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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



McCain touts new auto tech

Posted: Friday, June 27, 2008 2:28 PM by Domenico Montanaro

From NBC/NJ’s Matthew E. Berger

WARREN, Ohio -- McCain brought his energy message to a General Motors plant Friday, touting green technology and new energy sources while rejecting changes to free trade agreements or a bailout for the auto industry.
 
McCain toured GM’s Lordstown Complex and learned how new models are getting more gas mileage than previous versions, and learned about a new Chevy Volt that will run predominantly on electricity, planned for 2010.
 
At a town hall meeting after the tour, McCain said the country needed to be more active in finding alternatives to gas-based vehicles, like hybrids and electric cars.
 
“We can lead again in the automotive industry and that can provide thousands of jobs,” McCain said.
 
McCain said he was opposed to limitations on free trade agreements, but said enforcement of violations could increase.
 
“I don’t believe that every trade agreement is totally fair, and we do have mechanisms in these agreements where you can bring suit where unfair practices exist,” he said. But, he added that trade restrictions would have a ripple effect.
 
“When we practice protectionism and we erect barriers to the products from other countries, they do the same to us and then it leads to economic consequences,” he said. “I think that was the case in the 1930s. I think that our protectionism and isolationism led from a recession to a deep depression.”
 
Speaking to reporters, he also rejected calls for a bailout of the automotive industry, saying he preferred tax credits for research and development.
 
“I would assist in every way,” he said. “Bailouts I don’t think works.”
 
McCain also said he believed the 45 day period would be sufficient to determine whether North Korea had done enough to warrant removal from the state sponsors of terrorism list.
 
“I’m not sure,” he said. “I’ve been skeptical, obviously, about the North Koreans, because of past misbehavior and misleading in the six party talks.”
 
McCain laughed when one reporter asked him whether he had a cold. He said he had the sniffles from traveling, but seemed agitated by the question. "You can't make it up," he said.

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Comments

No need to worry about his cold ... McCain can take the weekend off (again) to recuperate.
I understand the need to be on the ground and bringing your message to the people.  That part of campaigning makes sense; but it just seems so 'old school' to "...learn about how new models are getting better gas mileage..." it seems quaint.

The summits that Obama held this week just seem much more presidential.  He had bipartisan representation from educators and corporations.  It just seemed much more forward thinking.

I know I am biased; but does anyone else pick up on these nuances?
McCain who? I'm just getting back from Unity.

Is he the guy with the $300 million dollar game show?

Obama is pledging $150 Billion/year for 10 years to do the same thing.

I wonder who will actually get it done?
I think Bobbi Eau Claire WI is actually Andrea Mitchell doing some ghost writing.

Will this hurt him....? Could this be a problem...? I wish she could begin one sentence without a thinly vailed question aimed to tear down.


Obama 08
John McCain has no new ideas for the future. He basically says over and over that he really wouldn't do anything differently than how things are done currently. He seems totally out of touch with everything. He is only interested in wars and keeping them going. If you want future of many wars then John McCain is your man. I want something much better than that - I want peace and prosperity for all so I am going to vote for Obama in November!

Great Obama Stuff!
http://www.artwearactivist.com
What does he mean, "When we practice protectionism and we erect barriers to the products from other countries they do the same to us?"

Last time I checked they are already doing it to us.  We have those famous lapel pins and every other thing in America, made in China for example.  

Oh yeah, we have poisoned toys for our children to play with, what is he talking about?  We need accountability and we need to enforce trade restrictions.  We are always worried abut how others feel when we the American people bare the burdens.  

We have more of their items and they have less of ours.  Someone needs to address this, this is nonsense.  Soon our money will have on it, "In China We Trust".    
I find it stupefying how Mr Montenauro can listen to two very similar speeches by two different candidates and end up continuously slamming one and saying nary a bad word about the other. What McCain is saying about the US auto industry here - increasing gas mileage, alternate fuels, hybrids etc. is exactly what Mr Obama said in Detroit to the auto industry previously; yet to Mr Montenauro Obama's speech portends problems in Michigan, while I read nothing similar at all about Mr Montenauro's views on Mr McCain !! If you want to be a journalist, you gotta be even handed !!
And we'll live happily ever after...we bomb Iran


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH....
Liberals like Obama say "We can't drill are our way out of the fuel problems". Well here's some news for the Liberals, we can't conserve our way out the problem either. The need for oil is only going to increase in the coming years. For every barrel of oil saved, there will be 10 barrels more that will be needed. Conservation is a part, but only a small part, of the equation.
I was against the original bailout, so I guess it's ok for Mccain to be opposed to another bailout. He can preach green cars til he keels over, but if he's also talking about keeping the oil flowing, the car companies will never really get serious about making cars that are greener, not if they know we'll be mining the California coast and the Alaskan wilderness, the north pole and uncle Joe's oily hair.
At a town hall meeting after the tour, McCain said the country needed to be more active in finding alternatives to gas-based vehicles, like hybrids and electric cars.
------------------------------------------------------
He's been sitting on his a** in the Senate for the last 20 years, so he picks THIS year for this to be an idea??????? Give me a break. He's helped BLOCK our dependence on oil over and over again to appease the big oil companies......NOW he wants us to think he's for a change? Give us a break, John and go take another nap. Oh yeah, and about your gas tax holiday for releif over the summer.......you DO realize you woouldn't be elected as President until the FALL, don't you? So your "gimmick" gas tax break doesn't affect ANYONE and is therefore, a gimmick afterall.
Clara KC MO - I know I am biased; but does anyone else pick up on these nuances?



Those summits/photo-ops of Obama - what did they accomplish? Obama really doesn't have an plans, and it showed, especailly at the so-called energy summit/photo-op. So, what is his plan for energy? He hasn't presented one that makes any sense yet. He won't drill, he won't mine, he won't refine, he won't build nukes. So, what's the plan? He did say something about reducing or relience on foreign oil by 2030. Replace it with what? Fairy dust? And that's two decades away! That's not a plan, it's a proclamation.

Obama is a lot of things, but one of the things he is not is presidential.
It makes sense. This direction allows innovation to be initiated by the manufacturer rather than depending to the government all they time if they are in troubled waters...STRIIIIKE 1! Another kick in gonads for the Obamites when a sound idea is in place. As usual, the revert back to denial of reality.
Sorry, but I have a hard time believing Detroit is going to leap ahead of Japan in hybrid technology, unless we beat them to the hydrogen punch.

Take off your political hat and put on your car buying hat for a second. Its 2010 and you need a car. Are you more likely to buy a Chevy Volt or a Honda Hybrid Civic?

Maybe Chevy will prove me wrong, and I hope they do, but after decades of building inferior internal combustion stuff, I'll have to see it to believe it.

Now, whoever figures out how to offer affordable hydrogen fuel cells will be the next Bill Gates. And that's where the x-prize model ought to be employed.

We're spending $12 billion a month in Iraq promoting regional stability. Why? Why not in any of the other unstable regions of the world? Simply put, because of strategic resources. Considering that, what national value would you place on a technological breakthrough that makes internal combustion obsolete?

Maybe the Volt is a step in that direction - maybe it is hydrogen, I don't know. But given the Chevy label, I doubt it.
.....and by the way how are we going "to lead again in the automotive industry" when the largest US automaker, GM, keeps cutting production because it can't sell cars due to the price of gas, can't raise capital due to poor sales and is on the verge of going out of business due to these factors.  No bailout for GM according to McCain....just let GM die a slow death and put thousands of American workers on the unemployment line.
I have noticed that his "straight-talk express" is A) inconsistent or B) something people do not want to hear. Pro NAFTA comments does not earn points in Michigan/Ohoi/Indiana. Pro off-shore drilling does not earn him points in states with an ocean as a border. Telling Michigan unemployed their job won't return may be true, but offers no hope.  What hurts him the most is that he has no vision.  You know, Bush 41 called it that "vision thing". Leadership is about vision. Giving direction to the country that has been stalled for 8 years.  
The stress of he campaign will take it's toll on John, allergies now, a cold later. Hopefully nothing worse than a cold.  We will see what happens.  
I understand the need to be on the ground and bringing your message to the people.  That part of campaigning makes sense; but it just seems so 'old school' to "...learn about how new models are getting better gas mileage..." it seems quaint.

The summits that Obama held this week just seem much more presidential.  He had bipartisan representation from educators and corporations.  It just seemed much more forward thinking.

I know I am biased; but does anyone else pick up on these nuances?
Clara Kansas City, MO (Sent Friday, June 27, 2008 2:37 PM)

***********************

Absolutely Clara!

As I read this article, I thought, 'are the repubs kidding with this charade'?

McCain is an uninformed, behind the times, wannabe intelligentsia. He is'nt fooling anybody.

The 300 Billion dollar bailout.

We continue to ignore the Dodd Shelby bill FHA Housing Stabilization and Homeownership Retention Act of 2008 which was written word for word by Bank of America.

Coutrywide shareholders have approved the buyout and Bank of America plans to cut 7,500 jobs.

The Senate ethic commitee wants to have more mortgage disclosure for members of Congress. Note: mortgages are a matter of public record. Not that a reporter would be able to find it.

Mr. Dodd has in the past rewritten accounting rules which allowed Arthur Andersen to cover up for Enron.

4 years from now the democrats will blame the republicans and the republicans will blame the democrats.
So called 'free trade' has destroyed jobs and manufacturing in America
Why manufacture in America when environmental standards are lower elsewhere ?
Why manufacture in America when you can pay starvation wasges to workers in dangerous plants ?

The only interest with input into NAFTA were corporation, banks and inverstors

Labor, consumers and environmentalists had no input into NAFTA

'Free trade' is a scam, benefitting only the wealthy and corporations

Hopefully, Obama will address this as President

PS:

Ralph Nader and Ross Perot were RIGHJT about NAFTA
Bill Clinton and Al Gore were WRONG !!

Obama/Edwards '08
CW DC "but if he's also talking about keeping the oil flowing, the car companies will never really get serious about making cars that are greener"

Well, then there won't be anymore car companies.

Liberals get so confused about how capitalism works. For some reason they think they need the idiots in the governemnt to tell them and the car makers what to do. The car makers know what to do - having some knuckle-headed government dweeb that doesn't know the hood from the trunk telling them what to do isn't helpful to anyone.
I'll believe in BO's renewable energy when Ted Kennedy drops his objection to the proposed wind farm off of Cape Cod.  Until then the future is nuclear.  (...and it's definitely not corn based ethanol).

PS  What about your FISA flip-flop Barack?  It's becoming a habit lately.
So what happens now?
Conservation will work.
I know this sounds ridculous, but, if we could reduce electricity usage by 75% (yes that is alot) we could actually move to completely renewable sources. Never forget about the massive amount of energy coming out of the TVA and other projects paid for by taxpayers.
I understand the need to be on the ground and bringing your message to the people.  That part of campaigning makes sense; but it just seems so 'old school' to "...learn about how new models are getting better gas mileage..." it seems quaint.

The summits that Obama held this week just seem much more presidential.  He had bipartisan representation from educators and corporations.  It just seemed much more forward thinking.

I know I am biased; but does anyone else pick up on these nuances?
Clara Kansas City, MO (Sent Friday, June 27, 2008 2:37 PM)

----------------------------------
yes. it does seem 'quaint'. if he really wanted to know what went into making a higher efficiency car, he could have googled it- or, better off, tour a honda plant.
'Pro NAFTA comments does not earn points in Michigan/Ohoi/Indiana. Pro off-shore drilling does not earn him points in states with an ocean as a border. Telling Michigan unemployed their job won't return may be true, but offers no hope'  Ron, Indiana
---------------------------------------------------
Isn't it refreshing to have a candidate tell someone the truth, even if it may cost him political points!
McCain doesn't use the English language very well.  He hurts my ears and reading it is even worse.
"Bailouts I don't think works"  Something is wrong here I think.  And more than just English syntax.
McCain doesn't use the English language very well.  He hurts my ears and reading it is even worse.
"Bailouts I don't think works"  Something is wrong here I think.  And more than just English syntax.
I don't understand his thinking. He says America is addicted to oil and we need to look for alternative energy. The next day he talks about the need to drill for more oil in America. Then the next day he tells the automakers they need to focus on hybrid technolgy. So let me see if I got this right. We're addicted to oil so we need to keep feeding our habbit while we make cars that don't need the extra oil we drilled for.

Also, why did he support a bailout for sub prime lenders, but say one isn't needed for the auto industry. Oh nevermind, I almost fogot Lindsey Grahm is his top economic supervisor. That's the man that lobbied for deregulation of lending practices. Make perfect sense now.
There he goes again. In the primary McCain was the one telling voters that the automotive industry jobs weren't coming back. Now he says his policies will create millions of jobs.

Didn't anyone send him the memo that the trouble with Nafta and other trade agreements is that these countries already restrict our products from coming into their nations.

The real question I want him to answer is why he and others kept rejecting pleas for levee repair and constrution. Why has he said nothing of repairing and rebuilding bridges and roads. Even now, with all the loss of life and homes, he won't explain why he wants tax cuts for the wealthiest and money for lobbyists and Iraq instead of taking care of home.  
Jackd2001-the only way to reduce electricity usage by 75% is to close the factories, and move into caves.  I suppose you'll do your part by shutting off your stereo, hdtv, and computer.
McCain is mentally bankrupt when it comes to economics. He cannot comprehend that all the free trade agreements is the cause for the deep recession we are in, and it is goingin to get worse. Like many conservatives McCain has not figured out "trickle down economics does not work when it does not trickle down. An economy is prosperous when consumers have expendable cash on hand not when corporate bank accounts are buldging. And it does not help the economy when corporate America closes American factories and outsources jobs to near slave labor countries. Leading consevatives are so in the pocket of corporate America that they just do not get it.
mccain opposes bailout of car co. but subsidises $17 billion for oil co. profiteering already!!! bailout vrs subsidies, its just symantics folks. the difference is make detroit competetive in hybreds or feed big oil cash over their record profits!instead of closing us factories retool for hybreds and start producing quality energy efficient vehicles generating jobs, income, and taxpaying employment.
I beleive it was GM that had an electric car in production in the 90s, yet their "partner", Big Oil, had them recall the vehicles for the junkyard.  McCain, with his well touted many years in Congress, knows this, but is simply playing lip service for poll ratings.  Just more of the McSame
"Obama is pledging $150 Billion/year for 10 years to do the same thing." - Obama is pledging nothing. He will tax companies/people to get this money. This is not pledging but wealth redistribtion.

"McCain said the country needed to be more active in finding alternatives to gas-based vehicles, like hybrids and electric cars. He's been sitting on his a** in the Senate for the last 20 years, so he picks THIS year for this to be an idea??????? Give me a break."

Actually although I disagree with McCain on this he has sponsered climate change legislation much earlier than this year which promoted all of the above.

"Also, why did he support a bailout for sub prime lenders, but say one isn't needed for the auto industry. "

Any politician up for re-election would be crucified if they opposed this legislation since it has been framed as a bailout for homeowners.

"mccain opposes bailout of car co. but subsidises $17 billion for oil co. profiteering already"

The 17 billion is over 10 years and it applies to ALL MANUFACTURERS. Oil companies are bundled in with everyone else so to not include them would be applying politically motivated selective taxation.
Honda is already selling a hydrogen powered fuel cell vehicle in California. It isn't coming out years from now, it is here right now. They built a solar powered refueling station, which is why sales are limited to the area where refueling is available. Instead of giving 6.5 Billion in aid to the top 5 oil companies, why can't we simply give 6.5 billion as flexible loans to entrepreneurs to build "green stations" across the country. The problem with all these vehicles is you have nowhere to refuel them. Even now, in Charlotte where I live, there are only 3 stations that carry ethanol, and the  price is 6% less than gas, but delivers 33% worse gas mileage.

McCain keeps talking like this is Buck Rogers stuff. The vehicles are here now. All we need to do is supply the impetus for refueling that cuts oil companies out of the loop altogether, and we can drive fossil fuel dependence down rapidly.
"And it does not help the economy when corporate America closes American factories and outsources jobs to near slave labor countries."

Globalism has changed the issue of corporations vs the people. It is not corporations vs the people it is American corporation versus foreign competitors.

I would assert that a lot of the blame can be put at the feet of consumers. When consumers go to the store what is their priority? If the priority is the lowest price and your morals of slave labor, environmental standards, not made in the US, etc go out the window you are a contributor to the problem. I know this places personal responsibility so probably won't be received well.

When consumers look at things other than the bottom line corporations can stay in America with the higher wages forced by unions and the increased production costs forced by environmental and other standards. To stay in business corporations have to make money.
Glad to see he read "The Audacity of Hope."
The ALARMING increase in the price of imported oil & refined gasoline will drive our economy into a depression --- unless it is fixed  and soon..  

People on fixed incomes, and the working-poor and the middle-class will suffer the most..   It is a crime that our political leaders, both Republicans and Democrats, have allowed us to be put into this crisis..  While the gridlock and petty bickering was going on in D.C., our government could not foresee this crisis or prepare for our energy needs..  

The 'tree huggers' and 'greed merchants' have controlled our country's energy supply for too long..  We need to take steps immediately to provide cost relief, we cannot wait 10 or 20 years..  Importantly we cannot expect that people on fixed incomes and the working-poor will be able to purchase new energy-efficient automobiles fastest enough to make a significant impact on our energy needs..   A long-term energy plan must be developed ---- but we cannot fool ourselves into thinking that our economy and way of life can suffer the current
outrageous energy costs, for long, without irreparable harm..

WE NEED A PRESIDENT WHO WILL BOLDY & AGGRESSIVELY DEAL WITH THIS CRSIS:

1.)  DRILL for oil everywhere it is available on USA lands and waters, on a expedited basis;

2.)  Provide FINANCIAL REWARDS for the development and implementation of cost-effective and/or renewable energy sources;

3.)  BUILD nuclear power plants, on an expedited basis, to provide for at least 80% of our electric power needs.

WE NEED A PRESIDENT WHO WILL USE THE 'BULLY PULPIT' AND PRESIDENTIAL EXECUTIVE POWERS TO ATTACK THIS ENERGY CRISIS.
Alright, all you lets drill know folks. The botom line is next to placing a cap on the oil industry like in the 70's. There is only one thing that can be done right now to save money on gas, don't use so much. You need to slow down, car pool, try and find a job closer to home if you can. As far as the technology for driving I have never been a big GM fan, but my pennies are being saved right now to buy one of those Volts in 09-10. It is going to put a dent in my budget for a while, but thats why I am saving now.
In other words get your heads out of your butts and do the research on all of McLame's ideas. They don't make practical sense.
its funny how much stuff mccain is stealing from obama


obama criticizes mccains battery idea because he didnt call on Americans to make the technology and likened it to kennedy and his call for the space project, and mccain then comes out and says his car battery idea is like kennedys space exploration call

and now hes saying we can lead in the auto industry in green techonology, something obama has been touting for some time now, and saying he can create thousand of jobs with this

and here comes mccain

HEY I KNOW

ill call for drilling, and ill call for clsoing our boarders, and then in private ill change my whole story adopt obamas ideas and then call him a stealer when he brings it up

mclame
So if Obama is of superior intelligence and wit over McCain please explain the following scenario.

In page 101 of "The Audacity of Hope," Obama writes that "one of my favorite tasks of being a senator is hosting town hall meetings. I held 39 of them my first year in the Senate."

Obama says in page 102 they are like "a dip in a cool stream. I feel cleansed afterward, glad for the work I have chosen."

So if town hall meetings make him feel cleansed why is it he is afraid to debate with McCain with impartial moderators and spontaneous questions?
"Liberals get so confused about how capitalism works?"                                                                                                       Well Mr.Harold Ford from Detroit, while you may know how capitalism works you are naive about what it takes for a country to be economically successful. Capitalism is based on getting a positive return on an investment and in turn the cost and price of an item constantly goes up. This would be fine if all Americas trading partners played by the same rules, but they do not. Countries like communist China and Mexico compete with America by having laxed environmental and workers rights laws to maximize on profit. By limiting the the down side cost of their investment they render American workers non-competitive and damage Americas overall economy. We are witnessing the effects of the so-called free trade agreements with these countries now. GET IT?
MSoundbite-ierra says:

Why manufacture in America when environmental standards are lower elsewhere?

Why manufacture in America when you can pay starvation wasges to workers in dangerous plants ?

I don't know, MS, why don't you ask Honda, Toyota and Hyundai?  They manufacture here.

I don't know about you, but I've supported U.S. Manufacturers with my last three cars.  They have all been good cars. It seems to me a lot of people in this country don't care enough about American workers to buy the cars they make.

My parents have a 1992 Buick Park Avenue that gets 33 on the highway, my in-laws have a Buick Century that gets 35.  Each car will seat six people if necessary.  I have good friends that buy nothing but Fords and are always happy.

I think marketing has duped most of the country into screwing over our own people.  On top of that, we're all too cheap to really support domestic manufacturing and do it the way you say we're supposed to.

And I hate to tell you, but Mom and Pop shops are never going to build automobiles or produce energy on a mass scale.  You need wealth and corporations for that.  I benefit daily from a lot of pretty good wealthy corporations as well as the modestly wealthy one I work for.

I'm sorry.

My guess is that you do too.

Keep shouting though, I'm sure you're getting through to someone somewhere.


I'VE NOTICED ON ALL THESE BLOGS THAT EVERYBODY WHO'S FOR DRILLING IN THE U.S. I GUNG-HO FOR IT; BUT, THEY'RE TOO COWARDLY TO LET US (AND THE OIL COMPANIES) KNOW WHERE THEY LIVE SO WE CAN START DRILLING IN TIME FOR THEM TO SAVE A NICKEL @ THE GAS PUMP, IN 20 YEARS. NOT IN MY HOUSE RIGHT?!
Hydrogen is not the answer.  There is no infrastructure in place to distribute it.  Currently hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are extremely expensive.  Please read up on the Chevy Volt.  It is not like a Prius.  It is strictly electric drive with an onboard generator that would only be needed after 40 miles to recharge the battery.  If you drive less than 40 miles a day you can then plug in at night when electricity usage is low and never burn a drop of gas.  The infrastructure is in place for anyone with an electrical outlet.  Or, go with some solar panels at home and charge off the grid.  GM is really trying to do the right thing on this.  Hopefully our politicians and the public will realize it too.
I keep reading about how politicians are always against Detroit "bailouts" even though NO DETROIT EXECUTIVE has brought this issue up.  It's only brought up by the press, as far as I can tell.  

Advice to press:  report the news, please, don't try to manufacture it.  You need to go back to Journalism 101 and learn some ethics.

It's amazing how uninformed politicians (and the press and the public) are about the auto industry regarding fuel-economy and quality.  Our Japanese competitors are well aware that Detroit is every bit as competitive as they are, and even say so in public.  Toyota recently admitted there is no statistical difference in quality.  

Maybe that's why Detroit keeps beating Japan, Inc. for auto awards the past few years.  I wish the public would pay attention to this type of thing.

How many 'Mericans are aware that Buick is tied with Lexus for best long-term quality?  Or that the Chevy Malibu is higher quality than any other midsize car (and only ranks behind 3 cars in any class, and all 3 of those are luxury makes)?

The list goes on and on.

Who is the genius that advises McCain on his economic policy? His buddy Phil Gramm? I'm getting dizzy just listening to him talking out of both sides of his mouth.  He is for alternative sources of energy and breaking Americans from our addiction to oil. No, he wants to drill more oil offshore and more nuclear power plants.  No, wait, he touts green auto technology and new energy sources.  He's against bailing out the auto companies but he is for bailing out investment companies and giving tax credits to the oil industry, and still promises million of new jobs in the auto industry.  No, he really really feels our pain, really, never mind.
I came to the conclusion that Mr. McCain got some serious memory lapses that are getting worse by the days.
The only "energy plan" Obama has is figuering out how much energy it will take to say what sounds good.

No nukes, no coal, no drilling........perfect solution
ya' think?
I do like McCain's idea of an X-Prize type award for a "Super Battery" for vehicles.  Unfortunately that's about the only thing.  He wants to stay in Iraq.  Why?  Must be the oil.  He doesn't want to help Auto companies but will give breaks to Big Oil companies.  If we could get going with electric vehicles we could cut our oil consumption immensely.  It may take a very long time to be completly energy independent.  Right now we're sending a tanker full of money for oil to some countries that want to kill us.  Then we use our food supply to make more oil and food prices rise.  For me this is biggest issue we as a nation face.  We must break free of our addiction to oil.  
India has an electric car called the Reva,  which sells for $2500...compared to GM/Chevy's Volt for $30,000.  Hmmm, let me guess which I can afford.  Remember GM killed the electric car - so why should we care about them - they never cared about us.


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