This is the one issue that could kill the dems chances in '08.  You can always count on the republicans to take a divisive issue involving hatred of a whole class of people and capitalize on it. It's really all they have, they can't campaign on positive change, when has that ever happened on their watch?

They say timing is everything. Isn't there another debate coming up soon?  

The Democrats are also on the wring side of the English as the official language issue.

Americans are tired of pressing one for English, or seeing signs in the stores in spanish.
Every other immigrant that came here learned English.
The democrats need to get on the same side as the voters and make English the official language of our country.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the States administer driver's licenses, so it is pointless to ask a presidential candidate what they think about it. What next, asking them what they think about state flags -- oh wait they did that.

Dear First Read;

This is probably the most dumb and idiotic blurb you've ever put out.

"Positive change"?  Can you explain what is positive about tens of millions of illegals coming across our borders?  Very interested in hearing your answer.

Hillary:

Please read the above......
There is your answer......
See how easy it was?......

I keep forgetting, it is the Clinton News Network that is doing the next debate.  So I guess she will get a breather and the hard questions will have to wait.

I wonder which person has the planted question.....

we are not going to halt the flood of illegal immigration or secure our borders with legislation or a fence. we had a war on drugs and tried to secure our borders, they dug tunnels you could walk thru, hows that working for us? also the proposed bill included credits for job skills and education, is that the current illegals we were thinking of legitimizing, i think not. those were mostly manual labor jobs they currently occupy that supposedly we don't want. the immigration bill supports the insourcing of the previously outsourcing of us jobs with the importing of skilled &educated immigrants for jobs our unemployed and grads want' just less money and benefits for corperations to pay.the manual jobs will still be there and the illegals will continue to get in. we demos are supporting this for political leverage with latino vote in ca. & fla. remember 2000? stop the "insourcing of our outsourcing" and get this bill killed and stop wasting money on the fence.

how can the republicans campaign on stopping illegal aliens, they want them here for the slave labor they provide, what have they actually done to curb people from walking across the border for the years they have been in power, nothing.

In every State that I have lived, a permanent address, social security number, finger pints and proof of insurance have been a requirement to get a driver's license.  Maybe this isn't such a bad idea.

Interesting.  MSNBC seems to be advocating that candidates base their positions on what the polls say, not on what they actually believe.  Hm.  I thought that is what the candidates were NOT supposed to do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the States administer driver's licenses, so it is pointless to ask a presidential candidate what they think about it.

Nuanced:

Bet if she had realized that in Philadelphia, we would not be having this debate today.

By the way, Rush played Hillary's planted question tape from 1999, so yes just like the waitress tipping scandal, she has a problem when it comes to planted questions.

Your analysis is half-assed. If it didn't work in Virginia, this issue probably won't work nationally, as long as we're still in Iraq.  It'll only damage the GOP in the long-term.  

Dear First Read;

RE: My last:

I said that your blurb was dumb and idiotic, but didn't say why.

First, Gov. Spitzer's idea comprised 3 aspects, thus one could be for all 3, against all 3, for one and against 2, or for 2 and against one.  Even further, drivers' licenses are state perogatives not federal, so what do federal legislators have to do with them?

Finally, if state license regulators know that applicants are "illegals", don't they have the duty and responsiblity to report those persons to the INS?

To my mind, no candidate for federal office should be expected to answer to "state" activities.

x

I have to agree, the focus on the driver's liscence issue by the political press misses the issue entirely.  The GOP is being dragged to an unelectable position by a minority of their base and this is a huge opportunity for Dems.  

Benefits for illegal immigrants is a hands down loser and keeping that Russert frame is a problem.  But you are missing the forrest.  Most Americans support a plan that combines enforcement with a path to legality for currently illegal immigrants.  If Dems are brave (don't laugh) and articulate a position that puts legality paramount, they blow away the GOP competition on this issue.  Look at the 2006 and 2007 results from Arizona to Virginia and everywhere else.  FIRST READ should know better or at least be more complete in reporting.

Drivers licenses poll horribly because it isn't a solution it is a policy that sweeps the issue under the rug. It say's we are going to continue to ignore the issue.  Drivers licenses aren't immigration policy they are band aid's.

Now hispanics do have problems they need to address in framing their debate.

First and foremost La Raza needs to be renamed to something non-racist.  Enough people speak spanish to be offended by an equality group calling itself "the race".  It hinders their cause by implying they are special.  

Candidates need to have the guts to stand for a federal solution, not band-aid state solutions.  Where people differ is on how many should legally be here and for what purpose. Drivers licenses say's we are going to let illegals still come because we aren't going toa ddress such a politically charged issue and the people want them to address it.

You know some people let their prejudices and ignorance sway themselves to think that this is a problem. Some in the Republican party use code to make this more of a racial issue than a policy issue.  Look, on merit Gov. Eliot Spitzer bill makes sense because WE HAVE 12-20 Million Illegal Immigrants in this country that are UNDOCUMENTED. The majority of the illegals are from Latin American countries <<<which makes this smells of racism.  The congress could not pass the Immigration Reform bill because the bill is for "amnesty". What part of that bill was "amnesty"?  The Illegals would have to pay fines and the back taxes. Amnesty means "with out penalty".

Going back to my point, if they don't have a licence, then they don't have insurance. So when you get into a wreck with one and you have your rates go up because of this pety argument just think who Really wins...

I agree Doug, the repubs will beat dems brains out over illegal immigration. The dems do not accept the overwhelming sentiment against consessions to illegal aliens. Not only do illegal immigrants drive illegally they are guilty of smuggling, tax evasion and the passing of forged legal documents, felonies that any American citizen would be prosecuted for. Wake up dems, if we are not willing to prosecute illegal aliens as we do common American citizens, why do we make such laws? Only enforcing employer sanctions will do the job, if there are no means of survival, they will not come or stay.

This is from the Hill.com
Very scary telephone call.....

The object of the call, and a follow-up breakfast Thursday morning with campaign chairman and former chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) Terry McAuliffe, was apparently to stop whatever bleeding the senator might have sustained during a debate in which Clinton wore a bull’s-eye on her back throughout the evening.

Penn and Mantz said “a new phase” in the campaign had begun with about 65 days to go before the Iowa caucuses. They expect Obama and Edwards to go “negative on TV, and we’re going to need the resources to fight that front.”

While one supporter voiced his concern that the Clinton campaign is not devoting enough money and staff to Iowa, lagging behind Obama, most supporters who commented on the call expressed their displeasure with what they saw as the moderators’ focus on Clinton.

One caller from Oklahoma City said that “the questions … were designed to incite a brawl,” and that Russert’s and Brian Williams’s moderating was “an abdication of journalistic responsibility.”

Another said Russert “should be shot,” before quickly adding that she shouldn’t say that on a conference call.

Penn and Mantz said they were hearing a lot of the same sentiment from other supporters, but they do not plan to engage the media or the debate’s moderators.


Boy, there are some seriously ticked people on Hillary's team........
Also one needs to be careful about what one says in a telephone call with the media listening in.......

We need federal immigration reform, but every day that it's not in effect, the states have every right to protect their citizens on public roads.  That's an easy, simple argument, and when put like that, will sway a majority of Americans - but it must be put clearly and succinctly, and without any waffling.  Hillary is not up to this.  Obama is.  

Ha!  Yeah, because using the immigration card worked so incredibly well for the GOP in the special elections.  If they want to continue to alienate hispanic voters by insisting that border security along the Mexico border is related to terrorism rather than their inate fear of brown people that's fine.  But most Americans know that the 9/11 hijackers crossed into the US at the Canadian border and, as we all know, Republicans are terrible at everything anyway.  Sorry First Read team, this is a point where the conventional wisdom on this issue is just wrong.  Just wait and see...

Cassy, SD wrote "Positive change?  Can you explain what is positive about tens of millions of illegals coming across our borders?  Very interested in hearing your answer.



I wasn't describing illegal immigration as positive, I was describing the typical repbulican style of campaigning as hate-based and fear-based.  They find a group of people, convince you that those people are to blame for all our problems, then tell you how they are going to save you from those people.  None of this is based in fact, and the promised safety is bogus as well, but you people buy their crap every time. It's no wonder that your reading comprehension skills are as flawed as your perception.

One caller from Oklahoma City said that “the questions … were designed to incite a brawl,” and that Russert’s and Brian Williams’s moderating was “an abdication of journalistic responsibility.”

Another said Russert “should be shot,” before quickly adding that she shouldn’t say that on a conference call.

Penn and Mantz said they were hearing a lot of the same sentiment from other supporters, but they do not plan to engage the media or the debate’s moderators.

My question is......

What sentiment are they hearing?......

The questions or Tim Russert being shot?

" You can always count on the republicans to take a divisive issue involving hatred of a whole class of people and capitalize on it"

It isn't hatred of a whole class of people, it is serious anger towards what those people did to be here, as well as what happens when excessive population growth occurs, espeically given the different cultures of the people.

Its divisive of the Dems to call anyone against illegal immigration the nasty terms they use to rather then to discuss the issue too.  

My views have been considered liberal in the past, but the one thing I have noticed, 2006 brought a visable change in the Republican party in that they are moving towards a more centrist view, the Democrat party seems stuck with not even a liberal view, but a progressive liberal view.   I applaud the diversity of the centrist view, rather then the  close minded extremes.  I do not appreciate the idea of either extreme controlling us or our government.

The issue with illegal immigration will not be solved by easing laws to accommodate the problem.  We must enforce the laws we already have, not allow amnesty and end birthright citizenship.  That will be a great start to solving the problem.  Ron Paul vows to make this his policy.

The Ron Paul Revolution
http://www.prezronpaul.com

"Interesting.  MSNBC seems to be advocating that candidates base their positions on what the polls say, not on what they actually believe.  Hm.  I thought that is what the candidates were NOT supposed to do?

Carrie, Eastern Iowa"

Candidates should base their positions on what is right, wrong, workable, pragmatic, can be accomplished, etc., not based upon what polls well. However, if you believe Hillary Clinton is not polling in order to determine the position she should take you are not living in reality. Last night I was polled, and it was clear from the questions Clinton is trying to poll where she is vulnerable, and also trying to gauge what Iowans think about drivers licenses to "undocumented workers"  among other issue.

Given President Clinton polled almost every issue, and HRC has repeatedly polled issues I think it's reasonable for MSNBC to state the public isn't with HRC on this issue.

Frankly I think the public is wrong on the license issue, but I do think it's funny that the one time she goes out on a limb and answers a controversial question she hangs herself.

What's the big deal about English Only? If we're going to have an Official Lanquage that everybody has to learn, why not a language with some History. Everybody knows that American is about as far removed from what the Brits speak, as English is from Anglo/Saxon. Fr'instance: "Let's Sashay over to the Barbecue and Fricasse some Salsa Burgers, an'then Fondue on the Patio." What fardels bear? My vote for the Official American Language is 'Etruscan'.

Doug, San Diego "You can always count on the republicans to take a divisive issue involving hatred of a whole class of people and capitalize on it."  Doug I'm sure you would agree with a poll that stated 70% of Americans disagree with the war in Iraq.  Well it seems even more Americans have a problem with ILLEGAL IMMAGRATION.  This is not a Republican tactic you fool this is the voice of the American people.  Please get your head out of the Democratic talking points a&* and understand this for what it is!  People are more than welcome to come to America for a better life (interesting that the Dems always talk about how bad we are as a nation how bad it is here and how bad Aamericans are yet tens of millions risk everything just to try to get here here)but they need to do it the right way!  My grandfather and millions of other American imagrants did the right thing that's all we ask be accountable pay your taxes obey the law!  

win brown

you give yourself away by calling them the "democrat" party !!!

What an idiot !!

Just a night with friends

Don't bet on huge pyrotechnics between Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama.

The calendar and the nature of their campaigns argues against jugular politics. It is too early in the season to go negative now. There is plenty of time for that before the January Iowa caucuses.

Then, too, Clinton is the front-runner, and it's an axiom of politics that front-runners need to be above the fray lest they get muddied up.

And while you might expect Obama to throw a punch, this is a guy who has promised a different kind of campaign without the usual "politics of destruction."

Besides with President Bush to kick around, they don't need to go at each other.


This was advertised on CNN.com.........
They are predicting a quiet night among friends......

I guess it also depends on who the Clinton's managed to get to ask the questions.......

I'll gladly trade any hard working honest Hispanic family for a worthless whining lying race baiting white liberal family from the north east.

Sure, illegal immigration is a problem, but illegal immigration has very little direct effect on most Americans in comparison to the crisis in medical insurance coverage, the economic meltdown, including the impact of the Iraq war, and Bush's failure in Afghanistan and Pakistan, which are the REAL central front in the war against Islamic extremists.

Face it: the only reasons that illegal immigration is such a dominant issue is xenophobia in general and anti-Mexican racism in partiular.

"Finally, if state license regulators know that applicants are "illegals", don't they have the duty and responsiblity to report those persons to the INS?"
----------------------------------------------------

See, I wondered this too. Also wondered how the license office knows these are illegals--do they(the illegals)  ask for a license without giving an address, or are they required to show proof that they are in US legally before they can get license, etc. I am having a difficult time imagining anyone being willing to risk the consequences of admitting they are here illegally. I have a feeling I am being dense, but I don't understand how this works.  

WIn Brown [[My views have been considered liberal in the past, but the one thing I have noticed, 2006 brought a visable change in the Republican party in that they are moving towards a more centrist view,]]

So, you think the fact that Giuliani hired Norman Podhoretz, a neo-con crazy who's itching to bomb Iran indicates a move toward more centrist views? Or that the pub candidates all back the use of torture in the so-called "war on terror" indicates centrist views?

Easy answer on immigration:

TELL THE TRUTH !!

Figure a reasonable position
Then, tell the truth
Tell America what your position is
Don't try to have it both ways
Don't 'finagle' the issue

It's a complex issue...
But, 'honesty is the best policy'

People will see through Hillary and McCain

I am a Hillary supporter and despite the purely state issue at hand, I want a direct explicit answer from her on this. It's very simple.  Either you are for it for practicaly reasons [it will put all those illegals in a data base for the INS to read and maybe do their job and deport those people], or you are against it for policy reasons [driving is a privilege illegal aliens are not entitled to because they are criminals].  The homeland security argument is misplaced. The new drivers licences obtained without social security numbers or proof of citizenship, will say just that, by stating not valid for ID. I also supported Spitzer and voted for him. I think he's an idiot for raising this.

Politicians and Americans for that matter should take a look at "American Harvest." Its a non-partisan feature length documentary about immigration as it relates to agriculture. It presents the facts as they are without political bias.

Every farmer I have spoken to wants to secure our borders. And they also want a workable solution to LEGAL immigration.

Americans have to understand that we all need to appreciate and respect those people who grow and harvest our crops.

The men and women that put food on our kitchen tables deserve no less.

http://www.americanharvestmovie.com

American Harvest Synopsis

Anti-immigration sentiment sweeps across America. A journey from Florida to New York, including a trip to the Mexican border, reveals the lives and issues of legal and illegal migrants and farmers working toward a better life. Is the immigration system in America flawed? Immigrants are dying to feed America.

American farmers and agriculture rely on immigrants to do jobs that Americans won't do or feel that are simply beneath them. Some only see the problems in the news from the perspective of those extreme points of view of the left and the right side of our political system.

Discrimination of immigrants has existed in the United States since the English persecuted the Irish. It was once generally considered that if you were Greek or Southern Italian you were not white.

American Harvest points out the inconsistencies of the current policy on immigration. See the changing face of immigrant America as it relates to Agriculture.

Follow legal and illegal farm workers and the farmers caught in the middle of a flawed immigration policy.

Hillary Clinton Warns Wolf Blitzer, don't attack me and pull a "Russert", Clinton now in threatening mode, be safe everyone

Anytime I see the words "undocumented workers" I know the person who wrote the piece is in full support of an open border. Anytime I see the words illegal aliens I know they support strong border security. Those are the only words I need to understand their point of view.

The dirty little secret for Spitzer's illegal driver's license proposal is all about getting those people to the voting booth.  As soon as they sign up for the license I understand they get a "motor voter" card and all they have to do is mark an x where it says US citizen and presto they can vote (for the Democrat)of course.

From First Read:
an even BIGGER PROBLEM.....

'...The Politico's Roger Simon writes on the question-planting story, and he notes that the real distrust this raises is that of the campaign staff for the candidate. "Because when staffers plant questions, it means they don't trust the candidate to handle herself in public. They don't think she can answer real questions from real people....'

Think about THAT !!
Hillary's campaign is AFRAID of HILLARY ANSWERING UN-PLANTED QUESTIONS !!

It's HARD to keep those lies straight....
Will anyone ask Hillary about IDs for illegal aliens ?
I'm sure she's been coached on how to answer the question.

But, if she has to think about a different question.....
Will the CNN moderator demand an honest answer ?
Will CNN let Hillary spin with 'non-answers' to their questions ?
What about the other candidates ?
Will they keep up the heat on Hillary ?

If so, she'll melt down !!
(I'm melting, I'm MELTING !!)

This is the critical debate
This is the last chance to stop Hillary

How bad do you want it John Edwards ?
How bad do you want it Barack Obama ?

Bill Richardson, are you still fishing for the VP selection ?
How about you, Chris Dodd ?

Game on

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IrE6FMpai8

Jane:  Did I say anything at all about Hillary Clinton in my post?  Let me answer that - NO.  I will thank you to refrain from making insulting assumptions on me based on comments that I never even made.  

My point, because you clearly need me to spell it out for you, is that there is all this emphasis on how candidates should follow their beliefs and not the polls, and there is MSNBC saying that the candidates need to pay attention to this item in the polls.  THAT was my point.  Not about what Hillary is/was doing, or what any other candidate is/was doing.  

It's not ALL about Hillary, you know.

My vote for the Official American Language is 'Etruscan'.
Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa (Sent Tuesday, November 13, 2007 2:00 PM)

-- we already have Esperanto as the world wide universal language, but I could be convinced to go with Pig Latin. On the other hand, traditionally most Americans could neither read nor write so maybe we should go with pictograms. :)

I see the same thing happening with illegal immigration that is happening with the Iraq occupation: since 70% of citizens are against it, the govt. will do all it can to ensure that we keep supporting it.

I'll gladly trade any hard working honest Hispanic family for a worthless whining lying race baiting white liberal family from the north east. - Dave, Tn

-- did you mean vice versa?  What would you trade for a worthless whining lying race baiting white supremist conservative family from (fill in the blank)?

This is the week du jour story, it is also the piece Gloria Borger wrote in todays US News and World Report, It looks like journalistic lemmings are following each other on the story of the week. The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, sees the repub party in tranistion, it may go centrist but it also may break apart into smaller parties.
Illegal immigration is a problem but it will take much more than the candidates spouting off about it, it will take government and business and other istitutions to make a concerted effort to fix it. fences and xenophobic one liners will only get votes but little headway.

Isn't being an illegal a crime? That is what I was taught.  Why in the H E L L would you give someone who is committing a crime a Driver's License?  Is someone in New York helping to move the North American Union forward, sure looks like it to me.

It seems logical that instead of trying to build physical barriers to keep illegal immigrants out, it would be more effective to simply eliminate the incentives for coming here illegally. Since millions of people are taking big risks to come here, it is obvious that there are strong incentives. Higher wages, healthcare, birthright citizenship for their children born here, no taxes, etc.

Of course, some of those things are easier to get rid of than others, but the taxpayers of this country should be the ones realizing the benefits, not millions of undocumented illegals. The gov't could easily repeal birthright citizenship, and make it automatic ONLY if both parents are here legally.

With health care and driver's licenses and all of the other priveleges - require proof of citizenship or legal visitor status to get them. Obviously I don't think an illegal who goes to a hospital should be allowed to just bleed to death on the floor, but they can be treated - and deported.

I am a bit offended by those here who say people against a path for citizenship are racists. Sure, maybe some people are, but that is a broad statement to make about people you don't know. It isn't an issue of racism, it is an issue of fairness - the freedoms this country was built upon. Work hard, obey the law, live the American dream in safety and without persecution. The vision was not for hardworking citizens to pay for millions of illegal immigrants.

Other than birthright citizenship the law doesn't have to change a lot - it simply needs to be enforced. The laws exist, but politicians are slow to encourage enforcement of them for fear of being labeled racists or alienating a potential voter pool.

Houston: To put plainly,you are full of it. Indeed,the healthcare and infrastructure crisis IS being driven by illegal immigration to a large degree.[Admitted to here by the PEW[nonpartisan,liberal leaning,if anything],Charitable Trusts findings on Hispanics in America today. Most without health insurance are illegals or their progeny.[which critics hook onto the nations total of those without insurance, magically turning illegal aliens into ''American citizens'']. Most in state jails and prisons are illegals or their progeny,as is the moving force behind Americas rise in drug and violent crimes through the massive participation of young Hispanics in gangs,estimated to be in the hundreds of thousands,perhaps millions in just the West alone through the Mexican Mafias largest gang structures in the Sureno[13] and Norteno[14]criminal gangs.
                  The idea that the need to get hold of these problems ,is based in ''racism''and ''xenophobia''is crap swill trotted out by a pack of know-nothings that goes too often unchallenged. Here,on these boards,it will.
            We recall our western upbringings in safe, multi-racial neighborhoods where we made lifelong friends of residents with the surnames of Gonzales,Reynosa,Lopez,and Garcia. We worked with coworkers with the first names of Antonio,Jesus,Lupe,and Juan. We entered into the military alongside of platoon and squad members and shipmates with ''Hermasillo'',and ''Cortez''and ''Villagarosa''
stitched above their uniform pockets. Many of us married,creating blended families of Anglo-Hispanic cultures.Adopting cross-trading cultures,traditions,clothing and music,names,even architecture and fashion.
           We were thus a portion of the actual fabric of the West long before its encroachment by violent gangs,and the most unbridled movement of peoples on the planet today,done without any thought to the consequence of such movements. Easy for easterners to point fingers,usually,indeed,exclusively,liberals and the left,who are not seeing the effects wrought by illegal immigration on the first western,now increasingly, American interior states.Whole cities are falling into disrepair. Gangs hold sway over large portions like feudal lords,exacting a terrible price for their stewardship[observed in last weeks NEWSWEEK Magazine on demonstrable ethnic cleansing in LA by latino gangs trying to force out African Americans whose roots in these neighborhoods go back over a century].The increase of heavily armed gangs elicits a response on the portion of the nations state police systems,which are themselves becoming more militarized as a result.
 Their effects on the environment are catastrophic,elicting internecine warfare between Americas most prominant environmental organizations,torn between standing against illegal immigration or silently condoning it. Illegals are in the process of utterly destroying national park systems such as Big Bend in Texas,Organ Pipe in Arizona[site of irreplacable,very rare fauna and flora which is being ripped apart by the hundreds of square miles],and even Yosemite,where shooting crimes between rival gang members and grafitti are forcing administrators to consider cutting the number of visitors to the park system,turning park rangers into SWAT teams.
           Enough is enough. No use saying that ''a fence will not work''due to the fact that we haven't even tried it yet. No use ignoring the epidemic of identity theft,a massive business among the illegals,which is costing billions every year in lost wages and lost work hours,nor is there any in the non-adressing of business'responsibility in this mess,which it is to Congress to address. This ''sanctuary''city nonsense must stop. Any who do not comply and get with the program get their federal transportation monies cut off at the knees. None of this is based in phony accuasations of ''racism'' or ''xenophobia''. It is rather,in seeing that ALL Americans of whatever creed,religion ,sex or race live,work and play[and vote], in the safer,cleaner confines of a nation that they deserve.

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