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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Iraq

Posted: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:16 AM by Domenico Montanaro
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Per NBC/NJ’s Aswini Anburajan, Obama in his speech today will lay out a detailed withdrawal plan from Iraq, and map out what American foreign policy would look like under an Obama presidency. Obama spokeswoman Jen Psaki says, "Obama will outline what this war has cost us as a nation and lay out his plan for ending the war -- with new policy proposals on troop withdrawals, diplomacy within Iraq and offer aggressive action to deal with Iraq's humanitarian crisis: and talk about what American can accomplish in the world once we end the war."

According to excerpts the campaign has released, Obama will say: “There is something unreal about the debate that’s taking place in Washington… The bar for success is so low that it is almost buried in the sand. The American people have had enough of the shifting spin. We’ve had enough of extended deadlines for benchmarks that go unmet. We’ve had enough of mounting costs in Iraq and missed opportunities around the world. We’ve had enough of a war that should never have been authorized and should never have been waged.”

More: "I opposed this war from the beginning. I opposed the war in 2002. I opposed it in 2003. I opposed it in 2004. I opposed it in 2005. I opposed it in 2006. I introduced a plan in January to remove all of our combat brigades by next March. And I am here to say that we have to begin to end this war now.”

The AP notes that Obama will be introduced by Zbigniew Brzezinski, Carter’s national security advisor. Brzezinski has endorsed Obama, but this is his first appearance with the campaign.

President Bush will give a primetime address on Thursday on endorsing Petraeus' recommendations. The Washington Post: “White House aides said they are working on a 20-minute prime-time speech that Bush will give tomorrow night, in which he will endorse the main elements of the strategy outlined by Petraeus and Crocker on Capitol Hill this week. They said the president plans to emphasize that he is in a position to order troop cuts only because of the success achieved on the ground in Iraq, and that he is not being swayed by political opposition. Aides said that he plans to outline once again what he sees as the dire consequences of failure in Iraq and that he will make the troop cuts conditional on continued military gains.”

The New York Times says that Petraeus and Crocker  “conceded Tuesday that the Bush administration’s overall strategy in Iraq would remain largely unchanged after the temporary increase in American forces is over next summer, and made clear their view that the United States would need a major troop presence in Iraq for years to come… The clashes over war strategy were more intense and emotional than had unfolded during the previous day in the House, reflecting the powerful passions and ambitions of a Senate that includes five presidential aspirants.” 

Speaking of, here’s a look at what presidential candidates said during the hearings, per the Boston Globe’s front-page story…
BIDEN: "The American people will not support an indefinite role whose sole remaining purpose is to prevent the situation in Iraq from becoming even worse.” The Globe also writes that Biden “seemed less interested in data than anecdote.”
CLINTON: “The reports you provided to us require the willing suspension of disbelief.” She called Petraeus and Crocker “the de facto spokesmen of what many of us consider to be a failed policy.”
EDWARDS (in a statement): "It's time for Congress to act. They must stand firm and tell President Bush with one voice: No timetable, no funding. No excuses."
MCCAIN: “I believe we cannot choose to lose in Iraq.”
OBAMA: "You said in this testimony that it's political, the reason for the success in Anbar [province], not because of an increase in troop strength."

The Washington Post’s Dana Milbank yesterday spied an Obama campaign memo, which read: “As you get ready for press around your speech on Iraq, we wanted to make sure you have on one piece of paper the principle [sic] differences between your speech on Iraq and the most comprehensive on Iraq given by Senator Clinton.” Milbank writes, “It isn't entirely surprising that he would be preparing some political barbs for the Democratic front-runner… Still, Obama's juxtaposition -- contemplating the nakedly political as he prepared to question the top U.S. general in Iraq and the U.S. ambassador to Iraq -- was stark.” More: Biden “displayed his disdain for the more popular Obama by conspicuously reading a newspaper while the Illinois senator questioned the witnesses.”

The Hartford Courant covered Dodd’s questions to Petraeus yesterday. “Dodd seemed incredulous [of the assertion that the surge is working]. ‘I don't seem to get any indication, don't get a feeling here that there's any real opportunity or optimism, that this is going to get better,’ the senator said.”

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When Warner asked petraus if the iraq war was making America safe, petraus said he did not know.  If the top military commander in iraq does not know if the war is making america safe then why are we there, as that is suppossidly the reason we attacked iraq.  the bush political hacks obviously forgot to give petraus his talking points.  In watching petraus he did not know much about iran either, he said he was focused solely on the surge, sounds like tunnel vision to me, see only what is directly in front of you but not the BIG picture, a piss poor way to do things.
Talk is cheap Obama.

Tell us exactly, what have you ever accomplished in your political life?
President Hillary Clinton. 2008 - 2016

President John Edwards. 2016 - 2024
I see its snide remark on Obama day..Ok, but you forgot to mention something else Milbank mentioned in his article of note:

Clinton, herself a member of the Armed Services Committee, at first entered the hearing room largely unnoticed; she then left and reentered moments later as part of Petraeus's entourage -- basking in the clicks of hundreds of camera shutters.

I wonder why she did this?

I don't hear discussion of the facts on the most important question on the Iraq war.  Will more Iraqis die if we stay or go?  Isn't helping the Iraqis the latest neocon justification for continuing war (#17 I believe)?  I believe the record shows that many more have died because we invaded and occupied Iraq than if we had stayed the course with UN containment. Any reason to believe that equation will change as we stay longer?
And we still can't get enough votes from the rotten, stinken repubs to end this horror of a war. Discusting!
Obama is a brilliant man. Intelligent and so well spoken. What a stark contrast to the pathetic little man currently displacing the atmosphere in the White House. Iraq is a collossal mess thanks to GW and his enablers. It wll not get better until he's gone.
What, exactly has GWB ever accomplished in his political life?
Taylor Mader, Charleston, WV--What he has accomplished, what the entire Democratic field has accomplished for me is the restoration of hope for leadership after years of hopelessly inept leadership.
Taylor Mader...clearly you haven't been listening to Obama, cause he's been telling us and showing us what he has accomplished in his political life.  If you want to find some information on your own, you might try doing some reading yourself.  Here are a couple website you might try.  
http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm

http://www.barackobama.com/index.php

And then here's his Senate website with lots more information about what he's currently doing in the US senate.
http://obama.senate.gov

I hope these help.  Then you'll be better informed and wont make such an ignorant statement.
Taylor: Given the chance Obama would accomplish more to put our country on the right path, in 1 year, than GW has in two full terms. Obama---intelligence + integrity = success. George W---lies + incompetence = failure.
Tell us, Hillary, what have -YOU- accomplished in your political life?

It's nice to see one of the Presidential candidates give a detailed explanation of how they will end the war instead of the endless amounts of rhetoric we've been hearing out of people like Hillary. Then again, we've heard absolutely nothing concrete about what she'd do, just that she'd "change" the current direction. Change it how? Change it when? Where will these changes come? It's so sad watching all the people that support her and picture lemmings falling off a cliff.

On another note, if Dubya's speech is going to be 20 minutes, does that mean his staff only needs to write a 7-14 minute speech given his near impossible to watch delivery?
ex-. You've got it right. There is no light at the end of THIS tunnel, but maybe Petraeus has been looking at Dubya's Colonoscopy Video.  They send a light in with the camera, which has probably fooled him. Taylor. As compared to what?  Dubya's mess?
When Bush addresses the nation, he will mainly be targeting those who are still silly enough to believe his crazy BS. It has been quite a while since he has had the attention of anyone but fools. Obama makes good sense, but I don't see that it should require rocket science to arrive at his position. The main problem with Obama's stance is that it isn't what heads of corporations can get behind, not because it doesn't make sense. So, you're not going to get the kind of government Obama stands for by anything short of an Americanized version of the Chinese cultural revolution, and that won't happen until liberals start buying guns. Liberals, then, are telling them they have nothing to fear. Therefore, no problems ahead for the upper upper classes. That spells Hillary for our next president. And I notice that Domenico is telling us that the principal can be more than just your pal.
I am sick and tired of politician who doesn't have the gut to speak the truth to the American people. Obama is right on this issue of iraq. What is the strategy for getting out? All we've seen so far is tactical measure.
I find it quite hilarious that "White Flag Treasonous Democrats" are going to lecture us on foreign policy or military operations?  Their disdain for our four star general in harms way should be the tell tell sign of their military loathing not to mention Dennis Kucinich coming to you live from Syria stating that Iraq was an "Illegal War".  And let's talk about cherry picking!  These misfits cherry pick the NIE all the time and at other times they discredit it, as was the case with the Iraq WMD, and all for political expediency and POWER .  Fortunately for them they get the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, where they're right 100% of the time.  Bravo...they are such forward thinking giants.
In the interest of full disclosure I must confess that the following makes me CRAZY!!

"Every investigation has shown that Iraq did not, in fact, have anything to do with the Sept. 11 attacks. But the ad, part of a new $15 million media blitz launched by an advocacy group allied with the White House, may be the most overt attempt during the current debate in Congress over the war to link the attacks with Iraq."



Regardless of my impending lunacy, here are my thoughts:

1) I absolutely detest the attitude of the Bush Administration in its apparent conviction that the American populace is stupid. To wit:

"After some critics assailed Bush for overstating the connection between bin Laden's group and al-Qaeda in Iraq, the White House quickly arranged a presidential speech to defend and reinforce its assertions.

The reason to emphasize al-Qaeda, aides said, is simple. "People know what that means," said one senior official who spoke about internal strategy on the condition of anonymity. "The average person doesn't understand why the Sunnis and Shia don't like each other. They don't know where the Kurds live. . . . And al-Qaeda is something they know. They're the enemy of the United States.""

2) I absolutely detest the way that the Bush Administration evidently believes that a PR campaign is the way to influence the American populace rather than by demonstrated effectiveness of policy and government. To wit"

""Nine-one-one absolutely is a bona fide, legitimate reason to remind people what's at stake," he (Former Bush White House press secretary and founder of the advocacy group behind the ad in question Ari Fleischer) said. "The point is not that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. They're not. But 9/11 should be a vivid reminder to everyone about how vulnerable our country is and that's why we need to win in Iraq."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20733211/
Here we are with the "official" position now - Shows that the Patreaus report was preplanned, IMO.

This is one of the few articles that seems even tempered. Also, it seems as though the Republican Leadership is finally starting to more forcefully "talk the talk". Whether they will eventually "walk the talk" is another story. I have great respect for Sens Warner and Hagel. (Sure am sorry to see them decide not to run again in 2008).

The article starts with the points that Bush is expected to make in his address to the nation planned for tomorrow. Some statements of interest to me in this report are:

- "The address will stake out a conciliatory tone toward Congress, BUT (emphasis mine) Bush will place more conditions on the pace of reductions to the pre-buildup level of 130,000 than Petraeus did."

- "At the White House, Bush met Tuesday afternoon with House and Senate lawmakers of both parties, and he publicly pledged to consider their views. “It’s very important before I make up my mind that I consult with leaders of the House and the Senate,” he said." (Big of him but a little late if you ask me.)

- "As Petraeus and Crocker have, Bush will acknowledge difficulties, and the fact that few of the benchmarks set by Congress to measure progress of the buildup have been met, the official said. Yet, he will stress that a precipitous U.S. withdrawal would be a catastrophe for Iraq and U.S. interests." (Again, big of him to "acknowledge difficulties". Another point, I keep hearing this phrase "precipitous withdrawal" in the WH statements but have never seen or heard any elected official actually call for such a withdrawal. I could be mistaken but what I've heard called for is a definite PLAN for withdrawal. In any event, it would take many months if not a year or more to get our troops and equipment out of Iraq. If we wanted to evacuate and leave the equipment it would go faster, of course, but, again, I've not heard anyone say that.)

- "Crocker was particularly keen on detailing diplomatic developments, including Saudi Arabia’s move to open an embassy in Baghdad and a third conference of Iraqi neighbors to be hosted by Turkey in Istanbul at the end of October." (This is some good news. Crocker is the only one I really think is working toward the real goals (or what should be the real goals) of getting Iraq into a position of self-government. I don't believe that Bush, et al, really care about this aspect.)

- "Warner said he hoped the general (Patreaus) kept in mind the casualties that might result from his recommendation. He also said he did not think the U.S. strategy should rely on Baghdad’s political progress because it might not happen."


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20719860/

An article today discusses the Sunni and Shiite reactions to Petraeus' talk. Here are the two primary statements:

- "The way Askari (Shiite parliamentarian) sees it, U.S. troops will stay in Iraq bolstering his government, despite its unmet benchmarks, because the country is too important to let slip into what he predicts would be a regional war and an Al Qaeda resurgence. Any attempt to engineer the ouster of a government with the support of the Shiite masses would be such an open abandonment of democratic principles that U.S. officials could not condone it, he figures. And it would likely touch off all-out civil war. Meanwhile, Askari is confident those grassroots Shiites will support this government despite its shortcomings, because they know that internal division could end up leaving them again a persecuted, second-class majority, as they were under Saddam.

...

"And Askari notes that in its alliance with the Kurds, the Shiite coalition could push through that benchmark legislation wanted by the U.S. policymakers. But American diplomats, he says, keep urging them to find consensus with the Sunnis. That, he says, just emboldens the Sunnis to hold out for more."

...

"He notes that Sunnis opposed and boycotted the first Iraqi elections but later joined the political process when they saw themselves marginalized. If the Americans would just adopt the so-called “80 percent option,” backing the Shiite and Kurdish blocks who claim that share of the population, the Sunnis would capitulate again. “If we go on without them,” he says calmly, “they will join [later].”"

- "Parliamentarian Ahmed Suleiman al-Awani is a (Sunni) tribal leader from Ramadi in Anbar province, which U.S. commanders showcase when trying to show progress in Iraq. He focuses on what the hearings did not cover. Why wasn’t more time spent dealing with Iranian-backed Shiite militias with government connections that terrorize the Sunnis? What about the attempts to marginalize and ignore the Sunni members of the government? And in addition to what he sees as the sparse mention of the failings of the Shiite-led government, a favorite Sunni topic, the Americans were taking credit for the indigenous Anbar province offensive against Al Qaeda, for which Sunnis paid a heavy price in blood. “The problems of Anbar were not solved by the [Iraqi] government or the Americans. They were solved by the Sunni tribes,” Awani grouses."

If we are waiting on the Iraqi government to peacefully settle differences, we will wait forever. It appears to me, based on this report, that neither side particularly cares if the USA stays or not - they care who will get the most munitions.

IMHO, no matter how long we stay, the day after we leave this rivalry will play out in blood on both sides. Our only question is whether or not we shed anymore of our own blood before it happens.

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/checkpointb...eus-report.aspx




"I opposed this war from the beginning," Obama says, according to the excerpts. "I opposed the war in 2002. I opposed it in 2003. I opposed it in 2004. I opposed it in 2005 (But I voted to FUND it.). I opposed it in 2006(But I voted to FUND it.). I introduced a plan in January to remove all of our combat brigades by next March. And I am here to say that we have to begin to end this war now."

He DOES know that his votes to FUND the war are on record, doesn't he?
It's the beginning of the end all right, for his credibility and candidacy.

By this time next month, it'll be all about Fred and Hillary, and Obama will have a lot of cash, but not much else.
Taylor,

Is it Obama's talk that is cheap, or everyone's? Surely your comment is not due to any bias.

You would know what he, or anyone else for that matter, has accomplished if you listened to his speeches, read his books, or did any research.
I'm sure Bush will remind Patraeus of his booboo----An absolute waste of time---D.C. is dancing while The bloodshed continues and Iraq is burning down.Afghanastan is run by the Taliban and still Bush and his flock of sheep strut around like they have a plan for everything---the plan?Just repeat the same old lies until his term runs out.Bush has never accomplished anything in his life except screwing up everything his brain narrows in on.Impeachment now---
Yes, Taylor, talk is cheap.  Obama is a black man, plain and simple.  He has been elected to the US Senate after serving in the Illinois legislature.  You can name the nymber of black men who have achieved the distinction of serving in the Senate on one hand. ON ONE HAND.  In this country, that is a phenomenal accomplishment even 40 years after the passage of the Civil Rights act.


    As for Petreus and Crocker, nothing they said, that I heard, yesterday sounded very optimistic.  When even the President's yes-men can't give a glowing report on the situation there, it tells me the situation is even worse than we are being told it is.  The General stuck to his military knowledge and seemed rather short-sighted about the whole situation.  However, to his credit he didn't say "if we don't fight them there, we will fight them here."  I guess he wanted to avoid falling on his sword like Colin Powell did.  
"So, you're not going to get the kind of government Obama stands for by anything short of an Americanized version of the Chinese cultural revolution"

It's what your handlers have been directing you towards for years. Don't worry though they'll be safe It'll only be the slaves that die.
John Edwards is lacking necessary buzz.  Hilary Clinton is flat-out not electable in the general.  If we (the Dems) want to take back the White House then voting for Barack Obama in the primaries is the only way.  I want someone who is smart and has good judgement running my country. Period.
VRWC,

I guess all you can do now is attack the Democrats.  You certainly can no longer defend the current Administration or it's policies.  That speaks for itself!

And remember - it's not just he Democrats that are outraged with the current policy.
VRWC: Its not loathing for the military, its disgust with being LIED to. And its not treasonous to call out those lies, its quite patriotic actually. Anyone who still supports this corrupt administration is EITHER too ignorant to see what they've been doing OR is complicit in their crimes against humanity.
ex-marine,vietvet (Sent Wednesday, September 12, 2007 9:30 AM)

ex-marine (thank you for your service)

God knows I don't want to EVER sound as if I am defending the Bush administration in any effort but most particularly in his misbegotten war in Iraq.

However, as your own service history will no doubt confirm, the military is not supposed to set or defend policy. They are to go forth and accomplish MILITARY objectives. Perhaps the only time I could feel that Patreaus said not only the whole truth but replied appropriately was in his answer to those questions. Of course if anyone would ever tell me what the military objectives actually ARE in Iraq, then we can talk. There are plenty of "tactics" but I don't see "objectives" and I sure as hell don't see anyone saying what "success" would look like. We just hear "benefits". Sigh.

The military is the implementation arm of war - not its moral arbiter. They do what we tell them to do.

The Commander-in-Chief, howevever, should be hauled before a tribunal to answer those very questions.

Thank you,
Point #1: The Democrats are traitors and are disgusting. They totally beleive the bilge on a BinLaden tape, but question the integrity of a US 4-star General.

Point #2: Why do the Democrats always have to come back to Vietnam. Remember it was Johnson that elevated troop levels in Vietnam to over 500K and then did not have the guts to run for President in 1968, thus dumping the problem on Nixon. Why is Johnson's name never included with problems of the Vietnam War. Also remember westmoreland was appointed to CINC Vietnam by Johnson.

Point #3: Why are no Democrats concerned about the latest Clinton Fund raising scandel. For a women that is so smart she really does know that much or recall anything. With such a weak mind how could she even function as a cash register operator. Just another point on the trend line beginning in 1996.

Point #4: When we leave Iraq in totality, what is the Democrat plan to stabilize Iraq? Again they talk big about the children and peoples of other countries, but lack the balls to do anything about it while drinking Starbucks and living in Million Dollar mansions. Get real.....Look around and you will see the real world is mean and hard!

Like John Wayne once said: "Life is tough and it is even tougher if you are stupid!"

Wally
obama, when are YOU returning Hsu's money?

oh, never?
who would bother listening to this crackpot?He probably does not know where he is.And his repeated freedom,light at the end of the tunnel,we will win are worn out phrases that even mean nothing to him.Making time to excape his whitehouse prison.Even he knows he is fried.
We get attacked by Saudi terrorists (9/11) and then immediatly blame it on the Teliban and then attack and occupy Afganistan. We then accuse Iraq of having weapons of mass destruction so we attack and occupy Iraq and kill one million of their people at a cost of four thousand of out best and brightest not to mention the treasure of our country. I don't care what kind of spin is put on this pathetic history, it is wrong and nasty. We have lost the class we one posessed by defending the world (W.W.II) against the Fascist empires. Now we prepair to attack Iran. What is it with people who have to try and control the world.
 
Biden is such a child, first reading the paper during Obama's questions, then cutting him off right when he asked a brilliant question of the two that had them more up against the wall than anytime in the entire hearing.  I didn't have a particularly high opinion of Biden before, but even I didn't think he was petty enough to stall the entire Iraq debate in this country just to not let an opponent one-up him and somehow derail his hopeless Presidential run I guess.

I suppose the bright side is at least when he was reading the paper, he didn't have the time to insult any Sago mine widows.
Nuanced: Not according to the leftwing and liberals anyway,circa 1999,who claimed that the UN ''containment''was starving ''millions''of Iraqis to death. As with the now-discredited LANCET study of Iraqi civilian deaths[which was quoted as recently as two weeks ago by far-leftwinged activist and actor Tim Robbins while on Bill Maher],human rights NGOs including Amnesty International,Human Rights Watch,and the International Red Cross were citing figures in the ''hundreds of thousands''of Iraqi children and elderly who were dying of starvation due in main course to the UN containment of Iraq during the 1990s-2002.
This is just manufactured news by Obama.  Look at what Obama is saying:  he'll keep US combat forces in Iraq for the next 15 months.  If he became President we would be fighting in Iraq through 2009 and into 2010.  

But that's not all - the "combat troops" distinction is highly misleading.  Under Obama's plan as well as HRC's and Edwards, we will have "non-combat" forces in Iraq for years to come - up to 80,000.  These "non-combat" troops will be training Iraqis, operate as strike forces to engage extremists and terrorists, provide security in the green zone and operate our military bases.  In fact, our air force could remain fully deployed in Iraq.  They are not "combat brigades."

The bottom line is Obama, HRC and Edwards don't have confidence in their own judgment and trust the will of the American public in standing up to the Washington and military establishment on Iraq. They pay heed to the voices in the establishment saying a complete withdrawal will result in chaos in Iraq - as if we don't already have chaos.

The Iraqi government has become dangerously dependent on the US for security.  By keeping tens of thousands of "non-combat troops" in Iraq for years to come this dependency will not be broken.  Moreover, the propaganda advantage the terrorists gain in the Middle East and worldwide from the US occupation of Iraq will continue.

We need to bring every single US soldier out of Iraq - starting now.  Only Richardson understands this. He has made the case for bringing home all US  forces repeatedly, including in a recent Op Ed in the Washington Post.  See
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702063.html
Mike K, Hillary changed party affiliations from repub to dem in the 60s. Thats all I need to know.
VRWC [[I find it quite hilarious that "White Flag Treasonous Democrats" are going to lecture us on foreign policy or military operations?]]

You should be careful who you call "treasonous" after the Bushite traitors Rove and Libby committed treason by blowing the cover of a CIA agent.

Bush has lost the war in Iraq because he is an incompetent leader, but that doesn't mean the US has to "surrender." There's not even anybody to surrender _to_ in Iraq, just countless splinter groups that are at each others' throats as much as they're after US troops. Pulling out of the endless quagmire that Bush got us into is NOT surrender.

JIrby:

"When Bush addresses the nation, he will mainly be targeting those who are still silly enough to believe his crazy BS. It has been quite a while since he has had the attention of anyone but fools. Obama makes good sense, but I don't see that it should require rocket science to arrive at his position. The main problem with Obama's stance is that it isn't what heads of corporations can get behind, not because it doesn't make sense. So, you're not going to get the kind of government Obama stands for by anything short of an Americanized version of the Chinese cultural revolution, and that won't happen until liberals start buying guns. Liberals, then, are telling them they have nothing to fear. Therefore, no problems ahead for the upper upper classes. That spells Hillary for our next president. And I notice that Domenico is telling us that the principal can be more than just your pal."

Dig it.


I don't think a specific timeline will assist US troops in any way. In fact it will jeopardize them.

Additionally some sort of stability in Iraq is required prior to withdrawal or this really was for nothing.

Ultimately the focus on Iraq distracts from the conflict in Afghanistan/Pakistan where the real war on terror is being fought.

Do what it takes to get Iraq stable however long that takes and re focus on Afghanistan/Pakistan where al-Qaeda has once again re established itself.

Wally, John Wayne was right- YOU are stupid!
GWB is right. We need to stay in Iraq. This is an oil rich country, strategically located.

We need to secure our energy future. We need to influence Middle Eastern politics. These are the main ways we can maintain our security. Also, the profiteers feed well.
HMT, Robert Catalano: kudos!

HMT, forget impeachment, though.  The deal has been done.

Robert, as always you have something well worth the reading and succinctly put.

To you folks, and to JIrby, thank you for making this thread a thoughtful first read this morning.  

People like you keep me encouraged that there are yet a few literate, intelligent folk left on our desolate planet.

Rock on...

VRWC, WA--Squawk and name call all you want if it makes you feel better. This is a failed policy by an inept administration based on an intellectually bankrupt Neocon fantasy. The only bright spot was the incredibly heroic performance of our military including David Petraeus. Only fools criticize these men. They have the unenviable task of the tactical execution of the Strategic policy of elected civilian administrations. They must do so without criticism or complaint while in Uniform. They must have the discipline to support the President and his policies with a straight face even when the truth is apparent. The very existence of our Republic depends on the militaries subservient relationship to the civilian authority. He is indeed an honorable man with a strong heart and a strong stomach.
General David Petraeus did his duty in front of Congress with honor and was even able to testify to his personal feelings without intimating disloyalty.

John Warner "Does the [Iraq war] make America safer?"

Gen. Petraeus  "I don't know, actually. I have not sat down and sorted in my own mind."

Thats good enough for me.
The DEMS need to wake up and realize Obama is their only hope of winning a general election in 2008. People want change now and Obama is their only hope. Otherwise the Dems will be crying that they had another election stolen from them when it is they themselves that cost us to lose. Remember Kerry in 04…The Dems could have put  BOBO the clown up there and he would have done better then Kerry. Wake up people Clinton can NOT and will NOT will a general election in 08.

OBAMA 08
SO, Obama wants Mesopotamia to become another Indochina, it seems. US leaves with its tail between its legs, and killing fields engulf the middle east.  Will their be benefit concerts and telethons than, as their are for Darfur?
Obama had an opportunity to question the senior U.S. military commander in the field about events in Iraq and he choose instead to pontificate and make a  long boring speech full of platitudes which we've all heard before. When he finally did getting around to a question--too bad time was almost up-- it was one that someone else had already asked.  And this is the person who is suppose to bring us together? I thought that required a listening skill.I'm glad Biden choose to read a newspaper. I would have too. Obama supporters are being fooled by a man who is more interested in  promoting himself and his rock star image than he is in others. This "exchange" with Petraeus shows just how shallow he is, GQ photo shoots, Hollywood parties, Broadway shows and all.
Obama had an opportunity to question the senior U.S. military commander in the field about events in Iraq and he choose instead to pontificate and make a  long boring speech full of platitudes which we've all heard before. When he finally did getting around to a question--too bad time was almost up-- it was one that someone else had already asked.  And this is the person who is suppose to bring us together? I thought that required a listening skill.I'm glad Biden choose to read a newspaper. I would have too. Obama supporters are being fooled by a man who is more interested in  promoting himself and his rock star image than he is in others. This "exchange" with Petraeus shows just how shallow he is, GQ photo shoots, Hollywood parties, Broadway shows and all.
Obama had an opportunity to question the senior U.S. military commander in the field about events in Iraq and he choose instead to pontificate and make a  long boring speech full of platitudes which we've all heard before. When he finally did getting around to a question--too bad time was almost up-- it was one that someone else had already asked.  And this is the person who is suppose to bring us together? I thought that required a listening skill.I'm glad Biden choose to read a newspaper. I would have too. Obama supporters are being fooled by a man who is more interested in  promoting himself and his rock star image than he is in others. This "exchange" with Petraeus shows just how shallow he is, GQ photo shoots, Hollywood parties, Broadway shows and all.
Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review.  He has two brilliant best-selling books.  He took a penniless job after graduating at the top of his class to help poor rural communities organize.  He's spent more time in elected office than Hillary or Edwards.  The reason people like Hillary is they think she'll govern like Bill.  The reason people voted for George Bush was that they thought he'd govern like his dad.  Wake up people!  Obama is the real thing!
Wally...how nice of you to describe yourself to all of us so aptly!

"Life is tough and it is even tougher if you are stupid!"


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