How much is it going to cost to secure the border? I know the counter... how much does it cost to provide services for everyone who gets in? Well, actually, I'd like to know the answer to both. Because to secure the border its going to take a Berlin-type wall, with manned positions, for more than a thousand miles. Anything less and we'll still be providing services for all those who simply go through the holes in our "secured" border. What's that going to cost to build, and cost to maintain? Eh, but to a Republican what's a couple more trillion added to the debt?

"GONZO GATE" IT JUST WILL NOT GO AWAY !

US politicians are currently falling into the same trap that their European colleagues walked into, a generation ago.  The results of those misguided attempts at gaining votes, are a catastrophic state of public affairs in England, France, Germany and Italy.  Many Europeans, like me, tired of paying confiscatory taxes to support millions of poor immigrants, whose flow is unstoppable, and dismayed at seeing the disintegration of the social, cultural and civic structures of their countries, just leave, abandoning the field to the immigrants.  Those who have come here to the US, watch with disbelief as your Politicians give away your future in the hope of gaining new votes from the immigrant communities.  Actually they are just laying the foundation for future social unrest, chaos and poverty.  You are still in a relatively better position than Europe.  Start enforcing the immigration laws now, while you still can.  

Commenting on the immigration bill, Rudy says:
They sit in these little back rooms, they come up with these compromises, it all makes sense to them, and then when you look at it, you actually step away from it and say, “Gee, it would be better

RUDY KNOWS WHAT IT TAKES TO PROTECT THIS COUNTRY. THAT IS MY MAIN REASON FOR WANTING TO SUPPORT A MAN WHO IS FAMILIAR WITH THE PROBLEMS CONFRONTING THIS COUNTRY TODAY. BUT, I MUST SAY THANK GOD BUSH HAS BEEN VIGILANT IN PROVIDING SAFETY FOR AMERICA.

Great just when you thought no one could be worse than Bush.

yeah rudy was all for illegals in new york saying their hard working and exactly the kind of people new york needs too... notice ne never said americans. Because Bush has betrayed us, I cannot even entertain giving this guy a shot at the presidency. not a chance we can take.

Rudy's common sense leadership will take the American public time to digest.  After years of a lack of leadership from both sides of them aisle, it is refreshing to know that a real leader could actually become president.  The dinosaurs that have owned Congress for the last 20 years need to follow their predecessors and become extinct.

The reform can be done in a much, much simpler manner.  First secure the borders, crack down on the employers, and issue ID cards.  Then discuss paths to citizenship.

I only have one question: What senator or congressman who claims to have the best interests of the United States could ever vote for an immigration bill that the Congressional Budget Office say will only stop 75% of illegal immigration, and allows those who have committed felonies against the U.S. to stay? The answer should be: only a senator or congressman who has politics in mind, and could care less about the country or its security. What is wrong with these peole and the president? There is no justification for a bill that does nothing but hurt the United States citizens. Giuliani said he can fix it with no new laws, and I believe him!!

We should be asking Bush and Chernoff WHY the border is not ALREADY secured! That is THEIR job. They say that the money to build the fence, etc. was "
authorized" to be spent, however, that only means they said ok - they did NOT GIVE the money for the border security.  I can tell my son I authorize him to buy a new Jaguar.  Then he will say, "OK, give me the money."  I did not say I would PAY for the car, I only gave my ok for him to buy it - but HE must come up with the money, not me.  Same is true with the border security bill.  So - when your senators and congressmen say they approved the border spending- tell them to SHOW US THE MONEY and show us the RESULTS. If you oppose amnesty for illegal aliens and you want our borders really SECURED go to website www.numbersusa.com for info on how to contact your reps and send faxes free.  They will also keep you updated on those "backdoor" deals going on up there that they try to keep hidden from American CITIZENS because they know we will not stand for it when we know what they are planning.  People, call, call, call your reps - send emails, faxes, visit their offices, go to anti amnesty rallies in your area - if you want to keep our America for our grandchildren and future generations speaking English with American culture - then NOW is the only hope we have.  Our senators are right now selling us down the Rio Grande and allowing the final step Bush is pushing for - borderless bounderies between us and our neighbors.  Bush ALREADY supports and DC is trying to slip past us a measure to allow all trucks coming out of Mexico to be allowed into US with NO, that's right with NO, inspections.  Mexican drivers and trucks on OUR highways at Mexican safety and driving standards - not America's.  Just imagine how many bodies can be packed into an 18 wheeler or how many pounds of hard drugs - and just driven into good ole USA free as the wind.  Truckers, and Americans - we had better let them know this is ANOTHER sellout and threat to our national security and our safety on our highways that WE are not going to roll over and play dead and let them do to us.  We can no longer go our merry way and spend our time at the mall or at the movies and ignore what Washington has done and IS doing to us now and even worse, to the future of America.  If you want your grandchildren and theirs to live in a Spanish speaking, Hispanic cultured, third world nation like Mexico, then do nothing.  If you want them to live in the America we have known and loved and our brave have bled and died for and continue to do -- then the very least we can do is make a phone call, send an email, a fax - get INFORMED about what they are trying to do to us.  It is NOW or never people.  Again www.numbersusa.com will give you your state's reps and phone numbers, etc. so YOU can be heard. HELP AMERICA - do NOT let Washington sell us out - this is OUR national emergency right now. Do not believe the media lies that the majority of American CITIZENS want this amnesty - when the questions are presented the right way - THOSE polls indicate at LEAST 70% of Americans do NOT want amnesty. CAll, Call, Call, write, write, write -

Giuliani is really for the immigration bill and is pro-choice.  He just doesn't want to admit it since he would lose half of his republican support.  I like Giuliani but I wish he would cross the isle and stand up for what he really believes instead of what he thinks will win him the election.  Hillary will have my vote because she says and does what is on her mind and there is no mistake or side-stepping around it.

McCain is doing in the Republican primary what al gore did in the general election in 2000: clearly the better,  more experienced candidate, but calculating everything he does, and looking like a tool (which he is now) the whole time. But better McCain than Romney, who can't make up his mind on a single issue, or Guiliani who hasnt ever really done anything to deserve consideration for the presidency.

Here's a better quote:

"Gee, it would be better if they didn't do anything!"

Rock on Rudy!  You've got a keen eye.  Say "Hi" to your son for me.

So, how are they going to entice the criminals, terrorist, etc. to come in to register so we can perform a background check on them and then deport them?

I fail to understand why a terrorist, who has overstayed his visa and has the intention of flying a plan into a building, would ever want to register to become a legal resident.

So tell me again, how does making 12 million illegal immigrates legal help us being more safe and secure?

By tamper-proof, does Rudy mean a Computer Chip implanted about the Buttocks?  See, I don't speak Neu Yorque Republique.  I'm a farnboy.

Please, Just Say NO to the New Immigration Bill.

• Illegal immigrants will go back home VOLUNTARILY as they came! We do not need to DEPORT 12+ million people.

• To accomplish this, just say NO to the New Immigration Bill and instead: ENFORCE our current laws, REMOVE the MAGNET of easy jobs and benefits for illegal immigrants, and above all, STOP sending the wrong MESSAGE that illegal immigrants can eventually obtain visas and work permits in this country.

• Once illegal immigrants find out that they are NOT welcome and that they have NO future in America, then they will start going back home--VOLUNTARILY!

• Once the entire world knows that we don't deal with illegal immigrants but with those who want to play by the rules and respect our laws, then we will have an orderly supply of labor, if that is what you think we need.

• If you do not do it this way (just by enforcing or improving current laws)then you will PERPETUATE the cycle of more ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION-"COMPASIONATE" RESPONSE (or AMNESTY with "penalties" involved)-more ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

• You can bet on the arrival of MILLIONS of more illegal immigrants with this new bill--regardless of how much money you put in border security. Be assured that the first individuals to follow will be those who the bill tries to EXCLUDE now: The relatives of old or newly legalized residents who, according to the bill, will not be able to be petitioned anymore! You know why? It is like the Marines who do not leave a fallen comrade behind. A legal or illegal resident who makes it to this country NEVER forgets the loved ones left behind and they will NEVER stop to find a way to bring those RELATIVES who could not come along!  The strength of a single FAMILY bond is stronger than a whole ARMY deployed on the border!

Why don’t you get it? The Immigration Bill will not work because:
1. The Bill rewards millions of lawbreakers with work permits and visas; and it gives people who broke our laws, who crossed the border illegally, who circumvented the system, who cheated and overstayed their visas, with the opportunity to become legal residents and receive benefits. This is just NOT FAIR!

2. Do you care about our poor, disadvantaged, American Citizens? Just think of the impact of the immigration bill on our fiscal resources, and social programs created to help them. The pressure on our health, housing, child care, educational, employments, and other programs and benefits, will increase exponentially, once the newly legalized immigrants are settled and start to DEMAND these services. This is insane!

3. Most foreigners are not used to pay income taxes. They will continue to cheat their way up, including the IRS, claiming phony dependents and taking improper credits! They will prefer to continue working for CASH to EVADE taxes! Their tax contribution is NEGATIVE! Also, check the records in BANKRUPTCY courts; once out of the shadows, they will obtain all kind of debts and then declare themselves in BANKRUPTCY, to avoid liabilities! In general, you will see our standards of living severely impacted!

4. The bill does not resolve the problem of future illegal immigration-regardless of how many billions of dollars we spend on “border security.” You see, at any time, around the world, there are millions of people, of all conditions, who are actively engaged in seeking and finding ways to defeat any barriers we might put, in order to come and work here in the USA, by any means, cheating and pushing all the way! They are just encouraged by our own government and they look at the “example” of acquaintances, friends and relatives who “made it” to the USA and are now about to become “legalized.”

5. Illegal immigrants become determined and emboldened because the MESSAGE we send around the world is this: “Workers and cynical people of the world, you may come illegally to the USA and break ours laws, for it does NOT matter to us how you make it here, since we are a “compassionate” country. Once enough number of you get here, settle down, and keep in the shadows working and making your “American” babies, then nobody will be able to deport you!”

6. As long as this is the kind of MESSAGE we send and keep the MAGNETS in place, illegal immigrants will defeat any “security” barriers we build. It will become more costly, more difficult, more violent, but not impossible. People will start digging longer tunnels; secretly discovering new paths to jump over the fence; swimming around the border; bribing anybody; obtaining any kind of phony documents to come “legally” by plane; setting up phony marriages; or just making “American” “anchor babies.”  Illegal immigration business and birthrates, will continue to boom and will NOT STOP because ordinary people overseas know that the US Government encourages those who can not come here legally. They know that our government gives them EXPECTATIONS that, as a “compassionate” country, and the “difficulty” to find and deport” all of those who broke the law, we the USA, will eventually grant them legal status!

7. Do you think that one reason we need this bill is because it is impossible to find and deport the millions of illegal immigrants already in this country? YOU ARE WRONG! Illegal immigrants came here VOLUNTARILY and most of them will go back to their home countries VOLUNTARILY, only if we ENFORCE our current laws and send out the proper MESSAGE that:
• The USA will NOT allow law breakers to become legalized and will take ACTION to enforce our laws!
• The USA will not allow illegal immigrants, in any way, shape, or form the use of social benefits, health and welfare programs, school enrollments, child care, and job opportunities that were designed to help our own poor citizens.
• The USA will NOT support or facilitate the presence of illegal immigrants, to settle down in this country, regardless of how many “American” babies they have!
• Finally, we should work with developing agencies, to help poor countries to combat corruption and discrimination; to create job opportunities; and to encourage fair income distribution and economic development polices! Let’s ENCOURAGE policies in other countries that give hope and opportunities to their own people! Illegal immigration and AMNESTY covers up a failed global economic system and failed foreign policies! War, hunger, oppression, discrimination, inequality, and corruption, in poor countries will also perpetuate illegal immigration. Taking advantage here and encouraging the young and poor to FLEE their countries is INMORAL! Who will build up the countries they flee from?

Sometimes gridlock is a good thing.  Giving amnesty to illegals is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.  So it is better that they accomplish nothing than amnesty.

Is anybody else besides me saying and thinking what is obvious:  Those employers who are benefiting from illegal immigrantion could easily employ existing US citizens in those jobs if they would raise the wages.  But of course this would decrease their profits!  The argument then would be the increased costs of their products to the consumer?  Seems like the people of the US want it both ways, cheap fruit and veggies and no illegal immigrants.  Take your choice America!

Off topic: jerry/corpus christi texas / If you are "out there", read this: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19226700/

This relates to the discussion we had some time back on another thread.

After reading it, you tell me if you still believe our rights are not being violated and are not on the way to being destroyed. Even given the chaos of a war zone, I maintain that this administrations' attitude toward our rights have severely degraded the way our citizens are treated.

During the depression, the government created a number of work projects to provide employment to those in need in the United States.  Yes it later became welfare, but in the beginning if you wanted to be paid, you had to work.  It's about time we go back to that system.  No more free rides to those who are not employed and no, I am not including those who are unable to work, just those sitting around on their backsides collecting a free check.  All of those employers who have jobs that normally employ immigrant labor could register and have people come to work in order to gain their weekly checks.  REquire them to work a minimum of 20 hours a week, allowing them plenty of time to go on job interview, go to school or find better suited employment.  In return, the employers would be required to pay into a govenment pool for the right to have access to these workers to help defray most of the current costs of welfare payments away from the taxpayers.  However, what will be needed is a system of checks and balances that will prevent these very same employers from creating a system of reclassification of existing jobs to those that would be covered under the new system so that it is not abused and lower all jobs that are not currently using immigrant labor. This would also give local governments the chance to get work completed that they do not have enough funds or earmarked money to be completed due to excessive bids and estimated costs listed by fat cat corporations. This would decrease the overall need for immigrant labor, provide employment for the unemployed and decrease the use of tax dollars for welfare.  It will also provide incentive to those who do not like manual type labor jobs to get off their duffs, improve their education, (in most incidences get at least a GED) and find better employment.

Independent, I read the story on the link you provided, and it made my blood run cold.  Unfortunately, it will be wasted on jerry.  I predict he'll say the guy's a liar, it's all a fabrication of the liberal media, etc., etc.  On the other hand, if he does read it and accept it as truth, we'll never hear from him about it.  After all, he's got an image to protect.

Ahhh Scott, you don't know me at all.  I read the story.  There are a couple of things here.  One, sounds like a he said/he said type of thing.  Was he held in the united states? No.  Secondly, he better have some witnesses and some proof all this happened.  Courts don't like lawsuits if there is no proof. We've heard his side and the liberal press's side in all this, now we need to hear the goverment side.  Sounds like he'll write a book and tour the country and go on television and then he'll go away, I've seen that happen a lot before.  As long as it didn't happen here and I can see something like that in a war zone, then I still say nothing has changed.  Everyone is so mad George Bush and his wiretapping, yet no one gets outraged when Hillary has her enemies wiretapped like they were in 1994.  

FL conservative, I like your thinking! I have been the recipient of food stamps several times over the last 20 years, but each time I was working full-time, just making very low wages.  I was so grateful for this temporary assistance! Since then I have become educated and fortunately, have been able to provide for my family fairly well.  

This reminds me of a situation we encountered here at my college.  The financial aid office used to have a policy that students receiving state grant funds were required to participate in the work-study program (10-15 hours a week)in order to receive the grant.  All our student job positions were filled.  This year, a student does not have to work in order to be eligible for these funds. Guess what?  we have many positions that aren't filled because (I suppose) the incentive just isn't there.

I am glad that we have the safety net of welfare, but I believe there are too many recipients who could work or go to school part-time in order to begin improving their circumstances.

why would anyone think guliani will stop the illegal aliens when he has already been bought and paid for by the people demanding a porous border?

FL Conservative - Agreed!  Another possibility for the farmers who claim they have nobody to pick the fruit and veggies - they could work with the local prisons to use non violent prisoners - the farmers could pay the state, feds, money for the labor, the funds would ease our tax monies funding those prisons, the people serving time would learn how to do an honest day's HARD work and by the time their time was served perhaps would think twice before they repeated the behavior that put them there. In the old days, prisoners made little rocks out of big rocks - guards could be the "foremen" and they could pick strawberries and tomatoes all day - I would think that would be a nice deterent to a life of crime and an incentive to get educated or get honest and work for a living! Of course, we'd have to change some laws probably that now force us to coddle prisoners as if they are royalty instead of making them work to earn their keep that you and I are paying for! There are MANY good solutions to the "problem" of farm labor, etc. that Bush and co. claim Americans "won't" do.  We all know it - they know it too but big business and big money wants that cheap illegal labor.  After all, not only is it cheap labor, they can also get by with hazardous work conditions, etc. that they would have to CHANGE with LEGAL labor. Keep speaking up and speaking out America.  We CAN take back our country - one call, one email, one fax - and if necessary one vote at a time. Those who vote yes to amnesty need to know we WILL remember and we vote NO to them when their turn comes.  If half the effort was made to find solutions to the problems these liars claim would be created without illegal alien labor to finding COMMON SENSE cost effective solutions for America's citizens - the problem would be solved yesterday. What don't they understand about ENFORCE the LAW??? No ifs, ands or buts, - just DO it and when the market dries up, the illegals will self deport.  Not in a week or a month - but a gradual self deportation will happen when they can no longer work the system in the US.  Washington KNOWS this as well as we - so the question is WHY are our laws not being enforced?  What does border security have to do with passing amnesty for illegal aliens?  We are supposed to be too stupid to know that one has NOTHING to do with the other?  They apparently think so. Babies born to illegal mothers should be illegal babies.  Not our problem if they birth them here - their problem - take them home when you go.  Nobody here will force them to leave their pitiful little Pedro on the streets of America.  Be responsible for a change - shut up and take your kid home with you.

We just had a huge bust at the del monte plant here down the street from Ricky's work. While he was on break he watched as it went down. WOW! what a mess... Mayor Tom Potter has been stating, "leave these people alone". Out of 200 employees on site for the day shift 167 of them were illegal. Not to mention the fact that Del Monte is owned by the arabs and the local/nation wide temp service that hired these people provided them with the false docs to live and work by. People do not understand how far reaching the costs of their behavior can be. Years ago Rick was pick pocketed. He had his metal Social security card in his wallet that his Dad gave him. We have been the victim of i.d. theft several times over for years now. In 1998 we spent months straightening out an issue when the IRS sent us a letter claiming that he had not reported his earnings correctly and we owed more taxes. Someone else in some other state halfway across the country was using his number and Social Securi ty reported all earnings to the IRS not just his actual earnings. We went through hell to prove that he could not have been in two places at the same time as science has not gotten that far yet. It isn't like we don't pay enough already! The papers have been covering the story explaining the system and its costs/fees to immigrate in order to help people better understand. What blows me away is that it is cheaper to come here legally than to pay the coyotes not to mention safer. Although I do understand that it isn't faster and that green cards are controlled and therefore limited to a bare 1.9 million per year (plus the agricultural workers cards) meaning for permanent status and non farm jobs the world has to be patient or persecuted or extremely valuable technically. I know this is a hot topic across the nation but I also know that what used to be a nice suburban town called Gresham is now a gang and drug infested slum just 15 years after my family lived there. The local stores are shut down and boarded up in the Rockwood district. You can't walk on the street where I used to ride my bike. The resident population there is now 40% hispanic. As teenagers we picked the crops for the money that bought our school clothes. I never saw a mexican in my life that wasn't on tv until I was about 20 years old. I am just fortyeight. I have friends from many different races and status quos but they are legal foreigners or American citizens and all non criminal tax payers. With all these facts right in plain sight... Why don't they get it?
CC

Scott in South Texas: Well, you were right.

Jerry that fascist-ignorant-stupid-should-be-locked-away-for-his-own-good-cares-about-nothing-but-arguing-regardless-of-the-seriousness-of-the-issue-and-should-be-shot-along-with-all-of-his-blood-relatives-to-clean-up-the-DNA-pool responded just as you predicted.

You know, up until about 3 years ago, I was a staunch gun control advocate. Now, I want an UZI. As long as we have these absolutely unbowed criminals in our government and absolutely stupid people like Jerry supporting them, we are not safe in our own homes against government coups.

I don't know what else we can do, Independent, except keep doing our part to show the rest of the country that all Texans aren't like jerry. You got to hand it to him, he's consistent, and predictably annoying.  Kinda like fire ants.  Most of what he says is so ridiculous as to be patently without credibility, but it bugs hell out of me when he's abusive.  I can't stand loud mouth bullies.

Scott in South Texas (6:05)/ I've given Jerry a lot of leeway over our time together on the blog. I've tried to be reasonable but I am giving up.

He doesn't care. He wants only to start arguments and be sarcastic. He never trys to sway an discussion or to lead people to agree with him because he has no interest in civil discourse. He, in fact, is probably incapable of intelligent debate and hides that lack of skill behind stupid remarks. He only wants to agitate. How he or anyone can read about Taguba or this AMERICAN CITIZEN'S experience in Abu Ghraib without howling in outrage is simply beyond me.

He seems to think this blog/discussion is some kind of game. He appears to have no idea the crisis this country is in and the dangers it faces. That danger doesn't come from Bin Laden. Its root is in the executive branch but the deadly virus is spreading all over the national government. These people make Nixon's antics look like a kidergarten game.

Well. I give up with Jerry. I've better things to do with my time and prefer talking to reasonable people like you.

I do want to talk to people who disagree with me, however. That is the way to truly test my opinions. I do not want to talk to agitators. Thanks for being patient with me.

People are comming to your border because you were there and lived there. When you came and cross our borders, we greet you well!! However, with your child disorderly ways, I don't know where you either both come from, but you ruin it for everybody? Check the way you are acting now in the media sending odd messages to everyone. If you're did took a stand in the beggining with Bill Cosby, Bob hope, Jessie Jackson with the Democrat, It would be a fight. However, a good one!! Like you're didn't know any better?

Rudy talks a good show but I don't trust him.  In an effort to appear conservative he has made an about face on several important issues.  He was all for illegal immigration while mayor; he was for banning guns; he was for abortion.  What changed his mind?  He's a politician!  Like Hillary, he says what is necessary to win votes.

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