I'm just astonished that we can't get health care reform, meaningful environmental legislation, and stronger homeland security bills passed, but this nonsense get's a vote? Again, this all a waste of time, thanks to Republicans who gave us the Impeach Clinton distraction from the real issues troubling this country.

What utter stupidity.  As an independent, I certainly didn't think the ad was the best method for moveon to use, but this is a waste of Congress's time; personally, I would just abstain from voting to protest the political circus, just as all these Democrats should be doing.  Those who actually vote to condemn moveon really deserve to be primaried by other Democrats for wasting taxpayer money on chasing GOP frames instead of doing the people's business; it's insulting and counterproductive on so many levels, far more than the moveon ad itself ever was.

Another hit on our democracy. Freedom of speech. I guess because bush thought it was terrible the congress and senate have to go along. I can't wait until the bush/cheney era is behind us.

Why didn'the Republican House condemn the Swiftboater's attacks on Senator Kerry...I see: "what's good for tha gander, is not necessarily good for the goose" so saith the Pubicans

Another non-binding vote you say?  What is the House up to, a few dozen non-binding resolutions for the year?  Good to see Nancy is making good progress on the Democratic agenda.

Easier to condemn free speech than do your job I guess. Quasi Democrats...LOL...good one!

Work hard Congress!
September to Date
Total Killed in Action: 62
59 US
2 UK
1 Other

Total Civilian Killed: Don't know, God is still sorting them out.

You know why this bill does so will in Congress: because Demos are not for complete freedom of speech.  They are against hate speech (which I am for, I guess) and this is certainly consistent with that position.  Hate speech is repulsive, rarely leads to improving any situation directly but it is a part of what makes this nation, errr, great.  Who is government to tell me what I can and cannot say?

Well, that and their lack of spine when it comes to this stupid war--see red/blue state demos divide.  STRENGTHEN our national security, Bring the Troops Home!  It's not only support our troops, so I'm offering another rally cry.

I can't believe the repubs are really that affected by an advertisement.  Grow up already.  It was a fair article, your diversion from the facts of the war is not fair.  And the demos were too stupid to fall for it.

It's also nice to see that the Repubs have gotten over their disapproval of non-binding legislation.

Cuz for the war's non-binding measures: that was just a political stunt.  Ha!

The General has to hide behind the skirts of a bunch of wimpy Congressmen.

If his report was so important, why wasn't he sworn in?

MoveOn to impeachment

[T]his all a waste of time, thanks to Republicans who gave us the Impeach Clinton distraction from the real issues troubling this country.


Nancy is incompetent because of the Republicans?  Wonders never cease.

I'm a retired Sergeant Major and an Independent.  This is just another case of Republican political BS.  I've been called far worse for far less by better folks than MoveOn and just kept on going.  Patraeus is a big boy and he can handle it.  The do nothing Congress needs to get on with real business and get us out of a misguided war and get some health care reform going.

I thought Pelosi squelched this absurdity - absolutely pitiful and a monumental waste of time.  The democrats really are beginning to look as bad as the republicans with all the hubris going around on this issue.  It's getting pretty hard to have any respect for the democrats and they may pay a price with their base for all the vascillating on real issues - continual funding of the war and rolling over for Bush comes to mind.   They just don't have a plan - as usual.

It is sad that ALL politicians are the SAME, Dem or Rep., they are in it for themselves. I thought we were in America but Bush has taken care of all that with his judges in and making America look and act like a dictatorship. Thanks policitians, but remember people do not forget.

General Petraeous was appointed only after all other Generals said we should get out of Iraq.  He is a Bush puppet and the Moveon.org ad was right on.  Why do the democrates take up this issue when there are so many more issues that need to be addressed?  

Oh wait - Pelosi does have a plan....running for the
Senate in '08.

Non binding legislation! Wasn't bush against this before he was for it?

This is really ridiculous. how about the swift boat fiasco. Politics ain't beanbags and we have a free market democracy not censorship where people are supposed to make up their minds.
How about Bush's planted question  at the end of a press conference that reeked of politics.  

It is what the repukes do best, do nothing and pass GAS!  It must be a terrible burden being a repuke.
The most vicious debasing do nothing bunch of killers and warmongers ever.
 The repuks in Congress are clones of the WORST President EVER!!
Donate to moveon.  Donate I will, again and again.

It is what the repukes do best, do nothing and pass GAS!  It must be a terrible burden being a repuke.
The most vicious debasing do nothing bunch of killers and warmongers ever.
 The repuks in Congress are clones of the WORST President EVER!!
Donate to moveon.  Donate I will, again and again.

A 2nd appeal;

vanreuter, NY NY--
Hi Van. I'd like to introduce you to
bubba (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:58 AM).
As you can read from his post bubba has many misconceptions about the Clinton's in general and Hillary in particular. He seems to hold many urban legends to be truth. I disagree with him on just about everything he believes about the Clinton's. But the fact is, neither you or I are going to convince him otherwise. There are a lot of bubba's out there. The most positive thing about the bubba's is that they are not Bush fans and that given the proper alternative they would vote for a Democrat that they feel is offering the best course of change for this country. This country needs a President with a landslide victory and a mandate to move forward. We can't handle another photo finish election with a congress that is paralysed. We need the bubba's for this. We need a candidate with broad appeal and low negatives.
Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:37 AM)



I replied


We need the bubba's for this. We need a candidate with broad appeal and low negatives.

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:37 AM)

Look Gary, you are obviously an anyone but Clinton guy, and spouting a couple of urban myths yourself.

Here are the current fav/unfav #'s for the candidates

http://rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/favorables/election_2008_democratic_candidates_running_in_2008_presidential_election

Please note that Clinton's favorables are comparable to Obama and Edwards. Their negatives are lower, but so is their recognition.
Winning by a landslide would be nice, but NO candidate guarantees a landslide in the general election.

Clinton is much more popular in the democratic party than her two top challengers;

"Among Democratic contenders, this week’s polling brought few changes. Hillary Clinton is viewed favorably by 81% of Democrats and unfavorably by 17%. Seventy percent (70%) of Democrats have a favorable opinion of John Edwards while 21% say the opposite. Barack Obama’s numbers are 62% favorable, 30% unfavorable. Democrats see little ideological difference between their leading candidates, but Clinton is viewed as the most electable Democrat. Clinton remains solidly in front of the pack among those seeking the Democratic Presidential nomination."

Winning the general election is all that is necessary to win and the last guy claimed a mandate when he didn't have one. Logically speaking for a democratic candidate, it would be important for that candidate to get most of the DEMOCRATS to vote for them. You can disagree with the numbers, but they favor Clinton in a big way. It's hard to make a case for republicans and independents flocking to a candidate who is at 30% unfavorable within their own party. or to knock one who is seen favorably by over EIGHTY percent of the same.
Read David Brooks' article; Hillary will get the moderate vote in the general because she IS a moderate, centrist, democrat. It is illustrated here by the fact that the extreme left says that she's just like Bush (Which is ridiculous) while the extreme right says that she's a socialist.
The argument that her candidacy represents, "more of the same", when electing the first woman in our history is well, history making, is also bogus and repeated here ad infinitum.

There will NOT be a candidate with low negatives, democrat or republican. Look at the numbers and it's obvious that the candidates for both parties will be running someone who has an unfavorable rating in the mid forties. You are only pointing to the unfavorables because they are the only place where the other candidates have even a slight advantage.

You insist that we can't win without the center, yet strongly reject the candidate who represents that demographic, despite all of the evidence to that fact.
There have been a half-dozen articles over the past couple of days attesting to the fact that Clinton appeals to the heart and soul bedrock, "Beer-track", of the party and that Edwards and Obama appeal to the intellectual, or "Wine Track", segment. Which better exemplifies the center?
By your own logic, you should be supporting Clinton, not grasping for reasons not to. She will be a great candidate, really DOES represent change, the most significant change to the office of President in 230 years. If you study her career and record you find a much different person than is depicted by the crazies here, many of whom are not democrats anyway.
Thinly veiled attempts to cast her as unelectable are going to be out there until she is elected, I hope you find the logic that allows you to leave that camp in time for the general election


Van
vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:04 AM)--
How does she fair in the General election Van? That is all that matters.

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 10:42 AM)


Why do you address me as though I own the polls?

Here are the RCP averages of all the available polls.Clinton leads in all the aggregates;

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/national.html

Even you should be able to see that your logic is dictated by your conclusion: You don't like Clinton and don't want to see her nominated or elected, so first you say that polls don't matter, them if she's the most popular democrat in the polls, it's the independents who are most important. When she dominates the other candidates in the national numbers and state primaries, it's about how she has high unfavorables or that the only numbers that matter are the general election numbers.

You are playing a shell game and calling it rational thought. You have to compartmentalize your thinking and your assessment of the available information to tailor it to fit your feelings.
It doesn't really matter if John Edwards looks better in the general election polls when he can't get to 20% in his own party. Even if Ron Paul CRUSHED all competition in general election polls, the fact that he can't get 3% support in his own party makes the other statistic moot.

Van
vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 1:37 PM)



Gary replies



vanreuter, NY NY--Stop telling me what I think. I post what I think and it requires no analysis or interpretation. I have no hidden meanings or agendas and I have stated my respect for Mrs. Clinton and have full confidence in her ability to govern. I will vote for the nominee of the party and until then I will express my opinion that we should choose the Candidate with the broadest appeal and the biggest coat tails.
Democrats on both sides who threaten to vote for the other party if their candidate is not the nominee need to stop and think what they are saying. Democrats on both sides who call into question other democrats...loyalty?... to the party need to lighten up a tad. This is intramural kids, no need to break any bones before the big game. Chill
Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Tuesday, September 25, 2007 3:20 PM)



What the? Gary seems like he wants to have a conversation, but he bridles at the opportunity to do so, even when HE is the one initiating the conversation.

Gary, everyone can see that I am saying a lot more than telling you what you think, and the fact that you do not address the greater part of my REPLIES to specific questions you asked ME demands explanation.

I address the issues that you raise and cite sources besides my own opinion to buttress my refutation. You addressed me Gary. READ your own questions, directed at me. Read my answers. I am addressing your points, not attacking you, yet your reply is one of someone who has been insulted. Did I insult you by doing my best to address the points you made in your posts to me?

I don't get your reply to my answers to the 2 posts you specifically addressed to me. You raised salient points, I did my best to answer them. Why didn't you address MY points countering your argument? I thought that's what you wanted, otherwise, why would you ask SPECIFIC questions and address them directly and only to me?

Don't you think that I deserve a better reply than the one you left? I actually took the time to consider your points and gave you the courtesy of a reply. If you didn't want a dialoge, why did you start one?



Van

This is not a waste of time. It is a disgrace to pull a political attack on a General that is serving presently. He is a leader of soldiers in combat and soldiers look up to this guy. MoveOn is a silly organization anyway. BTW, John Kerry is not currently serving and the Ads were about something 30 yrs ago. If it wasnt true then why did it work so well? The media says its not true so the rest of the Dems jump on it as if the media (NYT) is god.

"Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with you!"  

It is sad that you all want the troops home, yet you slander one of the leaders in the process. You all yell "support the troops" but when it comes down to it, it's just talk since you've been sucked into the left's agenda because you don't like Bush. There are other alternatives besides Bush and slandering leftists. Just be sure you know what bandwagon you're on before your destination. Oh, and supporting the troops means ALL of them...hypocrites.

It's hard to believe that many of the Democrats are enabling the Republicans to focus on anything other than Iraq.  Shame on you democrats!  These enablers who are voting to condemn MoveOn should be held accountable come the next election.

Question: Why didn'the Republican House condemn the Swiftboater's attacks on Senator Kerry..


Answer: Because those were true.

What a rotten ass bunch of republicans. They don't want to deal with the important issues that will save lives, just continue to BS and avoid and politicize the crap out of everything. Well, the little monkey is THEIR leader. Figures.

Gen. Petraeus should have said he could take some name calling and could take care of himself. Instead he is continuing to be a partisan enabler who doesn't put the country, the soldiers and the American people first. I guess he really is a chickenshit chickenhawk. At first I felt some sympathy but now I think he needs more calling out of what he is.

Don't these people have anything better to do?  Iraq, health care, crumbling infrastructure, porous ports, terrorism a growing threat thanks to Bush Administration malfeasance -- and this bunch of pseudo-macho clowns are having the vapors because WAAH....MOVEON SAID MEAN THINGS.  What a bunch of WATBs.  And the Democrats are fools for getting sucked into it.

It's an ad.  It ran once.  Does it really warrant two weeks of breastbeating by Congress?

Al Franken has the right idea in this op-ed:  http://www.startribune.com/562/story/1445784.html

IntheMuddle said "If it wasnt true then why did it work so well?"

Many backward people and cultures have used that argument for justification of horrific deeds. They would tie a stone to an accused witch, throw her in the water and if she drowned it meant she was guilty.

Any Democrat that votes for this is nothing but  a COWARD.  Who are they pandering to??

Thanks for that link JJ. It was interesting to read that the Republicans voted against a general resolution condemning personal attacts on all who have served the country honorably.  They wanted to reserve the right to continue personal attacks on people such as Max Cleland, John Kerry and John McCain.  They only condemn attacks on 'their' guys.

"It's an ad.  It ran once.  Does it really warrant two weeks of breastbeating by Congress?"


3- 4 weeks.

Freedom Fries, anyone?

I vote to censure Congress for failing to uphold the First Anmendment. Now, how the hell do we do that?

MoveOn already!  Don't we have more important things to do?  I guess the House Republicans didn't learn their lesson last week when people were disgusted at the waste of time when this bill came up in the Senate.  

They should have a vote to condemn Lee Harvey Oswald, and see if  democrats can tell the difference between someone who has served, and someone who is serving.

I hear another winter soldier fell today. Someone named Jessie MacBeth???? dunno This is the only far left site I visit now.

It's not like everybody but the most ignorant fools don't know the Repubs are a bunch of cynical a-holes. What's really ironic is that they are covering Bush's ass for making the top general his personal flunky. If he had wanted a good general who was not his flunky, he would have kept Shinseki, who was smarter than the sleezes who criticized him and got him out a year early. Maybe that was Shinseki's mistake - as every good student knows, the one unforgivable sin in academia is being smarter than the teacher. This must work in politics as well. So, these prostitutes are in effect going after MoveOn for telling the truth. Lots of luck making it stick with anyone but Bush-voting morons, you crooked scumbags.

They're drawin' boxes on the ground.

Carrie: MoveOn already!  Don't we have more important things to do?


Pointing out that the Democrats are owned by an extremist organziation is important to a lot of people.  You're just thinking a little Lysol will make the smell go away.  Trouble is, the smell goes all the way to the core of the Democratic party.

Dave just gave it away that he is one of the 'dittoheads'.

Nice to see that you cannot think for yourself... instead, you gotta allow some 'radio guy' to do it for you.

  I am so past this ad but why do the republicans want to keep reviving it? Remember they attached this to a spending bill. What the hell does this have to with spending? Ooh thats right the republicans suck so bad and have nothing to run on that they are creating issues. They can not run on anything positive. Republicans are only good at scaring americans. They do not want to debate or solve any issues. It goes against being a republican. Remember republicans hate government and thus they run it like crap. They create massive deficits so government can not spend to help our veterans or supply prpoer armor for our troops. Republicans want to destroy government except to creat a military economy and to spy on americans. These are the only 2 issues republicans are good at. They can not give enough money to the military, even if the weapon is no good Star Wars, these idiots would bankrupt our country to feel safe. Republicans also love BIG BROTHER. They only want government to spy and arrest as many americans as possible. The thought of government actually helping americans repulses republicans. Republicans will say, anybody that wants government to help are socialists. But they can not spend enough money on other countries. Just never ask a republican to help , they automatically call you a socialist/communist. Notice that republicans are all talk and no walk. They can only talk tough. Republicans will never lift a finger to help their fellow americans or fight for their country.

Willie Parker, Pittsburg--Why is it then, Willie, that it is your party that is on the way to the Political wilderness? Have you smelled your own stink lately? Don't let the screen door hit you in the a**.  

Willie Parker, Pittsburg / rubbish willie, most dems thought that the add was unnecessary, but none the less it is not the most sinister thing that has ever occurred, fox news is still bringing it up hourly, makes them look ridiculous, and no one even mentions what was actually stated in the ad which just pointed out that the good generals testimony may be somewhat tainted, any reasonable person already knew what they pointed out

I just don't understand what the leftist are saying with bring the troops home, But leave troops there to fight Al-Qida.  Who do you think is causing the bloodsed among it's own people?  Ask the troops over there if they think the job is finished.  They are the heros.  They believe in what freedom is and what it cost.  Demo's claim to support our troups but still say nothing and collect money from MoveOn.org.  The best thing is to vote all of them out and start a new house and senate.

Gen. David Petraeus is a wimp and GOP lap dog.  He should have been the first to call on Senate and House Republicans to keep their eye on the ball, getting the U.S. out of Iraq and not friutless non-binding resolutions.

Have any of the Repub idiots ever read the 1st Amendment. Like it or not, the MoveOn.org ad was appropriate discourse in the public square. Dubya made Petraeus a public figure. How many of us knew much about him before this? Get over it!

P.S. to InTheMiddle - Generals often are political figures. Dubya made Petraeus a political figure by saying his report would govern the President's next move on Iraq policy. Petraeus himself took on a broader political role by permitting the Petraeus "report" to be sanitized by White House neo-cons (most of whom never served in the military). Yes, I know he said HE never presented his testimony to the White House before reporting to Congress, but where do you think it went when shared with his bosses prior to Congressional testimony?  If little David didn't want to assume his token role he could have chosen a brave alternative such as resignation or retirement.  More importantly, that lap dog could have told Congress the truth!        

This is why dems don't get trusted with our national security...they are a bunch of weenies...they let the reps slap them around on a bill that covers the not so swifties type stuff but will vote for some meaningless tripe that makes chickenhawks like jerry and ryan feel good...uh huh

"They should have a vote to condemn Lee Harvey Oswald, and see if  democrats can tell the difference between someone who has served, and someone who is serving. "

We're the ones who have served - remember, chicken hawk?

Actually, Willie, I am thinking that there are a hell of a lot more important issues for this government to deal with than an advertisement in the NYT.  And seriously, is this is all the Republicans have to attack the Dems, they are in big trouble.  

"Don't let the screen door hit you in the a**." but don't worry about the draw bridge, Willie - it'll only hurt for a second.

With the majority cngrssional Democrats, congressional action is getting more Republlican everyday.  Remember all those denoucements of swiftwater...whose staments were shown to be untrue; and the Impeachement of Clinton for getting a blowjob.

"It is a disgrace to pull a political attack on a General that is serving presently."

Then he shouldn't have stepped into the political arena by being yet another stooge for Bush.

Step in shit and you will get dirty. Simple as that.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):