First thoughts: Last IA debate

Posted: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 9:13 AM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under: First Thoughts

From Chuck Todd, Mark Murray and Domenico Montanaro
DES MOINES, IA -- The seemingly endless debate parade of 2007 began -- on the Republican side -- at the Reagan Library in California, underneath Reagan's own Air Force One. It took us to Columbia, SC (where the GOP candidates sparred for the first time), to Manchester, NH (where audio/lightning troubles allowed Rudy to joke, after receiving a question on abortion and Catholic faith, that perhaps God was trying to punish him), and then to here in Des Moines (where Brownback -- remember him? -- targeted Romney on abortion). It continued on to the economic debate in Dearborn, MI (where Thompson made his first appearance), to Orlando, FL, then to St. Petersburg, FL for the YouTube debate, and then the Spanish-language one on Univision last Sunday. Now it's come to this: the final Republican debate before the Iowa caucuses; the Democrats have theirs here tomorrow. And with all of the cable news networks carrying this debate live, what would have been an under-watched afternoon affair in Iowa is perhaps turning into the most important debate of the cycle.

*** Last Dance … Last Chance: Today's 90-minute debate here -- featuring Giuliani, Huckabee, Hunter, McCain, Paul, Romney, Tancredo, and Thompson --begins at 2:00 pm ET. It's hosted by the Des Moines Register and Iowa Public Television, and it's moderated by Carolyn Wasburn, the Register's editor. The debate comes as Huckabee has jumped into the lead in Iowa and is now statistically tied with Giuliani in some recent national polls; after the press has begun to scrutinize his record and past statements (on Dumond, clemency, AIDS, and religion); after Romney -- obviously reacting to Huck's poll surge -- started airing the first negative TV ad of the race; after Giuliani's appearance on Meet the Press, in which NBC's Tim Russert grilled him over the personal ("Drivin Miss Judi") and personnel (Bernie Kerik); as Thompson has virtually disappeared in the polls and news; and as McCain keeps trucking along in this unsettled GOP race, after being given up for dead months ago. Romney gave a pretty good preview of how he plans to go after Huckabee in interviews on TODAY and Morning Joe, but who else will go after Huckabee? Thompson? Will Giuliani and McCain, the two candidates who stand to benefit the most from a Huck win in Iowa, end up an ally of the Arkansan?

*** Battling over the E-word: How do you define electability? It's an important question if one is to understand yesterday’s skirmish between the Clinton and Obama camps. If you define it as having the toughness and the skill to beat back the so-called GOP machine, as well as having strength in the few key battleground states (particularly Florida), then Clinton has the strongest case. If you define it, however, as having the most growth potential and best ability to win non-traditional swing voting groups, Obama probably wins here. Or if you define electability by the polls right now, then Edwards is the guy. Now each campaign will push back on the others’ claims to electability: Clinton foes will say she can only win a general election with 271 electoral votes and 50%+1; Obama foes will argue that if he faces Giuliani in the general, he'll be forced to defend turf in the Northeast that Clinton wouldn't have to; and Edwards foes will say he's taken too many liberal positions to look mainstream by the fall. Who's right? It’s the -- cue the Survivor music -- Eye of the Supporter....

*** What, me worry? Regardless of how one defines electability, does anyone get the sense that Team Clinton is feeling the pressure? Yesterday, it held a hastily arranged conference call with reporters, seizing on a 1996 Obama questionnaire (displaying his liberal positions on abortion, guns, and health care)

that a rival campaign gave to the Politico (there are more questionnaires out there, by the way, which aren't flattering for Obama). Then came news, via the Huffington Post, that Clinton allies are quietly raising the issue of Obama’s past cocaine use. And today, three stories are giving Howard Wolfson and company PR headaches: 1) the New York Daily News is reporting that Bill Clinton is upset with the direction of the campaign; the piece is even complete with Bubba yelling at Penn (apparently not true) and staff shakeup rumors which Hillary herself,denies; 2) the New York Times dissects Clinton's Iowa campaign and reports that Camp Clinton knows going after Obama is risky in Iowa because it could help Edwards but they'd rather have Edwards win than Obama; and 3) the AP reports on "Plan B" which is the Clinton comeback strategy in New Hampshire should they lose Iowa to Obama.

*** So why hit the panic button? For all this negative Clinton talk, remember that she still has huge advantages: She leads the national polls (check out today’s Washington Post/ABC survey); she has most of the Democratic establishment behind her; and she has more money than her team knows what to do with. So why is her campaign allowing reporters to get the impression that it’s panicking with 22 days to go until Iowa? Maybe it's not anyone on the campaign, maybe it's all those backseat drivers who can claim to be close to the "Clintons," plural.

*** The buck stops here? Speaking of that 1996 questionnaire, the Obama campaign responded that he didn’t fill it out; his campaign manager did. This isn’t the first time that Obama or his campaign has thrown staff under the bus (remember the Punjab oppo memo?) in the face of adversity.

*** GOP sweeps special doubleheader: Last night, Republicans decisively won the special congressional elections in Ohio and Virginia. Both were GOP-held seats in districts where Bush took about 60% of the vote in 2000 and 2004. Nevertheless, Democrats invested in the Ohio race, forcing their GOP counterparts -- and also the Republican special interest group Freedom’s Watch -- to play as well.

*** On the trail: Elsewhere, Clinton, in New Jersey, attends a Countdown to ’08 celebration with Tony Bennett, Gov. Jon Corzine, and Sen. Bob Menendez; Edwards stumps all day in Iowa; Giuliani visits with supporters in West Des Moines after the debate and then holds a town hall in Cedar Rapids; McCain also campaigns in Iowa after the debate; Obama is in Chicago; Richardson is in Iowa, where he holds a conservation on jobs and the economy; Romney stumps in Marion and Johnstown after the debate; and Thompson drops by a debate-watch party.

Countdown to Iowa: 22 days
Countdown to New Hampshire: 27 days
Countdown to Michigan: 34 days
Countdown to Nevada and SC GOP primary: 38 days
Countdown to SC Dem primary: 45 days
Countdown to Florida: 48 days
Countdown to Tsunami Tuesday: 55 days
Countdown to Election Day 2008: 328 days
Countdown to Inauguration Day 2009: 405 days

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Comments

Sweetie VAN, the name is Freeman Female and always has been. Pure and Simple.
I dont' need to take a another identity to post my thoughts. And you are one hypocrite because you do the same.

As I said, YOU are getting NASTIER AND NASTIER as your favorite drops in the poll just like I said you would.

You will stop posting Actual POLL NUMBERS when Clinton starts losing her lead just Like I SAID YOU WOULD.

When all the normal polls you were posting five months change their tune to OBAMA instead of Clinton then you will use FALSE misleading polls just LIKE I SAID YOU WOULD.

As Clinton fades when the actual Votes are placed (which is better than a poll) You will DISAPPEAR from this blog JUST LIKE I SAID YOU WOULD.

FREEMAN FEMALE, DALLAS, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 11:56 AM)

The Establishment is so PISSED off at Barack for continuing the Awakening of N0V-2006. Damn him for giving the American voter the chance to take back this country before the Establishment can recklessly piss away all that this country stood for for over 200 years.The Establishment, thru there backing of Hillary has tryed & tryed to shake this man from the Voter's. So far. he has SMACKED them down every step of the way.He has already shown US, YOU KNOW THE VOTER'S, he has what it takes to be POTUS.Beware Barack, do NOT let your guard down for 1 second, We, the Voter's are depending on YOU to be OUR leader against the Good Ole Boys club. STAY STRONG, BE KEEN, we will be your defense as You continue the Offensive against the Establishment.

Dickie Flats & all the other Hillary supporter's, get ready, for an Ass-Whooping, there is No stopping this thing. Get on board!!!!!!!!!

" DELUSIONAL THINKING BY COMMON SENSE AMERICAN'S IS OVER"

Rick,ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 11:59 AM)

No I don't think there will be much of a race at all, and Hillary will have the nomination sewed up on Tsunami Tuesday. I think senator Obama is a good man and will be a major force in the democratic party for decades to come, and could be president someday.
Thanks for asking.

Van

-------------------------------------------------
Common Van, you've got to admit that this race is not going to be decided on Super Tuesday. All bets are off on Hillary at this point and the moment she goes negative on Obama, count the election lost for her.

Many African American she is banking on are shifting their allegiance. If I were her, I’ll be negotiating for the position of Vice President…lol...

Obama is an American darling. Everybody loves him including some of his foes except for Hillary.

Bee, NH (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:00 PM)

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:00 PM)

Van, maybe you should be asking your candidate to disclose, Why, way back in 1968 or 1972, she went & interned for a known Communist. Has barack or anyone else running against her, brought That to the forefront. No, Not Yet!!! In Politics, nothing is ever hidden forever. Some say, how will Barack ever stand up to the GOP. The better question is, If she can't beat Barack, then how in the heck can she ever hope to defeat the GOP? The trend's are looking like she won't Ever get the chance. THANK GOD!!!!!!

BTW : Barack has beaten back EVERY attack with his WIT. The American voter likes that Positive attitude.

Rick,ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:12 PM)

In the interest of full Disclosure and I challenge my fellow posters to do the same. DON'T HIDE YOUR RECORDS and Have me Disclose Mine!!!

Freeman Female, Give us your history!!!

I am Freeman Female, living in Dallas, TX originally from a little town in Alabama on the Tennesse River. A black single woman, engineer, living in Dallas for the past 10 years.

Freeman Female, have you ever posted as anyone else in this blog?

ONCE, Yes, my first post, I used my authentic first name. I then changed to Freeman Female and all of my posts have been under that name. I swear.

Freeman Female, who is your candidate?

Obama, Obama, Obama - He is the most realistic of all the candidates. I believe he tells what he thinks of the issue even if it disagrees with others.

Freeman Female, do you work for any campaign?

No, I have never worked for any campaign in any paid aspect. I have given for the first time in my life to Obama in a Presidential election. The only other presidential campaign I have given to EVER is when I checked the box on my income tax to give $3 to the Federal Election Committee.

I did attend a Jimmy Carter Rally in Tuscumbia with my dad as a little kid. That is it.

Thanks everyone and VAN, for reading my full disclosure like my candidate, Barack Obama.
Anyone else?????

Enjoy!!!!!!!

Freeman Female, Dallas, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:18 PM)

FREEMAN FEMALE, DALLAS, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 11:56 AM)

Where are all the false polls? Come on JERRY, where are they? What's false here is you and your rantings.
No false polls? Post one. Post one or admit that you're not being honest in your rant. You won't, because you can't. It's a pretty silly premise to begin with, but one you must now either prove or retract, and that would take honesty and character.
What are the odds...

Van
(Bring on the false POLLS!)

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:18 PM)

Yo Van, when I meant personal I was speaking from a potentially confrontational standpoint. Obviously I was asking you for your opinion, but it was more about keeping it above board than getting into the childish banter that can happen here from time to time.

I see that your confidence is still very high about your girl Hillary, but you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time. The tide has turned and it'll be interseting to see how things pan out over the next 8-10 weeks.

Kristian O (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:19 PM)

Dicke Flatts: I live in a Democratic county in upstate NY and there are very few people who support Hillary up here (not a scientific study, purely an anecdotal observation by an anti-Hillary partisan). However, believe me when I tell you that the Republicans up here will dig up dead relatives to vote against Hillary and the Democrats either will not vote for her in the general or will be not very enthusiastic supporters. This myth about her great electability is just that, a myth. I truly don't understand why she generates such disdain from Republicans, but she does. And the Democrats I speak to (this is a University community) are much against her position on the war. Nostalgia for the 90's will not be enough to turn this election for her. I daresay that even Bill Clinton has tarnished his own reputation during this campaign, reminding people of his own inconsistancies and doublespeak; he should have let sleeping dogs lie.
Obama '08

Mitchell Feldman, Vestal, NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:24 PM)

Nashville:

The point is that, at least from what I have observed on here, Obama supporters are not willing to admit that he makes mistakes. They are not willing to admit that he has weaknesses. If you question anything that Obama does, you are wrong. All the time. There is always an excuse, always a justification and never a "yeah, he messed up."

There is always spin. Which is fitting, because after all, he plays the same game as everyone else. He just hasn't been playing long enough to come into the game with a lot of baggage.

Perhaps it is good that he runs now. The shorter the record, the easier it is. The more you have done, the longer you have been around, the easier it is to find reasons to not support you.

Carrie, Eastern Iowa (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:24 PM)

The actor also had some harsh words for Kucinich's frontrunning rival for the Democratic nomination, Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY). "Let's remind our friends in the social circles of New York and the highbrow winner-friendly and monied major cities that support Mrs. Clinton, that this is not Bill Clinton," he said, going on to praise the former president. But he warned that the same "personal agendas" that led to what he characterizes as poor policy decisions from the president could rub off on the former first lady.

"Don't underestimate the damage her poisonous ambition can do to this country," he said of Sen. Clinton. "We can't wait for the benefit of hindsight to service the benefit of Mrs. Clinton's career." Penn took another shot at Clinton while speaking about the recent Democratic debate in Las Vegas. "I found the debate infuriating, nearly an argument for fascism with few exceptions, key among them Dennis Kucinich," he said. "Of course as a strategic politician, Mrs. Clinton pulled out her set of Ginzu knives and dominated once again on 'centrist' political strategy."

I guess this means Sean Penn is not a fan of Hillary Clinton....

I heard the tape, sounded like Jeff Spicoli.....

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:24 PM)

Bee:

Pay attention, one last time.

I AM CAUCUSING FOR BIDEN.

I have said it repeatedly but you don't EVER pay attention to what anyone else says.

But between Clinton and Obama? You're right, I will take Clinton any day of the week.

And by the way, since you don't pay attention you have missed the fact that Biden has stated he will nto be anyone's SoS or VP. If you want Biden, it's gonna have to be at the top of the ticket.

Carrie, Eastern Iowa (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:26 PM)

http://www.nysun.com/article/66933

That is the link to the story Rick,ky is talking about.

Hmmm
I can see why the press left this story alone LOL.....

Goes to show that Hillary Clinton is a socialist...

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:27 PM)

Nashville fan

I admire Senator Obama, will support him happily if he wins the nomination, but there is a feeling within me, that urges caution when listening to him. Obivously, he has many of us dreaming about a better America, a more hopeful America, a "changed" America. Who wouldn't be inspired by his rhethoric? But when the adoring crowds go home, when the applause dies down, and when he sits in the oval office, he will have to be able to deliver on those promises. Will the established Washington element allow him to success to "change" the process? Does he have the experience and skill to work with that establishment to bring about a new order? Often good intentioned, well meaning newcomers, are suffocated by that establishment and find it difficult to change anything. Look at the newly electect Demoncratic Congress--so many of us hoped they would effect major changes especially with respect to the war in Iraq. But, the established Washington rules and insiders, made that impossible.

I suppose what I am saying is that I hope the spirit of change and hope that Senator Obama raises in his supports will not be dampened by the politics of reality and that his supporters will not be disillusioned.

Dot, Illlinois (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:33 PM)

After Hillary Clinton clerked in the summer of 1971 at an Oakland, Calif., law firm run by attorneys with ties to the Communist Party, she never returned to work there. But she stayed in touch with one of the firm's partners and his wife, and they stayed in touch with her, until they died. The decades-long correspondence illustrates the complicated relationship between Mrs. Clinton and radical activists who were often frustrated by the failure of Mrs. Clinton and her husband to side with them.

I can see why the DailyKOS people have problems with the Clinton's. The radical side of the demo's have always had problems with them.

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:36 PM)

"Van, maybe you should be asking your candidate to disclose, Why, way back in 1968 or 1972, she went & interned for a known Communist."

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the, "positive", spirit of the Obama campaign, Rick,ky. No slander too low, no lie beneath repeating, despite the origin or source.
To highlight the schizophrenia of this post; After opening with a slander from the ickiest depths of the right wing slime machine, one that is and has been discredited a dozen times over and presenting it as a FACT, with no attribution (Based on his own, "research(?)he doesn't even seem to know WHO, the alleged communist is, or even when the, "crime"(?)of interning occurred;"way back in 1968 or 1972..." or '65, or '78...) We get, "The American voter likes that Positive attitude." ?????????????????????????

I challenge you to produce documentation and source of your slander, Mr. Positive, or to admit that you are simply smearing Clinton with the kind of right wing dirty LIE, that all democrats will be subjected to in the GE and that no decent self-respecting democrat would attempt to pin on someone who just might be their party's nominee.

Yeah, everyone loves a positive attitude...

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:36 PM)

Goes to show that Hillary Clinton is a socialist...

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:27 PM)

What it shows, by your interest in the bogus story from the fringe paper , is that you're still sure that Clinton will be the nominee, otherwise you would be moving on to attack another democrat. Thanks for the support...

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:42 PM)

I challenge you to produce documentation and source of your slander.....

Van:

Scroll up a bit....
I put the link on the story of Hillary working for the communists....

Also there is a story about Bill and Hillary and their romance int he summer of 1971 when she was working for the commies....

And also a story about why Hillary and Bill have such a hard time with the DailyKOS crowd.....

For a guy who just loves his girl....
It's amazing how we have to educate you about her at times......

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:48 PM)

For Rick and Jerry and anyone else malicious or gullible enough to fall for their act.

In "Clinton Chapters" segment, Hannity omitted key points from journalist on whose reporting he based the segment

Summary: During a Hannity's America "Clinton Chapters" segment highlighting Hillary Clinton's alleged "connections with a communist law firm," host Sean Hannity omitted key points from reporting by The New York Sun's Josh Gerstein despite Hannity claiming his report was "based on reporting from ... Gerstein." Specifically, Hannity asserted that Jessica Mitford, the wife of one of the partners at the firm where Clinton held a summer internship, "decided to use her connection to the Clintons to get the state of Arkansas to drop the extradition or to completely pardon" an escaped fugitive after Bill Clinton had become Arkansas governor. But Hannity didn't note Gerstein's reporting that the Clintons rebuffed the request. Hannity also questioned whether Hillary Clinton had "sympathy with the Communist Party" in deciding to clerk at the firm but failed to note Gerstein's reporting quoting a partner in the law firm calling Clinton "much more of a classic liberal than the rest of us."

The rest of the long, long, list of lies, inaccuracies and willful misinterpretations that comprise the aritcle can be found here;

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712040010

and by a simple search on Goggle.

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:49 PM)

False Poll Alert and Disclosure

Van posted the Zogby poll when it showed Hillary in the lead. In previous posts in earlier months he said it was not a reliable poll.

True or False, Van???

I have also posted the poll that you dismissed earlier and then used at a later date.

I have done my full disclosure on myself, my records and my history of posting in First Read in my post above. Will you do the same or will you still get nastier?

The people are waiting. Mine is already in black and white.

Freeman Female, Dallas, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:56 PM)

Dot and Carrie,

Thanks for your thoughtful responses. I found a quote that pretty much sums up my feelings about the decision that is before us this campaign season.

"High achievement always takes place in the framework of high expectation. " - Charles Kettering

I'm tired of settling for the lesser of two evils. Things will never get better if we don't even try . . .

Nashville_fan (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:56 PM)

obama says his experience in foreign affars is partially from being educated overseas and hillary because she hung around the white house for 8 years! my questions are if where you were educated is experience why ain't i governor of n.y. or cal. as i went to school there and if coupling with bill at the white house is experience why isn't monica lewinski running for president because she had experience under bill!? just curious.

just curious (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:59 PM)

How can we chose Hillary? Oh, I don't know, maybe her strength, passion, not being Republican, married to Bill Clinton, not being Bush or related to him. Seems like a seriously obvious answer. Now the real question is, after years of being beaten down by the Republicans why in the serious (expletive) are democrats even mulling over the potential to nominate a man who's gonna say... okay, well you were the bad guys, but thats because you were in power - you're all forgiven. Oh, here Scooter Libby, I'll pardon you since Bush wouldn't. Republicans have done everything in their power to ruin any democrat there is even a remote scandal in reference to, and I'm voting for HIllary because payback is fair game. They've been marginalizing, demonizing, swift boating, and outright lying about my party's affiliation for far too long. I want Hillary to win if nothing more than to make Sierra and Jerry's heads explode.

Now, why are you considering voting for someone who's pledging to pull out of this bipartisan war first. Guarantee you, Obama wins Dem nomination, he loses, and badly. So let's really get to the main question, why are you helping the Republicans out by electing Obama.

Should this happen, and Hillary not win, I will, of course be exploiting my superiorty of intellect with my vote for Clinton. Stop picking the wrong choices - we did it with Kerry in 04, let's not be stupid enough to do the same thing 4 years later with Obama.

Travis, Louisville, Ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:00 PM)

Rick,ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:01 PM)

Now that Hillary's 20 point lead in New Hampshire has gone down the drain (according to CNN), one has to wonder how desperate the Clinton's are going to get.

Despite all their denials, I am sure Bill and Hillary have their cat o nine tails working overtime beating the troops to find something they can smear Obama with and so far it has not worked. Between Hillary and her inability to answer questions and Bill lying through his teeth on Iraq and trying to make it look like he was a bad president (no need to act on that one Bill, you were a bad president), one has to wonder what other tricks the Clinton's have up their sleeves to make them look foolish?

Hey Jerry, how's Bush's presidency going? Nuff said. Oh, and Hillary will be your president in 2008. I can't wait to never see your monicker on this website again. Freedom of speech is great, but I fully believe freedom of idiocy should be a felony.

I'm sure nobody supporting Republicans values anything to do with science, be it art science, natural science, or anything even really involving literacy, Hi Bush again.

Jerry, you don't dislike Bush, because you don't have the problem of having a higher I.Q. than the president. Democrats, on the other hand, usually have difficulty submitting to people considerably less intelligent.

Travis, Louisville, Ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:03 PM)

Hillary has done an incredible job in the Senate. She has been focused upon issues and solutions and to that end worked very effectively with Republican senators on legislation benefitting women, children, and other domestic issues. She worked closely with and co-sponsored legislation with some of the same Republican senators who led the impeachment fight against Bill during the 1990s. I remember reading news articles that quoted these Republican senators speaking about Hillary in highly complimentary terms -- because she studies the issues, does her homework, and works hard. A Hillary Clinton presidency would no doubt have the usual political battles, but it would also be marked by meaningful problem solving and bipartisanship on numerous domestic issues. World leaders know and respect her from her days of traveling the globe representing the U.S. during Bill's presidency. She excited crowds wherever she traveled for the U.S. Hillary has real substance as well as style, strength, political savvy and campaign know-how.

Joanne Underhill, Denver, CO (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:06 PM)

Travis, Louisville, Ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:07 PM)

Dot:
I would expect that there will have to be a tamping down of the rhetoric of hope engendered by Obama's campaign as his administration progresses. We're not children, I think we all understand this. But isn't far better to start off with lofty ideals and a pledge to keep to them as best as one can? To me, most of the other candidates are so tarnished by the politics as usual (and this excludes, Edwards, Kucinich and Paul in addition to Obama) that they start from a much worse position.

However, my support for Obama is also pragamatic. I believe that of all the candidates (and that includes Biden and Richardson, although these two would have talents to lend to an Obama administration), he is the one with the world view that is most likely to lead this country on a path to a successful foreign policy. He believes in diplomacy first, but by all means is not a pacificist and will be strong enough to use force when it is demanded.

To digress for a minute, nothing irritates me more than claims by McCain that Bush's military surge is responsible for the 'relative' improvement that we are seeing in Iraq at this time. There is no way that a 15% increase in troop strength could have accomplished this. In fact it is primarily because of Sunni co-operation (because of the change in affections vis a vis Al Qaeda) with American forces that there has been any improvement at all.

However, this war as most of us know was a grave mistake and any lull in violence now is just an eye in the storm of a civil war. The Sunni feel it is their right to control the forces (both economic and political) in Iraq and will once again rise to challenge the now installed Shia government. The unrest of the past five years, other than providing for fertile ground for the propagation of Al Qaeda, had nothing to do with 9/11 and was a conflict erroneously and arrogantly unleashed by an intellectually deficient administration. Not only did it distract us from our goals in Afghanistan but it destabilized the Middle East with repercussions that are with us for years to come. I think that this murky problem, fraught with potential for greater unrest, demands an administration with great intellectual capacity in terms of dealing with cultures and interests that are foreign to us.

Obama has demonstrated this intellect and a thoughtfulness necessary to respond to these problems. In addition he has a staff of foreign policy advisers (numbering approx. 200) that are committed to his approach in the region.

Diplomacy will be first with force, as a last resort, always on the table. I feel that he is comfortable with all aspects of execution of foreign policy and will not have to 'prove himself' in reacting to the challenges that are certain to present themselves in the next decade.
Obama '08

Mitchell Feldman, Vestal, NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:17 PM)

Travis, I wasn't addressing you directly. Matter of fact, that I was quite courteous to anyone who decided to read my post other than Van.

But it would figure that a Hillary supporter has nothing to add to a post except for insults for those who do not support their candidate. Or are you really Van and need to use another name instead of disclosing your records????? Hmmm......

Birds of a feather......

Freeman Female, Dallas, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:19 PM)

Jerry, you don't dislike Bush, because you don't have the problem of having a higher I.Q. than the president. Democrats, on the other hand, usually have difficulty submitting to people considerably less intelligent.

Travis, Louisville, Ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:03 PM)

If that is the case Travis.....
Then Hillary has a lot more dumb people then i first thought.

Everyone thought the democrats were the smartest people on earth......
That 11% approval rating the democrat controlled congress has shows how smart they truly are......

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:24 PM)

Freeman-

That self-interview was a hoot! The zogby you again errantly cite, was an INTERNET poll, like the ones that show Ron Paul leading the republicans, or the ones at various websites. The poll was discounted by everyone, except it appears, you, and NOT included in the RCP averages Link posted daily by me).
The zogby poll that was conducted by telephoning respondents and adhering to the standard model of weighted polling, is included in the RCP averages.
It was not I who discounted the internet poll, it was the polling community, as all internet, "voting", polls are. As to my posting a "false" poll, here's the link to the zogby I cited, from RCP;
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/democratic_presidential_nomination-191.html#polls
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSN2061107620071121

Now, go and find the discredited internet poll you are so worked-up about and show everyone where that one is in the RCP averages.

While this reply is far more factual and civil than deserved based on your previous postings and attitude,I'm responding to your allegation more than your person.
Many things have been said about me here, but the only allegations worth refuting are those that impugn my honesty. I am a partisan Clinton supporter, but I have never shied away from posting the polls and links to the polls no matter what they say, nor do I shrink from confronting false accusation with documentation.

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:26 PM)

Hillary has done an incredible job in the Senate.

Joanne:

Here is her record in the Senate to show how incredible her job is......

• Establish the Kate Mullany National Historic Site

• Support the goals and ideals of Better Hearing and Speech Month

• Recognize the Ellis Island Medal of Honor

• Name courthouse after Thurgood Marshall

• Name courthouse after James L. Watson

• Name post office after John A. O'Shea

• Designate August 7, 2003, as National Purple Heart Recognition Day

• Support the goals and ideals of National Purple Heart Recognition Day

• Honor the life and legacy of Alexander Hamilton on the bicentennial of his death

• Congratulate the Syracuse University Orange Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.

• Congratulate the Le Moyne College Dolphins Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship

• Establish the 225th Anniversary of the American Revolution Commemorative Program

• Name post office after Sergeant Riayan A. Tejeda

• Honor Shirley Chisholm for her service to the nation and express condolences on her death

• Honor John J. Downing, Brian Fahey, and Harry Ford, firefighters who lost their lives on duty.

Yeppers....
With a record like that, she could get a food inspector job in any city in the country.....

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:27 PM)

The only people who really truly want Hillary are special interests. So some feel she is the only hope of beating the Republicans, & some just want a woman (no better a reason to vote for than against), & some loved President Bill and are hoping for a sequel, etc. Senator Obama would be a better candidate, except I believe there are parts of our country where it will be hard for a man of color to win and others where his Islamic sounding name will be a huge liability. Edwards and Biden are old news. I really believe the Democrats of the last few elections have been out of touch with the need to appeal to the center in order to win. Yes, they play well in some places with a lot of electoral votes, but there are a lot of states where they will need some people in the middle to have a prayer.
If he were able to get his message out and had the right support, I think Gravel would be a much more electable choice. In any case, I will enjoy watching the drama work itself out this year and have every reason to expect that the Democrats will find a way to shoot themselves in the foot yet again. I just hope that whoever ends up as President has the sense & the intestinal fortitude to get us out of the middle east, and back to concentrating on our own troubles.
And in case anybody is interested, I recommend you register Republican and support Ron Paul. Here is a man who wants to make America a better home again. He has a keen grasp of the issues facing us and is honest enough to try to fix them.
Thank you.

Justin Mayfield (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:31 PM)

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:33 PM)

What gives van? Hillary ( Not her campaign chair in Iowa) started the Obama is a Muslim email. It circulated & circulated, never gaining traction. Then 1 day, someone up & traced it it back. Then Hillary in all her Honesty, said someone in her capaign did this with her Not knowing.The sky is Green, heck, even I know that. Mushroom, anyone?

Rick,ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:01 PM)

I am waiting for an honest and decent (and you know who you are) Obama supporter to tell this guy off.
Of all the disgusting things that I have read here, this one is near the top.

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:39 PM)

Senator Obama's campaign has debunked the whole "not consistent positions" storyline that Senator Clinton's campaign has been feeding to the media with respect to the 1996 questionnaire. Take a look:

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/12/11/fact_check_no_news_in_obamas_c.php

MK, Los Angeles, California (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:41 PM)

Freeman Female, Dallas, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:43 PM)

Speaking of throwing people under the bus, we have only to look the Clinton record of 1992 to 2001.

A partial list of names reads: Vince Foster (tragic suicide), the seven White House Travel office workers (fired and rehired when charges were untrue), Lani Guiniere (yanked nomination), Zoe Baird (yanked nomination), Jocelyn Elders (invited to resign), DeeDee Myers (invited to resign), George Stephanopulous (run-in with Hillary, resigned), Webb Hubbell (jail), Susan McDougal (jail), Jim McDougal (jail), Mack McClarty (resigned), Gov. Jim Guy Tucker (jail), Paula Jones (at least she got some money for her pain), Juanita Broaddrick, Gennifer Flowers, Kathleen Willey, Monica Lewinsky (she got crushed by the bus), Linda Tripp (she did a bad, bad thing and got steamrolled), Al Gore (impeachment, Clinton fatigue and sleaze factor made it impossible to run without having to run away from the Clintons).

Democrats who support Hillary suffer from a combination of amnesia -- failure to remember the WHOLE of the Clinton presidency (co-presidency???) good and bad, and nostalgia.

The problem with both is that post-amnesia, when you get your memory back you're shocked you could blank out so much, and post-nostalgia, you're shocked that you thought it was all wine and roses, when it was thorns and vinegar.

When Clinton Democrats snap out of it, they'll choose someone else to lead them. We Obama Democrats believe he is the one.

Jade (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:44 PM)

MK, Los Angeles, California (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:41 PM)

Yes, you gain much credibility here when you direct folks to a candidate's website...I suggest you go here;
http://www.joebiden.com/
http://chrisdodd.com/
http://www.richardsonforpresident.com/
http://johnedwards.com/
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/

With my apologies (and Kudos) to CitizenJ

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:51 PM)

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:39 PM)

I stated this before: I don't think Clinton is that stupid to personally write an email about Obama being a Muslim. Nor is she so stupid to even have her high level staff write it. In all likelihood it was a low lever, overzealous staffer who thought they were doing Clinton a favor (if it even originated within the Clinton campaign). I guess they were wrong.

CitizenJ (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:52 PM)

Van, please answer the questions. I am not Jerry. I am not a paid supporter. Can you say the same?

Are you a paid supporter?
YES or NO

Do you post under other aliases in First Read?
YES or NO

Don't change the subject now!!!

Freeman Female, Dallas, TX (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:43 PM)

Dear Jerry, I'm not you either...

Freeman Female is all about picking fights and not about being able to admit mistakes.
No one here is paid, who would pay them? I'm willing to accept compensation (cash only, please) if anyone (ANYONE?) offers though.
EVERYONE here posts under an alias, or screen name. I have but one, and considering that 20-25% of today's posts are directed to me, I have my hands full with the ONE I do have.

So, Jerry/Female (Don't you LOVE the idea of JERRY being a BLACK WOMAN?)LOL, now that you have answers to your burning questions, how's about owning up to your misrepresentations?

Van
(Don't sweat it, I know that you won't)

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:07 PM)

In all likelihood it was a low lever, overzealous staffer who thought they were doing Clinton a favor (if it even originated within the Clinton campaign). I guess they were wrong.

CitizenJ (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:52 PM)

Thanks.
Why, though, do you put forth the assumption that,"in all likelihood...", without any reference ANYWHERE to that possibility in the reputable media, yet won't accept the Obama questionnaire without documentation, despite the fact that there has been no denial (that I have seen, to it's existence or the answers that have been published, from the Obama campaign?

Unless I saw something that indicated that something was probable, let alone likely, when it comes to a charge this potentially serious, I wouldn't characterize the charge as likely; And, with all due respect (and I really do respect your opinions here, whether I agree with them or not.) stating, in parens, after claiming that Clinton's camp are the likely culprits, that, "if it even originated within the Clinton campaign."
is tantamount to, "damning with faint praise."
I would have hoped for a more spirited denunciation of a truly disgusting accusation, but I do thank you for adding your voice, as an Obama supporter, to denounce this kind of slander here.

BTW-I believe that the letter J is simply an, "I" bent out of shape...:) (Take that!)

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:22 PM)

"Yesterday, it held a hastily arranged conference call with reporters, seizing on a 1996 Obama questionnaire (displaying his liberal positions on abortion, guns, and health care) that a rival campaign gave to the Politico (there are more questionnaires out there, by the way, which aren't flattering for Obama)."

You care to comment on why a person seeking the Democratic nomination for President having liberal views on guns, abortion, and health care is some how not flattering to Obama?? The Democratic Party is, after all, you know... liberal.

Frankly, the fact that Clinton DOESN'T have a questionaire listing liberal positions that I have heard about speaks to why she shouldn't be the Democratic nominee. But these are the same people who tried to convince me that Obama giving money to Demcoratic candidates trying to get elected in 2008 was somehow bad.

Clinton is desperate. And if the trend lines on the recent polling (statewind is what matters First Read, we don't have a national primary) hold she should be.

John Doe, The Peanut Gallery (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:30 PM)

Freeman Female:

Van is just like his boss Hillary....
he can't answer the tough questions either.....

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:32 PM)

Yeppers....
With a record like that, she could get a food inspector job in any city in the country.....

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:27 PM)

How many times have you re-posted that same cut&paste now? I know the comedy writers are on strike, but do you have to re-run your clown act so often?

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 1:33 PM)

Unlike you Van, that uses a bunch of worthless polls that supposedly have your girl winning, I use the official US Senate website to pull my records.

That is her official record if things she sponsored that got taken care of.....

Will she ever get a bill passed that President Bush can sign???????

Probably not...
She should stay in the Senate and pick up her paycheck every two weeks.....

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:00 PM)

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 2:22 PM)

Van,

I put "in all likelihood" because it is just that: in all likelihood. I don't know FOR SURE that it did't because, well, I just don't. I guess I could have come up with something stronger than "in all likelihood". The chances that she personally did it are probably about as good as being struck by lightening.

And I accept the Obama questionnaire. I really don't see why it's such a scandal that he would have liberal views on guns, abortion, and healthcare. I would like to see the questionnaire, though. We've seen the email, why not the questionnaire?

P.S. Your name makes me think of large, cumbersome vehicles that are good only for hauling garbage :)

CitizenJ (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:07 PM)

The rest of the long, long, list of lies, inaccuracies and willful misinterpretations that comprise the aritcle can be found here;

http://mediamatters.org/items/200712040010

and by a simple search on Goggle.

Van

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 12:49 PM)

You mean media Matters, founded by Hillary Clinton?...

Of course you would go to the source.......
Anything Hillary put together must be the truth right Van?

Van:

Why would Hillary be the founder of a company that looks for dirt on her enemies?

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:09 PM)

BTW Van, I don't recall seeing You or any other Hillary supporter calling for the obama email to be stopped. You all seemed to want to let it float around the internet. Your Holier than thou bullcrap is just that, It's Bull sh_t.As another poster pointed you out with your Hype up Hillary polls, you'll be gone soon, then poster's on here won't havta scroll past your Nonsense on a daily basis.Take your Holier than thou attitude with ya.

Rick,ky (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:19 PM)

I've been around for a few presidential elections (I am 60) and one thing I've found about us Democrats is that we like to shoot ourselves in the foot every now and then. We do have a group of strong candidates this year, intelligent, erudite, good communicators and experienced in the ways of governing our country. And it looks like--here we go again! Mr. Obama is a nice looking young man with a lot of intelligence and natural charm. However, he does not walk on water, he must be held to the same standards of other candidates without his devotees yelling discrimination and he is still untested. There is a reason Karl Rove is telling Obama on TV what to do with Hillary and there is a reason that the Republicans are hoping to run against the Senator. The simple truth is that their machine will make mincemeat out of him and his non-record and non-votes. He may come out of the Chicago political machine but they are amateurs compared to what the conservative Republicans can do to this young man. He may want it now--and Oprah may want him to have it now--but he is not ready to run--or to govern!

Vicki, Omaha NE (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:45 PM)

Carrie,

Biden has NOT stated that he would not consider being ANYONE'S SOS or VP only that he would not be Hillary's VP as it would be a figure head position with the former president as 1st spouse.

Just The Facts (Sent Wednesday, December 12, 2007 3:50 PM)

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