Another thought...

Posted: Monday, January 21, 2008 10:31 PM by Domenico Montanaro

From NBC/NJ's Aswini Anburajan
Hillary Clinton did appear angry, tough, maybe overly harsh but she also came off as a formidable opponent, and one had to wonder that if she could go after her Democratic colleagues like that imagine what she would do to a Republican. The core goal of Democrats voting in this election is electability, they want change but they want to win more. Clinton showed that she could take someone down, if not at least attempt to.

That's not to say that Obama is not tough or couldn't be harsh on a potential Republican in the race, it's just that Clinton came off as so tough. It's interesting if you put Obama's performance and Clinton's attacks in light of Jim Clyburn's interview with Nightline. Clyburn said that if Obama can't handle the attacks in the primaries and come out as a victor, he wouldn't make it in a general -- basically saying that Hillary Clinton was doing Obama a favor by going after him.

EMAIL THIS

Comments

HILLARY IS ONE "TOUGH COOKIE" AND THIS NATION IS IN ONE "TOUGH" SITUATION, AFTER THE BUSH "DISASTOR". WE HAD BETTER HAVE ONE "TOUGH COOKIE" RUNNING THE GOVERMENT. THEASE ARE VERY, VERY SERIOUS TIMES. hillaryclinton.com

Z (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:38 PM)

Obama was the one that nasty and angry tonight. He attacked first!

Aidyn, NY (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:38 PM)

I guess I don't see this as going through a crucible for Obama and Clinton. I see it as tearing the party apart. I know too many Obama supporters who won't vote for Hillary if she's the party's nominee, and too many Clinton supporters who won't vote for Barack if he's the nominee. God help the Democratic party. And Edwards is worthless.

Seth, Kalamazoo, MI (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:38 PM)

SHE WANTS TO BE A MAN SO BAD A GOOD CASE OF A PERSON BORN IN THE WRONG BODY.

KING OF SMEAR (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:39 PM)

Tough? Unpleasant, scolding and bitchy is more like it. Who wants a president that makes everyone rush to press the mute when ever she speaks? Yikes.

GO OBAMA

SJF, Santa Monica (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:40 PM)

I love being told what we, as Democrats, want in this election. What I want, as President, is someone who I can respect and someone who is different from W. Hillary just isn't. I was a Hillary fan a month ago and now won't vote for her no matter who the Republican candidate is. The bottom line is that her scorched-Earth method of politics, whether it be campaigning or governing, isn't really any different from W's and Rove's.

We need someone who is different from the politics of the last 16 years. Hillary is determined to win -- to heck w/ the consequences for the party or the people of the U.S. Selecting Hillary as the Democratic nominee not only is a vote for the Republican nominee in November, b/c she can't win, but is not "winning" at all. It's losing b/c the U.S. will be worse off, or at least as bad as it's been over the last 8. Hillary offers a few different policies, to be sure, but no real way of getting them enacted b/c of the way in which she campaigns and governs.

chuck (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:41 PM)

She comes off like Nurse Rachet, but looks weak when
Bill Has to wear the pants,and carry on the politics
of personal attack.

Bob Alaska (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:42 PM)

BRING IT ON REPUBLICAN PARTY !

HILLARY (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:43 PM)

I disagree with the assertion that we (I'm assuming you mean us Dems) want to win more than we want change. You are absolutely WRONG on that, so please don't lump us all together. While there is a p*ssed off wing of the party that just wants to stick it to somebody to make up for Bush, many of us seeing Hill & Bill pull out the Rovian tactics in an attempt to smear Obama are reminded that we've already had 16 years of anger & lies between the him & the Clintons. That's why I, along with many other lifelong Dems, won't vote for Hill as the nominee. If you doubt, just check some of the other political blog comment sections. There are tons of folks who are fed up with her & refuse to turn a blind eye again. They just keep pulling the same crap.

KC (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:43 PM)

To me, Senator Clinton seemed agitated and out of control, just like her husband. Not the perfect pair for high stress situations.

Nashville_fan (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:46 PM)

That is spot on. Hillary is the one that can stand up to the tough questions. She can take on the Republicans. Obama stuttered and paused and said uh uh uh wait wait wait. It was embarrasing. He is just not ready for the white house yet. He has not been forced on the tough issues and Hillary faces it every day. He speaks the message from the pulpit looking for followers who would follow him like a pied piper - leading them to nowhere.
Hillary the the solid candidate and she won this debate hands down. Edwards also did good but he is too far behind. Obama absolutely lost no matter how you try and spin it. he is going to get the black vote - hello - that would be stupid to think oh look obama wins south carolina - Hillary is looking past SC to super tuesday.
Hillary WILL take it all.

Lee, PEI, Canada (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:48 PM)

...and yet when Obama goes after Clinton, it's spun as "harsh," as in the NH debate.

Clyburn's right, but there's a double-standard here that might eventually come back to hurt Clinton in the general - you can't be mean back to her because you risk a Lazio effect. If someone like McCain runs away with that while maintaining a gravitas that Obama lacks, she'll get hammered in the general.

charlie a., new york, ny (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:48 PM)

You have to wonder who Barack is running against, Hillary or Bill?

Kenell Worth (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:50 PM)

"The core goal of Democrats voting in this election is electability, they want change but they want to win more."

Not every Democrat feels that way. One of the reasons I admire Obama so much is because he refused to play dirty politics and said that he didn't want to win that way. One of the things that separates us from the Republicans is that we typically don't play scorched earth politics. Well, unless your name is Clinton, I guess...

KC (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:51 PM)

You kind of get a feel for why Bill is the way he is. Being around someone as controlling as Hillary has got to be a tough row to hoe.

Mike, Boulder CO (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:51 PM)

All the Republicans would really have to say about Clinton in the general would be this:

We've had a Bush or Clinton in the White House since the 1980s. This year, we as Republicans, understand that dynasties are not what America is about and we are running to end this grip these two families have on our country.

And the republicans will win, hands down.

Betsy, Kansas City, MO (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:55 PM)

If angry and harsh make your formidable, then yes, Hillary is formidable.

Nancy Trevell SanFrancisco CA (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:55 PM)

Who is Rezco? I don't think slunlords are nice people. Why is Obama helping them or letting slumlords like Rezco or Rezko help him buy a fancy house. My house costs 76,000 and Obama's cost a million.

Mary Turner (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 10:56 PM)

Hillary IS tough enough to take down ANY republican as she proved without a doubt tonight! Obama's lame excuses and whiney complaints about Bill Clinton picking on him were so silly. It was more than enough to prove that he CANNOT handle the tough scrutiny the Republicans are just salivating to put him through! WE NEED HILLARY FOR PRESIDENT!!!

Cathy, Upstate NY (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:03 PM)

I think today Obama was taken aback by Hillary's fighting ability. He looked very weak. He was like a boxer who was trying avoid punches covering his face with hands.I got the impression that Republicans will crush this guy.

J, Ca (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:08 PM)

Imagine what she would do to a Republican??

Imagine what the Republicans are going to do to her. Even if she wins, she will never get anything done. I believe she is more hated than Bush (take that with a grain of salt as I live in Texas).

DCortez, Houston, Texas (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:17 PM)

Angry? Tough? Formidable opponent? Skilled politician? Yes to all of these. Presidential? No. All this debate proved was that when the chips are on the table Clinton is a master at mischaracterization and verbal gymnastics.

Michael D. Hafer, Fort Wayne, Indiana (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:20 PM)

Clearly Obama was useless. The best candidate in the debate today was Edwards. He actually gave value versus squabling. Really - doesn't that speak to his professionalism and ideals? We need to vote for the person who WILL do something for us..not just slander their opponent and tell us what we want to hear..after copying it from someone else.

Lisa T, Des Moines, IA (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:20 PM)

Hillary does not look like someone that would take critisizm very well. She does not appear to be very flexible or willing to listen. She kind of has a bull in a china shop mindset. It's doubtful that she's the right person for the job.

Ross Bloom NY NY (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:21 PM)

Hillary has found her voice - it's Bill. Don't we already have a President that relies too much on his veep?

Tom, Chicago IL (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:23 PM)

I agree. I think Hillary did a good job tonight in looking tough. I know I would hate to be in her position...she gets nailed if she shows too much softer emotion, but she also gets nailed if she looks too harsh. It's a horribly thin line she has to navigate and the fact that she's done it pretty well for so long (and is still standing strong) recommends her for the job of president in my opinion. Particularly when O'bama looks almost like he's whining about Bill's comments. Men don't have this problem...if they tear up, their just "sensitive" or showing their deep caring on a certain issue and if their harsh, that's just boys being boys. Til tonight, this race has been one of the nicer ones I can recall. And O'bama has been handled with kid gloves by most of the press. He needs to demonstrate he can take a pounding (the likes of which we all know the Republicans will deliver) and stand up...as she has already done time and time again.

MN mom (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:36 PM)

well i thought obama handled Hillary well..Its seems to me that she came prepared to talk more about her issues than what the debate was about...She has to realize she not going to wind up as the queen and bill as the king......They have made there millions from the american people and rember when they were leaving the white house they were trying to clean it out..So why should i support her. They Have already cleaned ous out...For thiry five yrs we are still facing the same crisis with the same person...no way...

Russ Wells, Maine (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:37 PM)

will Hilary be formidable and tough when GOP surrogates start saying "what about filegate, travelgate, gennifer flowers, kathleen willey, the $1000 investment that turned into $100,000 monica lewinsky vince foster the meaning of is is'' when those things become the topic of the day- and with the clintons they will- then the higher minded topics and issues are not discussed. i wish journalists would discuss this in real terms rather than just alluding to her "polarizing" factor!

cj (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:43 PM)

Yes, I can imagine what she would do to a Republican opponent and in my minds eye, it adds up to divisive politics. Exactly, what this country does not need more of.

Sandra Brown-Richardson (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:45 PM)

Hillary Clinton did not come off any tougher than any one else in this debate. Infact, she looked like she was knocked down a few notches and called out on her and her husbands misrepresentations of Obama's statements.

Annette (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:45 PM)

She loves to interrupt. She's a rude witch.

RobK, Seattle, Wash. (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48 PM)

Obama proved that he can deliver a strong blow when he himself is coming under fire. Hillary looked tough at the outset, to be sure. But she seemed to be expecting Obama to say "No Mas" at a certain point and back down and try to give one of those "we have so much in common" moments. Instead, he defied her expectations and kept counterpunching, to the point where I swear she looked a bit deflated about 45 minutes in. Then, when the debate calmed down and played to Obama's strengths, he took full advantage and was more generous to Bill Clinton than Bill was even due on the question asking Obama to respond to the Toni Morrison comment that Bill was the first black president. He looked bigger and more generous than the others.

RaymondA (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:48 PM)

Obama threw the 1st punch. Hillary stood tall and took him on. We need a President who will stand up and
fight for what is right. Obama kept his hand up looking for Wolf's help. Seems like he is needing alot of people to fight his battles and to explain what he was "really saying". Thanks all the same, Hillary wins hands down.

L.,Tn (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:54 PM)

Hillary can do what she did because she knows the issues and how to attack them. Edwards was able to hold his own, too. But Obama, he appeared most of the time grappling for words and ideas, surely unable to match his soaring rhetorics in his stump speech. And this in front of his adoring natural constituents.

Tonight, Hillary proved that she's made of the right stuff to tumble with anyone against a Republican candidate.

GO GIRL, GO!!!!!

sandawgman (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:58 PM)

Clinton showed she can smile and then stab you in the back while her surrogates take out your knees. Perhaps as First Read suggests, this proves that she can take on the Republicans.

Or, perhaps our country deserves better.

Simple-Minded in South Carolina? (Sent Monday, January 21, 2008 11:59 PM)

Thanks Raymond A. I think Hillary looked deflated as well. No one wants to talk about the Edwards and Clinton bankruptcy bill vote, why?

Sandwagon, I think what you see in Obama's communication is deep considerate thougt before he speaks. I think anybody can rattle off pat responses, but it takes a true intellect to actually think about something before they speak or vote. I love Hillary's excuse about the way she voted on the bankruptcy bill then was glad it did'nt pass. Give me a break.

Annette (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:17 AM)

Obama look like someone socked him between the eyes when she took him on. I want a tough cookie as my president not a wuz. He skirts around questions and when he does answer you don't understand what he just said. Even Edwards took him down a notch tonight. Obama was definately the favorite son with the audience. Hillary still didn't back down even when they booed her. You go girl!

voter (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:32 AM)

Are you kidding me?? The people noting that Obama "attacked first" with the corporate job at Walmart must have lived under a rock when Hillary AND Bill were smearing him for the last 3 weeks.

J.T., Chicago IL (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:10 AM)

Way to go Obama!!!! He has tried to be nice, and the clintons seem to take it as a weekness. Tonight he put her and Bill in her place got the message out to not beleive the Clinton lies. And I'm glad he did sometimes you have to lower yourself to someone else level. And he will probebily have to do it again, the Clintons know they can't win on the issues, so they have to open the republican playbook of dirty politics. Everyone says Obama doesn't have the experance, well then why do they have to resort to dirty politics and lieing.
I personally hope now that Obama has slapped them both we can talk about what America needs again!!! I would perfer Obama but I can vote Bloomberge too!!!!

Jeff Rathdrum ID (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:41 AM)

Obviously you're in the Clinton camp Aswini. Everytime I ready you, it's pro Clinton. You are hereby dismissed as a Clinton Supporter....boooooo!

Darrick, Portland, OR (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 2:56 AM)

I watched the critics after the debate and they said Senator Obama had been the strongest in the debate! I was proud of him when he went after Hillary and Bills lies!! Hillary not only interrupts when others are talking, she talks far too long, always goes over the alloted timeframe. Did you hear the crowd "BOO" Hillary? I loved it!! Hillary and Bill do NOT belong in our White House. They have run a slash-and- burn campaign based on lies! I look at the candidates and how they run their campaigns and how they actually campaign as a litmus test as to how they would lead as President. In my estimation, Hillary has already failed the test; just like she failed her law exams twice in DC and the reason why she could not go into practice as a lawyer. Didn't Bill Clinton say she was one of the smartest women in the world? Really???? Smart in what? Slash-and- burn tactics and lying???

NinaK (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:03 AM)

you guys are FOOLS to think Obama can MAGICALLY bring republicans and democrats together. It doesnt work that way. There will always be partisan politics. Obama has a glass jaw, and seems to complain bitterly when he is attacked. There is nothing wrong with Obama at all. He is just INEXPERIENCED. If anyone honestly believes Obama can just tap dance thru the general election, then welcome to 4 years of John McCain.

tom, palm bay florida (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:08 AM)

I like Obama as much as the next guy, but living in Florida, I will promise you he will be destroyed by the Republicans. Think of it like this, Despite whatever they do they can beat Bill and or Hillary they cant get the job done. So there basically saying the Rep.'s is "Hey lets get them to elect the black guy, ya know so we can polarize the nation, cause our southerns would rather die than let that happen" You don't think they'll try and kill him some wack job will??..Ironically on MLK day pay attention.

So think about it, I love Obama alot i think hes a great speaker I even bought his book, but he speaks in more dreams than reality..Im sorry I cant vote for him. Plus umm except for the Regan comment, outta the other things Bill was criticizing him on were legit questions..His Voting Record for one, Im a live long democrat and I followed Obama when I saw first saw him in the DNC convention..Before you jump to judgment..read some independent stuff..for yourself..ya know Learn about your candidates..Howard Stern said it best " Outta everyone we talk to, no one's why there voting for anyone"

Justin, Miami Fl (Life long Democrat) (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 4:36 AM)

As an Independent, it's interesting and fun to watch both parties' debates and really quite funny to read the blogs. Hillary, along with Bill, have the philosophy that if you tell lies often enough and long enough, people will believe them. Unfortunately, they are proven correct, re; Bill's entire presidency and Hillary's "experience." The Republicans on the other hand, are and always have been, weak. Where they got the reputation of being mean and tough is beyond me. The Democrats always fight dirtier and take no prisoners. The Republicans always back down. In my humble opinion, the next President will be a Democrat. My only hope is that it is NOT Hillary. She is a scary human being.

Dave, Dallas, TX (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:49 AM)

Senator Clinton was harsh and inaccurate. Frankly I watched the debate to see who to vote for between Senator Clinton and Senator Obama. What became quite clear is that I nor the country I think, wants our President to spend the next four years fending off attacks of the other party and Senator Clinton's repeated statements that she has done so for 16 years to me is an indication of what the next four years would be like. I would rather have a President who spends the next four years solving our problems with ideas from Repulicans and Independents alike coming into the White House. Senator Obama was tough and direct and I for one appreciated the explanation of the charges that were directed to him and would have liked to hear from Senator Cllinton what her truth is to the charges Senator Obama waged toward her. Instead she deflected rather than answered and while the media might think that is effective, for those of us deciding who to vote for, I found it politics as usual.

Janice (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 5:54 AM)

"The core goal of Democrats voting in this election is electability, they want change but they want to win more."

Not likely, not for this voter. I began this election season with a neutral opinion of Sen. Clinton but the last few weeks have changed that neutrality to outright dislike and disgust. Her campaign tactics are underhanded, even dirty, and she tests voter patience with her antics.

Sure, she appears tough in a debate, because she knows quite well how to attack her opponents while she avoids directly answering questions posed to her. I'm just praying that voters and delegates won't mistake her anger at the podium for strength and clear judgement in office. We don't need a divisive president in office right now, and that is precisely the kind of president she will be.

As for the quote above: if she is chosen as the Democratic candidate, I will not put in my vote for her. I will no longer support her type of politics, the same type of stubborn, self-centered politics we've seen too much these last few terms.

Liz, Seattle, WA (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:52 AM)

Why isn't anyone talking about Obamas racist comment.

When asked if he thought Bill Clinton was the first black President, he said quote "I don't know, I'd have to see him dance first".

He was obviously trying to be funny, but when a white person does something like that, they get crucified. At the very least, it lacked couth and should not have occured in a Presidential debate. I can just picture the other world leaders as they watched this slingfest. They were probably licking their chops at the notion that one of these three clowns might be the next President. What I saw last night is the farthest thing from Leadership.

By the way, Hillary was worse than Obama. All she did was sling mud. The only one of the three that presented himself w/ any class was Edwards(too bad he simply doesn't understand what makes America great. If it were up to him, he'd bring socialism to our great Nation.

Double standard (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:58 AM)

Let's wake up Dems! We need to win this one, and win in a way that will bring a governing majority and a path forward for our party. The Repubs need Hillary desperately. Why? Because GW has wrecked their coalition and the only thing that will pull them together in November is a common enemy. They've been working on Hillary for decades now, and most of the heavy lifting has already been done. All they need to do is drive up her negatives another five percent or so and they win. They're sitting on a treasure trove of golden oldies, plus a whole new set of attack lines they haven't fully exploited yet. Heard much about those pardons at the end of Bill's last term? You will. Ask yourself, is this really the general election campaign we want to see? Even if she manages to squeak through, having her at the top of the ticket will hurt us badly in the purple and red districts and then and it's back to the culture wars. I'm not saying it's her fault and this is NOT a gender issue. I’d be happy to vote for a woman presidential candidate. But not tnis one. The question of whether a woman can be tough enough to play with the big boys has already been answered decades ago by good old Margaret Thatcher. Barack is running a unifying general election campaign with a real chance to push the whole pile in our direction. An opportunity like this may not come again in your lifetime. Join us, please!

Jaycee., Ventura, California (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:26 AM)

I too was glad that Obama took off the gloves and went after Billary. His soul was showing through and his greatness will win out over the dark-side of the Clinton smear campaign.

George W. Katsilometes, Pocatello, Idaho (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:49 AM)

I agree with L. From T and Lee's post. Hillary shows that she is willing to fight for what she is bleieves in.

If people misrepresent her passion for such issues, as anger then that is wrong.

Obama side step many questions and allegations, no clear plan on economy, he took the rezko allegation and changed subject, besides lie about his role-totally different from Chic. Tribune version. He has no viable Healthcare plan. He shows no passion or substance when it comes to issues.

He just promises, promises, hope and change.

I want a president who will fight for the people, not just put it the citizens hands, what so he can blame us when the chips all fall apart. Like he does with everything else.

Edwards won the debate, Hillary stood her groung and Obama fumbled on issues as he always does. He will never with stand the republicans. I don't know why the media panders to him so much.

Dee (Sent Tuesday, January 22, 2008 8:55 AM)

Next >>

SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

Your name, city and state (John Doe, Seattle, Wash.):

Your e-mail address (jdoe@msnbc.com):

Your website (it's okay if you don't have one):

Remember me? (We'll keep it private) Remember me?

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=596752