ABOUT FIRST READ

First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC Political Researcher



Iraq/Iran: Zero for 40. Ouch.

Posted: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:23 AM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under:

The Politico's VandeHei and Harris have a pretty interesting statistic: "As the congressional session lurches toward a close, Democrats are confronting some demoralizing arithmetic on Iraq. The numbers tell a story of political and substantive paralysis more starkly than most members are willing to acknowledge publicly, or perhaps even to themselves. Since taking the majority, they have forced 40 votes on bills limiting President Bush’s war policy. Not a single one has passed both chambers, even though both are run by Democrats."

*** UPDATE *** Politico has corrected its story. In an update to the article, Politico writes, "The original version of this story inaccurately stated that none of the 40 Democratic efforts to limit the Iraq war cleared Congress. None were signed into law, but one bill did make it to President Bush for his veto."

So Dems are actually one-for-40. 

The pro-White House group Freedom’s Watch announced that it’s running print ads today in seven newspapers across the country targeting potentially vulnerable freshmen congressional Democrats. The ads urge Speaker Pelosi and the Democratic Congress to fund the troops, and they feature an Iraq vet -- Andrew Robinson -- who sits in a wheelchair and says: “It is becoming more apparent every day that we are making real and significant progress in Iraq... Yet sadly, some in Congress seem more interested in playing politics than achieving victory… An American pullout would create instability in Iraq and allow it to become a breeding ground for terrorists. I made a great sacrifice to help defeat terrorism in Iraq…and I would do it again. It is time for Congress to show resolve, to put aside politics and to unite behind victory.

The Washington Post writes, “The economic costs to the United States of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan so far total approximately $1.5 trillion, according to a new study by congressional Democrats that estimates the conflicts' ‘hidden costs’-- including higher oil prices, the expense of treating wounded veterans and interest payments on the money borrowed to pay for the wars. That amount is nearly double the $804 billion the White House has spent or requested to wage these wars through 2008, according to the Democratic staff of Congress's Joint Economic Committee. Its report, titled ‘The Hidden Costs of the Iraq War,’ estimates that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have thus far cost the average U.S. family of four more than $20,000.”

More: “War funding experts said that the committee's Democrats raise viable arguments but that some of the numbers should be met with skepticism. For example, it is difficult to calculate the precise impact of the Iraq war on global oil prices, and it is speculative to estimate how much the war will cost over time, as situations change daily on the battlefield.”

The United Nations Foundation and its sister organization, the Better World Campaign, today release the findings of a research project (conducted by Democratic pollster Geoff Garin and GOP pollster Bill McInturff), which shows -- that 78% of all voters and 80% of swing voters think the US is less respected by other countries than it has been in the past; that 73% of voters are more likely to vote for a presidential candidate who understands that solutions to world problems require international cooperation; and that 70% of voters are more likely to vote for a presidential candidate who agrees that it is important for the US to work constructively with other countries to stop growing anti-American feelings.

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Comments

A real lack of leadership from Reid and Pelosi. They will pay at the polls in a year. If they can't get the war issue right, who is going to trust them with anything else?
Moderates are needed to lead the house and the senate, not dyed in the wool liberals like Nancy and Harry. These two are too tied into the far left wing nut jobs,  because of that, they cannot be leaders. The Democrats had a real opportunity to change things in the last year. They have blown it big time.
I can imagine the democrats are cursing and shaking because of the success the surge is showing.  Considering they never gave the military a chance in the beginning, specifically Hillary Clinton, The liberals must be quaking in their shoes at all the violence going down in Iraq.  If there is one thing Liberals cannot stand is success in the military.
Pentagon survey of reservists in 05-06 found 44%
were dissatisfied with how Labor dept. handled complaints of discrimination based on military status.  29% said they had difficulty getting info they needed from govt. agancys charged with protecting their rights.  So bush/cheney send  Americans to fight and die and suffer for their wacko religious oil war but wont protect their jobs when troops survive and come home, I am sure jerri is proud of bush/cheney.
Saying the bills haven't passed either chamber while saying Democrats run both chambers is misleading to the public.  It takes sixty votes in the Senate to move forwards unobstructed, and the only people responsible for falling short of that vote total on each of those bills are Republicans, not Democrats.
Too bad robinson has been conned by the chickenhawks into believing the tripe he is repeating...70% of us think this war is a mistake and being run by a bunch of incompetent boobs...here's something else for robinson to ponder...none of those sponsoring his baloney has ever served a day in their lives...not one...they were too busy getting deferrments or joining the texas national guard to serve when their nation needed them...chickenhawk party
I keep hoping the republicans see the light and that by stubbornly standing by the worst president ever is hurting them and their party.
They need to end this white elephant of a war.  It was wrong from the beginning and the neocons should be banned from any involvement with anything to do with government.
I personally feel they, along with bush and Cheney need to be sent to a permanent vacation to the Gitmo hotel.
And it not just the democrats in Congress that are losers, look at Hollywood and their anti-America, Military trashing, movies on IRAQ, people are NOT paying to see hollywood  trash.  Redford, crusie and streep are losers. Even the Media is avoiding Iraq.... adn if you think all these Dem seats are  safe, you better watch out, Hillary can now claim she was  "right" on Iraq. The "tide" is turning against Repubs and Dems
Is there a link between private security being watched closely and a decline in violence in iraq, seems when blackwater was brought under control violence dropped immediately, just a thought.
Who in the heck cares what others think of us?....

Maybe we should just stop all foreign aid to all these countries.  I'll bet they will be feeling love to us a lot more if we show them that we don't care about them anymore.  Israel and Iraq should continue to get our Aid, everyone else can go jump in the lake for all I care.  If we cut the foreign aid money, I'll bet we can save a huge chunk of money for our congress to waste on.
Who gives a sh%$ about what other countries think about us. They hated us before Iraq and if you dont believe that then your just naive. The rest of the world needs the U.S. more than the U.S. needs them.

Rick, WS: YOU dont know who in that group served. Have you served? That is what I thought. BTW: Everyone was attempting to get deferred during Vietnam. Some did, some didnt. I happen to know SSG Robinson, he was not conned as you say. This man is a decorated veteran not some Playstation or Blogger warrior back here in the states complaining about everything his country does.
We do need different political leaders--I quite frankly am tired of all the labels, moderate, conservative and liberal.  To my mind, we need lawmakers who are willing to put their big fat
egos(sp?) on the side along with their strong political leanings, who are willing to accept that they alone do not have all the right answers to all our country's problems, who are willing to listen to other points of view, and then who are willing to "give a little" so that some progress for the good of our country can be made.

I am sure there were disagreements and arguing when our forefathers were drafting our Constitution; yet they were able to craft a document that has governed us for over 200 years.  They worked together for the common good of the people of the US.  If they could do it; why can't today's politicians?
I find it unbelievable that some halfwit, wounded or not, lots of us were wounded in wars, can make as inane and ridiculous a comment as "we need to fund the troops. We are making progress in Iraq." After nearly five years we still have almost 200,000 troops in a nation of 25 million, and if you count other nations and mercenary assassins, near a half million.

And what progress have we made? Well the violence is down, the violence is down, the violence is down. And is that important? The violence could drop to zero, the war could be won, the troops could be brought back home, Iraq could have a democratic governement and the end result of all this would be nothing but the lessening of America's security and a hastening of our departure from the world's stage.

Even if we win what will be the result? Iraq will be a democratic state but its people will still be Muslims, it will still be surrounded on all sides by current or soon to be Isalamic Republics, it will be a thorn in the side of these republics, another Israel of our creation and our responsibility, and the moment we cut our support and stop spending a hundred billion a year to maintain the farce, the government will fall, a new civil war will break out and Iraq will become a new Islamic Republic aligning with the others as an enemy of the US. Hundreds of thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and a nation's honor will have been for nothing except to follow the dictates of an incompetent fool who hadn't the slightest idea of what to do after 9/11. More of the same year after year after year is a pretty poor return for our sacrifices.

The issue is still the war itself in Iraq, not the amount of the violence, and as long as we let ourselves be distracted from the course of ending it by trivial, immaterial things like this we shall get what we deserve sooner rather than later.
70% of the public wants somebody versed in international affairs to bring us back to respected position. the top three ce&o have no real experience and are lightweights in this arena, even they admitt that joe biden has the best handle on iraq,iran,afgan.,pakistan and so did 70 plus senators for his iraq solution. given that why are you all backing the lightweights and letting the best qualified languish at 3%? joe talks straight, stands firm, and has the international savy to lead the us out of this mess and back to prominence. get your priorities straight and actually look at this candidate without the preconcieved notion of which is best.
If an anti-war group featured this soldier in an ad, they would be criticized for "using the troops for political gain". Certainly rush would say the soldier was brainwashed by the loony left.

No matter what opinion a soldier has of this conflict, they have the right to be heard.  THEY EARNED IT.   It's just sad that pro-war advocates don't appreciate the opinion of those who served and are now against the war.  By the same token, anti-war voices often have little respect for vets who belive the war is just.  We should respect our veterans, no matter how they (and we) feel about Iraq.
another mis-leading account of congressional goings-on.

 republicans even though the so-called minority in congress has in actuality the ability to block and kill anything the dems try to do.

 the answer to the quagmire is simple, vote in more dem congress persons in 08 to eliminate the republican resistance to change.
Once again Politico proves that they're nothing but the Drudge Report with a thin veneer of respectability.  Anyone who's being honest knows those measures have been blocked by Republicans in the Senate and it's irresponsible of the MSM to not point it out.  As far as the Surge is concerned violence is down but why?  Most likely because now there's a US cop on every corner.  Violence remains just as high as ever in areas where troops were not surged.  What happens next Spring when it's inevitable that troop levels will decrease?  We'll see.  What of Kurdistan, the only part of the country that has worked to date?  In return for the Kurds cooperation we've turned a blind eye to their cross-border raids into Turkey.  That isn't acceptable to Turkey, who we desperately need as a logistical link.  This morning the Turks launched helicopter rocket attacks at Kurdish positions in Iraq, using the Bush administration's own anti-terrorist rhetoric to make it clear they will brook no interference.  Those are the facts, if you don't want to face them you're just going along with the failures that have been the obvious outcome of failing to plan for all eventualities.  It doesn't mean I want to fail.  Once again I'll state that I'm a proud, patriotic American excercising my right to have and express an opinion of my own.  Anyone who doesn't recognize that right is an insignificant, fascist toad.
Democrats need to worry about things shifting from Iraq to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Didn't UBL order his troops to focus on Pakistan? What happens if things calm down in Iraq enough that it becomes the media's forgotten war? Remember Afghanistan and even Pakistan have always been the justified war for dems.
Here's to hoping things do calm down in Iraq, and they can become as filthy rich and spoiled as some of their oil rich neighbors.
In response to Shadow, maybe if the democrats stopped piling unwanted, unrelated pork into the military spending bills more republicans would be on board.  The old argument of they did it to us so now we need to do it to them is not the basis that the democrats ran on last year.  I seem to remember them claiming a new era of transparency and bipartisanship.  For a group that is suppose to be so anti-war and President Bush, I find it interesting that the have to bribe their own members with pork in a bill to get them to vote for and ideal that should be able to stand on it's own merit.
Spoken like a true republican jerry. Walk boldly and carry a big smirk. When we went into Iraq we had supporters from many Muslim nations that disappeared quickly when the Crusader went in to steal their oil.When we can't control a country the size of California we need all the friends we can get.
If some country invaded the United States I for one would be doing everything in my power to stop them.
John B, Des Moines, IA, well put, anyone who follows what happens on Capitol Hill can see the reason why these bills have failed.  It is not because the majority of Dems but the majority of the Repuks who keep goose stepping with the dunce in chief.  Maybe they are just afraid of losing their lucrative contracts?  The problem with Iraq is that we failed in our own convictions of treating people PERIOD.  We are now seen in the eyes of the world just as ruthless as those countries that the dunce in chief listed as an axis of evil.  Jerry, if you think that not worrying about what the rest of the world thinks of us, maybe you need a lesson on world economics, because we have a very large sum of debt held by countries around the globe that could easily destroy us economically.  As for treating veterans with respect, I have just one question, where were you when the Repuk party called people like me UNPATRIOTIC?  Enough said
I constantly see the media and people say the surge is a success... When you bring in a bunch of troops and the death toll increases dramatically for months creating the worst year yet for deaths then that death toll finally goes back down to what it was before the surge and this is a success? What exactly did we accomplish? I'm either missing something or there is a real sense of denial going on.
I don't understand polls.  The one you cite here leads one to believe that Americans want a President who is well versed in International Relations. If that is true, why aren't candidates like Senator Biden, Gov. Richardson, and to some degree, Senator Dodd leading the pack?  They have far more foreign relations experience that Senator Clinton and Obama yet they are way behind in public opinion polls.  What gives?  I'm not so sure that I give too much credence to any polls at this point.
Oh God let's see here:

We got someone in DC who thinks we should all hold hands and turn to Mecca.  That won't fly....

Then we have a bitter army guy who talks about the republicans as if they are nothing but a bunch of Nazi's.  Tell you what, when i see the Nazi Swazita over the white house and people really goose stepping down Pennsylvania Ave. to the capitol and Jewish people being shot in the streets, you might have me there.  But until then, can we back off with this Nazi stuff?  It makes you liberals look like you are growing your own grass in the back yard and smoking wayyyyyyyy to much of it.
"Who cares what the rest of the world thinks of us?"

Well, we have soldiers stationed in many foreign countries. Would be nice if those countries liked us a little.  Safer for the soldiers too, I would think.

We trade with countries around the world.  What happens to our economy, jobs, if those countries suddenly decide to longer buy our products?  We rely heavily on oil from foreign suppliers. Might be nice if those countries hated us less, might affect the price of oil and gas in our country.

Terrorists in several countries openly express their hatred for America and our people.  Do we want the number of those terrorists to grow?  Might make us less safe here at home.





Just because the Dems are in the majority doesn't mean they are total control of Congress or the Federal Gov't - which is what the article seems to indicate.  As prior posts noted, it takes 60 votes in the Senate to get work done there, and since the Dems are only a one vote majority in that house, it is clear the real propblem lies with Republicans for any inaction....the Great Obstructionist Party!  And no one posting here has any real idea as to whether the so called surge is working, or if it is, is it meaningful long standing success?  Will the Surge get the sunnis and shiites to end their centuries old hatred and distrust for one another?  Will it get the people in Iraq to get their own house in order?  NO!
To reiterate: It takes a 2/3 vote majority in each house of congress to ensure a bill can be passed by over riding a presidential veto.  This idiot we currently have in the White House is vetoing EVERYTHING coming out of Congress just because it is coming from a Democratically controlled congress.  Look what he did with SCHIP.  The Democrats have REPEATEDLY asked for conferences with the White House to come to a compromise but good ole Dubya has refused to even meet with them.  This makes it the Democrats fault?  I think not.

The 'pork the Democrats have attached'?!?!  Are you serious?  What about the 'bridge to nowhere', the mule museum, and other earmarks too numerous to list attached by the Republicans?  The number one earmarker honor is currently held by a Republican.  Both party's do this so don't give us any of that 'holier than thou' crap about the earmarks Democrats are attaching.

Besides, the things the White House is complaining about are things like, oh, you know, unimportant things like childrens health care, ensuring the middle class doesn't get hit with the AMT, boosting funding above Bush's request for veterans, money to help the poor, changes to the tax code so that the very rich actually pay more than 15% in taxes while the rest of us are paying 20%, 30%, 38% . . . you know, unimportant things (yes, for you right wing Bush apologizers, that was sarcasm).

Get a grip, right wingers, you are going to lose big time come November 2008.  Get ready for a Democratically controlled House and Senate that can over ride any veto if, by some very slim chance a Republican wins the White House . . . but then, they won't have to worry about it as there will be a Democrat in the White House who will actually have a brain . . . and know how to use it.

Get ready for an economic boom (as was seen under Bill CLinton where we actually had surpluses and were paying down the national debt, the Bush White House failed to take action to prevent the impact of the Internet bubble burst by sitting and doing nothing) fueled by a more stable Middle East due to actual diplomacy (vs. the current 'cowboy', 'my way or the highway', 'you're either with us or against us' mentality of the idiocracy currently running things), a boom in R&D into and production of alternative energy sources (not more drilling), tax credits for green investing, a fair tax code that does not punish the rich, just ensures they pay the same percentage as everyone else, etc., etc., etc.

And now, here come the really nasty responses to this posting.  I can take it, I was right about the Iraq war, Bush and the economy in 2000/2001/2002 and I'm right about this.  Watch the attacks on the messenger and not the message, it should be entertaining.
obama what a name sounds like a terriost name . i beleive he did come from the terriost  family like every one says in america .
John B: You are in error. Indeed,one merely turn not to POLITICO[which is in no way a ''Drudge''-type report as it leans liberal], but to the websites of the United States Senate and House of Representatives to find out how these votes are being made up according to party. What we find,is that the majority of freshmen Democrat legislators who came in on the 06 wave are voting with the GOP minority in these Iraq bills,as they are crafted by those who are too far to the leftwing to have any chance of success.Pass the the ''blind eye''given Turkey,and this is nonsense. The adminsitration is working closely with Turkey allowing them access to our recon sats which are picking up the movements of PKK rebels on the Kurdish side of the border. ''Helicopter raids''are a far cry from full divisional-strength incursion across the border.Further,where troops are not ''surged''in Iraq ,the violence continues to  diminish,leading to its lowest levels since 2005.

Also see:

www.senate.gov


www.house.gov

Why is the surge working?  Because of General Petraius(sp?).  He is the only reason.  He has implemented a strategy he was using in a section of Iraq before he got the top job.  His was the only section in Iraq that was actually showing progress until he was told to stop the way he was doing things and go into the bunker mentality.

This General really understands that you can't force people to do what you want them to but rather you have to talk to them and get them personally involved.  You can't convince anyone you are on their side when you only come out among them on patrols or missions.

He has also said that this war will not be won militarily but requires diplomacy.  Too bad the idiots in the White House haven't learned anything from him.  You can not accomplish anything unless you talk to people and understand why they are doing what they are doing and make them understand why you are doing what you are doing.
It's not about the surge or reduced numbers of deaths for some of you righties...it's about war policy and the effectiveness of the U.S. to negotiate and deal with threats. It has been diminished under Bush and the necon ideology. Listening to Bush yesterday was frightening..he really thinks military campaigns in foreign lands actually prevents local terrorism. All it takes are a few men (Britian bombings). Republicans care about statistics, numbers, and party lines. Everyone else cares about the security and integrity of our country, that's what the GOP doesn't get....at all.
Dot it's because the Clinton's have a stranglehold on the Democratic party that won't end until it is proven they can lose an election. Plus after the last 2 elections there is a certain paranoid reaction about winning at all costs. The same effect for the GOP b/c they are desperate after fumbling on Bush.
Cowards on one side, criminals on the other.
Yes, the Dems are crashing and burning, but yes, the GOP has blocked everything they've tried to do, and when something gets through the GOP obstructionists, Bush vetos it.  And, sure, the Surge is working and deaths are down---recently, though this year is still our worst yet---but so is our presence in S. Korea---fifty years later.  Having a soldier on every street or babysitting an ally for two generations is NOT a fix, it's an admission that the people we're protecting can't, or won't, do it for themselves. How is that a success, considering all the zillions of our hard-earned dollars are going into this, with no real victory to show for it?
I am in Iraq working for the DoD overseeing the contractors. I invaded Iraq in 03 where people praised us and thanked us. Now, I feel lke we are a unwanted parasite sucking all the oil out of Iraq. We all know the War was badly mismanaged; when Rumsfeld ignored Gen Shinseki I knew that this war would turn in to another Vietnam (A war run by Politicians). Face it Bush is accountable.
I hear what the guy is saying Victory in Iraq, and I think long and hard on it, but for the life of me I do not know what that means.
Can anyone explain to me what Victory in Iraq means?
I am here I see the people, talk to the troops and watch them deploy for missions, but nothing they are accomplishing I can honestly say add up to Victory for Iraq.
If the Sunnis and Shites stop fighting does that means we have Victory in Iraq?
If we start getting the full capactity of oil promised by W. that would pay for the war would we get Victory in Iraq?
If Al Qaeda in Iraq is vanquished does that mean Victory in Iraq?
If people can just learn to live together and treat one another with respect and kindness is that Victory in Iraq?
Or if we just kill all that is here and leave a barren wasteland is that Victory in Iraq?
Out of all my questions I can concieveably see one being accomplished. The hate here has been for over thousand years and democracy will not change that hate.
So as I sit here wasting my time before going to play basketball with kids who might not play the next night ask yourself what is Victory in Iraq?
I do know Sacrifce in Iraq and what we service members have given so people can discuss this topic; the prices we have paid, but Victory seems like a pipedream like Victory in Vietnam
greg opelika, alabama

I thought this issue was dealt with yesterday.  The fact that his name is Obama does not make him a terrorist. Your post is an insult to Senator Obama.
Who served?

DEMOCRATS:

Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71.

David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72.

Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72.

Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade.

Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam.

Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-'47; Medal of Honor, WWII.

Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea.

Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star &Bronze Star,
Vietnam.

Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.

Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval Reserve, 1968-74.

Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91.

Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII, receiving the Bronze Star and
seven campaign ribbons.

Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Stars, and
Soldier's Medal.

Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, PO! W. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit.

Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart.

Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V.

Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star.

Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57

Chuck Robb: Vietnam

Howell Heflin: Silver Star

George McG overn: Silver Star &DFC during WWII.

Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy.

Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and Air Medal with 18 Clusters.

<><><><><><><><

REPUBLICANS

Dennis Hastert: did not serve.

Tom Delay: did not serve.

Roy Blunt: did not serve.

Bill Frist: did not serve.

Mitch McConnell: did not serve.

Rick Santorum: did not serve.

Trent Lott: did not serve.

Dick Cheney: did not serve.

John Ashcroft: did not serve.

Jeb Bush: did not serve.

Karl Rove: did not serve.

Saxby Chambliss: did not serve.

Vin Weber: did not serve.

R! ichard Perle: did not serve.

Douglas Feith: did not serve.

Eliot Abrams: did not serve.

Richard Shelby: did not serve.

Jon Kyl: did not serve.

Tim Hutchison: did not serve.

Christopher Cox: did not serve.

Newt Gingrich: did not serve.

Phil Gramm: did not serve.

Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve.

John M. McHugh: did not serve.

J C Watts: did not serve.

Jack Kemp: did not serve.

Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.

George Pataki: did not serve.

Spencer Abraham: did not serve.

John Engler: did not serve.

Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army ZZZbase.

Antonin Scalia: did not serve.

Clarence Thomas: did not serve.

< ;><><><><><><><>><>

PUNDITS &PREACHERS

Sean Hannity: did not serve.

Rush Limbaugh: did not serve

Bill O'Reilly: did not serve.

Michael Savage: did not serve.

George Will: did not serve.
..
Paul Gigot: did not serve.

Bill Bennett: did not serve.

Pat Buchanan: did not se! rve.

John Wayne: did not serve.

Bill Kristol: did not serve.

Kenneth Starr: did not serve.

Ralph Reed: did not serve.

Michael Medved: did not serve.

Charlie Daniels: did not serve.

Ted Nugent: did not serve.
Dot:

After the results came out in 2004, I can imagine no one can figure out polls anymore.  Van can quote all the polls he wants from now till next year, they don't mean a thing.  You have to figure half of the people just answer the questions just to get them out of their face.

You libs are also forgetting you had a lot of conservative democrats that got elected to Congress.  They don't drink the koolaid like you leftwing nutjobs do.  They do seem to think about the question before them a little more then the average goofy liberal in congress.  Nancy Pelosi needed their support to become   Madame Speaker and she has to toe their line as well.  So before you go screaming about the GOP, you better look in your own backyard and realize the democrats you voted in are not the democrats you thought you voted for.
Lee Holmes to a degree is correct...that's why I say Pelosi is a good politician but a poor leader. Alot of those freshman came from conservative districts. And them or the GOP aren't going to sign onto bills that contaign language or actions that they are obviously not going to accept. And it damages efforts on future Dem bills that actually are reasonable. That's why these bills get killed. Pelosi and Reid has to find a middleground...even if it's only an inch.
"obama what a name sounds like a terriost name . i beleive he did come from the terriost  family like every one says in america ."

greg opelika alabama (Sent Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:17 PM)

Everyone in America says he came from a terrorist family? I must have missed that.

Oh, and how did you even get on this site? I wasn't aware that they had electricity in Alabama yet, much less the internets.
greg i live near opelika and you sound as about as dumb as most of the residents look when I go into your local wal-mart.
The Dems are a spinless and disappointing lot.  Not able to produce one positive result except those supportive of the cheney/bush cabal.  Oh that we had a leader.  BTW, see David Brooks op-ed piece today in the NYT on Senator McCain.
Shadow - It takes sixty votes in the Senate to move forwards unobstructed, and the only people responsible for falling short of that vote total on each of those bills are Republicans, not Democrats.


The usual whine from the left.

And how, pray-tell, did the Republicans get all those bills past prior to 2006?  They never had 60 votes in the Senate, but yet they managed to get their work done.

Reid is a complete embarrassment.  How did this fool ever get to be in charge?
Who served?  (long list of happy bs)

And yet, the military hates the Democrats.  Go figure.
Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-1953.

Nice to know he wasn't on the water rescue team......
So when we win in Iraq, what did we win?  What did America really get out of it?
"report, titled ‘The Hidden Costs of the Iraq War,’ estimates that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have thus far cost the average U.S. family of four more than $20,000.”

I will definitely send this to my relatives who said they voted for Bush because of the $500 in taxes they would save.  I'd laugh if it wasn't so sad.
Jerry, remember it was the Repuk party that you defend that has become the bitter and divisive party.  They also called people UNPATRIOTIC,  I will not let you forget and why-----I BLED FOR THIS COUNTRY.  YOU CAN NOT GET ANY MORE PATRIOTIC THAN THAT.  No I do not mean those who never served are not PATRIOTIC.  Never call me anything other than a PATRIOT.. As for goose stepping the Repuk party is just that they follow blindly a leader who claimed to be a uniter but is nothing more than a divider and a Deserter.  He never fullfilled his service obligation in time of combat operations (no record of serving or not).  Keep on drinking the koolaid because you obviously enjoy it.
So when we win in Iraq, what did we win?  What did America really get out of it?
Terry (Sent Tuesday, November 13, 2007 12:50 PM)

-- a big bill for our children and grandchildren to pay, disabled Americans, dead American, and many many dead Iraqis.  But don't complain, it was high living for the neocons while it lasted.
That's right, Jerry, disparage Kennedy (although it was a good joke) when you can't answer to the list.  In light of that list of who served, seems like calling Democrats spineless wimps is a bit disingenuous (GREAT post SW GR!).  Did you serve, Jerry?  I did.

Oh, and Ted Ginney, it only takes a simple majority to pass a bill that the President will sign.  It takes 2/3 to over ride a veto.  Where did you get your civics education?  Home schooled?  A religious private school?  Comic books?


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