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First Read is an analysis of the day's political news, from the NBC News political unit. First Read is updated throughout the day, so check back often.

Chuck Todd, NBC Political Director

Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC Political Researcher



Senate tick-tock on the FISA bill

Posted: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:17 AM by Mark Murray
Filed Under:

From NBC's Ken Strickland
The Senate is finally expected to wrap up the bill updating the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act today, which includes the controversial provision of retroactive immunity for telecom companies facing lawsuit. While the bill splits Democrats, it's expected to pass with united Republican support. 

Obama will be back for today's vote and has said he'll support final passage.

Before final passage, there will be three efforts to either eliminate or weaken the immunity section of the bill. Those efforts will take the form of three amendments offered by Sens. Dodd/Feingold, Specter, and Bingaman. The key amendment is Dodd/Feingold, which simply removes immunity from the bill and would let the lawsuits proceed. Dodd/Feingold requires a simple majority for passage. Specter and Bingaman require 60 votes. All should fail.

Following the three amendment votes, there will be on procedural vote and then final passage. If, as expected, all the amendments fail and the underlying bill passes, it goes directly to the White House for the President's signature.

The voting starts approximately 11:15 am ET, and everything on FISA should be wrapped up by 12:30 pm ET or so.

*** UPDATE *** Strickland also notes Obama's seeming reversal on FISA: In December of last year, Obama's office said in a written statement, "Senator Obama unequivocally opposes giving retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies... granting such immunity undermines the constitutional protections Americans trust the Congress to protect. Senator Obama supports a filibuster [blocking] of this bill, and strongly urges others to do the same."

But last month when Democratic leaders cut a deal with the Bush Administration on wiretapping -- a deal that places tighter restrictions on terrorist surveillance but still granted telecoms immunity -- Obama dropped his defiant stance. While still acknowledging the Bush Administration, "has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution," he said he'd support the bill.

In a written statement shortly after the House passed the compromise, Obama said of the bill, "while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's." The statement went on to detail a various improvements in the bill, but ended with a reluctant acknowledgment that he'll vote for it.

"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay.  So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program..."

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Constitution R.I.P
So, CSpan at 11:15 everybody?  I'll be there.

http://thepajamapundit.com/
It will pass because democrats believe they'll be in charge of all three branches soon and they won't have a Bush to hide behind and blame if something happens. Ever looked into who the trial lawyers are behind the suits and who they give money to?
On FISA - not perfect, but a workable compromise.  Speaking of immunity for Bush:

Does anyone think Rove will show up tomorrow?  I really wish congress would stand down and delay this proceeding.  I'm not sure if we are pushing up against a statute of limitation; but if they compel testimony or invoke contempt this early in the game, doesn't Bush ultimately have the power to pardon him.  I'd rather wait to push this issue until January 21st 2009.  I am not a lawyer, and I don't watch them on tv; but is there more to this than my simpleton review?
Mark,Seattle (Sent Tuesday, July 08, 2008 11:23 AM)
This rant was dead-on.  Thanks, I was in meetings yesterday – it was nice to see you had my back.
This means I will be supporting progressive challengers to sitting Democrats.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'.
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.
-- Bob Dylan
Greg in Pinecrest, FL wrote: "you all are just really filled with fear and cowardice as to what is really needed to be done and this hack obama provides a perfect channel for the "run and hide' crowd(liberal dems).   wimps one and all."  Hey Greg, congratulations on being the worst of the chickenhawk cowards.  You continue to cheerlead for a President who CUT-AND-RAN from the real fight in Afghanistan.  7 years, $1 Trillion spent, 4,000 Americans dead, 30,000 Americans wounded.  And the ONE man who attacked us on 9/11?  Still free and we haven't laid a glove on him.  You're the coward and the moron for continuing to support a President who runs his mouth and then runs from the fight like the true chickenhawk that he is.  You must feel proud to be on such a heroic team.
I believe the telecommunications industry was coerced by Bush, and the dark lord, et al.

It is the latter that should face charges, (these, as well as, others), and or civil suits.

If they had accomplished a mission that hunted Osama Bin Laden to the end's of the caves, that would be different. But they took their eye off the ball. They saw a way to turn our outrage over 9/11, (and thereby their agenda), to oil profiteering.

Hundreds of thousands of people are dead, or maimed as a result. They should be charged as war criminals, and everybody knows it!
Obama, please do not vote for this bill. I've supported you through your whole campaign giving what I could afford. You'll still get my vote, but my contributions will end.
Wow, only 75 minutes for the democrats to cave in to bush and the false promise of trading privacy for security...

Barry is showing such courage in the face of adversity...lmao
Corporate vs. Constitution
Bush and Cheney and Rove should go to jail.
Yea!  GWB wins again!!!!!   Just remember folks, on election day, Throw the Bums Out!!!!!!!
Let us now take a moment of silence to mourn the passing of the fourth amendment.  It was a glorious amendment that protected Americans from illegal search and siezure.  

May it rest in peace.  

Amen
FISA- another example of obama breaking his word.
The amendments being offered certainly show why congress has an approval rating of 8.
Real loser today. Fourth Amendment of the US Constitution, i.e the right to be secure against unreasonable search and seizures.  Shame on W Bush, and all republicans.
Yes, I understand Obama will vote for the bill, I'm disappointed in his vote also.  A sad day for the US Consitution/Bill of Rights.
Brandon,

In my opinion America is the greatest nation on earth because we have the greatest chance for freedom, given to us by the greatest governing documents on earth; The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of The United States of America, and The Bill of Rights.

WE just have to stand-up for them. We must speak up when necessary, and be willing to die for them if need be.
Amy, Portland, Maine -

Try not to get too discouraged. I too believe a great many of John McCain’s gaffes go unnoticed by most of the media. If you find like I do a large portion of the commentators  continue to pounce on Barack Obama, turn them off.  Most of their remarks are false. I never understood the mindset of the Republican Party. They are a shallow, mean spirited bunch. They talk about being patriotic, but they don’t serve. My whole family has. So I don’t know what “patriotic” means anymore. If you listen to them, only “middle America” serves in the military. Only Republicans “serve”. Only the people in PA and Ohio and W. Virginia “work hard”. Only Republicans have “family values”. Why do you think the south went republican after the Civil Rights legislation was passed?

It’s mindboggling really.

Just look at the shape we’re in after 8 years - actually since 1995 when Newt Gingrich & the Republicans first took over power in DC. So what’s important is not what they (Buchanan, Scarborough, O’Reilly, Hannity, Kristol) have to say - it’s only important what Barack Obama has to say.

The media didn’t assist him in becoming the nominee. Senator Obama did it with help from his excellent campaign.

We just want someone we can be proud of. So forget the right wing in the media - they are going to hold up John McCain every chance they get. Don’t listen. Turn them off.

They have been wrong every step of the way and they will never ever wake up. Or maybe they just don’t have the guts to speak out.  They are followers - they like leaders who can show them how to think.

Senator Obama will have an awful lot to clean up, yet the right wing will continue to ridicule him.

This is their mess they created.
Obama said this bill is a compromise he is not happy with but could live with.  He's wrong.  This is a cave-in, a complete capitulation and cover-up of the felonies committed by this administration anf the telecoms..  

What is the Congress immunizing the telecoms from?  We don't even know what they did to require immunity.
What was the Prsident and Vice-Presidents role?  Did they commit a felony or nultiple felonies?  'Countdown', last evening, reported that the President could have been charged with as many as 30 felonies.  Why are we placing the President above the law?  It's no wonder he said that he would veto the bill without the immunity clause.  It's a complete CYA for the administration and Congress.  To veto this bill he our telecom intercept capabilities would be interupted causing harm to the country.  Yet, immunity takes precedence.

To me, with the passage of this bill, renders the 4th Amendment useless.  They are covering up crimes and should be charged with accessories after the fact.

RIP...the 4th Amendment to the Constitution.
I wish Obama wouldn't vote for this bill. Bush and the telecommunications should not get away with infringing on the privacy rights of innocent Americans.
Those who would sacrifice freedom for temporary security deserve neither. - Ben Franklin
I would tell all you people that feel Obama has "granted" retroactive immunity by voting for this bill to look at "The Verdict" with Dan Abrams from last night.  

The bill actually provides clarity to FISAs role and doesn't grant telecoms retroactive immunity... because the LAW (even previous to what has transpired) has said telecoms are immune when the AG requests their assistance.  With this bill, immunity will only apply in those VERY CASES!!  Immunity will not be given to any telecom that did things on their own or when requested by anyone-- other than the AG.  It also ensures that Bush and the administration make available to the senate and house all that transpired (something the previous bill, didn't) during that timeframe.  

Is it a violation of the 4th amendment?  Depends on your view--but it's always been the LAW.  If a telecom is asked for assistance by the AG, they are provided immunity--that has always been the case!  

If they did it thru other channels, they will still be hammered!
remember it was the rethugnutz who said the US  Constitution was quaint and outdated so if you want the US Constitution thrown out all together then vote mccant if you want the US Constittuion upheld then barak is your man.
I wish he wouldn't compromise on this one ...
Denying immunity to law breaking corporations is important

But ........
.... I STILL SUPPORT OBAMA

He's head and shoulders above the competition

An d I don't think he's 'moving to the center' on important issues

The whole Iraq thing is a non-issue
He ALWAYS SAID that he'd be 'as careful getting out of Iraq as we were reckless getting in'

I'll support that !!

Obama/Edwards '08
The BEST we have
I can't wait to see the twisted logic that is going to come from the PUMA/McCain trolls.  "I'm so mad at Obama on this one issue that I'm going to support his opponent who is completely against privacy!"  Anyone who spouts this type of logic needs to be immediately debunked.  Speaking of the so-called "maverick", when is the last time that he has shown up to vote?  He hasn't spent his time smartly organizing a campaign so what has he been doing?  All I've seen is major campaign shakeups and disarray.  He doesn't even have a core message besides "I was a POW therefore I'm entitled to the Presidency."  The chicken-hearted media still refuse to press him to answer on what his response is to the Iraq government wanting timetables for American troop withdrawal.  McCain stated it himself in 2004 when he said that we would leave if asked to do so by the "sovereign" government of Iraq.  I guess that he assumed that we would have secured those no-bid oil contracts by now.  Instead of this, the media will manage to create an imaginary firestorm about the FISA bill and attempt to create some intraparty fighting.  The good senator's position is very firmly stated on his website--just in case some of you actually cared.
Those who would sacrifice freedom for temporary security deserve neither. - Ben Franklin
John B, Des Moines, IA (Sent Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:46 AM)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Well said! A VERY VERY appropriate quote for the FISA mess and this administration in general!
This is an imperfect law and a compromise. According to Obama, he feels that the law still needs to be on the books.  Democrats are willing to compromise on this for now and vote.

He will change it later and clean it up.

Barack is accountable. Have faith.

Hold on folks—6 months of this and then the law will count again.
Maybe he'll vote 'present.'  
most people that are against this have little knowledge of the history of FISA and this revision (and i say again a REVISION) of this bill....we had FISA laws for a few decades now...the problem was that BUSH ignored those laws already and went on and did things unconstitutionally...

this bill is to put those laws back in play and force bush or any other future president to not be irresponsible with our liberities of the 4th amendment....

by REJECTING this bill would mean that the 4th amendment is not protected at all! and bush continues doing whutever...it's not a perfect bill, but it's better than no bill at all and keeping things just as they are...which one would you rather choose? i'd rather have this and get obama elected and get it modified again to the way we want it....
I don't understand how people can get so fired up over protecting the 2nd amendment (right to bear arms), but when it comes to the 4th hardly anyone seems to care. People are weird.
FR:

'... McCain was asked about the increase in US exports to Iran during the Bush Administration, with the largest export being cigarettes. “Maybe that’s a way of killing them,” McCain said, laughing...'


That's sooooooo funny !
IS this Boy an IDIOT or what ?
McCain is a COMPLETE BOZO


John McCain, there’s No Fool like an Old Fool
(and I DO mean FOOL)

John McCain: Bomb, bomb, bomb ... Bomb, Bomb Iran
...But last month when Democratic leaders cut a deal with the Bush Administration on wiretapping -- a deal that places tighter restrictions on terrorist surveillance but still granted telecoms immunity -- Obama dropped his defiant stance. While still acknowledging the Bush Administration, "has abused that authority and undermined the Constitution," he said he'd support the bill.

In a written statement shortly after the House passed the compromise, Obama said of the bill, "while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's." The statement went on to detail a various improvements in the bill, but ended with a reluctant acknowledgment that he'll vote for it.

"It is not all that I would want. But given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay.  So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program...

********************************************************************************

There we go. This is what I mean. The original bill that prompted the original remarks by Obama was amended. lMore information, better clarification.

I trust Obama.

Thankyou MSNBC.


I am so  tired of people complaining about their loss of privacy when it comes to these issues when the majorinty of the people of the United States (99.9%) are in no way affected.  Yet let one of these very same people become involved personally or through family with an act of terorism and watch how fast they complain and file a law suit saying that their government didn't go far enough to protect them (after they insure that the government's hands are tied securely with no room for adjustment to the situation.  I believe that domestic surveilence in this day and age is a necessity if done with accurate oversite.  You can't retain the majority of your freedoms if you are required to live in fear.
Brandon,

In my opinion America is the greatest nation on earth because we have the greatest chance for freedom, given to us by the greatest governing documents on earth; The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of The United States of America, and The Bill of Rights.

WE just have to stand-up for them. We must speak up when necessary, and be willing to die for them if need be.
donna (Sent Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:41 AM)
.................................................

Donna:

You would be absolutely right if we lived in the democracy our founding fathers imagined. A system of checks and balances, a Constitution enforced by an impartial Supreme Court.  That system is long gone.
We can go to war without a declaration of war by congress.  Right wing supreme court judges are making rulings based in moral and religious beliefs and not the intent of our framers or the Constitution.  Congress has become a rubber stamp for an administration that has no regard for the rights of its citizens. By voting for this travesty of a bill today, Obama will be another politican looking for votes.  He is a constitutional lawyer and scholar and of all people in that Senate chamber today, he should know better.   Shame on him for not taking a stand!

THE IMMUNITY IS FOR THE TELCOMS!! NOT THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION!!

THIS BILL IS A COMPROMISE AND A GOOD ONE.

WE NOW WILL HAVE FISA COURT OVERSIGHT ON THE WIRETAPPING, AND WE CAN STILL TAKE THE RESPONSIBLE ADMINISTRATION LAWBREAKERS TO TASK IN THE FUTURE!!

POLITICS 101...PROTECT THE COUNTRY FIRST!! THEN CLEAN UP THE "RAT'S NEST" WHEN IN OFFICE!!
"MICHELLE ZEE - OBAMA HAS SWITCHED.  OBAMA'S FLIP-FLOP AND FAILURE TO LIVE UP TO HIS PROMISE TO OPPOSE THIS LEGISLATION GIVES IMMUNITY TO BUSH FOR MULTIPLE FELONIES AND GIVES CIVIL IMMUNITY TO THE TELECOMS.
Carole, Ft. Laud (Sent Wednesday, July 09, 2008 9:46 AM)"

Note that it protects against CIVIL, NOT CRIMINAL prosecution.  Please tell me where the flip-flop comes in...?
Pat in Boston -

Thanks for your comments to Amy.

They inspired me as well!

FISA is what it is. Senator Obama did what he thought was best. Everyone will not agree, but it is time to move on.

In the Obama Administration, with a Democratic Congress, this bill and so many others can be recrafted and improved. Let's keep our eyes on the BIG PICTURE this time, and not fall for the usual distractions.
Obama...bouncing like a red rubber ball.  If you want real change, folks, vote out every incumbent in Congress.  You want change but keep sending the same old people back.  Throw em out. I'm tired of my rights being violated.
That sound you hear?  The Founding Fathers rolling over in their graves as the Fourth Amendment is eviscerated.

Good luck to us all, we are going to need it.
Don't you people realize that Democrats don't want to go after Bush on criminal charges.  They wouldn't even entertain the idea of impeachment.  America's reputation as a whole is on blast in the world.  The idea that we could vote someone in twice to the highest office in the land and then arrest him would be a huge embarrassment on us entirely.  The Democrats don't want to see this plague our nation.

It's ironic to hear people say that because Obama changes his mind on FISA that they will vote for him, but not campaign or give donations.  What a farce.  So the fact that you agree with him on 90% of the issues as whole is trumped by 1 or 2 things you don't?  Are we adults here?  You can't be a true supporter and have a over reaction like this.  He didn't flip0-flop either.  He was against the original version of the bill and when changes were made, although flawed, he changed his position.  I call that his perogative.  Please keep in mind that the law always existed before FISA granting immunity to telecoms...and that FISA didn't grant retroactive immunity.  Please learn your facts before saying goodbye to the Constition...it's been gone.  We just recently woke up and paid attention to the fact and some people are trying to blame Obama solely for it.  The real kicker is that if he voted against it, it would still pass...and the Republicans would call him soft all of the way until November.  Stop blaming Obama for this!

Obama '08
The GOP are so stupid; if the bill changes and update or deletion are made, etc.

Then any previous comment about such bill, becomes irrelevant.  Thus, you must change your previous view based it on what has been changed.

THE GOP are a bush of weak bastards...they still thing we are too stupid to see through their BS talking points.

Thank you and GOD BLESS AMERICA
Just how many people have actually had their conversations listened in on?  Do we really say things that we don't want anyone to hear on the phone?  I know, I know, I agree with keeping the Constitution intact, but remember what goes around comes around.  Remember, that Senator Obama did say that his attorney general will review things left undone and would't it just be lovely for John Edwards to go after Dick Cheney?  I would love it!  and that would be true justice!  
I heard that guy on Countdown say that he didn't think that anyone would push for criminal charges, I believe you underestimate Senator Obama - I do believe he will go after them and  -  They Know it!  That's why the new smear campaign with the fake Dowd article.  This will not be the end of it, keep supporting Obama, he will deliver in the end!
Obama gave a very dismissive response. I am very disappointed in this decision. He could at least give a proper explanation of his reversal. There stinks of pure politics.
Thank you, Pat Boston. Would you believe I woke up this morning brooding about the way Obama's patriotism was questioned during the ABC News Debate? Maybe because I went to bed angry over a Kathleen Parker column in my local paper impugning Obama's character and extolling McCain's military service. Or, because last night on CSI they had a storyline where special agents complained about having to get get search warrants in pursuit of terrorists and ridiculing the "law expert who graduated from Harvard" in their office for insisting they follow the law. I'm already boycotting ABC News, maybe I just need to turn all the media off. (Except First Read)Thanks again.
The fact that Senator Obama will vote for the bill after he came out against it only a year ago is wrong.  I would like to know (I wish we had a sunshine law like FL has) what immunities these companies will receive.  I think that since the democrats are split on this issue tells me that Obama is just trying to break party lines to look like he is reaching to Republicans.  Just part of his makeover from being a liberal to middle of the road!!  Meanwhile its a sad day for the US Constitution/Bill of Rights.

Laura, Boston

Please MSNBC print my blog.....
Hi all.  culturethreads.com has an absolute must read morning thoughts section today.  Everyone interested in politics should read it and forward it to their friends.  Just one gal's opinion......

culturethreads.com
Ira, Freehold, NJ -- we are paying $5 a gallon for gas and are in a recession . . .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both lies. You have no credibility.

But both will be true if Obama is ever President.
Gage Walker, Spokane WA (Sent Tuesday, July 08, 2008 2:26 PM)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Walker:
I don’t know what world you are living in but here in the good old USA, we folks in the northeast are paying over $5 a gallon for gas.  The national average is over $4.10 and that does not include city and state taxes.
If you believe that this country is not in a recession, that the economy is just “slowing” as Senator McCain phrased it, then you must disagree with the vast majority of financial experts in this country.  People like Warren Buffet and his ilk.  They must be liars and be void of credibility also.
I really would love to live on the planet you reside on!

Ira, Freehold, NJ (Sent Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:52 PM)

---------------

Apparently you're going to the full service stations in NJ Ira. Highest gas price found in NJ was in Summit at $4.89, but that was very high price with the next highest being $4.41. A Shell in Summit had gas at $4.12. People on a budget found gas for $3.83 in NJ. Source:newjerseygasprices.com

In Freehold - lowest price is $3.86 - Highest is $4.13, far from the $5.00 you propose. So if we're on different planets, it looks like I'm on Earth, and you're on some other planets "New Jersey".

Also, the US is not in a recession, even though liberals who wish pain on others hope it was in recession. Two successive quarters of negtive growth are required for a recession to occur. The US is currently at 0 quarters of negative growth. Warren Buffett can whine all he wants about it, but those are the facts.

Gage Walker, Spokane WA (Sent Tuesday, July 08, 2008 6:37 PM)
............................................

Once again Walker you have it partially correct.

Your are absolutely correct that the TECHNICAL DEFINITION is as you described.  The technical definition of a war is one declared by congress, not empowered by a war powers act.  I would argue that technical definitions mean nothing to the mothers, fathers, wives and children who have lost loved one in Iraq.  Its a war Mr. Walker, technical definition or not. Technical definitions are for people with an agenda who have no concept of what real peple are going through.

There are no self-serve gas stations in NJ, only full serve.  Self serve is against NJ state law but of course, in your research, you found that out.  

Gas n Monmouth county, where I live, now averages over $4.15 a gallon. Unfortunately my business requires that I drive to clients in New York City.  Average there over $5.25.  Don't care what your book says, that's a flat out fact.  

May I respectfully suggest that instead of relying on outdated statistics from a book, you speak to real people in the area and get the "facts on the ground" as McCain says, before making judgements or accusations.



I wish people would research the changes Obama helped change in this compromise. the Fisa bill now has significant limitations tieing the hands of those trying to use this imperfect "tool".

The best option to help bide time before he can abolish it "as" POTUS, when he has the executive authority to do so.
In terms of FISA, please read the entirety of Title VIII.  I'm thinking of Arlen Specter's suggestion last fall that prosecution of FISA cases be shifted from telecoms to Plaintiff v. the Federal Government.  Have a look?  Do you agree?

2 articles on FISA today at
http://ilfamilypolitics.blogspot.com
In the last month or so, Sen. Obama has changed positions on Iraq, FISA, Separation of Church and State, and Public Financing.

Actions speak better than words.

We don’t trust him with the war. We don’t trust him with the economy.  We don’t trust him with our country. We don’t trust him with our lives.

No Trust. NObama.


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