A good look at what it is really about in Iraq.  Yes, we will be hated by all if we do not allow the Iraqis to take the lead in their government.  We must not meddle too much in their decisions since we are already seen as occupiers of their country.

Their government will make mistakes, as all new forms of government do and as our own government has done.  Hopefully they will learn from their mistakes and the problems will not be insurmountable.  

We are arming the Sunnis now and this is making the Shiites nervous, as is understandable.  In trying to be fair and also have the Sunnis fight the insurgents, we may be seen as playing one side against the other.  Darned if you do and darned if you don't.

The importance of what Rove has to say depends solely on an individual’s assessment of his skills as a strategist.  History may prove that Mr. Rove was a fortunate benefactor of two incompetently run campaigns on the part of Gore and Kerry that he almost lost.  He certainly has never been tested against the political machine that is the Clintons.

What I see is a little man trying desperately to hold on to some political relevance so he might earn enough to pay for his impending legal troubles.

"The claim that we are increasingly in control of the battlefields in Iraq is an assessment arrived at through a flawed, American-centered framework."...of course, and we already know what the report from Petraeus in Sept will say...in '08 its time to DUMP these lyin' sacks of ****

I have said this before as long as we stay in Iraq their president will be looked upon as a puppet of the United States.
I doubt that one iraqi in a hundred think we are there for them and not for their oil.
Once we leave Iraq will probably wind up with another dictator which is probably the only type government that can survive in a country as divided as Iraq.

We have, through unimaginable policies, placed ourselves in an impossible position.  Everyone knows you cannot fight terrorism with an army. Everyone knows Al-Qaeda is Sunni.  Everyone knows Saddam hated Al-Qaeda.  Why all this bickering?  Let's get to the real reason for the invasion of Iraq so we can start working on a plan to extricate ourselves.

What?!  the hell is going on!!!!!!

I thought the mission had been accomplished!

There isn't a military force in the world that can resist the US Armed Forces, but they have no power to create a domestic government in a place that wants civil war.  They have done their job, bring them home.

Forget Iraq it is Bush who Is the reason we are there. Get rid of the rubbish at the top,  shrub/chamey TREASON THE REASON. IMPEACH!
Spend what little time and money we have left and topple our own dictators.  I am waiting for SHOCK AND AWE inside the White House.

I doubt Bush will ever listen to the soldiers on the ground like he claims too.  He's too busy listening to what he thinks is the voice of God.

Having a family member, serving in Iraq, in the 82nd Airborne Division, none of this NYT op-ed piece even remotely surprises our family.  We have heard the exact same truth for over 13 months.  The war in Iraq has failed, the reasons for going were lies, and the Surge is yet another failed PR stunt, that like the war has continued to rob us of  our finest men and women, and more of our national treasure.  Those who attacked us on 9/11/01 were not Iraqi.  President Bush's military blunder in Iraq has furthered the cause of those that did attack us in 2001, and destroyed his Presidency along the way.  September should mark the end of funding a continued escalation of our involvement in this 1300-year old Civil War, and the beginning of a plan to fight the real enemies of the United States.  George W. Bush having lost all moral authority should be 100% excluded from any plans regarding protecting our Nation..and Congress should formulate along with our military leaders a strategy to fight our real enemies, until Bush leaves office, and we have a Democratic Commander-in-Chief, who is competent to do the job.

Something I haven't seen mentioned much is that the suicide rate for the army is at 26 year high with 25%  committed while seving in iraq or afgan.  Preliminary numbers for 2007 indicate suicides increasing among troops serving in irasq and afgan. Associated press writer  Pauline Jelink

All this garbage has been played before - I was there with the 3rd Marine Division. It was called Viet Nam.

Another day, another hand full of american soldiers in the meat grinder. We do nor posess the power either political or physically to stop the?? (what is the mission? I really don't remember why we are there) Was it to eject Hussane, or was it to fight Al Quada, or was it to bring the Iraqis freedom. Quite frankly in all this stupidity I clean forgot.

A mere handful of soldiers does not a case either for or against the Surge make.[Especially when it was found neccesary for liberals to engage in a little swiftboating of their own, this time, courtesy of the NEW REPUBLIC and its Iraq fabrications which it printed earlier this month].
              This said,the New York Times went further than it probably wished [possibly the reason for running this ''The War As We Saw It''article],when it ran another a few days earlier under the heading ''The Politics Of God''.
             This is one of the most insightful articles yet run by the usually biased Times. In it, Mark Lilla  studies the confusion of western societies in confronting messianic movements now pitting themselves against one another in Iraq. Both invoke the ''return''of a greater religious thing in order to justify not merely Iraqi-consolidation-by-death, but the ownership of an entire globe using similar tactics and strategy.
          Sunnis invoke ''The Caliphate''.Shias, the ''12th Imam''. Both see Iraq as merely the means to an end. Regional power first,to be later spread across the world. It has had successes in two vitally tandem areas that further these goals.

First the means to capitalize upon the desire for western disengagement from the region, by those in both Europe in the US. By ever more horrific utilizations of tactics designed to propel a quick withdrawl from the region in not simply Iraq,but Afghanistan as well where the European NATO membership is beginning to fracture under the pressure of kidnappings and bombings. The Sunnis lead the way here.

Second, a three-pronged foreign policy program by the Iranian Shias that inculculates both secular and religious goals. More arms and fighters bled across Iraqs leaky borders to assist the Shia communities,interference in the course of other neighboring nation-states,and the development of a nuclear weapon. All are designed to establish ,at least at first,regional hegemony. As in WWI, it is not for nothing that Iran has placed agents provacateurs into Turkey as a means of having this glittering prize, that of Iraq as well,fall into their laps. In Iraq,it is merely a matter of waiting out the Americans. In Turkey,to actively forment revolution. The Bomb will allow for the defense of the new Iranian Empire by its expectant use of nuclear blackmail as a bargaining chip. [this ante will be immediately raised by the equally nuclear Israel,creating for the first time since October 1962, the possibility of a nuclear armed conflict].
               Both religious concerns,especially butressed by what they will see as both military and psychological victories against the West,will now reach for religious mastery of the world at large. In this, they are assisted in the democracies by their nations leftwings,and by the greater fear [as outlined by Lilla in the Times article], of ''offending'' the cocked and loaded gun of Islam.Here,the Left foolishly imagines the American fundementalist fox as enemy,while ignoring the massive Islamic bear behind them.  As always,the early instances will be almost too minute for even cursory examination, but they will go forward nonetheless. A few examples.

In Great Britain,its BBC network has eliminated all references to Islam deemed ''offensive''while allowing anti-western [Muslim-based criticisms] and anti-Semitic writings.

In Denmark,known as the nation that first released the ''Mohammed cartoons'', upcoming marches to observe 9/11 and protests aimed at curbing further Islamic immigration to that nation have been cancelled by order of city governments.

In the United States, university book publishers,notably Cambridge[US] under pressure by Saudi Arabia, have ordered the destruction of the new book ''Alms For Jihad'' detailing Islamo-American ''charity''contributions which have ended up in the hands of extremist Islamic organizations.

Thus the ''fear''by which critics of the administration have utilized to cast a light upon legal ''excesses'',and ''unconsitutional''behaviors is in actuality occurring. But not for the reasons they think. Western media, in the wake of death threats after the Danish cartoons, is too petrified by fear to sound any warnings regarding the march of militant Islam led by its nexis leaders in Iran and among the fractured Sunnis[who nevertheless are assisted in their militaristic and propaganda goals by the oil-rich Saudis].
             All indications in ''The Politics Of God''point to diminishing western fortunes,and a more radicalized and dangerous world,even absent our presence in either Iraq or anywhere in the Middle East. We will not even to be able to buy time. A new draconianism, formented by a religion of ''peace''will move to place its bloody imprint upon the peoples of the world, starting with the West.

So Lee Holmes, does that mean I should put you in the "kill all the muslims before they kill us" column?

"pleese rube! i don't care what shell the darned peanut's under. i don't care about the teddy bear- can't we just go home?"

Lee, very good post with interesting takes on what is going on in the middle east.  You support the ends justifies the means in your second last paragraph; however, would Iran had the chance to unleash its 3-pronged attack had bush not invaded a sovereign country?  that, in and of itself, justified how the West wants to subdue the Islamic east, in Muslim eyes.  that, in my opinion, is why we and the world are in the mess we are in today.  
and if the New Republic did some swiftboating, the entire media wrongfully did it during the '04 election...doesn't make it right, but was it swiftboating?  who knows how many other military personnel feel the same way as the eight in the article.   Doesn't prove anything one way or another...but it does show even parts of the military doubt the strategy of the surge at this point.  

How will the white house handle this op ed thing. They can't very well smear them as they are wont to do with others.

Lee, how exactly will Sharia law or something like it be imposed throughout the world when only about 20% of the world's people consider themselves Muslim?  For example in western Europe and the US where 85% (more or less, depending on the country) consider themselves Christian?

Who do you want to believe, the Generals who kiss the president ass, or the soldiers on the ground who see it up front and personel, and not behind the green wall with security all around. I have to believe those on the front lines getting shot, and what is working or not working.

Oh I have to agree with you Steve, just like Nam.

I doubt very seriously if this is a piece actually written by professional soldiers in the battlezone. Soldiers are not sitting around scheming ways to get something to the NY Times. The Times is in constant conflict with the military. I can believe that a few Natl Guardsmen sit around and somehow got this out to a family member. Professional soldiers do not engage in this ignorance. Besides this is in violation of Article 22 of the UCMJ and I can guarantee there will be a 15-6 investigation spewing from this. If this is true, all of these soldiers need to be punished, not for what they wrote, but because it is not good for "Good Order and Discipline"

Hmmmph...and people keep telling me it's only disgruntled National Guard members who feel that way.

"The New York Times op-ed by eight members of the 82nd Airborne division stationed in Iraq will be very difficult for the White House and other supporters of the surge to push back on."

No it won't.
They will ignore it,
They will belittle it.
They will cast doubts on it's authenticity.
They will castigate the NY Times for defeatism and there-by castigate the authors for defeatism indirectly.
They will roll s**t down the chain of command and we will see a "tightening of security" with regards to op -eds by active duty soldiers.
They will twist and lie and spin and sell their mothers into prostitution if that will help protect this clan of inbred dolts from admitting their ineptitude at just about any task you can imagine...except, of course, for lying, cheating, stealing, and dishonoring our nation in pursuit of a permanent base in the middle east.

Can't wait until the Islamofascists take on 1.3 billion Chinese. The USA and Western Europe may fold, but the a--stomping by the Chinese will be worth the wait.
Hope I live to see it.

That's right, IntheMiddle, they disagree with you therefore they are scheming, unprofessional, ignorant, bad soldiers who need to be punished.  Perhaps it is you that is most of the above, although unlike you I would never consider punishing Americans for expressing an independent thought.  To me that would be unamerican.

IntheMiddle, how is your habitual dissing of the National Guard good for for "Good Order and Discipline"?

Greg R., Spokane, WA --- What?!  the hell is going on!!!!!!

I thought the mission had been accomplished!  ---

It was, but we've been keeping that information away from you just to see how long we could keep you in the dark.

If we're there for the oil, then where is it?  By now, the oil should be flowing like the roses the Iraqis were supposed to have thrown at us, so that gas should be below $1/gallon!  All lies! All lies!

John B, Des Moines, IA-- Leave Lee alone, John. His basement is stocked, he is locked and loaded and you are blowing his whole "the barbarian hordes are at the gates of Rome and we will all be hugging rugs and eating couscous in 5 years" fantasy. If he in fact believes his paranoid delusions how is it he can support how this "War" is being conducted? One would think he would be in the "kill them all and let God sort them out" camp. Of course maybe he is just pacing himself. I see in the second to last paragraph that he finally gets around to justifying free men trading their liberty for safety...I think. The paragraph was rather muddled and hard to understand but the last paragraph is fairly clear. The hordes of the east are some how going to take control all western governments and convert all citizens to Islam within a few short years. Very disconcerting.

inthediddle why is the army suicide rate at 26 year high and why are the suicide rates in iraq and afgan so high?  why don't you support the constitution and the US and why dont you beleive in freedom of speech?n  Why do you hate America?

John  "B" from Des Moines,  your short-sighted outlook is exactly the problem we have in America. Lee writes and intelligent article and all you see is the nose on your face.  Did you miss the part about Great Britian's BBC caving in to Islam?  Have you missed the news about the recent bombings there and other places.  Islam in my humble opinion, is the most violent religion on earth.  Name me one other religion that actually says it is good to kill some one who doesn't believ your way and that will get you a place in heaven.  Read the Koran, it does say that.

As for the returning soldiers, they have the right to speak out.  That's what they have been fighting for.  They do not have the right to use their military status to do so.  They should do the honorable thing, resign, because they no longer believe in the mission.  I hope they do because my son is in Iraq and I don't want them in a foxhole with him.  I want someone who will give it 110% like my son and the rest of his buddies do.  And, guess what, my son is with the 82nd and everyone of the young men and women I have met back the mission.

Hooah!

ABNPOPPA

Lee, Columbus, Ohio-- YOU SAID-"Name me one other religion that actually says it is good to kill some one who doesn't believe your way and that will get you a place in heaven."  

Ok, Christianity and Judaism.

Deuteronomy 17:2-5: "If there be found among you...[a] man or woman...[who] hath gone and served other gods and worshipped them...then shalt though bring forth that man or that woman...and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

For a real good time check out Leviticus where in  mass execution, destruction of all live stock, houses and possessions is the recommend cure for the non believer.

Lee, Islam does not have a monopoly on psychosis amongst the religions of the world. It is a shared psychosis.

Ex-marine: MF you say I hate America!! All that I have given to this country and a little peon like you have the audacity to say I hate America. You need to get a grip. I have humpty dumped for 24 yrs and change, received numerous citations, ACTUALLY DEPLOYED to Iraq 3 times and was injured there on my first tour, and you say I hate America. I think some of you back here in the states hate America. What do you call it constantly bashing the commander in chief?etc ..Enuff said........

I hope that none of the wives of these 82nd Airborne soldiers work at the CIA.

nuanced: If you wish to be another in a long series of those who apologize for Muslim machinations,almost  based  solely in violence or its threat, so be it. While you and others are trying to get the better angle on this ''religion of peace'',they will have killed another million people,including Americans. You can have your 12th Century fundementalism,[this time, however, with nuclear scimitars]. Enjoy it while you may.

thou shalt not kill.

Gary: If this be ''fantasy'',you had better hope that you are right.

John B.: Ask rather,how two tiny nations,by US standards anyway,with only tens of millions in their 1930s populations,were nearly the masters of an entire globe in less than two short years[1939-1941].
 Take a map of the world circa 1985 and superimpose it with the march of militant Islam. One nation after another has succumbed to its violence while those who have seen alarming rises in the immigrant populations of the adherents of this religion are accomodating their violence based out of fear,which in and of itself strikes no compromises that will be lasting, and indeed, only encourages future outrages.

Mark Y:There are no doubts that our Iraq incursion has been a boon to Iranian interests. Their ancient threat has been neutralized. The question of the future is, what will America do to cope with a nuclear,militarized Iran that seeks to digest its neighbors including Israel in a region where we no longer maintain a presence? Do we strike the grand bargain and allow it its regional hegemony? What if the price of this is war with Israel,eventually setting the whole Middle East on fire? What future American president will allow for oil disruption?[Irony of ironies,a Democrat president in such an environment will have to display US offensive capabilities,at air and sea at the least,in order to ''protect the oil lanes''.Thus,it will be about ''oil''in the end anyway].

inthediddle why do you hate America?  you do not back the US constitution which is the backbone of America.  you back a beakflappin would be dictator instead of the cherised American values enumerated in the Declaration of Independence and the American constitution.  that makes you an Americanm hater who would if possible overthrow the constitution and all those brave military troops who put their lives on the line for the constitution, NOT  the president.  so to all those who would throw out the constitution and back bush/cheney/rove/rush/hitler GO TO HELL.

Gary: You would trot out a two-thousand-plus year Biblical verse and attempt to apply it to todays Christinaity and Judaism? Nonsense. The old mantras no longer apply. Indeed,in the ''Politics of God''we find that western man,through its ages of Enlightenment and Reason worked to eschew the old religious feuds of its past. Enough time has now gone by where we are unable to grasp the the ferocity of the 12th century living amongst the 21st.Except that the ferocity is not formented by either Christianity or Judaism but by Islam. This condition alone renders you unsafe in most portions of the world where this religion predominates. Then too,sectarian wars based upon any-but-Islam no longer exist. For Sunni and Shia,it is a fight to the finish with anyone who gets in their way ending up as dead as Caesar.

Isn't it odd that if the US succeeds in Iraq, then the Democrats are hurt politically?  The Democrats entire premise for their foreign policy depends on failure by the US in Iraq.

Looks like the Democrats will be endorsed by the radical Islamic-fascists this next election cycle.

Gary S - For a real good time check out Leviticus where in  mass execution, destruction of all live stock, houses and possessions is the recommend cure for the non believer.

Lee, Islam does not have a monopoly on psychosis amongst the religions of the world. It is a shared psychosis.


The difference of course is that religious scholars like Gary drag quotes out of the bible to support their loon position.  The quotes they bring out though are not being acted upon by any Christians in the world.

Radical Islamic terrorists though act out what they (wrongly) believe the Koran says on a daily basis.  We see the terror and mayhem they produce against innocents.  And somehow Gary equates the two.  Nutty.

While it is true I have never been in the military it is also true that I have a loved one who has been serving in Iraq for the past 12 months with the 82nd Airborne as an infantryman.  I have to wonder how 8 members of the 82nd Airborne serving in Iraq had the time to put together the extremely well written op-ed article in a collaborative manner and perform their assigned duties. My trooper has very little free time on his hands.  It seems more likely one of the eight was the writer and the rest put their names to the finished document. Although I appreciate their opinions and their right to have them, from what I understand about military regulations these 8 troopers will face some difficulties with their superiors.  The real problem is that I believe they are indeed in violation of the rules of military conduct that were established to ensure the most efficient operation of the organization. All organizations have rules about interaction with the press for their employees to adhere to and to think it would or should be different with the military would be naive.  Like most organizations, the military is not a democracy and the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and guardsmen don’t get to vote on strategy and policy.  If you think that is wrong, then you have no real idea what it takes to defend our nation or manage almost any kind of organization.  As I have written, I have never served in the military, yet I had to follow orders like everybody else in the organizations that I worked in, and I fully expected those under my supervision to do the same.  These 8 troopers should have waited until they were out of the service before expressing their opinions, and especially in the NYT.  I have to question why they did not wait.

At 4:35 p.m. on this the 20th day of August, Year of Our Lord 2007, Lee Holmes wrote a sentence with which I am in complete agreement, ergo: "For Sunni and Shia, it is a fight to the finish with anyone who gets in their way ending up as dead as Caesar."

Wouldn't you think that anyone who is in such strong agreement with the U.S. being "in the way" for the past four years, deluding themselves that bush and them could exert any effect or influence on this "fight to the finish", could see the irony?

IntheMiddle, Texas--No it is not enough said. Thank you for doing your duty. The military doing what they are ordered to do without question is what allows free debate about what they have been ordered to do.
In a free society we cannot just accept as right whatever the CinC orders the military to do.  He could be wrong. He has been wrong. The Military deserves some protection from BAD leaders and BAD policy because guess what...BAD happens.  As a citizen of this country I will question. I will debate. I will demand that any blood and treasure spent by this country be for GAIN and not for WASTE. Also, the CinC is NOT the military. He is not a King and so in a free society from time to time he will be bashed.
I am totally comfortable that you in the military are not allowed to Bash him while you are in Uniform. The US Military will always be subservient the Civilian authority and there for it is important for vigilant Citizenry to monitor and oversee that Civilian Authority. To protect the sacred relationship that a truly free society has with it's military.  The day that you guys start deciding Strategic policy is the last day of the Republic and the first day of Military Dictatorship.
Really, Thank you for your sacrifice and your patience with a free society. The strength of our military comes from citizen soldiers who think for themselves and know and cherish that which they die for.

catch 22 is you fight for freedom of speech but if you speak freely then you are condemed for exercising the very freedom you are suppossedly fighting for.  Did these troops reveal any secret military operations?  did these troops  merely express their opinions?  Were these troops disrespecting any of their commanding officers?  Would someone please tell me the exact laws that were broken?  Is this merely attacking those who dissagree with bush?  I see it posted that the suicide rate in iraq and afgan is the highest in years, if all the troops back the this war then why the high suicide rates?

Scott in ST - Wouldn't you think that anyone who is in such strong agreement with the U.S. being "in the way" for the past four years, deluding themselves that bush and them could exert any effect or influence on this "fight to the finish", could see the irony?

The trouble is, when the Sunni and Shia are done with each other, their next stop is to "Blame the West".  Don't think for a moment they have forgotten about the West, and make no mistake about it, they'll be looking for us soon enough.

The Islamic fascists may never like us, but they need to respect us.  Do you think they'll respect treaties, or power?

Tam Hennings--The vast majority of Muslims would also not practice what the Koran preaches as to the fate of Infidels. To say that all Christendom is enlightened is to forget the David Koresh's and the Jim Jones'.  It is to forget that the solid support given Israel by American Evangelical Christians has everything to do with Israels role in their loony apocalyptic self fulfilling fantasy which they are salivating to see occur. Visit any one of the frightening amount of websites devoted to "WWIV" and see how many of your "enlightened" Christians are declaring that ALL of the Islamic world has attacked the Christian west and it is time to hoist Old Glory on a staff with a cross on the top and "march as to war" and kill them all before they kill us.  The fact is that on 9/11 we were attacked by RELIGIOUS NUTS. We righteously went into Afghanistan after them and after chasing them out we took our eye off the ball and are in danger of losing our one legitimate foothold in the region.  The fact is this Administration took a disgruntled ex CIA asset and turned him into Dr. Evil. when we should have taken every opportunity to kill him and his supporters quietly and as surely as the sun rises with covert operatives over the next 50 years if need be. Revenge Killings. That would be something all religious crazies understand and respect.

Lee, in your response, you mention the same issues why anti-war people took their stand: oil and destabilizing the middle east.  In keeping Iran in check, the shrub failed to recognize (although his father did) that a 'strong" Iraq kept Iran in check (Shia vs. Sunni) in MidEast politics.  by going into Iraq, we helped create a bolder and nuclear Iran, so yes, NOW we have to deal with that (and N Korea while we're at it).  This admin's actions have left little it could do for now; therefore, they have left few options for the next admin, who will in all likelihood be left holding the political baggage since our electorate is so woefully forgetful.  bush's energy policies (or should I say cheney's closed door energy policies) have made us even more dependent on fossil fuels, creating the need for the next president to protect our oil interests.  thus, the corn for food or fuel question will loom even larger in the near future.  your post seems to gloat at the prospect of a Dem president having to protect the oil interests.  shows me you have given up on '08 for the repubs and that you fail to acknowledge or admit the current mess is all due to our decider/divider in chief. good posts and discussion, though...best I've had in awhile.

Gee, I wished I had seen this last yesterday before my son called last night. He is with the 82ABN in Iraq,went with the Jan surge. I would have asked what he thought of this article.I know he is to tired from patrol & guard duty to write to me, let alone the NY Times. So, I am trying to imagine who these soldiers are to have use their precious down time to write! My son calls me to ask for things to be sent, to see how everyone is doing, and talk about when he is coming home (not soon enough for him or us).We try to keep a positive attitude & there are jokes to lighten the conservation. I do have some questions: 1. Why can't the Iraqi people step up to the plate for themselves and 2.Why is that we can train military people in a matter of months and these people can't. I think they are lazy!

Gary - you have got to be kidding.  Koresh and Jones?  Those are your counter-arguments to Islamic fascists?  Koresh and Jones were both insane.  To state that they did what they did because of some religious reason is a non-starter as an attempt in trying to connect Christians and Judism to Islamic terrorists.  I don't quite remember either of them going out and terrorizing non-Catholics and non-Jews - maybe you can fill us all in on that movement.

Gary, your argument is vacant, devoid of any reason.  Not sure what the second half of your rant is about, but it seems to be going on some kind of weird tangent.  Good luck with trying to explain what you are talking about.

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