ABOUT FIRST READ

First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Rudy’s house call

Posted: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 12:45 PM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under:

From NBC’s Domenico Montanaro and Carrie Dann
Giuliani

laid out few specifics on an actual health care plan today in New Hampshire, and instead took shots at Democrats and Michael Moore on the topic.
 
"The American way is not single-payer, government-controlled anything," Giuliani said. "That’s a European way of doing something. That’s a, frankly, a Socialist way of doing something."
 
"If single-payer systems are cracking all over the world, why would we do it in America. Michael Moore wants to take you to Cuba for your health care. Anyone want to sign up? I didn’t think so. Maybe the Democrats will sign up."
 
He cited long wait times in Canada for even MRIs and took issue with the potential cost of Democratic-proposed universal health care plans. When pressed by a questioner on what steps he would take on health care, Giuliani said, first, he would "bring down the cost, so other people can afford it." Then, "give people a tax advantage to go buy individual insurance."

"We’ve got to bring down the cost of health care, and the government can’t possibly cover everybody," Giuliani said. "If the government covers everybody, the government will literally go bankrupt."

After the speech, Giuliani continued his criticism of European health care models. But he didn't pass up the chance for a shout out to one of his favorite European leaders -- French president Nicholas Sarkozy, a pro-America conservative who was touted by the New York Post as "a French Rudy" shortly after his recent election.

"I have this feeling that Sarkozy is on an airplane headed to the United States," the ex-New York mayor jokingly told reporters. "And Hillary, and Barack, and John Edwards are on an airplane headed to France!"
 
Some points of note:
--The Giuliani campaign still doesn’t quite get TV. During the first half of his speech, Giuliani continually wandered away from the microphone at the podium, making him inaudible to viewers. This criticism may seem trite -- and doesn’t “speak to the issues” -- but not getting this right undermines a campaign’s ability to get the candidate’s message out, and it makes the candidate look like an amateur. During the second half of his speech, Giuliani had the microphone in his hand, but for someone who is seemingly more comfortable at working a room and using his hands, shouldn’t he have a wireless?
 
--He was introduced with a country song.
 
--He thought Ronald Reagan was the most effective leader since Franklin Roosevelt.
 
--He said he can solve global warming in five to 15 years and would end illegal immigration in a year and a half to three years. “I give ourselves 18 month to three years to accomplish it,” he said.

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Comments

You folks have no clue about Canadian health care. We pay taxes and we have a system that basically works for everyone.

If it weren't for the US sucking out our doctors for higher pay, the system would be able to sustain itself, and doctors would make a decent living....albeit not a beverlewy hills type of living.

Let me tell you something, if you are a child with a serious health issue, you are taken care of right away, ditto if you are middle aged or elderly.

If you are a reasonably healthy person and you cut your finger dicing onions, you will wait about 8 hours in an emergency room waiting to get stitched up. Note, you will also wait longer if ambulances arrive with people who are in bad shape.

Is it the best system, nope, does it try and give everyone a chance at some help, Yes.

We are a small country and it takes us some time to get up to speed, but as a Canadian , you are covered from coast to coast , 7 days a week, 24 hours a day.

Expect to wait if its not life threatening.

As for Giuli for president, you have got to be kidding me. This guy is worse then Bush , he is ego driven and couldn't give a rats ass about anyone but himself. Prior to 911, his popularity was at 18%.
Obviously, Rudy's health care plan must really take care of him.  When's the last time he had to wait for an MRI or any other procedure?  Most of us who have health insurance through our employers, have to wait for hours for an MRI (just like the Canadians)even though we have a specific appointment time, have to wait weeks just to see our physicians, spend hours and hours waiting in emergency rooms for emergencies because the poor use emergency rooms as their primary care physicians (as Bush recently suggested they have that option when he threatened to veto the children's health care plan). Hey, Rudy, what luxurious bubble do you live in?  You moron.
In 1998 or so I heard George W. Bush say equally stupid things and there was some talk then about there being 'interest' among those in his Daddy's party about looking to George Jr. as a candidate for President. I thought, surely, the American people aren't that stupid.  Now, I see Guilliani is leading in the polls and Fred Thompson is right behind.  Seems America gets what American deserves.  
Rudy (there is a terrorist hiding under every bed) Giuliani seems to have an answers for all problems that satisfies most wealthy Americans.
A poor country like Cuba cannot go bankrupt by providing free health care not only to its citizens but to other parts of the world too, despite sanctions. Mr. Giuliani, you underestimated the resources and capability of your own country.
Rudy might be considered an adequate Mayor but there does seem to be considerable disagreement about that.

Sometimes I'm less than impressed with Rudy and most of the time overwhelmingly so.  How is it possible that this cretin is at the top of the Polls?

It must have something to do with the quality of the Republicians questioned but I don't know what it could be, after all, they voted for Bush didn't they?
Bruce,

Do upload a video to YouTube, cc it to MichaelMoore.com and ask of the presidential candidates, "What should I do?" While I haven't been in you shoes, I have screwed. I wish you more than the best - I wish you good fortune.
He says -- first thing: "bring down the cost"

Who wants to bet that he plans to do that by prohibiting malpractice suits?  
If it weren't for 9/11 Ghouliani would more than likely be in prison by now
I'm sick of the right wing lies about Canadian health care. It ain't perfect - but on a normal basis WE DON'T WAIT to see a doctor - and certanly not in an emergency.
All Americans deserve a decent single payer health system - and it is only stupid ideology about "the horror of socialism" that is preventing it.
Giliani is a liar and a fear monger.
Want to improve the current state of health care?

Force congress to pay into the same HMO mess that we are forced to pay in to. Strip congress of their taxpayer funded health insurance and force them to PAY.

Things would improve in a fortnight. I guarantee it
If you are one of the 35-45 million people that can't afford healthcare and a minor ailment turns serious due to lack of treatment (i.e. a cold turns into pneumonia) the only options are death or go to the (taxpayer supported) emergency room at the county hospital which is the most expensive care possible. All people lucky enough to have insurance or local property owners pay for this extraordinarily high medical care.  Either by higher insurance rates or higher property taxes.  Why doesn't it occur to those opposing some sort of "universal" healthcare that we pay for those who seek that care and it seems that paying for a $25 office visit and a $25 prescription is far cheaper, and much better for the patient, than paying for a $5,000-$10,000 emergency room visit?  Sometimes I think we must be the stupidest society to ever inhabit the planet!
Rudy loves the profits of ill-health insurance company's more than the wellness of American children. Rudy loves the State of Isreal more than the 51 States of our Union, Rudy loves bankrupting the Nation with endless war more than teaching the Nation endless non-voilent disciplines. And Rudy expects me to love him more than the health and humanity of this great Nation. Sorry Rudy, i am a Democrat who might end up voting for a Republican...Ron Paul. One last question for Rudy, on 911, we were both in NYC, i counted two planes, but three buildings fell...the math never added up...who benefitted? Who suffered more? the children of Halliburton, Dick Cheney, Exxon, or the children of iraq and of American soldiers never to return?
Long wait times? That's relative. I'm Canadian, and my back spasmed when I was out with friends, resulting in pain severe enough that I blacked out. An ambulance was called, and I was sent to emergency. I had bloodwork, urine tests, a CAT scan (apparently I shook for a bit when I passed out, and they wanted to make sure I didn't have any brain injury), and two litres of saline in the 12 hours I was there. I also had appointments with my doctor and a follow-up I made on my own with a specialist within two weeks. Because all tests were normal (X-rays just showed some minor disc degeneration, which everybody gets as they age) my follow-up MRI was scheduled several months after. However, that MRI is precautionary only  - strictly speaking, I don't *need* to have it done, as all other tests - plus a complete lack of any symptoms on my part - show things are fine. The net cost to me for all of this: $45 for the ambulance ride, as the doctor deemed it was necessary, but not really an emergency. I paid nothing for the X-rays, nothing for the CAT scan, nothing for the MRI, nothing for my time in the hospital, nothing for my consultation with the specialist or my visit to the doctor.

Now, when my Dad was diagnosed with cardiac lymphoma, he was immediately flown to Toronto for treatment, he was in the hospital for weeks, had MRIs and CAT scans up the wazoo, serious chemotherapy, and when he got back home, follow-up radiation in my hometown. He never had to wait for anything. Again, net cost to our family: $0.

It was the same when my Mom had her strokes - and her open-heart surgery (two operations - mitral valve repair 22 years ago, mitral valve replacement and triple-bypass three years ago). You get care based on your needs, and those most in need don't wait up here.

When you're worried about your health, the last thing you should have to be concerned with is how to pay for your care. Believing that health is a *commodity* and treating it as such, is just obscene.
net cost to me for all of this: $45

Again, net cost to our family: $0.

-------------------

Man, it is so cool to get stuff for free.

What's the tax rate up there again?  Looking, here it is, top marginal rate for Canadians is 45-54%, depending on the province, and those rates start for people earning $60000 and above.

Free indeed.

Net cost to your family - a lot of money.
<"Rudy is a dishonest greaseball." F from St. Louis> <"Most of the NYs finest cops and firemen hate Rudy. So, I agree with F StLouis. He's a lying greaseball." bb>
I am appalled at such harsh language directed at Mr. Gulianni.... However, I am impressed that you were able to avoid the language that truly describes this despicable man.
I got my first taste of his deceitful nature during the 1st Kerry/Bush debate. He "quoted" Kerry frequently during his televised interview with Jon Stewart. Everyone in the room looked on in shock and disbelief as Gulianni repeated one lie after another. We all applauded when Stewart asked him, "Did you watch the same debate as we did?" To our dismay, the question didn't even phase Gulianni... he went on to repeat fabricated "quotes" from Kerry. Don't believe me? Ask Jon Stewart! He was there! I bet there is a video clip in some archive somewhere!
Bottom line.... if you vote for Gulianni you will voting for a "lying greaseball!!"
ELZ: "Believing that health is a *commodity* and treating it as such, is just obscene."

This is so true.  It is also true for food, shelter and clothing.  It is our right to demand that the government provide these essentials to us free of charge.  All our homes should be the same. Do you realize how much money we could save by not having custom homes?  We should have a government provided menu of what all of us should eat each week, and we should all wear the same clothing, preferably something gray.  It would be a national uniform to show our solidarity for our leaders.
Here's what most Americans don't seem to understand about paying for universal health care: It is totally affordable, because you're currently paying much more per capita for so-called health "insurance" than universal care would cost. The difference is that you're paying through insurance plans that cop out instead of providing care. And 1/7 of you have no coverage at all. You're being manipulated into fearing universal health care by monied interests that care only for the bottom line. They're scared of being squeezed out of their current position of collecting premiums without providing service. Wake up, Americans, and start owning your health care system collectively instead of letting greedy companies decide whether you live or die. What happened to the America that cared for the little guy?
I just read someone here pays $800 a month for insurance. I live in Switzerland, and we have the most expensive healthcare system of the world - right behind the USA. I'm paying $200 a month for insurance, and by law every incurance must take you as its customer. No pre-existing conditions are debated. The insurance starts covering my healthcare costs when they top $416 per year (in other, cheaper insurance plans coverage starts at $2000/year). Insurance is compulsory for every inhabitant, and if somebody is too poor (earning less than $816 plus rent of a simple apartment every month, as a rule of thumb), welfare pays your living costs, insurance and deductibles. I really pity you. And I got a doctor appointment for a small, benign neck tumour in three days. (I have to admit that I save insurance premiums by having a gatekeeping doctor). Fight bravely, and please let NOBODY call universal/single-payer healthcare derogatory names. Affordable healthcare is a human right.
I have evangelical right wing-nut relatives who adore George Bush. When I asked who they were supporting I was shocked to hear it was Guiliani instead of the more devote born-again Christian candidates. Now I understand -- it is because he will be most like George Bush and I don't think there will be any -lite needed.
ELZ - good points...thank you.  Rudy : why is he up in the polls?  I can not figure this out.  Perhaps it shows how stupid republican voters are.  Oh sorry, we already been shown how dumb they are....can you say GWB?  What a bunch of morons.
Hi Joe PeShote, Springfield IL

My Dad made $50,000 per annum before he retired, and he was the sole breadwinner, supporting Mom and us three kids. As I currently make slightly more than that, I can tell you my taxes are a little more $9000 or so per year (that's federal and provincial income tax together).

Do a little math, and work out what my Dad and Mom's hospital bills in the US would have been. I'm betting it would be a hell of a lot more than the accumulated quarter million or so paid in taxes over 30 years of work. And those taxes are for *everything*, not just health care.

If there's a better reason to pay taxes than ensuring you get medical care when you're desperately ill, tell me what it is...
I'm also Canadian and I want to comment on the previous Canadians' post. It reads, "Believing that Health is a commodity... is just obscene." I tend to agree with that, but I would put it slightly differently: The unregulated market place should be allowed to thrive, but let it thrive in industries other than Health care. Citizens who want to exercise their right to earn as much money as possible anyway they want should invent new markets or go into existing markets (baked goods, golf courses, cansino gambling, space tourism, automotive manufacturing) but I suppose the notion that nobody should expect to be able to operate an unrestricted for-profit commercial enterprise in the Healthcare industry. I have every respect for capitalism. But there are some industries where capitalism must be under strict contol. A single-payer health care system (where a democratic government oversees the payer -- forget about Cuba) is a great way to keep capitalism in check in the Healthcare industry.

Let the Free Market flourish! Without restriction! ...in everything but Health Care.

One more point: in Canada we have many payers: about 10. Every province handles it separately. The USA should do likewise. DO NOT allow teh FEDERAL government to run the whole show. It must be a distributed system. That way, when New York gets it wrong and Alabama is clearly doing a better job, voters in New York find out and let their representatives know that they want their system to be improved. That is how it works here. There IS Competition. We in Ontario know that waiting times in Quebec are (for example) shorter. So Ontario voters will say, "If they can do better, so can we!" and then things happen (and Ontario overtakes Quebec, then it's is the Quebeckers' turn to take notice). In other words: when done right, socialized Healthcare does NOT mean the end of competition in the industry. Hospitals and even physicians also "compete" against one another in this regard.

To Jen Malady:

What you have written is known as a straw man argument Jen - that would be when you attack a position other than what your opponent actually represents, because you are unable to attack his/her position directly. It's a very common logical flaw (along with the ad hominem argument, the false appeal to authority, the false appeal to the majority, the false appeal to the select few, etc.).

Unless of course, you actually posit those beliefs. In which case, I have to respectfully disagree, as I've always felt that individual expression is part of what makes life worth living - and so much the better if that is a healthy life.
RUDE-Y!
WE WANT HEALTH CARE
WHEN DO WE WANT IT?
NOW!
WE WANT HEALTH CARE...NOT 'HOT AIR!
A number of points:
1) Giuliani is just following the Republican policy -- which works all too often -- of winning by having a smart mouth.  Let's not buy it this time.
2) I was hospitalized with a blood disease in Japan last year.  While I was there, the hospital case worker came unsolicited to my bedside to tell me about the benefits and services I was entitled to under the Japanese national health insurance system, which are considerable.  Would this have happened in the US?  I doubt it.  Oh, and Japan could in no way be called a socialist country.
3)  If we want to get out from under the insurance companies and rework health care in the US, waiting for Congress to legislate it will not do the job.  Congress has a profit motive, too.  What we need to do is STOP GIVING THE INSURANCE COMPANIES MONEY.  Cancel your health insurance policies, now.  Yes, it is risky -- but it's not very different from going on strike.  Thinking of it that way might help.  When the insurance companies lose their money, they will lose their clout, and then we can get down to business.
Mr. Giuliani favors individual health care coverage because that represents a windfall of money for the insurance industry.  I wonder, though, why I should have to pay a monthly premium, plus out of pocket for prescriptions, emergency room care, plus the cost of anything my insurance company chooses not to cover.  It seems to me that, while no health care system is actually free, we should pay taxes so that the government can pay the bills for us.  The Republican argument is that the government will be dictating medical care.  There's not one shred of evidence that this is so.  What the government will be doing, however, under full coverage for all citizens is just paying the bills.  But of course we have to watch out for the Republican's favorite Boogeyman -- the dreaded Socialism.
As Al Gore might wonder, what has happened to American democracy when this kind of unfounded rhetoric still gets supporters?
RUDE-Y!
WE WANT HEALTH CARE
WHEN DO WE WANT IT?
NOW!


Fine.  How you going to pay for it?
ELZ

You have obviously bought into the hype of universal health care, and it works for you in Canada at some level.  I noticed your response to Joe that your marginal tax rate is 20%.  Of course, you don't speak to the fact that people making over 60K pay more then half of their hard earned cash to the government.  Somehow you have made this out to be fair.  Good thing you don't need to fund a military, just think of the tax rate if you did.

And, what great successes has Canada had in advancing medical science?  I'm sure they have one or two success cases over the many years, but all in all, we know where the majority of research is done in the world. Canada spends money on the care of their people, and little to none of it goes to research. Canada has piggy-backed on the successes of research done in the US for many, many years.  The same is true for their military.  Just like with health care research, Canada spends very little of their money on a military because they know the US is there if needed.

So, please, stop lecturing the US on how wonderful the Canadian health care system is.  There are just as many holes in it, and probably more, then the US system.  All those great treatments and medicines your mom and dad use come from somewhere, right?  Who do you think paid for them to be developed?  What health care system provided the infrastructure for their development?

Oh, and you're welcome.
In Canada (I'm an American living in Canada), medial care is administered in precisely the way it would be administered at a disater site--triage.  If you really need a treatment NOW because it will save your life NOW, you get it NOW.  If you need a treatment that can wait because your ailment won't kill you, you'll probably have to wait a while because there are other people who need it more than you do.  And if you think it would be great to get a full-body scan to find out if there MIGHT be something wrong with you, go to the U.S. and pay for it--they'll be glad to take your money.  In Canada, doctors, not insurance companies, decide whether or not your condition can wait for treatment.

Yes, there are waits for treatments that aren't urgent, but the American people need to hear the truth about medical care in Canada.  It's available to everyone, and when you receive it, there's no bill to pay (no co-payment, no nothing!!).  There's the truth, Rudy.  Try asking your audience if they'd like the same level of care that Canadians have.  Folks, this ain't socialism.  It's just good sense, and Rudy (and most of the other potential candidates) have none.
Canadains would be a third-world country if they had to pay for a military and all of their medical research costs.

And Tom, full body scans are only done if necessary, which is extremely rare.  Do you realize the amount of rads you are exposed to for such a procedure?  No one does those things without first considering if there is a need.

Canada has elected to tax the living breath out of its citizens to pay for its health care.  They can socialize that segment of their system because they have next to zero costs for either research in medicine, or for a military.

There is a bill for health care in Canada1, and the Canadians pay it every month of their working lives.
I wish everyone would see SiCKO first and compare their own thoughts to what Rudy says.  Any REAL American would see how SICK our system is, and how we need to take back health insurance/financing from corporations.  They can't be trusted anymore.  

And no, if Rudy was smart, he wouldn't insult the intelligence of Americans by saying Moore wants us to go to Cuba to get better.  Cuba showed how they took better care of the 9/11 rescuers than Rudy did!!!
To Jen Malady:
I find it unfortunate that you feel the need to address others here in such a condescending and hateful tone.

Also, I think you would do well to visit www.pnhp.org (Physicians for a National Health Plan)and read through their FAQ section. They make it clear that universal health care for ALL in the US, at current levels of care, could be paid for with a 2% tax on employees and 3% tax on employers. For the vast majority of workers and businesses, this is less than they are paying now, when you combine paycheck withholdings, co-pays, deductibles, prescription costs, etc. Take a look at what you spend for health care vs. 2% of your earnings. Then consider that, even if that 2% figure is higher, you'd be helping to care for every man, woman & child in the country. And, that YOUR care would be guaranteed when the time comes. Can't we find it in our collective heart to band together as a society and take care of each other?

Also, you attack Canada for high taxes, and question their ability to fund research and a military. Well, take a look at our deficit. WE can't afford our military either. China, and other countries to whom we owe money, pay for our military. Plus, Canada doesn't feel the need invade foreign countries and kill the inhabitants. We do accomplish a great deal of medical research in this country, but we are not alone. Plenty of great advancements come from other countries. The rest of the world is not completely populated by ignorant souls bereft of intelligence, as you seem to think.

One last thing, please don't imply that providing for the well-being of your friends and neighbors would be a slippery slope leading to us becoming North Korea. Trying to be as kind as I can, I must say that doing so makes you look foolish.
What blows my mind is that when politicians, like Rudy, start comparing the US health Care system to Canada's they treat it like a competition rather than an example of how it Universal HealthCare works. Yes we have wait times in Canada, but the wait is dependant on how sick you are NOT how much cash you have in your pocket or what your insurance company says! The bottom line is that even with the hiccups, a Universal Health Care system can work and is cost effective - so why not take the best of all examples, improve of the weaknesses and ensure that NO AMERICAN has to go Bankrupt for Health Care!!
Jen Malady - HOW WRONG YOU ARE!!

First of all - Our military is in Afghanistan going after the Monster who attacked the US on 9/11 - something George W didn't label as a matter of importance. The rest are in Peace keeping missions helping those countries who can't help themselves

As far as medical research, Canada is the leader in medical research, specifically in Cancer and MS. Where are you learning that we don't invest in medical research - That's ludicrous!

What we pay monthly in medical (for myself is $27 a month) YOU pay in Grossly over priced prescriptions, and Insurance companies who do not fight for your health.

And yes we do get taxed a little more - but not all of it goes towards Medical - portions also goes towards Education - something you are obviously in dire need of!
Once elected Rudy should privatize firestations, so they need to check if people paid their bill or let them burn to a crisp.
Jen: "Canadains would be a third-world country if they had to pay for a military and all of their medical research costs."

I guess the choice then is: Either you're a socially underdeveloped country with a huge military, or a militarily underdeveloped country with a developed social system.
An economic think-tank recently did a study analyzing taxes in the US, factoring in the cost of health care (I read this on a mainstream news site about four months ago, but sadly cannot remember the name of the think tank or of the site), and they came up the the effective income tax rate US citizens are really paying.

Are you sitting down?

Their results were that all Americans, at every income level, are paying a flat income tax rate of 40%.

Admittedly, this is only one study and consequently, you cannot take those results as gospel - not without at least a few other similar studies from several other groups to compare results. But it bears investigation, don't you think?
http://austin.craigslist.org/rnr/363571983.html

This case is real...You don't want to be very smart to understand if you spend billions and billions in a military society you don't have money to covert 100% population. The question is very simple, European Union, similar quantity of people...ALL COVERT UNDER UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE...This a case in Spain, in the rest of european countries is similar. I can understand how simple propaganda can cheat Americans. I'm Spaniard living in US (my wife is American) and for this issue our stay here will be no permament...I didn't know these problems here...I don't wanna be offensive but US society talk about commom problems in 3rd world, it's weird...
Republicans sure don't need to get in. They do not care about Health Care and never did. They never talk about it unless they have to. You never hear them bring it up.  They will lie to get in and nothing will ever get done. The only way anything will get done if Democrates get the presidency and both houses of congress.
He is not president material.
My.

Where to start?

"Canada doesn't have the need for a military."

Very true.  They depend on the US military first and foremost.  The US should send Canada a bill for the service.


"Our military is in Afghanistan going after the Monster who attacked the US on 9/11 "

And how are the 6 of them doing?  They find Osama yet?  Just kidding, the actual number is 2500.  God speed to all of them.


"[PNHP] makes it clear that universal health care for ALL in the US, at current levels of care, could be paid for with a 2% tax on employees and 3% tax on employers."

PNHP is universal health care advocacy group (and lets be frank, that is what this organization is) will low-ball the cost numbers.  As a fudge factor, always double, most of the time triple, and is this case, at least quadruple the numbers.


"Also, you attack Canada for high taxes, and question their ability to fund research and a military. Well, take a look at our deficit. WE can't afford our military either."

No kidding brother.  Your free health care system has bankrupt your county.

"One last thing, please don't imply that providing for the well-being of your friends and neighbors would be a slippery slope leading to us becoming North Korea."

Don't recall doing that, but if the US moves to universal health care, it will be a slippery slope for us to become . . . Canada.

"We do accomplish a great deal of medical research in this country, but we are not alone. "

No kidding you are not alone.  All the procedures and medications used to help ELZ's parents with their heart problems were developed in the US.  The US leads the world in all research and development for medicine, more then all other countries combined.  The current system in the US fosters this research.  To say that universal health care would not significantly reduce that research is pure fallacy.


"I guess the choice then is: Either you're a socially underdeveloped country with a huge military, or a militarily underdeveloped country with a developed social system."

Revisit your social system every 5 and 10 years.  It  will continue collapse under its own weight. How socially progressive is that?  The US has its own problems looming for its social security system.  To throw universal health care on top of that problem would bring the US to its economic knees, just like Canada is currently on its knees because of universal health care.
Hi again Jen:

You might want to check your figures. In fact, in Canada, we pay between 3% to 5% more tax than Americans - except our wealthiest who pay 0.2% *LESS* than Americans.

The source for this data is www.oecd.org/ctp/taxdatabase, so you can look up the relative figures for yourself.

So, we pay about the same - except our health care is already covered.

My mistake - the actual figures are we pay 2% to 3% more tax, except our wealthiest, who pay 0.2% less (same source of data - my faulty transcription is to blame).

Apologies for the confusion.

Canadian income taxes, both federal and proveniences together, are about 45% of income for those earning more then $60,000.  

Sales taxes range from 6% for Alberta to 16.5% in Prince Edward Island (Wow!)  Average is around 15% for all of Canada.   Wow again!!  So on a $60,000 salary, $27,000 goes to income tax.  If you spend $15,000 on taxable items, you pay an additional $2,250 in taxes.  And if you live in Ontario, another $300-$900 for health care costs.  You are well over 50%  without getting to your property tax, which can be speculated to be $4000 a year.  So all in all, on $60,000, you'll pay about $34,000 in taxes.  56%.  On a $60,000 income.  A liberal Democrats dream in the US.

As stated, Ontario adds another $900 health care tax on people making "high income" which I guess means over the magic $60000 income level.

No inheritance tax though.  Cool.  No one probably has any savings anyway.

Employers are not off the hook, they pay 1.95% tax on employers for the Employer Health Tax, plus about 12% of their revenue goes to Canadian Pension plan and Employee Insurance.  Kind of like the US's social security system and unemployment fund I guess.  So if you have your own business, in addition to paying 56% of your income, you have to pay an additional 14% for insurance and social security.

That is quite a pinch.

At least health care is free.





You're obviously not checking the figures from the OECD - take a look at the total tax wedge numbers, my friend. We're almost at parity with you when it comes to income tax - yet our taxes cover our health care, while yours don't.

No one ever said healthcare in Canada (or the UK, etc.) was free, but it comes a hell of a lot cheaper - and with the doctor and patient deciding on the treatment, instead of a middleman. But that's economics - goods are almost always cheaper when you buy direct.
America's mayor has no conception of what it is like to have to deal with the layers of insurance companies, doctors who have to cowtow to the HMOs, trying to get an actual person on the phone to talk with and trying to schedule an appointment during the 9-5 week. If I could have an checkup whenever I wanted and be able to speak to my doctor for more than 3 minutes I would think the U.S system of is peachy. Rudy should read How Doctors Think by Jerome Groopman to get an understanding of how rushed and distracted doctors have become. His system has turned them into administrative assistants and form pushers. As usual he falls back on the boogeyman hoodoo of calling other  forms of health care around the world as socialistic. Just what we need, the old communist threat, now in the form of the health care
Thank you all for the reply's:

Thanks to Michael Moore for this graphic information without the Special Effects of Tyranny.

I'm from New England--Holyoke, Massachusetts to be exact and a citizen with an endless will to try & prove that the New Health Care Law here in Massachusetts is Unconstitutional. It is unconstitutional because it is not a Constitutional Right to force any citizen into any contract for services without voluntary will, consent, signature or authorization. It's a lonely fight and harder to see even friends of mine that have turned their backs on my statements.

The Massachusetts Constitution Preamble clearly states "NATURAL RIGHTS" not CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS, so how could this be legal or Constitutional to force me and all my fellow Massachusetts citizens into a force contract? (By the way, read articles 7 & 24 and see the proof, it isn't long at all). I'm fighting this till the end. What's more, this has to be the only that I know (so pardon my ignorance if I am wrong) where you pay & pay & pay & pay fines until you are forced by Law to buy Health Insurance yet never go to jail for it. So, wouldn't it make you a Felon if you oppose the New Massachusetts Health Care Law since if you do not declare to the Department of Revenue proof of Insurance?

Read my Research Paper in PDF Format and you tell me:
http://shockphobia.com/ResearchPapers/NaturalConstitutionalRight.pdf

PS; I have no respect for Gulliani anymore the information I just read. Tell me this is not about PERSONAL GAIN and I wont shave for the rest of my LIFE.

This entire New Health Care Law in Massachusetts and the means to pass it to the Country is all about PROFIT. We are talking Health Care People, Not Health Insurance. So, Why the emphasis on forcing the people to buy Health Care since it's better Health Care we need?

Too many years of oppression & I'm ready to fight for my Natural & Constitutional Rights. No one citizen in America is entitled by Law to Buy anything without voluntary will. Does anyone even care about the U.S. Constitution?

Sorry for the rant but I haven't slept in days trying to bolster my facts. Somewhere in his Grave (RIP) Thomas Jefferson has got to be PISSED!!!
Due to pre-existing conditions I haven't had Health insurance since Traveler's Ins. and Mutual of Omaha cancelled my policy block in 2003. I have six screws in my cervical spine and had a positive MS diagnosis. There simply is no healthcare for me to be had in America. PERIOD! The insurance industry makes sure of that!

A few points of interest in contrast to the vitriol of malady, who I might add would certainly win hands down in the Brainwashed American poster child contest.

I typed in Heart disease + world leader into Google and lo and behold look what came up.

Stem Cell Licensing Deal Positions Toronto As World Leader In Technology

Main Category: Stem Cell Research News
Article Date: 26 Jun 2007 - 6:00 PDT
A $20-million deal has been announced to license Canadian stem cell technology in the U.S. This underscores the Toronto area's global leadership in stem cell research.

02 October 2006

University in major collaboration to treat heart disease

The University of Sheffield´s Centre for Stem Cell Biology (CSCB) and the Cardiovascular Research Unit (CVRU) have joined forces with Axordia Ltd and Lombard Medical Technologies PLC to develop a next generation of treatment for coronary artery disease.

NHS Still World Leader In Care For Heart Attack Patients, UK
Main Category: Cardiovascular / Cardiology News
Article Date: 30 Jun 2006 - 0:00 PDT

The fifth public report from MINAP (the Myocardial Infarction National Audit Project), published today, shows that patients with heart attack are being treated at a level of excellence that is unsurpassed anywhere in Europe or beyond. In particular more patients received thrombolytic treatment within 60 minutes of calling for help than last year. This saves lives and contributes to the overall decrease in deaths from heart disease. This is a remarkable achievement by the NHS.

What is remarkable about Canada and the rest of the developed world's health care system is that the systems are based on health care as a human right and not a commodity.  The great majority of the American people are brainwashed and have allowed Big Pharma and the Insurance Industry to highjack our politicians and our very lives. These corporations own the politicians who keep them in power. They decide who lives and who dies.
Truly I haven't heard of any other developed nation whose citizens must decide whether they can eat or take their medication. Whose senior citizens have ALL their assets taken from them before they are covered for nursing care. All your lifes work, savings, home, businesses, cannot be left to your children. It must be sold to pay for your health care. It's called Estate Recovery.
Seniors working in Wal Marts and elsewhere make a paltry minimum wage because they cannot retire, until they die of course.
Citizens with three jobs because the wages have been driven down so low, they need three to survive.
American citizens losing homes, businesses, and all assets they may have worked for over a lifetime due to medical bills. The US government has pretty much closed the loophole for medical bankruptcies.
America's competitiveness with developed nations that have National healthcare puts us at a disadvantage.

The facts remain:
1. No matter how much research is done in the US, it doesn't do much good when you cannot have it save your life because you cannot afford it.
2. If you think that the US government can see the numbers on a license plate from outer space and they cannot find Osama, don't blame the Canadians. They're not the ones who flew the Bin Ladens out of America before they could get questioned after 9/11. Nor are they the ones who trained and financed him in the first place.
3. Actually Canadians are healthier: "By all measures, Canadians' health is better," Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions professor Barbara Starfield told the Globe. Canadians, she said, "do better on a whole variety of health outcomes." Among them: life expectancy at every age, infant mortality, maternal mortality.
4. The most striking facts revealed is that the working Americans except for the top 1% have steadily lost money not only in their hourly wage, taking into consideration the cost of living, but have lost any benefit of the New World Economy tax cuts which only granted favors to the very wealthiest in the great nation.
WE ARE on our economic knees, not because we have Universal Health Care, but because we are lining the pockets of insatiable Big Pharma, the insurance industry, fighting wars in two nations, paying enormous administrative health care costs, giving tax breaks to the wealthiest 1% of America, outsourcing our American worker jobs, and encouraging and paying for a rampant birth rate and uncontrolled population within our own borders.

America is the only developed nation that does not have a National Health Care coverage. I know that whoever I vote for will be a co sponsor of HR 676.



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