Last night was very interesting. Jonathan Turley said it isn't the authors of the torture memos who we should be concentrating on. It is our former president, our former vice president, our former Attorney General and former CIA head. For it is they who ordered the memos be written.

Senate Armed Service Committee  - the torture was done to find a link between September 11th and Iraq. Did this torture work?  Did Iraq have WMDs? Have we found Bin Laden?

NYT: The Bush Administration did no due diligence to see if torture has been successful in the past, before they put their policies into motion.

Valerie Plame- outed. I can’t imagine the Bush Administration have many friends in the CIA.
_________________
I have a feeling that this isn’t only about torture. I think it is also about Iraq and how it is we got there. And I would not shed one tear if Bush, Cheney, et al paid a price for what they did in Iraq. Not one single tear. For the Iraqi’s to have paid the price for September 11th is unconscionable.

BACK ON TRACK
Justice returns to the office of the DOJ

Why did President Obama change his mind regarding the prosecution of those involved with torture?  The answer says a lot about our President.

1) He listened.  He listened to Keith Olbermann, Jonathan Turley, and the millions of people who supported him.  CHUCK TODD missed the point, saying it was simply a left-wing pushback.  The majority of Americans believe that those who break the law are criminals and criminals should be prosecuted.  
2) Our President has a strong moral compass.  He wants to do the right thing. President Obama did not approve of politicizing the DOJ.  Gonzales and Rove did great damage to the DOJ, by firing attorneys based on their political beliefs.  Although tempted to influence the DOJ, he backed off to allow Eric Holder to do his job. He believes in enforcing the law.
3) He learned from past lessons.  From President Obama’s point of view, what mistake did he make that warranted an apology?  He wanted to hire Tom Daschle when the information said “no”.  In short, he wanted to impose his will when the data said, “Don’t go there.”  The American people are saying don’t go there, and he rethought his position.

Eric Holder has little choice but to hire a special prosecutor. It creates an arms length between the administration and the investigation.

In his inauguration speech, with Bush 43 setting nearby, President Obama articulated the importance of National Values, but not at the expense of Homeland Security.  Our President is striving for both.  That is why he wants to give immunity to rank and file CIA employees.  He needs them to stay focused on keeping our country safe.

One thought on bipartisanship:  The republicans will not participate in any Congressional investigation.  This shows that they are not willing to protect their own.  When someone testifies before a congressional committee, there will be no one to ask “softball” questions, or assist the person under oath.  Republicans will stand in the lobby and criticize what is going on, but will not help their own.

I'm so glad that Barack Hussein Obama is leaving the door open for Eric Holder to do his job of bringing justice to the lawbreakers who wrote those torture memos.  I'm so enjoying hearing the repugnant ones squeal about getting their filthy noses rubbed in their own hubris of enhanced interrogation techniques.  I'm getting a real laugh out of the idiots saying that Obama revealed our torture techniques making them less useful in the future.  Hey wake up OIbama stopped the torture business and since there will no longer be torture he revealed nothing except the perfidy of the immoral minority.

"Or is that a tingle feeling running down by leg?"
The Last Living Democrat

Hey LLD - Your Depends OverFloweth!  Now go change your Depends and you won't feel that Tinkle running down your leg anymore.

In Obama We Trust!

Am I the only one who thinks Rahm's appearance and statemens were a political ploy to 'test' the atmosphere and blow back on the topic?  I imagine that good staff are constantly 'floating' ideas to see what the public appetite is for action or inertia.

I have been consistent in my position that this must be pursued and criminals must be dealt with.  These are FELONY level crimes.  UNLIKE undocumented workers.
---------
and from yesterday (or prior):

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Richard, WA State

I say, Coleman is entitled to his day in court; but the writing is on the wall.  Al Gore was pressured to concede with FAR MORE at stake and far less certainty.  Klobuchar is fine.  Al Franken is highly intellectual and I think he will prove to be a very good Senator for the state of Minnesota.  I was consulting in Minnesota when Paul Wellstone died two weeks before their election, and because that situation was so similar to our beloved Governor, Mel Carnahan, I was pretty plugged in to how Norm Coleman (and the Republican propaganda machine) literally washed the election in the blood of Wellstone to 'win' public perception.  It was a national effort and it was a SAD state of affairs for Minnesotans and Americans.

I think those tactics, as much as anything else, is what the majority of the country denounced in the 2008 election.  I know I did!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I notice no one on this post has acknowledged WHY we even entered into the Geneva Convention?  As a 'powerful' nation we agreed that we would NOT use torture.  To renege on that because we are 'afraid' of the terrorists pretty much diminishes our power.  I think using torture makes us seem weak and afraid.  Being the world wide School Yard Bully doesn't promote my ideals and values.  Holding the garden hose on an anthill makes us seem petty, weak and insignificant.  Because so many Obama Haters refuse to acknowledge or employ reasoning as a problem solving method, they are imprisoned in an ideology that I can't even understand, let alone try to reason with.  So I will say it in terms that I think they DO understand.  Might is NOT right.  Being stronger doesn't mean you FIRST go to the gun safe.  Being a leader means finding ways to DEAL with conflict, not just shooting the opposition because you can.

I have been reading these 'crazy' posts today and I have to say, I am much more afraid of my fellow Americans than I am the collective 'enemy' they want me to fear.  How shameful is that?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Any cowards that disagree? (Sent Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:13 AM)

They carted Jack Nicholson away in A Few Good Men for just that same mentality.  If you want a lawless society MOVE to some other country,...MY COUNTRY was founded on Constitutional principles that are greater than your need to diminish them when expedient to do so.

PS.  Speaking of Cowards, what's your real name?

^^^^^^^^^^^^

http://feingold.senate.gov/

Thank Russ Feingold today.  This issue must NOT be swept under the rug.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
“…What was it Lenin said?  "Get them by the stomachs and genitals, and their hearts and minds will follow"... “  no joe, no bo, nj (Sent Tuesday, April 21, 2009 12:57 PM)

I think it was Polly Bergen that said the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach.  I had a crazy aunt who thought us girls should learn etiquette and social skills.  Thank goodness I was a non-conformist, even then.  My 46 year old sister is still waiting for some guy to come along and rescue her.

PS.  I’ve been wondering what the appropriate waiting period is to ask you what you have against the Obama’s new dog?  “no bo”,…ha ha.

Leaving the door open? What Obama has done by cherry picking the CIA documents he wants to release is turned this entire thing into the same old politics we've seen in the past. Obama let out the memos that showed the Bush administration used extreme measures to get information, but he forgot to show that results of those measures saved many, many lives in the US. So what Obama has done now is make this entire thing political, not moral. Cheney is actually taking Obama to the cleaners over this mess. Obama is really going to have a problem on his hands as more and more information is made available about how successful Bush was at protecting the country.

On the topic of the torture memos and the duty of the US to protect its citizens:

Here is what I don’t understand.  Perhaps someone can explain it to me.  The conversation on this topic, in both the MSM and this blog, is along these lines: “We need to stick to the rule of law!” followed by “These tactics proved successful.  Would you risk American lives to not do it?”

Here’s the problem I have with this.  Why is no one asking the big question: why do these tactics in the first place?  Were the old methods, within the rule of law, not working anymore?  If so, I think there is a legitimate moral question present as to whether these “enhanced interrogation” tactics are OK, where they produce valuable information that would not have otherwise been obtained.

But so far (as far as I’m aware), no one is saying that.  The memo’s that have been released to us have not indicated that this was the case.  I frankly don’t understand their reasoning.  Why engage in these types of activities if the original methods proved just as useful?  

The more I think about it, I think it comes down to this: a group of people were scared and angry, and decided to take revenge on those that they saw as the enemy.  The decision to engage in these behaviors was drive by a desire to hurt back, rather than to gather intelligence.  After all, if the humane techniques in line with the law would produce the same information, why else use these illegal tactics?

In the end, I suppose it’s human nature.  I can remember shortly after 9/11, I saw reports in the news of attacks on Muslims on the campus where I was attending college.  Perhaps the decision to engage in these behaviors was driven by the same irrational feelings as the attackers at my school.

Which brings me to another question: the local police arrested those attackers, and they were prosecuted, because our community (a very conservative community, I might add) did not want to encourage such acts.  Shouldn’t we prosecute the people that authorized and engaged in these tactics?  While I certainly understand  that feeling of fear and need for revenge, is that the kind of thing we want to encourage in our country?

Thanks for your time.

*** Flashback time: Speaking of Pennsylvania and primaries… A year ago today, Hillary Clinton defeated Barack Obama in the Democratic presidential primary in Pennsylvania. Time sure flies by, huh?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And this is relevant why??  Didn't work out for Hillary too well now did it?  

Can't you guys just let it go??

PS.  President Obama, nor his administration, should have anything at all to do with any investigations regarding torture.  This rests SOLELY on the DOJ.

G-d help us, this DOJ is exponentially more competent than the last, else technicalities will become "innocence".

The Obama administration’s instinct is not to look backward. It's a phrase the president uses all the time
******************************************************
Another phrase the president uses all the time:  I inherited this.  Obama has no problem looking backward if he thinks it makes him look good.

Weak. Very weak Obama. Telling everyone it's Holders call on if persecutions of the Bush administration will go forward. That's your job Obama. That's your pay-grade. Obama needs to take responsibility once in his worthless life for something.

Ron Indiana (Sent Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:29 AM)

excellent post.  I go you one further and would even encourage those involved to allow "W" to select a couple of representatives to be a part of a bipartisan commission.  I think every voice must be heard on this; but ultimately, in the restoration of our Constitution, justice must prevail.

…Stein adds today that Harman was captured on an NSA wiretap conspiring with an Israeli agent to apply pressure on DOJ officials to scale back the AIPAC prosecution …’.

They were being presecuted for espionage AGAINST the US




From Salon.com:



‘…Glenn Greenwald

Monday April 20, 2009 07:35 EDT

Major scandal erupts involving Rep. Jane Harman, Alberto Gonzales and AIPAC



‘… story from CQ's Jeff Stein, which involves allegations of major corruption and serious criminal activity on the part of Democratic Rep. Jane Harman.  Here's one crucial prong of the story:



Rep. Jane Harman , the California Democrat with a longtime involvement in intelligence issues, was overheard on an NSA wiretap telling a suspected Israeli agent that she would lobby the Justice Department to reduce espionage-related charges against two officials of the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee, the most powerful pro-Israel organization in Washington .



Harman was recorded saying she would “waddle into” the AIPAC case “if you think it’ll make a difference,” according to two former senior national security officials familiar with the NSA transcript.



In exchange for Harman’s help, the sources said, the suspected Israeli agent pledged to help lobby Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., then-House minority leader, to appoint Harman chair of the Intelligence Committee after the 2006 elections, which the Democrats were heavily favored to win.



Seemingly wary of what she had just agreed to, according to an official who read the NSA transcript, Harman hung up after saying, “This conversation doesn’t exist.”



That's not even the most significant part.  Back in October, 2006, Time reported that the DOJ and FBI were investigating whether Harman and AIPAC  "violated the law in a scheme to get Harman reappointed as the top Democrat on the House intelligence committee" and "the probe also involves whether, in exchange for the help from AIPAC, Harman agreed to help try to persuade the Administration to go lighter on the AIPAC officials caught up in the ongoing investigation."  So that part has been known since 2006.



Stein adds today that Harman was captured on an NSA wiretap conspiring with an Israeli agent to apply pressure on DOJ officials to scale back the AIPAC prosecution.  But the real crux of Stein's scoop is that then-Attorney General Alberto Gonazles intervened to kill the criminal investigation into Harman -- even though DOJ lawyers had concluded that she committed crimes -- because top Bush officials wanted Harman's credibility to be preserved so that she could publicly defend the Bush administration's illegal warrantless eavesdropping program:



[C]ontrary to reports that the Harman investigation was dropped for “lack of evidence,” it was Alberto R. Gonzales, President Bush’s top counsel and then attorney general, who intervened to stop the Harman probe.



Why? Because, according to three top former national security officials, Gonzales wanted Harman to be able to help defend the administration’s warrantless wiretapping program, which was about to break in The New York Times and engulf the White House. . . .



Justice Department attorneys in the intelligence and public corruption units who read the transcripts decided that Harman had committed a “completed crime,” a legal term meaning that there was evidence that she had attempted to complete it, three former officials said. . . .



Then-CIA Director Porter J. Goss reviewed the Harman transcript and signed off on the Justice Department’s FISA application. . . . Goss, a former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, deemed the matter particularly urgent because of Harman’s rank as the panel’s top Democrat.



But that’s when, according to knowledgeable officials, Attorney General Gonzales intervened.



According to two officials privy to the events, Gonzales said he “needed Jane” to help support the administration’s warrantless wiretapping program, which was about to be exposed by the New York Times.



Harman, he told Goss, had helped persuade the newspaper to hold the wiretap story before, on the eve of the 2004 elections. And although it was too late to stop the Times from publishing now, she could be counted on again to help defend the program



He was right.



On Dec. 21, 2005, in the midst of a firestorm of criticism about the wiretaps, Harman issued a statement defending the operation and slamming the Times, saying, “I believe it essential to U.S. national security, and that its disclosure has damaged critical intelligence capabilities.”



And thanks to grateful Bush administration officials, the investigation of Harman was effectively dead.



Indeed, as I've noted many times, Jane Harman, in the wake of the NSA scandal, became probably the most crucial defender of the Bush warrantless eavesdropping program, using her status as "the ranking Democratic on the House intelligence committee" to repeatedly praise the NSA program as "essential to U.S. national security" and "both necessary and legal."  She even went on Meet the Press to defend the program along with GOP Sen. Pat Roberts and Rep. Pete Hoekstra, and she even strongly suggested that the whistleblowers who exposed the lawbreaking and perhaps even the New York Times (but not Bush officials) should be criminally investigated, saying she "deplored the leak," that "it is tragic that a lot of our capability is now across the pages of the newspapers," and that the whistleblowers were "despicable."  And Eric Lichtblau himself described how Harman, in 2004, attempted very aggressively to convince him not to write about the NSA program.



Stein's entire story should be read.  It's a model of excellent reporting, as it relies on numerous sources with first-hand knowledge of the NSA transcripts (and what sweet justice it would be if Harman's guilt were established by government eavesdropping).  It should be noted that Harman has issued a general denial of wrongdoing (but does not appear to deny that she had the discussion Stein reports), and the sources in Stein's story are anonymous (though because they're disclosing classified information and exposing government wrongdoing, it's a classic case of when anonymity is justifiable; and note Stein's efforts to provide as much information as possible about his sources and why they are anonymous).



There are many questions that the story raises -- Josh Marshall notes just some of those vital questions here -- and Harman's guilt therefore shouldn't be assumed.  But obviously, given all the very serious issues this story raises -- involving what seem to be credible allegations of very serious wrongdoing by a key member of Congress, the former Attorney General and one of the most powerful lobbying organizations in the country -- full-scale investigations are needed, to put it mildly…’.

How is it that Jane Harmon can and would intervene in an espionage prosecution ?

How is it that the Israelis can determine who becomes Chairman of the Intelligence Committee ?

How is it that the Bush Admin would not prosecute Harmon is return for her support ?

Is that bribery ?

WHY would Obama consider a position for Harmon ?

Why would Israel want Harmon in charge of the Intelligence Committee ?

Our President has a strong moral compass.  He wants to do the right thing. President Obama did not approve of politicizing the DOJ
---------------------------------------------------
Ron in Indiana, Obama's decision to release redacted memos couldn't have been a more politicizing move.  Seriously, if you're going to release the memos that say we tortured, why not also release the portions of the memos that say what information we got out of the tortured suspects?  I can't think of any reason why not to do that.  

It would seem that for the republican party to try to purge itself of moderates is exactly what it does NOT need at this time.

But as a liberal leaning person, I see benefit in this. I think as long as the tone coming from the republican party continues to be one of far right and constant attacks on a popular president, they will continue to lag.

Perhaps they are gambling that down the road, President Obama won't be so popular and then they can ride the "I told you so" train?

Of course for that to happen, President Obama would have to make some major mistakes (in the eyes of the majority of Americans, not just the far right) without recovery. Given his performance during the campaign and in his first three months, that doesn't appear terribly likely.

It's Earth Day, and the obama administration has a present for us:  HUGE TAX INCREASES!!!!

I know, I know, he said he wouldn't raise taxes on any but the 'rich'.  So, the tax increases from cap and trade will only be on 'rich' energy producing companies-who will pass that cost on to us, in the form of higher prices for EVERYTHING.

Food, electricity, gas, clothing-anything that requires energy to produce.

The only thing that won't cost more are Obama's empty speeches-unless you have to listen to them on television, radio, or the internet.  

Has it really been less than 100 days?

Porter Goss was the WORST CIA head EVER !!

The most incompetent and corrupt CIA Director
(not exactly 'the best and the brightest')


Who felt safer under Bush ??

WHO Felt America was SAFER under Bush/Cheney/Goss ??

If you felt safer under Bush, you’re living in a Fool’s Paradise !!





Did Dusty Foggo make you feel safe ????

(Foggo ?? the name alone should have disqualified him from any position of responsibility)



‘…a spreading corruption scandal that had already looked into the actions of the CIA's number three official and its executive director, Kyle Dustin (Dusty) Foggo…’



Is THAT WHY Obama was CHEERED so WILDLY ??







GOOGLE: Porter Goss Scandals







From the Christian Science Monitor:





'... The Christian Science Monitor



Terrorism & Security

posted May 8, 2006 at 11:09 a.m.



Report: Scandal may have played role in Goss resignation



Media sources say a corruption investigation may have forced White House to act quickly on Goss, and may also touch other defense and intelligence officials.



By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com



A widening investigation into a corruption scandal in Congress may have played a key role in the decision by the White House to ask Central Intelligence Agency Director Porter Goss to step down.



The New York Daily News reported Sunday that a "little known White House advisory board" pushed President Bush to dump Mr. Goss as CIA head. The president's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board was reportedly alarmed by the investigation of a spreading corruption scandal that had already looked into the actions of the CIA's number three official and its executive director, Kyle Dustin (Dusty) Foggo, and may have indirectly touched on Goss himself.



The investigations have focused on the Watergate poker parties thrown by defense contractor Brent Wilkes, a high-school buddy of Foggo's, that were attended by disgraced former Rep. Randy (Duke) Cunningham and other lawmakers. Foggo has claimed he went to the parties "just for poker" amid allegations that Wilkes, a top GOP fund-raiser and a member of the $100,000 "Pioneers" of Bush's 2004 reelection campaign, provided prostitutes, limos and hotel suites to Cunningham.

Cunningham is serving an eight-year sentence after pleading to taking $2.4 million in bribes to steer defense contracts to cronies. Wilkes hosted regular parties for 15 years at the Watergate and Westin Grand Hotels for lawmakers and lobbyists. Intelligence sources said Goss has denied attending the parties as CIA director, but that left open whether he may have attended as a Republican congressman from Florida who was head of the House Intelligence Committee.



Harpers.org, the website of Harper's Magazine, reported in late April that the FBI was investigating " current and former lawmakers on Defense and Intelligence committees" as part of the scandal investigation. The Wall Street Journal also reported that in recent weeks the FBI has interviewed women from escort services in the Washington area, as well as obtained information from the Watergate Hotel, where many of the poker parties were allegedly held. While no other member of Congress has been implicated so far, if the FBI finds evidence of favors being given to lawmakers, it could lead to charges...'



Wow !!







Did you REALLY FEEL SAFER under George Bush ??

A Carnival of Corruption and Incompetence !!



Corruption, Incompetence, War Crimes, Crimes against Humanity, Hookers…..



Maybe THAT’S WHY Obama was CHEERED so HEARTILY at the CIA !!!

WHO felt SAFER UNDER BUSH ???

Only pawns will fall....No one in the royal court will.....

"Breaking news: David Kellermann, Freddie Mac’s acting chief financial officer, was found dead at his home in Northern Virginia. Police say he apparently committed suicide."

My immediate reaction to this was, "Thank goodness it wasn't familicide".  What causes someone to end it?  I am forever mystified.  I have certainly had my share of trauma; but I'd much rather stick around and make everyone else miserable,...okay - bad timing for a joke.

Very sad, I pray for his family.

From a post yesterday...

---------------------------------------

Did we all forget about 9-11-2001. Are the polls on this president correct? God help us all. We are doomed.
rick, lutz, fl (Sent Tuesday, April 21, 2009 1:58 PM)

---------------------------------------

By God, Rick, I must have totally forgotten all about 9/11!  Silly me.

Yes, the images of the planes hitting the WTC totally slipped my mind!

Yeah, I totally forgot about my friends Joe and Linda who were passengers aboard United Flight 93!

Oopsie, I guess I didn't remember my fraternity brother Ken who was killed when one of the WTC towers fell because he went back in after carrying a woman out of the building and down onto the street!

And, my cousin and her husband who made it out of the WTC safely before the towers fell, well, my bad!

There it is...question any move made by the neocons in the White House and you get 9/11 rubbed back in your face like you're a dog who just crapped on the carpet.

I sick and tired of 9/11 being used to justify immoral, unethical and/or criminal behavior and I'll be damned if you think we should just sit back while you dishonor the heroes and those who lost their lives on that day by using their memories to justify breaking the law!

SCREW YOU!!!

You know what is really sad?

That our country has become so politicized that we can't all agree that if the law is broken, there should at least be an INVESTIGATION of what happened.

Chuck, yesterday you asked how high up the prosecutions (if there are any) would go. I thought in this country we followed the evidence wherever it led? Or was that just spin too?

Borrowed from a song "I fought the law and the law won".  Defending the country does not warrant breaking the law nor does it give you the right to trample on the very Constitution you were sworn to uphold!

Torture and spying reports disclosed: http://www.governmentalityblog.com/my_weblog/2009/04/fed-judge-orders-fbi-to-close-bush-era-spy-files.html

A message must be sent to the rest of the world that Americans did not approve of nor will we tolerate torture. Bush will not be wearing an orange jumpsuit, but his VP surely is a prime candidate for such attire.

I have a thought about the behavior of President Obama.

Folks complain about the fact that he does not show anger and agitation.

Barak Obama is SINCERE and honest and follows his path as a caring and listening President.

He does not ACT and CARRY-ON like John Mccain and Linsay Grahmn and Co. They are phonies and do not care about us Amercians, just their jobs and egos.

I am glad the President Obama weighs everything and acts accordingly!

The Kellerman suicide has got to eat at Obama's buddy Franklin Raines knowing he walked away with 12 million taxpayer dollars and no consequences.

>>>Is the Republican Party big enough to support moderates hailing from blue and purple states? Or is it strictly an anti-tax, anti-spending, anti-abortion, and anti-immigration party?
==========
Obviously they've chosen the latter identity.  Moderates no longer have a place in GOP politics.  People like Palin, Bachmann, Jindal, and Joe the Plumber are the new face of the Generally Obsolete and Pathetic party.

http://jawillie.blog.com

Back in the day, Republicans spent millions of taxpayer dollars, with Ken Starr leading the way, on his investigation of President and Mrs. Clinton. They tirelessly looked under every rock they could find to dig up dirt on the President and ended up with absolutely nothing. Then the Lewinsky scandal and the right rabidly focused on this story to the point of obsession, but successfully impreached a perfectly good President.

Bill Clinton had not placed one American in harm's way, had not cost the country billions of dollars fighting an unnecessary war, had not outed one CIA agent, nor forfeited the USA's integrity by ignoring the law or bending the law til it screamed.

Those responsible for the sanctioning of torture tactics must pay for these criminal actions. President Bush, Cheney, and all others involved must be chastised by the the law they so blatantly ignored for years.

Wonder if the U.S. will sell Israel the rocket intercept system israel is asking for: http://www.governmentalityblog.com/my_weblog/2009/04/israel-hopes-to-buy-us-rocket-intercept-system.html

I just don't understand the republican party leadership these days.  The clear data shows that they've been losing big time since 2006 as moderates have jumped ship and independents have leaned to the dems. One would think that they would realize they should moderate their message a bit, and go back to what they claim to be their bread and butter issues - reduced gov't, less taxes, fiscal conservatism, and personal freedom and liberty.  Of course, its the latter which is what is getting them in the biggest trouble...more and more people are getting put off by the socially ultra-right wing religious positions the party as a whole is taking, because its controlled by a bunch of socially backwards nuts.

As for Corzine in NJ, I think he better get on the populist anti-tax bandwagon in that state, because what's killing people there is their record high property taxes, which is mainly the result of many many many layers of gov't in that state.  Too many little towns and villages and municipalities and taxing districts...forced consolidation is needed there to eliminate redundancy is gov't services and to increase the buying power of those that are left.  

My how time flies, that flashback story is funny as we now see Hillary sitting behind Barack at the America's conference laughing when Hugo gave Barack the book and handshake.

Happy Earth Day!  Let's celebrate taking care of our wonderful world and our only nest.  Time to clean up the environmental disaster known as the bushwhacker administration and the republic party.  Why do the repugnant ones hate our planet so much they'd pollute it with impunity?  Only piggies trash their only nest.

"Or is that a tingle feeling running down by leg?"
The Last Living Democrat

Hey LLD - Your Depends OverFloweth!  Now go change your Depends and you won't feel that Tinkle running down your leg anymore.

Happy Earth Day!

A PERFECT description of the Bush Administration

'...he process was "a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm," a former C.I.A. official said."...'

One part ignorance, one part arrogance, one part partisan extremism, one part incompetence, three parts stupidity.....

VOILA !! The Bush Administration




From Washington monthly:

'...The NYT has a damning piece about the decision to use torture:

   "In a series of high-level meetings in 2002, without a single dissent from cabinet members or lawmakers, the United States for the first time officially embraced the brutal methods of interrogation it had always condemned.

   This extraordinary consensus was possible, an examination by The New York Times shows, largely because no one involved -- not the top two C.I.A. officials who were pushing the program, not the senior aides to President George W. Bush, not the leaders of the Senate and House Intelligence Committees -- investigated the gruesome origins of the techniques they were approving with little debate.

   According to several former top officials involved in the discussions seven years ago, they did not know that the military training program, called SERE, for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, had been created decades earlier to give American pilots and soldiers a sample of the torture methods used by Communists in the Korean War, methods that had wrung false confessions from Americans.

   Even George J. Tenet, the C.I.A. director who insisted that the agency had thoroughly researched its proposal and pressed it on other officials, did not examine the history of the most shocking method, the near-drowning technique known as waterboarding.

   The top officials he briefed did not learn that waterboarding had been prosecuted by the United States in war-crimes trials after World War II and was a well-documented favorite of despotic governments since the Spanish Inquisition; one waterboard used under Pol Pot was even on display at the genocide museum in Cambodia.

   They did not know that some veteran trainers from the SERE program itself had warned in internal memorandums that, morality aside, the methods were ineffective. Nor were most of the officials aware that the former military psychologist who played a central role in persuading C.I.A. officials to use the harsh methods had never conducted a real interrogation, or that the Justice Department lawyer most responsible for declaring the methods legal had idiosyncratic ideas that even the Bush Justice Department would later renounce.

   The process was "a perfect storm of ignorance and enthusiasm," a former C.I.A. official said."...'


'...Even George J. Tenet, the C.I.A. director who insisted that the agency had thoroughly researched its proposal....'

Tenet and Goss WHAT A TEAM !!

Terrorism is GOOD !!

Why did President Obama change his mind regarding the prosecution of those involved with torture?  The answer says a lot about our President.

1) He listened.  He listened to Keith Olbermann..

Ron Indiana

Many attack the conservative talking heads here. Why do  you feel Keith Olbermann is a  better source of information to be a parrot or zombie as some use for?

What's the latest on the pirate prisoner?

Are others lining up to be pirates for the free trip to the US?

Seems a better life here than Somolia at first glance.

People commenting on the lawyers not being prosecuted, fail to realize that if the lawyers had no valid legal basis to claim this tactic or that was legal, and they simply prepared legal memos claiming the tactics were legal to give the CIA cover, that is illegal. Joe S and others keep arguing how horrible this would be if lawyer giving an opinion were subject to criminal prosecution. This is not a lawyer writting an opinion on whether section 8 of some local land use code is preempted by federal law, and therefore the highway can be built. These would be lawyers who produced legal documents claiming actions were legal. The action wasn't building a highway, where the city had the opportunity to go into court and allow a Judge to decide the issue, the lawyers by there memo were acting both as lawyer for the CIS, and Judge, and the action wasn't merely a property ruight, but the right not to be tortured! If the attorney's had a legitimate basis for their opinions, and if the evidence doesn't show (or tend to show) that the came upi with there conclusions merely to give the CIA cover, then they have nothing to worry about.

I'm a lawyer, as an attorney at the Iran contra hearings said "I'm not just a potted plant" Lawyers have a duty to uphold the constitution every bit as much as the President.

The White House wanted the cover, and if the lawyers followed their oath, they would not have been provided cover.  

>>>Why did President Obama change his mind regarding the prosecution of those involved with torture?  The answer says a lot about our President.

1) He listened.  He listened to Keith Olbermann, Jonathan Turley, and the millions of people who supported him.  CHUCK TODD missed the point, saying it was simply a left-wing pushback.  The majority of Americans believe that those who break the law are criminals and criminals should be prosecuted.  
Ron Indiana (Sent Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:29 AM)
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And we didn't have to launch some insipid FOX News promoted "teabagging" protest either.  Take note, righties.  This is what a REAL "GRASSROOTS" movement can accomplish.

http://jawillie.blog.com

Obama’s position here was a reversal from what we heard Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel say over the weekend.
you republican can thank chenney for that!!!
he open his big mouth, talking shit about the president saying he has made us less safe.  
yeaterday i left a post that did not make it,

In chicago over a 20 year period of time we had a Lt John Burge, he was area 2 chief of detectives, he did some of the same things that the CIA did to get confessions out of INNOCENT men. this did not make the streets of chicago any safer than what the CIA did, and american was not safer, the former governer Ryan had to commute all death row sentences to life in prision becasue of what this man did. 20 to 30 men have been set free from death row because of false confession that were obtained becasue of these tactics,and i can't count how many were set free after spending 25 years in jail because this LT John burge beat the hell out of innocent men to get them to confess.
today this LT is retired but was charges with civil right violations, the city of chicago has paid out hundreds of millions of dollars to these men who were beated in to confess to crimes they did not committ!!!

now my question is this,
how many innocent people who were interrogated by waterboarding, sleep depervation, beatings, if this is happen to the common man i know i would confess to what ever they said i did to get them to stop.

at first i wanted the president to let this just go, but after chenney shit talking session on the cable news net works, i want the attorney general to go after these people and send the all to jail, but first lets do the same things to them that they did to there some times innocent people whos only crime was being a muslim or Iraqie. lets let the see how it feels.
don't leave any funny post about the crime in chicago because in 2 cases, there were men who ever excuted for a crime they did not committe but the confessed because LT john Burge and his guys beat the hell out of then and would not let them have access to a lawyer.

I wonder if Iowa Republican Senator Chuck Grassley has a warm fuzzy feeling this morning. Last month he said he'd feel better if some of the financial executives committed suicide. Now that a 41 year old man has done just that, do you feel better Chuckles? Knowing Senator Grassley sadly he probably does!

You bad old Republicans, only the Dems follow the rule of law and our hallowed Constitution!

I am absolutely certain that FDR and Truman NEVER allowed any German or Japanese combatants to be tortured during WWII (although I guess it was OK for FDR to suspend the rights of Japanese-Americans and lock them up without cause. Where are FDR’s legal memos on that Obama?)

And I am as sure as sure can be that JFK and LBJ and McNamara under no circumstance WHATSOEVER allowed any NVA or Cambodians to be tortured or held without charge.

The "Blame America First" left wingers in this country are all self-loathing Americans who want to play Emily Post to our enemies. Let's send ACLU lawyers down to Gitmo at taxpayer expense so they can sue the US Government, while you are at it, send some tailors from Hart Schaffner and Marx to have detainees fitted with new suits for their court appearance. I think Hart Schaffner Marx is Obamas favorite suit brand. It is probably the Marx part that clinched it.

Liberalism contains the seeds of its own destruction. The Obama administration and the rest of the pseudo-intellectual leftist ilk who are now in charge want to use the American legal system and freedoms of this nation to aid and abet the very people who hate it and want to destroy it.

Larry Moe and Curley,here is a little info that must have slipped thru the cracks of top notch reporters.It is not the presidents job to bring war criminals to justice,it is Eric Holders job,he does not need the prez's approval.He is sworn to up hold the law,period.But since you pushed the door open lets look inside.Obama has restrained from bring these war criminals to justice but with the recent rants and lies that Cheney is spewing,trying to save his a55 from prison,see he is the mind behind this hole mess,he wants to fight,he'll get one,he wants to be a distraction,he wants to re-write his own history.And as far as there being more memos to support his case there  where hundreds of tapes and memos from,our Government checked them out,Millions of dollars spent and there findings,Non of the Tapes or memos had any creditable information ,they found no information and concluded that most, if not all the info was use less,and did nothing to keep us safer.Maytbe if the CIA and the WH had not distroyed the tapes,we would have something to discuss.I wonder if you get better information after the first boarding, or do you get better intel after say Fifty,Seventy Fifth,a Hundredth,time?

>>>Indeed, plenty of conservatives see 2010 as a good time to try and purge the party of its moderates or non-conventional conservatives like Specter and McCain.
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The GOP cannibalism continues.  This party doesn't even know enough to act in its OWN best interest, let alone the country's.

http://jawillie.blog.com

Kind of funny that now Specter and McCain face challenges from the lunatic fringe of their shrinking party.  Some creepy minuteman racist is going to try to give McNasty a run for his money in the primary.  Kind of tough to admit I hope McNasty wins over his racist challenger.  These racists give our historic patriotic Minutemen a bad name by wrapping themselves in our flag to hide their despicable racism.

If torture provided valuable info then maybe it ought to be declassified so we the people can judge if that info was significant or not.  We never saw them get bin Laden did we so it must not have been that significant.  We never saw any credible Al Qaeda plot foiled, just some homegrown wannabees who were clueless beyond belief.

Hey Ed Schultz is really doing a great job with his new show as he takes on the repugnant ones and teaches them a lesson.  I love his Psycho Talk segment that points out the idiocy of the psycho babblers like Bachmann Moron Overdrive.  David Shuster is doing a great job subbing for Keith on Countdown.  Rachel is doing a great job exposing the lies of the irrelevant elephants.  Too bad chris is lagging behind his colleagues in playing hardball with the sore loser party.

Support Ed Schultz!

I feel positive that the right choices will be made. I have trust and faith in our President. While I feel blogging on these posts is productive to a certain extent, we have no idea what's going on and how to solve problems...only what the media tells us.  I have great admiration and respect for many hosts and commentators on MSNBC - by far the best in the industry.  I agree Jonathan Turley is a joy to listen to - smart, direct, and I can understand what he's saying! But - bottom line is - we just gotta hang on, hard as it is (I am struggling mightily financially right now, too) and rev up those creative juices.  Is this a great country or what?!

When this bum gets voted out in 4 years, it(the door) will be left open to prosecute his administration.He should remember that.The day will come and I can't wait................

Committees do NOTHING but issue big reports that lead to zero!

The 9/11 Commission did NOTHING!  Bush and Cheney supposedly testified together, behind closed doors, not under oath, and without a transcript! WTF...NOTHING!

The separation of Powers was non-existent.  There was only one power!  Cheney/Bush!  Co-conspirators should be prosecuted...and sent to prison sooner rather than later and we can then move forward.

Repukes only want to "throw the rock and then try to hide their hands"!  Be PROUD Repukes, have the courage of your convictions!

This torture episode has been ugly and damaging, but I don't think any prosecutions aren't going to make things better.

I know there's a strong desire for revenge against those who - and the words are still bizarre to type - authorized American interrogators to torture suspects. I think its best if we just put all that revenge-motive behind us.

I'm not saying anyone is above the law, but our sense of justice has always considered the circumstances of the crime, even if only through jury nullification as a last resort. I think we all can agree that those who authorized the tortue and those who carried it out thought they were doing what was best for the security of the nation.

Is it embarrasing that our leaders reacted with such cowardice against a bunch of criminals hiding out in caves half a world away? Absolutely. But out of fear and a forgotten sense of the courage it takes to be American, they did what they wrongly thought was best for the country.

Maybe we should chalk this one up to a 'those who never watched a 24 episode cast the first stone' dismissal of legalistic process, and just put the whole thing behind us.

I don't think the President did not want to investigate, that is up to the Department of Justice. But I do think President Obama is reluctant to open this can of worms. What will it prove? Will it split the country more? Will the American people find out anything we don't already know? With so much that has to be done in this country, is it wise to spend time on this? I am torn myself. I remember how preoccupied we were during the Clinton impeachment. What will happen with a torture investigation and/or trial? It really puts Obama in a difficult position. He is a Constitutional lawyer and understands that the DOJ needs to work independently of the Executive Branch. He knows that we need to follow our Constitution. And we need to show the world that we are a nation of morals and law.

But I wouldn't want to be in his shoes right now. He is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Pat ~ A very thoughtful post.  Just one additional idea to kick around.  I'm still bothered by the nagging suspicion that the reason we don't go after these folks, either for torture or illegal surveillance, is more the consequence of hard, cold political reality than any moral judgment.  I fear that sooner or later this continuing this quest will lead us back in directions that the Obama administration just does not want to go -- like to Congress, for instance.  This new Jane Harmon revelation is exactly what I've been worrying about, and it may be only the tip of the iceberg.  Maybe Bush, Cheney, and Gonzales would sink, but who else will they take down with them?  This isn't to say that if Congress WAS involved in this that they shouldn't go down, but if they do, then Obama's entire agenda is likely to sink with them.  If I were he, I would definitely be worried about that.  His momentum is fragile enough to begin with.  

Anyway, just my thoughts.  Great post.

I'd like to see the 'bad guys' uncovered in all this, but once that is accomplished, I would say skip prosecuting them.  We don't need to keep this wound open.  
I would say, though, that as a condition of charges not being persued, the Repubs and the Right in general has to agree to drop all the nonsense about Socialists, birth certificates, teleprompters and what Gays do in their own homes.  In other words- sit down, and shut the hell up (especially you, Dick).

It is what it is. Torture is torture. This is non negotable. The President, V.P. or the Atty. Gen. can,not say "It is O.K. to break the law" But they did. We now have American soldiers in jail for torturing prisoners at Abu Grabe. We restore our lost integrety by following our own Rule of Law. Regardless who gets thrown under the bus.

First Read's "Who's nailed?"  Without any doubt whatsoever, it is the present and future safety of the American Public that has been nailed to the cross and soon to be crucified courtesy of the terrorist sympathizers in the Obama camp. Plan now to crucify Obama for all his anti-American actions. What goes around, comes around.  The games have begun.

Haven't you guys finished you coffee yet?  Where are the posts?

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