Over 40 Arabic linquists discharged from the Army for being gay. Not for inappropirate sexual behavior, but for their sexual preference. Untold amounts of time and money went into training these people. Does George W. Bush speak fluent Arabic? Does Condi Rice? Does the Secretary of Defense? Does Gen. Peter Pace, (Chariman of the Joint Chief's of Staff)? The policy of integrating the United States Army in 1948 did not destroy the American Military..it made it stronger. Does anyone learn anything from the past in our Nation?

"Boys who like girls who like boys who like boys who like girls who like girls....(or something like that)"--Blur

Excellent argument, Coy. I know I served with some gays in the Navy but my division nor I ever had any problem with them. I know of one Lt. that was transferred due to his preferences. But not discharged, to my knowledge.

There have always been homosexuals in the military, and there always will be. When I was in the Marines, no one really cared about the others' sexual orientation, as long as they were competent and discreet. It only became an issue when the Marine was a complete s**tbird; then it became another reason to hate the guy. The only homosexual that I knew at the time that was drummed out of the Marines was given a General Discharge. He was so useless that the chain of command used this route rather than a Dishonorble because it was faster. Granted, this was years before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," which to my understanding has made it easier to drum homosexuals out of the military. What I find humorous (ironic?) about the Don't Ask policy is that Clinton was lauded by the gay community for it, though it seems its effects is to make it easier to remove homosexuals. And the Rupublicans were all up in arms about it back in '92, but now think it's wonderful. I guess what has the Republicans all up in arms about homosexuality in general, and homosexuals in the military in particular, is that every homosexual (male) in the military is more of a man and more patriotic than all but one of the current contenters for the crown, um, presidency.

You know what really gets to me about this policy? I am retired from the Navy. There were oodles of gay women in the military. I never asked, I didn't care, to each their own is my philosophy. They didn't bother me, I didn't bother them. Most people knew - something about the looks, the attitude (their girlfriends that they were PDAing (is that a word?) with). No one said anything. No one cared. If the did their job, and most did, what the hell difference did it make? Why is it different for the men? I don't get it.

Except for semantics, there is no disagreement among the Democratic candidates. The DA/DT policy was one of Bill Clinton's big mistakes. He either didn't anticipate or didn't care that the military would blatantly violate both the spirit and letter of the policy. Funny that the Republicans like a having a policy that is violated rather than one reflecting their true feelings (kick everone who is different out of the military) that is followed, but they are reknown for embracing hypocracy.

Russel the dont ask don't tell policy was enacted because the policy it replaced was immediate discharge

Jeani - There is a double standard regarding homosexuality as it is applied to women versus men. Without being two graphic, I can break it down like this - most men love to see two women having sex but recoil in horror at the thought of seeing two men have sex. Many women feel the same way. There is apparently something much more natural about lesbians than gay men. It can't be historical, because history is full of tales of both genders engaging in homosexual encounters. It's probably because morality has by and large been a male-dominated creation. The average man was disgusted by men having sex with other men, but was not nearly so repulsed by women having sex with other women; ergo one is more tolerated than the other.

Seems to me like a lot of you are talking about a subject you have none or very little knowledge of. Dont Ask, Dont Tell is a policy that is working. We in the military community know of Gays within the ranks and if it werent for the policy; would immediately start Chapter proceedings. It breaks down discipline and good order. The military is not a democracy so the rules that apply to the general civilian community does not apply within. Everyone know this when they enlist. It does not matter what MOS (Military Occupational Skill) you possess, if you are a hinderance to good order and discipline, you have to go. You have every right to go work anywhere but it will not be in the military. This is what makes the military such a fine, well-oiled machine, is that we dont have time for dissent. Dissent will get your azz killed. All I can say is; If you dont like it, dont sign up because it is NO JOKE!! Go work for the sundance channel.

the problem is too many closet homosexuals in the republican party-many times being terrified and in hiding concerning their own thoughts and feelings about this. Most dem homosexuals are out of the closet and have come to terms with themselves as such. Homosexuals have been in the military and everywhere else for that matter. Dems are 10 times more open minded and accepting and republicans are either being brainwashed by a strict religion, or ignorant or in hiding themselves.

Carrie. Maybe it's the "Symbolic Swordplay'?

I think it is wrong about homosexuality, but as long as they agree to do their job and keep their mouths shut about their sexual oreintation(don't ask, don't tell) I see no problems. But if people have to flaunt it in front of everyone, including their commanders, I can see a problem building. For all their talk about families, I do find it shocking that gays support liberals, even though only one of the seven candidates has come out in favor of it. And he was a strange one to begin with!

Let's throw everyone out of the military and replace them with Republicians. They think they are hurting now. Just see how fast the Rebuplicans leave the country.

The Iraqi army must not have a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. My son is tough as nails and straight as an arrow, but cursed with a baby face, big blue eyes and eyelashes that turn women green with envy. He was flirted with, told he was beautiful and invited for tea by male Iraqi officers. The translator told him, "Wives are for having babies. Beautiful boys are for having fun!"

I hardly think being honest about something as huge as your sexual orientation qualifies as "flaunting it." But hey, I'm all for fairness. If gay men can't be open about their sexuality, straight men shouldn't be allowed to ogle or otherwise make suggestive actions/comments towards and about females, either. And honestly, if we have young men who are wanting to serve their country, particularly at this time, how ridiculous is it to not permit them to do so because they prefer men to women?

I spent 6 years active military service during the VietNam era and I was gay. Its much more taboo now than it was then. in fact my first gay experience was while I was in the military with a service man from another branch of the military and on base. Straight men are just paranoid. For some reason they think gay guys always want them...sheesh...most staright guys aren't that impressive.

the gay issue is irrelevant considering the vast array of other issues facing this country

Carrie, I usually think you make good points but the ones you make here sound like feminist/politically correct BS. Logic, as you well know, has little to do with social mores. They are a combination of tradition, values and socio/biological needs. We have had a long tradition in the western world against homosexuality, it goes against the religious beliefs of many and it doesn't fulfill the social and biological need to reproduce. Having said this, the one thing we humans are allowed to do by having been supplied with a brain, is to think for ourselves. I have nothing against homosexuals. I must admit I would rather watch two women and pass on the two men but one has nothing to do with the other. It's just a personal preference. As far as ogling and being ogled, I have known the pleasure of one and the uncomfortability of the other. As long as no one goes beyond the ogling and acts out agressively against the ogled, what's the problem? If people didn't like being ogled, why do they dress to the nines to attract attention? You can't go to a barbecue and not expect the bees, flies and ants to show up too. As far as gays in the military I belive one reason the military is so afraid of it is because of the natural closeness and comraderie shared by troops in the field could be taken to a different level if a sexual component were added to that. Having been in combat, if I loved another soldier in a sexual way, I would have been as worried about protecting him as I was about protecting myself. That could lead to the both of us getting killed because my concentration would be compromised. It would be the same thing if I were in combat with a woman. Sorry, but I was raised to treat women with respect and to help protect them if the situation warrants it. Do all of the above make me a sexist lecherous excuse for a human being. Maybe so, but I am happy enough with my beliefs.

haha GB! That was great, and so true. It's no different than straight men/straight women - not everyone of the opposite sex is attractive to them, so why should anyone assume that everyone of the same sex is attractive to homosexuals? It's pure ignorance and paranoia, as you said.

Flaunting it? Let's see... "my wife and I were talking about the new casino last night at dinner..." "I have to leave work early to get the kids from school, because my husband has a meeting and can't get there." "My girlfriend and I are going to go see the latest 'Pirates' movie after work tonight..." These are the kinds of things a gay or lesbian person cannot share about their lives in a "Don't ask/Don't Tell" kind of environment. There are all sorts of things we take for granted about our daily lives that would get someone else into a whole lot of trouble for revealing.

Exactly, Colleen. It forces you to basically remain a stranger to everyone you come in contact with because you are never able to share anything remotely meaningful about yourself with anyone.

Robert - I am not concerned with being PC or with representing a feminist viewpoitn. I am, however, concerned with such lofty principles as fairness and equality. You asked what the problem would be as long as no one goes beyond the ogling? I assume that you mean men ogling women. Believe it or not, some women find that incredibly offensive. But the point is that homosexuals are not allowed to even speak of their relationships; why should straight men be given that privilege?

"In the Navy...."--The Village People

I guess Jerry has never heard of the Log Cabin Republicans.

The recent movie '300' depicted 300 Spartans, who were reputedly all Gay, fighting a million Persians at the Thermopylae Pass, till they finally got eliminated. Maybe what the Republicans fear is a movie called '150,000', where that many GI's eventually fight fifty million Persians and end up being, reputedly, all Gay. Just a thought.

As a straight, married some 30 years to a woman, of course, I was summarily dismissed from the Navy by use of a fraudulent homosexual report to cover up a scandal at the U.S. Naval Academy. After many years, I uncovered the secret documents which were sent up the chain of command via back channels. On Appeal, the Bush Justice Dept supported one of the most flagrant coverups in the Navy's history, as well as the right wing judges that he appointed. Unfortunately, the courts supporting corruption in our military justice system is a serious threat to the lives of our men and women in uniform, but it is such an effective tool for covering up illegal activity that nobody wants to abandon the procedure.

Being gay does not make you a sexual deviant. Nor does it make you want every person of the same sex. Much the same way a heterosexual does not want or is not attracted to everyone of the opposite sex. At this point in time, because of Bush's continued innept handling of the civil war in Iraq, we should be thankful for any young man or woman that is willing to put on a uniform regardless of who they prefer to have sex with behind closed doors. If Bush is allowed to keep going the way he is. We will be be out of soldiers. Then everyone will be talking out the other side of their mouths.

Log Cabin Republicans is such a hilarious name.

Ken brings up a very good point. In the Military, you can be straight but if someone says you're gay, that can be all it takes to label you as that. How does one prove otherwise? When I was in, back in the Sixties, a guy was locked up and kicked out because he ticked off a couple of homophobes who used that ploy on him. We all thought they were the gay ones, albeit heavily in denial gay ones. To this day, sexuality is still a weapon to be used against anyone, true or false, in the Military. Tradition, I guess.

Since Rufus corrected me I decided to research the history on Wikipedia and was surprised to find that at the time don't ask don't tell was being considered the main supporter of the ban on gays in the military was a democrat - Sam Nunn, and the main supporter of lifting the ban (along with Barney Frank) was a Republican - retired Sen. Barry Goldwater. Strange bedfellows.

Let's kill two birds with one stone. Borrow a page from the Romans. Citizens, be they straight or gay, no longer have to serve in the military. We enlist immigrants for whom service would be a requirement for citizenship. But, then again, didn't that lead to the sacking of Rome? Its time to get our act together, grow-up and forget about differences that don't mean a damn. Homophobia and zenophobia rank down around junk food in schools in the list of priorities list. Take seriously that we have ruined the environment, that the basis of economy is finite resource, that the Republicans and Democratics are two wings Corporate Party. By the way, a gay Mexican-American medic pulled me out of a burning C-130 at Danang in '69. God bless him always.

Dennis E. Now you've done it. He'll probably never eat maple syrup, again.

"Rock The Boat"-Hues Connection

Well said Robert/Texas.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):