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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Posted: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 1:47 PM by Domenico Montanaro

From NBC/NJ’s Matthew E. Berger
On its face, the numbers are startling. According to the latest Giuliani campaign radio ad, the survival rate for prostate cancer is almost twice as high in the United States as it is in Great Britain. But cancer experts suggest the numbers used by the Giuliani campaign are out of date and misleading.
 
“My chance of surviving prostate cancer, and thank God I was cured of it, in the United States, 82 percent,” Giuliani says in the ad, now running in New Hampshire. “My chances of surviving prostate cancer in England, only 44 percent under socialized medicine.”
 
The Giuliani campaign cites City Journal, a conservative quarterly magazine, as its source. The journal’s Web site describes it as “the nation’s premier urban-policy magazine” and says it served as an “idea factory” during Giuliani’s tenure as New York City mayor. It’s an arm of the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank.
 
The fact came from an article this summer entitled, “The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care.” It says that the prostate cancer survival rate is 81.2 percent in the United States, 61.7 percent in France and 44.3 percent in England. But author David Gratzer doesn’t provide a source for those numbers. His office said they got the numbers from a 2000 Commonwealth Fund report.
 
The British government’s National Statistics Web site lists prostate cancer survival from 1999 to 2004 at 74.4 percent. The American Cancer Society says 99.9 percent of Americans survive prostate cancer.
 
Cancer experts say survival rates may also not be the best indicator because there is more prostate screening in the United States than the United Kingdom. Survival rates show the percentage of people who are living five years after diagnosis, whereas mortality rates show the number of people who actually die from the disease.
 
Age-standardized prostate cancer mortality rates are 15.4 per 100,000 people in the United Kingdom and 12.0 per 100,000 in the United States, according to the American Cancer Society.

“The former New York City mayor is an avid reader of City Journal and found the passage in the article himself,” says Giuliani campaign spokeswoman Maria Comella. “He cited the statistics at a campaign stop, and the campaign used a recording from that appearance in the radio advertisement.

“The citation is an article in a highly respected intellectual journal written by an expert at a highly respected think tank which the mayor read because he is an intellectually engaged human being.”

*** UPDATE*** Dr. Patrick Walsh, a prostate cancer expert from Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, said there is no doubt that screening and treatment for prostate cancer in the United States is better than in England, but said the numbers don’t tell the whole story.

"I don’t know where Giuliani got those numbers,” said Walsh, a university distinguished service professor of urology. “You can’t exactly compare death rates” because many prostate cancer patients technically die of pneumonia.

Walsh said that when he travels to England, he sees patients frustrated with the level of national care.

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Comments

So the whole purpose of this story is to prove you're only 25% more likely to die in Britain instead of 50%; and that anything other than routine care in Britian sucks.  That said I believe the original jest of the argument is correct.  So why didn't First Read just say that rather than imply the overall argument was false.  Hummm ... I guess that wasn't in the Hillary approved fax.
Adam Columbus OH - YOU should run for president!
Rudy, what's your chance at survival if you have NO insurance? I'll tell you, it's ZERO percent. I have terminal cancer myself. Even WITH insurance I have trouble getting treatment under Blue Cross HMO.
Survival isn't an option at all for 47 million uninsured Americans. Here are the grim facts you rich people don't get. You get sick, sick enough and you can't work, then you lose your insurance, you get NO MEDICAL TREATMENT. It's that simple.
Rudy is now an intellectual thinker but reading only one side of the argument is not very intellectual at all. You must look at both sides and then come up with your own ideas. That is what college teaches most people. Rudy was not looking for facts, he was looking for arguments, one is not the other. Like I said he will implode as the days go on. At least Romney is too smart to use suspect information but would you buy a used car from him? Too slick for me. It is too bad he is a morman that will defeat him in the long run. Fred is Fred and will pretend to be a good ole boy, tired of that already. Huckabee will rise in peoples eyes as these others self destruct. The dems have warts also but they are not tied to the Bushes White House no matter what people suggest. This is really becoming a most interesting election. I can't wait to see who is still running when Pennsylvania gets to vote.
I'm interested in knowing how someone could believe anything this guy says?  He can't remember what values he had yesterday, let alone pre and post 9/11. Just save yourself the embarassment and drop out of the race now Rudy.      
Actually, if you have no insurance, the taxpayers will cover you, it's a strawman.

Y'all need to get better talking points.  
This is a prime example of someone (Rudy) misusing data to prove a point that has nothing to do with the issue. Having had prostate cancer and doing some basic research on the subject, one of the first things you learn is that Europeans generally have not followed the U.S. lead in getting PSA blood test screenings. They generally don't want to know, apparently because if you do know then you are faced with choosing alternatives such as radical prostate surgery or radiation, both of which are likely to result in male impotence. The death rates are higher because of the cultural differences in males in the two continents - and the apparently greater willingness by U.S. males to sacrifice one's sex life for one's life. It has nothing to do with nationalized health plans.
Meanwhile the wait time to see a doctor in the UK is so bad that they have websites to show how long the wait is....GP ? 17 weeks.

CURRENT WAITING TIMES IN ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND
8 months for cataract surgery
11 months for a hip replacement
12 months for a knee replacement
5 months to repair a slipped disc
5 months for a hernia repair
Gee Bruce, let me know where the taxpayers will cover those without insurance. Isn't this what the Bush Republicans just defeated for the kids? Isn't that what you are all afraid of with Universal Health care? That all Americans might actually GET health care? Then you say the taxpayers will cover it all? Ah...when did that law pass? Some people confuse being able to go to the emergency room with real health care. You have something like cancer, they don't treat that week to week in the emergency room. Instead you are denied treatment until it's so bad you end up in the emergency room. Then they shoot you up and kick you to the curb. If you don't work, you don't get insurance, no insurance = no treatment. No treatment...you die in America.
Hillary in fact,did screw up in the numbers department,and as it happened,it was cancer that was the subject. Appearing before the Lance Armstrong Forum, in late August,making her arguments about healthcare reform,she stated that ''500,000''women a year worldwide die of cervical cancer. The actual number is half this. This does not make her a ''liar'' or ''ignorant''.It makes her misinformed.

www.factcheck.org
Gee Bruce, how long do you wait in the Unites States when you have NO insurance? I spent the summer in Canada, they are very happy with their health care and there isn't any kicking to the curb there like we do in America. I have insurance, I waited FOUR MONTHS for an oncologist to see me after I was diagnosed with TERMINAL CANCER. You know why? Because Blue Cross tried to dump me after I had paid for them for years. Instead of me dealing with just being told I was going to die, I got to fight with Blue Cross for FOUR MONTHS, in pain, in fear and WITHOUT health care in America. That's WITH insurance!
Overall we're still the 37th best health care system and still pay  one third more than the next most expensive system.  And Giuliani exaggerating and misleading to make his point?  Business as usual for Rude E.


Here's another example of a liberal giving a conservative a hard time about where he gets his numbers (Rudy in this case), and then bringing up the bogus "we're 37th" argument.  That was a WTO study that is as politically slanted as any other "study" that is out there.  Face facts, Americans have the best health care, research, and access then anyone in the world.  And Hillary et. al. want to destroy it.
Way to distort, MSNBC! Could your political leanings be more obvious? The Giuliani campaign cited a reputable journal who in turn cited research reports from the time when Rudy had cancer. What more do you want? The prostate cancer causes a weakened body which leads to death by pneumonia. Those should count too because the cancer causes the precursor to the death. I'm not a medical doctor and it's pretty obvious to me, Nice try.
We have "socialized medicine" in Ireland. I see my GP on the same day that I make a phone call for an appointment. I rang on a Friday, saw my GP was referred to a specialist and by Monday evening had been seen by an orthopaedic consultant. I had a minor soft tissue injury. Believe whatever you like but until you've actually tried the health care systems in other countries you'll never really know. I'd rather know that no matter what happens (for richer, poorer, better or worse) my health will always be taken care of. Now thats' peace of mind. A family member became seriously ill in Canada. The health care system there is amazing. Call it what you like. It's still fairer for all to be entitled to treatment when sick.
"Meanwhile the wait time to see a doctor in the UK is so bad that they have websites to show how long the wait is....GP ? 17 weeks."

I just realized my doctor is booked for about two and a half months, a wait time of about 10 weeks. Not as bad, but it's not as though we're comparing 17 weeks to 24 hours or something.
What is the difference between 'socialized medicine' and the health care that our elected politicians receive?
Beth, the bushies don't care about you or anyone else...anyone who thinks the current system of distributing healthcare is great is getting subsidized insurance from their employer or the government and think that every one should "pay" for their healthcare just like they do...
Lee, the facts on cervical cancer are about 500,000 come down with cervical cancer and your number is indeed those who actually die from it. Either way ,it's a large number and point made by Hillary.
Len, nobody wants to destroy our health care in America. The point is simply this, if you don't have insurance you don't get to receive health care. Having worked for the insurance company for the past 7 years, I can tell you from the inside....they are there for profits not CARE and they make a LOT of profit. Once you get sick, it's a game to deny the treatment because of money. This happens even to those WITH insurance, see my other posts about my own nightmare with Blue Cross. Until you go through this nightmare of insurance you don't understand that what you are trusting is going to be ok, isn't. When your turn comes, the light comes on. Nobody with this knowledge wants anything more than to stop insurance companies from dumping those who get sick and that health care be available to all Americans. The insurance companies pay a lot of money to keep YOU in the dark. I found out the hard way, I hope what happened to me does not happen to you or anyone else who simply doesn't know the real truth of insurance denials once you get sick.
I had a great job excellent benefits. Didn't do me any good when I got too sick to work. Another thing most people don't know is that when you apply for ssdi if you can't see a doctor regularly for the 5 or so years it takes to get approved you aren't going to get approved. Where is this money supposed to come from when you are out of work and your insurance is gone. I take great comfort in knowing that some of you 'silver spoons' are going to experience this very thing someday. Then we'll see what tune you are singing.
IRONY ALERT: Giuliani HIMSELF has admitted to being more SOCIALIST than any Democrat.

EX: Rudy praises the communistic model for the NYPD, the FDNY, and the US Military. (I don't. Since the NYPD admits, say, that they fail to solve 80% of reported crime, I should be able to fire the police commissioner and his useless team.)

EX: Rudy has stated boldly that he loves our communistic design of govt here in the USA. EX: he thinks that we should continue this badly planned "temporary dictatorship" where we elect someone to ignore our wishes for four to 8 years, and to waste our taxdollars however they feel like.

It's akin to everyone in your town "voting" for ONE pizza place to exist and that you must eat at only that ONE pizza place for the next four years.

This is called "totalitarianism", and it is the foundation of our crappy system.

But don't take my word for it: ask Rudy if he plans more "free market" ideals for the White House. B/c even most private phone plans don't force you into a FOUR year contract!

Republicans are even more hypocritical than Democrats.

But we must reject BOTH parties.

(I always vote 3rd party and always will.)
Our health care system is a disaster, and I gladly welcome any dumb Republicans (same people who say they believe in a virgin birth! sheesh!) to come with me to the hospital next week!

Do REpublicans ever not lie?

Conservatives also insisted the earth was flat and the center of the universe.
Let's take the "real" numbers, Britian 74.4 percent survival, America 99.9 percent survival. Yep, socialized medicine is better,,,,,if you want a 25% increase chance of death.

Toby, clearly you have no concept of "mortality and survivability" rates.  But, I would expect nothing less from somone who enjoys the state of the current system.  I find it ironic that when the numbers are against your party, the old addage "anyone can make-up statistics" is thrown around alot.  But when the your exaulted party uses them it's, "look at the numbers" or "these statistics don't lie".  

First, grab a dictonary and expose yourself to some scientific terms...hope that doesn't offend or scare the party of God.

Secondly, if you or your party have a better idea, put up for all Americans to read...I SAID READ, not listen to.  This goes for both parties, fix the current system, I don't think so, we better work to update the system first and then we might possibly move on.
Do you know I had to look and look to find out that the numbers were misleading.They did not sound right to me .Where was this on the major news outlets.You do not think it is a big deal.We have a major crisis in health care in this country.To let Giuliani go out and make ,giving him the best of it,misleading statememts does not help the debate.The fourth estate can do better.
It seems many liberals are simply afraid of Rudy's electability which is indicative of these assine attacks. Give the guy some credit, he battled and defeated cancer.  There is nothing this man cannot handle.  He survived the mafia putting an $800,000 bounty on his head because he put many of them in jail.   The man is fearless!  
Len, if you think we have the best health care in the world why do we rank in the bottom half of all industrialized countries in almost every objective measure from infant mortality to average life expectancy?  THAT is what determined the 37th best health care statistic.  If you wish to consider infant mortality to be a political issue by all means do so.  You're on the losing side of that one.
BOBF, You're not real bright, are you? The survival rate had nothing to do with who has insurance even though everyone in the UK has health care which makes it even worse for them because they do all have it. The point this whole blog makes is that the US quality of health surpasses the UK in every scenerio presented. Even the homeless on our streets get healthcare and live beyond the ones under UK's socialized medicine.
Toby we're 38th in life expectancy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy and nearly all of the countries where people live longer have national health plans.  Next lie, please.
If someone doesn't have access to a doctor, then how would that person be diagnosised with prostate cancer?
In England, where far more people have access to a doctor, more people are diagnosised, therefore they have a higher rate of mortality due to the disease, where in America, if it isn't diagnosised, then it won't be counted, and America will win the flawed statistic war.

Cancer happens to all people, not exclusively to those with health insurance.
Your 99.9% survival rate in the US is incorrect. Specifically, the five year survival rate for LOCALISED prostate cancer is 99%. The survival rate thereafter (10 and 15 years are the standard benchmarks) is in the 85 percent range. Survival rates depend on: (1) early detection followed by prompt treatment, (2) type of treatment (prostate removal has the highest survival rate, according to Johns Hopkins, the US's leading urology department), and (3) age of patient at detection, since older men typically die of something else before they die of PC, whereas for younger men diagnosed with PC the likelihood of their dying from PC is greater than for older men, since they are less likely to die of old age before PC becomes life threatening. All this said, does anyone know when Johns Hopkins is going to complete their trial of EPCA-2 -- it could level the playing field between the US and UK on providing easy and definitive detection of PC compared with the less reliable PSA detection method?
Gary Shear - Thank 9/11 you for that very9/11 insitefu9/11l comment.  9/11 9/11 9/11!
WHAT IS THE USA SURVIVAL RATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE DENIED HEALTHCARE DUE TO BEING TOO POOR TO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE?

82%? I think not...

So do the USA figures include the whole population?

The UK's healthcare system is open to absolutely everyone so our figures include EVERYONE in the UK.

NOT JUST THOSE THAT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

Get it?
The bottom line is that the British live longer than we do in America. And the average Briton was found to be in much better health than the best insured Americans. Sad... And British children are not dieing, and going extinct. Like all of the American children are. What do you have to say to that. Wise Guys.

For the first time in the history of America. The life expectancy of today's children is less than that of their parents. This is catastrophic. And our infant mortality is equal to that of a third world country. Current U.S. adult life expectancy is down from #1 to #42. And dropping fast. These facts are what is known as EXTINCTION! indicators. These are the early signs of the final phase of the EXTINCTION of the American people.

You have to take the profit motive out of health care delivery. The profit motive does not work with health care. Or any other essential public service like police, and fire. The sooner everyone faces this truth. The sooner you will be able to adopt a real solution to the problem. The days of paying for health care out of pocket are at an end. Just like the mob days of paying for protection out of pocket came to an end.

HR 676 is the way to go. Single payer Universal National Health Care For All. Medicare for all. Accept no substitutes. The sooner you face this. The sooner you begin to heal the Cancer of private for profit medicine that is destroying this entire society. Other developed countries realized this years ago. It's a no-brainer now. See sickocure.org

Money, greed, and the profit motive has just decimated health care in America. And killed, and injured millions needlessly. Just for profit. But that is what large amounts of money, greed, and a lust for power always does. No one is immune from this corrupting power. The smart ones know this. And avoid letting them-self be put in compromising positions. But that is easier said. Than done. And very few succeed.

Most in the US go into medicine primarily to become wealthy. That is who the medical schools mostly choose. Most of the medical schools faculty are in bed with the drug companies, and others. And like the story of Dr. Faustus. They end up selling their soles. One compromise at a time. Until Lucifer owns them.

In medicine. Compromised care means. Injury, disability, and death. It's sad really. But HR 676 can fix this disgrace. Like it has in other developed countries. The only question is. How many more millions will be hurt, injured, and killed. And how many more of your children will die before their time. Before we fix this disgrace of private for profit health care in America.

I realize there will be a few people that have what they believe is good health care coverage. Who will want to opt out of a single payer system like HR 676. But let me remind you we rank # 37 in quality of health care for all. Down from #1. Never the less. A few opting out is not a problem. As long as all other Americans are automatically covered at birth through life. Unless they choose to opt out of HR 676. The government takes out 1.4% from your paycheck now for Medicare. All they have to do is substitute for HR 676 what they now take out of your paychecks for private health insurance. Remember, we already spend more on health care than any other country in the world. Right Now. We are being ripped off. And raped.

The SCHIP program is a desperately needed program for Americas children. But with the impending EXTINCTION of Americas children. And their current catastrophic health care condition. SCHIP needs to be extended to cover all of Americas children, immediately. Parents should have no hesitations, or financial worries about seeking medical care for their children. Whenever they have any concerns about their children's health. Especially in the richest country in the world. I would submit that any President, or politician that fails to do this for the children. Betrays their most solemn oath to protect the American people. Especially when you consider that all other developed countries have done this. And that we are the richest country in the world.

So get on it America. Get it done. You have been doing great over the past several months. Keep it up. And step it up. You have to force it, and take it. It's the right fight, and the right thing to do. Now is the time... Take no prisoners.
WHAT IS THE USA SURVIVAL RATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE DENIED HEALTHCARE DUE TO BEING TOO POOR TO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE?

82%? I think not...

So do the USA figures include the whole population?

The UK's healthcare system is open to absolutely everyone so our figures include EVERYONE in the UK.

NOT JUST THOSE THAT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

Get it?
WHAT IS THE USA SURVIVAL RATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE DENIED HEALTHCARE DUE TO BEING TOO POOR TO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE?

82%? I think not...

So do the USA figures include the whole population?

The UK's healthcare system is open to absolutely everyone so our figures include EVERYONE in the UK.

NOT JUST THOSE THAT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

Get it?


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