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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC Political Researcher



Solid versus soft support

Posted: Thursday, December 06, 2007 3:06 PM by Mark Murray

From NBC's Chuck Todd and Mark Murray
Earlier today, we noted the Washington Post/ABC poll that has Clinton with just a six-point lead over Obama in New Hampshire (35%-29%) -- but with more solid support than her rival from Illinois. One of the reasons for Clinton's more solid support, we speculated, is due to the fact that Obama's base in New Hampshire comes from independents, while Clinton's comes from rank-and-file Democrats.

But Democratic pollster Thomas Riehle, who isn't affiliated with any of the presidential campaigns, offers another view. "Candidates who are gaining support or losing support both tend to have a lot of soft support along a hierarchical vote continuum," he emails First Read. "Supporters have either just arrived from undecided and arrive as soft supporters, or supporters are preparing to depart to undecided, and soft support is the way station. That's why a lot of Obama support would be soft support.
 
"Candidates who have gained and held support for a while, or who have already lost a lot of support, both would show a large proportion of strong supporters -- either because soft supporters gained earlier have been locked in as strong supporters after a period of time, or because all that's left after a bad stretch are hard-core supporters.
 
"Obama's not necessarily weaker, because the proportion of his support that is soft is larger than the proportion of Clinton vote that is soft. Obama might be stronger, if his high proportion of soft support is simply an indicator that momentum is on his side -- that is, if he is able to start converting soft supporters to strong supporters while at the same time continuing to pipeline undecideds into the soft support category. Clinton might be approaching a point where she is left with only hard-core supporters and no pipeline of undecideds into her soft support category. Time will tell!"

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What a pantload.   We are parsing 1 poll.   One single poll that may very well be an outlier.  

"Obama might be stronger."  Sheesh.  I "might" be the man on the moon.

Why not put the polls side by side.  Marist had a poll out yesterday as well.   Lets look at ALL the polls.   Lets look at all the polls over the past couple weeks.  Why waste out time cherry picking one single poll?

Sometimes I think journos are rushing too quick to the bar or to find a tv camera somewhere to put their mug in front of to do a decent job anymore.
Clinton leads Obama 37%-23% according to a just released Marist poll that ended on Dec. 2, I believe.

That is strong support ... for Clinton.

As I pointed out before this isn't the first time the ABC / WaPost poll has had some very good numbers for Obama that don't jive with other polls, or the polling averages.
Very interesting insight about polling, esp for a political junkie. Thanks. Wonder what pollster.com will say?

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC,

Why don't you just relax? Like i have said in the past, the person that has the best strategy will win the nomination. No offense to Madame Clinton, her strategist is bogus at this point.
Planted character attacks, doing anything to get elected just won't do in this election. Triangulating and poll-driven contradictory non-statements just won't do.

Polarizing the electorate by sending hate-mail in Iowa just won't do. We need a large majority to pass healthcare. Demonizing everyone who disagrees with you and returning to the partisan fights of the 1990s will send America backwards.

The Democrats have made the biggest changes in history, not by going with the safe candidate but by embracing bold new ideas, like Kennedy and Bill Clinton did. We need to fight the real axes of evil, that JFK outlines as tyranny, disease, poverty and war itself.

I'm looking forward to watching Obama become the leader of the free world.
She has the establishment support - which goes a long way. Lot's of nominees have lost Iowa or NH.
If you go to Real Clear Politics: Obama's in the lead in Iowa (they aggreage a number of polls) and the trend lines favor him there and in New Hampshire.

So there is real evidence that he has mommentum on his side with only a handful of days left to campaign til the Jan. 3rd cacuses. So it's not locked, but it's looking better and better his chances to win Iowa and walk in to New Hampshire with a good table to try and run the five days in between the cacus and primary.

Ok now that HRC is loosing ground, they come out with all the reasons why`s, what`s, & when`s.
Boy if you people don`t get your act together we are just going to stop paying attention to you all.
This another attempt to play down the rising numbers that Obama is getting in the polls lately.

Come on guys stop dancing to HRC song and let the
candidates duke it out.

When HRC was in the lead I didn`t see any of the reasons that are stated in this post about her soft SOLID VERSUS SOFT SUPPORT.
What is this but more of the HRC trying to get us on her side.
It wont work, I`ll never vote for a clinton and especially HRC, she is not trust worthy and can`t keep a promise, a fraud.
15 years of dishonesty, scandal and divisiveness is enough if not too much for us to swallow anymore.


Obama 08'
Dickie Flatts, The Abc Poll is not the only recent one from New Hampshire showing Clinton's lead slipping into single digits.  A Rasmussen poll released within the past day or two put the margin between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama at seven (32 to 25).  ABC's poll is not an "outlier" as it jives with the recent Rasmussen poll.
The actual voting is the only "polling" that ultimately matters.  I pray everyone votes for the candidate he or she truly believes in regardless of what the polls allegedly reflect.  I pray that all the votes will be counted accurately.  If those things occur, let the chips fall where they may and let the results speak for themselves.
While we are speaking of recent polls --- Rasmussen released a poll today showing that Senator Clinton's once 13 point lead in South Carolina has slipped to just 2 points over Senator Obama(34 to 32), and Strategic Vision has released a poll today showing that Senator Obama has opened up a 7 point lead over Senator Clinton in Iowa (32 to 25).  
I always thought that Clinton had a ceiling. We may see what that ceiling is in the next couple of months as candidates drop out and undecided voters weigh in. Hillary may be left with core supporters and nothing more. I wonder if she can get 50%.
Clinton leads Obama 37%-23% according to a just released Marist poll that ended on Dec. 2, I believe.

That is strong support ... for Clinton.

As I pointed out before this isn't the first time the ABC / WaPost poll has had some very good numbers for Obama that don't jive with other polls, or the polling averages.

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC

The reasons none of the polls match, is because ALL IOWA  caucus polling, except those using the VAN  (the list of 04 caucus goers), which only the campaigns have, are statistically invalid. When two polls are done at the same time by reputably polling companies, and the numbers for several candidates aren't even within the margin of error in the other poll, it's clear the polling is worthless.
Dickie, If First read has said Obama is awful and Hillary is great..then would you be happy?
This is a good article that shows various potential reasons for the polling. Why not cut the vitriolic responses. Just because an article isn't a glowing report on the person that you happen to back doesn't mean it is not worthwhile. Save the responses like that for when there is real bias shown in reports or mistakes have been made. Otherwise, it becomes like the boy who cried wolf (no joke about Blitzer intended).
Lookie here it is again..hillaryclinton.com
murray: why not just replace your picture on the side-bar with a "vote obama" poster and get it over with. unbiased journalism, what a laugh.
Excellent analysis by an unaffiliated Democratic strategist.

(Followed by a worthless, biased analysis by a blithering partisan who posts the first two replies - seriously, why should any reader take the comments of posters like Dickie Flatts, Tuck, Susan, Chuck, and Pat seriously when they haven't been able to write a single comment on the primary that wasn't filled with  pointed and vitriolic hatred towards Barack Obama; you guys are about as reliable a source on Obama as Dick Morris is on Hillary, and I just wonder how many of you will be on suicide watch should Obama win the nomination.)
Does Thomas Riehle get paid to state the obvious? If not..I need his job.
redshirt, you noticed?

yesterday they did a full article on a typo by the Clinton campaign..

geez
Bee, not sure you should be telling someone to relax. Your messages are so filled with vitriol. I am surprised you haven't noted that you are voting for Obama and that if he doesn't get the nomination you will vote for the republican.
I remember months and months of people here critisizing the media for being too pro-Clinton. (I was one of those by the way.) Now I hear that they are too pro-Obama. Sorry Chuck and Mark...I guess you can't please them all. I guess in the long run, you can't please anybody. My take is the critisizing just shows how this campaign is soooo important to the voters. At the very least, you give us an outlet to vent...and I thanks you for that.
Chill out Dickie......

Obama Rocks!!! 08

BarackTheVote!!
I think Mark Penn's poll on going with the Kindergarten story was an "outlier".
Off shore betting odds are still on Hill for the nomination
Hillary: 2 to 9
Obama: 10 to 3
...and for winning:
Hillary: 4 to 6
Rudi: 9 to 2
Oprahma: 9 to 2
Flip Romney: 8 to 1

Lewis in Cincy --

I hate shoddy poll analysis.  Turn on the tv open the paper it is everywhere.  How often have to seen someone compare the results of one poll to another or totally blow the meaning of the MOE.  

That is what gets me.  Not the numbers.   Sure I detest Obama, but its not that he trails by 6 points or 12 points that get be riled up.  It is people who are paid to cover politics and who don't understand polling.
i just hope that the people in here that are serious about change and truly want to change the course of this country are intellectual and dedicated enough to support the winner so dem's and independent's will have a stronger majority in washington to effect change. i'm independent and undecided, but one thing i am not doing. i am not voting republican.
Al -- I actually think the press does deliberately switch from pro-Candidate A to pro-Candidate B. They are desperate for a close race. I'm an Obama supporter and all I could do was say Thanks when they went completely overboard about Clinton's Philly debate performance. I thought, finally, an opening for Obama (who had been beat up in the press for months, for equally specious reasons). Just watch, they won't let Huckabee skate for long, and Obama is sure to be in for a final hit or two from the media before the Iowa caucus. They want a dead heat on the morning of Jan 3.

Basically, they're saying that the race is very fluid and too close to call.  People are starting to pay attention to the candidates more closely. Hillary's so-called inevitability is just garbage.  Forget the "national polls", the early states will determine the nominee. It seems to me that Hillary and her supporters will live and die by the "polls".
"Time will tell!", your breathless, panting, final line is the only thing worth taking from an interview with someone who knows as much about what he's talking/speculating/BSing about as anyone on the street. The one thing that is for certain is that this analysis will be rendered even more worthless with tomorrow's polling. How does that brilliant analysis explain Huckabee? His support didn't float in the limbo of undecided before going for him, they just SWITCHED. The, "expert", would need to have a wholly different rationale to explain the same phenomena, for the same RACE, which is why the only intelligent thing in your article is that, "Time will tell!"




Van
instead of micro-analyzing mark penn's recently purchased poll numbers maybe we could mention some of the candidates plans, if they have any, but wait since edwards has the best plans it would tarnish the medias anointed novelty candidates, never mind, how silly of me, back to the mark penn poll numbers by all means
Wonder if Ms. Psychic Mary has anything to say about this?  Anyone heard from her lately?  Seems like she quit posting just after the debate where former Senator Edwards pointed out Senator Clinton's inconsistent answers regarding the possibility of issuing DLs for aliens in the country illegally.  Ms. Psychic Mary, do you have anything to add to this discussion?  
Lewis in Cincy --

I hate shoddy poll analysis.  Turn on the tv open the paper it is everywhere.  How often have to seen someone compare the results of one poll to another or totally blow the meaning of the MOE.  

That is what gets me.  Not the numbers.   Sure I detest Obama, but its not that he trails by 6 points or 12 points that get be riled up.  It is people who are paid to cover politics and who don't understand polling.
Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC (Sent Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:46 PM)

---------------------------------------------------
Dickie...you can blame Mark Penn and the other Clinton-aligned pollsters for their unscientific, garbage push-polling data.  From Day One of Hillary's campaign, Penn et al have tried to create a false sense of inevitability by conducting these "national polls".  Yet, many respected political scientists have doubted these polls.  You tell me, how can you have a true picture of who's leading with a sample size of 400 people ?
cms - you are so right about the press wanting a dead heat. Even Jack Caffrety said last night on CNN that they love a good fight.
Has no one noticed that on the RCP poll composite a new poll in Iowa puts Obama at 32% and Clinton and Edwards at 25%?  Isn't this beyond the margin of error?  Why is this not getting any press?  Is it because it's Strategic Vision?  Just curious...

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/ia/iowa_democratic_caucus-208.html
soft support,solid support......blah, blah, blah, blah

just another insignificant poll.

Let's just wait till the ACTUAL votes are counted!!!
Shadow:

Why do you not include Sierra and Bee in that statement?  You want to talk about "pointed and vitriolic hatred" you need look no further as they devote post after post to the same regarding Hillary.
>> Lookie here it is again..hillaryclinton.com

I did look. Porn. Really, really bad porn.
Bee, not sure you should be telling someone to relax. Your messages are so filled with vitriol. I am surprised you haven't noted that you are voting for Obama and that if he doesn't get the nomination you will vote for the republican

----------------------------------------------------

I was an independent before Obama enter the race and if he wins, I’ll be happy. But if he ends up not getting the nomination, I’ll remain an independent shopping again.

I know i don't see myself voting for Hillary Clinton.

Every time I look at Hillary, I get soft. Is that what you're talking about?
MK, while Edwards might have the most detailed domestic plans, electing a president cannot be just about that. Obama offers a clear and fresh alternative. While Edwards's focus on poverty is admirable his focus is too narrow. He is a good guy who never followed the intellectual side of the law, never became interested in the underlying core backbone a president needs to have.

That's why his judgment has been suspect, when it came to the Iraq war, nuclear waste in the Yucca mountain, Alaska drilling and NAFTA.

Edwards lacks the deep understanding of a liberal core, he just engages in populist policy propositions.  He is great but will remain a successful trial lawyer, not a person who can shape events or the law as such.

I hope Edwards's supporters aren't offended by this characterizations they aren't attacks. But I just don't buy the idea that he just somehow saw the light and realized that so many of his votes were on the wrong side of the issues.

What was his understanding of the world when he became W's poster child for the Iraq war? I don't want to hear that he made a mistake, I knew that then. Why did he decide like that?

Why did he decide to vote conservative in so many ways? Because he lacks understanding of the unified core principles of progressivism.
Political wire shows clinton and Obama tied with Obama now leading Clinton in african american support 51 to 27.
I'd say the whole trending is showing clinton sliding.  She hit her ceiling and now voters are shifting around.
It did not help her that she has made some really dumb mistakes lately with Obama coming off as the more mature and presidential of the two.
Obama vs Clinton, Clinton vs Obama, Edwards vs Clinton, etc. Meanwhile, Shrewd Rudy is on the outside drooling while this goes on. He has to  think to himself,'Go ahead you jerks, beat each other up day in and day out,the more you do this the less time you will spend trying to find out about me".
TO CLINTON'S SUPPORTERS:
I have one question, and one question only.
Before the question, here is the preamble;
The Michigan Democratic Party moved their primary way ahead.  We all know this.   Every Democratic candidate vowed not to campaign there unless they stop their decision.  Obama, Edwards, and Richardson all agree to pull their names off of the ballots.
The Michigan Democratic party goes ahead with their plans, and now has Hillary Clinton running practically by herself.   Kucinich and Gravel don't count as opposition.

My question to all true supporters of Hillary Clinton, and please make an effort to answer this truthfully;
Why do you think Hillary Clinton refused to withdraw her name from the Michigan primary?
Dickie, I agree that you have to look at the aggregate.  That aggregate (at RCP) shows Obama +2 in Iowa, and Hillary's lead in single digits in NH after having dropped 10% in the last few weeks.
it reminds me of the topic in the following lecture;

http://forum.wgbh.org/wgbh/forum.php?lecture_id=3740

Election '08: Media Report Card
Emily Rooney, host, Greater Boston
Tom Ashbrook, host, OnPoint
Jeff Greenfield, reporter, media critic
Barney Frank, congessman, D-MA

Twenty years ago on the eve of the 1988 election, PBS aired a series of programs on the role of the press in presidential politics. Noted politicians and members of the media debated what was being covered and why, and asked several key questions. What information about a candidate is relevant to a presidential run? Should personal information become public? What does the public have the right to know and why? The format was a roundtable discussion involving noted politicians and journalists. As we approach the 2008 presidential election, Greater Boston asks similar questions about how and what the media is covering. WGBH-TV and WBUR Radio, in partnership with Boston University, are combining their resources and expertise to evaluate media coverage of the '08 race. In doing so, they bring together an esteemed group of panelists, including some of the same people who appeared on that first PBS forum.
Al -- I actually think the press does deliberately switch from pro-Candidate A to pro-Candidate B. They are desperate for a close race. I'm an Obama supporter and all I could do was say Thanks when they went completely overboard about Clinton's Philly debate performance. I thought, finally, an opening for Obama (who had been beat up in the press for months, for equally specious reasons). Just watch, they won't let Huckabee skate for long, and Obama is sure to be in for a final hit or two from the media before the Iowa caucus. They want a dead heat on the morning of Jan 3.


cms (Sent Thursday, December 06, 2007 4:56 PM)


CMS - I understand what you are saying even though I am on the other side as a Hillary supporter.

I think what you said shows what is wrong with American journalists. They are useless paid people to fool simple minded people.

Look at Chris Matthews. Will he ever remorse that he is an irresponsible journalist? The way he picked on Al Gore on flimsy matters but praised Bush. Look what has happened to the country after that. Sensational journalism should be banned because they just live for their pockets.

I wonder how much money they will take to their grave.
She has the establishment support - which goes a long way. Lot's of nominees have lost Iowa or NH.

Sean

Actually few Democrats have lost both Iowa and New Hampshire. Other than Bill Clinton in 1992 I don't there is one, and 1992 was an * year, because Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin ran, and the entire field stayed out of Iowa, so really Clinton only lost NH.

Also, if being the establishment candidate meant squat  Howard Dean would have been the nominee. How many states did he win?
Thank God for vanreuter. So true! Never mind all the bickering between Obama and Clinton fans, that's exactly what I was thinking when reading this.  I could write a pagelong BS article hypothesizing about twelve different things the numbers might mean too. Let me just throw in that Obama is the man (sorry, it couldn't be stopped)
There's still a lot of time for things to happen. Wasn't it about this time four years ago that Kerry started climbing out of single digits in Iowa?

Iowa is very difficult to poll, and New Hampshire is moderately difficult because of the independents.

Plus the task of polling itself is more difficult than a few years ago, I think. Polling requires people on the other end of the landline. Maybe my situation is unusual, but I'd say about a quarter of the households I know, between adult friends and families of my kids' classmates, don't have that kind of phone anymore.

Trend lines are helpful, because they show direction of movement. But direction doesn't tell us everything when we don't know how accurate the baseline is.


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