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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



12 angry men -- or 30 (plus women)?

Posted: Saturday, May 31, 2008 5:34 PM by Domenico Montanaro

From NBC's Domenico Montanaro
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Oh to be a fly on the wall inside the extended "lunch" the rules committee is taking. The scene here is full of speculation and buzz. No one seems to actually know what's going on, and there is hopeful anticipation that the committee will come back with a decision. The longer the members are out, the more possible that reality becomes. Or, the more divided they really are and the less chance something on Michigan is accomplished before late tonight, if not tomorrow or much later. The committee was due back at 4:15 pm ET.

By the way, does this remind anyone of 12 Angry Men, or rather, 30 Angry Men and Women?

Rules committee members have told First Read they'd like something close to unanimity--a 15-13 vote would not be good, one member told us. It would show yet another sign of a party divided. (15-13 because only 28 are voting members. The two co-chairs do not vote unless there is a tie. Actually, on Florida and Michigan, only 27 would vote, since committee members cannot vote on resolutions from their state.)

Inside the meeting room, onlookers -- guests, members of the media, members of the DNC -- are up chatting and speculating. They are abuzz on the floor and hanging from the balcony, leaning over the railing.

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5:46pm Saturday, May 31, 2008
Quick!  Check out this Huffington Post article.  Hillary's constructed a trap.  Dems/Obama are walking into a trap.  Basic premise is "give her an inch, she'll take a mile."  See
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/m.s.-bellows/the-trap-clintons-briarpa_b_104198.html
Get the word to the RBC before it's too late!
Good to know. Hopefully we're closer to an end.


Ryan
lesson is brevity: http://www.mofata.com
What the hells going on????
hmmmm.......maybe the big cheeses are in the Excella train's clubcar right now zooming to NYC to shmooz w/Gore?
They're cutting a backroom deal in a back room on national television. The GOP must love those optics.
This has been quite a day for Hillary. A turning point as it were.
Frustrating!!!!!!!!!  The DNC is not addressing the actual and current point.  And the point is... the data from the MI and FL contests are inconclusive!  You can not use the votes to determine "fair" seating.  People were under the assumption that their vote would not count.  Therefore, the outcomes of the primaries are not indicative of true contests!  At this point, the rules were broken (yes Hilary folks - THEY WERE BROKEN), sonsequently, data are no good - In general (speaking as a scientist), if data is no good - you either gather more data (impossible at this point) or DON'T COUNT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
As for Donna Brazille ("uncommitted" superdelegate - please, don't make me laugh0, who disingenuously told delegates that her "momma said always obey the rules", tell that to the late Rosa Parks. Truly a shameful moment in this less-than-noble saga ...
Harold, London, UK (Sent Saturday, May 31, 2008 3:22 PM)

*********************************************

Harold,

Your analogy comparing the great Rosa Park's heroism, in the face of centuries of oppresion, to Hillary's antics in defiance of reasonable, organisational  rules, is deplorably inane, and asinine.

As a Brit, and decendant of the original oppressors, of America, I say to you, back off.  Your nation's history is rife with tyranny, persecution, and shame.

India, Africa, Ireland, France, Scotland, Canada as well, know more than a little about England's greed, and conquer lust.

Mind your own doggone business.

Sheesh!
Why are Democrats always angry and always fighting?
The Clinton campaign's attempt to change the rules they agreed to makes me ashamed of my party affiliation.
Obama is taking the high road in this and the Ickes ilk are being usurpers, any other words are simply platitudes created to gloss over this fact.
Breaking News! Obama quits TUCC Church
These Clinton supporters are the same people who said that FL & MI LOST all their delegates.

Now that their candidate is losing; they claim that we should honor the voters in both of these states??? I'm sorry if I am dense here but if these supporters wanted the delegates to count in the primary shouldn't they have protested eliminating all the delegates in the first place??

Another question of integrity.........guess the Clintons haven't learned the definition of it yet
For weeks, the Clinton campaign has played the game of blaming Obama for Florida and Michigan not having delegates. Because this process is public, that game is over. If Florida and/or Michigan remain without delegates, it will be known that it is because the Clinton campaign was totally unreasonable.
Here's something for you Democrats to do in your spare time. Go up to your linen closet, take out a sheet, and slowly rip it in half. That's the same sound everyone hears as your party is spliting in two.
This whole situation really makes me sick.  The RBC should never have punished the two states as harshly as they did in the first place even though some punishment was necessary under the circumstances.  Now some of the RBC members want to act like they never made the decisions they made??  They couldn't anticipate voter interest?? Why? Cause only Iowa and New Hampshire get to decide the flow of an election?  People need to live by the decisions they make and not change the rules just to suit oneself.  The RBC made their decision and shouldn't act like they never did, and the state legislators of Florida did what they had to do, but they have to live partially with the decision they made as well.  People have to do the right thing even when it hurts, unless people do not believe in the right thing anymore.
Seems like Hillary has the advantage... we can't afford to upset Florida (Michigan will vote for the Democratic nominee in Nov b/c of the devastated economy there)....

we should be kissing Florida's bum at all costs
Hey just an FYI for first read, another news network is reporting that Barack Obama removed his church membership from Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago.  
Sheesh! They're finally coming back from their break.  This ought to be good!

 A CONCESSION isn't a WIN. She'll spin it that way, but...
  All they are doing is giving the people of FL and MI their voice. NO ONE WON anything. These two are
 separate. Straw votes.
Delegates.
Bonior, Bonior, Bonior, I've heard that name before. Oh, yes! He was Husseins (Saddam's , not Barack's) guest before the war started. Bonior was used by Hussein (Saddam, not Barack) as a propaganda tool against the US. I guess now he's being used by Hussein (Barack, not Saddam) for the same purpose.

What goes around comes around I guess.

Okay Chuck, Show Time!

  GET READY TO TRANSLATE and TABULATE for the rest of us!
It doesn't surprise me at all that the Democrats have screwed up their Primary procedures. What surprises me is that they haven't figured out a way to blame it on President Bush.
This whole thing is based on nothing more than political show.  Hillary is vying for the VP slot.  She is trying to blackmail Obama with the threat of  a party fracus, if she were not to be asked to be his running mate.  

Truth be told, I think that it's a bluff.  If she were to try to carry this dispute to the convention, as a floor fight, not only would she not get the VP position, but she would end any future role that she otherwise might have in the party leadership.  In addition, the Bill Clinton legacy (what is left of it) would be destroyed along with her scorched earth policy.

No, Barack, stand firm.  Call her out.  You need to pick the VP that will best serve your administration and not allow yourself to be sublimated by the whims of the Clintons.  Hillary will drive away more votes than she can deliver and her alleged expertise is a lot of hot air.  Certainly her lack of integrity will taint your message for change.  Victory is yours Obama; be gentle but firm and make no concessions.  Giving into Hillary would be true appeasement.
Obama '08
First Read ---> Inside the meeting room, onlookers -- guests, members of the media, members of the DNC -- are up chatting and speculating. They are abuzz on the floor and hanging from the balcony, leaning over the railing. <---

It is fun to watch idiots at work. You never know what they'll come up with next.
This has not been a good afternoon for the Dems. There's been little evidence of any "Solomonic" leadership. Posturing has been the hallmark of both sides, and frankly, some of the "super-delegates" are anything but super. Maybe they'll do better after "lunch".
Chris, It's so frustrating to listen to you talk about how close the race is, it's about even? That's just the kind of talk the Clintonites claim as a reason their candidate has had the election stolen from her. How many caucus states get their votes ignored if we change the rules to use the popular vote? Chris, tell us how many states and territories Obama won. Then count Hillary's! Tell me how she can claim a popular vote victory when in 2007 she kept claiming winning relied on total delegates, pledged and super. Remember how many times she has said even pledged delegates can change their pledge? That was after she lost 13 in a row. Remember red states didn't count as wins for Obama because they wouldn't vote democratic in November. I wish some media person would remind her of that when Puerto Rico votes! As she keeps losing, she keeps trying to change the goal posts and I think it's so unfair to her supporters, to make them feel cheated, to make them feel media bias took it away from them. Chris Matthews, you buy right into the Clinton talking points and are helping her divide the party.
It is important to get a man from Vermont and another from North Carolina, one candidate from New York, the other from Illinois, to tell the people in Michigan and Florida that their votes don't count. To Democrats, that's called unity and diversity.

 ONLY the CLINTONS could cause this kind
of divisive drama (albeit wonderful for MSNBC, et al.
 and us, the peanut gallery).

They are like that
 PEANUTS character that has this cloud of dirt
around him everywhere he goes...
 If Sen. Obama doesn't get as far away from them as
he can and still not be obvious or mean, he needs to
release his PSYCHIATRIC report!
barack just resigned from his church. someone please confirm this.
If the rules committee punts, this can only be described as a great day for Operation Chaos.
The Democrats will have a new theme song for the presidential campgaign.  Charlie Rich's "Behind Closed Doors".
Breaking news CNN Roland Martin Obama resigned membership from church ???
Hillary's volunteers I mean supporters are ready to storm the committee room to insure that Hillary is guranteed a victory regardless of the non significant caucus states and primaries that Obama won.  Hillary and Bill have caused a better than average chance to win in November to become a toss up at best for the Democrats.  I doubt she will ever win back the African American ,independent and young voters. But then again an entitled millionare( built on public service) like Hillary has better things to do than be concerned about the little people.( unless they can contribute to her campiagn debt)  
Next dumb question for Chuck:

Can the FL and MI state parties keep 'adding on' and get back up to 100%? They'd have to be assigned, I guess. Or have I been watching this too long?
Next dumb question for Chuck:

Can the FL and MI state parties keep 'adding on' and get back up to 100%? They'd have to be assigned, I guess. Or have I been watching this too long?
So, what's confusing is that Dean and the Democrats said that Florida and Michigan votes don't count, but now that it's close, they do count, but not as much, but some votes count more then other votes because someone on one of the candidates side has more people on the committee, and it's getting late, and some of them have a plane to catch. Does that sum it up?
ROLAND MARTIN SAYS,
BARACK AND MICHELLE OBAMA HAVE RESIGNED FROM TRINITY CHURCH.
Roland verified it with church people

Go Obama '08
Wow.  Just saw Chuck Todd's 10 second crash course in constitutional law.  Topic:  standing.  Chuck, please do us all a favor and stick to the numbers, please.
Why they Democrats allowed this to be televised is beyond understanding. They're going to have to steal the tapes and bury them less this news get out. Their behavior makes Father Pfleger's behavior look like Mr. Rogers.
Nora O'Donnell just reported that Barack Obama has  given up his membership in Trinity UCC in Chicago.  It was probably inevitable - he had to take this issue completely off the table.

Sad, nonetheless, to feel compelled to leave behind a place that has meant so much to him and his family.

As St. Paul wrote, "Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize..."
To avoid the whole "deal made in a backroom" stigma, I wish they were hashing this out in front of the cameras. (I thought that's what they were doing, anyway.) Of course, a storm is blowing through here and I just lost my satellite reception anyway.

I don't know how they're going to resolve MI as there seems to be disagreement as to whether even acknowledge it as a valid primary.

I really like Alice Germond. She seems to really be impartial and is trying to take everything into consideration.

I admit I'm biased, but my gosh Ickes is an obnxious ass! I thought Wexler did a great job both in presenting Obama's arguments and in defending himself against Ickes and the woman (Huffman?) who questioned his support of voters' rights. (She picked the wrong guy to mess with!)

Although I don't agree with what MI did, after hearing Levin speak, I understand their motivation. I think we should just have ONE primary day across the country, just as we have one election day. That way no one is first, no one "counts more", etc. And we'd avoid another headache like this one!
The DRC Meeting, which should have had a goal of making sure Florida and Michigan voters were fairly represented in choosing the nominee, turned out to be “simply Politics as usual. It was apparent that the agenda was concerned with which candidates could get the most delegates.

I expected better, but the members of the DRC quickly proved that their views were determined by the needs of the Candidates they endorsed or worked for. The DNC had an opportunity to show the American Voters that they could come up with a fair solution that would please the voters in Florida and Michigan, but that didn’t happen. I don’t think we needed a Solomon and a Sword.    

It shouldn’t have been about 50% or 100% of delegates or half vote or full vote.. The key was to determine how the voters of Florida and Michigan might have voted in “real” Primaries where they knew their vote would count. The DNC could have taken a secret poll of the voters in June, but that would have been too easy.

The latest June State General Election polls showed that Hillary and Obama were tied at 44% against McCain. So the Michigan delegates should have been split 50-50. In Florida, Hillary had 48% and Obama 41%. Based on 100%, Hillary gets 54% and Obama 46%. Not that it matters but the popular vote could have been split that way as well.    

The Florid and Michigan Voters would view it as fair since it was based on polls not flawed Primaries and the DRC and DNC would have proven they could rise above the back room political bickering we are all tired of,. shame on them, shame on us..
Michigan was not an election in anything other than Soviet style...Da v. nyet.  This is not how we vote in America...sorry Michigan (although it was not entirely your fault).  The vote doesn't count and the delegates should be allotted 50/50.  Hillary and Ickes agreed a pri ori to this concept and don't have the right to change their minds so as to benefit their circumstance.  Let's get this over with.  Actually, S.D.'s the future of America is in your hands...don't fail us.
Obama '08
Michigan was not an election in anything other than Soviet style...Da v. nyet.  This is not how we vote in America...sorry Michigan (although it was not entirely your fault).  The vote doesn't count and the delegates should be allotted 50/50.  Hillary and Ickes agreed a pri ori to this concept and don't have the right to change their minds so as to benefit their circumstance.  Let's get this over with.  Actually, S.D.'s the future of America is in your hands...don't fail us.
Obama '08
This whole situation really makes me sick.  The RBC should never have punished the two states as harshly as they did in the first place even though some punishment was necessary under the circumstances.  Now some of the RBC members want to act like they never made the decisions they made??  They couldn't anticipate voter interest?? Why? Cause only Iowa and New Hampshire get to decide the flow of an election?  People need to live by the decisions they make and not change the rules just to suit oneself.  The RBC made their decision and shouldn't act like they never did, and the state legislators of Florida did what they had to do, but they have to live partially with the decision they made as well.  People have to do the right thing even when it hurts, unless people do not believe in the right thing anymore.

How about 48 + angry states and territories?

 I'm thinking there are 48 other states and a few
territories, that followed the rules, stayed in line
and probably couldn't care less about arrogant FL and MI right now. Doesn't the DNC have to consider the rest of their states and their delegates, etc.?
Heck, I'm from NY. Be glad to team up with CA and
jump the line and screw all of you.
This WHOLE thing has got to be totally re-worked.
This whole situation really makes me sick.  The RBC should never have punished the two states as harshly as they did in the first place even though some punishment was necessary under the circumstances.  Now some of the RBC members want to act like they never made the decisions they made??  They couldn't anticipate voter interest?? Why? Cause only Iowa and New Hampshire get to decide the flow of an election?  People need to live by the decisions they make and not change the rules just to suit oneself.  The RBC made their decision and shouldn't act like they never did, and the state legislators of Florida did what they had to do, but they have to live partially with the decision they made as well.  People have to do the right thing even when it hurts, unless people do not believe in the right thing anymore.
Alexis Herman is one classy woman. I think the Rules committee is lucky to have her.

And kudos to Alice Huffman for her call for unity (and for putting the dissenters in the audience in their place). Shame on those who didn't join the standing ovation during her call for unity. You just don't get it. This isn't about you, or your state, or your candidate. It's about OUR country and the need to keep the Republicans out of OUR White House.
Let's just unite this party. Obama beat Clinton with smarter politics. Plain and simple. Time to move on. Unite the party to beat McCain/Bush.
The Democrats are acting like Itchy and Scratchy.....fight...fight ...fight...I'M tire of it and will never vote for Hellary if she was the only one in the race now.


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