"The usual rightwing debate techniques are ad hominems, changing the subject, conflating unrelated issues, and finally, when all else fails, "cutting off the mike."

That about sums it up.

The reasons are simple: they do not have any legitimate arguments so they act like the insecure bullies they are. When you bring in logic and facts to the discussion they get flustered and then they resort to the muzzling tactics as a pathetic 'save face' measure.

This is nothing but phony outrage, especially in light of the $26M Freedom's Watch ad campaign saying we must stay in Iraq because "they" attacked us on 9/11 and will do it again if we stop fighting.  Since there were no Iranians on the airliners and al Quaeda had no operations in Iraq at that time, who are "they"?  Persian rugs?  Minarets?  We've destroyed plenty of those.  At least we're distracted from unimportant matters, such as the hated Blackwater once again pouring their mercenaries into Iraqi streets and that we're on track to lose almost 80 soldiers this month vs 72 last September.  Current American death toll 3794.  

Right on MK! And thanks for the list of military officers the Republicans have fired, smeared or ignored. Lets not forget the military veterans they have insulted, Senator Webb, Rep.Murtha, General Wesley Clark, and Sen Kerry. Republicans are hypocrites.

"Everybody should be able to say anything about anything and everybody should be able to hear or read about it. Yes, this means that even the whiners and cry-babies have a forum in which to cry and moan. Is this not what freedom is about?
Pacheck, Huntington Beach, Ca. (Sent Friday, September 21, 2007 10:53 AM)"

This statement is pure, unadulterated common-sense!!
Want proof that most people don't have any?  Watch how many disagree with the premise.  Remember, it doesn't matter what you say or what you think, someone will be offended...it's the American Way!

p.s.  Of course, you can't yell "FIRE" in a public place!!  (COMMON SENSE)

George Souros' stated goal is to "bring down facist America." He wants a one-Worldgovernment, where all decisions are made by the UN. He has said so in no uncertain terms many times. He wants heavy taxation of the "wealthy", a sort of take from the rich, give to the poor menatality. Yet, little of his money is in the US, or even his native country. The vast majority of his assets are in offshore accounts and is untaxable. He is an America-hating hypocrite. This is the man many of you support while claiming to speaking in the best interest of the USA. If Souros has his way there will be no USA. Go ahead then, give him your money. Help him spread his propoganda. help him destroy the United States of America. Who is the Betrayer? Souros, not Petraeus. Souros supporters, not Petraeus. If you give one dime to MoveOn.org it is you who is the betrayer. Very few, if any of you know what the situation on the ground in Iraq is. You have a position, an agenda you want pushed forward. You ignore any evidence that hinders that agenda and continue to spout the propoganda fed to you by liars. You are Kool-aid drinkers. You have zero evidence to back the claims made against General Petraeus. Yet there is evidence to back his report. You are selling out your country to a man who wants to bring it down. Souros is no different than Ahmenidejad or Bin-Laden. They all hate the US and want to see it laid to waste. You are aiding them in their mad quest.

Moveon.org did nothing to apologize for.  Democrats are weaklings and republicans, sad to say, are just stupid.

Petraeus has no integrity.  He's a disgrace to the uniform he has the nerve to wear.  He's about as close to a traitor as you can get without being charged for it.

General B., sir, you are supposed to be a military man.  You are supposed to be nonpartisan.  You are supposed to care about the welfare of your troops and the security of your country.  Instead, you have shamelessly thrown all that out the window to become not a only a politician but a mouthpiece for a man whose policies you don't actually respect or agree with.

You're insisting we stay in Iraq. You don't care how many soldiers die.  You just want to be famous.  You want to be the "war general" to Bush's "war president" stupidity.  You know the military is out of soldiers and that this surge cannot be maintained but instead of admitting this and alerting the people of the coutnry you claim to serve, you have swept it under the rug on Bush's orders.  You state that some troops should come home but it amounts to nothing other than for Bush to cry crocodile tears that this is happening because of liberals opposing the war nopt because of his profound incompetence and lack of anything resembling intelligence.

Your assessment of the situation in Iraq is as shamelessly phony as your pretense of being some kind of military genius.  You look, talk and act pretty stupid to be honest.

That you would willingly allow Bush to use you as his hand puppet so that he can make himself look like the military are his buddies and colleagues is not only disgraceful on your part but there is going to come a time in the future, sir, after we have been chased out of Iraq that the public will scream for your blood.  When that happens, just remember that you brought it on yourself with your outrageous behavior.

You, sir, have betrayed the American people, you have betrayed the military and you have betrayed your own principles--assuming you ever had any, which I strongly doubt. You are indeed General Betrayus.

Bush makes a bunch of nonsensical noise about "conditions of the ground dictating the policy instead of Washington politics" as if all antiwar people are screaming for withdrawal just because they want to see us lose--as though we stand on the brink of victory but the damned liberals are keeping us from claiming it.  The reason we want a withdrawal IS because of conditions on the ground--WHICH ARE TERRIBLE!!  

What have you done about it, general?  Nothing other than carrying out a policy that a military like yourself should recognize is...uhh...fatally flawed, shall we say?  In a year or so, nobody on this planet will ever again call you a genius.  I could call you a few things but genius is definitely not one of them.

And remember, if you continue to lie to the American people, there will be no crawling back under that rock that Bush found you cowering beneath before he made you his favorite sock puppet.  In a few more months you will be giving the American people a new long-awaited speech--the "It Wasn't My Fault" speech.  But here's the lowdown, general: it is.

Now, get out of my face.  I think I hear Bush yelling about his shoes not being polished enough.  I believe that's your cue.

If you hide behind a general, as Bush is doing with Petraeus, you bring him into the political arena. All this outrage by the right, while they stymie a bill that would allow the decent men and women of our armed forces a break from battle equal in length to the time they were fighting for OUR COUNTRY in Iraq and Afganistan. This argument by the Republicans, is just another stupid smokescreen to hide their total disregard for the brave troops fighting a senseless war as best they can against overwhelming odds!

---> I see facts and opinion in his posts

Typical left wing, spoon feed, moveon, regurgitated spew.

Let me guess, you also see dead people.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism.

The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.

To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.

We do not move forward by curtailing people’s liberty because we are afraid of what they may do or say.

Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels -- men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, we may never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.

According to our Fearless Decide,  G.W. Bush, Saddam killed Nelson Mandela! But Mandela apparently hasn't been informed of his demise as of yet. And people used to wonder if Reagan was senile during his presidency. He was a genius compared to Duhbya. Is it any wonder that Iraq is such an unmitigated disaster with an ignorant jerk like Bush running it?

Herm - I'm not condoning Kerry's lack of a spine.  He should have told the police to leave the kid alone.  But he said nothing and for that I have lost all respect for him as both a Democrat and a leader.  But everyone here should condem the action of the police on that kid.  Everyone of us here should stand up for our right to free speech and the right to dissent.  It's the bedrock of our country and the first amendment in the Bill of Rights.  Unless you and Jerry want to amend the Constitution to say only certain speech is acceptable.  Is that what I'm hearing you say?

RIGHT ON! MOVE ON!

R Stein - Memphis...The only moon bats around here are the intellectually small, narrow minded, bigoted, hateful ones who don't believe in rights for anyone but themselves.  

Nah, Justine.  But we sure see BRAIN dead wingnuts!

>>Typical left wing, spoon feed, moveon, regurgitated spew.

Ad Hominem attack.

>>Let me guess, you also see dead people.

Changing the subject/conflating unrelated issues.

Is this all you've got Justine?
(Next up:  "Shut up! Shut up!  Cut off his mike!")

You have yet to counter any fact or opinion with any form of reasoning.  I really wish the educational system in this country was better.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Iraq.

Justine, why can't you contribute anything of substance here? Is that the best you can do... hurl more nonsensical trash and personal attacks? You can do better than that... or can you?

Once again I see that the basic Rightwing method of discourse is seriously lacking in the 'substance' area. When people (such as our friend Justine) resort to cheap shots and unfunny mockery then the intelligent among us can easily see that they are lost confused souls who are foundering at sea with no dry land in sight.

>>The only moon bats around here are the intellectually small, narrow minded, bigoted, hateful ones who don't believe in rights for anyone but themselves.  

Ad Hominem attack.

Laurie, I disagree with your conclusions.  We'll leave the analysis of my intellectual size aside for the moment.

I see a large group of people quoting facts and statistics and defending people's freedom of speech,mostly politely.

I also see a small group of people insulting them.

If you have something to contribute to the conversation besides insults, I'd be happy to hear it.
I do have a question for you, though.
Does your patriotism extend to all of America, or does it stop at the borders of the Republican Party?

Perhaps the 'cheap shot hurlers' here can pause and closely examine the Presidential quotes that have been posted. Of course, take your time as they can be a challenge to comprehend if your brain has been contaminated with the rhetoric from the likes of lousy AM Righty talkers.

I understand that MoveOn has been swamped with e-mails thanking them for speaking out and asserting their right to free speech. In fact since the vote in Congress the donations have been pouring in.  They have raised $500,000 from Americans who agree that we've been lied to again and again about this war and the reasons we are really there.  Looks like the Republican's sleezy little tactic is about to backfire.  So much for the attempt at censurship.

M. Boley - I couldn't have said it any better....no substance whatsoever.

I’ve certainly found most of the comments entertaining but scary too. When you stop exerting the enormous amounts of time and energy fighting about whose left wing or right wing, liberal or conservative, democrat or republican, rich or poor, you might start thinking about what’s really important. Life… While we argue about nonsense, no matter what your political position is, our friends and family are dying. Dead is dead and death is final. Whose friend or family will die next? If we don’t do something to stop the killing, we are just as guilty as if we pulled the trigger ourselves. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself and I believe GOD is watching… Ian G, you’re on to something.

I wonder why Congress hasn't passed a bill condemning Petraeus' boss, Admiral Fallon, who reportedly called Petraeus an a**-kissing chicken-s*** sycophant.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=39235

At least when MoveOn Called Petraeus "General Betrayus," it was not using language unsuitable for younger or more sensitive viewers.

And Beachdog, it's Soros, not Souros.  He's conributed 5 million to MoveOn, but does not own it or run it.

He also contributed 3 million annually to the Solidarity movement in Poland since 1979, helping bring down Soviet rule there.

Your "quote" seems to be about about bringing down fascism, not America. I'd love a link to where he said that, I can't find it.  He also has been involved in some questionable trading practices.

I'd suggest doing research before ranting.  It's easy these days - if you can post, you can do a google search.

Guys: MK and M. have it correctly: when these guys bring up tasers and SUV's...steer the debate back to Iraq. Ignore the ad hominem attacks, post evidence, and expose their fallacies.

This will never be an even argument. Like Bush's idea of compromise (gimme a bill I can sign), wingnuts are not interested in debate or enlightenment. You're challenging their world-view, and they don't like it.

Ignore these guys...your target should always be the centrists...those who don't drink the Kool Aid and are capable of listening.

As Justine notes above: seeing facts and opinion is "spew." How can you have an intelligent debate with reasoning like that?

I joined MoveOn early in the skirmish to save our constitution.  They're young and they're feisty.  If our country is to survive torture, timeless prison camps and endless war for oil for the wealthy, we need to back MoveOn and others of similar courage.

"Is this all you've got Justine?
(Next up:  "Shut up! Shut up!  Cut off his mike!")"

LOL!

Yeah. And then after that... "Just give him the Taser! That's right, just give it to him, give it to him, give it to him, make him compliant, make him a sheep, make him an unthinking robot, make him smooch Bush's ass, make him stupid, just give it to him! Now!" BZZZZZ!!!

LMAO...

Why is it that all the intelligent sayings and snippets of wisdom come from  our leaders of the past? Hmmmmmmm

Hi Laurie, I'm sorry, I misinterpreted on of your posts.  Reading too fast, I guess.  
We're on the same side!

And a tip of the hat to M. Boley.

All they have are lies and intimidation.  We just use the truth.

I wish these posted faster.
Again, I apologize to Laurie.
My bad.

I think we've effectively spanked the conservatives.
They've fallen silent.

MK Los Angeles, I have contributed to the debate here.  You just haven't been listening....must be that small, closed mind I've been speaking about.  Again, I'm not attacking your patriotism, I'm attacking your denial of the patriotism that others have that just don't agree with you.

MK - Sorry, but I thought you were one of those small minded people that post here.  Glad we're on the same side. You know it's all that passion..LOL!!

"All they have are lies and intimidation.  We just use the truth."

This purty much sums up the thread.

Now... I would like to see a challenge from 'the other side' on this but I fear it would just be more of the usual tired "you HATE America" tripe.

Facts, logic, intelligence, rational discourse, respect, compromise... THOSE are what's needed to pull this country out of this nightmare. I'm sick and tired of all the fearmongering and paranoia, the 'gotta look behind your back' mentality, and the official lies from the Administration. Looking back, I really believe that all those 'terror alerts' that put the 'spectrum' into our living rooms each night were just political stunts designed to intimidate people into voting for more of the same. How many of those 'alerts' had any real substance to them? Seems to me that it was the worst sort of political manipulation.

Hate to break it to ya, Righties, but I am more intelligent than that. I can see right through that charade for the scam that it really is. Just because Dick Cheney can commandeer a podium and parrot the "terrorists are out there to get us" line time and time again does not make it factually accurate. They will get us if they are determined enough... you cannot stop every single threat. And after all, this is coming from the guy who said that Iraq would basically be a cakewalk. We know the rest of the story.

Another thing - I find it interesting that the word 'hate' is used so much by people on the Right. Perhaps, just perhaps, they are simply projecting their own weaknesses upon us.

Welcome back Darren!! Afraid to use your old wrinkled name?

How goes the yard irrigation industry?

Thanks for replying, I was feeling really bad about my mistake!

The Repugnants support the troops by voting down a measure to give them a year's rest between their endless and innumerable deployments.  They support the troops by giving them substandard care at Walter Reed.  They support the troops by telling the people responsible for giving disability benefits at the VA to give as few and little as possible. They support the troops and their families by lying about Tillman as long as they could get away with it.  If this is support, I'd hate to see what neglect looks like!

Dark clouds will pass shadows over tinted eyes.

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Friday, September 21, 2007 11:05 AM)

Rather a silly statement...but ENJOY! While the sun is shining and the Saudis arrive to save Texas oil.
Is this "Beverly Hillbilly" time, again?

Hey Mark Thieme, which one is Darren?  Do you mean from MB,SC?

What's the difference between Mark Levin, or Rush, and Moveon.org asks M Boley?  Simple.  The first two are entertainers... granted they are entertainers who say what a lot of conservatives (yes, Hillarious, there really IS a vast right wing conspiracy your Thighness) are thinking.  Do I vote based on Rush's recommendations?  No.  Occasionally, he flames somebody I agree with, or takes the opposite side of an issue from me.  Am I personally insulted?  No.  However Moveon.org is not entertainment, they hold themselves out as a serious voice in the political process.  Since I'm also a veteran, even though I don't like Army officers, I'll be d*mned if I'll let some liberal organization take potshots at them.  

pride comes before a fall. never seen so much arrogance in one place before.

ignorance is bliss

Fiji:
I always thought a summer came before a fall... you know the leaves turning and all?

And I thought Pride was some kind of wood polish... what d'ya know?

Well, Derek, you can bet your ass that the listeners of those shows take everything the talkers say seriously. And THAT is the issue: these talkers spout opinions but frame them as facts which is incorrect. Opinions are not facts.

And the name-calling (Her Thighness) is just flat-out ridiculous. These radio hacks act as if they haven't graduated from elementary school. Same thing can be said about their devoted listeners and believers too. About as sophisticated as uneducated dimwits who gets off on pranking people with Whoopie Cushions.

It was absolutely wrong for the General to be put in the position he was. Unprecedented, a line between military and partisan gov't was crossed that simply is NOT to be crossed. It was a given that someone would take a "pot shot". Shoot low sherrif he's ridin a shetland.

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