ABOUT FIRST READ

First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



New Clinton spin on caucus delegates

Posted: Monday, March 10, 2008 10:59 AM by Chuck Todd

From NBC's Chuck Todd
A few weeks ago on one of those "set the tone for the media" conference calls by the Clinton campaign, Harold Ickes took pains to try and blur the distinction between pledged delegates (those earned in the primary/caucus process) and Superdelegates (Ickes' preferred term is "automatic delegates" though even slips and calls them "Supers"). They wanted delegates to be counted without prejudice as to how they were earned.

Well, that was the pre-March 4 Clinton spin. The new Clinton spin? Create THREE categories of delegates: pledged, caucus and supers.

Here's Hillary Clinton in an interview with Newsweek.

Asked how she can win the nomination despite the math, Clinton: "It doesn't look bleak at all. I have a very close race with Senator Obama. There are elected delegates, caucus delegates and superdelegates, all for different reasons, and they're all equal in their ability to cast their vote for whomever they choose. Even elected and caucus delegates are not required to stay with whomever they are pledged to. This is a very carefully constructed process that goes back years, and we're going to follow the process."

And here's Pa. Gov. Ed Rendell, serving as a Clinton surrogate, on "Meet the Press" Sunday, when asked about a revote in Florida and Michigan: "Caucuses are undemocratic.  That's another thing.  We talk about the superdelegates being undemocratic.  If you're a caucus, older people can't vote, older people who vote by absentee ballot.  There's no absentee ballots in a caucus.  Tim, if you're a shift worker and a lot of our workers, because they're low-income workers, are shift workers, you can't vote in a caucus.  So we want primaries.  That's the way we elect presidents.  We don't have caucuses to elect presidents in the fall.  Let's have a primary. Let's decide this.  Let's hear from the Obama campaign about a revote in Florida and Michigan."

So clearly there's a new push to somehow distinguish between delegates earned in caucuses and delegates earned in primaries. Why do I smell a new chart being developed in the Clinton delegate war room if it shows Clinton ahead somehow if just primary pledged delegates counted.

*** UPDATE *** I did the quick math, Obama's gotten more delegates via primaries than Clinton (1086 or 1088 depending on the certified California results) to Clinton's (1074 or 1076). So clearly, the caucuses are what's helped put Obama's delegate lead nearly out of reach  but even when just measuring primaries, Obama's ahead.

MAIN PAGE

Email this EMAIL THIS

Comments

What process? Sounds like the Clinton's are preparing to hoodwink the voters - again!
You all need to Google "The Hillary Movie" and watch all 9 segments. You Tube has them all there. If you watch this documentary and can still vote for her, then you need to check your morals and your head.
I can already figure out the newest phase of Hillary's "Do anything to get elected" chicanery.  She plans on stealing pledged delegates from Obama that were already chosen by the will of the people.  Watch and see.  These people have no shame!
If she wins PA, she'll only win it by a shave margin.  The rest of the states will be outright won by Obama, whatever the margin.  It's over Rendell. Go ahead and deliver your state, watch what happens afterward, and get behind Obama at Convention.
Why doesn't the Clinton campaign just come out and say it -

If you didn't vote for Hillary, then the voting process somewhow didn't count.

Only the states she won counted according to all her spokes people.

Talk about desperation.
HILLARYS BATTLE CRY.SHAME YOU DEMOCRATICS FOR NOT VOTING FOR ME!SHAME ON YOU DEMOCRATICS!
Repeat after me ... Obama is winning, Obama is winning, Obama is winning.  Spin it however you want, but if you try to steal this election, you will lose Senator Clinton and you will destroy the Democratic party in the process.
OMG - How many times can the Clinton camp move the goal posts?

Please, someone make this stop. It's getting out of hand and tearing the Democratic Party apart.
When will the spin stop? Now she says pledged delegates can change their vote. Hillary, stop dividing the party. You are losing! Think of the party and not yourself for once.
So Chuck. Does that mean that this new "chart" will become a new "dancing graphic" on the various network jumbopolititrons during primary coverage?
Why don't you guys just call her on it? Maybe ask em if they are all wearing Dramamine patches to prevent dizziness caused by spin.
Any state she loses is either TOO BLACK, TOO SMALL, TOO EDUCATED, or TOO UNDEMOCRATIC (caucus).  

And she wants to be President of the United States?

Wow...sounds like Karl Rove is running her campaign and would be her Chief of Staff.
Clinton can win in caucuses so she discredits them, just like half of the United States. What a strategy to win in November!
When Hillary started crying in my great state of NH ...She said "This is not a game" ...sure feels like they are playing a game...AAAAAAhhh ...

enough this is slimy.
I think this sucks. All I can say is if this is stolen from Obama by the superdelegates or whomever, there will be a heavy price to pay. John McCain can pull out the bible and take the oath right now. Enough said!
The Clinton math keeps getting fuzzier and fuzzier.  George Bush must be proud of her.
This is sickening. These repeated attempts to draw distinctions between types of delegates, to make those won by Clinton somehow count more than those won by Obama are facile and insulting, especially to caucus participants.

As I've said repeatedly, as a Michigan voter who cast a vote in the primary (or "beauty contest" as they love to call it), I will be incensed if the delegates are seated based on those results. I'm fine with a re-vote so long as both candidates are on the ballot, and I don't care who pays for it, but I will only consider myself truly disenfranchised if those tainted results are counted at the convention.
Hillary Clinton has shown that she alone has the authority and power to control the media and thus determine what the American people can see, hear, and think.  Given that, she MUST be made Commander in Chief of the United States.

Fine.  I'm moving to another country anyway.  I'm fed up with this irretrievably corrupt, soon-to-be-monarchy ... the American Empire.
Why is it that we hear so many surrogates come out publically for Clinton, whether they be party leaders, former politicians, etc, and we hear nothing from the Obama camp?

It's more of the same spin, and its frustrating. I feel like Obama's camp needs to be more proactive, or at least aggressively react to spin like this rather than sit and let it fester, and hope the media figures out why its wrong.

I support Obama, but I want to hear from some of his supporters who carry a little weight, like Daschle or Kennedy, or Kerry, or someone, and not just the 3am girl (which is funny and ironic, but not productive).

Let's not let the Clinton people steal this election from the change in Washington many of us seek.
...and let me say again ...this is what the superdelegates should keep in mind from states who put forth their votes...

"When a waiter screws up my order, or a host at a restaurant seats their friends before the person who is supposed to ... it will be reflected in the tip."
Why after years of caucuses, they are now "undemocratic"?  Former President Clinton won some caucuses, were they undemocratic, then? If you have 35 years of experience, then why hasn't that experience taught you how to run an effective campaign (including caucuses)?
I will start by saying that I have never been a big Hillary Clinton fan but the sleazy way they are now trying to steal, and that's what is it "stealing," the nomination is just amazing to me. Does everyone associated with her really think that just because she would be (if she were able to "steal" the nomination that is) the democratic nominee in the general election that all would be forgiven and we would all vote for her? If so, she is very mistaken. McCain may be a bad option but staying home instead of having our votes NOT COUNT once again will be! IF she steals this nomination (by that I mean she goes in with less popular vote and less delegates and the Supers overturn the will of the people) then it will be time to abandon the Democratic party and look for a new party where the will of the people is followed.  
"I did the quick math, Obama's gotten more delegates via primaries than Clinton (1086 or 1088 depending on the certified California results) to Clinton's (1074 or 1076). So clearly, the caucuses are what's helped put Obama's delegate lead nearly out of reach  but even when just measuring primaries, Obama's ahead."

Yes, but Obama would have won Minnesota, Colorado,  Washington etc. anyways which, while he would likely have won fewer delegates, would have increased his popular vote totals. Geography isn't neutral with primaries and caucuses here. It will be interesting to see if Clinton wins the popular vote and Obama wins pledged delegates, Obama's team coming up with regression analyses to show that they would have both the most votes and delegates if the caucuses were all primaries.
COME ON, SUPERDLEGATES!  MAKE YOUR MOVE.  THE TIME IS NOW!  THROW YOUR SUPPORT BEHIND ONE CANDIDATE OR THE OTHER, AND WATCH THE VOTERS (in the remaining primaries) RATIFY YOUR DECISION.  IF THEY DON'T, then THAT'S WHAT THE CONVENTION IS FOR!!
VOTE YOUR CONSCIENCE.
EXERCISE YOUR INDEPENDENT JUDGEMENT.
DO IT NOW!!!
Chuck - Good work.  Finally a courageous political director.  Please speak this column live on NBC or MSNBC.  I love you.
The Clintons are beginning to sound like closet Republicans.  

Their actions over the past few weeks look like those coming from Republican party aimed at destroying the Democratic party.  What gives?
I wonder why Obama isn't saying he has a lead in primaries? Maybe he isn't showing his hand.
The Clinton supporters NEED to speak up and tell the leaders of her campaign,"She is doing nothing more than ruining the democratic party!" If I were an active supporter of Hillary, I would be ashamed to admit it. I would be embarrassed and feel violated. If you want a person like Hillary to be our leader, then you are more confused, more misdirected, and more of a unstable than she is. When she decided to run for president, I was an active, dedicated advocate of her efforts. NOT ANY MORE!
Would someone correlate Clinton wins with the strength of the Democratic organization in the states.  I'm guessing that the correlation will be strong.

It's not caucuses, demographics, state size, whether they voted Republican, or the like.  It's whether there's an organization in place that Bill can use for Hillary.
What's with the media not calling her on this?  Has she managed to get you all scared out of your wits? I'm so very disappointed in seeing HRC's true colors.
If NBC News, and MSNBC fail to report this chicanery ON AIR with as much repetition as the "3 am ad" (which is STILL getting play) then it is certainly fair to say NBC is "in the tank" for Hillary. This attempt at "stealing" pledged delegates must be brought out into the open, and discussed in plain language that voters less savvy than those of us commenting here can understand.

The Fourth Estate is failing in its all-important job.
Let me get this straight.  The rules were fine with all parties concerned at the beginning of the process. There would be primaries and caucuses, as there have been for how many prior elections?  Florida and Michigan would not count, because they broke the rules.  And Hillary was pre-ordained to be the Democratic nominee, so it did not matter, anyway.

Then, a funny thing happened on the way to the coronation.  Hillary did not lock everything up on Super Tuesday.  And being short-sighted as she was, ran a Super Tuesday Strategy while her opponent was running a 50-State Strategy.

Lo-and-behold, Hillary finds herself behind . . . way behind.  Now, "why aren't we counting Florida,  I won them?!"  Oh, yeah, and "why are we counting all those puny states, they don't really matter?" And, by the way, "caucuses don't count, really!"

Anyway, Barack, "I know your leading NOW, but when it all rings out, will you be my VP?"

What, next Hillary?
I understand the argument that some people may not be able to attend a caucus for any number of reasons.  That is an issue the party may want to look at in the future.  However, everyone knew the rules before the game began....the caucus system has been around forever....it is not new.  So no excuses...you either win or you don't.  Furthermore, big states, little states...they are all the United States...heard that before?  Well, apparently Senator Clinton, in her partison fashion, sees not all states as equal.  Thanks Mr. Todd for your reporting....very rarely these days do we get from the media balanced reporting...you are so right...."the Clinton's set the tone for the media."  Come on guys...do not bow to their manipulation.
When will Hillary quit thinking she is the one in the lead.  She has no way of winning this and still insists she is the one to win.  THe most outrageous comment I have heard by her was saying that Barack would be a good Vice President with her as President.  The Clintons truly need to wake up and get back to reality.  This dream they are in is only hurting the democrats chances in November.
Ed Rendell Shame on you!!!! I'm from PA but now live in Las Vegas. You are embrassing to the state of PA.for saying what you said about old people can't get out and vote!!! What are you thinking???
Chad. All I want to know is. Will YOU be voting for Obama in the general election if he is the democrats nominee? You know as well as I do that many of the people who voted for Obama in the Utah caucuses were conservative crossovers, who have zero intent of voting for him in the national election. Or will you be like Chuck, and the rest of the MSNBC team and rooting for McCain?
QUIT already, Sen Monster!  You are destroying the whole PARTY!
The above posts appear to be written by a lot of people who are unfamiliar with the political process, including the original reporter. While it has generally been the case that pledged delegates cast the initial primary ballot for the candidate to whom they are pledged, no rule requires them to do so. On any subsequent ballot, delegates are absolutely free to vote for whomever they wish. For those of you who find the caucus process acceptable, think of the Convention as a giant caucus, in which delegates whose candidate does not gain viability (i.e. have enough votes to go over the top) reposition themselves and go with another candidate.
This process is essential, and should be viewed with a little bit of common sense. Without predicting or wishing for any bad news with respect to either candidate, it is not impossible that some information would come out with respect to either that might give the convention delegates pause. Were they not free to change their vote (or even vote for a candidate not currently on the scene), this would totally hobble the Democrats in November.
For some of us, it seems more than reasonable to point out that winning a caucus in Idaho or Utah is simply not the equivalent of winning a primary vote in Ohio. And, if one looks at the delegates won in Wyoming, for instance, each represents significantly fewer voters than any delegate from a primary state for either voter. Of 62,000 registered Democrats in Wyoming, despite what has been called record turnout, fewer than 10,000 showed up at the caucuses.
Those of us who back a particular candidate are hardly likely to be rational about this stuff, but party insiders who want to win in November may pay more attention to these small details.
I am sick of Hillary--she will stop at nothing to win. I can't believe I ever liked the Clintons. They are truly bad. I wish those old ladies in the assisted living and nursing homes would get informed and see how desperate and power-hungry Hillary really is. By the way, what foreign policy experience does she have? Did she negotiate treaties as first lady?  
Cj, Obama HAS won more primaries.  And more caucuses, and more states and the popular vote.  Funny how the Clintons and all their fans don't get it.  This election is just that and ELECTION.  People go out and vote, be it caucus or primary and then whomever has the most delegates wins.  It has been this way for a LONG time and the CLintons, as disgusting and pathetic as they may be are NOT going to change this.

Billary and her little team of doushbags can spin like spiders all day long for the next 6 months, but it's not going to matter.  She has already lost.  Her little plan of begging the supers to give it to her even though she is not who the people want will not work.  SORRY HILLARY!  It's time to quit because you REALLY look like a SORE LOSER and OH SO SELFISH.

Oh yeah, you Billary supporters may want to stop wasting your money.  She WON"T win.  But I guess she does want you to pay ehr back for the 5 mill she loaned herself. HA HA!!
OBAMA 08!!
How much does Obama pay you "Obama supporters" to overflow all the websites with your hatred for Hillary? You are just stupid school-kids getting paid by Obama!

I'm sick and tired of your self righteous crap!

The only smart choice is

HILLARY 08!!!
If you can't win by the rules, change them!  Hillary, hasn't anyone told you you can't DO that unless you are IN power?  You make Putin look like a democrat!  Just keep it going Barak.  She's cooked.
THE CLINTONS ARE ASSUMING THAT THE VOTERS ARE STUPID, UNTHINKING, ILLOGICAL MORONS!!!

People - stop for a moment and look at the parallels with Bush-Rove Politics:

1) Hillary has started to use the fear card - she has not said or shown anything that conclusively proves that she has the temperment, the judgment or the RELEVENT experience to "answer that 3am call" NOTHING, yet we are supposed to vote for her because she showed a scary ad and said she was qualified without showing use any substance behind that claim - CLINT-ROVIAN

2) She has taken on the tactic of repeating a lie over and over and over in the hopes that if she does it enough, the voters will believe it is true.  Bush called this "catipulting the propaganda"

Example:

Propoganda: Barack (the FRONT runner) should agree to be her running mate. Fact: SHE IS LOSING  

Propoganda: Hillary has "35 years of experience" Fact: she has 8 years (I'm being generous) of experience in elected office, and Obama has over 12 years of experience in elected office

Propoganda: Hillary wins the states we need to win the election.
Fact: Hillary wins a lot of big blue states by very small margins (except New York, her home state) that would go for the Democratic nominee anyway...as for Ohio and Pennsylvania - they are not going to vote for free trade McCain -- on the other hand -- LOOK AT OBAMA'S VOTE TOTALS in the red states they are extraordinary, he appeals to young voters, independents, and even some Republicans (who are not voting for Hillary to help their party) He could put more states into play - this job is the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES - not the President of the blue states....that is the problem we have NOW - George W. Bush acts like he is the President of the Red states only...do we really want to continue this???

3) Hillary is trying to change all the rules in the middle of the game. NOW she wants to disenfranchise those people who came and caucused.

4) Her political career, like that of George W. Bush and Carl Rove, has been wrought with scandal....I could go on and on and on...

Voters of Mississippi, Pennsylvania and all of the other states yet to vote - Please PROVE HILLARY WRONG!!
Caucuses have been suspect from the beginning - and this election cycle should demonstrate they are not a true democratic forum. Why doesn't someone (press??) break down what Obama has paid for each caucus delegate he has pledged to him to date?  He has set up very expensive operations in small states to garner these votes, yet it really looks like he has been gaming the system to his advantage with this small state strategy. Isn't this what the superdelagates are to "protect" us from?
Super-delegates were instituted to exercise their judgment so that a fringe candidate (think a one-issue movement, for example) would not "hijack" the party and lose an election for not being sufficiently democratic or mainstream, as the case may be.  In 2008, we have anything besides such a candidate in Sen. Obama - he is mainstream and broad-based in terms of both platform (issues) and constituency. In this situation, super delegates need to use judgment wisely, where wise isn't just political loyalties.
She is outrageous. The only way she will win this nomination is by buying off the superdelegates. It would be the second great tragedy of our time behind the Irag war. We will loose (more) faith in democracy and the system. It's in the numbers already that she cannot win. Why is there even a conversation about a  Clinton -Obama ticket? that is outrageous. She is as sneaky as they get and the press buys it.  
I would like to reply to Gov. Ed Rendell's statement that caucuses are undemocratic and do not allow absentee ballots.  I voted in a caucus for the first time this year in Maine.  I have voted in prior years in primaries in R.I.  I found the caucus to be very democratic. I actually felt like my vote counted because I could see the process at work on a small scale.  Also, Maine did allow absentee ballots, although I do not know what would happen to votes that went to candidates who did not reach the threshold.  I feel that the Clinton campaign is trying to minimize my vote and it will be very difficult for me to vote for her if she does win the nomination.
Shame on you all Clinton haters! Say what you may, America will NEVER elect a black president, period. Keep on believing that the so-called cross-over repubiCONs (ObamaCONS) will vote for hin in November. If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn so sell to you. General election is won based on electoral college. If Obama is the candidate, count New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Florida, California (with the hispanic votes)among others in McCains column and that means game over for the Democrats. We may hope (and yes we can) all we want as Democrats, the facts remains that there is no way in hell Obama will become the next president, except by wishing and hoping for it but in reality never!
Concerned Black Democrat

P.S. What if white Democrats vote for Clinton 80% of the time as black voters do, will we be screaming racism? Just a food for thought.    
Guess What Hillary,
If you want to be President you should care about all the states in the union.  Does anyone outside of these "big states" understand how insulting it is to be told your state does not matter?  Every state Barack Obama matters because it is part of the USA!!
She will tear this party apart if she continues this.
Someone has to stop her.
In Wyoming there are 59,000 registered Democrats.  In Saturday's caucus around 6000 or so turned up to vote.  Anyone who thinks a result like that is a mandate of a state's support for a candidate is deluded.  It doesn't matter which side wins,  caucuses are a poor gauge and should be eliminated.

The delegate system also needs to be eliminated.  Popular vote should be the determinant as to who gets nominated.  Every state would be important, and it would clear the way for a national primary instead of this b.s. we have to put up with.
You can't use the popular vote as a yardstick, because we don't know what the actual popular vote would have been in states that held caucuses. Just another slimy tactic for Billary.  And the MSM is just feeding into this.  And I agree with one posting:  I might have voted for Billary in the general a couple of months ago; but w/ the distorted, slimy, tactics she uses, I would never, never vote for her now.  Polly, Mass (59 years old)


SEND A COMMENT

PLEASE READ: All comments must be approved before appearing in the thread; time and space constraints prevent all comments from appearing. We will only approve comments that are directly related to the blog, use appropriate language and are not attacking the comments of others.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):

TRACKBACKS

Trackbacks are links to weblogs that reference this post. Like comments, trackbacks do not appear until approved by us. The trackback URL for this post is: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/trackback.aspx?PostID=749242

First Read e-mail alerts


Sign up for First Read alerts
The first place for key political news and analysis

Syndicate This Site

Add First Read to your news reader:
live.com xml
myyahoo msn
bloglines newsgator
google