For Gravel, this was like the Beatles playing Shea Stadium. 500 people!

Yep, Gravel is right. Bush is and always has been a liar. Not a very good one. I remember when the idea of invading Iraq was being hustled to the American people. I said to myself: "Those a-holes told the people when Clinton shelled Afghanistan and Sudan that it was the tail wagging the dog. This is the tail wagging the dog". Much later, I watched when Powell brought the issue to the United Nations with Tenet looking on from the background. I was looking for body language, because I was sure Powell must have known about the big lie. Apparently not. He is claiming that Tenet sold him out on that matter. That's another issue. Don't we want the prez to know BS when he/she smells it? Maybe it's different when you are there making decisions on the matter instead of listening to Bush on the TV and hearing your BS detector going "OH, SHUT UP!" And maybe it isn't. I think Gravel brought up a very important matter. I hope others will think so. Still, I can't say if it's obligatory for a prez to be able to smell BS when it's passed in front of his nose. Maybe that's a gift that has nothing to do with governing a nation. And it was Bush passing around the BS.

"If you knew then what you know now would you still vote for the Iraq war?" Wasn't it Tim Russert who first started asking everyone that stupid question? He may have gleaned it from the NYT. Sounds like them. Seems to me just about everyone who voted for the war was asked that question on MTP. When a democrat answered no all the minions would dance in the streets. I always just rolled my eyes that anyone would do anything other than laugh in his face. It is funny that some democrats are trying to hang that one on Hillary alone.

JIrby, shortly after Powell made that speech I read a column that said he refused to tell the big lie unless Tenet was sitting behind him the column ended saying "George didn't look too happy"

It was always pretty clear that Bush was lying about Iraq. The al-Queda Saddam connection was clearly phony. The anthrax hoax, the yellowcake. It was obvious that Bush was looking for an excuse. A majority of Senate Democrats voted against the war. It was politically expedient for Clinton, Biden, Dodd and Edwards to vote for war. They all had their eyes on the Presidency. They all wanted to look "strong". No excuses for those votes. Those votes disqualified them all from the nomination. At least Edwards apologized. Hillary (like curious George) refuses to admit her mistakes. Hillary even voted against the Levin amendment that required Bush to exhaust all diplomatic options before invading. Why ?? Anybody But Clinton

I guess Sierra we should have left the Iraqi's alone and Saddam to continue to kill and rape and plunder like he did. It's almost as if Liberals loved Saddam more then they hate Bush. Why should any of the four apologize? they went with what was available to them, except Hillary nver read her reports. Ithink between the United Nations and United states we exhausted every means of diplomacy available to us at the time. What was next Sierra, Tea and Crumb cake? All the begging and all the dealmaking and all the talk didn't add up to a hill of beans. You libs could have talked to Saddam for 20 years and nothing would have been done except for him to order new wood chippers for his prisoners. You guys talk so much about torture, yet you allowed Saddam to torture and cripple as many people as he could. Now we are really in a war we have our hands pretty much tied behind our backs by our goverment. We probably could have finished this in two years if we fought Patton style. But nooooooo, you liberals were so bent about scratching a tile on a mosque or a picture of a naked iraqi wearing his underware. This begs the question, what is better for an Iraqi, being fed into a wood chipper feet first and wearing underware on your head? I'm sure the 2nd part would win hands down.

Rufus, I remember. He didn't, but I thought it could have been his cherrios acting up on him. I would like to find that column. It's interesting to know who knew from the start. Sierra, that leaves us with Obama and Gore. Or should I say that leaves us with Gore?

Jerry, I think it's funny when you act like you care about the Iraqi people. You have such a big heart.

jerry, I guess your concept of "Patton style" warfare refers to the first three weeks, and now involves lots of "mowing them down" and killing "every one of them". Historically speaking, however, Patton's troops in WWII, in North Africa, Sicily, France, Germany and Czechoslovakia all fought against uniformed infantry and panzer divisions. You know, real armies, not native insurgents or terrorists who travelled from their home countries just to fight him where he was. Sure, "Patton style" sounds really armchair warrior macho, but it's inapplicable to the situation in Iraq ever since April, 2003.

Jerry that woul be under WEAR..now put yours on you look disgusting.

Hee Hee Hee. Good one Jerry. You're funny. You should take that show on the road. You and Dave, TN could perform at the Downtown Baghdad Funny Bone!

Thank you Ken, Seattle. Just what I was going to say. Didn't he want to wipe out all Iraqi people just yesterday? What a difference a day makes.

Pssst Jerry - McCain never read the report either. Most of them didn't. Why the need to point Hillary out?

Before we invaded Iraq, roughly 60-70% of the American people were for the invasion.Roughly 60-70% of Congress voted for the invasion.Some of those in congress who voted against the war lost their seats. Now we have what, roughly the opposite statistics aout the war/ If that is true it is time for Congress to follow suit or they may lose seats.But then, starting a war is always easier than ending it especially when you have a President who has no intention of changind his mind, his plan or his options.

jerry: Iraq didn't attack us. It didn't threaten us by any stretch of the imagination. So, what was the reason for war ? There was none under international law. It was an unjust war. The UN inspectors determined that IRAQ HAD NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION. Remember Hans Blix ? No WMDs. Bush demanded the UN inspectors be pulled out. As for his torture, it was the Reagan Administration who defended him at the UN. Remember Un Ambassador Jeanne Kirkpatrick ? She and Reagan liked "authoritarian figures" who were anti-communist. And you must admit Saddam was anti-communist. They defended him at the UN. They allowed Saddam to torture, not me. Bush's war was just a grab for oil and imperial control of the middle East. Actually, Ron Paul is the most honest of the candidates about this. jerry: you should read George Orwell's 1984 (and then think about the parrallels).... JIrby: I CAN'T STAND Gore !!! He lead us into NAFTA, the WTO, the First Gulf War and Media Monopoly. And he had the insight and wisdom to select Joe Liebermann as his running mate. I'll take Obama.

Being a bleeding heart liberal it is hard to give up on anybody but Jerry really is hopeless. I thought that he was useful in showing how bad the Bush-o-philes are but really he is such an extreme caricature that I am surprised I don't see conservatives here repudiating him just to salvage their reputation. I have refrained from responding to him in the past but wondered if he might respond to facts and reason. I wonder no more.

Since you want to go back 20 years or so, Sierra, let's bring you up to speed today. The united Nations sent all those resolutions, I think 19 or more in all, that demanded Saddam come clean with his WMD program. Bill Clinton sat back and let the United Nations handle Saddam. Saddam got rich in the oil for medicine(actually money)program that also included the General Secretary of the united nations and his family! Why hasn't anybody done anything about that! As people escaped Iraq, they told stories of the rape rooms and the torture going on, but did the liberals lift a finger to stop them? NOOOOOO! What was the reason for war you ask? Very simple! The United Nations gave Iraq every chance int he book to come clean and they didn't. So many resolutions that Saddam used for toilet tissue paper, did you think he was ever going to come clean? Of course not! And when George Bush finally showed up, he was tired of the gum flapping and he told Saddam plain and simple, either get out of there or we attack. Remember, the democrats went along with this, based on the information given to them. Even some democrats went over there to reason with Saddam and he just smiled and called in his TV cameras. Meanwhile his people suffered and his wallet got fatter. Did you support Saddam Sierra? Did you say to yourself "ah the heck with the Iraqi people, Saddam is the man". I doubt it. But getting rid of a guy who was almost as bad as hitler made sense. And I stand by my patton statement. Scott, it doesn't matter whether you have a uniform or not, if you are in the military and you are fired upon, you fire back and if it takes levelling a mosque back to the stone age, let it be. Do I care about the Iraqi people? probably not. But when I see people in here trying to defend Saddam Hussain like he was the saviour of the Iraqi people, then I have to say something. And finally Sierra, a grab for oil???? Seen the prices in San Franscisco lately. If there was a grab for oil, I'll bet it would bring the price down big time, don't you think?

Why does the media keep feeding us Obama and Hilary as if they have the better plan??? The truth of the matter is the senator Joe Biden is the best candidate, he has more experience and is best qualified with foreign relations. Nither obama or hilary can defeat the republicans and as result will end up with the same administration for an other 4 years. America we have to take a stand and press what is better for America. Let us not fall into the media's trap lets get the word out at least consider the other canidates.

Sierra, I don't know if this country is ready for Obama. That's giving lots of credit to a lot of people who voted for Bush last time. Just because many of them deserted him doesn't make them Obama voters. The rich guys would accept Gore better for what you just mentioned. You may want to keep up with what kind of odds Jimmy the Greek has up for Obama.

Obama has to get by the racist of all colors in his own party first.

New poster: jerry's mug on one that reads " Poster child for dumb ass". jerry must be that senior moment thing going but in reference grabbing for oil how about those companies that have recorded record profits lately?

Jerry is what is known as a Republican intellectual.

Its not about race or all that mubojumbo its about the issues and responsibility.Dont get sucked into the race issue thats why Obama has all this attention I am Marine veteran who served in iraq that country will not be stabilized with the strong central government that all the candidates want to install such a gov. This Iraq not the U.S these people don't think like you and me. Now if we leave they will be so much caos that well be back there in a year or so and will be much worse. Just listen to senator Joe Biden plan and decide for your self. I know that this a capitalist country but let us not fall to the media's focus just because the canidates have the most campaign money...

Its not the race that matters but the issues and their plans. Both Hilary and Obama are not strait on their issues. They keep pushing the race thing to move obama's popularity up when in reality he's not the best canidate we must fight this and not fall into the medias trap.

Stating the Obvious(?), Part 6,392: Biden's plan has (in his own words) three parts -- A.) "A roadmap to bring most of our troops home by next year ... " Since Joe cannot be President "by next year", any implementation of his scheme would have to be initiated by W & Co. (which wouldn't surprise me; see below). As we have seen, conditions in Iraq deteriorate swiftly; by the time Joe got his hands on the Oval Office the conditions he claims make his plan a winner will no longer be operable. All plans by Dem and Pug candidates alike assume the status quo there will conveniently continue until they assume office. It will not. B.) " ... a detailed plan for what we leave behind ... " meaning, presumably, some variety of the "weak federal system" he's been touting. It seems not to trouble him that the Iraqis don't particularly care to be told how to govern themselves, or that they are killing our troops in large part precisely because we have come into their country and are seeking to tell them how to run it -- and how to run it in our own best interests. Ah, but The White Man's Burden is heavy; is it not, Joe? C.) " ... and a commitment that, so long as a single American soldier remains in Iraq, we will do everything in our power to protect him or her." This is the actual operative clause, since only the US Commander-in-Chief decides what is necessary to protect our troops, and how much power to apply to the problem. Easy to see how Biden's plan -- or one just like it -- could be adopted by the Bushistas as righteous cover for further escalation when things don't go according to plan and the Iraqis continue to try to frustrate our well-meaning restructuring of their nation by dragging their legislative heels and introducing our guys to the singular joys of the IED; terrorism, after all, must be met with the strongest possible medicine wherever it rears its ugly head -- particularly in the main front in the WOT. More misdirection; like today's immigration votes (fierce "debate" over complicated legislative amnesty preceded by a quick granting of de facto amnesty by simply voting to stop enforcing existing laws), look for the operative clauses when anyone at all in "Your Congress" says anything whatsoever.

Jerry; I think you said it all when you say "I probably don't care about Iraqi Poeple" That tells us about the level of ignorance and hypocrisy. On the one hand you are telling us how the wonderfull and so concerned humaniterian GWB and neo-cons SAAAAVED Iraqis from Saddam and all the bad things he did. On the other you couldn't care less about them!!!?? And now that we have saved them, we need to bomb them into a beautiful democracy. WOW, that is amazing. God Bless our country we need a lot more help. With people like you we don't need enemies.

Jerry - Since when did saving the Iraqi people from torture become the justification for the war? Initially, it was WMD and eliminating an imminent threat to the US. Now you're trying to justify the invasion based on Saddam's treatment of his own people. You've obviously confused antipathy toward Bush's war with support for Saddam. I can easily recognize that Saddam was evil and treated his people horrendously, but I don't feel as if that justifies our country's actions. If it did, there would be several more countries with similar situations that we would need to attack. I find it somewhat ironic that you're speaking with such great concern about the Iraqi people out of one side of your mouth, while at the same time essentially yelling 'kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!'.

I am an Marine vetaran who served in the Abar province your right they don't really care about government but they do care about their religion. Their world revolves around it. Now the main catalyst for their fighting is not just us but influence of the different regions involved in the central gov that bush is try to build. Iraq is not America it could never be America at least not in the next 30 years and the sooner we realize that the better. We need to impose a separation of these to 3 regions but yet still have a weaken central gov controlling basic national needs as senator Biden promotes.

The troops are there in harms way not knowing if they will come back from a mission trust me i know...witting a letter as it was their last. As your reading this post they are serving this country who is not using them wisely. We owe it to them and the many that gave the ultimate price to make the right choice. regardless of why we are there; we are there now. We cannot just pull out leaving that country in chaos cuz ill guarantee well be there again in a year to face an even worse country. Joe Biden is the best choice and has the best plan do the research he has the most experience in foreign relation. Forget the media and crap they feed us do the research yourself and pass the right word....God Bless America Semper Fi,

Michael, but the Iraqis do not approve of Biden's plan, however sensible it is. It is their country. So now what do we do?

so, jerry re: 2:07 post: do you think the oil in Iraq had anything to do with letting the UN take the forefront before 2003? and I guess the UN not finding WMDs also meant we should invade? Remember, Papa Bush did virtually nothing about Tiananmen Square; yet you chastise Clinton for not going after saddam butchering his people? Hmmm...you NEVER have been able to even begin to see another side of any issue besides your own. but, I keep hoping some day you will.

Desmond: The Iraqi CONSTITUION calls for a federal system. They are actually centralizing power in a way that goes against the constituition they wrote (thus this administration's flawed picture of democracy). Also, they are essentially federalizing themselves right now, but only with disorganized warfare (that our soldiers are getting in the way of) in resistence to the Iraqi security foces and ours, and not by practical organization. Biden had the foresight to see how this was going a long time ago. He's by far the best presidential candidate. Keep in mind, the birth of a United States came only after the individual states were able to grow on their own before they united with an economic common purpose. JOE BIDEN 08!

Desmond, in repsonse to your 5:00pm post, yes I am sure that certain elements of Iraqi society do not approve of Biden's plan -- most notably those in the Sunni and Shia militias. I would think others have the good sense to know that compromise and a political solution are needed in order to avoid a full blown civil war. If you are proposing we do nothing and go home, I hope you are prepared for the carnage to follow. I don't buy the argument put forth by most Republicans, that if we withdraw, then al-queda will follow us here. Defeat in Iraq is not a prerequsite to al-queda attacking us on our home soil. I do believe, however, that if we withdraw now there will be a major escalation in the sectarian violence in Iraq with the danger that it could spread to neighboring countries. There will be genocide and a major refugee crisis potentially on the scale of what happened in Ruanda and is happening in the Sudan. There will be an increased chance that the instablity in Iraq will spread throughout the region as Iran (in support of the Shia) and Turkey (to contain the Kurds) get involved in the conflict and possibly even Saudi Arabia (in defense of the Sunnis). The United States through the inept and incompetent Bush adminstration unleashed this series of events. Everyone said before the war even started that it would be easy to defeat the Iraqi army, the problem would be with the occupation and trying to win the peace. The Bush administration, through a series of blunders, has failed to win the peace. The democrats now want to run from the very mess we created; that's fine. Just don't blame Bush and company when the real carnage comes after we leave. We will all share in that human tragedy. What I find most disturbing is that we won't even make an attempt to craft a political solution (much like we did in Bosnia) in order to avoid the inevitable genocide.

They may not love the plan but ive seen it work. When i was in Haditha, Iraq we were working in conjunction with some Iraqi soldiers that were from a unit in Iraq know as the freedom fighters mostly cuz figh against sadam. Now they were shites and as you know anbar is Sunni they could smell each other and violence increased. We had to request to work with sunni troops and have them kinda take a bit of control in the area. The Iraq's are not evil people they are just extremely religious people with pride and their obscure view of honor. Were in the mist of a civil war. Joe Biden's plan for a federal system may not be the perfect but ive seen it work.. What are the others solutions all they want is to end a war that we've started. They give no plan just want we want to hear, "end the war." Let us not forget to fund our troops who are still there regardless of the politics. I may be wrong but all i ask is to consider Senator Biden..

They may not love the plan but ive seen it work. When i was in Haditha, Iraq we were working in conjunction with some Iraqi soldiers that were from a unit in Iraq know as the freedom fighters mostly cuz figh against sadam. Now they were shites and as you know anbar is Sunni they could smell each other and violence increased. We had to request to work with sunni troops and have them kinda take a bit of control in the area. The Iraq's are not evil people they are just extremely religious people with pride and their obscure view of honor. Were in the mist of a civil war. Joe Biden's plan for a federal system may not be the perfect but ive seen it work.. What are the others solutions all they want is to end a war that we've started. They give no plan just want we want to hear, "end the war." Let us not forget to fund our troops who are still there regardless of the politics. I may be wrong but all i ask is to consider Senator Biden..

Kato I agree. Iraq is not our burden because we are the policemen of the world. It's our burden because we were foolish enough to go in there in the first place and stir up this hornet's nest. The consequences of us withdrawing now is mass genocide.

Why is it that what used to be called "contingency planning" -- the sensible insistence that any plan to do anything at all should be forced to consider the probabilities it faces and provide reasonable answers to questions raised by them -- is now tantamount to encouraging genocide? If you can't or won't answer sensible questions based on realities staring you in the face, your plan is doomed. That's how Real Life works. Ignoring the issue that, realistically, Biden's proposal will have to be imposed on the Iraqis at gunpoint and for many, many years, and that, if they persist in resisting attempts at true self-determination, it is we ourselves who will end up pursuing a genocidal program, is, well ... I cannot do justice to the thought in language sufficiently moderate to post on this board. Iraq is not Bosnia, and will not respond to theories of government based on the Western mind-set to which Bosnians are heir. Ergo, we will have to impose, prop-up, and bleed for that "weak central system" until we have reduced the general population to corpses or jelly-spined lackeys; precisely the argument made by proponents of the White Man's Burden school of thought; and if it walks like a duck, etc. Taking over the country for the foreseeable future will not help our international standing, our "war on terror", or our prospects for renewing a decent relationship with the rest of the world -- it will harm them. It will be seen by our friends and enemies for exactly what it is: a naked act of aggression hiding behind the familiar American platitudes about "caring for the Iraqis". Now, answer the questions put to you or shut up.

Biden's plan for a federation of ethnic states within a larger Iraq is going to be co-opted by Republicans in the Senate. We heard that at the GOP debate. Biden might get some acknowledgement for coming up with it first, but in effect its going to be the bi-partisan approach which doesn't translate into much benefit for Joe's campaign. At least that's how I think it will play out. Politics ain't a fair business.

Well, the United States has set mandates for the Iraq government. Pretty basic ones. As of yet, the Iraq government has yet to implement any of them. So how do you force them to follow their own Constitution?And I do not consider them evil people. since I was opposed to the war in the first place, I would put the evil label on ourselves.

Jerry, if my kid had fired back every time he was fired upon there would be a couple thousand more dead Iraqi civilians. I don't think that would have helped the Iraqi people or the U.S....nor would I want my son to be haunted by memories of little kids looking at him in horror before being mowed down.

Can You Help Us Promote A Ron Paul/Giuliani Debate? Ron Paul Accepts FreedomFest Foreign Policy Debate Invitation But Where’s Giuliani? http://www.gambling911.com/Ron-Paul-Giuliani-060307.html Carrie Stroup with Gambling911 has requested the folks at Sportsbook.com - presently offering political betting odds on the 2008 US Presidential election - to offer odds on Giuliani attending and debating Ron Paul at FreedomFest. www.freedomfest.com/debate.htm Paul/Giuliani debate invitation Here at Freedomfest, we have sent numerous invitation requests to Giuliani Campaign but no response. Please be respectful but contact Giuliani Campaign and urge them to accept the debate invitation and forward this message to all of your friends. webteam@joinrudy2008.com Thanks, Freedomfest PS You can join 70 plus speakers, 1,000 freedom lovers and Ron Paul at FreedomFest but please consider forwarding this e-mail message, post on your blog or website, create a You Tube video, etc. and urge your friends to contact the Giuliani Campaign. Ron Paul is confirmed and ready to debate. Our only question is “Where’s Rudy Giuliani?” If you like, feel free to copy me with your message to the Giuliani Campaign as we plan to post your Giuliani debate e-mails and videos on our website. ron@freedomfest.com

Bush was involved with 9/11 in some way- period.....The evidence is overwhelming. That is THE ISSUE that must be uncovered!! We had better wake up before he pulls off another fake terror attack! If he does, you can kiss your freedoms goodbye forever.....Google videos: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition

At least Joe Biden has a plan. It may or may not work, and he is aware of that. There is not one other Presidential candidate that can offer anything close to what Biden has to offer for not only Iraq, but for the entire Mideast region. I do not want a Rock Star for a President. I want someone that understand foreign policy like the back of his hand. Joe Biden also was the one that got our troops MRAPs. It is time for Americans to start paying more attention to Joe Biden.

The media pushes Mike Gravel off like he is a nobody. The truth is he in 1971, by himself, waged a 5 month filibuster ending the draft. Then he stood up on the floor of the senate to read the Pentagon Papers, "the secret official study that revealed the lies and manipulations of successive U.S. administrations that misled the country into the Vietnam War." Now when was the last time a Senator waged a filibuster ending this war? or stood up and read papers on manipulated intellegence into the Senate record? Gravel has a lot of courage and will stand up and defend what he knows is right. I'm voting Gravel!

Love him or hate him when it comes to Iraq future generations will look back and celebrate George Bush as a courageous visionary. Victory in Iraq is a liberal cause that will change the world!

We have 591 days left of the Bush administration.Senator Biden proposed this plan I believe in the summer of 2004. At around the same time, Senator McCain siad the level of violence was rising and that we had a short time to quell it and that we needed additional forces at that time. The Bush administration ignored the advice of both these Senators and every other piece of advice they have received since then. I thought at the time that Senator Biden's plan was possibly an achieveable one. However, we cannot impose this on the Iraqis, it has to be something they want. Now, over 4 years later, we see that the situation on the ground there has become more violent with more sectarian strife. Hence the need for the "surge"of our troops.Furthermore, our President has said he is adopting the Korean plan for Iraq and the the next President will have to deal with Iraq also. So, given all these things, I think that any plan we offer now is useless unless it has the backing of President Bush.I would be estatic if any plan were working. It would mean we could bring our troops home immediately.This administration must take responsibility for the present situation and anyting else that occurs as a result of their plans in the next 1 1/2 years.

Michael,Alamo Tx. Would you consider writing what you have said here to the editorial pages of your local area newspapers or to the Biden Campaign to see how you could help elect Senator Biden President.

jerry, you are so funny. The oil grab was not designed to minimize gasoline prices for the US consumer. It was designed to maximize profits for US oil companies. They, not consumers are part of Bush's core constituency.

Clikdawg you obviously don't practice what you preach. Do the "contingency planning" for your own plan, if you can even call withdrawal a plan. It is tantamount to genocide. You refuse to acknowledge that. That's how I see it playing out. You may disagree, but don't tell people to shut up. We are here to exchange opinions and to have spirited debate. Your little tantrums remind me of Bush. You know, the my way or the highway approach.

The reality is that no one knows what the situation in Iraq will be in 1 1/2 years.Period.

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