Kathy, Anacortes, WA--This is a secular country and will remain a secular country. The day it becomes a theocracy of any flavor is the day that the great experiment ends in failure. Worship whatever you want to in peace in your home, in your church and out on the street corner if you choose. Don't force your choice on me through law. Stay out of my children's face in the SECULAR PUBLIC SCHOOLS that we all share. Don't tread on me!

Bionic Women: Of course this race is different than 04, but the fact that the candidates are different has nothing to do with the fact that most people are not closely following the race, haven't made up their minds, etc. That said I see one major similarity between 03/04 and 07/08. In 03 Dean had a great organization, was "on fire" nationally, and attracted great crowds. Not Obama size, but much larger than Hillary's crowds unless she brings Bill. Those people who caucused for Dean had committed to him early, and they were ardent supporters. They didn't just see him as the best, but as a savior (only a slight exaggeration). Their support for him was almost blind devotion. They did not want to hear anything about electability issues, etc. Dean's support, on the ground was large early on, but he was not able to attract additional supporters in the fall and early winter. Most of Dean's supporters did not leave him by January, the idea that the "Dated Dean, Married Kerry" bumper sticker represented a true phenomenon among Dean supporters before the caucus is wrong. The Dean supports did back Kerry after Kerry won the nomination, but most of his early supporters stayed with him through out the caucus. The 82% of Iowa Democrat caucus goers who had not supported Dean by September had already rejected him as their candidate. Some were vehemently anti-Dean and mad that his supporters didn't understand he had no choice, and would take the party down, others were less angry, but still rejected him as an electable candidate. Pundits  have come up with many reasons for Dean's poor 3rd place showing. Most are totally off (the main explanation was Gephardt and Dean's negative ads pulled them both down-WRONG) The ads didn't  cause Dean votes, he had already reached close to his maximum level of support early. There is a parallel between Dean and Hillary. Hillary has a lot of support, much of her support is totally committed. Many view her as larger than life etc. She is well organized and her campaign is working hard, but there was a reason why one of her top aides suggested in a memo that was later leaked, that she should by-pass Iowa. Most Iowa caucus goers place a high priority on electability.   82% of Iowa caucus goers determined by 1/19/04 that Dean was not electable, this determination was made as Iowans got to know the candidate. Most of us had never heard of him until the spring of 03. Many who found him unelectable felt he would be a great President, and personally agreed with him and liked him, few people hated or disliked him personally. Like Dean a very large percent of Iowa Democrat caucus goers do not believe Hillary can win the general election, and they have (and will reject her for that reason), and there is a small percent that really can't stand her. However the small % of Iowa caucus goers that literally hate Hillary is greater than the handful of people who couldn't stomach Dean prior to the caucus. Unlike Dean who came into Iowa with a clean slate, people have formed their opinions about Hillary long ago.

I do not hate Hillary Clinton. In my office is a picture taken in late September of 02 at a fund raiser for Dr. Juliane Thomas (who was running for congress)at Hillary's home in DC. And I have an autographed picture of Hillary holding my daughter in 1996 the night before the election. I don't think she is the best qualified, or most experienced candidate, but I believe that she would be a great President IF she were ever President. However I do not believe she can win the general election. She has the highest negatives of any candidate this early in the process.  Even her biggest backer Terry McAulf (sp) admitted on hardball that she can gain some in her positives, but that negatives are very hard to change. The election is decided not by partisans, but by non-partisans. Unfortunately Hillary's negatives with the  non-partisan electorate is very high, and the chance the she could be elected is very remote. Hillary supporters don't want to accept, or even consider this, but if they were able to analyze the race in a non-emotional dispassionate manner, they would understand reality. The fact that Hillary is not electable is mostly unfair. Most of the negative opinion of Hillary is unfair. It drove me nuts in 92, prior to a single White House scandal (travel gate, White Water, Rose law firm billing records, etc.)how many people hated her. What was so infuriating was how many people who hated Hillary thought so highly of Elizabeth Dole. Every quality or characteristic that they gave for hating Hillary, was as much if not more prevalent in Dole. Unlike Dole who married a divorced man, and put her career ahead of having a family. Hillary had a child, and by all accounts in 92 (and since then) she has been a devoted mother, and did a great job raising her daughter. But you couldn't reason with these people they hated her, and those feelings were deep. Since 1992 the number of people who do not like Hillary has grown, and if she is the nominee she will be attacked like never seen before, she will bring out a huge turn out, and most likely the next President will be a Republican.

You're also wrong about Obama and Edwards being in the way of anyone else getting traction, you are right that Hillary is a magnet for attention, but you seem to ignore that magnet attracts both good and bad attention. There is a reason why the GOP's most successful fund raising campaigns feature Hillary Clinton. The national MSM and to a lesser degree the local media report far more heavily on Hillary, how, they did this with Dean also. At the Live strong forum the crowd was far more receptive to Edwards than Hillary. Even Kucinich had louder applause  than Hillary, despite their being 20% fewer people by the time he spoke. Iowa will make its decision based upon what is happening on the ground not in the media.

I agree that Dodd is unlikely to break out of Iowa. However, Biden has a real chance to do so.

Thank you Gary in Montana.

It's STILL a lock for Hillary, and when the Republican Swiftboaters League sink her candidacy and a shrub clone is in the White House, the STUPID Dems will stand around scratching their heads like they did the past two elections (and did all through the '80s) and wonder what went wrong?

The "poll figures" cited here by some of the more politically pious are little more than window dressing. Merely quoting them or referring to them demonstrates one's amateur standing.
The polls that campaigns use are private, expensive, reflecting trends and tweaks that most in the public never see.
The Rasmussen poll is not a player.  And neither are those the news mags screech from their covers.

This board is an "opinion" board actually read by various campaigns for "opinion" sampling.  All this silly Rasmussen stuff is just a distraction and virtually useless.

But, whatever floats your boat...

Gary: AMEN!

Kathy - are you talking about those who see marriage between one man and one woman(that is really the only thing recognized in the Bible - no second living spouse), if that is the case, your side is running pretty short on options.  At least the 3 top tier Democratic candidates are still married to their original spouses (and that means something to me), they are not "living" with other people that the law lets them use as a tax deduction. Even if some thing Bill & Hillary's marriage is a sham, at least they still are in it til death do us party, not til divorce do us part.  And Elizabeth and John Edwards are the prime example of a true and loving marriage.
On a personal level I don't belive in abortion (so thankful I never had the medical need for one), but you obviously have never had to witness the choice some parents have to make when they find out their child will be deformed for life, very likely could outlive them, and there is no one who will take care of that child after they are dead.  Not an easy one, so please don't try to make it one.  By the way, you and me - the taxpayers are the folks who pay for those children born with special needs who outlive their parents.  Are you one who does not want to have healthcare for all?
Life is wonderful, quality of life is precious.

My final comment here for awhile is a response to Class Warrior.  

I hesitate to write this because it may compromise me in certain situations. Here goes and I'm outa here.

Warrior, what you say has much merit.  But I can tell you with assurance that the Clintons are more than prepared for the swiftboaters.  Those guys were amateurs as was Kerry.

The Clintons see themselves as "class warriors" and they are prepared to unleash hell on whatever gets in their way.  Watch for the swiftboarders to get suckerpunched right when they (and we) least expect it.  

They did it to Bush 1 (completely off the record, but the Bush people know what I mean) and brought down "the house that Ronnie built."

They may be bleeding heart liberals of a certain flavor, but they will use brass knuckles, and more, when the battle is pitched.

It all goes back a long time to a graduate thesis about Democrats not knowing how to fight... that old paper has ruled the Clinton mindset from the mists.  Don't worry about Hillary, you might better worry about her adversaries.

Does anyone re3member Edmund Muskie ?
He was the overwhelming favorite in 1972.
All the insiders and the whole Democratic establishment supported him.

He didn't make it !!

Let's not be lemmings
Don't settle for unethical political hacks !!
Don't settle for Bush-lite !!
Let's nominate a REAL DEMOCRAT !!

Hillary Clinton,
15 years of dishonesty, scandal and political polarization

Gary: Perhaps you can share your thoughts on Hillarys New York City using public monies to fund Islamic schools. Now. When we think of ''theocracies'',Caliphates and ''12th Imams''usually do not come to mind. This will change however,as Americas Islamic population continues to grow. You will instantly find,however,that unlike Judaism and Christianity,there is no such thing a ''reform'' or ''liberal''branch of Islam. They do not exist. The few,tiny numbers of reformers are under threat for their lives. Indeed,the specific goal of Islam,including here in the US,is to establish a theocracy. At the moment,it is the only major religion on the planet to use violence to achieve this goal.

Gary - I second Mark's AMEN.  I generally could care less what other people choose to believe...up to the point where your belief tries to prevent me from acting in accordance with my belief.  Then we are going to have a problem.

And Kathy?  It's not about alive or dead, it's about viability.  That is the legal standard, whether you like it or not.

Lee Holmes--Hillary is mayor of New York?
News to me. I am not a citizen of either the city or state of New York but if I were I would be screaming at the top of my lungs. As loudly as I would scream in my own state if school vouchers were ever used to pull money out of the public secular school system to fund parents who wish to send their children to Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Hindu, buddhist, Shinto or Satanic cult schools. The Secular Public school system in this country needs to work. It's curriculum needs to be free from ALL magic and superstition. It is a priority that we can not afford to ignore. It should be the basis of equality in America. I am sure, Lee, that a man of your political persuasion  has already given up on the idea of fully funded, working, public schools but that is the nature of a Political Party that hates government. The idea of allowing that Party to govern makes about as much sense as putting Quakers in charge of the Military.
As for your ominous "Islamic take over of the west paranoia", your fears are dependent on the view that no one will oppose it politically. That we will just all bow down and help elect radical islamists to key government positions. As for the violence, well the human race is a violent warlike species. Violence in a civil setting is a law enforcement problem. Unfortunately the times we live in require stepped up law enforcement efforts. We give law enforcement the tools they need to identify threats including profiling. We stop searching 75 year old grandmas from Minnesota and we adopt the Israeli model of TRAINING our TSA to read people not collect nail files. If we uncover plots then we smash them. If foreign nationals in our country engage commit acts of terrorism that result in death than we try them and execute them under the same laws that we live. WE DO NOT give up our freedoms for any false security. WE DO NOT change our system. We hold our system up to the world and announce that we believe in it and that it won't be destroyed and that we will use it to beat our enemies and still keep our soul. We become world leaders again  by leading with our example. And finally, we hold our national leaders accountable for a coherent foreign policy that does not respond to horrendous mass murder  committed by a group of religious fanatics by invading the false nation of a two bit dictator, breaking it, and becoming morally bound to pissing blood an money for a lost cause that hurts our security and does nothing to catch and kill the perpetrators of the original crime. I don't wish to to be hurtful and insulting but the only description that comes to mind is DUMB.

Amen again , but this country is about MONEY and POWER.
The power people have done away with the middle class and have taken FULL control.  They rule the courts, the schools, health care, insurance and our government.  They keep the little people praying and praying so they think they are fighting the devils, it is all so contrived.

Gary I believe as you, get out of my face and my taxed backed schools and take your beliefs to your house and pray away, away from me.
There is no POWER in any prayers, only scant comfort for the ones that give credence to the liars and power hungry men who run the religions in this world.
OH and don't forget to snd them MONEY lots of it!

HP Boston-
Agreed. I think that the middle class has been losing since the Reagan administration. This period of Republican resurgence has gone hand in hand with the rise of corporate control of this nation. Unfortunately to many Democratic lawmakers have joined their Republican brethren at the trough. Real reform is badly needed. I hope to hear more of that talk from the Democratic stable of candidates. I know I am leaning on Montana's newly Blue Senate contingent to walk the walk.

Gary,
While you are at it, vote for Steve Bullock early and often. The national party is looking at that race.  Bullock could be a player if he gets some money to wage a competitive campaign.

This is a secular country and will remain a secular country.

========

Wanna hand over all that religious money of yours Gary?  You know that stuff that says "In God We Trust".

Read your history a little closer, oohh, go back to about the 1600's or so, and read a little about why those people from Europe came here.

Secular indeed.   Sounds like you're in a bit of denial to how this country was formed.  I know, I know, it's Bush's fault.

Frank Winters--Yes, secular in fact. Our fore fathers came here to avoid a state imposed religion. Then in Salem they burned, pressed and drowned citizens accused of witchcraft. That it happened in the 1600's just reveals that hypocrisy is timeless. You should read your Jefferson and Madison a little closer and then try to deal with your own denial.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

"The civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability, and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State." - James Madison

I know, I know, it's Clinton's fault.

Yes and the 7 year old who amazes me with his early wisdom has asked why under god is in the pledge of allegiance.  I told him it is not, take it out. It was not there when I went to school and was inserted on some freakish whim.  WE pledge without any under god stuff.

Gary, Mark, Carrie outstanding posts.  Thanks.

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