Which of these sounds like the other?

Posted: Friday, September 28, 2007 1:05 PM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under: Democrats, Joe Biden

From NBC's Chuck Todd and Domenico Montanaro
Check out the "Senator A" vs. "Senator B" sidebar in this column by National Journal’s Jonathan Rauch.

Here are two quotes. One by Clinton, one by Obama. Can you tell which senator said what?

Senator A: “The best way to protect our security and to pressure Iraq's leaders to resolve their civil war is to immediately begin to remove our combat troops. Not in six months or one year -- now."

Senator B: "It is long past time that the president ended American combat involvement in Iraq's multisided, sectarian civil war.... It is time to begin ending this war. Not next year, not next month, but today."

Very interesting. This is just one example. There is a whole column of these. Certainly says a lot about how Clinton has blurred the lines and how Obama has not distinguished himself.

The column becomes quite complimentary toward Biden:

“By now, even cynics can't help noticing something different about Biden. Different from his previous presidential run, in 1987, and different from the other candidates today. The glibly garrulous wonder boy of two decades ago can still talk a blue streak; but age (he is 64), his institutional position as chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, and the prospect of a devastating U.S. setback in Iraq have made him the leading contender for the most beloved (among columnists) and dreaded (by candidates) designation in American politics: that of the grown-up in the race.”

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Comments

Clinton - Obama

One has been. One never will be.

Kent Edens (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:12 PM)

Yo Domenico,
Where are you coming from when you say Obama isn't distinguishing himself? The two sound different to me! Obama says NOW (Senator A), and Clinton is rhetorical.(Senator B) The statements appear consistent for the past several months and it was easy for me to tell the difference. Obama intimates a plan. Clinton does not.
Regardless, at this early date they still haven't made it easy to pick between them.

Original Bob, New Haven, CT (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:18 PM)

Obama is "A" and Clinton is "B". The reason it seems that he can't distinguish himself from her is because she continues to copy his every statements and rhetoric. She is the one who blurs the line, but if the moderators continues to ask Obama the questions first during the debates, giving Hilary the opportunity to do just that, what do you expect?

Indeed, he'll have to find away to make and keep the distinction, but she'll also continue to blur the differences between them enough to fool the MSM; and you guys will continue to say how great she is, even after she is copying him.

RAH - Washington State (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:18 PM)

You could do the same thing with quotes from America's enemies and democrats, and not be able to tell who said what. Whether democrats like it or not they all sound like they're using the same "talking points memo". I'm sure the videos will show up closer to election time.

Dave, Tn (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:20 PM)

It is hard to distinguish between the two because you idiots failed to press Clinton on answering questions. All she has said so far is " I can't comment on "Hypotetical". Whay can't you guys just do your job instead of looking for a fight?

In fact, i have lost my entire faith regarding media in this country. The only guy that still comand my respect is "Tim Russert" and the rest are bunch of gabbage.

Tim is the only guy that press HRC regarding are flip-floping position no one else ever came close.

Toris (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:21 PM)

CitizenJ (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:23 PM)

Tweedle-De and Tweedle-Gone.

ART - Delaware (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:28 PM)

A) Is Obama, because he speaks about national security.

B) Is Clinton, because she likes to harp on the president.

I'll bet I'm right. Seriously though, you can find examples where the candidates agree and where they disagree with their colleagues.

Nicholas, Minneaps, MN (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:30 PM)

Continuing the destruction of a great candidate! If Obama does not play by the media's rules they will do everything they can to destroy him. The American people are smarter than you think Chuck Todd and Domenico Montanaro. You don't have to play dirty to get your point across. Obama isn't the media's candidate..HE'S THE PEOPLES CANDIDATE!

Could you find some time to report that even though he can't so-called "distinguish himself from Hillary" that yesterday 24,000 people showed up to hear him speak in NYC. I guess you can't do that can you.
What a load of crap this election has become!

Erik (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:38 PM)

Doesnt that blurring of the line sort of also undermines Hillary's experience argument ?
I mean if they both end up with the same message, it means that with less classical experience, Obama once again reaches the same supposedly right conclusions about policy. So experience does not seem to matter much when it comes down to it, does it ?
And therefore the only difference is that Republicans hate her while independants like him.
Mmmmm.

nhuixnhuix, San Francisco CA (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:39 PM)

I think we have three journalists here who can't think of anything new to say, and are resorting to stating the obvious.

Amy B Portland, ME (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:56 PM)

After the last six years, it would be nice to have a "grown up" in the Whitehouse too.

Virginia (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:56 PM)

Go Chuck and Domenico. Designate away. A soft spoken man who speaks with the conviction of the wisdom of his years would not be the worst thing for this Country. I think the qualities you mentioned will appeal to the center. And you can't win the General without the Center.
Dad for President!

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:57 PM)

Those quotations in the column mainly referred to Iraq. Is there that much difference between the two candidates when it comes to Iraq? I don't think there is. Both think we need to get the troops out, sooner rather than later. Both think that there is no military solution to the problems in Iraq and that we need to handle it diplomatically. They differ more in the specifics than in the general positions about the conflict in Iraq.

Carrie, Eastern Iowa (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:59 PM)

I'll take the Grown-up.

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:17 PM)

It's hard to distinguish yourself when Clinton waits until everyone has presented their views/plans, and then carbon copies them, knowing that the MSM will tout is as genious and yet another sign of her inevitability.

CitizenJ (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 1:23 PM)

Could you BE any more biased than you are?

This is all about how much you hate Hillary and nothing else. The reality is that the two senators have similar voting records in the senate, similar views on most topics and will find it easy to support the other, regardless of who wins the nomination.
They sound alike because they are both DEMOCRATS.
you can compare their voting records here,
http://nationaljournal.com/voteratings/sen/lib.htm?o1=lib_composite&o2=asc#vr

as they are a good indication of where a senator stands on a topic.
None of the democratic candidates are evil, even if you want to act like they are.

Van

vanreuter (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:20 PM)

One can't help but notice that the only one not dodging questions, but answering with real answers is Joe Biden. You can say Dennis K. is giving answers, but most are from another dimension. Biden gives America a known entity in the world of diplomacy and thgey can say he is a Washington insider, but he has honestly worked inside the system and has the determination and humility America needs. Iowa vote Biden please!

Frank, New York, NY (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:21 PM)

Criticizing bush and them, and their policies, does not make one "America's enemy". Loyalty and supplication to bush is not required for patriotism. No one's buying it, Dave.

Scott in South Texas (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:32 PM)

Funny that the folks who rail at the MSM seem to get the info that they claim isn't being covered/covered enough, from...the MSM!

There's a big story TODAY in both of the newspapers I read every day, the NYT and Newsday on Obama's rally.
Here is what you get when you Google, "Obama New York Rally"

http://news.google.com/news?q=obama+new+york+rally&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-22,GGGL:en&um=1&sa=N&tab=wn

There are LOTS of stories covering the rally, all in the maligned MSM. Everyone believes that their candidate isn't getting a fair shake from the media, even Clinton supporters. Everyone feels that the coverage is much more negative than it should be about their candidate, even Clinton supporters.
Blaming the MSM (Where ELSE are you going for your information?) for the coverage of your candidate is almost like blaming the weatherman FOR the weather.IMO

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:39 PM)

Senator "A" sounds like Obama. It is decisive. It commits to an action "immediately begin to remove our combat troops."

Senator "B" sounds like Clinton. Two things give it away.
1)It appears to say something but it really doesn't say anything at all.

Think about it, what action is taken if we "begin to end this war." What does the phrase "begin to end this war" even mean anyway. It could mean anything. But it doesn't specify any particular action so the speaker can come back later to say "When I said that, I meant that we would do "X". I didn't mean that we would not be fighting in Iraq."

2) It hides behind the President.

Hillary always speaks as though George Bush went into this war by himself without the support of any Republicans or Democrats in Congress. That is a misdirection. It just reeks of Clinton

Darrius, Arkansas (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:41 PM)

Folks,

I totally agree with most of the folks here.

Yesterdays rally was great, awesome and one that will be talked for long long time. I am sure Hillary(Hilarious) must be thinking what happened to my HOME STATE? Some of the reader said, RESIGM change starts from HOME!! GO BARACK.

Other thing i wanted to say is why so called fair and balance, most trusted news like MSNBC, CNN et al. not mentioning a word about Obama's NYC history making rally. I am sure, they really want Barack out of race so that Hillary can get nominated easily. Well, Chris, Tucker, Tim, Patt -- did you hear what NY and the whole country saying....?

I was amazed to hear Chris, Patt and et al, taking about NH debate, as soon as debate was over, Patt and all said Hillary won. Listen up pundits, you are spreading propaganda, hear what real ppl saying in the street of US. Even MSNBC's poll is saying Barack won but these pundits don't agree with what people say, they are in a mission to nominate HILLARY. Pundits are ignoring the facts and these polls are all full of s...

Same thing happened in 1948 Truman vs. Dewey. Those pundits at that time also predicted its going to be a landslide victory for Dewey, and then what happened? Even some papers had a headline "Dewey Defeats Truman". What a shame!!!

So, what happened to your "FAIR AND BALANCE" theme? Are you all doing free publicity/campaigning for HILLARY? Wake up folks, and please dont make us loose hope of US media.

Lets start the work here and let us work together, Thank you NY.

GO BARACK ---- GO GO !!!!

John, Arlington va (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 2:43 PM)

I think Mr. Obama is finished. I hope that I am wrong, but suspect that Sen. Clinton hasthe nomination in the bag.

Bruce, NV (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:01 PM)

vanreuter : '...the two senators have similar voting records in the senate...',

WRONG !!
Actually, Hillary voted to invade Iraq !!
Obama didn't (not being in the Senate)

Hillary voted for Joe Liebermann's 'Bomb Iran Bill'
that Sen. Webb (D-Va.) called 'Dick Cheney's fondest dream'

Why would Hillary vote to give Bush an excuse to bomb Iran ??

Is Hillary a self serving opportunist, vanreuter ?
Maybe she's just an idiot ....
What do you think, van ?
Why did Hillary vote for Lieberman's amendment ?

PS Obama didn't vote for it

Sierra, SF (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:03 PM)

I think you are right Darrius. The ambiguity in the second statement can hide many sins. Nixon's secret plan to end the Viet Nam war was to escalate the fighting, massive bombing of civilians and an invasion of Cambodia. Certainly Bush also thinks he has begun to end the war. What is needed is a clear statement of how many troops will remain after a certain time. There seems to be two candidate camps; those who want to keep our ill-gotten ill-advised gain of bases (one of the real reasons for the invasion in my opinion) and leave troops fighting to hold those forever and those who want us completely out unless it is to go back as a UN peacekeeping force.

nuanced (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:10 PM)

Sierra – you failed to note that Obama did not vote at all. Just the latest of many false and misleading statements you have made.

Wish I could see your face when Hillary takes the nomination and the White House!

csh, IL (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:11 PM)

Billy, Los Angeles, CA (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:22 PM)

RAH - If you read the article, Clinton made those statements in July. Obama made them in September. Hm...who is copying who?

At any rate, it is easy to spot Hillary - she goes after Bush more than Obama does.

Carrie, Eastern Iowa (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:22 PM)

I notice almost all these comments are about Clinton, and Obama, when it is clear that the article aims to highlight the obvious superiority of JOE BIDEN. Biden has been getting virtually no love from the Msm (except Chris Matthews), even after his Iraq bill passed the Senate. Pay attention, people, and you might actually find a candidate you'd be proud to vote for: Go JOE! BIDEN 08!

Billy, Los Angeles, CA (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:24 PM)

Wish I could see your face when Hillary takes the nomination and the White House!

Wish we can all see your face when she doesn't.

ATandT, IN (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:27 PM)

The point of the National Journal article, is that Biden is the "grown up", the responsible candidate. Given Biden is less than 5 years older than Hillary, when the journal refers to Biden as the "grown up", it relates to his superior experience, and judgment.

The other candidates don't have a plan to decrease the likelihood of civil war in Iraq. Which is why not one of the top three would commit that the troops would be out by the end of their first term in 2013. They blame Bush, yes it is his war, but the next President is going to be forced to deal with it. And none of them have a plan, which is not leadership! Sen. Biden has a detailed plan. He has the maturity, and confidence to be up front, and provide details. The rest won't attack Biden's plan either because they recognize it is the only option, or because they haven't the guts to put out their own plan, or the clue what is needed.

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:31 PM)

Carrie, Eastern Iowa: the point of Rausch's article isn't whether Obama is coping Hillary, or vice a versa, but rather that neither of them has set themselves apart with an actual plan. The point is simple Biden is the "grown up" and if there was ever a time our country needed a "grown up" it was now.

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:54 PM)

John, Arlington va wrote;
"I was amazed to hear Chris, Patt and et al, taking about NH debate, as soon as debate was over, Patt and all said Hillary won. Listen up pundits, you are spreading propaganda,"

Actually if you watched all of MSNBC's post debate commentary Pat Buchanan said "Hillary wins if she does not lose and she did not lose. So I think Hillary won tonight"

Joan Walsh of Salon.com said Edwards won.

Howard Fineman said that Obama had a cold and was off his game.

Chris Matthews didn't say who he thought won.

After Biden was interviewed Fineman changed his mind and said the debate "really wasn't one of Hillary's better performances..."

Mark, Des Moines (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:12 PM)

csh, IL : '..Sierra – you failed to note that Obama did not vote at all. Just the latest of many false and misleading statements you have made...'

Nice dodge, csh,
Why not answer the question ?
Why did Hillary vote for the Bomb Iran amendment ?
Sen. Jim Webb called it Dick Cheney's fondest dream.

What justification is there to give Bush an excuse to attack Iran ?

Ted Kennedy voted NO! Dick Durbin voted NO !
Hasn't Hillary LEARNED ANYTHING ?
What good is her 'experience' ?

And, csh I didn't say Obama no
I think he's campaigning for the Presidential nomination by meeting voters and answering their questions.
Hillary's running by pandering and voting for war !!

Why did Hillary vote for this ?
Why does Hillary support Lieberman/Kyl ?
Does Hillary want to attack Iran ?
Does Hillary want to give Bush an excuse to attack Iran ?
Is Hillary an idiot ??
Any answers, csh ?

Sierra, SF (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:15 PM)

Who said what first. Clinton has been following Obama's statements for months now. She is the student copying off of Obama's test.

sonya, atlanta,ga (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:16 PM)

"In fact, i have lost my entire faith regarding media in this country."

Me too.

Jim R., Northampton, MA (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:23 PM)

Sarah - I realize that was not the point of the article. I read the article myself. My comment was directed to RAH who stated that Hillary is copying everything Obama says. I don't think one or the other of them is "copying" per se - I think they have a lot of similar views on the issues and have not really distinguished themselves from each other. The fault of that lies with both of them.

I love Biden. I could listen to him talk forever. But I am wary of his chances in the primaries and caucuses. I think that is unfortunate because he would absolutely smoke any Republican he was put up against. Once the nominee is declared, money is not so hard to come by and your name recognition goes through the roof. Before 1992, who knew who Bill Clinton was?

Carrie, Eastern Iowa (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:38 PM)

Why don't you stupid punits start reporting the news. When was the last time a candidate attracted over 20,000 at any political event?
Answer: Obama did it several times and no one else.
Did you cover the event?
Answer: No
Will Hillary ever get 1000 to her event without her husband?
Answer: Hell no.
Case closed. you are biased. Serve the america people by reporting the news.

Jerri (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:50 PM)

Jerri (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:51 PM)

If Obama's campaign does not survive the demise will have more to do with the traditional media than his strategy. There was a interesting article in Newsweek about the expectations from the media. The premise was simply that because Hillary's unfavorables were so high she only has to appear human and the pundits will consider it a success. On the other hand, because of the amazing covention address Obama has to make everyone weep at every speech and be 40 points ahead in the polls because he is on the cover of magazines or he is a failure. For that matter, Edwards is always scrutinized for the wealth he earned as a trial lawyer, but the same stories aren't written about the Clinton wealth earned through Bill's speaking engagements. I remember watching the Pelosi documentary about covering the campaign and all the reporters reflecting that they didn't scrutinize Bush enough while the team covering Gore scrutinized everything he said or did. I would hate for the reflection to apply to this campaign as well. Either question everything or give them all a pass.

RealB.G. (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:56 PM)

The most important thing for Democrats and for the country is to win in November '08. The more I hear in the debates, the more I like Joe Biden. He's smart, principled, and electable against any Republican. (W has proven that the occasional verbal gaffe doesn't hurt electablity!) I am sick of the MSM's bias toward Clinton and Obama based on early national polls. And while I'd love to see a female or black president for symbolic reasons, it's about ELECTABILITY. Maybe Clinton or Obama would win in November, maybe not. But Biden (or Edwards) would almost certainly win. Dems, please don't throw another one away!

Charlie (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 4:58 PM)

" Carrie, Eastern Iowa: the point of Rausch's article isn't whether Obama is coping Hillary, or vice a versa, but rather that neither of them has set themselves apart with an actual plan. The point is simple Biden is the "grown up" and if there was ever a time our country needed a "grown up" it was now.

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 3:54 PM)"

Sara, Obama has a plan "he is going to withdrawn one or two brigades of combat troops a months until there are about 40 or 50 thousand supports troops left there."

Hillary is the one with no plan.

Charlie, if Biden and Edwards can't raise any more money than they are raising then they couldn't get elected. The ability to raise money to fund the campaign is the most critical part of electability.

Darrius, Arkansas (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 5:44 PM)

B U S H ' S W A R ... H E S U C K S !!!

Z (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 6:10 PM)

Carrie and csh....why do you keep dodging the issue of Hillary voting to give Bush permission to bomb Iran. Hillary obviously learned nothing!! You ignore it the same way MSNBC does. Same goes for Van. No, you'd rather address Obama hiring a former lobbyist than admit your candidate did it AGAIN!!! This whole voting for Hillary because she's a woman crap is making me ill. And as far as Biden goes, get real people. His plan to separate Iraq into 3 seperate states is ridiculous! So who's drawing the lines? The Iraqi politicians can't agree on anything but taking a vacation and you think they're just going to say OKAY! I know.....you'll say at least he put something forward. Yeah, but something that will cause our troops to have to stay another 10 years to try and enforce isn't that great. But wasn't it nice that he got it out just before the debate that following evening so he could tout his success. It was nonbinding so the Repubs. could vote for it knowing it meant nothing, but they got to score pts. with their own constituency who are probably pretty pissed at 'em. When the votes really count however, what do they normaly do? Biden doesn't stand a chance. OBAMA/Edwards is the best ticket.

Steven, KDH, N.C. (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 7:00 PM)

The Dems are complete Idiots,, Going to give each family $ 5000.00 for a new born!! Have you dems gone stark stupid??

Washington Paper Hangers are bathed in shame ,,a degusting imbalance of greed, self serving agenda, classic moron voting, will never lead as they have screwed the moral content of thisnation..

Look, Clinton is nothing,, a coat tail hanger, always riding the other guys mistake,, scandal and scandal she bathes in at every corner, misleading, liar, constant scorn for those who have courage, belittles our military commanders because they stand and want to fight for freedom. She has Never been in a leadership position which commands leadership,, Her past voting for a war and then flopping her vote was a stupid mistake which has caused thousands of lives to be lost.. This bitich has no remorse,, colder than a Iceberg..

You say vote for A Washington Paper Hanging S.O.B. Never again!!!!!!

straight up / az (Sent Friday, September 28, 2007 10:18 PM)

Follow the leader, not the money.

Scott (Sent Saturday, September 29, 2007 8:22 AM)

Calling Hillary Clinton a grownup is like calling Charles manson a Sunday School Teacher. You Libs really need to get with the program.

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Saturday, September 29, 2007 10:04 AM)

republicans hate America and middle class children.

Edwards could win if given a chance in the general. I just don't know if he can get past the primaries. Remember, we Democrats are famous for nominating flawed candidates and losing the general. Thus allowing repubs to lead America into these dark times with 4000 American boys and girls dead, 500,000 iraqs dead, and no healthcare for middle class kids.

leon houston (Sent Saturday, September 29, 2007 1:16 PM)

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