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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC Political Researcher



Oh-eight (D): Rove's reverse psych

Posted: Monday, August 20, 2007 9:04 AM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under:

So is Karl Rove using reverse psychology on Democrats regarding Clinton v. Obama? The Los Angeles Times' Wallsten lays out the case that Rove may be attacking Clinton as a way to get Democrats to rally around her because secretly the GOP fears Obama. Wallsten notes that the Bush campaign -- in 2004 -- did a similar thing. "With his Southern base, charismatic style and populist message, Edwards, they believed, could be a real threat to Bush's reelection. But instead of attacking Edwards, Rove's team opened fire at Kerry. Their thinking went like this, Dowd explained: Democrats, in a knee-jerk reaction to GOP attacks, would rally around Kerry, whom Rove considered a comparatively weak opponent, and make him the party's nominee. Thus Bush would be spared from confronting Edwards, the candidate Republican strategists actually feared most."

VIDEO: NBC's Andrea Mitchell reports Karl Rove may be leaving the White House, but he is not letting up on his criticism of the Democrats, especially front-runner Hillary Clinton.

"Is Rove playing a similar game against Clinton? Is he trying to stampede Democrats into nominating her, having concluded that Obama, Edwards or someone else would pose a stiffer challenge to the Republican nominee?"

The California Nurses Association is running three TV ads in Iowa advocating a single-payer health-care system. The ad campaign began Sunday, coinciding with ABC's Iowa debate. Created by North Woods Advertising, the ads have three different endings individually targeting Clinton, Obama and Edwards.

Speaking of Iowa, the "Cast your Kernel" poll at the Iowa State Fair conducted by our NBC Des Moines affiliate, WHO-TV, is over and the winners are: Clinton for the Dems and Romney for the GOP. Edwards finished second, Obama third. Huckabee was second on the GOP side, inching ahead of Giuliani after his straw poll surge.

BIDEN: The Boston Globe: “Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden aired his first campaign advertisement Sunday, casting himself as the only candidate with a viable strategy for a sustainable peace in Iraq.”

KUCINICH: The candidate met with the Boston’s Globe’s editorial board and on Saturday, and the paper wrote Kucinich believes “his support will build as voters realize that he reflects many of their views on policies that matter to their lives.”

OBAMA: Given the announcement by the Obama campaign that it will be cutting back on the number of Democratic forums he attends and that he accept invitations only to DNC-sponsored debates, many in yesterday’s spin room after the debate were asked to comment. Obama adviser David Axelrod explained, “It’s just disastrous to keep doing more and more and more of these things, kind of turning the entire Democratic field into a traveling Vaudeville show, rather than spending time and really sitting down with people.” He continued, “It takes, literally days out of your schedule that you could spend campaigning around the country, meeting with voters, and so you want to strike a balance. We want to do these debates,” adding, “They’re a great forum for us, but they can’t consume the campaign.”

Others, though, stressed the importance of the campaigns for candidates in the lower-tier.  Richardson spoke with NBC News, saying that although many people nationwide may not be paying too close of attention before Labor Day, “Debates are important. We ought to do all debates. The American people deserve to see their candidates, especially the candidates that don’t have the money that all the other candidates have for paid media.” 
 
Elizabeth Edwards also weighed in. She decried the time limits that are often placed on candidates during 60- to 90-minute forums, but said that if another format is not feasible, then “maybe, in fact, we do need this.”

Sunday’s Boston Globe took a look inside Camp Obama, a nationwide volunteer training program. “The intensive, two-day workshop was more boot camp than summer camp: The hours were long, the expectations were high, and participants received little more than Einstein's coffee, caramel cream can dies, and a hearty thank you.”

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Comments

I think that it is smart to push for Hilary nomination because it will give republican a chance to hold to the white house. I hope the democrats, this time will see the best option.
I watched Washington Journal and they had this question on.  I was struck by the sheer stupidity of the people in my own party.  They really do not look for motives and scratch under the surface but, just take things at face value.
Rove trashes Clinton so let's rally around.
They just are too obtuse to see what the real reason is.
Hillary is looked at as our weakest candidate and the easiest to beat.  They see they have an even chance to win if she is the nominee.  But, Democrats cannot see this.  And after all the openness from Dowd in 04 and republicans openly saying it this time.
of course the gop doesn't want to run against Obama or Edwards.  Espeically with Obama siphoning away republicans to his side now.  
Come on people.  We cry about why we loose elections.  smarten up and look at the fact that there is always motives and under the surface going on.  We will start winning when we start to get alot more savvy.
Karl Rove can unite the Democratic Party. He's been an utter failure and the Democrats should seize upon that. The Iraq War, Katrina, Immigration, the Economy, the Constitution, our standing around the world - the list is endless.

If he wants to be "out there", then go after him.

It was striking how he said he didn't care what people thought of him. You would think with this Administration's failures, he would care. But he doesn't. Go after him. Every candidate should. It's part of what they're running against. They created this mess. Karl Rove doesn't deserve one ounce of respect.

Karl Rove, Dick Cheney, George Bush.

The Three Stooges.
Sadly, those who are battling Rove are forgetting the big picture:  if you want to win the White House, you put the person up that has the best chance to win it.  Regardless of how people may feel that Hillary will unite the Democrats (which she would), she would also unite the Republicans (who HATE the Clintons with the same passion that Republicans hate George W.).  Might Hillary win?  Sure.  Just as likely, it would be a hard-fought, painful battle that doesn't give the winner a chance to be a true leader for the country.  As a Republican (who, is also tired of Bush's policies), I would much rather see a candidate who has a chance of getting things done in Washington (Obama, Edwards), than Hillary being nominated.  Again, my opinion, as a Republican:  Obama or Edwards would get my vote in a general, but I can't stomach voting for Hillary
More like hes trying to stampede dems into voting AGAINST her by letting us THINK he wants her to be nominated. Its the oldest trick in the book. AND we shouldn't even be paying attention to him in the first place; as he divides and spreads hatred and misery for all Americans. What an evil man. Some folks are touting him as this great political strategist. Look what he's done to his OWN party. Look what too much power and arrogance has gotten himself and this country. George W Bush. HORRID!!!
I think it's very interesting that someone from the White House would use the words "fatally flawed" to describe any candidate. If Rove and his White House buddies want to truly understand what it all means ....look no further than Iraq. A fatally flawed war that has cost thousands of americans their lives.  What a moron.
Mr Rove is so incredible that he's nearly destroyed his own party! This man is now a joke, just like his boss. They are both LOSERS.
Don't think for a moment that Rove is working the "Hillary is fatally-flawed" angle cause he wants the Democrats to put up a "stronger" candidate for the GOP to run against in the general.

Please!

Since when have Rove and the GOP been the least bit concerned about either a "fair fight" or the "high road"?

Since when have Rove and the GOP had any interest whatsoever in bi-partisanship, kumbayaing, or any of that crap.

Rove is trying to sow seeds of doubt regarding Clinton becuase he's done his homework and has come to the conclusion that she is the strongest Democrat who can win in 2008.

For anyone who is interested in a fact-based analysis of how well Hillary does against the GOP in a general election, here is a diary at MyDD which shows Hillary whomping Giuliani in a general election. The diarist uses the available head-to-head state polls as the basis for the argument:

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/8/18/195354/266

If the last 20 years of politics have taught us anything, it is that the GOP will do whatever is necessary to win. Period.

Rove and the GOP will always play ruthlessly. We need to be serious about electing a candidate who has a proven track record at beating them!

The Clintons, whatever you may think of them, have that proven track record.
If they are the three stooges, then they made Gore and Kerry look like Laurel and Hardy.
It is so obvious who the repubs are afraid of. The Clintons terrify them. Otherwise Mr. Rove would be attacking someone else. Rove probably promised Bush he will now spend much of his time trying to keep Clinton out of office. This is his main objective now. He is ruthless. But so are the Clintons. Diane, you are the one that is waaay off base.
Rove just irks the Democrats to no end.  Now he's just messing with the Dems, and the Dems just can't stop themselves from rising to the bait.  Karl is the "puppet-master', not of Bush, but of the Democratic party.  He pulls a string, and the Dems jump.  It is very amusing to watch.
edwards is the only dem that can win the general election, that fact has never changed, and ain't going to, the risk is too high with any of the other candidates, we can't afford another repub in the white-house, make your vote count
It is not a well-guarded secret, that the republicans are pushing for Clinton to be the nominee. All of the conservative talking radio pundits are openly stating they hope Clinton is the Democratic nominee, because they feel she is poison and that will rally the conservative base against her.  Democrats should heed the old advice to keep you friends close and your enemies closer.  It does not hurt to listen to the other sides conversation
Susan, Miami / your argument won't fly, why would the republicans not want hillary nominated? the worst case scenario would be she gets elected and since she is receiving truckloads of money from the same pacs and lobbyists that the republican party is in bed with it would be a win win for the repubs, but they know they can beat her in the general election, don't throw your vote away on hillary, she ain't worth it
I'm not sure if it is fair to say that Republicans hate the Clintons as much as Democrats hate Bush.  I come from a family of Republicans, and not a single one of them "hates" the Clintons.  They disagree with them politically, and some of them think that Bill is rather smarmy and dishonest, but their emotions do not run as high as Democrats in regard to Bush.  Most, if not all, Democrats that I know are sickened by Bush - they look upon him with complete loathing.  And there are quite a few independents and even Republicans who feel the same way, as has been evidenced on First Read on several occasions.  I just don't think there is quite the same intensity to the anti-Clinton emotions as there is to the anti-Bush emotions.  Perhaps there was a decade ago, but not anymore.

Let Rove spout out whatever he wants and wherever he wants, lets be smart, no matter who receives the Democratic Nomination go vote for them - the one way to upset his little applecart for sure.  Does not matter to me who actually receives the nomination, I'm gonna vote for the Democratic nominee.  That is the way to win, that is the way the repugnants win.  It is about time we have learned that is how to play the game and win.  I have only learned one valuable thing from repugnants and that is to vote continous party line.  If it is good enough for them, it will be even better for us, especially if we beat them at their own game.  Most repugnants are not gonna vote for a Democratic candidate no matter who they are, so we just need to be sure to show up and vote for our candidate, not matter who it is.
Does Karl Rove attack Hillary because he knows that we know that he knows he really wants Hillary to get the nominination?  Puleeez

Reminds me of the Princess Bride movie----
PS: Vizinni is either Karl Rove or the media pundits, take your pick.

Man in Black: All right. Where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right... and who is dead.
Vizzini: But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you: are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet or his enemy's? Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I am not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool, you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me.
KARL ROVE = L
bb / rove wants hillary nominated, so the repubs can win in 08,
I don't read or listen to anything resident evil rove has to say, and would think the only ones who would would have to be as dumb as the ignorant cowboy. So I guess about 75% of the country isn't listening.
LOL, from the meet the press things yesterday, Karl Rove said:

She voted against providing seniors with a prescription drug benefit.
She voted against allowing people to save tax free for their out-of-pocket medical expenses.
She voted against medical liability reform so that docs are not forced out of practice by junk lawsuits.
She opposes leveling the playing field so that people who pay for health insurance out of their own pocket get the same tax break the big corporations get for providing health care benefits to their employees.
She's against allowing people to shop for health insurance across state lines like we do with auto insurance so the consumers would have more choices and there'd be competition to get your business, give you more for less.
She's voting for penalizing seniors who have those private health care plans through Medicare

sounds like she will do almost anything to get her own health care plan in place even if it means destroying the health care field.
Another stupid post Jerry.  What does the current election cylcle have to do with Gore & Kerry?
well Union baby let's see:

You could vote for Hillary;  her husband worked for a company that provided lists to thieves that stole money from alzheimer's patients....

You could vote for John Edwards;  his hedge fund is throwing Katrina victims out of their houses and he made millions from it.  He's trying to get his money out of it, but he would have to give ALL of his profits to the Katrina victims to make it right.....

Joe Biden;  probably a good man, but all he wants to talk about is outside the country......

Chris Dodd; enough said.......

Richardson;  needs a little more info about gay people ........

Dennis;  enough said........

Grave; the only honest democrat running but a bit of the ultimate wild card.......

That leaves Obama;  might be tied into the mob in Chicago a little too much.......

yes, quite a choice.
The Republicans from the state of Texas. You can thank them for this mess we're in.  People who had no business running our country. They care about no one, especially the welfare of our 49 other states. Don't raise taxes. Guess you guys need more money in your fat pockets. Vote Republican. How boring. How simple minded. The only thing this Admin. had left was the economy. Even that's gone with the wind, along with family values, fighting terrorism, being uniters instead of dividers.

You guys came to DC with no class, no brains, no commitment. Just plenty of hate and lies. For us all. Nice way to run a government.
Union baby and Joe Chi, right on! You got it right. Just vote democratic. Remember folks, if horrible Jerry rants on and on against her that means Clinton is very dangerous democrat for them to have in office and they know it.
This Rove guy should be taken out behind the woodshed and be done with. Nobody should be listening to this little sissy anymore. ANY  democrat will kick butt at election time.
Screw reverse psychology!Just vote democratic.
I have noticed for some time now that it seems the people working hardest to get Hillary nominated are Republicans.  I am a Democrat, but if Hillary gets the nomination, I will vote for the Republican candidate of choice because I will not vote for Hillary for President.  Whatever else you say about him, Rove is a master strategist and I agree that he probably doesn't say anything 'accidently'.  I am sure the Republican party is counting on a lot more people like me that will see Hillary on the ticket and run the other way.  
Forget Rove. It's like listening to Grima Wormtongue.
He speaks to confuse. What he says is rarely what he means. DON"T LISTEN! Use your heads. Trust your hearts.
Stick to basics.
To win the General election a Candidate has to have broad appeal.

Polarizing candidates with high negatives are strong with the base and weak in the center.

The Base alone cannot elect your candidate.

Negative numbers are the hardest to change.

Given the choice between a polarizing candidate and some one new the center will vote AGAINST the polarizing candidate because they instinctively and correctly want a candidate with a mandate.

Cheryl, IL -- grow up. Don't vote out of spite for not getting your way. Vote responsibly. vote Democratic.
I have to laugh whenever I hear a Karl Rove or a Republican or jerry or Robert Novak giving Democrats advice on how to win the election. Such big hearted people.  Their advice is worse than useless.
why would anbody believe what this loser haas to say----he is so ready to go all over the talk shows to blast Clinton but is afraid to sit in front of congress and open that odorous mouth.Sly and cunning---and it seems the stupid dems eat it up---If Hillary wins the nomination I work very hard to make sure she gets elected.There is not one Bushclone republicans that I would even consider voting for.Karl---please go pedal your trash talk amongst your own party.
It doesn't matter what Rove says, although I do think he is messing with the Democrats' heads.  Common sense dictates that Obama and Edwards would both be more difficult for the Republicans to run against.  And, it is important to consider congressional races (especially in The House).  Hillary will mobilize unfavorable sentiment among Republicans in swing districts.  Even if she might manage a victory in the general election, she will jeopardize Democratic majorities in the Congress.  
    Hillary will also polarize this nation (carrying baggage from her husband's administration) in a way that Bush has done for the past six and a half years.  Our government will continue to be paralyzed by the trench warfare mentally that has seized the works since the Clinton impeachment trials.
Obama '08
well said, Gary.
I always felt Edwards was the stronger candidate in '04, and if Rove did push Kerry, then he deserves kudos and the dems got what they deserved, unfortunately for this country.  Hope the dems can avoid the same mistake twice.
Earth to Cheryl, you are not a democrat so stop acting like one. Karl is that you?
Rove is a clown. Vote democratic!
Mrs. Clinton is gonna kick some ass on election day and the republicans are shaking in their boots. My God, the right wingers had a total meltdown when Bill was in office. They went after him all the time and he still got re-elected. Hillary is their worst enemy. I can't wait til she gets in.
Ms. Clinton is going to get her ass kick if she is nominated and that will be the end of the Democratic party for putting up three consecutive losers.  Don't you know there a more registered republicans in the US than Democrats and the second largest group are Independents.  Hillary is in a stastically dead head against rudy and other candidates.  That means the republicans have a clear shot of winning in 08.  Not all Democrats will support a  Hillary nomination, I am one of them, she will be awful for American.  She doesn't have the ability to pull Republicans and Independents to her side like Obama.  She will fail miserbly and any hope for change is gone.  Vote Obama 08!
you know how ridiculous it is to blindly back a candidate because of they're gender or that it will piss the other party off if they are elected? hillary is already owned by the same people that own rudy giuliani for christs sake, she isn't going to address the issues that need taken care of, her healthcare plan is the same as the repubs, keep the drug and insurance companies rich while working people go without medical care or go bankrupt if they do get it, changes need to be made and hillary has no intentions of making them, she won't even deny that fact, yet some of you keep talking about her as some king of savior, she ain't, she more of the same only with mommy parts
Sorry Jerry - we are all onto the repugnant secret - and by the way, I do like each and every Democratic candidate much better than that load of trash the repugnants are trying to throw at us these days.
Don't worry hon, I vote ( so does every member of my family)and it is never, ever for a repugnant in any race - even local.
Stay dry if you can, if not don't forget your depends.
Susan, Miami You are right!

sonya, atlanta, ga, You are wrong!
I think that it is safe to say, Karl, that whomever receives the Democratic nod will easily be elected over the R counterpart.  How about, who gives a s*** what Karl Rove is thinking or planning?  The current state of this country is a firm result of 6+ years of Bush and over a decade of Republicans being in full control of congress....  I mean, come on - Republicans investigating Clinton over his affair (horrible behavior, I admit), endlessly, yet not able to even provide the slightest bit of oversight with Bush.  Now look at where we are.

jerry brought up Gore - I can only imagine what a different world this would be if the election had not been given to Bush in 2000.
obama seems like a nice guy but can you see the south voting for him?Perhaps in the primaries but not in a general election.Yes Rove is being clever and if the Dems listen to him (like many on this site seem to)you should remember Bushs speech fool me one-----I see Rove is right about one thing---the dem base is weak and have no convictions---they would vote republican rather than democratic if their chosen candidate does not win the primary----guess they are really happy with George and desire some more of the same.
Here's a news flash! This could  be the first sign that the end of the world is nigh! While "Main Stream Media" have been fawning over Karl Rove and accepting his lies without question, a Fox News anchor actually  _was_ fair and balanced in an interview with Rove. Chris Wallace has been caught perpetrating acts of jouranlism by asking Rove hard questions about the Plame scandal that forced Rove to stonewall, dodge, and lie shamelessly. Rupert Murdoch will probably deal a swift and terrible punishment to the turncoat Wallace, whom Rove accused of being an "agent " of Congressman Waxman and Senator Leahy.

"Rove calls Fox host 'agent of Congress' for asking about US Attorney firings"
http://tinyurl.com/2xh8cf

"Peter Fitzpatrick? Rove stumbles during Plame questions"
http://tinyurl.com/2cj22h
United Democrats? United Republicans? Divisive Candidates? What's new?  Let them pick WHOEVER and let us, the Independents, decide.  We'll pick the best one on Merit, thank you. This time, the President will be picked by all of us who sit in the Large-and-Growing-Larger Fully-In-Tune BS Detectors At The Ready Smack-Dab-in-the-Middle "Independent Majority" section.  The Candidates better start sucking up to the Independents or they are Toast.
Jerry, Jerry, Jerry...

As usual, your post about health care showed only that you are gullible and do not know your facts. -or are actually a party ringer (instead of a bozo in a trailer with an internet connection and a little too much time on their hands)...

Didn’t vote for that dog of a prescription drug program... The one that was written by lobbyists and in some case results in seniors paying more, while offering no relief...

Give me a break!

And your comment about the tax free savings accounts is particularly laughable. We are the only first world country that does not have national health insurance and that is a crime. Our citizens should not have to pay for health care, let alone set up saving accounts of any kind to support it.

I have used the medical systems in the US. France, and England and I will place the US dead last in every way. Our system is completely broken and it got that way from one thing. Greed...

It is the insurance companies and HMO's that have destroyed the US health care system.

In fact the only functional health care system I have seen in this country just happens to be government run. My dad is a veteran and is getting care for Alzheimers disease from the VA. I can tell you that they are organized and provide the only care that I have seen in this country that compares to France or England. They are at least more concerned with making you well rather than whether the HMO will pay for it, and you don’t wait a month to see a doctor for the mandated maximum of 15 months...
You Democrat pukes are just sooo scared of Karl.  He says jump, you ask "How high?".  He says take a dump, you ask "What color?"  And to think you Democrats want to be in charge of everything, but you are scared of your own shadows.  You can't even manage to hold yourself together when talking about Karl, or have anyone of your big brave candidates talk to Brit Hume.
When is it going to dawn on all of you that Rove and the Repubs know EXACTLY what they are doing/saying?

No loose cannons on this side of the aisle, not with the current crop of Repub candidates: which DO NOT, REPEAT, DO NOT include Bush, Cheney, Rove, Gonzalez.......

bb: whatsamatta, afraid of what Cheryl is saying, because it just might be the PREVAILING thought process among centrists/Independents??
Jus who is REALLY in the ozone, bb.?
I simply don't understand the idea that, if a candidate not of your choosing gets nominated, you are going to vote for the other party.  If you truly believe the Republican candidate is a better candidate, and better represents your values and your thoughts on the issues, then that is one thing.  I have nothing against people who vote for a candidate without regard to party.  But that's not the case with many people that I see here who say they will vote Republican.  Ask yourselves one thing: will that Republican candidate support the things that I support?  Before answering, please take note that all of the first-tier Republican candidates support staying in Iraq.  Is it worth sacrificing a change in Iraq policy because you didn't get your way at the primaries?
>> Earth to Cheryl, you are not a democrat so stop acting like one.  <<

Yeah Cheryl.  Dumb it down a little for them.


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