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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Iraq

Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2007 9:13 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: ,

The Washington Post on Bush’s speech yesterday: “President Bush defended his ongoing military commitment in Iraq by linking the conflict there to the Vietnam War, arguing Wednesday that withdrawing U.S. troops would lead to widespread death and suffering as it did in Southeast Asia three decades ago… Although his comments played well among the veterans here -- the speech was interrupted with repeated cheers and applause -- the references to the Vietnam conflict, which remains a divisive, emotional issue for many Americans, prompted strong criticism from Democrats.”

VIDEO:  In a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, President Bush compares the Iraq war to U.S. involvment in Asia.

Interestingly, in the White House press office' s "Morning Update," the staff appeared to take pains to find clips of Bush's VFW speech that didn't make the Vietnam comparison. Notice the phrase "far east."

The New York Times adds, “The speech was the beginning of an intense White House initiative to shape the debate on Capitol Hill in September, when the president’s troop buildup will undergo a re-evaluation. It came amid rising concerns in Washington over the performance of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki of Iraq, who has made little progress toward bridging the sectarian divide in his country.”

More: “On Thursday, the administration is planning to make public parts of a sober new report by American intelligence agencies expressing deep doubts that the Maliki government can overcome sectarian differences. Government officials who have seen the report say it gives a bleak outlook on the chances Mr. Maliki can meet milestones intended to promote unity in Iraq.”

George Will writes, "Petraeus's metrics of success might ignite more arguments than they settle. In America, police drug sweeps often produce metrics of success but dealers soon relocate their operations. If Iraqi security forces have become substantially more competent, some Americans will say U.S. forces can depart; if those security forces have not yet substantially improved, the same people will say U.S. forces must depart. Furthermore, will the security forces' competence ultimately serve the Iraqi state -- or a sect?"

On the surge-is-working flap, “Camp Clinton insisted she was talking only about a limited improvement in Anbar, linked to better relations with tribal leaders -- a claim she made to the Daily News in March,” the New York Daily News writes. “The surge was designed to give the Iraqi government time to take steps to ensure a political solution," Clinton said yesterday. "It has failed."

Dodd yesterday released this statement regarding his rivals’ recent statements on the surge in Iraq: "Despite the exemplary performance of our troops, we are coming off the bloodiest summer of this misguided war and it should be clear that there can be no military solution in Iraq. It is useless to argue the merits of a specific tactic when the strategy itself is failed.”

He went on to say, "In fact, debating over military tactics when there is no military solution only undermines efforts by those of us who believe that we must change course in Iraq now and begin to immediately redeploy US combat forces so that Iraqi leaders will have the impetus to find a political accord."

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I find it interesting that Bush would bring up Vietnam, the war he didn't want any part of.  How would he know anything about the Vietnam war since he spent most of it sitting in a bar and doing everything he could to avoid being a real soldier.  I am just waiting for "five deferment Chenney" to compare Iraq and Vietnam.  I find both of them to be cowards by avoiding the killing fields of Vietnam, but having no problem with someone elses sons and daughters to die for a war they thought so necessary.  When it was there turn to do their duty, where were they?
Our president is the biggest lier in the world. Everything and everyone he touches turns to crap!! Hes highly toxic and contagious......
Dubya will just keep playing whack-a-mole and claiming its working till he leaves office. But like runners on base when a pitcher leaves the mound, the mess in Iraq will still belong to him. Anyone who still supports this criminal is either too ignorant to see whats happening or complicit in his crimes.
Sounds like the White House realized they Swift Boated themselves yesterday, and are already Wikipedi-ing their previous diatribe.
One big similarity between nam and iraq is bush/cheney refused to serve their country in nam and today bush/cheney children refuse to serve their country in iraq, yet they want you to sacrifice your kids to the meatgrinder quagmire called iraq today.  Another similarity is just as in nam the US gov't,bush/cheney will blame the iraq gov't for all the problems, will this lead to assinanations of iraq leaders as happened in nam?
what in the world would this idiot know about vietnam.  he was not there.  neither was cheney.  both cowards having no problem sending other people off to war.  absolutely disgusting.  i have also come to the conclusion that if you support the war and you meet the requirements to serve, you should do it.  if you don't, you should zip your lip.  it's easy to sit in the cheap seats and yell.
">in the next world war
>in a jackknifed juggernut
   i am born again
>in the neon sign scrolling up and dwon
   i am born again

..!! in an instella burst i am back to save the universe!!

>in a deep asleep of the inno$ent/completely terrified
        am born again
>in a fAAst     gerRman       CAR
   im amazed that i survived
        an airbag saved my life"

"1421421**airbag"-Radiohead
9 BILLION DOLLARS A DAY TO BE IN IRAQ AND NO END IN SIGHT.
THe WH camgaign of PR for the IRaq war---- will the idiots who voted for bush go for it?

I say yes they will.
OH MY GOD!  Don't you see what Bush is going to do!

1.  He'll say the surge is working.
2.  Because the Iraq government is not working, Bush will replace it before the mid September status report.
3.  Then he will ask for MORE TIME for the new government!
The surge was a means to an end, not the goal.  The goal was to increase security so that the Iraqi government could solidify and reconcile so that they could improve electricity, health care, oil production, education, etc.. Since none of this has happened and all of these indicators are at pre-war levels it amazes me to see that the American people can be so easily swayed by the Bush/Rove/Cheney spin machine to change their minds on the success of the surge.

It appears that their definition of success is that there is less chaos than before and that there were less Americans and Iraquis killed in the last couple of months than the preceding months.  Without some political resolution any supposed temporary gains will go for nought.  The military itself has said that they can not maintain the surge past April 08, so what happens then?  The Shite factions will continue to fight each other and the Sunnis.  The Sunnis will continue to fight AlQuada and the Shites, the Kurds will remain out of the fray sitting on the oil refusing to fly the Iraqi flag or share the oil and continue to attack Turkey.  The success in Analbar province is due to us arming insurgents against the central government so that they can rid themselves of Alqada. This is temporary once they have accomplished this they will then use these weapons against us and the Central government if you can call it that.  

Again reconciliation was the goal of the surge, it is not happening therefore even if it has temporarily suppressed some of the violence it can not be a success.  We need a Biden/Iraqi bi-parison work group type solution to the problem not some lame analagies to Viet Namn.  George the divider is at it again.
The president is a bigger idiot than even I believed and I thought he was a big idiot to begin with. For a history major from Yale (must have concentrated on he history of drinking games), he missed the biggest lesson of all, don't get stuck in a quagmire. Since Dubya has gotten everything wrong up until now, what makes you think he is correct on this point; the Law of Large Numbers?
The president is a bigger idiot than even I believed and I thought he was a big idiot to begin with. For a history major from Yale (mut have concentrated on he history of drinking games), he missed the biggest lesson of all, don't get stuck in a quagmire. Since Dubya has gotten everything wrong up until now, what makes you think he is correct on this point; the Law of Large Numbers?
The President made the point that seeing it through will be effective. Respectfully, I don't think that's the issue.

The real issue to me is that whether we stay or go we will still have to fight al-Qaeda. They clearly have a regional and global agenda. Leaving won't end it.

So let's ask ourselves: will staying in Iraq help us or hinder us in the next phase of the battle with al-Qaeda and make our decisions based on that assessment.
Vietnam responded to The Bush vietnam war speech today.They say that more of their people would have lived if the U.S. would have pulled out a lot sooner than they did.They blame us for the deaths.Let Bush wrap his lying tongue around this---but it will probably be executive privilage for him----again
The Vietnam reference was interesting, and surprising. I sure didn't seem that tack coming.

The thing about Vietnam is, while the situation may have gotten bad in the immediate aftermath, its certainly better now. For me, its kind of a reminder that the rest of the world can function without U.S. oversight.
Bush said what he really believes in  a June 2007 speech that someone listed the link to yesterday:

He said the only reason we haven't won in Iraq is that the U.S. military isn't very good.  He said the admionistration as executed all the plans flawlessly.  He went on to say that mnay of the people in the military dont even have college educations, that we haven't won a  war since WWII and barely won that one.  
Gee...I want to serve under this guy if I'm in the military!

What kind of signal is that speech giving to our enemies?  Soounds like a green light to attack us!
Well, it looks as if the Administration has finally recognized that there are similarities between the Irag invasion and Viet Nam - something most Americans have known since day one.  Time to roll out the old slogans - 'Light at the end of the tunnel', 'pacification', 'escalation', "domino theory' etc. Another one that comes to mind, "Hell no, we won't go!"

I have it figured out, don't you? In the long view, a few thousand dead Americans is worth the price of having a base in the Middle East. The disintegration of Iraq, to people who believe an American President must put American interests first, is not our concern. This is why Bush is so sanguine. When the American people understand the Bush point of view, then they will realize why he says history will judge his Presidency a success. Really, if we are to debate Iraq, we should be clear about the true goals of the mission (its not bringing democracy to that part of the world.)
Bush’s circular logic comparing Iraq to Vietnam may play well with the choir but it is a leaky (Swift?) boat. The logic implies that if we’d “stayed the course” in Vietnam “millions of innocent citizens” would not have had to pay the price for our withdrawal. This assumes, as in Iraq, another year or ten or twenty years would eventually win the war. If we were still fighting in Vietnam now, thirty years later, I’m sure the speech would still be about “staying the course”.
You people need to ditch all your Presidential candidates, because none have served, none have family serving, and all have talked about sending troops around the world.
So for all you 'Bush Haters', what is your solution to Iraq, just pull out and leave?  What do you think the 'unintended consequences' of a move like that are?  Do you really believe the terrorists that are left will just stop the killing a leave us alone here.  You all talk about 'get out now at all costs'...so what then?  We all agree that Iraq is a mess and that we want the war to end asap.  However, the threat from Islamic Terrorists is not limited to Iraq alone, and they will not leave us alone under any circumstances.  So is the President's main theme correct....fight them over there or fight them here?? What happens to the middle east if we leave?  Do we give the terrorists more reason to 'come after us' because they feel like they have achieved a victory over America?  The bottom line is that the situation is much more complex than 'just leaving Iraq'.  For those who want to critize my comments, let's focus on the solution from this point on...we can argue for ever about the mistakes made by Bush, ect.  The point now is 'what do we do'!!
If 162,000 heavily armed soldiers supported by airpower were "surged' into any city, improving security would surely improve.  But the question is, what happens when those troops leave?  Bush sees no end to U.S. involvement in Iraq, certainly not under his administration.  The idea that "victory" is within the grasp of the Iraqi government because of this latest surge defies logic. Instead of comparing Vietnam to Iraq (a comparison which, in the past, Bush has vehemently opposed), he should he should read a few books about the Crusades and the repeated defeat of European armies bent on "democratizing" the Middle East.  We have more than enough problems with our own democracy under this President.  Continually trying to militarily salvage our disastrous invasion of Iraq is yet another example of Bush's tunnel vision and stubborness.  
WE are out of time in IRAQ, we are out of troops to send to their deaths in Iraq.
We are out of time for Bush to set up another failed puppet, he can not pick very well now can he.
We are out of trust in the failed president bush.  
WE ARE OUT OF MONEY TO FUND A FAILED WAR.
Yes, Iraq is very much like Vietnam.  We went into a place we didn't understand based on faulty reasoning, became a full-fledged war on exaggerated and fabricated evidence, we installed a puppet government that can't get anything done because it has no legitimacy in the eyes of the people, and our brave soldiers continue to bleed and die because those at the top can't figure out how to end it and can't admit they're wrong.  Lower classes die while those who are already rich make a financial killing and cry out for expansion and continuation without having to sacrifice or serve.  Sounds like Vietnam to me.
The problems in Iraq are the fault of Sunni insurgents....no, it's Shite militias...no wait, It's Iranian influnce...no it's Al-Quaeda...no wait, it's al-Maliki...guess in this administration, the buck never stops...who will we blame next...news at 11:00...stay tuned.
"Silent Night"-Simon and Garfunkel
"During his trip to Iraq last week, Senator Levin ... confirmed that the Iraqi government is nonfunctional and cannot produce a political settlement because it is too beholden to religious and sectarian leaders," Clinton said. "I share Senator Levin's hope that the Iraqi Parliament will replace Prime Minister Maliki with a less divisive and more unifying figure when it returns in a few weeks."

Sounds pretty much like the U.S. Government to me.!

"I support him," Bush said. "It's not up to the politicians in Washington, D.C., to say whether he will remain in his position. It is up to the Iraqi
people who now live in a democracy and not a dictatorship."

Again I say it sounds a lot like the U.S. Government to me!
to Newark,

Here is the best solution so far.  Divide the country into 3 (kurds, sunnis and shiites).  develop an oil sharing platform so each group is represented equally.  This idea gets dismissed by the repiglicans that got us into this mess, but will end up being the answer three years from now.  second, when we bring the majority of troops home, have them stop off in the tora bora region and kill the son of a bit#h that started this mess.  Third, when they come home, they can guard our border and we can develop a team that can check incoming containers.
Newark, the destiny of widespread suffering and bloodshed was set when the neocons decided that destabilizing the Middle East would lead to democracies growing like wildflowers out of nothing.  Now the debate needs to be how to get out with the least damage.  Fighting terrorist there so we don't fight them here has always been a straw man.  It's further oversimplified by referring to all "Islamic terrorists" as if they're interchangeable parts.  The vast majority of violence in Iraq is either trying to expel an occupying force (us) or Shia and Sunni elements trying to get a jump on the civil war.  None of them have any interest in following us anywhere, like Palestinians in the occupied territories, Hezbollah in Lebanon, and numerous other groups.  Virtually the only successes against international terrorist groups have been made by good police work, which is where our efforts should be concentrated.  The success of the Iraqi war has been mostly in recruiting more terrorists, even Rumsfeld wondered about that in internal documents.  As for mistakes, the biggest mistake is the same one Americans have been making since the end of WWII.  War rarely wins us real friends and mostly just creates new enemies.  Lest you doubt that look at the history of Iran, whose people still hate America for overthrowing a legitimate government to install the Shah.  How's that working out for us?
And it happens like this, on a blue day of sun,
when Private Miller pulls the trigger
to take brass and fire into his mouth:
the sound lifts the birds up off the water,
a mongoose pauses under the orange trees,
and nothing can stop it now, no matter what
blur of motion surrounds him, no matter what voices
crackle over the radio in static confusion,
because if only for this moment the earth is stilled,
and Private Miller has found what low hush there is
down in the eucalyptus shade, there by the river.

                Eulogy for PFC B. Miller
                -Brian Turner, poet and veteran
There is a simple solution to Iraq. Bush and Cheney need to step down.
All you bush haters.... We are legion.
I find it ironic that Ann Richard saying arises about George H. W. Bush it has to be repeated for his son.  Remember "When George opens his mouth, the only thing that happens is he puts his foot in his mouth"  The Apple doesn't fall very far from the tree.

Repeat after me "The Surge is working" "The Surge is working"  Just another $139 Billion and 5 more years.

Maliki is a good man and I trust him over the politicans in Washington. What does George want, two guesses, the first don't count,
Ahmad Chalibi in power of Iraq. That would certainly fill out the dominate rule of the Shi'ite in Iraq. This man still has power to say who can and can't work for the Iraqi government.  

Wait!! isn't he the same person that spreads the Pentagon lies to Judy Miller of the NYTimes in Oct. 2002 about the WMDs of Saddam Arsenal, that lead us into this cesspool in Iraq?
Let Bush wrap his lying tounge around my little eviction..err..election..I meant erec  mmmmffffll  
John B said: "the neocons decided that destabilizing the Middle East would lead to democracies growing like wildflowers out of nothing."

I believe those are known as Turd Blossoms and the don't grow out of nothing; they grow out of the their fertile minds.
Newark, NJ, if you want solutions we only need to look at the Iraqi's.  It is their country not ours.  It is time to leave and let them figure out their problems.  As I said before, The Military Can Not Rebuild a Country POLITICALLY.
Bob Lippoop: You sound more ignorant everyday...What makes you think you are soooo smart. You sound like a 1960's throwback. Seems we have a lot of political commentators from that era these days.
John B - great post response to Newark.  I found myself thinking the same things while reading his/her post - oversimplified understanding of the situation.  The sort of understanding that the Bush administration would like for all of us to have.
A song for those who miss their wives, their mamas, our soldiers-"Aint No Sunshine When She's Gone"-Bill Withers
Newark--- In order to understand Iraq we must put ourselves in their place. They were attacked without provocation, their leader was killed, a corrupt puppet government was put in place and a hundred thousand of their people were killed, all for money. As long as the people that did this are in Iraq they will be hated and every new person killed will multiply that hate. It’s just a matter of time before we have a war that spans the whole mid-east. As for fighting them over there or here the same was said about Vietnam and I don’t remember any black pajamas marching down our streets after we left Vietnam. This is a stupid war started by lies all for money. Lets piss on the fire and call it a night.
To: Newark NJ
  I completely understand your logic; it seems to make no sense to walk away from a war that is not won or lost yet. It feels like just handing the terrorists a victory and letting them know they can do anything they want and we won’t stop them. Some perspective from history is what gives me hope: the Soviets had the same worries in Afghanistan in the 1980’s. Their fear was that if they allowed the Islamic Mujahideen insurgents to overthrow Soviet rule, it would set a president for the other Soviet satellite countries. After nearly a ten year war the Soviets had to walk away from Afghanistan. Some believe the cost of this war contributed to the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union. Their satellite countries did fail but not directly because of Afghanistan.
 Another example is Vietnam. Yes, Vietnam fell to the communists and it was a bloodbath in the short term. But, within twenty years the country began to accept many western ideals, especially economically. Now, the U.S. is a serious trading partner with Vietnam and President Bush visited there himself recently! If you have faith in the American way of life because it is the right way (proven by my examples) then let things take their course, help countries develop where you can, and stay the heck out of their government and military! Have faith that “right is might”, and we will persevere, we always have!
This empty Decider has had nothing that is important to say, an empty head, no knowledge and nobody is even paying attention.
Jackson you sir are the ignorant one! Bob has more life experience and wisdom in his little toe than you in your x generation head.
Interesting I was just reading another story about TEXAS. Seems another guy from you generation stuffed a 2 year old in a clothes dryer. Why don't you go see if you can help, that's what Bob would do.
And he is correct in what he posted.
Newark, the pollution that permeates your city has you confused. Was Iraq the cause of the 9/11 attack? NO! Were any Iraqis involved in 9/11? NO! Still Crazy, rock on, brother.
All they are saying, is give war a chance (with apologies to John Lennon).
Would some "believer" please tell me exactly how many American lives need to be lost before... Mike Adelson, Cambria, CA (Sent Wednesday, August 22, 2007 5:23 PM)

Responding to this and a similar request yesterday.

Do you know how many years it took to get Japan settled on a path to democracy after World War II - they had an emperor who we overthrew and replaced with a consitutional democracy (constituition to a great extent written by us)?

Do you know how many years it took to get Germany, after its dictatorship under Hitler, settled on a path to democracy?

Are you aware of the billions (when billions were real money) we spent under the Marshall Plan rebuilding Europe after World War II?

Are you aware of how many years the border with North Korea had active fighting and how long it took to help South Korea settle into a democracy?

Are you aware of how much people in those countries did not love us or want us there during the early years?

Were those expenditures in lives and dollars worth the cost?

We only talk about our one big failure - Vietnam.  We don't talk about the many successes.  Do you know that there were many people here who wanted us to bail out on all of those efforts at the time?

If you are old enough to remember all those times, as I do, you know they were very difficult times.  There were a lot of people who wanted to quit.  We are at the very beginning of a many year process of trying to bring the Middle East into modern times with democratic societies.  It is going to take many years, many lives and many dollars.  But they will all be just as worthwhile as the years, lives and dollars spent to "save" Japan, Germany, South Korea, etc.
I'm still sticking to my original prediction, (made to friends when this fiasco first started), that Bush will, before leaving office, use his political powers to reinstate the draft. There was one small story on the issue a week or more ago, then nothing else said. THEN, we would truly be able to compare Iraq and Vietnam.
For those missing their wives, their mamas our citizens, "Aint no sunshine when she's gone, Only clouds when she's away"-"Aint No Sunshine"-Bill Withers
Newark, the first best thing we should have done was never enter Iraq in the first place.  However, since we are there, here is my solution.

1) Instead of arming Iraqis who support us and bitching about Iran supporting those who don't, why not propose that all militias disarm and ask the United Nations to collect those arms.  Our ability to bet trusted by all factions of the Iraqis (except, maybe, the Kurds) has been seriously compromised by our actions there and they would never turn their guns over to the US forces;

2)  Redeploy our troops to the border areas where they can prevent new fighters and arms coming into the country (An aside here: How can we secure the US Borders if we can't secure those the size of Iraq?);

3)  Once the arms are collected and the borders secured, then do another set of elections so people can vote without being intimidated by armed militias;

4)  US Troops' combat role should be limited to engaging al-Quaida and keeping them from disrupting elections.

5)  Once election are held, begin pulling troops out of Iraq, while still defending the border, and leave mostly trainers to help build a new Army and Police Force, and engineers to help rebuild the country.

    If Iraqis do not want to disarm and form their own government, our troops should leave immediately.  If they don't care enough to get it together, why should we send our young men and women to die for them?


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