if there's no immediate denunciation (and distancing) from Hillary... watch her campaign implode!  Edwards hit hard and deservedly so.

Since the relevant comment about the Massachusetts' health-care plan from Gerry McEntree of  AFSCME is so far down in the  LOOOOOONG linked article, here is the relevant passage:

"The absence of action on health care reform at the federal level has forced states to pursue their own reform initiatives, largely out of desperation.  Although systemic reform requires federal action, we commend states for attempting to address the issue comprehensively.  However, we are concerned with the direction reform efforts have taken in some states.

For example, the Massachusetts reform model attempts to achieve near-universal coverage through the use of individual mandates that require those without access to coverage through their jobs to buy coverage in the individual market.  Although there are subsidies to help low-income families, many working families will be forced to pay much higher prices for coverage.  The most recent estimates for coverage under this initiative for a family with an income of $50,000 would include a $7,000 premium and a $2,000 deductible.  Health care costs that approach 20 percent of total family income are unaffordable and unacceptable to working families and they will ultimately doom this plan to failure."

In our new age of warrantless wiretaps, I wonder if the administration knows who's calling who in these closing days pre-caucus?

"the Obama campaign sent First Read past congressional testimony from AFSCME head Gerry McEntee criticizing Massachusetts' health-care plan, which -- drum roll, please -- mandates health insurance."

AFSCME tarnishes itself by associating itself with Clinton. Reminds me of the old addage "when you sleep with dogs, you wake up with fleas." very fitting, wouldn't you say?

Another SMACKDOWN by Barack's campaign.The establishment is trying to Destroy this Man, only the VOTER"S can keep that from happening.

" DELUSIONAL THINKING BY COMMON SENSE AMERICAN'S IS OVER "

Since the press can't SPIN Obama's health care plan any more and it has been proven to be weak and leave out 15 million people, they have to find something to hit Clinton's superior plan....


OBAMA AND THE PRESS CAN NOT DEFEND HIS WEAK HEALTH CARE PLAN

So try to spin it however you want and divert attention to the old stand by...attack Clinton,


But it still remains...Obama's health care plan makes Republicans smile and lick their lips.

Two new Iowa polls were released this morning -- with two different leaders for Democrats. But the trendlines are not in Obama's favor. Full roundup: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/12/iowa-three-leaders-from-both-parties-in.html

Go-o-o-od try to change the narrative about Barak Obama's POOR health care plan.

You can rail about Clinton in any nasty way you want and accuse her of all kinds of vile things...BORING...it's already been done for years and didn't work.

The bottom line is that Obama's health care plan is a poorly thought out policy.

****************************************************

Obama's health care plan is bad...so spin it however you want but it will not change that fact.

All the Clinton fans out there better realize that there time is over. All the dirty tricks in the world won't help.

I suppose to the lay person who is experiencing the primary season for the first time this year it seems as though Clinton has a shot.

Just to take all the fun out of it I'll tell you what is going to happen in the Democratic primary.

Notice John Edwards and Barack Obama have not attacked each other at all at least with any fervor. This is similar to the Edwards/Kerry strategy.

Like with Edwards/Kerry the first 3 states will be an actual competition between all three candidates, but mainly between Obama and Edwards. Whoever wins the least states out of the first 3 (between Barack and John) will announce that they are dropping out of the race. This will be followed by a quick Vice Presidential nomination selection of the loser shifting the support of Edwards voters or Obama voters to whoever came out on top. With their combined ticket and money (see Barack fundraising) they will trounce Hillary and the rest of the field on so-called Super Tuesday. This thing will be decided on the Dem side long before Super Tuesday.

Sorry to all you Clintonites out there, but this has been in the works and it was set up to where you would never come out on top.

It's okay. John and Barack have basically the same viewpoints as Clinton, but they have a different style, John is more populist progressive, and Barack is the more hopeful movement candidate. They'll appeal to a greater audience than Clinton in the general and probably deliver many of the same changes (healthcare, ending the war) faster and more appropriately than Clinton.

The best thing of all is that the Republicon Christian theocrat fascists are done for.

Please ! Please !
Don't criticize Hillary !!
It's unfair to point out her 'dirty tricks'

Let's focus on her 'warm' side
Here's a testimonial from Norman Hsu....
'naive'
'roll the dice'
'drugs'
'Msulim'
'AFSCME Hit pieces'

Is that the Republican playbook

Any AFSCME members out there ?
Do you approve of this trash ?
I thought unions were 'good guys' ?


Hillary Clinton, cold, calculating, dishonest, unethical, divisive

AH-HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Got it Chuck Todd.

"Obama campaign sent First Read pat congressional testimony..."    and then the ...drum roll please...
"gotcha.

We always suspected you and First Read were in cahoots...that Axelrod and Co were partners in your reporting.


Now there is proof.


Disgusting. Since you at MSNBC are Obama supporters why not be HONEST for once and just come out and say we are endorsing Barack Hussien Obama for president rather than pussy footing around attacking other candidates.

We'd have much more respect for you.  NOw we have NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If Sen. Clinton can't hire a team to run a campaign better than this one, then how exactly will she run the White House. Rather pathetic, no?

So Hillary's attack dogs go after Obama but try to make it look like it's John Edwards doing the attacking?  Wonder how that will play in Iowa.  

The media  assault on the Edwards campaign is now in full swing and dirty tricks form other candidates (Billary) are coming faster than Howard Dean's decline. Shows what a threat Edwards really is. You're not hearing much about Biden or Richardson. You would be if they were making any kind of serious threat.

ABC, Drudgereport,: Hillary Clinton launches 2 new ATTACK OBAMA websites, when will MSNBC stop remaining silent. Hillarys brother, DEADBEAT DAD owes 10s of thousands of dollars. Hillary looks the other way. Is this the candidate, that women want supporting them?

It's funny, Clinton supporters here are criticizing Obama's health care plan, but give no specifics as to what is wrong with it.  You say that 15 million will be unsured, but that was just someone's opinion, NOT A PROVEN FACT.  If you can prove that it is a fact, please send it to the rest of us.  Oh yeah, you can't.

Also, please tell us how Hillary will mandate health insurance, because the rest of us would really like to know.  Just saying you are going to mandate health insurance is NOT enough.  Is she going to make it a criminal offense to not have health insurance?  If anybody's plan has faults, it's Hillarys.

Okay, I’m going to say it!! I am sick and tired of the anti-Hillary rants; many are outright absurd and unfair in my opinion!! It's gotten me to the point that if Biden drops out, I just may vote for her in the primary.

The attacks are now shifting to Obama, which is "odd" for the GOP. McCain slammed him today yesterday on lack of experience; it wasn't pretty; however, it was telling!! Telling of a GOP in a state of disarray; the GOP playbook usually sticks with assaulting the person they want to get the nomination!!  The GOP wants Hillary Clinton to get the nomination; however, they are underestimating her too in m opinion!!

But attacking Obama really blows me away!! It’s a substantial deviation from their “Evil Playbook” and I believe it could backfire on them, badly!! They just might find themselves running against him, which is not what they want!!  They would much rather run against and continue to attack, insult and smear Hillary Clinton!!

While I do like Senator Obama, I am one who really does not think he has the experience right now; if this comment generates hate posts directed at me, so be it; I’m being honest!!. I believe he should have waited until either 2012, depending on the results of 2008, or 2016. His greatest moment was his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. I sat in awe of him and have listened to that speech over and over again; it was outstanding and one of the best I have ever heard – from anyone!! I also am somewhat frightened that some, not all, of his followers are behaving in “cult-like” fashion!!

His 2004 speech is what gained him notoriety; therefore, his 'leap frog" over the Biden's, Dodd's, Richardson's and some others with more experience and qualifications have been cast aside!! I steadfastly maintain that experience is "relevant" --especially in this election. George W. Bush has caused too much damage; we need solid experience and I believe Biden, Dodd and Richardson have it. Senator Clinton also has experience; although not as much as Dodd, Biden or Richardson; however, in my opinion, her role as First Lady did give her great insight; in addition, her years in the Senate have been impressive!!

I am becoming increasingly more angry over the juvenile, hate-filled and unwarranted attacks on Senator Clinton; and not from the GOP, I expect that behavior; but from the media and many democrats who I respect!!

PEACE!!

Obama's groupies remind me of cult members.  I had considered him in the past but many of his followers turned me off to him.  

disgusted (Sent Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:45 AM)

EXACTLY!! It's disgusting, period!!

More and more it looks like Edwards is about to win Iowa convincingly.

He might just blow the other two out of the water.

In other news, Edwards goes for more glamour shots at the nearby Des Moines mall.

I'm sick of nasty campaign's using everything they can to try to dig up dirt and blind we voters to the truth and real issues.

I'm voting for Hillary Clinton who has the best health care plan without leaving out 15 million people.

Hillary will there for us.  

Dot, here is the issue that I tend have a running theme with (even though the current unsustainable healthcare situation is not the main topic driving me to the booth), like your Afghanistan, the forgotten War on Terror.  Obama, well, the Democrats seem to want to move our forces from Iraq (doing better) to Afghanistan (going downhill).

Of course Gerry McEntee would criticize mandates on health insurance, because it's not going to help out anybody financially.  The problem isn't that they weren't forced to buy, it's that they can't afford it.


But people say that mandates are needed because it will force preventative care; thus lowering costs.  I have two issues with this argument.  First, mandating crappy insurance isn't going to lead to preventative care.  If people are forced to buy unaffordable health insurance, they will buy the cheapest that will get them by, not offering preventative care.  For example, when I had to pay for my own, I bought the one to cover serious injury, not minor health problems.  No prevention there, but I did have insurance.

Second, if preventative care would in fact lower healthcare costs ...  Look, I'm assuming that everybody would agree that insurance companies would like to make money, lower premiums and get more clients--free market an all.  My question is, if this other system of preventative care was so much better financially, why aren't the insurance companies doing such?  I say first, let’s find the cause of rising costs, and then take real steps to reduce those costs.  Then, when we have affordable healthcare, let’s force it universal if you want.

In other news, you all think that I’m crazy advocating for non-universal health insurance.  But I’m not against a governmental insurance program, if they could do better.  I say, have private companies and the government compete on an open market, and we can find out which is better.  Two stipulations though: those enrolled pay, those not enrolled don’t have to pay.  The government program is on equal footing (no unfair advantages) with the private companies.  Under these conditions, who thinks the government could win?  Offer better care for less?  It would be a grand experiment.


America is becoming bad with money, Republicans too, maybe even especially Republicans.  Look at the national debt, the bad housing loans being paid off by credit cards—which does not work.  Credit and credit cards are destroying this nation, because we don’t seem to know how to use them.  For a country that represents capitalism, we sure are not doing well with capitalism.  We need to save, and get this country back on track.  If debt is bad for people, it’s also bad for this country.

"I've just been personally attacked again," Clinton broke in. "I don't mind taking hits on my record on issues, but when somebody starts throwing mud at least we can hope it's accurate and not right out of the Republican playbook."

CLINTON: But for him to be throwing this mud and making these charges I think really detracts from what we're trying to do here tonight. We need to put forth a positive agenda for America..."

"People are not attacking me because I'm a woman, they're attacking me because I'm ahead," Clinton said, striving to protect her standing as front-runner in an increasingly competitive nominating campaign."

GIVE ME A FC*#** BREAK! clinton is a hypocrite. she does not deserve to win.
______

btw, for everyone who is saying obama's health care plan is bad, don't just say it's bad b/c you're a supporter. back it up by saying WHY it's bad.

how do you expect all ppl to pay for health insurance when it is mandated? garnish their wages? isn't it more logical to make it more affordable first BEFORE you go about forcing ppl to buy this and that?

for edwards supporters, it is unreasonable to say that you have to destroy the corporate interests. b/c for all the talk about overwhelming influence by lobbyists, there are millions of ppl who work at these places. you have to find common ground to reduce their influence not butt them completely out of the picture.

The referenced article is not about Obama's plan, but rather about how the leader of the same union that is sending out mail against Senator Obama's plan was also against the health care plan that  Senator Clinton's plan is modeled on in April of this year. Wonder what changed?

Here is a good article that discusses Senator Obama's health care plan in a reasoned and factual way:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/80882

The bottom line is that Hillary's plan is the superior one--and the only one which could attract some Repub votes in the Senate.

Isn't it interesting that Mr. Todd leads with this anti-Hillary story not the tremendous new poll results for HRC.

NEED ANSWERS!!!!!!!!!!!!

  Why does First Read ignore all the underhanded, nasty attacks that Obama makes on Hillary while digging in tandem with the Obama campaign to find anything to blow up into a SUPPOSED scandal on Clinton?

Please go to    attacktimeline.com

The press did the same thing to Gore in 2000 and LOOK WHAT WE GOT.

For the sake of all of us and our future,get back to real issues.

Will Obama's health care plan be the best for working people?  Does it leave us out?  As president would he really fight for health care?  He's using Republican talking points (mandates) now.

Go-o-o-od try to change the narrative about Barak Obama's POOR health care plan.

You can rail about Clinton in any nasty way you want and accuse her of all kinds of vile things...BORING...it's already been done for years and didn't work.

The bottom line is that Obama's health care plan is a poorly thought out policy.

****************************************************

Obama's health care plan is bad...so spin it however you want but it will not change that fact.

J J (Sent Thursday, December 20, 2007 11:51 AM)

And for as poor as everyone claims Obama's plan is because it "leaves out 15 million people", we still have heard NOTHING about how Clinton's or Edwards' mandate will cover EVERYONE. Have we heard an estimate on how many people will be "told" to buy insurance, but still won't do it? Oh yeah, I forgot: when they go to the emergency room after their car accident, they will be automatically enrolled. Then when the bill comes and they STILL CAN'T AFFORD IT, and as a result don't pay it, we will throw them in debtors prison so they can learn from their mistakes.

What's the problem with healthcare? It costs too much and people can't afford it. What is Clinton's and Edwards' solution? Make them pay it anyway??? Lowering the costs comes first, then we won't need a mandate.

How many people drive without mandated car insurance? And that is a fraction of what health insurance costs.

But really, all of this is just for fun because Congress will NEVER pass a plan that can be spun as "socialized medicine".

George?  MSNBC is dishonest for posting the AFSCME's leader's past testimony railing against mandates after the AFSCME tries to act like it is in favor of mandates? Hmmmm.  See, there's no bias when something is TRUE.  There's only bias when something is untrue.

We always suspected you and First Read were in cahoots...that Axelrod and Co were partners in your reporting.


Now there is proof.


Disgusting. Since you at MSNBC are Obama supporters why not be HONEST for once and just come out and say we are endorsing Barack Hussien Obama for president rather than pussy footing around attacking other candidates.

We'd have much more respect for you.  NOw we have NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

George (Sent Thursday, December 20, 2007 12:00 PM)

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the whole news process. EVERY campaign EVERYWHERE sends things to the media.

OH, HORRORS!

Repubican health care policy.  They abhor...drum roll...mandates!  Not to mention health care period.


Obama screams about...drum roll...mandates, as well.


Perhaps Obama is in the wrong party.

Correct me if I am wrong.  The Union CAN'T coordinate with Clinton's campaign.  That would be illegial.

The Union can freely - as in is ALLOWED -  to tout an issue and take on any candidate in a negative or positive way re: that issue.

So what we have here is another  - for the 10,ooo time - is Barry Obama and campaign crying and whining about something that is perfectly in bounds and that they just happen not to like.

Furthermore, how it is "disguised"?

Doesn't it clearly say that is the product of the AFSCME?

Tell Barry Obama to toughen up.  He looks weaker by the day.  

George,

It sounds like you're already on edge so I don't want to alarm you, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. ALL THE CAMPAIGNS send things to First Read and thus Chuck Todd is in cahoots with all of them.

I think it's sad that the Obama campaign has to be the ones pointing out the hypocrisy of AFSCME on this issue rather than intrepid reporters finding this out for themselves, but I'm not sure exactly what is sinister about the Obama people submitting copies of congressional testimony to First Read.

But then again I don't drink the Clinton victimization kool-aid.

Please, please
Continue to give Barack Hussien Obama a free pass
We don't need to know the truth



*Indicted slumlord Rezko..good friend and campaign
   contributor

*Indicted slumlord Rezko helped his friend
   Obama buy his million dollar house/property

*Indicted slumlord Rezko's lawyer Obama and his
    law firm helped Rezko get millions of dollars
    of our tax money to remodel buildings...


    Yet during a Chicago winter there was no
    heat and the people were freezing...Obama
    nor his friend Rezko did anything to help.


You bet,  Obama has the lower and middle class at heart.  

We can't live on "hope"!!!

Just listen to your way of reporting, so fake. This is another example First read is not being honest, just like Chris Matthew saliver guy. Have some guts to stand up for what a real "media" to America. If by now you still don't read Obama right, You dead, period. Shame !!!!!!!!!!

By the way, why don't you publish all posts supporting Hillary. Lots of people complain they don't see their posts. What we see here is Obama's 24/7 posters. Chuck, please do not join the club, people like you because you are fair, stay with issues, it seems that you are leaning to Chris. Don't lose it. You are way better than that.

Labor unions do not support Barack Obama.

They support Edwards and Clinton.

Did anyone ever wonder why the unions...working class people...do NOT support Obama?


Why has the media checked it out?


Do the unions know that Obama will not be there for working class people with his health care plan?


Media...now that might make a good story.  Do some investigative journalism instead of the tired, old redundant attacks on Clinton and Edwards.

WHY DO THE UNIONS NOT SUPPORT OBAMA?????

Lets illustrate to all the Obamamaniacs how silly this is.

Should Movon.org have had to say that it backed John Kerry at the end of every add it ran attacking George Bush in '04?

When Moveon used quotes from retired generals, or newspapers or diplomats in its adds attacking Bush in '04 was it trying to "frame" those folks?

Speak up.

The answer is of course no to both.

Camp Obama, with the media's help, is trying to drum up another false scandel to attack Clinton with, and divert from the topic which is health care and Obama's woeful plan to address it.  Next thing you know they will telling us that Al Gore said he invented the internet.

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with BS! I think its fine to criticize Obama's plan for healthcare or any other issue. BUT, why do you feel the need to make it appear the criticism is from another person instead of being upfront?

Maybe people look at this as just politics but, ask yourself how you would feel working with or for someone who operated this way in your workplace?

This is why I no longer support her and she is the only candidate that would cause me NOT to vote democratic even though I voted for Bill twice.

Its just sad...

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance baffle them with BS! I think its fine to criticize Obama's plan for healthcare or any other issue. BUT, why do you feel the need to make it appear the criticism is from another person instead of being upfront?

Maybe people look at this as just politics but, ask yourself how you would feel working with or for someone who operated this way in your workplace?

This is why I no longer support her and she is the only candidate that would cause me NOT to vote democratic even though I voted for Bill twice.

Its just sad...

OK everybody this is politics we never repeat ever insult another person use thier past against them,remember hill and bill ansewring questions on thier marriage before he became president now if you question a policy you hitting below the belt DO YOU THINK THE REPUBLICANS PUSH OBAMA BECAUSE THEY WILL VOTE FOR HIM OR DO THEY THINK HES EASIER TO BEAT.

Most people know a black man won't be elected President before he's been elected VP - and Obama would not be on a Hillary ticket.
Hopefully, the "hope" crowd can figure that out in time to vote for John Edwards!

They are so easily fooled,So john is for obamas healthplan or is he against it .

Back to health care, I see.

Okay.  Let's discuss Barack Obama's health care plan once again.

This is not a good talking point for him.  His health care plan is not good and a weakness for him.

When he uses Republican talking points (mandates) to support his plan, we  Democrats know we are in trouble.

Republican health care plan....drum roll....Obama's.

Former Clintonite Robert Reich won't even shill for HRC!

...I’m equally concerned about her attack on his health care plan. She says his would insure fewer people than hers. I’ve compared the two plans in detail. Both of them are big advances over what we have now. But in my view Obama’s would insure more people, not fewer, than HRC’s. That’s because Obama’s puts more money up front and contains sufficient subsidies to insure everyone who’s likely to need help – including all children and young adults up to 25 years old. Hers requires that everyone insure themselves. Yet we know from experience with mandated auto insurance – and we’re learning from what’s happening in Massachusetts where health insurance is now being mandated – that mandates still leave out a lot of people at the lower end who can’t afford to insure themselves even when they’re required to do so.

..HRC doesn’t indicate how she’d enforce her mandate, and I can’t find enough money in HRC’s plan to help all those who won’t be able to afford to buy it. I’m also impressed by the up-front investments in information technology in O’s plan, and the reinsurance mechanism for coping with the costs of catastrophic illness. HRC is far less specific on both counts. In short: They’re both advances, but O’s is the better of the two. HRC has no grounds for alleging that O’s would leave out 15 million people.

http://robertreich.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-is-hrc-stooping-so-low.html

Seirra enjoy the next 4 years under this republican party you deserve them you will certainly help them by hating the democratic party like you do,good luck with the general all that hatred for hilliary will really get her supporters behind barack .4 MORE YEARS Maybe your are really a republican trying to influence the other parties choice.

Oh - NOW - TODAY - the media takes note of empty suit Obama and his votes in Illinois senate.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22335739

Obama is a pleaser - and will please all the corporatists and lobbyists who've funded his political career.

List of lobbyists endorsing Obama --
http://www.rollcall.com/politics/kstendorsements.html

Edwards has never taken a dime from Washington lobbyists!!

for all you clowns whith nothing better to say than obama plan is bad an leaves out 15, mil . where do you get this from besides clinton talking points . Can you please explain why its bad . Is it because he dose not make people buy things they cant afford . ask your self how dose not want helth care. um that would be zero . so the plan that makes the most since is instead of becoming communist make helth care that adults can afford and mandate kids that cant do it for themselves . Now try to make your case . ups you cant because her plan is stupid and could not pass anyway ,and yea that plan would leave 15 mil or more without ins. the only difference is under clinton those people will also incur other penalties . Please you people have no leg to stand on only negetive staments that you cant prove . This is why your candidate is sinking fast.

She continues, "It's fine to have an honest debate about policy, but Iowans deserve better than planted questions and campaign fliers designed to fool them.”

Better leave the Clinton's out of the debate on honesty.
They have nothing to debate in that area.

It seems to me that all three plans are about the same except,for the mandate. I just don't see how putting a mandate on a health care plan makes it better, and that seems to be the only problem people have with Obama's plan. What is the mandate a fine? All three have small holes where people might fall through. It seems to me Obama leaves his hole open, the other two cover there's up and will give you a fine if you fall in, none of them actually fill the hole.
So the question is without the mandate (cover over the hole)which plan is better (has the smallest hole)? I don't know!!, it seems that matter's on who you ask.

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