ABOUT FIRST READ

First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Final Thoughts

Posted: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:18 PM by Chuck Todd

From NBC's Chuck Todd
With so many debates and forums, there are two things that matter, overall impressions or stand-out moments.  The star of this event was clearly the format, and I mean that as a positive. This was a great forum, a wonderful change of pace from what we've had before. These were good questions and CNN did a good job with timing. My only critique of the format was the moderator and his lack of understanding when a mini-debate was about to break out. Anderson Cooper (who's never been mistaken for a political junkie) missed a HUGE opportunity to give all of the TV nets and the media a chance to air/write a Clinton v. Obama lead. That's the down side of an event that is so reliant on a complicated technology format, the news being made gets lost. For all the fun that this format created, the candidates never did, um, debate.

Now, as for the overall impressions, Clinton did nothing to lose her frontrunner status. Obama had to go out of his way to take a shot at her and the moderator missed the shot and denied us a BIG moment.  Clinton's answer about when/if she'd meet with certain controversial world leaders/dictators. The contrast between Obama's answer and Clinton's answer was the difference between someone running for the Dem nomination and someone running for Commander in Chief. She got the better of him on that one.

This isn't to say Obama wasn't solid, he was. In fact, he got stronger as the debate wore on. She was simply better on that one question and it was important because it exemplified her experience argument. All that said, Obama has really improved. He's much better answering questions in 60-seconds than he was in the earlier debates. He didn't get his shot off at Clinton in a way that got Cooper's attention. Is that Cooper's fault or Obama's? I say it's Cooper's but maybe Obama could have delivered the punch harder. BTW, Obama did a very good job tonight of getting key parts of his personal biography in his answers. In previous debates, his answers seemed a bit impersonal, tonight Obama came across much better and viewers got to know him a bit.

One more important Clinton-Obama exchange to highlight: the question about Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton fatigue. She had a great retort re: the 2000 election. But Obama's answer was a very good closing statement and trumped her answer because he attacked it seriously. How voters view the two answers Clinton and Obama gave, I think, will determine who the Democrats nominate. I'd love to see side-by-side dial-testing on those two answers to THAT one question.

As for the rest of the field: Edwards started the evening on the defensive (thanks to the early questions he got), but had his moments. His story about the man who couldn't get the operation in order to talk until he was 50 was riveting.  But of the candidates not named Obama or Clinton, Biden probably had the best night. He was passionate when necessary and blunt when called for. He was the straight talker on that stage Monday night. Richardson was better but didn't get much of an opportunity. Dodd, with the limited time he got, was strong as well. But one always got the impression that Dodd had to crash the party in order to get attention.

Of the YouTube submissions: Dodd's was the most memorable for me. Edwards' video becomes better on second viewing but was hard to get when first haired, er, aired on CNN. None of the others were as memorable.

UPDATE: There was a legitimate question in the comments about what moment I was talking that Cooper missed. Obama criticized Clinton for being late to the game in her criticism of the Pentagon for NOT having a plan for withdrawal. My apologies for the lack of detail.



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I feel that Hillary won because she comes across as being the one most ready to lead the country should she get the nomination.  As you stated, I also believe that Obama came off much stronger in this debate.   Edwards was passionate, but the way I see it, he may win one or two primaries but has NO CHANCE in the national election.  Either Richardson or Biden would make a great Secretary of State in a Clinton White House.
Loved that Youtube was used.  Maybe we'll have a better turnout rate of younger people when it comes time to vote.  I can't wait for the youth of this country to stand up, vote & get all the archaic, hardened politicians OUT!!  Loved Hillary ... sounds JUST LIKE A PRESIDENT! Obama was awesome too.
I thought the questions were wonderful - so nice to have real people asking tough questions, not plants in the audience with microphones. Although I have supported Edwards for years, I am becoming more and more convinced that Clinton would be an excellent choice. I thought she did a wonderful job and showed that she can handle herself without coming off as harsh or cold. Her answer about sitting down with hostile world leaders displayed her unique preparedness for the position in ways that the others on the stage could not. Richardson slipped in my opinion, and would make an excellent Secretary of State, he would talk issues to death. I liked Biden's repeated emphasis that withdrawal from Iraq will take longer than some of the others were promising - I think having these diverse candidates keeps the top tier candidates honest. I like that Elizabeth Edwards is emerging as a power house, showing that the Edwards' are a contemporary couple in the way that Bill and Hillary are. All in all, I am so excited for this election cycle and think it is a wonderful time in America when the top white male candidate is #3!!
Horrible debate format.  Was that a debate for arguably the most important job in the world ... or was that an audition for SuperBowl commercial producers?
Everyone refers to the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton fatigue. It's even worse than fatigue!......since 1980 it's been Reagan/BUSH - Reagan/BUSH - Clinton -Bush - Clinton?. America just loves royalty ! The Bush/Clinton royal families love to say it time for a change. I agree, NO MORE ROYAL FAMILIES IN THE USA. !!!

SEE YA IN 2012 JEB BUSH !
Many of the questions were stupid and beneath the dignity of the occasion.  Just awful.  Obama has absolutely no substance at all, and some of his answers, such as unconditionally sitting down with the likes of Ahmadnejad, are totally unacceptable.
Joe Biden is the smartest of all.  I am no Clinton fan, but she handled herself quite well and is a formidable force.
I'm getting really tired of hearing of hearing about nothing but democrats.  I'm beginning to dislike liberals as much as i dislike muslims.
How is this forum any different from what we've seen previously?  Sure it was hosted by YouTube and the questions came from real Americans, I guarantee the candidates saw the video clips well prior to this debate and had their answers rehearsed as usually.
Blame the current Administration for everything wrong in the world yet offer nothing in the form of change.  That's the way the Dems won the House and Senate and now they have worse ratings then Bush.
The next President will need to work with congress to get things done to get our country back on course.  To do that, moderate Republicans cannot be alienated so we can work together to fix the mess that Bush has made.  Chris Dodd has the experience and the respect of his collegues in congress to get things done.  
I love the idea that we could just stop funding the war, thing is all of the taxes we pay don't make our lives better, we can throw away billions of dollars on making worldwide enemies in the name of anti-terror, but we won't spend a dime on taking care of our own citizens' healthcare, or making our own streets safer for that matter; the point is things won't change, it is pleasing to think someone is going to make a changee for the good of the people, but again, its all about the big money and special interests-and the hypocracy would be amusing, were it not so sad; How many times did I hear the candidates bash big business and the (evil correctly implied)-insurance companies, and big business (where are these candidates getting their paychecks from?)Give us a break! We are not naive, we are simply disenfranchised. It is a world of red tape and lies, and Joe average citizen doesn't have teams of lawyers  and campaign dollars to really have his/her voice heard-oh,wait, I thought that was what our electorate was for, but again, that is all "in theory". So I guess the question is, which two-faced crook from which self-serving party do you want to give power and riches to, 'cause for we the taxpayer, the wounded soldier, the infirmed elder, the underpayed worker, we're juust here to fund these modern-day robber-barons.
Reading articles like this just reinforces the notion that the media controls the show.  Why can’t Biden break out? Because all he ever gets in the media are these one liners saying how great he did then the focus returns to this stupid sophomoric popularity contest.  This is ridiculous! -- "But of the candidates not named Obama or Clinton, Biden probably had the best night" --  Great, how about a better follow up to that comment Mr. Todd?  Joe Biden is brilliant, articulate, experienced  and a statesman and it’s time for him to get some attention from the press and time to speak at these lopsided debates.
Edwards is the best overall candidate for President, Obama for Vice Pres. - Richardson would be a masterful Sec. of State.
With due respect to Sen. Clinton, everytime her voice rises, she loses 100,000 votes - and frankly - without her last name/connection to Bill, would not even be considered (though the same could have been said for Bush - who did LOSE the 1st election, and has disgraced our country with unbelievable incompetence.)Pres. Edwards will bring us back to our place as the honorable leaders of the free world.
This was by far the best format for a debate that I have seen. However the problem is there was not enough time to develop answers or to pose a question to all the  candidates. A series of debates using this format and limited to a few subjects per debate would give the opportunity for more detailed answeres and debate between the candidates. At some point the field will need to be cut to the top four or five.
Barbara Jean said that Edwards was the most passionate but doesn't have a chance to win. She doesn't seem to understand that as long as she listens to the media's analysis instead of what the candidates say that she is voting for the medias candidate not the one that she wants.
If tese are the best we have to offer America and the world, God help us!Hollow preconceived words, no substance as well as no substance questions. Politics are suddenly at a kindergarden level. Clinton/Obama; give me a bresk!!!!
I live in northern California and had no chance to watch the debate. DIRECTV doesn't have a channel to replay the debate for the entire night. I was no mad. I missed the first and this last one already. It's unfair. Not everybody can watch this time of P.M.
I live in northern California and had no chance to watch the debate. DIRECTV doesn't have a channel to replay the debate for the entire night. I was so mad. I missed the first and this last one already. It's unfair. Not everybody can watch this time of P.M.
I've been an Edwards supporter since '04, but his answer to the Gay marriage question left me cold.  He obfuscated when discussing the difference between his PERSONAL religious beliefs and what he would do as President, but his refusal to support Gay marriage to me, may be a deal breaker.

I've been married to the same woman for 46 years next month. I would hope that someday, should my grandchildren turn out to be Gay, they would also have the opportunity to enjoy 46 years, or more, of a loving marriage to someone of their choosing regardless of gender.  

Marriage is a personal choice and the government has no business denying its availability to anyone, regardless of his or her sexual orientation.  I would hope our next President believes the same.
Chris, unfortunately I missed the debate, so your article was a bit difficult to read. You kept referencing different moments in the debate, but you never explain what happened in that moment, just your take on it. I see you included an update regarding the Obama/Clinton question -- I could use a similar update on the entire article. For those of us that didn't catch the debate the article is a bit confusing. Thanks.
This WAS NOT A DEBATE!  These "arm chair generals" are trying to sound like they know about war... they do not. They do not know how to win; they do not know how to leave; they do not know how to do anything except complain.  The key operative word is "SOLUTIONS".  They need to present a solution to WIN in IRAQ, Win in the war on terror.  Without a detailed solution they are just another group of lightweight media fops. they should abandon "MOVE-ON.org's leftest views.
Was I the only one that could see Biden is the best candidate?
I missed a portion of the debates but I didn't hear any questions posed about illegal immigration and enforcing our laws on immigration or protecting our border from the waves of illegals coming in as well as potential drug runners and terrorists. I know questioned had to have been posted why didn't they get aired.
pretty silly format; having members of the public ask the questions CNN then selects in no way represents connection with the electorate.  how unfortunate that this masquerade appears to have worked.
In my opinion, last nights show, not debate, was very revealing.  I felt that Joe biden did very well with his tough talk.  I felt it was very appropriate considering all the double talk we have been subjected to in the past ten + years.  Now all he needs to do is get his facts straight and not be afraid of offending some groups who don't really represent Mainstream Democrats.

Obama came off as genuine but a bit amateurish and although I never cared for Hillary, I gained a great deal of respect for her as a result of her "progressive" remarks.  I'm a moderate Deomcrat, not a left winger and I applaud any candidate who can admit to having positions both left and right of center.
If Biden can keep up the tough talk with "Facts" and some well placed shots at the GOP, I think he can become a contender.
"To those who want another 4 years  of a Clinton don't forget all the nonesense they caused, all the deception, all the lies, and all the manipulation...haven't you had enough already?! "

Ummm the current administration lied about a $ 500 billion war, WMD's, political firing of prosecutors... the Valerie Plame case. All have to do with crimes in office... that are actually against the people and not just a personal issue.
Kucinich as usual is the candidate with the most substance, greatest depth of proposals, and strong leadership in Congress.  He has a plan on his website for ending the war in Iraq.  Wish to hear more from him.
They are both socialist, running for the presidentcy of the United States. Why would anyone want a socialist as President. What is wrong with you people. Look at what Clinton did, sold nucluar secrets to China, Carter gave North Korea the time to build a nucluar bomb,by sticking his liberal nose in some thing he had no business putting it in, as well as give China control of the only water way to the Pacific in case of war to China. Now you want to elect another socailist as President to sell and give up our safety and sovenority away again. As Quinn' says "LIBERALS GENERATE THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THEIR STATED INTENT". Look at what the Liberals are doing to this war on terror, Given imformation to the enemy to embold them to stay in Iraq and put pressure on the soldiors tokeep the enemy at bay. Why because the Liberals have their nose in a war that they have no business in anyway. Their "LIBERALS" are doing the same thing they did during Veitnam tring to lose the war for the sake of belittleing Bush. They hate Bush so much that they want him to lose this war for their personal political gain. Help save America vote against any Liberal running for office be they Republican or be they Democrat. Liberals are nothing more then a socialist ,marxist with the Democrat title after it.Every Liberal ran country is in disaray every one of them. Crime high sky, murder high sky and every other immoral issue on earth. Every state that is ran by liberals have turned into welfare states, Pennsylvaina is evolving into one right now. It's a state of prison's and elderly home's and low-income housing projects. With drugs on every corner, and swamped with illegal- alien's in a state that was the steel producing empior with the largest railroad system in the world. Now is a welfare state THANKS to LIBERALS>
Rey N. Baguio, Stockton, California, I don't have cable TV. I watched it on CNN's website. You can too...its still there...then I ran back to MSNBC to see what First Read had to say.  
The candidates all agree that we were sold on the war with lies. But none of them has yet said what he/she thnks were the real reasons for the invasion of Iraq. Forget WMD, democracy, stopping AlQuada there before they come here. Why did Bush have us invade Iraq? Kucinich hints that oil was involved but even he will not spell it out. My fear is that the dems are against the war now mainly because we are loosing, and not because they disagree with the real reasons behind the war.
Sen. Clinton came across to me as very stoic, stiff and not someone who I would want to cast my vote for, but after these eight years I will vote for the Dem who gets nominated.  Edwards answer about gay marriage has me backing away from him...and my son (18 today) will be proud (I hope anyway lol) to scooot over on Sen. Obama's bandwagon and save me a place.  
It would be excellent if CNN could strongarm the final 2 presidential candidates to this format for one of their fall 08 debates. The format fits the under 40 generation like a glove, I loved it.
I was a Clinton supporter, however, after last night, I am leaning more toward either Obama and Edwards.  I just saw them as  "less polished" politicans, and real people.  Isn't it time we stop electing more of the same.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results...
To Ron from Beaver Falls, PA,

You are obviously either insane, or brainwashed by right-wing media.  Not to mention that EVERY one of your supposed "facts" are incorrect.  I will not bother telling you what is correct, because, one, you will not listen anyway, and two, it would take actual thought and effort on your part to research the truth.
I think Hillary Clinton won hands down.  Yes, she sounds presidential that is what we want.  Remember (Bush) never sounded presidential, everyone wanted to have beer with him and look where that got us.  Hillary is well informed and very comfortable answering the questions, I don't want someone who will promise everything and then can't deliver anything.  We have to be as honest as we can  be in this election.  I never though Hillary could win in the beginning, now I believe she has a real shot at being the the First Woman President.  Here statement was correct (Maybe the best man for the job is a WOMAN).
When it comes to actually answering a question, Joe Biden was the only candidate on that stage that did so frankly and honestly. I saw a lot of dancing around the answer by the other candidates.
That being said, Edwards is such a poor candidate. In a number of his answers he referred to his opponents, which could be seen as and endorsement. If the others have all of the answers right, why should we support him? It is as if he can’t think for himself.
Clinton, on the other hand, looks good and sounds good, but she never actually SAYS anything. While she is probably more aware than anyone else what goes into the job of president, I don’t think she’d be any different than the president we have now. It would just be more of the same.
As for Obama, he seems genuine, even if he does lack experience.
Obama has my vote - my husband's vote - my son's vote. Although we would take Hilary if we had to, we are tired of the old smooth politians. Give us Obama with his outright honest views and inspiration. I agree that the media puts too much emphasis on Hilary when clearly the people of America want a NEW outlook in Washington. We'd like to see the media start admitting that Obama is the people's choice.
Before we get too caught up in who the winners and losers of the debates are, let's remember that the guy who can rarely string together even three words at a time in anything resembling a coherent fashion is our president, God help us.
This was a terrific debate, and far more substantive than the questions asked by the cocktail weenie Very Serious People in the Washington Press Corps.  This time the Dirty Effing Hippies asked the questions and we got a very good handle on these candidates.  I hate to admit it, but Hillary solidified her lead with this one.  She looked and sounded presidential, and had the biggest cojones of the night without being shrill.  My heart belongs to John Edwards; I think he is onto something with health care and with poverty, but I also think Americans are so frightened about becoming poor themselves that they will respond by running away from the poverty as fast as their legs can carry them.  You see how much Americans care about Katrina victims these days (i.e not one iota).  

I think Edwards/Obama would be a dynamite ticket, but the Democratic hacks have already decided that Hillary is the nominee.  And she will get her behind kicked in November 2008.  I hope you liked the Third Reich, because that's what you're going to get with Republicans.
I agree with Renny, I will not vote for ANYONE who supports a "path to citizenship" for illegal aliens. I also would not vote for Hillary Clinton or John Edwards as both support amnesty for illegal immigrants.

"Obama marched with illegals on may 1, 2007, promising these lawbreakers amnesty within the first year of if presidency, if he was elected.  I, for one, would NEVER vote for him."  
Just to get a more balanced view of these "debates", as you people seem to have already corninated Hillary Clinton, I went out and read some online comments from foreign newspapers and web sites. The results are more than a little interesting.
the BBC commentators called the debate and format "hype". They also called Clinton's answers "scripted". The winner, according to BBC commentators and the British viewing public was Dennis Kucinich!

The GÖTEBORGS-POSTEN (Sweden) has a one paragrph summary, calling the "debate" a waste of time and a failure. The Scandinavian view of American's is that we are trivial fools, 'too much addicted to the Jerry Springer format of shows'.

The Allgemeine Zeitung (Germany) completely ignored the "debate". The one letter to the editor in todays news paper called it "silly". The Stuttgarter-Zeitung has a lead story this morninging titled "Hillary Clinton: A woman without characteristics".

It sounds to me as if the rest of the world doesn't much regard Hillary Clinton as being any better than George Bush...and maybe even worse. You people at MSNBC *really* need to get more! The rest of the world thinks we are idiots over here, our politics run by fanatics and dupes, funded by corporations that do a disservice to the American public.
Clinton & Obama are the favorite candidates for the Presidential race.The reason I said this, was that they are better prepared for the race than any of the rest candidates, when compared in terms foreign policies,decession makeing sincerity and dependability.Both of them can put up a good fight against the Republicants,and win the 2008 election.
I am sure that Toni Newmarket misspoke when she talked about nonsense, deception, lies, manipulation, and having enough already. She must have surely meant the past seven years of Bush. I guess FoxNews confused her. Their viewers are easily confused.

By the way, I said a year ago that I would love to see Hillary as President with Obama as Vice President(eight years of hands on experience for him) and Bill as Sec. of State. Wouldn't be nice to have intelligent people in charge after the morons we currently have?
Having read all these posts, I'm reminded of Winston Churchill's infamous quote: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." If Churchill was alive today, he'd amend it to include pundits, who seem to be more contrived than the pandering candidates and dulled down electorate. Not that I think we should put any stock in what that fat elitist pig ever said, but the quote is apropos.

Rarely have I read a larger collection of horsesh!t concerns. If you're selecting your next president on gay marriage alone, even if you're gay, shame on you, your selfishness knows no bounds. If you're going to vote for a candidate because they "seem presidential", ditto the above. Even ending the Iraq war, as important as that is, should not be anyone's sole reason for selecting a candidate.

Our country's middle class is under an assault more grave than at any other time in our history. The average American carries more debt than ever before, as does our country as a whole. China's real estate holdings, coupled with their de-valued currency, will make them our de-facto landlords in the future. The trade deficit is a menace to middle class America. The same can be said regarding illegal immigration. What is needed is leadership and policy (whether in taxation, immigration, trade agreements, the environment, government spending, etc.)that benefits the majority of middle America, not soley the elites of America.

The media has already annointed Clinton as the next president, and she's the ONLY democrat that, if elected, will cause me to begin job hunting in New Zealand!! Mr. Clinton was a champion of Most Favored Nation trading status to China and NAFTA. If Mrs. Clinton is elected, her leadership will be the ruin of America, a process not started by, but continued by, her husband. Oh, and by the way, does it creep anyone else out that, if elected, she'll have to show up for work everyday in the very same room her husband cheated on her in? Not fair, but true!!
The whole thing was a joke, mostly a marketing scheme for CNN, which also managed to frame Hillary as the centerpiece of the debate (notice how she is in the center of the photograph wearing pink so that you are drawn immediately to notice her and ignore everyone else). Andersen Cooper's facilitation of the debate was also pathetic -- he was utterly incapable of keeping the candidates on topic, or keeping them true to answering any of the questions.

I wouldn't trust the fairness of CNN's hosting of the debate. Most of the comments on their web site are overwhelmingly in support of the so-called "historic" YouTube debate (as they called it on the day it was hosted) and probably are biased in favor of the politician(s) CNN is supporting (or are being patronized by).

As for opinions that may conflict with CNN.... I posted the same comment twice on CNN's website this morning that I posted here (which was critical of Hillary) which CNN censored from the comment section to their web article (http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/23/debate.main/index.html)
For reference, my comment, which MSNBC allowed to be posted was:

"I found it intensely insulting when Hillary answered a derisive "sure" to whether or not she would work for the minimum wage -- proving she cares nothing about the problems of the little people. Watching this debate I find it amazing that she is leading in the polls as she is. She appeared smug and skulking through the entire debate, wouldn't even look at her competitors when they talked most the time, and her responses were generally shallow and disingenuous -- just the hollow words of a hollow politician."
John Edwards was the most articulate, authentic and sincere in his answers.  His story of the fifty year old man was heart-felt.  Edwards has a plan, cares for common people, and thinks on his feet.  Hillary is also bright and articulate, politically savvy, and understands domestic and foreign policy.  Obama is intelligent, but comes across as shallow and unseasoned--needs more time and grade.  He really must quit harping on Hillary's vote for the war.  He wasn't in the senate to vote one way or another, and consequently was not subjected to the Bush propaganda machine that promoted this war fiasco..First Edwards, then Hillary.  I will be proud to vote for either one.
I thought Obama's answer to the question about meeting foreign leaders was far superior to Clinton's. In many ways she sounded like George Bush, setting up preconditions. Obama's point was that unlike George Bush and apparently Hillary, he would not hesitate to meet with them.
John Edwards was the most articulate, authentic and sincere in his answers.  His story of the fifty year old man was heart-felt.  Edwards has a plan, cares for common people, and thinks on his feet.  Hillary is also bright and articulate, politically savvy, and understands domestic and foreign policy.  Obama is intelligent, but comes across as shallow and unseasoned--needs more time and grade.  He really must quit harping on Hillary's vote for the war.  He wasn't in the senate to vote one way or another, and consequently was not subjected to the Bush propaganda machine that promoted this war fiasco..First Edwards, then Hillary.  I will be proud to vote for either one.
That's not controversial. Hillary saying Obama's answer is naive is controversial, however. Obama's position is not naive...its actually what most on the left have been calling for since Bush took office. If she's gonna disagree with that, then what position is she espousing?

Can't have it both ways. If you want to make the point that her position isn't that hawkish, then you gotta admit she's distorting Obama's position. If you won't admit that, then you gotta take her as being much more hawkish than she came off.

What's more, the very fact that she would criticize his position is in and of itself a hawkish move. The only people it seems to have pleased are the National Review types.

The venue is a mute point as long as questions are selected by those in control of the so-called debates.  
Sooner or later, Hillary will have to admit - though it's obvious she doesn't want to say so - that she's the best man for the job, even though she's a woman.

When she can say that, she'll be ready, and so will America be - because it's a man-sized job, not a man's job!


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