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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Swift Boat, the sequel?

Posted: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:17 AM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under:

If there was one lesson of 2004, NBC’s Doug Adams says, it was to respond to attacks quickly and directly. In the summer of 2004, John Kerry let a slowly building media campaign against his Vietnam War experience explode into a debacle. From that campaign came a new phrase to the political lexicon -- swift boating.

Well, Rudy Giuliani may have his own "Swift Boaters" now. NBC News was given an exclusive look at a 13-minute video prepared by the International Association of Firefighters, the union for professional firefighters. The video is essentially a long attack ad against Giuliani, and it’s supplemented by a comprehensive Web site entitled, "Rudy Giuliani: Urban Legend." Both the video and the Web site will be unveiled today at 5:00 pm ET. Simultaneously, the video is being uplinked to YouTube and other internet sites.

Adams notes that many firefighters are incensed by Giuliani's use of 9/11 in the campaign, and they are determined to pierce the "myth of Giuliani." They are offended that Giuliani is using the tragedy to raise money and create the backdrop for his presidential campaign, and they claim that he is distorting the truth in order to do it. The video uses testimonials from a half dozen firefighters and relatives of firefighters who died in the World Trade Center attack, and it makes three main arguments against Giuliani:

-- RADIOS: The first is that the radio system the NYFD used during 9/11 was defective, and as a result firefighters in the towers could not hear two separate evacuation orders. As a result, 121 firefighters perished when the North Tower fell. But not one police officer died, because they had a working radio system and heard the urgent calls to leave the tower. The video claims that Giuliani and other New York officials knew for many years that the firefighter radio system did not work, and that they had the same problems during the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.
-- GOLD: The firefighters second argument is that Giuliani drastically scaled back search and recovery efforts at Ground Zero on Nov. 1, 2001 to make way for cleanup crews. The remains of dozens of firefighters killed in the attack had still not been found. The reason for the "scoop and dump" operation, as the firefighters call it? Gold. The same day he cut back the search teams, Giuliani also announced that more than $230 million worth of gold and silver bars had been recovered from vaults under the tower. Firefighters claim the search was always more about gold than it was about bodies.
-- COMMAND BUNKER: The final argument against Giuliani is perhaps the most effective. They say that because of business reasons, Giuliani made the decision to house the New York Command Center bunker at 7 World Trade Center building. The command center bunker was never used during that fateful day, and at 5:00 pm on the evening of 9/11, the 7 WTC tower fell. The firefighters question why -- of all places -- would the mayor put the Command and Control Center bunker for emergency operations in the very building complex that was a KNOWN terrorist target (given the 1993 bombing of the WTC)? Click here for more from Adams.

The Giuliani campaign forwarded First Read this statement from Lee Ielpi, a retired New York City firefighter: “It’s unfortunate but not surprising that union bosses have decided to take the low road in a move clearly out of step with their membership. In 2008, I expect these same union bosses to endorse Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama or John Edwards, so today’s comments are just a first step in that process. Fortunately, firefighters know the difference between politics and leadership."

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Excellent. HEAR, HEAR, for New York's Bravest!
It's about time the things Gigolo Rudy 'G' did in the wake of 911 were REALLY exposed.
This mean spirited, political bully needs to be exposed for what he truly is; a very little man who couldn't/shouldn't be leader of a boy scout troop, let alone President of The United States.
Excellent. HEAR, HEAR, for New York's Bravest!
It's about time the things Gigolo Rudy 'G' did in the wake of 911 were REALLY exposed.
This mean spirited, political bully needs to be exposed for what he truly is; a very little man who couldn't/shouldn't be leader of a boy scout troop, let alone President of The United States.
Well, Sean Hannity called the original Swift Boaters "Great Americans"... let's see what he calls the Firefighters Union.
the media is distorting the term swiftboating, unfortunately for the good swiftboat crews, the swiftboaters forever gave swiftboting a bad name by using the big lie technique against kerry.  the firefighters union is using the TRUTH about rudy, they are not LIES.
And under the leadership of Bloomberg has the situation been fixed?  Of course, who knew a bunch of ragheads were going to take out the towers.  I've seen a few shows where Rudy was praised for his leadership from the firemen and women of New York, so this is just another attack from another direction.
Well I'm just shocked to learn that the video of Kerry’s 1971 testimony was faked.
Thank you, ex-marine, I needed that. Thank you for coming to our defense. We did a job I will always be proud of. Kerry was a victim of the few bad apples that always exist in all ways of life. Having served actively from 65-67 with the Brown Water Navy, I know what swift boaters accomplished, until this bunch of repugnant yellowbacks decided to attack one of their own with false accusations. No serviceman determines what medals or commendations he/she receives. Kerry earned his.
Out of the woodwork comes another swift boat-style political attack and the victims cry foul. Big deal. Truth is the real loser in these political battles and soon becomes unknowable. Should I choose to side with "ex-marine, vietvet" above and assume who is lying and who isn't? No, crap dredged up from the past didn't sway me against Kerry, nor will it do so with Giuliani. Like Kerry, Giuliani is fully capable of collapsing under his own weight.
First Read guys-- Same question from the First Thoughts Thread.
Common usage of the "swift boat" metaphor infers
"a strong pejorative description of some kind of attack that the speaker considers unfair--for example, an ad hominem attack or a smear campaign." (Wikipedia)
So are you reporting that he is in fact being lied about by the fire fighters or are you reporting that his position is that he is being lied about? Not trying to be over sensitive here but the press has an obligation to be precise if it is striving to be impartial. The way you guys say things is very important because when repeated again and again the perception becomes the "fact". Ask Karl Rove or BillO.
Giuliani can now point to respected political commentators agreeing that he is being "Swift Boated" or lied about by people with an agenda. How about fact checking their accusations before helping him out?
Giuliani is _not_ being swift boated. Swift boating is when someone uses a pack of demonstrable lies to smear a political enemy. And the accusations against Kerry _were_ all proven to be nothing but lies and slander. As far as I know, the charges against Giuliani made by the firefighter's union are all true.

Unfortunately, the distinction between truth and lies seems to be a mere triviality to contemporary journalists. That would explain why you fail to see any difference between the firefighters attacks on Giuliani's phoney political posturing and the original swift boaters' scurrilous attacks on Kerry's very real military service. The passion of old-time journalists like Edward R. Murrow was for digging out the truth and presenting it to the public. But the truth just seems to be out of style in what passes for modern journalism.
Why do you guys continue to attempt to discredit those swiftboat guys? They were there with Kerry, not any of you. The liberal press and liberals in general did everything they could to attack those guys but failed. It is what it is. Kerry said and did all of that BS. I was young boy at the time but my father to this day hates Kerry, and he is a die-hard Democrat. He hated Kerry long before that campaign. Kerry lost period. Everytime some liberal loses an election, its always something flaky. Just accept your loss and move on. You never see any Republican on natl tv constantly talking about how their defeat was ......
ravine force always glad to speak up for the good folks who stand up for what is right, hang in there bro.
I've been reading about a guy named Brian Sullivan, a former special agent with the FAA, he wrote a letter to John Kerry telling him how easy it would be to commit a hijacking out of Boston's Logan airport.  He wrote back that he was sending the information to some agency and asked that the inspector general brief his staff when the findings came out.  Just a little too late.  Another person came forward and asked Kerry to look into it and he felt the senator just blew him off.  Also, on CNN Crossfire on November 12 1997, he stated for the world to hear that Bill Clinton did not need UN approval to attack Iraq if he wanted to.  He kind of changed his tune when President Bush decided to follow his advice in 2003.  Google is a wonderful thing.
Jackson, Houston--They discredited themselves. They were not on Kerry's boat. His crew was with him. Ask them, Ask the pentagon. Go here:
http://www.factcheck.org/republican-funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html
Keep repeating the lie, Jackson.
War is peace,
Freedom is slavery,
Ignorance is strength
"Google is a wonderful thing."

But Jerry..... you have to know how to tell FACT from FICTION.
Rudy was complicit in 911. There was a lot more gold than the $322 million, thats just what they didn't get out before they pulled the building. Who got the rest? Rudy is toast, he'll never get the nomination. Even the sheeple aren't that stupid. Are they?
What's wrong with Giuliani?  How is he any different from the other candidates?  All the hopefuls spin and interpret their actions to make them look better.  Some are distorded while others are embellished.  They are running for the most important job of the world.  Either you like them or you don't.  I personally am a New Yorker and an independent.  I am all for Giuliani!!
To, jerry/corpus christi texas;
Here's a clue jerry.....you're from Texas, you know NOTHING about New York.
Likewise, you sure as hell don't know anything about what happened here on 911, or during its' aftermath.
You are another one of those people to whom 911 was/is nothing more than television entertainment. You watched it while you were sitting on your fat comfortable ass in front of a TV with a beer in your hand.
Those of us who reside and work in and around The New York area LIVED through that day and dealt with the gut wrenching pain both during and after the event.
So here's another little hint for ya'....SHUT IT! Don't speak of things that you know NOTHING about.
Gigolo Rudy 'G' has tried to use the horrific events of 911 and his status as New York's Mayor when it happened as a catapalt to The GOP nomination in 2008.
There are a lot of us here who think that is DESPICABLE!
Gary Schear, thanks for posting a link to the facts debunking the sleazy lies told by the Swifties. I was going to do something of the sort myself, but you saved me the trouble of rehashing the wretched afffair. Too bad so few people in the news media bothered to do any similar fact checking.

The complaints of the firefighters' union may or may not be overstated, but they are in no way similar to the blatant falsehoods about Kerry that were puked up by the Swift Liars.

BTW: I was never a big fan of Kerry's, but it's thoroughly disgusting to see anyone get slimed like Kerry was by the bottom-feeding minions of "The Decider."
Dorothy [[What's wrong with Giuliani? ]]

Simple: he wants to continue Bush's disastrous Iraq war and he wants to continue Bush's policy of violating the civil liberties of American citizens with 9/11 as the all-purpose excuse for any outrageous abuse of power a monarchical executive cares to perpetrate. Any more questions?
Because GOP candidates & the GOP in particular are desperate to hold on to the power they now possess, look for GOP political operatives to get right down into the sewer and serve that up to the public in order to get their people reelected. Also, look for conglomerates & the super wealthy to dig deep into their slush-funds to fund the GOP whom they perceive as being their primary benefactors regarding huge tax cuts they've received at the expense of the poor and middle class. They will do whatever is necessary to maintain their huge increase in income visa-vee their tax cuts to the wealthy.
Jerry - You show your ignorance by calling them a bunch of "ragheads".  You put down an entire group of people who dress a certain way because of their religion.  These people were fanatics, and you don't help matters by being derogatory against a whole group of people.  I guess you also agreed with the interrment of the Japanese American citizens during World War II?
Ravine force- Many thanks for your service to our country. It's a shame that the majority of the people in this country do not know what you guys had to go through over there. Drawing fire on yourselves in a very harsh environment, to expose the enemy. The life expectancy for you guys being measured in hours, not days of weeks. I had a very close friend who has since passed that was with you guys over there. I have nothing but admiration for all of you who were there, including Kerry even though I didn't agree with some of his political stands. Hang in there, my man, and many, many thanks again.
great interview by the firefighter on Hardball---gee Guilliani not a hero of 9/11?More like a liar---fits right in with the whitehouse.If he runs against Hillary he has his work cut out for him.Wonder where the gold went to that he was so fanatic about the firefighters retrieving and the hell with the bodies.That is a hero?
A truth squad is not a swift boat
"Jackson, Houston--They discredited themselves. They were not on Kerry's boat. His crew was with him"
As if his was the only boat in the region.
Kerry got a boo boo and wanted a medal.
Not that his chasing the kid with the launcher wasn't cool, but he beached his craft at an angle that prevented his main armament from coming to bear on any threats from the shore. His shooting the kid was self preservation at best.
If you lose a man overboard you are pretty much obligated to pick him up.

Not all of Kerry's crew back up some of his claims, and none would comment much on his claim about spending Christmas in Cambodia. Besides which he had claimed Nixon was president at the time, which he wasn't.
Kerry even spoke up on behalf of Lt Calley, they say thats one reason Calley got off so light.

The Vietnamese Communists sent the VVAW a letter thanking them for their contribution to the Communist Victory.
Also like Micah Wright a number of the most vocal VVAW members lied about their military service while defaming those who had served with honor.
Kerry was a scumbag regardless of any medals, the Democrats might as well have nominated John Wayne Gacy.
'Kerry was a scumbag regardless of any medals, the Democrats might as well have nominated John Wayne Gacy.'

Relative of yours, Wayne?



Wayne, M'town TN--I know this is just p*ssing in the wind but this is an excerpt for the Factcheck.org check of facts in the SBVFT attacks on Kerry.

"Another major discrepancy raises a question of how close Kerry's accusers actually were to the rescue of Rassmann. Tour of Duty describes Rassmann's rescue (and the sniper fire) as happening "several hundred yards back" from where the crippled PCF-3 was lying, not "a few yards away," the distance from which the anti-Kerry veterans claim to have witnessed the incident."
My cousin died in Vietnam. 6:25 post, want to call me a liar too?Ravine Force, fight on for the truth.I have my duct tape and my bottles of water but I refuse to to live in fear.Our President stood on a pile of rubble and promised me and my fellow citizens he would find bin Laden al Zwahiri and Mullah Omar.And he also called me "unpatriotic." Guess he knows little about me, his fellow citizen.    
"My cousin died in Vietnam. "
So did mine, and I never appreciated Kerry defaming his memory or the memory of those others on the wall including your cousin.
I had a run in with the VVAW in 69, they were punks and folded faster than Superman on laundry day.

Kerry sunk his own credibility with his own statements after his return.
"Wayne, M'town TN--I know this is just p*ssing in the wind but this is an excerpt for the Factcheck.org check of facts in the SBVFT attacks on Kerry"

Its pissing in the wind because I never heard of the swiftboat veterans before I formed my opinion or Kerry,I saw the scum bag in action here at home when he was defaming out troops and spouting the defeatist claptrap the commies had programed him to say.
I listened and knew he was a liar, others listened and sucked it down without a grain of salt.

Kerry's own mouth convicted him, not what others said.
His rants against or troops and their commanders, and his fawning admiration of the commies are public record.
Ravine seems so dead set on giving the impression that Kerry is beyond reproach, if so lets hear about the atrocities Ravine and Kerry committed while rampaging through the countryside like "Genghis Khan" as Kerry put it.
"Having served actively from 65-67 with the Brown Water Navy, I know what swift boaters accomplished, until this bunch of repugnant yellowbacks decided to attack one of their own with false accusations. No serviceman determines what medals or commendations he/she receives. Kerry earned his.
Ravine Force, Kissimmee, FL
"
Lets hear you call your fellow service members "Yellow Backs" one more time Ravine.
This does not surprise me for a man that has a business partner that is in bed with the mob and cheated on his wife and disrespected his family so blatantly.  This shows you his decision making ability, WOW he is dangerous.  

It was proven that the Swift Boat Veterans were liars!!!  THis is America and we are free to speak our minds.  Where were Bush, Cheney and even that jerk Boehner of Ohio when Vietnam was going on, hiding behind their "momma's dresses!"

  Even if this is not true the fact remains to my knowledge I have not seen nor heard anything of what Rudy has done to fight terrorism.He is a blank slate in terms of legislation or planning.All I've seen him do is make millions on the lecture circuit exploiting the dead of 9/11 for his own benifit and desire to add president to his ego driven credentials.
Kind of like Billiary making money off of their 8 crap years in office.  The Don't Worry Be Happy Presidency did nothing for national security, and we see where that got us.  Less bjs in the office, and more attention to terror threats would have been nice thing.  Now BC is making $500000 a speech.  Good money, for a jerk.
"It was proven that the Swift Boat Veterans were liars!!!  THis is America and we are free to speak our minds.  Where were Bush, Cheney and even that jerk Boehner of Ohio when Vietnam was going on, hiding behind their "momma's dresses!"
jane doe
"
Did you vote for clinton if so ,have you ever read of how Clinton dodged the draft?

Kerry was and is a Scumbag regardless.
When Kerry served it was Lyndon Johnson's War not Nixon's War, Johnson lied and people died I guess.

I still don't see why ravine would call the swiftboat Vets "Yellowbacks" they never ran from a fight.
Something just occurred to me.
What is an "Ex-Marine"?
I've never heard any Marine describe themself as an "ex-Marine", no matter how long ago they served.

Also just what is or was "Ravine Force"? I've heard of the "Riverine Force" but nowhere can I find any mention of ravine Force.

Just Asking.
The firefighters union is the one being "Swift Boated" by the mainstream media, not Mr. Giuliani. The "Swift Boat Veterans for..Truth?" brazenly lied about Senator Kerry's war record and the mainstream media not only failed to call them on their lies, but actually helped publicize and magnify them. That's what made their attacks so reprehensible. The firefighters, on the other hand, are conveying facts and then giving their interpretation and views based on those facts. That's a difference much wider than the Bay Hap River.
You all write about how Kerry was Swift Boated.  Well the real truth is how much time did the scumbag spend in the Navy.  You all write of the brief time he spent in Vietnam.  The scumbag served aboard The Griddley longer than that.  What happened there nothing? John Kerry could not come to grip with military service and speak the truth of why he left the service early.  Just another rich punk kid with a chip on his hunched over shoulders.  Could not even stand tall.  He is and will always be a loser.
After all this time, the Swift Boat battle rages on. It's been some time since a post by others here, but the most recent bout between Kerry and T. Boone Pickens has resurrected some new dust. I was an officer in the United States Navy and I served in the same area of Vietnam. You might like to read my thoughts about Kerry - written in August of 2004 - before he lost the election. Get ready for a detailed treatice about his leadership and what I think might well have happened. It's all here at http://www.thomgrp.com/Kerry/Kerry.htm.
After all this time, the Swift Boat battle rages on. It's been some time since a post by others here, but the most recent bout between Kerry and T. Boone Pickens has resurrected some new dust. I was an officer in the United States Navy and I served in the same area of Vietnam. You might like to read my thoughts about Kerry - written in August of 2004 - before he lost the election. Get ready for a detailed treatice about his leadership and what I think might well have happened. It's all here at http://www.thomgrp.com/Kerry/Kerry.htm.


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