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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Iraq

Posted: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 9:00 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: ,

The Los Angeles Times: “Intent on demonstrating progress in Iraq, the top U.S. general there is expected by Bush administration officials to recommend removing American troops soon from several areas where commanders believe security has improved, possibly including Al Anbar province. According to the officials, Gen. David H. Petraeus is expected to propose the partial pullback in his September status report to Congress, when both the war's critics and supporters plan to reassess its course. Administration officials who support the current troop levels hope Petraeus' recommendations will persuade Congress to reject pressure for a major U.S. withdrawal.”

In an interview with the Politico, Rove delivers a parting shot at the Democrats on national security. “[A]n unrepentant Karl Rove said Tuesday that Democrats are headed toward repeating Vietnam-era mistakes that gave Republicans the upper hand on national defense for 30 years. ‘The Democrats have a problem with national security,’ the White House senior adviser said. ‘Too many Democratic leaders are opposing policies that will lead to America’s success in the Middle East.’” 
 
More: “In an hour-long interview near the Crawford White House, Rove said congressional efforts to oppose President Bush’s ‘surge’ strategy have clear echoes of Democrats in the early 1970s who cut off support for U.S. military involvement in Vietnam, a war that was even more unpopular than Iraq. In Rove’s view, the nation wound up with its prestige diminished and its adversaries emboldened.”

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Karl Rove forgets one thing and that is the American people have learned from Vietnam and will not stand by and watch this mess for much longer and the Republicans who still have to run for re-election know it.  It's not just Democrats that will be calling for an end to this war in september.  Karl, I know you think you are still relavant, but you're just a criminal spouting off to get attention.  
Tim,
Amen. We're all a little smarter than we were in the 60's, at least one can hope! The ones who did not learn the lessons of the 60's are the current criminals in the White House, who know that war is money, and the heck with civilian casualties, military casualties, the Constitution, and a total loss of respect home and abroad. Rove needs to go to prison-maybe he'll feel secure there (at least once his cronies show up as well.)
My fear is Cindy Sheehan's fear: Bush(read Rove)is planning an attack here at home that will allow him to declare the marshall law he gave himself power to do. Then he can suspend elections, thus keeping this criminal administration in Washington. Far feteched? Not with this gang.
War with Iran; cancel 08 elections; martial law.

Not surprised if all that happens. PNAC
Rove isn't even aware that our entry into Iraq accomplished "diminshing our prestige and emboldening our adversaries" more than anything else.  It showed the world how incompetent our President is and created a breeding ground for terrorists.  
Uh Sue, marshall law?????

you mean martial law?

You libs really need to put down the bong pipes and LSD.  Cindy Sheenan needs to prepare for her way against Nancy Pelosi more then worrying about Cindy Sheenan.  She must be the only candidate I've ever heard of to announce her candidacy and then go get arrested 5 minutes later LOL. If people like Cindy Sheenan are seriously thinking of running for congress, her actions and attitudes will make the American people think twice about backing an extreme left wing candidate,
That's rich!  In the Seventies, Rove was working for Nixon, who won the Presidency, ostensibly on getting us out of Vietnam, but really to placate the Communist Chinese, his new buddies.  Thus began the slippery slope of putting us in debt to Mao Tse-Tung.  A plan I call Maoism/Nixonism, part of which was the 'Vietnamization' of America. Thanks Carl. Enjoy your new free Chinese Chrysler.
Unboubtly the American people and the Congress of the United States didn't learn sh-- from Vietnam, just remember if it weren't for the advancements in modern medicine we would be seeing 30,000 dead instead of 3700 dead and 25,000 maimed and mutilated.  Also if Congress had learned from Vietnam they would have never, never have given the President and the "Dogs of War" total freedom to destroy a country, America's reputation, and create a sink hole we are finding more and more difficult to escape from everyday. They were all so anxious to kill someone, it didn't matter who, as long as they were "suspected and pointed out" by this Administration and the CIA.  Here's a little tid bit to go along with the suspicion. "The designation of the Revolutionary Guard will be made under Executive Order 13224, which President Bush signed two weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks
to obstruct terrorist funding. It authorizes the United States to identify individuals, businesses, charities and extremist groups engaged in terrorist
activities. The Revolutionary Guard would be the first national military branch included on the list, U.S. officials said -- a highly unusual move because
it is part of a government, rather than a typical non-state terrorist organization.
Sue Midland

All of us knew what you meant, exept Jerry. I read here a lot, but hardly ever post. Personal attacts is the only thing Jerry is good at. Everthing else he says is either wrong or makes no since.
Neo-cons today Jerry were the so-called hippies that did way too much acid in the 60's ie Rove who dropped out of college inorder to commit backstapping, unethical, and most likely illegal stuff with Nixonian henchmen (Sagretti). I guess that is where the ethical moral family values came from?  
What should we have learned from nam Karl how to dodge the draft? Viet Nam was started by Eisenhower(look it up) and lost by Richard Nixon. as I recall all the dominoes would fall down. The only country that went communist was South Viet Nam. Nixon talked about bombing the student demonstrators and Schleshinger (Secretary of Defense) passed the word to the pentagon brass not to act on any order without first consulting him. Meanwhile Boy George was keeping the coast of texas safe from communists.
Rove, don't be ignorant all your life. Go to college, get a degree and education, especially in American History. Do your thesis on Viet Nam.
Hey Jerry - "more then"?- it's "more than" - a totally different meaning.  Clean up your own act before criticizing others.
I think it's really funny to hear these Republican apologists now saying that, and I'm quoting, "The Surge is working.  It's now a winnable war!".

First of all, not only is it not a "winnable" war.  It's not even a war.  It's a babysitting-law enforcement action that our soldiers are ill-equipped to manage.

Secondly, one would expect the Surge to generate some positive results, if for no other reason, than we have temporarily changed the dynamic of the conflict by increasing the number of our forces and positioning them differently.  These short-term gains (i.e. reduction in the number of U.S. casualties in a 30 day period) are temporary positives.

What folks should be asking Gen. Petreus when he gives his rosy assessment of the Iraq situation is, "What are you doing to help the long term prospects for security in Iraq?"  And, "Have you made progress towards the goal of reducing the number of U.S. troops in Iraq?"

Those are the two key questions.  Any talk of how well we're doing in the short term, shouldn't impress anyone.

We can pat ourselves on the back and say we made things temporarily better by putting MORE U.S Personnel in Iraq, and MORE U.S. Money, and MORE U.S. resources into the problem.  All these MORE's of our time and money are not sustainable.

The Surge needs to be part of an over-reaching plan to get our country away from dumping all our money and resources into Iraq's problem.  We have plenty of other issues on our country's plate that need the attention of time, money, and resources.  
bush's plan to win in iraq is to invade iran and send Americas sons and daughters to die in iran with jerri's full support.
way to stay on topic, jerry; didn't know you had ADD.  that explains your lack of comprehension of everything.
so if opposing the present policies in the Middle East means the dems are soft on national security, what does it really mean?  so far, the policy has gotten us bogged down in Iraq, Iran has more influence in the area than ever before, more terrorists are being recruited precisely because of our policy, and 200+ died yesterday in sectarian violence.  and rove thinks this "will lead to success"? to paraphrase ann coulter, "neo-cons should be shot on sight"
"that Democrats are headed toward repeating Vietnam-era mistakes ..."  Going? Fighting? Not hiding behind an anal cyst or a rich daddy? What mistakes did the Democrats make, you stinking pile of cowardice?
Sue, Midland and Sidney, Pa.
You are both so right.  I said after the Democrates took over the House and the Senate, that this White House would kill Americans on American soil just to say, "see, now we are open to attack because you voted to remove the only true protectors of freedom, the Republicans, from office."  Never mind that they are corrupt, never mind that they are just out to get rich, never mind that they DO NOT CARE about our soldiers.  Power corrupts.  As for Jerry, he's just upset that he has to take his thumb out of his mouth and start acting like a citizen of a democracy instead of a police state.  Tell me Jerry, do you take an automatic weapon out to hunt and kill innocent animals?
the gen. will recommend keeping the troops in the area so they can be on hand to invade iran which means jerry has plenty of time to run down and enlist in the army or marines o wait jerry is a beak flappin chickenhawk so no enlisting for jerry just more bs.
I love your GOTCHA Pat.
When I enlisted in the Army in 1963 there were less than 2,500 American 'advisors' in South Viet Nam.  When I was discharged three years later, there were nearly 500,000 American combat troops in Viet Nam.  In those days we called it 'escalation' not surge.

In a rather offhanded way, Mr. Rove has acknowledged that there are more than a few similarites between Iraq and Viet Nam - not the least of which is that in both cases American policy chose to support corrupt, ineffective puppet governments: In Iraq it is Maliki, a corrupt Shi'a shill and in Viet Nam it was Diem, a corrupt Catholic shill in a Buddhist country.  Of course the major difference between the two conflicts is that in Viet Nam we were told that we were supporting an existing government from attack by a neighboring country while in Iraq we were the attacker and destroyed the existing government (as abhorant as it may have been) and created a monumental power vacuum that is sucking us down the proverbial tube.
"In Rove’s view, the nation wound up with its prestige diminished and its adversaries emboldened.”

So much for taking responsibility for one's misdeeds. Idiots like Rove, sell wars based on lies, and then people like Bush mismanage the wars they've started until they become total disasters, Then they MUST blame the people who try to extricate us from their quagmires.

Rove is too gutless to admit his responsibility for the Iraq disaster  so he has to blame somebody else, just like the war mongers before him had to blame the inevitable failure in Vietnam on "the liberal media." That's the correct analogy between Vietnam and Iraq. This is the ultimate cop-out used by fascists around the world. Hitler blamed Germany's loss of World War I on the Jews, Rove blames George Bush's failure in Iraq on the Democrats.

BTW: I'm getting tired of the media still fawning over Rove as some sort of genius. To media morons, someone who can walk down the street and chew gum at the same time might seem like a genius. But Rove merely was such a bottom feeder that he was willing to do disgusting things that no decent human being would even think of doing, like when Rove spread rumors that Texas Gov. Anne Richards was a lesbian in order to start his client G.W. Bush on his long and disastrous career.


The Shrub/Pentagon has lowered the bar in recruiting;theirfore; all the beer chugging(Jerry); 75 I.Q. nitwits; fight them their/not here apologists, and all neo-cons can run to the the nearest recruiting office and join in their glorious new Crusades.  
We've already proven that the biggest lesson from Vietnam hasn't been learned.  Don't go fight a war of convenience in a far away place for no good reason.  Too late, now the damage is done.  The US is responsible for half the WORLD's defense spending and we can't tame a country less than 1/10 our population.  Should be proof positive that dominating the world through military action is a fools errand.
"Are you sorry when the lights begin to fade
Are you sorry for the promises you made
For the burden of the ones who had to fall
When you didn't read the writing on the wall

It was 40 years ago when I was young
And the jungle not the desert heard the guns
Someone said they had a secret plan
And the rest of us were told to understand

Well I don't want this
No I don't want this
I have had enough
No more

Tomorrow is the price for yesterday
A billion waves will wash the truth away
Somedau you'll be ordered to explain
No one gets to walk between the rain

And I don't want this
No I don't want this
I have had enough
No More

Amd I don't want this
No I don't want this
I have had enough
No more
No more"
"No More"-Bob Seger
I apoligize fer mah spelin....I was taught in Liberal government schools
> Sue Midland
>
> All of us knew what you meant,

Insane people generally do understand each other.

The rest of us are more precise.

Mr. Rove is merely articulating the Bush administration's fantasy that we can someday call the invasion successful. Sure, that's possible.  All we have done is cause 2 million Iraqis to leave, another 2.5 million are displaced within the country, tens of thousands are dead, not one person in the country is safe, and now Al Qaeda is active there.  Yet for some reason, Democrats are mocked for questioning this.
Karl, you could please point out the Republican victories in the Mid East? Ronald Reagan's, the Alzheimer Riddled God of the Right, policy in the Mid East after 240 Marines were blown up in Lebanon, was summarized so eloqently by Bill Maher by saying "Were'cutting ad runnig becaus those people are crazy motherf*@#ers."
"I apoligize fer mah spelin....I was taught in Liberal government schools "  Who taught you to think?
The puppeteer is gone! Who will now crank the dummy the majority of Americans chose for their POTUS twice?

<<Rove isn't even aware that our entry into Iraq accomplished "diminshing our prestige and emboldening our adversaries" more than anything else.  It showed the world how incompetent our President is and created a breeding ground for terrorists.>>  
The puppeteer is gone! Who will now crank the dummy the majority of Americans chose for their POTUS twice?

<<Rove isn't even aware that our entry into Iraq accomplished "diminshing our prestige and emboldening our adversaries" more than anything else.  It showed the world how incompetent our President is and created a breeding ground for terrorists.>>  
If we want the Republicans to let us out of Iraq (and lets face it folks, the only reason we are still in this mess is the republicans) they will have to invent some form of the old sandlot next (goal, TD, basket) wins.  The whole strategy has come down to the slender possibility that Bush and his supporters might be proven right.

Civil wars are bloody, painful and cruel.  They only end after one side has completely crushed the others or when all sides become so exhausted that the only alternative is some form of settlement.  Our current strategy has simply provided momentary respite for the warring factions thus prolonging the probable length of the conflict.  Worse still our continued presence in the region provides the factions a moralistic escape clause for the debauchery they continue to perpetrate on they’re fellow Iraqis.  
Houston: I would hardly call being the President of the United States twice a disaster for a politician. In politics, everything goes in order to achieve your goal. You may not agree with Bush, but he may not agree with you. Thats life!! He is there and you are on a blog whining and crying..
Hollar [[Houston: I would hardly call being the President of the United States twice a disaster for a politician.]]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Bush's career has obviously been a disaster for the country, not that Rove or Bush really care at all about that.
Is this Iraq thing all the result of inept money grubbers or could it be a calculted effort to further a much grander objective?  Can anyone say one world government/


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