I really don't care for moveon.org, but I think the statement in they're ad would be hard to prove false

They are wrong about no one being fooled by Bush. Too many are nuance-challenged.  Just look at the headlines in the papers and other media "Bush backs troop withdrawal".  Apparently major news outlets and educated journalists are fooled, can't do nuance or else are ethically challenged.

He never betrayed my trust I never trusted him.The people I trusted are the lower level government workers that betryed a trust to the american people.Cabinet officers like Colin Powell betrayed me George tenet Betrayed me,BUSH WAS ALWAYS SHIFTY FROM HIS DRUG DAYS TO THE DUI and always worming his way out or in VIETNAM TEXAS RANGERS

Does Bush think we're all as stupid as he is?  The stupid one's work just down the street from him and they're easy to identify.  They're the one's that are cheering him on.  Back when I went to high school, my English teacher made me spend many hours of detention with him for bad behavior.  As he stood over me, he told me that "You, sir are a boob, and the age of the boob is upon us."  He was right back in the late 50's when he said it but he was six decades early.  The age of the boob is with us now, and they've all been elected.

Its what makes America great, we are called upon, it is our duty to question our leaders. Good job MoveOn.
Now watch the fascists call them unpatriotic traitors. But Sean, its not working, Americans today are more capable of critical thinking than the sheep in Nazi Germany!

No FR,its actually not. Thus,to disprove the unending suspicion that the New York Times is the Little Red Book of America in the print media Dept; it should forthwith accept any full page ad by a rival conservative organization and charge the same amount for running it as they did MOVEON.

Great ad Move-on.Will support move-on and just sent them another donation.Have been proud to be a member for 2 years.Rudy just a copy cat and trying to demonize Hillary.He needs to take care of his own dirty closets.

No comment is needed, I'll just say "AMEN"!

Good Job Move On.  Keep speaking Truth to Power.  

Backfired...oops!  It's Bush we hate!  Bush lied, people died!  Go Patraeus!...What a load of crap!  If you Dems can't control your lunatic fringe, you will not have congressional power for long.  Why don't you Dems try to be a wee bit intellectually honest and state that President Clinton lied about Iraq WMD, VP Gore lied about Iraq WMD, Senator Kerry lied about Iraq WMD, and all your "put your finger in the wind" congressional members lied about WMD since all were reading from the same NIE report.  Secondly, since your being honest, why don't you state that it was the Clinton administration that changed US policy toward Iraq from one of containment to one of regime change.  How convenient for you to forget.  Your party will go down in the annals of history as the party of treason.

The people at MoveOn think no one can be fooled by this? Guess again, my liberal friends. You don't know your morons. The recent uptick in Bush's poll numbers illustrate this. How can you change your mind back and forth like that? What changes is the appearance that the crap he is throwing is beginning to stick to the wall. If it wasn't fairly obvious to you that Bush was the wrong way to go before the first election, you are too stupid to vote. But you serve the establishment. You serve the people who oppress you. You are similar to a suicide bomber, but instead of killing yourself for what you have been told is the truth, you voluntarily enslave yourself and your progeny because the man has tricked you into carrying out his will. And you really are ready to die to make him wealthier, so in that sense, you are not as honorable as a suicide bomber. You are not only an enemy to the people, you are an enemy to yourself and your family. So yeah, you bought into the Repubs recent smoke and mirrors routine, just like they knew you would. They own your mind.

A "koan" is a question without an answer commonly employed to shake people out of their mundane thought patterns.

Here is the koan of the day:  

What is the difference between O J Simpson and George W Bush?


One more for the road:  

What is the sound of one lip quivering?

vrwc - <laughing> wow, are you confused!

Bush is nothing but a street-corner hustler playing the shell game.  He's an illusionist who's whole presidency has been based on slogans without substance - from "mission accomplished' to the latest buzz-phrase, "return on success".  MoveOn.org is absolutely right to point out Bush's empty rhetoric.  Rhetoric meant for no one other than Republicans in Congress and what's left of his right-wing, conservative base.  His plan is no plan for Iraq other than to tinker with the edges while our troops continue to die, and the cost of the war approaches a trillion dollars.  Can't you just hear him scream and rush for his seldom used veto pen if Congress passed a trillion dollar health care plan or aid to education plan or infrastructure repair and upgrade plan or air traffic control and airport upgrade plan or school lunch for underpriviledged children plan or national parks plan here in the U.S. - or any number of other underfunded or unfunded programs for the benefit of U.S. citizens?  No money, no money, no money - except for Iraq for years and years to come.  Quite the conservative, our G.W. Bush.  

VRWC-  are you a Jerry in CC wannabe?

VRWC, There are other ways to promote regime change. Even though many speculated about and possibly even believed in the existence of WMD, Bush was the only one stupid enough to start a war over it.  I really don't think shouting "they did too" is a good enough excuse in this case. Face it, your guy screwed up.

R Merrel: spot on

"Your party will go down in the annals of history as the party of treason. "  Let's talk about the party that will go down in the anals of history - you deluded fool.

vrwc awesome suggestion on how the demos can keep control of congress we will be putting it next to the one where you tell them how to win the 06 elections,thanks for the advice on the lunitic fringe seeing as you repuckers know about crazy, but we will wait and see who eats crow you or the american people.By the by are you suggesting that by kerry et al lied about WMD are you inferring that bush also lied or that kerry didnt lie which is it they all lie and you like repucker liars better then dem liars.SAD OUTLOOK ON AMERICA

The sound of one lip quivering is what bush makes trying to summon up compassion for all the death and destruction he helped create by not thinking with his brain instead of the seat of his pants

Nuanced and jirby are right, pj is wrong.  The American people have become sheep, they're the Proles of George Orwell's 1984.  They'll swallow any amoount of crap.  The are now scratching their heads and really believing this is a new stand shrub is taking when it's just more Stay The Course with a new twist---our military has been stretched and decimated by this nonsense war, so Bush HAS to pull some back for rotation.  But the average prole doesn't see that---they see this as a new policy Bush is trying, and they're thinking, "duh...hmmm...maybe we better give this new thing a little more time..."  The old saying is true; no one EVER went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  It's even truer in politics than in business.

Mark Thieme,  Here's one for you,

What is the sound of sweat?

Class Warrior-BINGO!!!! You pretty much said it all in a nutshell. The founding fathers created the electorial college just for that reason....they were terrified of the ignorant masses.  

VRWC, jerry an others of that ilk, During WWII we had a name for people who were physically fit and didn't enlist it was slackers.

I'm surprized the GOP has not claimed the planned troop reduction of 30,000 from 160,000 to 130,000 is some form of tax cut.  They're slipping!  I'll take my share in cash please!!

I'm waiting for the GOP's "secret plan to win the war on terror."  Fool me once . . .

I think it's so funny that Rudy (and the rest of the republicans) are complaining about Moveon.org's tactics when they are the same tactics the republicans have used for decades.  It's no different than what they did to John Kerry during the last presidental election or even to McCain during the republican nominations 2 elections ago.  They say it's not right to "personally attack" but I think they just have sour grapes because a page got taken from their playbook and now are getting a taste of their own medicine

I think it's so funny that Rudy (and the rest of the republicans) are complaining about Moveon.org's tactics when they are the same tactics the republicans have used for decades.  It's no different than what they did to John Kerry during the last presidental election or even to McCain during the republican nominations 2 elections ago.  They say it's not right to "personally attack" but I think they just have sour grapes because a page got taken from their playbook and now are getting a taste of their own medicine

Actually, Lee, back in 2002 the NY Times printed an extensive ad campaign pushing fraudulent justification for bush and them's invasion of Iraq.  These ads were written by Judith Miller, among others, only it was called "journalism.  Also, being a stickler for detail, you should acknowledge that the conquest and colonization of Iraq is a neo-conservative venture, not a conservative one.

One slight bump in the ratings (from one group of 1000............probably all republicans) and you're pointing to the polls to make your argument.  That is laughable!!!  I didn't think republicans cared about polls (unless they favor your argument, I guess)?  What hypocrits!!  Let's look at the polls which have show AMERICA (the majority not the blinded) want us out of IRAQ.  There is not ONE THING in Iraq worth my husband (a captain in the military) losing his life over and I would have a hard time justifiying to my two small children why they would never get to know there dad. Middle eastern discourse has been around since time was recorded and one stubborn president and thousands of brave troops killed is NOT goign to change an ideology!!!  If you want to change the world to your way of thinking JOIN a mission.  Don't support a suicide mission!!!    

Rufus, I don't think you need to lecture me on service.  Currently I have my son, my brother in-law, 4 cousins, and an uncle serving, three of which are in the Iraq theater as Marines.  For you ungrateful, seditious, unpatriotic liberals who loathe the military, stop right now and go to your nearest recruiter and sign up.  That's what I thought, no takers.  You people fool no one.  To KENN my point is that the NIE was wrong about WMD but the Left is sooo disengenuous that they like to say Bush lied.  Flat factually wrong.   AP do you remember when we pulled the support from the SHIAs to overthrow Sadaam?  They got the crap kicked out of them.  Alot of dead SHIAs.  Do you really think in todays jihadist movement calling for a caliphate prior to us invading Iraq that we could afford NOT to see the possible nexus.  For those of you lunatic Left who says the President keeps changing what the Iraq battlefield is about WMD, Sadaam, democracy maybe you ought to go to the Whitehouse web page and go back to March '03 until now and see his statements in black in white.

Why dont we just buy DUCK TAPE and tie Bush up with it? How many lies is it going to take for the Republicans to stand up and shout ENOUGH ALREADY! and defend our troops?! Betrayus was forthcoming in stating that HE DOESN'T KNOW if our troops being there will make AMERICA SAFER!!! GET A CLUE!!!!!Thank you MOVEON.ORG

Amy H - It's no different than what they did to John Kerry during the last presidental election or even to McCain during the republican nominations 2 elections ago.


So you won't complain when the Swift Boaters, or a reasonable facsimile, launch their attack on Hillary next June or so.  I mean, that is just the way it is, right?

What is the sound of "painful rectal itch"?

RJH Rosemont:

All is fair in love and war, right!!  I didn't make the rules but I am glad that someone AGAINST the war is finally realizing that the person who makes the most noise gets heard.  Democrats have been playing nice and politely "taking it" for years and I think because the American people are fed up with Republicans lying or supporting the lies and sick of Democrats playing nice that Moveon.org was created to get a job done.  You do make me laugh though........Republicans have hardly waited until next June to rip Hillary............they do it EVERY DAY and in every way possible!!!!  Any distraction they can create from their flaws.  

Bush is MILKING America with this war and the MaddMan is not going to stop! We have to stop him before we run dry!...Where is all this money going? Sure, better humvees,(About time!) but a lot is not accounted for. Someone is getting rich off of this war and messing up our economy. America is at risk, and WE THE PEOPLE need to stand up and take back AMERICA! And by the way, UNITED!!!!

PJ:Strange. The only ones who made ''Nazi Germany''comparisons was MOVEON. Not the administration. If this WAS A ''Nazi fascist state'',you would not live to see the sun go down.

Freedom's Watch, a well-organized GOP PR operation with Ari Fleischer at the helm describing itself as a grass-roots movement just finished a $25M national ad campaign in support of the surge.  MoveOn's paltry $125,000 is chicken feed compared to that.  Neocon's need to quit whining, the truth always comes out eventually.

Lee, Get out your checkbook.  May be your team is outta money.  Maybe their "conserving" it.

Either way, why do repulsivcans hate the free market system?  NYT runs ads for income.  Like I said get out your check book or find someone who still supports the plain & simple FU

Scott: Yet it was backed by several Democrats now running for office who maintained the causus belli for an Iraq incursion long before Bush ever took office.[and maintained this reasoning right up to the moment we crossed the Iraqi frontier]. Again,those in thrall to MOVEON or any such organization[you will be reminded that the 2004 Bush publically condemned all such attack ads,as for the swiftboaters,there was also the phony Guard documents jerryrigged by Democrats coming at exactly the same time and this passed for ''journalism-as-ad''as well,pushed by no less than the nations premier news anchor],are simply unfit to lead this nation as they do not represent ''The People''but ''THEIR people''.

Wow, I didn't know there were that many lemmings.  Oh, wait I forgot this is MSNBC (Sponsored by MoveOn.org).

From Weston Kosova, Newsweek:

"If C-Span had sponsored a “Blood and Treasure” drinking game, everyone in the hearing room would have been drunk before noon.

It wasn’t just the senators who couldn’t get enough B&T. The star of the hearing, Gen. David Petraeus, solemnly testified that even though he believes we can still win in Iraq, “there clearly are limits to the blood and treasure that we can expend.” Not to be outdone, his sidekick, Ambassador Ryan Crocker, lamented, “Our country has given a great deal in blood and treasure to stabilize the situation in Iraq.…” (Crocker’s performance was memorable for another show-stopping war euphemism, when he referred to bombed-out Iraqi towns as “post-kinetic environments.”)

As a rhetorical tool, B&T is admirably versatile. Either side can use it with equal effectiveness. The trick is to wait for just the right moment to unleash the phrase, usually when you and your sparring partner are good and angry and you’ve already run through the familiar arsenal of Iraq clichés that must be hauled out in any conversation about the war. (On the one side: “We’ve got to fight them over there …” On the other: “The whole war is based on lies …”) That’s when you—and you’ve got to act quick, because you know the other guy is reaching for the same holster—affect a slightly condescending tone of sad, world-weary resignation, and fire: "No one among us can deny that this noble/futile conflict has cost us much in blood and treasure." So true. So smart. Duel over.

Even the White House is getting in on a little B&T. Briefing reporters, press secretary Tony Snow lectured that in the long run, failure in Iraq would “require a much greater expenditure of U.S. blood and treasure.”

Expenditure? There’s an interesting word choice (we’re sorry, but we had to expend your son’s life in Iraq), and it says a lot about why B&T has become so popular. Like all euphemisms it puts comforting distance between ourselves and the violence in Iraq by making something brutal and ugly sound lofty and poetic. Death and destruction is depressing. But expenditures, that’s just spreadsheets. B&T is all about making the war easier for us here at home.

Try this: Next time you hear someone use “blood and treasure” to make a point for or against the war, substitute the words “dead Americans and money.” It has a whole different ring to it."

DGordon: You're confused, the lemmings are the ones following GW. MoveOn are the ones pointing out how foolish they are.

If you don't like what you read..........Move ON........preferably to a different country where freedom of speach and opinion is not allowed.  I'm sure Bush wishes he inherited a dictatorship but if you don't like democracy (where citizens CAN disagree with your leaders and CAN remove them through a political process in case you forgot) then don't apply for citizenship.  By the way (lemmings) nice use of name-calling.  A very mature argument!!!

Class Warrior, I guess you're right, we ARE talking about a population that elected George W Bush twice. (Or did they?)Where's our hope then?

What does conservative mean anyway?  You seem pretty liberal with my tax dollars!!!  

"If this WAS A ''Nazi fascist state'',you would not live to see the sun go down. "  Or maybe, you.

Amy [[It's no different than what they did to John Kerry during the last presidental election or even to McCain during the republican nominations 2 elections ago.]]

Actually it's WAY different. What Bush's hitmen said about Kerry and McCain was proven to be a pack of outright lies in both cases (they accused Kerry of faking his war record to get medals and McCain of having an illegitimate black baby). There's nothing in the MoveOn ad that was false.

Since America is not yet a military dictatorship, it's still OK for people to criticize generals. If Petraeus' boss, Admiral Fallon, can call Petraeus an a**-kissing sycophant, it certainly should be OK for MoveOn and anyone else to share similar opinions.

Wow, I didn't know there were enough lemmings gullible enough to still support The Worst President Ever.

The most despicable ad against a soldier was the Republican Party's against Max Cleland in 2002. Sen. Cleland's sin? He didn't think we should invade Iraq.

I think this ad campaign is brilliant. The first ad got a rise out of the rightwing "nutroots."
It got a big buzz (and I understand that Rush "Pimple on my Ass" Limbaugh called Chuck Hagel "Senator Betray Us?).  
It got Rudy to spend some campaign cash to put his money where his big mouth is.
And then MoveOn follows up with an ad that says it as simple as it gets:
Whiteboard in a classrrom
*2006 - 130,000 troops*
Simple addition and subtraction
The usual Bu**sh** from Bush
*2008 - 130,000 troops*

AND JEANNE SHAHEEN IS RUNNING AGAINST JOHN SUNUNU!

I count nine GOP Senate seats in serious play according to poll numbers (Sununu is already about 20% behind Shaheen) and no Dem seats in play yet.

I wonder if MoveOn will be running any ads against Sununu?

Here we go again. How many troops did we lose in WWI? in WWII? in Korea? in Vietnam? oh wait, Democtrats sent us there. How many troops have we lost in Iraq? this is a no brainer people. There could be 130K, 160K, or 10K troops in Iraq, it doesn't matter. What matters is that many of us WILL NEVER FORGET!!

VRWC,WA. I know of not one single person that doesn't back our troops. Isn't $587 Billion dollars enough for the protection they haven't gotten. It is you that tries to make the UN-AMERICAN and UNPATRIOTIC label and it we the Liberals that is trying to stop the needless blood shed.  

Further more get your head out of your ..., pardon me your sand pile and read into just what Bush said last night and then tell me he hadn't planned for a long invasion lasting through many presidents unless he plans to say in the oval office by default (MARTIAL LAW). Want J. McCain? he will stay their. That is what really freighten this 72 year old man.  What faces my children, 17 grand children and 4 great grandchildren, what is in their future?

Stop with this rag of BS that all liberals hate the military, it is only good for TP.  I served in '54 to '62 in the USAF, my daughter served in "Desert Storm". My son retired from the USAF as a Major. We Supported them in that 100 hour war more than anyone of you have aided our "All Volunteer Military with our Citizen Soldiers" that has not contributed anything for a sacrific for the troops. Except on Sept. 25, 2005 when for the first time this lunkhead ask the nation to conserve as the twin hurricanes disrupted the crude supply from the Gulf of Mexico. Some sacrific you people have made for our troops other than those metalic stickers on your BMW going at 85 to 95/mph with wreckless driving and partying while they shed their blood for your comfort.

We don't hate the troops, it is what was told to me on a vacation in Aruba by a English couple, "we don't hate, YANKS, Americans just your lamebrained leader.  

SO VRWC, WA. quit the crap, it is people like you who can't see that this country invaded just to permanently occupy space in Iraq for "OIL and the defense of Israel. What a legacy this nitwick has left us with.  Bitter, you bet your sweet bibby I am.

Why are we using Citizen Soldiers fighting this war, is it so the scrub can fill their jobs with the law breakers, illegal wet backs, that cross our borders.  

Byron Dorgan stopped the Mexican Truxks from taking the last real American jobs and at least preserved one industry that Ted Kennedy and Carter and Reagan tried to sabatage through deregulation.  

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):