The spin goes on

Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:07 PM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under: 2008, 2008 Clinton

From NBC's John Boxley
EN ROUTE TO INDIANA -- The new spin we are hearing from the Clinton campaign today is that more people have now cast votes for Clinton than Obama, when you include MI and FL AND exclude the caucuses which Obama has dominated. (See earlier post on the popular vote logic.)

The campaign also said, fundraising continues to grow, now at $3.5 million since last night and rising with the campaign claiming that 80 percent of these donations are from first-time contributors.

*** UPDATE *** The Clinton campaign adds that Michigan and Florida are counted in their numbers and so are Obama's caucuses.

But, as First Read crunches the numbers, we ask: Is the Clinton campaign giving Obama zero votes in Michigan since his name wasn't on the ballot? Because if Clinton gets the approximately 328,000 in Michigan and Obama were given credit for the 237,000-plus "uncommitted" votes, she still wouldn't have enough votes to overtake his current popular vote lead even with Florida factored in. But if she were to take the state 328,000 to 0 she'd take the popular vote lead.

*** UPDATE 2 *** The campaign confirms that this is, in fact, how they have figured the math. Their view, roughly, is that Clinton got 328,000 votes that were certified; Obama got none. Of course, Obama's name wasn't on the ballot. And that's their point exactly.

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Comments

Hillary is first class. And by first class I mean that's where she's sitting as we send her packing back to Little Rock.

This thing is so over (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:56 PM)

She has deficit spent her campaign. Is that what she intends to do as President? Nothing will change!

OREGON TAXPAYER (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:57 PM)

GO HILLARY, made a contribution last night and make another by the end of the week.

Robin (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:58 PM)

Pathetic. Completely dishonest and pathetic. I really need to get away from this crap for awhile before hypertension sets in. I know this is really fun for people like Patty in SD and Pat Huntington because this has turned more into a WWE match or a stupid daytime soap opera than a democratic primary. People would rather choose a side and let the unintelligent insults fly rather than look at this entire process as the joke that it is. Why don't we take all this anger and animosity towards two candidates with pretty much exactly the same ideology and voting records and direct it towards the DNC for letting there own candidates campaign managers break agreements and spin things like counting Michigan votes? Does even the most die-hard Clinton supporter think this is fair? Have we become so beat down and brain washed for the last 8 years that we just swallow lies and move on with our lives? WAKE UP!

Mark, Seattle (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:58 PM)

I dont know how Clinton voters can live with their choice. Where does one start on this?:

- not adding caucus states (expertes have argued they should even be multiplied by a factor if they are being used as a reflection of the popular vote in the state)

- adding votes from a State where your opponent was not voted for (and which you said wouldnt count, and which most people chose to stay at home on - Michcigan and Florida are the only two states where republican voters outnumbre democratic)

Even the NY Times has turned against this politician. We will get a woman president someday but we want a good one not one from the same lying dynasty.

J. Richter (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:59 PM)

Why are you reporting the spin when you know that it is not accurate?

Bee (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:59 PM)

This is why I can't stand Hillary Clinton. She agreed, along with, Biden, Obama, Richardson, Edwards and the others that Florida and Michigan wasn't going to count. Now they want to count them despite Obama not even being on the ballot. Hillary, you can talk all you want aobut Florida and Michigan, but you too agreed they wouldn't count. Before the campaign started, you wouldn't admit your Iraq war was wrong, then in the middle of the campaign, you became in peace dove. A week ago you transitioned from a dove to a hawk and now you want obliterate Iran. When Hillary back sup her campaign, and it WILL happen, she will be judged on her leadership to repair this sinking ship wounded from her "kitchen sink campaign".

Disgusting!

Wayne Austin TX (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:00 PM)

Clinton aids to Clinton" what do we do now boss. Were broke and we can't catch up in delegates"! Clinton to aids screw the voters and the delegates tell them we are winning. They and the media are stupid enough to beleive us.

candi california (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:00 PM)

I seriously doubt the claim by the Clinton camp about new donors. They are probably donors who already contributed to her campaign before but were holding off to see if she won PA and when she did they started to give again

Anthony -Minneapolis,MN (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:01 PM)

The Clintons continue to re-define success, and the Democrats for some reason following them.

Mitch Lews, Wash. DC (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:02 PM)

I think Clinton's need to stop whining about CAUCUSES, MOVEON.org and just move on to CHAPAQUA..

JR (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:02 PM)

Are they out of the red yet? I think they might be spent into Obamalivian.

Dave, NY, NY (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:02 PM)

So, let me see if I can follow their deluded logic. If you include the votes that everyone had long-ago agreed would not be included in the total and exclude the legitimate votes cast in caucuses then they are ahead in the popular vote. What's next, they only include the votes that take place before brunch on Tuesday afternoons? Maybe only the votes of those with XX chromosomes should count in the faulty logic. How about if we only count the people that have voted for Clinton's campaign, she'd be winning that popular vote by a land-slide. Give me a break, you can't claim to be against disenfranchising voters in FL and MI and then actively state that caucus voters don't count. Hypocritical comes to mind.

Kevin, Orlando, FL (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:02 PM)

So if it's true, and correct me on this if I am wrong, Chris Matthews says her campaign costs a million dollars a day? If that's the case, she's got 3.5 days worth since last night.

Joy, Springfield, IL (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:03 PM)

count Florida & Michigan BUT THEN YOU MUST COUNT CAUCUS STATES!!!!!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shawn-christensen/dont-be-fooled-obama-is-a_b_96118.html

goodwin, arizona (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:04 PM)

Have you seen the new American Flad... it has 15 stars on it... the states that Hillary won... they are in the shape of a giant "H", because as her arguement goes... those are the only ones that matter.

So to the other states that she has not won... you do not matter.

Personally, if I were in what Hillary calls a small or insignificant state, I would feel insulted. How can the nation elect someone if they do not care about more than half the states... and people question Barak's patriotism because he does not wear a flag pin... which is worse, disregarding states and citizens or not wearing a flag pin (one that was probably made in China).

Betsy Ross (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:04 PM)

Typical Clinton spin of definition of legitimate vote, oral stimulation is not a sex act, 'ALONE' does not mean 'alone' if other people are in the same building, the word 'IS' is subject to interpretation, lieing is not perjury if you are the president and all votes should count unless I need the Superdelegates to overturn those votes to make me the nominee....Lets get real and choose a nominee who has some sense of ethics.

E. B. Kingman,Az. (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:04 PM)

Here is a thought I have had, and I wonder why nobody is talking about it. Democrats remember what it felt like 8 years ago when, although Al Gore won the popular vote, he still lost the election due to the way our election process is set up. We felt like somehow the Republicans had pulled a fast one on us, we felt like we had been cheated out of a win! Can you imagine how many Americans will feel disenfranchised if Obama wins the popular vote, but the Party officials decide to give the win to Clinton? The people have spoken, more Americans want Obama to be our candidate. Its time for Clinton to recognize that and stop tearing the Democratic Party apart!

Ryan O'Shea

R. O'Shea (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:05 PM)

The New Clinton Mathematics:

So basically....."if you include all the votes for me in states where we were not supposed to campaign, but did.....and exclude all the people who voted for him....I am ahead. Woohoo!"

Ron Jeffers, Arizona Independent (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:05 PM)

I think even I could win Michigan if mine was the only name on the ballot as was Sen. Clinton's case.

Bruce St. Helens, OR (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:06 PM)

TO CHUCK TODD:
==============
ELECTABILITY IN NOVEMBER IS THE KEY ISSUE.
I KNOW YOU'RE GOOD WITH NUMBERS,AND YOU'RE RIGHT FOR
THE NOMINATION FIGHT.BUT WHEN IT'S OVER,WE'RE GOING TO
TALK ABOUT ELECTABILITY ISSUE.
I KNOW I'M AHEAD ON THIS GAME BUT IF THE DEMOCRATS WANT TO WIN IN NOVEMBER,MUST TAKE VERY SERIOUS THE ELECTABILITY ISSUE.

NICHOLAS (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:06 PM)

Ron Jeffers, Arizona Independent (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:06 PM)

The Clinton Campaign can spin all they want about FL. But not everyone who voted in the primary cast a vote for a presidential nominee.

We had a Property Tax Amendment on the ballot that was very important to Homeowners.

I for one voted for this amendment but did not vote for a presidential candidate because the votes would not be counted.

An agreement that Hillary agreed to but now of course she and her campaign want to change the rules.

I am a female in my late 60's and I will not vote for Hillary if she is the nominee. She has proven to me that she is morally and ethically corrupt and I can not support her.

I for one remember ALL the Clinton years and I do not care to see Bill back in the White House again.

If Hillary is the nominee I will not stay home I will cast a vote for Ralph Nader

A woman who does not respect herself cannot be expected to respect others.

I would like to see a woman president at some time hopefully in my lifetime but not this woman.

Independent Voter, FL (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:06 PM)

They believe the American people are idiots.
They want us to believe that in the 2 states...
that their votes don't count...
they count.
Because Hillary says so.
AND they are EXCLUDING CAUSUSES????
Why doesn't Clinton just say..."Obama is not even running for President...this was all a figment of your imagination!! Vote for ME...the only democrat running for President". Hil and boys are either delusional and or the best, out of touch LIARS I have ever seen! How can a presidential candidate say...without the caususes I am winning!! If you count the votes that didn't count...I am winning! If you give me McCains votes...I'm winning! I can hear it now..."we are in a slow down...not a recession"...Ohhhh wrong LIAR....sorry!

Chuck Todd said many times, Clinton would have to win every state by 68%, including PA. Now, with a 8.6% win in PA, ( it is reported here in PA as 8.6 not rounded up to 10%) she got a BIG win.
How is it that she got the big win, when Todd, the political numbers man for MSNBC has said over and over...she has to win every remaining state by 68% to reach him? She didn't win PA by 68%.
I know "spin" is a big thing in the media...but is lying ok depending on when you do it, and about whom?
(Excluding the Clinton delusions... for including MI and FLA., and excluding all caucuses) what percentage does Clinton have to win by in every remaining primary contest, to pass Obama in popular votes? I don't care to hear the multiple daily SPIN by the Clinton campaign.
Just the NUMBERS PLEASE...CHUCK!

bitterinPA (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:06 PM)

I voted for Hillary in the Florida primary and contributed to her campaign. Will contribute again today.

Hillary is the most qualified and electable candidate for President and I will support her all the way to the White House (baggage and all).

BTW: Obama will make a great Vice-President and can run again in 2016, when he has more experience.

HILLARY, OUR NEXT PRESIDENT !!!

tsr, fl (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:08 PM)

Ok, so the Clinton campaign, that didn't want to disenfranchise (sp?) any voters, wants to INCLUDE Florida and Michigan (2 states) but EXCLUDE ALL OF THE VOTERS IN EVERY CAUCUS STATE? Does that even make sense? To anyone?

Stu, Pittsburgh, PA (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:10 PM)

So let me get this straight.

The Clinton campaign's argument is now: "Hillary has won the popular vote, if you don't count the states where she *didn't* win the popular vote?"

Pure genius! How come no one thought of this sooner?

Stanley, Cedar Rapids, Iowa (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:10 PM)

keep dreaming hillary.

hopeful, portland or (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:11 PM)

For all you hacks saying that Obama won't have a chance in this election, just turn your attention to the one fact that the media is not talking about: In the Pennsylvania primary for the republican candidates, John McCain won with 525,000 votes. All the votes combined for republicans totaled a little over 700,000. Obama had 1 million votes in Pennsylvania last nite. Even if 30% of Hillary's supporters vote for McCain, Obama will still win by a large number with the remaining Hillary voters who would vote for him. The news affilliates don't tell us this because they wouldn't be able to sensationalize the election like they're doing. You guys, this is just for ratings, the primary is over.

Obama 08

Dennis (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:12 PM)

How can they count Michigan when Obama did not have his name on the ballot??The Clinton's are as corrupt as the Soviet Politburo. I hope this ends May 6th for the sake of true Democrats.

Rick mangone Atlantic Beach N.Y. (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:13 PM)

Hillary " Alice in Wonderland" now discounts ALL cacuses and adds FL and MI. With this in mind she dominates the political landscape. I got a better idea why not count all Obama votes as only one seventh of a vote. In this way she can treat us as less than citizens. Or double the votes for her states since obviously they have added importance. I now blame the media. You allow such nonsense to be continually floated. The Clintons should have a category with "Ripley's Believe It Or Not". Biggest liars that get away with it. I guess Gerring was right the bigger the lie continually told becomes truth.

Terry, Great Plains (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:13 PM)

And if my grandmother had wheels, she'd be a bicycle.

Dema (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:13 PM)

Obama should just drop out of the race and stop being so negative. Yes, you heard me. He already has his misleading mailers out in Indiana. Does not sound like new politics to me.

Trev (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:14 PM)

SO... if you disenfranchise ALL the people in the rule-abiding caucuses, rather than the rule-violating Michigan (where Hillary was the only major candidate on the ballot) and Florida (where no one campaigned but which Hillary courted), Hillary's in the lead.

What a bunch of crap. How can anybody still support her buffoonery?

Brendan D, Niles, IL (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:14 PM)

Someone please remind her that the race is for delegates, that small states and caucus' matter, and that, according to her agreement to the rules, MI and FL do not count.

Jim, Madison NJ (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:15 PM)

Her is the first comment for the Clinton people. SPIN SPIN SPIN. If Hillary some how gets this nomination I am going to form a group of Obama backers and jump on the McCain bandwagon. How can we reward these lying Clintons. I am a white male over 55. Just when I thought the people were getting smarter it shows they can be fooled again.

Larry Los Angeles Ca. (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:17 PM)

Here’s a middle class older white woman’s spin for what it is worth. DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN? Well you better get them passports fast. We have McCain singing “Bomb Bomb Bomb Iran” to Beachboys rendition of Barbara Ann. We have Clinton saying NUKE IRAN. America is in two wars right now where the troops are spread thin and some are there for their third or fourth time. Just recently the Armed Forces is now taking felons since they can not get enough of our children, husbands and wives to sign up.

WAKE UP AMERICA – we will be in a third war – probably starting WWIII if we back these candidates. Don’t come back crying when it happens. And don’t come back crying when they re-institute the draft and take away our kids.

Obama is not perfect; he does not walk on water. However, he is the only one that seems to be interested in talking with all world leaders (leaders not terrorists).

These are American lives we are talking about – sons, daughters, husbands, wives, and friends. Give PEACE A CHANCE! Vote Obama.

Elise, San Francisco (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:17 PM)

you know the clintons have the resources and the unscrupulous associates deep inside the corrupt machine to steal the nomination, the question I have is the media going to stand by and let them do it? the press is the only defense the american citizen really has against corrupt politics, but in today’s corporate owned society one has to wonder if the press can be considered an un-biased entity, or is the u.s. the same farce as the countries often made a joke of because of governments that are an illusion?

MK,MO (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:20 PM)

That's why they call it SPIN.

Dizzy (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:20 PM)

What are the mechanics of campaign funds? Will Hillary be able to use that money right away for advertising in NC and IN or will she have to use it to offset her 10 million dollars of debt?

pay now or pay later? (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:20 PM)

Any one contributing to the Clintons are doing so against their interests. Hillary and Bill became right wing Republicans in the PA primary. Problem is in the general election they will be running agianst the REPUBLICANS. What is her strategy then. Oh by the way she lied about her YALE loans today. She quoted and interest rate not available at the time. Funny how the Newfangled Republicans( Bill and Hillary) are so like the old Republicans rich and out of touch with the working class. Regretfully, parsing over bitter, religion, guns and flag pins and other social issues is more important than a recession and a never ending war. A vote for Hillary is a vote for the Newfangled Republicans.

Terry, Great Plains (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:21 PM)

Man! these folks are creative...Soon they'll say we have the most supporters that own blue shirts, so we should be the nominee.

If she doesn't win, she can become a life coach, with her central message as "...Moving the goal post- how to create your own ever changing metric for success...". If she does do this, I will want royalties from the publishing company for the idea of course.

Greg I (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:22 PM)

This spin thing is like playing a card game with your kids who are making the rules up as they go along. Everyone agreed that MI & FL didn't count. Even the smallest kid knows that it's wrong and unfair to change the rules to suit youself.

Tamara, Corpus Christi, TX (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:22 PM)

The Clintons lie almost as much as George Bush does.

Let Freedom Ring (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:24 PM)

Tomorrow Sen Clinton is going to make a major announcement that only states that start with the letter N really count.

Dav, Houston, TX (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:55 PM)

So, how many caucus states were there? Five, seven?
States where not only delegates were chosen for Obama but Clinton also! Hello...Clinton supporters...all the hard work you did in your caucuses for her and apparently you don't count either! Nice...She'll not only throw the rule book out the window but women in caucus states get thrown under the bus in her quest for the White House. I guess even her core support of women voters isn't above becoming a casualty of her battle for the White House! So, to all those women who support her, go ahead and give money to her campaign...who knows maybe you'll be asked to get off the bus next?? WOW...no shame in her game.

Heather, WA (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:55 PM)

If this is what the Clintons will tell us about a campaign (where all the data is public and can be verified), what will they tell us about the issues? Are we "winning" in Iraq too? Are we "winning" against a recession? Are we "winning" in education?

Deb, Dallas (Sent Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:56 PM)

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