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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



First thoughts: The correct analogy

Posted: Tuesday, October 16, 2007 9:22 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under:

From Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Julia Steers
*** The correct analogy: Lots of folks keep bringing up Howard Dean when talking about Clinton's vulnerability vs. inevitability. The comparison, though, doesn't work since Dean never led the national polls by this much -- a new USA/Today Gallup poll has her at 50%, with Obama at 21% -- nor had a stranglehold on the establishment the way Clinton does. The better comparison (if there is one historically and there's a chance there isn't one) is George W. Bush in 1999 or Walter Mondale in 1983. Both Bush and Mondale had HUGE advantages in the polls and among the establishment class of both parties, and then an early state loss put them in a precarious position. The same could hold true if Clinton loses in Iowa. Of course, both Bush and Mondale survived, and maybe that's the firewall-like lead Clinton is building, an ability to survive a major stumble. Dean's lead was never as solid as Clinton’s is right now. If Dean should be compared to anyone, it would be Giuliani.

*** All aboard the Hillary Express: Indeed, Clinton inevitability train keeps on picking up steam. Recently, she has picked up endorsements from folks -- like Rep. John Lewis and New Hampshire’s Kathy Sullivan -- who appeared to be gauging how the field was playing out before picking a candidate. (By comparison, when was the last time Obama received a major national endorsement? Was it Federico Pena last month? Is the campaign prepping for more Clinton rollouts?) But what are the consequences of Hillary widening her lead, in both polls and perception? Does she retreat even more in a bubble and play the political version of prevent defense? Or does she let it loose, realizing she has the margin to make mistakes. One thing is for sure: As she becomes THE front-runner, a defeat in any of the early nominating states would be treated as an even bigger blow. Still, it’s a nice place to be compared with where she was six months ago.

*** It’s over, right? The biggest news from the FEC reports isn’t Clinton’s narrow cash-on-hand lead over Obama in primary money ($35 million to about $32 million) or the top four Democrats’ HUGE cash-on-hand lead over the top four GOPers ($104 million versus $36.5 million, per USA Today). Rather, it’s that McCain is in the red when you subtract his debts ($1.73 million) from his primary cash on hand ($1.67 million). Ouch. NBC political analyst Charlie Cook actually anticipated this in a National Journal column back in July. “For all intents and purposes, McCain's campaign is over,” Cook wrote back then. “The physicians have pulled up the sheet; the executors of the estate are taking over. Paying bills and winding down -- not strategizing, organizing, and getting a message out -- will be the order of the day.” For weeks, especially given some recent positive press, many have been cautioning that McCain’s campaign isn’t over. But with his negative cash on hand, is it time to change that opinion?

*** I’ll have the special: In a rare moment this year when the political press corps turns its attention away -- ever so slightly -- from the presidential trail, Democrat Niki Tsongas (widow of the late Paul Tsongas) and Republican Jim Ogonowski (a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel) face off today in a special congressional election to replace Rep. Marty Meehan (D), who left to become the chancellor of the University of Massachusetts-Lowell. This is Massachusetts, of course, and Tsongas is the clear favorite. But polls have shown that Ogonowski is keeping the race close, in large part because he’s portraying himself as the outsider running against the Democratic Congress. As we’ve asked before, will Ogonowski -- like Paul Hackett (D) did last cycle -- serve as a model for GOP candidates running for Congress next year? Polls open at 7:00 am ET and close at 8:00 pm ET.

*** GOP cattle call time: Since the campaign season began, it seems the Democrats haven’t met a Democratic interest group they won’t address. By comparison, their GOP counterparts haven’t participated in as many cattle calls. But that changes a bit this week: In addition to the Family Research Council’s Values Voter Summit later this week, several of the Republicans-- Brownback, Giuliani, McCain, Romney, and Thompson speak (in that order) -- at the Republican Jewish Coalition presidential forum in DC. Expect some tough talk by all on Iran.
 
*** On the trail: Elsewhere, Edwards is in Iowa; Huckabee, in New Hampshire, speaks at the Primary Insight Presidential Candidate Forum and the AARP Divided We Fail Forum; McCain appears on MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews; and Thompson -- in addition to his talk to the Republican Jewish Coalition -- speaks at the GOP Presidential Trust Dinner in DC.

Countdown to LA GOV election: 4 days
Countdown to Election Day 2007: 21 days
Countdown to LA GOV run-off (if necessary): 32 days
Countdown to Iowa: 79 days
Countdown to New Hampshire: 84 days
Countdown to Michigan: 91 days
Countdown to SC GOP primary: 95 days
Countdown to Florida: 105 days
Countdown to Tsunami Tuesday: 112 days
Countdown to Election Day 2008: 385 days
Countdown to Inauguration Day 2009: 462 days

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Comments

"Blackwater security guys to be able to go out on the streets of a New America. There's so much a poor man can take."

That's why it's important not to let Socialist get control of this country. You can't point to a Socialist country that has more opportunity than America. You can't even point to a city or state run by democrats here that isn't a basket case with people voting with their feet to get out of.
Just thought I would point that out since you seem to like to keep track of all the numbers.

Jessica, Wisconsin (Sent Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:22 AM)


Thanks.

Yes, it's a great day for Barack!


Van
HP...I assume that you agree with the illegal easedropping also...if so then you are really are not a democrat

GOP targeting Clinton on phone-call snooping



Republicans are focusing on an allegation in a recent book by two Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters, which suggests Clinton listened to a secretly recorded conversation between political opponents.

In their book about Clinton’s rise to power, Her Way, Don Van Natta Jr., an investigative reporter at The New York Times, and Jeff Gerth, who spent 30 years as an investigative reporter at the paper, wrote: “Hillary’s defense activities ranged from the inspirational to the microscopic to the down and dirty. She received memos about the status of various press inquiries; she vetted senior campaign aides; and she listened to a secretly recorded audiotape of a phone conversation of Clinton critics plotting their next attack.

“The tape contained discussions of another woman who might surface with allegations about an affair with Bill,” Gerth and Van Natta wrote in reference to Clinton’s husband, former President Bill Clinton. “Bill’s supporters monitored frequencies used by cell phones, and the tape was made during one of those monitoring sessions.”

It’s been clear that since 1986 it was illegal to intercept an individual cell phone call,” said Barry Steinhardt, the director of the technology and liberty program at the American Civil Liberties Union

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/gop-targeting-clinton-on-phone-call-snooping-2007-10-16.html
I agree -- If Gerth has the name of the Clinton aide from 1992, let's have it!

This is how SAD the *2008* GOP Party of "ideas" has become, these 16 years later:
~ "You never know when one of these stories gets legs."
~ The Hill reports on how "SOME" Republicans are seizing on a buried "ALLEGATION"...
~ "He has not revealed the aide’s identity"
~ "Clinton’s campaign has not disputed any facts reported in the final version of his book..."

Pssst!!!!
Clinton hasn't disputed any LIES in the book either. As a matter of fact, Clinton acts as if she considers Gerth a horsefly on the ass of yellow journalism.

NOTE: Gerht's Amazon sales rank is #...(wait for it, wait for it)... 43,016!!!
L.M.F.A.O.
This rumor will allegedly, according to some Republicans, just DESTROY the Clintons.
HP You got it all right. But they continue to blather on and on with stretching the truth and scare tactics against the Clintons. Hillary will make a fantastic president. Boohoo for the likes of Jerry and his gang.
The problem with Todd, et al, spending so much ink on prognasticating the horse race is their opinion begins to shape the outcome of the race. What is the point of predicting a winner this early when much of the polling is influenced by name recognition, not informed commitment to a candidate? First Read and the rest of the MSM are influencing the race by calling it this early for Clinton, instead of doing their job and giving us more information about all the candidates and their positions.
Why are we even bothering to have primaries if media pundits get to decide before a single vote is cast who the nominee will be?
It appears that all the allegations thrown at Mrs. Clinton by Jerry and his ilk can be directed at Bush and his administration with hardly a pause in between breaths.  The things you all are so afraid of are already true with the administration we have.  Take off the rose colored glasses and see the forest between the trees.

Pat Huntington, NY - you are spot on in your analysis of Jerry.  If he keeps posting, we might actually be able to turn him around.  LOL!!  Group therapy you know.....
van i used to think you were some what smart , but this math that you are tring to pull WOW ! I kinda hope that is not u because anyone with since can see that is nonsence . But how about thoses new numbers 108,000 obama 100,000 clinton ,and there is still some question off moving money around with that 22 mil. after all the facts come out u might want to rethink that post.
Tom:

We can't be a central America country.....

We don't grow bananas.....
John B:

This should be a lesson for ALL candidates.....
make sure the Skeletons in your closet stays in the closet....
In Hillary's case, maybe they are in that warehouse in Little Rock......

Why shouldn't she be judged based on her past....
all the others are.....

Are you saying John B that Hillary should get a pass because she is a WOMAN???????

Now you are trying to tell people that Women are not as strong as men.....

Like Dirty Harry once said "If she wants to play lumberjack, she better handle her end of the log!"
All this talk about how much money each candidate has raised.  So what are we saying, that the candidate who raises the most money should be President?  Is how much money they raise the only issue out there?

These people who are giving all this money, are they doing so out of the goodness of their heart, no strings attached?  Pardon me if I am a little skeptical.
after all the facts come out u might want to rethink that post.

ki houston (Sent Tuesday, October 16, 2007 12:20 PM)

The facts can be found here. They have come out.

http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/index.asp?cycle=2008

Clinton-$27,859,861

Obama-  $21,343,292


Clinton raised 1.305 times as much for the quarter as Obama, that's about one-third more.


Van


Okay,

I will vote for whoever puts this country back on the rails again.  I know we have Iraq...believe me I know because my own son gets shipped out next September; pending a miracle.  But we also have domestic issues and chief among them is OIL, and Healthcare.  These two issues are causing a rise in spending for the average consumer and it is hurting us deeply.  Everything is going up in price.  Please -- Please America...vote the real issues this time, both foreign and domestic.  As a tag line on a radio station says...THINK FOR YOURSELF.  
Pat:  Hillary did some good things for NY (as every Senator tries to do for his/her state).  However she voted to authorize the use of force in Iraq and then against the Levin amendment for Congressional oversight.  She voted for the Lieberman/Kyl Resolution to condemn the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, a terrorist organization (defacto grounds for declaration of war by this administration).

Unfortunately, these votes, thes examples of bad judgment, among other things, more than negate any good she may have done for the state of NY.  She is certainly not presidential timber.
Obama '08  
Grace NY You know what they sat about people who assume. You make an ASS of U not ME! lol well not exactly.
So we are talking dirt from the repukes are we and you are spewing it for them?  Well sister sludge have a great time with it and do not forget to vote. I ASSUME a repuke gets your vote!
jerry, at what point in my post did it say ANYTHING about Hillary's gender?  What I did say is that your heroes have been working 24/7 for DECADES to destroy the Clintons and the only thing that's actually been proven was an affair with an intern.  Admit it, this isn't about any real or even imagined offenses, it's simply about trying to destroy someone you hate.
"Blackwater security guys to be able to go out on the streets of a New America. There's so much a poor man can take."

That's why it's important not to let Socialist get control of this country. You can't point to a Socialist country that has more opportunity than America. You can't even point to a city or state run by democrats here that isn't a basket case with people voting with their feet to get out of.
Dave, Tn (Sent Tuesday, October 16, 2007 12:00 PM)

Um, Dave?  The Blackwater mercenary army is the work of authoritarians within the GOP.  So lawless enforcers on American streets are OK as long as they're conservative?  Open your eyes and see the developing fascism in front of you.
"Blackwater security guys to be able to go out on the streets of a New America. There's so much a poor man can take."
That's not an image of socialism, that's an image of fascism.
Bob former NYer, Charlotte,NC asks what has Hillary done for NY lately?

Secured billions of dollars from the federal gov't to fund WTC redevelopment, aid to first responders and businesses harmed by the attack [she also went to ground zero 9-12].


A trained seal could have accomplished more.  Like the money wasn't going to flow into NY anyway.

You lefties are really stretching to find something, anything, of significance that Hillary has done.   The woman is an absolute fake and a fraud.
Pat in Huntington NY LOL;

I did some checking on your list of items that Hillary Clinton supposedly did......

The only one I can find is the east side access tunnel.

Everything else came up nothing......

Hmmmmmm.
 After careful consideration,I have decided from reading jerry,corpus remarks lately that he must be playing Devil's advocate.If not he is definitly a full fledged moron.I tend to believe the former.               Jerry,although you may enjoy the attention,please do not fall to the level of smear tactics.Politicians(all of them)say anything to be elected.We must work for a living,pay taxes and pay our own health bills.When an elected official refuses to accept the unbelievable health insurance and privleges given to our beauracRATS and works for minimum wage,only then will the Great American Dream become reality.
Boring.  Everyone take your meds
Dot, be skeptical, be VERY skeptical.
A reason that the Mondale 84 & Bush 00 don't work so well with Clinton 08 is that both of the former establishment front runners had paths to the nominations founded on big wins in the Iowa caucuses.  Although tough reformer challengers emerged for both in NH, they already had an early state win.  Clinton is obviously at risk of finishing second or even third in Iowa, which -- combined with Obama wins in NH and SC -- would likely cripple her campaign.  She has to win somewhere in the early states to go into Feb. 5th with a chance.  

Maybe a successful analogy for her would be Bush 88, who did manage to finish 3rd in Iowa but rebounded by winning NH after going brutally negative on Bob Dole.  Or, if Edwards wins Iowa, an analogy could be Dukakis 88, who finished third in Iowa but then was able to rip up the broke Gephardt in the races that followed.
So Hillary is the only senator from New York or does Mr. Schumer stick his neck out with trial balloons and Hillary jumps on board when she sees its going to fly.  People of NY wake up your falling under the Clinton spell again.  I dislike George, but Hillary (If I can avoid being associated with it until its a winner) aint the answer.  I'd prefer someone who sticks to their guns until tangible evidence dictates otherwise, rather than someone who rides coat tails.  If heaven for bid she becomes President (I always did like the Canadian national anthemn) who will she hide behind.  I don't need to go to Hillary's website to view her version of the truth.
Jerry is Bee and Lyn and Sierra. His personalities are growing by the day.
Historically, major polls have been wrong at least 77% of the time since 1960 (according to which statistical study you accept) in presidential primary elections (counting cumulatively).

Historically, one bad (blown) primary and the polls change overnight.  (in sports, see "invincible" USC)

Historically, money raised before actual voting don't mean squat.  Money doesn't follow polls after the voting starts, it follows winners.

That was then.  This is now.  In spite of, because of, without reference to, whatever, bet the mortgage on Hillary.

Easy money.

Like Patton in North Africa...there ain't no stopping her now.

We may arguing how or why, but she will be taking the oath in January 2009.

It could be worse.  

It already is.

Get "real" folks Bush is leading us on the path to distruction. Hope everyone has enough money to pay for the $5-$6-$7-$8.00 a gallon for gas. Hope you don't plan on retiring any time soon, hope you don't need health care, hope you keep your job on during the recession or "depression" to come,hope you don't need to sell or buy a home, hope you don't have a loved one fighting this rediculious cival war in Iraq,hope you don't mind the goverment listing in on your private conversations, hope you don't mind the Justice Department in a mess,hope you don't mind Senator Craig to continue to represent you, hope you don't mind past Attorney Gerneral Gonzales hiring a attorney to defend himself after he resigned in discrace,hope you don't mind paying the "trillion" +++ debt of the Iraq war ect. ect.. Now if your a Republican I allready know you don't mind. Because you are out of your minds, following the President who "sucks".
Jerry is now also Grace! Jerry is very busy lately.
bb...sorry to disappoint you but unlike Hillary'I' know the meaning of the word. I'm neither Jerry or Bee or Sierra
Bob:

Chuck Schumer has been awfully quiet in this election.

You would think that he would be HILLRASIN for Hillary.

Maybe he is a true New Yorker and sees what Hillary really is......a carpetbagger
Ladies, ladies, ladies: cease with this endless cacophony of repeating or refuting meaningless poll-generated drivel.

Vote, and let Americans speak from the ballot box.

Dewey, McClelland, Kerry, Carter, Bryan: any of these names ring a historical bell?

Oh boy...all I did was cite from my own personal observations here in NY what Hillary has done for us lately...in response to a question from another comment.  Jerry and Bob former ny'er, you aren't here, you can't see what she's done...and yes, she wasn't alone...she's a senator, not a governor, and can only do so much as in that position.  I know for god-given fact, Jerry, she's done all that I said in my comment...and no, a trained seal cant' do what she did...seals are not eligible to run for public office...not yet, but that can change with advances in stem cell research, which she supports!
Oh and Jerry...how can you say you didn't find anything about what Hillary did to get money for NYC for post 9-11 recovery and other related 9-11 aid?  That just proves to me you comment without any basis in fact.  It was all over the frigg'n news how she [and Schumer] screamed at Bush to get the billions of dollars he supposedly pledged right after 9-11 when they asked for it in the first place. It was also all over the news how she's been screaming at the EPA, Christi Todd Whitman in particular [that piece of work] with regard to air quality in ground zero in her successful effort to get aid for first responders still getting sick and dying today.  But I guess you wouldn't know that because you watch only Fox News and Sunday morning TV Evangelical programs oh, and the 300 Club with Pat Robertson.
Obama supporters...(and of course anyone else-you too Van)  if you havn't gone to the website today
www.barackobama.com  the ticker is rolling.  Since 9am almost $400k has come in, we'll have the gap closed in no time.

All he has to do is give a "shout out"
The middle class and the poor will finally be getting the help they need. My family and I were doing way, way better during the Clinton years. Yes! I do want some of that Clinton magic back ....God, I can't wait!
Have you heard about the new Democratic bakery chain?  It's hottest item is the "Hillaroll".

Also, if you can't afford to bid on the original Harry Reid letter to Rush Limbaugh, personally autographed by Harry and 41 prominent Dem politicians (it's over $50 grand now) you can download a free PDF on his website!

Go Hillary!

Come to think of it, we are already arguing about how or why HC rules and not one vote has been cast.  

This turkey has been in the oven for 8 years. It's time.

If you can't stand the heat...


(Me? I'm vegan)



Aren't we still in the pre-primary season?

Why would anyone send a candidate money already?
Sorry Lyn, but you do sound like him with your obsessive Hillary hating. And what is your party affiliation? Just wondering.You know the meaning of what word?
You guys didn't post my earlier of 2 comments; my usual anti-Hillary rant probably got lost in the flood of similar comments.

In summary I said that we would be better served by paying attention to the issues than trying to handicap the horserace.  A good discussion of the issues is the best way to make the selection process most genuine.  The prognosticators risk being used as a campaign tactic and can be used influence the race as opposed to just commenting on it.

BTW, the internet and it's amplified potential for fund raising and communication makes the comparison to the Dean campaign only relevent in that the internet had not yet matured enough to produce the necessary groundswell to put him over the top in '04 (among other factors).  The internet has come a long way in 4 years and now may be strong enough to counter Hillary's corporate donors.  The comparisons to Mondale in '84 and GWB in '99 are less valid because of the different technology of that time.

It's up to us who post on these sites to prevent you, the employees of the corporate media from attaching too much significance to these aggregate polls.  Right now, although all polls are fairly insignificant in their predictive capability, if they must be looked at, it should be in a seqential time frame as one significantly affects the next one on the calendar.  So, for what it's worth, only the Iowa poll is of significance on this, the 16th day of October.

Anyway, let's keep it real and make this a valuable site by discussing the issues (as boring as that may be) since the issues are the thing that will affect our lives.  The horserace will work itself out as the issues are thoroughly discussed.
Obama '08
Bee is no Jerry nor Billary CLinton. My name is Bee, which stand for Anti-Establishment.

Clinton, Van and Howard Wofson cannot be trusted with our beloved country.
Did you hear about the latest health condition where a little extra around the middle can increase the chances of diabetes?

It's called the "Hillaroll"!

Go Hillary!
Did you know it's not "rockabilly" anymore?

It's Hillaroll!

Go Hillary!
    there are many ways of going forward, but only one way of standing still
John B. This ''Blackwater As Conservative Fascism''is ridiculous. You forget that private mercenaries [like extraordinary rendition],were also a portion of the 1990s,and no-one was whining about incipient ''fascism''then. DYNCORP,Americas largest mercenary organization before BLACKWATER,was involved in killings in Kosovo,Haiti,and Somalia.[in the Balkans,they also ran an illegal sex slavery ring].Yet because it was Clinton at the helm,liberals kept their usually big mouths shut.

Also see:

US News and World Report Jan.20,1998:''Have Gun,Will Prop Up Regime''.

Foreign Policy Magazine,Fall,1998:''Outsourcing War''Schear,David.

TIME Magazine May 25,1998:''Did The US Put It's Foot Down,Only To Turn Away?"
I don't have Channel one in NYC Pat......

I do watch Fox and ABC and NBC and CBS.......

been kinda quiet on her things she does for the state of New York......

You would think she would tout her big victories working hard for the people of New York.......

Wonder if her supposed victories just aren't that much to crow about??????

Everybody equates Rudy as the Man who saved New York City on 9-11......

What do they equate Hillary with?.......

The woman who listens in on illegal wiretaps?
gets money from criminals
makes money from cattle futures?
got horsewhipped during the last health care debate?

She needs to prove what she did to get national coverage......

All the media thinks of her is that she is a woman...
All he has to do is give a "shout out"

Lyn, MD (Sent Tuesday, October 16, 2007 2:02 PM)

Thank goodness Clinton has ceased raising funds in order to let Obama, "catch up".


Always look for the silver lining...

Van
My gosh, what is Obama gonna do with all that money after Hillary wins. Does he have to give it back?


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