The delegate fight

Posted: Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:15 AM by Domenico Montanaro

The Washington Post looks at the potential superdelegate battle. "A core group of superdelegates and party leaders -- he mentioned former vice president Al Gore, former senator John Edwards and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson -- could come to the candidates and try to establish ground rules of decorum for the remaining contests. There would have to be a lot of advance work before any visible meeting, Ross says, because once there is a visible meeting an outcome is expected by the public. And if none is produced, that only reinforces the idea of chaos and intractability."

The New York Times’ Healy notes both campaigns are fighting over the definition of "winner" regarding their victories -- with Clinton's campaign making an Electoral College argument (because of their victories in some key big states) and Obama making a 50-state, new map argument (because of some of their victories).

Despite not having the support of the state's House Democrats, Bill Nelson and the Florida Democratic Party apparently are close to submitting a new mail-in primary plan to the DNC, the New York Times writes. "The state party would most likely submit the proposal to Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, by week’s end, said the spokesman, Dan McLaughlin. Mr. Nelson is a supporter of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.”

VIDEO: March 11: Sen. Bill Nelson, D-FL, joins the Morning Joe team to argue for a re-vote in the Democratic primaries of Florida and Michigan.

“‘Unless Howard Dean changes his mind and seats the Florida delegation as apportioned by the January primary,’ Mr. McLaughlin said, ‘this is the most fair and inclusive way to allow Floridians to have their voices heard.’”

“But after meeting with Mr. Nelson on Tuesday night, Florida’s Democratic members of the House of Representatives added a serious new wrinkle by announcing they were unanimously opposed to a mail-in contest. They did not elaborate, but released a statement that said, ‘Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind.’ The statement also said the delegation was committed to working with state and national Democrats and the two candidates ‘to reach an expedited solution that ensures our 210 delegates are seated.’”

The Obama campaign expressed concerns over a mail-in vote, as did Clinton surrogate Ed Rendell on NBC’s Meet the Press.

Of course, if Florida struggles holding normal elections, will they really be successful holding their first mail-in primary?

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Comments

I can't believe it's come down to this. One candidate is trying to unify democrats, republicans, and independents...all states and all stereotyped categorical divides. The other candidate is ruthlessly dividing the Democratic party.

It's a shame that, with so many aces in their favor, the Democrats have let it come to this. Hillary is a divider and will not win a general election against McCain. She has played dirty politics from Day One...Travelgate, Paul v. Clinton, hidden tax returns and White House records, just to name a minor few.

Please, PLEASE, let's insist she get out!

Jaime, Lantana, FL (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:32 AM)

I don't trust FL with a regular election, much less a mail-in election.

Sorry, FL, let this be a lesson. DON'T VOTE REPUBLICAN.

adam/Brooklyn New York City (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:37 AM)

in '04, John Kerry lost to Bush, and won most of the big key states, except for OH and TX, in this so-called "electoral college" strategy. Bush essentially won the election with the same states Obama is winning now. Recent general election cycles demonstrate that the Dems need to explore new or regain old ground, like the Southern Democratic states that have voted for the GOP. This electoral college thingy is just protecting the "business as usual" politicians.

David C. Indianapolis, IN (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:44 AM)

I say this, once again. The people of Florida have to hold THEIR Gov. totally accountable for this mess. The STATE officials knew a year and a half ago what the consequences would be if they decided to move up their primaries......their votes would not count. And they AGREED to it. Game over. Vote them out of office if you don't like it, but quit whining about THIS primary. They broke the rules. Period. Quit holding the nation hostage (again) simply because you can't get the voting right in your state (again).

Diane from Illinois (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:56 AM)

.
HILLARY WILL HAVE TO WORK EVEN HARDER TO "STEAL" THE NOMINATION>
.

GO OBAMA, NJ (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 9:56 AM)

The Clinton camp makes an electoral college argument? Sorry, Sen Clinton, that's simply not the way it works. You might stomp your feet, cry, scream, pout, hold your breath until you turn blue... whatever it is that you want to do. But it isn't going to change the fact that it simply doesn't work that way.

Paul Miller, Woodbridge, VA (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:05 AM)

Why should Hillary keep votes that she received illegally? The 2 states KNEW what they were doing to the people (the voters) when they deliberately moved the dates up. Now, THEY don't want to have to face their own citizens and feel their anger--so they are trying to weasel out by thinking of some way to re-do it all. Is this how they raise their kids? Tell them what will happen if they go ahead and do something they aren't supposed to do, then find a way later to make the punishment not count?

Cathy, VA (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:05 AM)

I think that if the House Dem. delegation in FL is opposed to a revote, then they are the ones preventing the FL delegation from being seated. They are the ones disenfranchising FL voters.

It is incredibly unfair to all of a sudden, count the January vote, which was in flagrant violation of the DNC rules. And to not consider other options. Are these FL democrats above the rest of us? Do the rules not apply to them?

Lisa in New Britain, CT (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:11 AM)

Just cut the florida vote in half as they did for the republicans and move on.

Note popular vote underestimates the caucus states

dennis kim, los angeles, ca (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:12 AM)

If they are going to re-vote in Michigan and Florida, then they have to put Edwards, Kucinich, Richardson, and anyone else in the race at the time back on the ballot. Then, when they are done with that, they will have to redo the vote in all other states as well because I am sure people who voted for Hillary are regretting their vote. So, redo the other states and people can vote against hate and racism and vote for a new type of politics.

Face the facts Clinton bobbleheads (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:13 AM)

If the Florida dems (I guess its the House dems here) won't have a redo and want their delegation to seated, then the only fair thing is probably a 50/50 split. Or they can seat them at the current pledged delegate split (which favors Obama). Those are the only fair solutions I see if they won't consider a revote but want their delegates seated.

Do we want Hillary to get the nomination via a blackmail sort of approach (the blackmailing being done by the Fla. dems not the Clinton campaign here)?

Lisa in New Britain, CT (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:14 AM)

Please let's have re-votes in Florida and Michigan. Just make it very quick. Also to speed it up, I suggest no campaigning be allowed; there is no way the voters don't know the issues and candidates by now. Campaigning at this point would only add heat and not light. The fastest way would be to vote by internet. To avoid any issue of fraud the balloting could be open, not secret. The voting could start now and continue until a deadline date and time with the votes counted and verified continuously. We could have it over in less than a week from now. Make it winner take all so the nomination can be decided quicker.

nuanced (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:16 AM)

Look why waste tax payers money, lets just give 50/50 and let this primary end, because if it continues the party is done and I vote for McCain. Clinton staying is this race is tearing our party apart making both sides, eat at each other like a cancer let this end hear and now, Obama is going to win let this end today and lets win the presidency for the good of America and her people.

loren (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:18 AM)

IF they do have a re-vote, then only "the people's" vote should count and NOT the Superdelegates. They're the ones who created this mess in the first place.
Just a side note - Not sure anyone noticed, but I watched a show on C-Span over the weekend, and reps from the DNC said they were going to award "bonus" delegates to states who hold primaries late in the season...the later it's held, the more extra delegates awarded. I heard that Fla could get 30 "bonus" delegates (didn't hear # for Mich). Since Fla & Mich chose to hold their primaries in Jan, this should not apply. IF it does, then something smells.

50+ Woman in Danvers, Mass (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:20 AM)

I'd like to see Obama use his surrogates. If they put out another option, I think it would change the direction of the argument, and not harm him personally. Split them 50/50, seems fair enough to me, they broke the rules. (Campaigning against Clinton for the nomination is like playing a board game with a little kid: one lets them bend the rules--maybe it's because she's a girl, errr woman). A use for them in which they don't have to be attack dogs, like Clinton has them do. Like I said and F-R alluded to somewhere, any re-vote would not be fair to Obama as people would vote based on this debacle, not the issues.

Nicholas: Minnesota (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:30 AM)

This issue is ridiculous. I'm a Floridian who did not vote because we were told it would not count. Would I like the opportunity to vote for Obama? Yes. But if the state refuses a re-vote in a reasonable time frame it won't bother me. But the original results cannot stand. I think they should seat the elected Florida delegation for the purposes of representation on things like the platform only, but not for voting on the presidential nominee. Florida broke the rules agreed to by the candidates and the DNC so there has to be some penalty.

Marc V, Fort Lauderdale, FL (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:31 AM)

50+ Woman in Danvers, Mass

--That's a very interesting proposition, and I kind of like it. They broke the rules, so strip the supersdelegates. That way the DNC enforces something. I like the one too.

Nicholas: Minnesota (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:33 AM)

If Florida and Michigan are not allowed to vote then we will see a huge surge toward the republican party. I, for one have had it with the superdelegates, the caucauses and the punishment of states that changed their date. Why do we allow tiny stated like Iowa and
New Hampshire to decide the candidate? If MIchigan and Florida had not been excluded the whole thing would be over by now. The Republican Party looks pretty good at this point - vote, winner take all, move on...McCain also looks pretty good at this point. So, Dems can crown obama or Hillary can fight to win but I think I am going to go Republican - less emotional.

Jack, Burlington, Vt. (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:33 AM)

A re-vote will only be adding to the headache! I believe the fair solution would be to split the popular vote and the delegates. The outcome of a re-vote would not reflect a meaningful difference. This would save time, money and allow us to end this battle thats starting to wear me out!

tj stelten prior lake mn (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:34 AM)

Senator Bill wants to deliver FL to Hillary. Too bad the math prevents her from taking the lead even if it were redone. It's over (unless more Hillary surrogates come out and cry "reverse racism" and "we're the victims here").

Ian (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:34 AM)

For some reason, the idea of a mail-in vote makes me very nervous. I wish there were a clear and easy way to let the people of Florida and Michigan have their voices heard, but I fear that this rush to have mail-in primaries will cause headaches for us all.

Enrique, Chicago (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:39 AM)

Electing our President is the single most effective way to change the status quo, not just of government, but of our society, of what passes for acceptable behaviour among adults, how people view each other. Enough with the egoistic bullying. We need to read Eckhart Tolle and elect Barack Obama.

don slowik (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:41 AM)

"in '04, John Kerry lost to Bush, and won most of the big key states, except for OH and TX, in this so-called "electoral college" strategy. Bush essentially won the election with the same states Obama is winning now. Recent general election cycles demonstrate that the Dems need to explore new or regain old ground, like the Southern Democratic states that have voted for the GOP. This electoral college thingy is just protecting the "business as usual" politicians."

Should I even have to point out the flawed logic here? Look at the two states that you yourself picked out as Kerry losing. OH! TX! Gee, those couldn't make a difference again, could they? If you want to point out any plan as ridiculous, look at Obama. His "new map" plan seems to want to put red states back in play. Like, for example, Mississippi that he just won. The numbers look impressive 400,000 turn out. Just 60,000 short of turned out to vote for Kerry in the G.E.. That looks impressive until you note the fact that 460,000 is just shy of half of the 900,000 that voted for Bush in the state in '04. Winning small, red states are not going to do shit in the general election. Theres a reason the general election is looked at only in terms of battleground states- those are the ones that make the difference. The map hasn't changed, its not going to, thats logic, not "old politics".
Instead of trying to look at any dumb angle you can, try using logic to see which map is actually going to come into play come November, once the honeymoon period with your rockstar has died down.

Dan, Columbus, OH (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:50 AM)

Please note all who are ranting at Florida - the Dems did not decide to vote early - the Republican controlled legislature voted the date change. The dems tried two separate times to get their date moved back and were refused. So why did the dnc punish them? This brings back the horror of the hanging chads and Republican intervention in the state of Fla. They have done it again and yet you all belly ache about Clinton - She didn't campaign there. But for all the obama freaks - he did. He ran tv ads that covered the north part of Florida - although they technically were from the tv stations in Georgia. I wish this election were over - because the reality is that the real democratic base - that has paid their dues, and is a bit older - will not support the unfairness of this denial of votes. Why shouldn't the vote count - they were all on the ballot in Florida.
Now let the sputtering begin..

Jack, Burlingotn, Vt (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:52 AM)

Same ol' folks, doing same ol' same ol' politics.

When will she retire from crafting things that divide people, let alone her own party.

Obama got game!

ChiChi, atlanta, GA (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:57 AM)

I think Jimmy Carter was Our first black Pres. Obama would be our second. We all know how great he was. Why is it racist for white voter voting for a white But its not racist for black voter voting for a black

bill johnson (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:57 AM)

Mark V, Ft. Lauderdale, FL

As a fellow Floridian I agree with your comment entirely.

Thank you for posting it!!!!

Independent Voter, Stuart, FL (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:58 AM)

I do not understand why all the attention on Pennsylvania with its 188 delegates and its expected win by Hillary Clinton. Two weeks following Pennsylvania, both Indiana and North Carolina vote with a combined 219 delegates and Obama is expected to win them both.
It is time for the Clintons to concede and the party to rally around Barack Obama for President.

Stephen in Miami (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 10:59 AM)

In my humble opinion I think they should shelf the re vote idea as it doesn't seem to be practical. However, they can't seat the delegates as is. What they should consider is taking away all the superdelegates from both states so the elected officials who helped create the mess have no say. They should also reduce the remaining pledged delegates by half (similar to the republicans) and seat the delegates based on the vote. For MI you would have to give all non-committed delegates to Obama. This would keep the voters from being "disenfrabchised" while punishing the politicians. With the reduced number of delegates it also wouldn't alter the delegate race that much. It still hurts obama slightly, but it would get rid of the distraction.

Jawad (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:02 AM)

Obama just give her Florida and split Michigan 50/50. You will still be leading in delegates and the popular vote. The "supers" won't hold it against you but instead will see what a statesman your are and this nightmare gets closer to ending. That way all the delegates are seated and you look like the unifier once again. Show them that you are good for the party, since we already know that you will help get a majority in congress and that Hillary can't.

S. Ruff (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:12 AM)

To the other states that went early---their votes should not count either.Iowa,New Hampshire,etc.If were going to be fair lets be fair to all.I have already decided to not vote in the general--my vote did not count anyway and my entire family and friends voted for Clinton.If Obama makes it to the general do not worry I will not ccast my useless vote.I am more interested in local candidates now--mmore important to me as Mccain will win.

HT (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:13 AM)

Republicans we need Florida and Michigan! If we work together with Hillary we can and combine our voting tricks and unfair influence and might be able to get Hillary as the nominee. Mccain will beat her beat her in the general election and even if he does not Hillary will play ball with our lobbyist and special interests. Lets go Florida ! If we can steal It for Bush It a general campaign for president with established rules and guidlines we can sure steal it easy now in the confusion of a revote!

karl Rove, Washinton DC (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:16 AM)

I believe with all the sophisticated technology available to us. There has to be a great amount of young minds out there that could devise an electronic phone-in system. Calls would be tracked and recorded just as many companies do with phone payments everyday. The person would have to identify themselves and provide other pertinent information. They would also be informed that they face criminal charges if they misrepresent themselves. Each tracking station would be given a limited amount of names and votes to track, so not to overwhelm them. I understand there are 4 million registered democrats in Florida alone. The only way I believe a mail-in would work is if the USPS designates a day for pick-up of votes and not allow them to be placed in the mail. Each voter should receive some type of reciept to verify that their vote was counted properly.

Val, Blue Bell, PA (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:17 AM)

I JUST WANTED TO COMMENT ON OBAMA :)
Bahama for Obama!!! Obama has not only impacted the united states for change. He has also impacted individuals world wide...everywhere people are declaring change..he is a very inspirational person, whether win or lose he has made history..and is a great and strong man...i love obama he has inspired me to pursue my dream of motivational speaking and impacting my bahamaland for the better despite my troubled past and circumstances. i believe not only in change but CHANCE! GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO MAKE THE CHANGE AMERICA.

von, Freeport, Bahamas (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:22 AM)

Blacks have always voted unquestionablly for the Democratic party. No Democrat in recent years has won the Presidency without the black votes,Kennedy, Johnson,Carter and most recently,Bill Clinton who called himself "the Black President"These men were all white. The blacks were voting for their party's choice. Now they do the same thing,voting for their choice and suddenly, Bill Clinton and Ferarro play the race card.They are destroying the Democratic Party.People open your eyes.Don't allow them.For them, it is their way or no way.Let's prevail. We have a chance to change Washington. Let's unite the country.There is no room for divisiveness and bigotry

Jim Page New city NY (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:22 AM)

HEY CHUCK,

The Clintons are now going after committed delegates to get what they want. When do you guys start reporting about her hidden taxes, white house papers, donor list etc.
You owe it to Schuster. Hillary is all about herself

Nj (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:22 AM)

von, Freeport, Bahamas (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:22 AM)

I live in Boynton Beach Fl and I did not vote, because I knew it would not count. It would be a waste of time to redo this now. They need to split the votes in half and move on. We need to UNITE and win in Novemeber. Please.

S. Zachary Boynton Beach FL (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:25 AM)

Ask Sen. Nelson and other Clinton surrogates if they want Democratic President Obama or Republican President McCain. Senator Nelson is working feverishly to deliver Florida to Hilary Clinton as Jeff Bush delivered to his brother in 2000. Please tell Sen. Nelson that this is a new day. God will not allow them to steal this nomination from Sen. Obama. In OBAMA we TRUST! If they want quick, equitable and fair resolution for this mess, SPLIT the delegates equally among Obama and Clinton.

George, Dallas, Texas (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:25 AM)

Clinton is using dirty politics, back-room super-delegate deals, re-defining long-established roles of pledged delegates, primary votes from crooked Republicans, and legal challenges-by-proxy to steal the nomination

And the national media is complicit in picking up story lines like the percentage of the white vote that Clinton took in Ohio and Mississippi . . . WAKE UP PEOPLE! . . . THOSE VOTES WERE REPUBLICANS WHO CAN'T WAIT TO GET CLINTON IN THE GENERAL ELECTION . . . they know that her almost 50% negative rating will assure them a November win

Mark my words . . . if Clinton steals the nomination, this will be the biggest Rebublican beat-down since Nixon/McGovern

John, Knoxville (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:32 AM)

I think all the superdelegates should come out NOW and place their votes. If know one gets to 2025 let the other states vote and who ever is ahead is the winner. I think this way the people who voted will count. As far as the votes in FL and MI the DNC has no one to blame but themselves. They should pay for their stupidity. All the talk about which way the super delegates will vote is weakening chances for the canidate to win in the general. Why drag this thing on and on while the Republican McCain can start his fall campaign now.

NanaforObama (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:32 AM)

There are no do overs in politics. You don't like the way things are, vote. You like things as they are, vote. If you don't vote, don't whine!!

Phred, NH (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:35 AM)

Do the math… If the Florida primary, as it was held, was counted, Clinton’s 50% win would net about 105 delegates. Obama’s 33% would net 70 giving Clinton a 35 delegate advantage. In Michigan, with no Obama on the ballot, Clinton only won 55% of the vote. This would net approximately 86 additional delegates. This amounts to a net of 121 delegates for Clinton.

Depending on which media outlet you believe, Obama has about 1,400 committed delegates and Clinton about 1,245. Adding the net advantage of 121 to Clinton’s numbers this would still leave her at least 34 delegates behind Obama.

The Clinton people who want new elections should be careful what they wish for. When Florida and Michigan held their primaries Obama’s flame was not very bright. I seriously doubt that Florida would give Senator Clinton a 17 point victory today. Michigan only gave her a 15 point victory over “uncommitted.” Does anyone believe that Clinton could beat today’s Obama by more than she could beat “nobody”?

Guy D. Brunkild Manitoba Canada (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:38 AM)

Look, Neither campain is likely to be happy w/ a resolution that benefits their opponent. This leaves little choice but to NOT seat the delegations (no Rules change mid-game) and make it crystal clear who, with breakdown of all the state legislative votes(who voted for/against) and Governor Signatures, that went into moving the Primaries up against the known rules, were responsable for this mess. Let the voters in these important states know exactly who disenfranchised them. Only then will states know the rules have teeth.

If it is absolutely unavoidable seating these delegations then, Use standing Jan. 29 results, Seat 25% of Fla delegates(still more clout that any pre-Feb 5 state, which was their orig. plan)and strip the Superdelegates, They sat by and let this fiasco come about, Next time they'll use their clout to avoid this. Note, this Makes Clinton Campaign happy by seating more Del's for them and putting another state in their column legitimatly, and keeps the delegate gain low enough to be somewhat acceptable to the Obama Campaign.
Which brings us to Michigan, Similar rules; 25% Delegates, Strip Superdel's for the same reason as above same tranparency as to who got the state into this mess. Give the Obama Camp the Uncommitted percentage, Keep Clinton percentage as is and again, this Makes Clinton Campaign happy by seating more Del's for them and putting another state in their column legitimatly, as well as a likely Obama win avoided with the large Af-Am vote, and this keeps the delegate gain low enough to be somewhat acceptable (& absorbable)to the Obama Campaign.

The net result is Quick resolution after a little number crunching(Approx 15 delegate net for Clinton). One less thing for the Party to be divided on, Real consequences for states(& State Reps, Gov.'s) that thought the rules didn't apply to them, and I'll repeat to stress Importance, Quick resolution.

We have six weeks of news cycles Until PA. It would be better for the party to use this time to show some outward UNITY. Also after these 6 long weeks we'd like to have the FULL roadmap as to where the contest ends and the General Election contest begins.

chris, NH (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:40 AM)

Hello fellow Democrats,

We are in all of this, and will be for the next 6 months, because the candidate in second place is a Clinton. After 12 victories in a row, and after erasing Clinton's Ohio "momentum" (delegate-wise) by winning Wyoming and Mississippi, Barack Obama should be the winner by now.
Even CNN's John King yesterday made a simulation where Clinton would win PA, FL & MI by 60%-40% and still she doesn't overcome Obama's delegate lead.
Does anybody in the Democratic leadership is giving a hard look at this and start pressing the Clintons to let it go? Why does the MSM keeps giving a pass and playing along with the Clintons when the facts are so evident?
Hillary Clinton, I suppose, is betting on 3 things for her survival (no matter how the Party is damaged and ruined in the process): a) The Superdelegates will come to rescue her; b) To bet that in the next 6 months before the Convention Obama will make or say something really-really stupid or damaging that will make him un-electable; and c) To have people like Geraldine Ferraro to attack, divide and throw filth to bring down your opponent.
The game was over before Ohio & Texas for Hillary. And that is the only TRUTH.
Please, start pressing the Mainstream Media and all elected Democrat to spread the truth.
Or prepare yourself for 6 months of chaos and self-destruction.
Happy Convention '08.

John Duffy (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:07 PM)

I wonder if Geraldine Ferraro would now say that Lt. Gov. David A. Paterson of New York only got where he is because he is black or legally blind. Geraldine Ferraro may have been chosen to be Walter Mondale's running mate in 1984 because of her gender, but no one chose Barack Obama to run for president. That he did on his own!

Suzie (Sent Wednesday, March 12, 2008 12:13 PM)

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