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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Clinton, Penn spin day after poll

Posted: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:59 AM by Domenico Montanaro

From NBC’s Domenico Montanaro
In post-Iowa poll spin, the Clinton campaign rolled out Chief Strategist Mark Penn. He dismissed the latest Washington Post/ABC poll showing Obama ahead, saying there’s been “a lot of over-reporting” on it.

“Iowa’s always been a competitive race,” Penn told MSNBC’s Mika Brzezinski this morning. He finds it “very funny” hearing “we slipped” because “our vote is staying exactly the same. He’s [Obama’s] moving within the margin of error.”

He implicitly questioned the poll’s accuracy, citing that the last one in July also showed Obama ahead. “It’s the only poll to do so,” Penn said.

Obama was ahead of Clinton and Edwards in that poll 27%-26%-26%. Obama was also leading in a late September Newsweek poll 28%-24%-22%.

Penn also dismissed questions of Clinton’s honesty. This poll showed her lagging in that area as did our NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll as we noted in a post on her new ad yesterday.

“A lot of the other polls show honesty is about a wash or equal,” Penn said. He then played up where Clinton scores better: experience. He called health care, experience the “kinds of things they’re [voters] looking for from the next nominee….”

He then took a swipe at Obama’s qualifications to take on the economy. “Voters are sure done with Bush,” Penn began, reacting to Hillary Clinton saying that “It takes a Clinton to clean up after a Bush.”

“Democrats think Bill Clinton did a great job and think she’s ready to be president and ready to manage a tough economy,” Penn said. “Three years ago, Senator Obama was State Senator Obama. There’s a huge gap between these candidates, in a time of war” and in a struggling economy.

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Hill and Penn, please spin faster! The breeze feels good.
I guess a sign of desperation from Clinton's campaign. I guess they are now in panic mode because Obama is beating them to their game.
Let the Spin Begin!!!!!!!!!Since we have'nt seen still crazy for awile, here's one for you " Freefalling" Tom petty.
Another day for pop corn and soda, it is going to be a very fun day to watch all the other supporter spin on this. Have fun and i am going to enjoy my pop and pop corn watching
The more i listen to Clinton campaign the more pathetic they sound. Who in their right mind will believe or trust her?
I'm not exactly sure that Mark Penn is actually helping his candidate with his not-so subtle spin.  Penn is OBSESSED with national polls, which I think most observers know mean very little, but he totally devalues the polls in the one state that has had the most contact with the candidates (Iowa).  I have no problem with Sen. Clinton, but Penn is more and more coming off as the most political of operatives, which fits nicely into Sen. Obama's narrative of Clinton's team running a "textbook" campaign.
With all do Respect Hillary" We knew Bill Clinton, & you maam are No Bill Clinton" A tribute to lloyd benson.
Wow, so much hype over one poll!  Hillary is reinforcing her Iowa campaign at all levels.  Expect the post-Thanksgiving polls to reflect that.  But Hillary is the fortunate candidate here as she, and only she, can afford to lose Iowa.  Obama not so much.
While watching MNBC this AM, it suddenly occurred to me that by "experience", Senator Clinton might rightfully be referring to experience in terms of age. If that is indeed the case, she is absolutely correct- by at least 14 or 15 years.
I don't believe this (insert smilie rolling and laughing)
You don't hear them talking this way about polls when Clinton is ahead. I, personally, don't put too much stake in the polls (they don't call dorms or those who just use cell phones or those who screen their calls, and I think people are really underselling the importance of the youth vote this election cycle), but it is just funny to hear the way the Clinton folks are talking now.
And that whole it takes a Clinton thing is playing into one of the things that people are sick of when it comes to Hillary. That was a real bone-head move on her part.
I guess the unbiased CNN reporting team of Carville and Gergen were wrong about Hillary winning the LV debate. Seems the masses disgree a bit with that conclusion.

It was only a matter of time before Hillary had to stumble. Her entire campaign, and even her entire life, is a house of cards built on lies and deception. She'll slowly sink into hate filled attacks on her opponents trying to gain some traction, but that too will fail for her. Having her husband to shill for her won't help either. Everyone is fairly sick of these two hate-mongers.
Mark Penn must be leaving in a Lala land. Perhaps, his strategist is no longer working. The only strategy the Clinton campaign has is to push polls upon polls and where does it get them now.

I have said it all along; National polls don't matter at this point. Pay attention to IOWA, NH, NV and SC. These four states we determine who win the nomination.

The good thing for Obama about Florida is that they don't have a delegate to present and same goes to Michigan. Obama can afford to loose these two states and still win the nomination. Mark Penn is not a brilliant strategist; he is good at polling but terrible at strategic thinking.
"The more i listen to Clinton campaign the more pathetic they sound. Who in their right mind will believe or trust her?"

Maybe the same people who believe someday you'll post something other than "I hate Hillary"?
the press and republicans can dream cant they? Oh what a race, the republicans I mean ,lets face it that is where all the real drama is ,maybe Roger Ailes isnt the only one for rudy look at his poll slippage thats the big story and yet hilliary this hilliary that.
It is crazy b/c instead of just trying to prove that they are honest people or that they can take definitive stances on issues, everything word out of their mouth has to have some reference to Obama or Edwards or Bush. Geesh, if they spent that energy on speaking the truth then maybe more people would vote for her!!
Too late Penn. I thought Hillary was inevitable and only cared about national polls driven campaign. More bad news for the Clinton camp in the near future.

OBAMA 08
I knew of Bill Clinton, I heard Bill Clinton, and Hillary, you are NO Bill Clinton! Hahahahaha....
Even a political neophyte knows the importance of early states. Mark Penn is a good pollster but terrible strategist. Why did Hillary Clinton wait this long before realizing the importance of IA?

By the way, when Hillary Clinton was running her first senate campaign, David Axelrod was her strategist while Mark Penn was her pollster. Obama recognized the important of early states right from the start and he has the best organizing team on the ground. Thanks to David for figuring it out earlier on. I guess Hillary think she can just cruise to victory because of her name “Clinton”.

I won’t be surprise if Hillary lost her state of New York to Obama. Again Obama has tremendous ground organization in NY.
i must say, i have been undecided for a while now but this latest slime-throwing by hillary seems really hypocritical to me, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to vote for obama now, i just don't trust hillary to say what she really believes!
a good day for Obama supporters!
2008 Presidential Election Weekly Poll
http://www.votenic.com
The Only Poll That Matters.
Results Posted Every Tuesday Evening
Oh Bee, stop your madness! Go Hillary!
A word to the wise:  The Gamble with CNN Orchestrated Debate didn’t play out as the Clinton camp had wished….  America wants answers to our questions and concerns not one minute powerful sound bites.  My income is not a sound bit… The rise in my Healthcare Premium is not a sound bite…. The War in Iraq is not a sound bite…The potential Iran war is not a sound bit…The environment is not a sound bit….The treatment of our Veterans who come back from war or who are still stuck in it is not a sound bit…..The failure of many of our schools is not a sound bit…. Outsourcing our jobs is not a sound bit….The problem with immigration is not a sound bit….the injustices of the housing market is not a sound bit.

Instead of getting offended because someone has had the audacity to ask a question…. Why not try doing the logical thing and just answer it… Instead of sending out these mean spirited Campaign Hench-men/women… why not prove to the country that you are concern with our problems… Instead of hiding behind Bill Clinton or with the romantic idea of being the first woman president, why not let that be the last thing we think about… Because if that is the last thing we think about that means you are doing your job regardless if you are a man or woman… Black…White or Hispanic….Regardless if your Husband is Bill Clinton.

You see Hillary this country is not in the position to continue to fall in love with symbols… Many did that with George Bush… And look at the country now your Payment of bills, Healthcare and your Economy is fine… But there are many of us who can’t say the same.

And when you understand this…truly understand this, then and only then will people start to really believe in you… Your campigan can’t continue to be about how bad The Bush Admisntration destroyed this country…Ding Ding Ding… We know that, we are in fact the ones who are suffering because of it… What we now need is for you to explain exactly how you plan on fixing it.

Until you can do this, you will only be looked at as a Symbol and nothing more…
I don't hate Hillary

I just don't think she represents me or would care about what would make life better for me.

I think Hillary cares about Hillary

It will be a sad day indeed if she lets her advisors lead her down the path of nasty attacks!!

Fight the good fight, Hillary!!!
You dumb fing democrats I sit and watch as you let the one chance you have to take back this goverment and all you can do is hate your frontrunner.RALPH NADER IN 2000 go ralph everyone proved a point that election, enjoyed your bush.
Just 6 words for Mr. Penn and the Clintonites. "I Don't Want To Hear It". Need I Say More?
This a off subject 1st read, but why no thread about harry Reed outmanuevering(sp)GWB in case he wanted to have any Recess appointments over the thanksgiving break. Maybe harry was just waiting to start showing why he is the majority leader?
“Three years ago, Senator Obama was State Senator Obama."

And before she was Senator Clinton, she was First Lady Clinton. So what? I always thought Bill was the President, not Hillary.
Hey Hillary! Which one was it again? Diamonds or pearls?
People don't even listen to Bush's spin anymore.  We hear spin and we tune out.  I'm sure the tuning out spin probably applies to her.  (It is impressive how efficient her campaign is at controlling the message or topic of the media).  Her campaign is flawed in this respect and another tact of honesty might be better warranted.  She should say that there is a great field running against her and that she is going to work hard to represent the country and her party and win the nomination, that the race is far from over.  But since she's mainly running on inevitability, I can see where honesty might be hard for her campaign in this situation.  I guess, if they get a poll that shows people wanting this, then they will do it.
Penn also dismissed questions of Clinton’s honesty.

Of course, when it comes to honesty, the Clinton's are way down the road, out in nowhere land.

Clinton and honesty go togather like Ted Kennedy and AA.
Obama doesn't have a chance. While he is polling well, he is still not tested as a national candidate. If he does pull ahead in any way - he'll blow it.
Obama doesn't have a chance. While he is polling well, he is still not tested as a national candidate. If he does pull ahead in any way - he'll blow it.

Sean, Boston, MA (Sent Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:12 PM)

If he hasn't been tested, then how can you be so sure that he will blow it? It seems to me that if he hasn't been tested, you wouldn't know how he would do if he pulled ahead.

Reality is fascinating.
"The good thing for Obama about Florida is that they don't have a delegate to present and same goes to Michigan. Obama can afford to loose these two states and still win the nomination. Mark Penn is not a brilliant strategist; he is good at polling but terrible at strategic thinking. "


BAM! Good enough.
Hate to say it but Mark Penn is spot on this time.  

Another telling factor in the Post poll is that when asked if they had met (shook hands or spoke to) more respondants said they had met Obama than any other candidate.   Edwards ran close to Clinton on this score.

I find that hard to believe.   Edwards has campaigned far and away more than Obama or CLinton in Iowa.

The media elites are in the tank for Obama and they are playing this poll for all it is worth.

 
Edwards must win Iowa.  No question.


Who is Edwards attacking?  Obama or CLinton?

Clinton.

Who do you think is ahead or nipping at his heels (if you think Edwards is actually leading as some do despite polling)?

Clinton.
I want Hillary to rule me
PBrown..............AMEN!!
When  you look at the past hype about HRC leading in the polls all over the place it fine, but when someone else gets the ups on her these polls mean nothing. Ok Penn is tis another one  of her flip flops?

The HRC camp can`t have it both ways.
1) "The Pile On Issue"
2) "The Gender Card Issue"
3) "The Driver License Issue"
4) "The NAFTA Issue"
I say no more of this nick picking. Obama has yet to
to stoop to her level and with these kinds of attacks & flip flops its no wonder why he is pulling ahead of her.
If the polls shows that he is in the lead it is because the people are starting to see the light that glows around Obama, the man has back bone & spirit enough to carry us into a new era of Government, which is what is needed & the need is now.

We don`t need this kind of Indecisiveness.
How can you say you have experience when you just FLIP FLOP all over the place like this?

Obama has my vote................OBAMA '08
Obama doesn't have a chance. While he is polling well, he is still not tested as a national candidate. If he does pull ahead in any way - he'll blow it.
Sean, Boston, MA (Sent Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:12 PM)

Agreed Sean. Obama will blow it the moment Republicans focus on him. Republicans have been focussing on Hillary for last 15 years and she is still standing and fighting against them. Whatever the Republicans tried on Hillary, they failed except spread unsubstantiated rumors. Obama's triangulation on Social Security, Iran, Drivers License, etc will be exposed in a nasty way by Republicans. I dont know why Hillary doesnt get nasty and expose the triangulations but thats her choice.

But hey we lost 2000 due to internal fighting within Democrats and got Bush. Now we will get Rudy & Huckabee in 2008:-). Obama has divided the Democrats enough to esnure we fail again.

8 more years of Republicans due to Obama? Think!
members of the media, except for those that are openly supporting her, along with many other democrats, and of course many republicans (though, not all) have fallen prey, and now use as their own, to the media/republican spin that hillary is dishonest, cannot be trusted, is corrupt (as john edwards accused her during the debates, after which she smacked him silent) etc. etc....all those years of intensive investigation by the media, repulicans, and other lunatic clinton haters, produced nothing in the way of criminality, dishonesty, etc. but, those that can be spoon-fed, buy into those erroneous stereotypes that have been around for years. all the hysterical hating of hillary does not make sense, though I can see how certain types might be swayed by the stale stereotypes and assumptions about her. my initial interest was in obama, but, since the debates, it has become clear that he just isnt ready. he is too idealistic and we really dont know how well he would do as president. we cannot afford a two-year training curve. his contention that he would from the get-go meet with the worst dictators in the world is refective of the idealism (and nievety)that he would bring to the oval office. yes, it would be nice if we could trust everyone and then just all get a long. things just aren't that way....certainly not now thanks to bush. so, give me tough, pragmatic, smart, and inclusive hillary any day.
Obama doesn't have a chance. While he is polling well, he is still not tested as a national candidate. If he does pull ahead in any way - he'll blow it.

Sean, Boston, MA (Sent Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:12 PM)

If he hasn't been tested, then how can you be so sure that he will blow it? It seems to me that if he hasn't been tested, you wouldn't know how he would do if he pulled ahead.

Reality is fascinating.
CitizenJ (Sent Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:24 PM)

CitizenJ,

Would you take a FDA certified product or a non-tested cheap imitation from Mexico?

You point is correct that if he isnt tested how are we sure about him. Well that's my problem with Obama. I am completely unsure about him. If he didnt play the holier than thou card and continued playing Republican style character assasination, I would have been fine with him. But he talks something and does something.

If I say CitizenJ lies and then I lie myself, what value do I have in my own eyes or your eyes? Think, CitizenJ, dont blindly support someone who preaches but doesnt act the same way.

If you are a real follower of Obama, you know changed his positions 3 times on Social Security this year. Isnt that a poll driven election year strategy?
January 4, 2008
Hillary press conference:
We really didn't want to win Iowa.  We didn't really spend any money or time in Iowa. Iowa isn't really that important.  The people DO love Hillary, uhhh, maybe in New Hampshire???
Obama/Webb '08!
Let me get this straight...the only polls with validity are the ones showing Hillary in the lead?  Desperate measures by a seemingly desperate campaign.  I guess it will take an Obama to clean up Washington DC
There will be "Hell To Pay" if Mrs. William Jefferson Clinton does not win Iowa. Spin garu or not, if that
B*** loses, Penn will be shopping for another job.
CitizenJ,

Would you take a FDA certified product or a non-tested cheap imitation from Mexico?

You point is correct that if he isnt tested how are we sure about him. Well that's my problem with Obama. I am completely unsure about him. If he didnt play the holier than thou card and continued playing Republican style character assasination, I would have been fine with him. But he talks something and does something.

If I say CitizenJ lies and then I lie myself, what value do I have in my own eyes or your eyes? Think, CitizenJ, dont blindly support someone who preaches but doesnt act the same way.

If you are a real follower of Obama, you know changed his positions 3 times on Social Security this year. Isnt that a poll driven election year strategy?

Simon, Iowa (Sent Tuesday, November 20, 2007 12:51 PM)

Simon,

Your comparing Obama to an untested cheap imitation from Mexico exposes your inability to create relevant analagies. Obama isn't some import, he is a highly qualified presidential candidate.

If you don't think he's been tested enough, and you are unsure about him, then don't vote for him. That's why we have more than one candidate. Nobody is making you like him.

As for your accusations of "flip-flopping" on Social Security, it is clear that you don't understand the irony of your argument, as it has been documented that Clinton has said two different things about the Social Security cap.

I also find it interesting that you accuse me of blindly supporting Obama. Unless you are posting under a different name than you used to, you have been posting on this board for a maximum of 2 weeks. Therefore, you have clearly missed posts I have made regarding my feelings and reasons for supporting Obama.

I would suggest you learn more about a person's tendencies before you accuse them of blind support. I wonder if you have thought it possible that people have different priorities when choosing a candidate.
Simon, Iowa,

It seems all I hear from you is whinny. Let’s debate the issue and stop shouting the talking point.

Let’s face it Hillary Clinton is not the leader we wanted in the white house. A leader without a character and Principle is not fit to be the commander in chief.  She is poll centric and we don’t even know if she shares our value.

Obama is the most consistent candidate in the Democratic race. He is consistent on Iraq, immigration, Social Security, Iran, NAFTA and Foreign policy.

Hillary has flip flopped on NAFTA, Foreign Policy, Iraq, Iran and finally on social security. She is the only candidate that has private and public position.

Even her supporter does not know where she stands on issues. The last time I checked, she was the main cheerleader on NAFTA but flip flop when she need labor union endorsement. She is the main engineer of No Child Left Behind (as a first lady in Arkansas) but back away from it when it is unpopular. Do you call that leadership?

I found an interesting story in the New York Post...

Hillary was trying to sound like Al Gore in her global warming speeches and telling Americans about cutting their carbon inprints or some garbage like that.....

Then I found this story....


May 2, 2007 -- WASHINGTON - Jet-setting Democratic presidential front-runner Hillary Rodham Clinton is a fussy frequent flier who used three different planes in a single day during a recent campaign swing through South Carolina.

The former first lady even grounded one aircraft - a chartered Gulfstream II - in Columbia, S.C., last Friday, demanding a swankier Gulfstream III replacement for a flight out west.

"She didn't like the configuration of the cabin," an aviation source familiar with Clinton's travel told The Post.

And that was after the Gulfstream II pilot dropped Sen. Clinton off at the bustling commercial terminal rather than the secluded area for private planes, sources told The Post.

The Gulfstream III charter had to be scrambled from Westchester County to swoop into South Carolina and carry Clinton off to San Diego for the start of a two-day fund-raising trip to California, flight records show.

Clinton's campaign did not immediately comment yesterday.

Clinton's jet-capades began when she hopped aboard a Gulfstream II on Thursday afternoon that ferried her from Washington to Orangeburg for the first Democratic presidential debate at South Carolina State University.

That same plane brought her back to Washington that night, arriving just after 11:30 p.m., and then was sent back, with no passengers, 46 minutes later to await Clinton's arrival back in South Carolina the next afternoon.

On Friday, she used a Hawker 800 private jet owned by the New York investment firm Gilder Gagnon Howe for a morning flight to Greenville, S.C., from Washington, after an 8 a.m. address at a New York teachers' association gathering.

From Greenville, Clinton hopped back aboard the Gulfstream II for the 25-minute flight to Columbia before swapping it for the Gulfstream III.

Clinton soared across California in the Gulfstream III over the weekend, hopping from San Diego to San Jose, then over to Reno, Nev., and back to Van Nuys, Calif., before heading home to Westchester County - arriving early Monday morning.

It's not clear how much the charters cost.

Presidential campaigns can pay as much as $9,000 for a charter flight, but get a break when borrowing a corporate jet - like Clinton did with the Hawker 800.

That's because ethics laws allow candidates to pay the aircraft's owner only the equivalent of first-class airfare.

Clinton, who has warned against global warming from the stump and hyped the need for alternative energy such as ethanol, burned through thousands of gallons of jet fuel swooping along the campaign trail - and it's not clear why she sent an empty plane to wait for her in South Carolina then flew a different jet from Washington the next day.

Clinton kept her feet on terra firma yesterday, but was basking in the glow of megastar Bono, the U2 frontman and global activist who joined with Clinton to push for improved educational opportunities for kids in impoverished countries.

Meanwhile, Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama (Ill.) agreed yesterday to participate in a June 3 Democratic debate in New Hampshire.

Former Sen. John Edwards (N.C.) and second-tier candidates Sen. Chris Dodd (Conn.), Sen. Joe Biden (Del.) and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson had already signed on.

I find it interesting that she tells Americans to cut their energy usage, yet she uses jets that dump thousands of pounds of thrust up in the air.

Another reason why Hillary Clinton can't seem to get her facts right......
A sign of just how desperate things are in Obamaland: One state poll shows him with a lead within the margin of error and this is good news?

I would hate to see their definition of bad news. How about the double digit lead Hillary has in every other state and national poll?  


A sign of just how desperate things are in Obamaland: One state poll shows him with a lead within the margin of error and this is good news?

I would hate to see their definition of bad news. How about the double digit lead Hillary has in every other state and national poll?  



csh, IL (Sent Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:21 PM"

This shows how desperate the Clinton supporters are. One thing to bear in mind. It starts just by one step and then two and then three....and shwooosh!..Hillary falls. Voters are starting to see through her. Obama has said from the beginning. He was not gonna peak early and he knows when voters start listening. He said he will take the campaign at his own pace and he seems like he knew what he was doing. Hillary is not invincible any more. KABOOM!!!


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