was not fun listening to the pompous politicians/religious nuts try to out holier than thou the next person. Do not even get me started on the conservative talk/radio shows. Hang in there Ryan, Everything in life is a circle. Republicans and democrats come in and out of power. We can thank the american public for voting either party out when they become to extreme. Like the democrats of the early 90's to the republicans of 2006.

bobf (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 3:29 PM)

Desmond, I don't think you're allowed to say that the Republicans "evolve" on issues instead of flip-flopping. After all, many of them don't believe in evolution. Perhaps they simply "create" new positions on the issues.

Carrie, Elkridge, MD (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 3:41 PM)

I could not disagree with you more concerning your comment about last night's debate being so similar to the Democratic one. Last night, I saw a bunch of white, concervative non-progressives who wanted to see Roe v. Wade overturned, who still could not recognize evolution because it conflicted with their fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible, and who, for the most part, did not want to see stem-cell research advance the way it should, because they could not see the obvious differences between living human beings and babies, as opposed to a fozen stem cell in a refrigerator somewhere. The Republican party just keeps on refusing to evolve and progress, and I find their beliefs and their platform utterly embarrassing and terrifying.

MOnique Viator, Houston, TX (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 3:43 PM)

Yes, we know Republicans don't spout hate. They just call people faggots and link a candidate to Islamo-fascism and proclaim only they have the ear of their god. No hate or exclusion there.It's the grand "Old" Party.

Desmond (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 3:51 PM)

Ryan, if you read my first post from above you will see that I tried to be objective as possible. I am not considering voting for any of the Republican candidates at this time but do respect their positions on the issues. I was not impressed by a few of them but overall I can see where there is the makings of a competitive ticket. Please take the time to read my post and I would be interested in your take on the debates as you always seem to make a lot of sense even though I don't usually agree.

Bob, Orlando (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 3:56 PM)

Ryan - stop, before you make me cry. I can only imagine the angst you must have felt when Chicken Dick called 60% of the country "unpatriotic," especially when we all knew he meant "treasonous." You're going to hate the next several years. At least you are (I think) stable enough to not "eat the gun," which is what I think some of our more famous right wingers might do, IF sanity and reason return to this country. See you in Iran.

Lee in MV (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 3:58 PM)

Ryan, Michigan: I wouldn't call it rage or hate. I would call it outrage and contempt. I really do apologize if anything I, personally, have said has come across as hatred or filled with rage. But I think you, as a Republican, should really examine what your party has done to the country. In the time that the GOP was in complete control of the country they raised the debt cap five times, they went to war based on intelligence that has proven wrong in most cases (including one case of forgery re:the yellow cake misstep), they allowed the major shipping port at the terminus of the busiest waterway in the east to languish after a hurricane, the leadership in Congress hid a sex predator, the leadership in the DOJ fired prosecutors who didn't indict members of the opposition, political operatives gave power point presentations to members of the federal bueracracy on how to use public resources to aide GOP candidates, the Attorney General refered to the Geneva Conventions as "quaint", we have given untold billions of dollars on non-competative government contracts to firms who have direct ties to highest levels of the White House, we have had US citizens spied upon without proper authorization by intelligence agencies who are only allowed to work outside the borders of US unless granted permission by FISA, and they did all of this while taking the largest amount of vacation time in the history of the US Presidency. If outrage and contempt (or heck, even rage and hatred) are not the proper response to what the Republican Party has done, what IS the correct response?? At a certain point we are obligated to call a spade a digging tool. This President has been a train wreck from day one. This adminstration has set the nation as a whole back by decades and they did with the help of the Republicans in Congress. This is not an instance of a rogue President. This a politcal party that has been charmed by radical elements of the far right onto a path that can yield nothing but calamity. And that the base of the GOP refuses to break with their party leaders when it so clear that they are no longer in the mainstream will keep your party in the minority for the next several eleciton cycles. And beleive me, I don't relish that thought. Our system works best when the houses of government are divided. But I will take a long standing Democratic trifecta over a long standing neo-con trifecta any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

John Doe, The Peanut Gallery (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:04 PM)

Carrie, Elkridge MD, 'evolve" has become their mantra for explaining their change on social issues. Mr. Romney has used it.I found it highly amusing.

Desmond (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:05 PM)

correction Dave, TN: Senator Joe Biden's son is in the military. I wish you would watch the Meet The Press video from last Sunday (its on the website.)I think you'd be impressed with Biden.

Amy B (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:10 PM)

I am not Republican hating here. I generally reject the this party or that party arguments, but I was thinking this through and I was having a hard time coming up with anything of any real importance that the Repbulicans in Congress or the Presidency have done right in the last six years. Foreign policy? Education? Taxes? Response to natural disastors? Environment? Security? Immigration? Social Secuirty? Budget? I can on my own come up with what they they have done wrong, as well as what the Democrats have done wrong, but I am really curious what the Republican supporters feel their party has done right. Any thoughts?

Brian, Seattle (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:15 PM)

Ryan-You can look to the neocons, the incompetent Bush administration, Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rove etc. and the republican congress that let this happen (no oversight)for the answer to all the current rhetoric. You seem like a reasonable and thoughful person, but for you to overlook what this President and administration has done to this country, is at best disengenious on your part.

RDP, Chesterfield, MO (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:32 PM)

Dave - Look at the biographical information on the Democratic candidates. Hillary - no sons. Edwards -dead son, young children. Obama - 2 young daughters. Biden - son in military. Dodd - 2 daughters. Need I go on?

Carrie, NW Iowa (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:49 PM)

Dave from Tn, Senator Webb's son is also going over there. Hey we are now even. So what the hell did this just accomplish?

bobf (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:55 PM)

Dave from Tn, Senator Webb's son is also going over there. Hey we are now even. So what the hell did this just accomplish?

bobf (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 4:55 PM)

I'm not a Republican, but Ron Paul makes me want to change over to one so I can vote for him. The media won't promote Ron Paul because they get their $$ from the same place the rest of the nine GOP contenders get their $$ from and DO NOT have the American people's interest at heart.

Charles, Austin, TX (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 5:02 PM)

Writing as a subject in the UK, I can say that if I was a citizen of the USA, a country I've followed closely since the early sixties, I would vote for Gravel or Paul if my choice was only Rep or Dem. Surely it is not beyond hope that an anti-corporations/ private equity groups party could set up and via the internet, become the party of choice for the great majority of citizens. It would catch on worldwide and then the People, not the corporations note, in 'For the People, By the People' will have the say on 'war', 'global warming', etc. Our media, worldwide, will not be owned by the few and will revert back to the days of say Daniel Ellsberg and Watergate, not perfect then, but so much better, so much.

Mick, UK (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 5:32 PM)

[[Hunter: Anyone else surprised by Hunter's stronger-than-expected performance? He seemed to match McCain on answering the Iraq/Iran questions with authority.]]... AUTHORITY? Hunter thinks "we gotta fight 'em there so we don't have to fight 'em here" That's not authority; that's lunacy.

Houston (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 6:11 PM)

Desmond. When a Republican changes its' mind, it is called, 'Intelligent Redesignation".

Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 8:29 PM)

JTB: "Can't blame Iraq on these guys" ?? Ever listened to Duncan Hunter, John McCain, or Rudy G.? They have fully supported Bush and Co. and continue to do so. They have no solution but the tried and true, "If we don't fight them there, they'll follow us home and we'll be fighting them over here" rubbish. This group of GOP candidates, with the possible exception of Paul, are nothing more than enablers and perpetuators of Bush's War Without End. They all talk about "victory in Iraq" but never, ever explain what that means, what it looks like, how and when it will be achieved, and how much more blood and money it will take to finally end this debachle. "Mistakes have been made" is a cop out because there has been no attempt to correct those mistakes other than to throw more money and U.S. servicemen and women into this ongoing disaster. Which is an even bigger mistake. By supporting Bush, these candidates own it (Iraq), too.

R.Merrell, Vietnam Vet (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 9:10 PM)

I am OFFENDED by the structure of this program. The questions were stupid. Candidates were not given equal opportunity..that means someone at msnbc made a judgement as to who was "worthy" of more time. I should have known when they had that horses behind Matthews be the mc that it would be a sham. Matthews is a rabid, flaming liberal and he does not play it down the middle. He is disrespectful...interupting and talking over the candidates and distracting them while they were attempting to articulate their positions in the INSUFFICIENT time they were allowed. In fact the format..asinine questions...prevented me from knowing where the candidates stood on important issues. Matthews epitomizes everything that is bad about liberal big media.

D. Da Cruz (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 9:20 PM)

I have only been able to watch thr first segement,so far, but I really like Gov. Gilmore. I had no idea a Republican could acknowledge that we have to regain the respect of the world in order to defeat terroorism. I'd vote for him.

Amy B Portland, ME (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 9:44 PM)

Kent State - it was a tragedy. Our own national guard killing our students (unarmed). Hopefully the tape unearthed will bring to justice the ones who killed the students.

Jane, Southern Mississippi (Sent Friday, May 04, 2007 11:26 PM)

I guess alot of folks were not listening last night. Ron Paul said he would pull us out of Irqq, he voted against it in the first place. Ive heard him on other talk radio and he would beef up our southern border where we need troops.I liked the part of getting rid of the IRS. He has actually put bills in congress to do just that. Wake up America you may just get one more chance. Any vote other than for Ron Paul is a vote for world government.

Mark M Lakeview Michigan (Sent Saturday, May 05, 2007 12:10 AM)

GONZO GATE...IT WILL NO GO AWAY! GONZO GATE IT WILL NOT GO AWAY!

JOHNNY JUSTICE ANYWHERE USA (Sent Saturday, May 05, 2007 10:45 AM)

You guys are right. Stupid republicans. I say we ban the GOP. Make America a one party system. The Democrats are right on every issue every time and the radical religious right-wingers are so pathetically wrong about everything. I say we ban heterosexual relationships! Only same-sex partnerships should be recognized as legitimate! No pregnancy should ever be carried full-term unless it was invitro fetilization of a lesbian and the sperm donor should be a homosexual male only. Once the child is born, he/she should be taught from day one that traditional American values are outdated and are nothing more than downright predjudice! Morality is dangerous, man! I say live and let live! What is right and wrong anyway??? It's all relative, one big shade of gray! We should ban religion! I've had enough of this love one another crap! Religion kills, man! Take all the guns away so only the government has firearms! Especially if it's an all democrat government. They know what's best for all of us! Why even hold elections? Somebody will just steal it anyway! Let's name Hillary Clinton Supreme Potentate for life! She will lead us bravely into the future and beyond! She should appoint all members of Congress and all judges. I trust her and the democrat party in every facet of my life! I want to give them my children so they can teach them to behave and think in the proper manner! In only one generation we could turn the world into a real utopia if everyone will just follow the left! Imagine!

Gull I. Bull, Who Cares! No Borders Man! (Sent Saturday, May 05, 2007 12:31 PM)

Ok, ok, In the past six years I have learned to hate republicans. But I still have republican friends. Ha!

j fl (Sent Saturday, May 05, 2007 1:15 PM)

I watched the Republican love fest with Reagan the other night and although I wasn't surprised I wasn't impressed either. Wasn't it Reagan who was president when the Iran-Contra affair came to light. Where we not the first ones to supply Iran with arms. The quote that I think McCain gave that said they looked Reagan in the eyes and released the hostages brought back old memories that I have always thought that the Reagan-Bush (the first one)aranged for the hostages release while they were planning Iran-Contra. Wasn't the first Bush head of the CIA and had all the connections that made Iran-Contra possible. Wasn't Reagon just at the right time and at the right place for most of his actions. Wasn't he the formulater of the trickle down theory that never worked fairly. He may have exuded optimision but remember he was also an actor.

Mike, Albuquerque, NM (Sent Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:33 PM)

Why is MSNBC not talking about Ron Paul? He is the only one with truly original Republican ideals. The people have spoke here at MSNBC, we love Ron Paul.

Jonathan, Providence, Rhode Island (Sent Saturday, May 05, 2007 8:10 PM)

Sierra, Eisenhower got us in Vietnam, with "advisers." JFK was assasinated just before he planned to get us out.

Jane, Southern Mississippi (Sent Sunday, May 06, 2007 2:40 AM)

Apparently there are Republicans among the Al-Qaida in Iraq. Ayman Al-Zawahri, the apparent number two al-Qaida dude in Iraq, released a campaign videotape this weekend in support of the GOP stalwarts, agreeing in total with their "stay the course until everybody dies" strategy for "victory." Maybe this is the "bipartisan support" the President has been seeking. Who would have guessed?

Mark Thieme (Sent Sunday, May 06, 2007 12:56 PM)

bobf:You assertion that the Clinton administration did not use rendition and had no knowlage of torture is unfactual.The programs roots actually begin in this administration with a presidential directive [PDD39] signed by Clinton in 1995 and expanded by his NSA,Richard Clarke[who coined the words ''extraordinary rendition''], that allowed suspected terrorists to be ''rendered''to Islamic states including Jordan and Egypt where it was known by the administration that torture was utilized.One incredible blunder involved the 1998 rendition of a al Qaeda suspect[Ali Mohamed] to Jordan where he was later released, by US Asst.AGs Jamie Gorelick and Chicago-districts Patrick Fitzgerald. Torture was in fact used by the Egyptian MUKABAHRET[its intelligence service]which included electric shock,suspension-by-limbs,and water tortures.At least one suspect was ''disappeared''in 1995 after being captured by US forces in the Balkans and transferred to Egypt after being routed through the CIA for interregation.Also see:The Library of Congress[www.loc.gov]Keyword:''PDD39'' and ''Triple Cross:How bin Ladens Master Spy Penetrated the CIA,the Green Berets and the FBI And Why Patrick Fitzgerald Failed To Stop Him''Lance,Peter. Regan Books,2007,Chptr.I-IV

Lee Holmes (Sent Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:34 PM)

"That's me in the corner, that's me in the spotlight, losing my religion...."--REM

Dorothy (Sent Monday, May 07, 2007 8:43 AM)

Steve Turner," Devil incarnate" -Henry 1V-Shakespeare

Still Crazy After All These Years (Sent Monday, May 07, 2007 5:34 PM)

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