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Mark Murray, NBC Deputy Political Director

Domenico Montanaro, NBC News Political Reporter



Republicans warn Holder on torture

Posted: Thursday, May 07, 2009 12:16 PM by Domenico Montanaro
Filed Under: ,

From NBC's Pete Williams

At a hearing today with Attorney General Eric Holder, Republican members of a Senate Appropriations subcommittee suggested that any potential criminal investigation into the CIA's harsh interrogation methods might not easily be contained.

Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another. 

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration? 
Yes, Holder said. 

"How many did you approve?" they asked. 
Holder said he'd check the record.

The clear suggestion was, if any criminal investigation is opened, Republicans would push to get it expanded beyond events during the Bush administration. Alexander, for example, asked several times whether members of Congress, who were told about the interrogation methods, should also be investigated.

As for a potential investigation of the lawyers who wrote the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel opinions approving harsh interrogation methods, Holder said -- as he has several times now -- that he remains skeptical. 

"We're not trying to do anything that would be perceived as partisan,” he said. “We want to move forward to the extent we can."

Today's hearing also provided another avenue for members of Congress to tell the Obama administration they're very worried about bringing Guantanamo Bay detainees into the U.S., where they might be released. Holder said no one who was dangerous or a threat to the community would be released anywhere in the world. 

[EDITOR'S NOTE: An earlier version of this post incorrectly identified the committee Holder testified before as Judiciary. This version corrects that, pointing out that it was an Appropriations subcommittee.]

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While Obama administration continues it's navel gazing, the terrorists are laughing their butts off at the US.
"Torture"? Most of the so called "torture" Obama and Holder are talking about is less about torture, and more what would be considered mild college hazing during pledge week. Does Obama realize how much of a wuss he looks like in the eyes of the world? Listen to Chavez and Noriega's speeches to see how much they respect the US and Obama.
Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another.  

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration?  
Yes, Holder said.  

"How many did you approve?" they asked.  
Holder said he'd check the record.

------------------

Holder is building quite the trap. To bad he's the one falling into it. At least it will fun watching Holder interrogate himself.
Holder and the Democrats want the "Whole truth and nothing but the truth" only if it involves Republicans. Anything else then that, and Holder and company will need to "check the record".

Don't worry Eric, someone already has . . .
About time you girls grew a pair. Now clean your ranks of anyone who might go down, or get in the way of the "financial espionage trials" that will happen once these criminals are out of power. We're not asking much :-)
America loves and approves of torture. We should start using it on all suspects, especially the ones on wall street who must have caused the economic terrorism we are all experiencing right now.
"We're not trying to do anything that would be perceived as partisan."

Now that is one dumb statement.  Does Holder think any Republican will be on board to support an investigation into torture, wire-tapping, rendition?

It will be up to Congress to investigate.  As yet, the Obama administration does not want to go there.

Sometimes politics is sooo frustrating.
I think that they call this Extortion in legal speak and it is ILLEGAL. Congress makes me sick...
With this one the Republicans are right. The investigations should lead to where they lead. It will be unpleasant but so is the thought of all the people tortured under harsh interrigations.
Good to see the Good ol boy network still humming,Southern pink necks defending another southern pink neck.It's amazing watching these BBB(Bible belt bozos)pressing Holder.Neckers you want to drag down anyone you can trying to justify your leaders Bush and Shooter Cheney crimes.While all the spew ya'll spew everyday,you could never get that much Sh!T back into the horse.But we expect nothing short of complete lies and distorted truths.Glad you didn't disappoint us.
Looks like the big story is being missed today. Obama spending $3.4 trillion dollars on this years budget. Talk about red ink. And no more whining from the liberals now either about what Bush spent. Obama has Bush beat hands down.
Next time the GOP is going to get ACORN to help them round up every illegal alien, ex-con, wino and junkie on every park bench and register them as Republicans. Then the GOP will pay a patent licensing fee to the Chicago Democratic Organization to use their proprietary ballot stuffing technology to rig the next election. It has worked for over 75 years in Chicago and Crook County. Just ask Daley, Stroger, Blago, Obama and Rahm!
Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another.  

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration?  
Yes, Holder said.  

So the two thugs want to use the bully pulpit? Prosecution is in order for the Bush administration. We aren't talking about the Clinton years, we are talking about what has recently transpried, what has gotten this nation in the  shape it's in now.

Holder had better not allow two under cover cowardly "klan member" to bully the DOJ. We are watching and "we" mean business".
Yes Mr. Holder, please, do check the record. Stop by and catch up with us when you have that information. Be sure to take your time, make sure it's right. Many thanks.
Wasn't it Holder himself that stated in a 2002 CNN interview that he believed the enhanced interrogation techniques were necessary?
"Torture"? Most of the so called "torture" Obama and Holder are talking about is less about torture, and more what would be considered mild college hazing during pledge week. Does Obama realize how much of a wuss he looks like in the eyes of the world? Listen to Chavez and Noriega's speeches to see how much they respect the US and Obama.
--------------------------------------------------
I was in a fraternity.  The things people do to pledges and the things pledges take is called Hazing.  Hazing, in NY at least, is a class A felony.  Just because it is done in college, doesn't mean it is legal or not serious.  Kids die from being pledged, and yes, many of the techniques used, on me at least, would be likely be deemed a form of torture, i.e., sleep deprivation. My fraternity didn't hit us, or make us drink, or anything extremely stupid, and I'd say we still used torture methods.  Stop being so naive.  
Are they talking about rendition or torture?  I think it's pretty obvious there is a huge difference in the two things.
People who supports torture in any form are not true Christians. But after all, it was Christianity that tortured 10 million people during the Middle Ages...and it is some Christians who believe they should carry weapons for self-defense: something Jesus never did, not even in the Cross.
Hypocrisy reigns in this country.
Clearly the republicans are trying to hold the previous administration above the law. Two wrongs don't make it a right! If there was torture in the Clinton administration,then go after them as well. However it sounds like the Clinton administration just participated in rendition and not torture from their questioning. Let's investigate all. Typical republican childish behavior though. " But Mommy, Johnny did it too" excuse does not fly with mom, nor should it fly with the American people or to the world bound by treaties of the Geneva Convention. You participated in breaking the law, pay the price.
If an investigation is opened and followed, then it might lead to some in both parties being aware of the policy. That is fair. But to threaten to go back to the Clinton era is just stupid.

All of this is why we need the truth out there. Tell the American people what happened and then move on. With everything needed to do in this country, we don't need Congress getting mired in this.

I am a liberal and a progressive, but enough about this torture investigation. We know the Bush administration tortured. Now move on......
Holder had better not allow two under cover cowardly "klan member" to bully the DOJ. We are watching and "we" mean business".
Anita, Birmingham, Alabama (Sent Thursday, May 07, 2009 12:42 PM)

Lady, What are you talking about. These are members of Congress. They ask whatever they want from both sides. Investigations open up all kinds of sh**. It will go back to Clinton and probably before because ALL POLITICIANS DO WHAT POLITICIANS DO.....anything to stay in power. The republicans do not have a monopoly on less than honorable behavior. If you think that, you are naive. Talking about KKK....WTF is BYRD??????Grand Wizard....you shouldnt throw stones in glass houses.
"Torture"? Most of the so called "torture" Obama and Holder are talking about is less about torture, and more what would be considered mild college hazing during pledge week. Does Obama realize how much of a wuss he looks like in the eyes of the world? Listen to Chavez and Noriega's speeches to see how much they respect the US and Obama.

Hey Cam,
You really are the problem with thoughts like this. Did you ever hear of the Geneva Conventions which we wrote?? Maybe you should move to Venezeula and sit in one of Chavez's prisons and he can haze you. Maybe you would like our troops to suffer the same fate when they are captured. What rock do people like you crawl out from out of???

This isn't a matter of what President Obama looks like to the world, it is about justice for the United States Citizens. No faternity promises, secrete society memberships or fear political domino's being toppled.

I don't give a tinkers damn about what happened during the Clinton administration. When the GOP had the opportunity to put the screws to the Democrats, they did it. We aren't seeking revenge, we are seeking justice. We voted for change and change is what we expect to get, starting with the Department of Justice.

Attorney General Holder, do your job and don't allow some old washed up klan member to appempt to bully "our", the peoples Department of Justice.
So the party of "no" says "yes" to torture? Interesting. Why must they act like bullies or spoiled children in discussing this serious issue with Holder? When a child lies and uses the excuse "Well Jimmy lied too" does that make it any better? I think it's fair to examine ANY past practices as long as we all agree in the end that the U.S.-whether led by a Democrat or Republican-must never again dismiss our moral grounding through a torture program and must re-gain it's reputation for following the rule of law in all circumstances.
It does not matter what color one's neck is, a crime is still a crime. Let us remember that the GOPers spent two years distracting President Clinton and the DEMs with the Lewinsky affair and subsecuent impeachment. Ever wonder what may have happended or not had they been more intent of being a loyal opposition instead of seeking to derail the President?

Clearly, AG Holder is treading carefully so as to appear above political issues. After all, his job is enforcing the law is it not?

On Countdown last eve, Keith pointed out that Darth Cheney's continued assault on the Obama admin is clearly self serving. The "little guys" he is seeking to defend includ, Gonzalez, Addington, and himself. Darth was the man behind the curtain on this matter and everyone with 1/2 a brain knows it.

At least Dubya has the good sense to keep his mouth shut. That combined with Cheney's assaults point the finger at the real bad guy here.

Whether his motives were/are to protect himself or the country is beside the point. A judge can use motive in considering an appropriate sentence, but the law is the law. We are signatories to 2 international treaties banning torture.

If the AG and or congress do not do their job, the Spanish Judge will. He has full jurisdiction over the torture of Spanish citizens.

What would be better, a truth commission with acknowledgement of the wrong doing and a slap on the wrist for the perpetrators including Darth, or all the torture boys tried in the Hague for their crimes? Just askin...  
Prosecution is in order for the Bush administration. We aren't talking about the Clinton years, we are talking about what has recently transpried, what has gotten this nation in the  shape it's in now.
-----------------------------------------------------
Anita, you're missing the point.   Why is prosecution in order for the Bush administration but not the Clinton administration if they agreed to equally harsh tactics?  
I think it's a Bible verse


'Know the Truth
and the Truth shall set you free'

YES !!
Let's look into torture and Rendition
Let the chips fall where they may

Somebody might just have to 'walk the plank' for
WAR CRIMES
There should be NO IMMUNITY for the Bush Administration
Cam Lester, Sarasota FL: '...Torture"? Most of the so called "torture" Obama and Holder are talking about is less about torture, and more what would be considered mild college hazing during pledge week...'

If THAT'S THE CASE, let the Bush Administration minions come and testify about it

If the DID NOTHING WRONG, LET THEM TESTIFY

WHAT ARE YOU AFRAID OF ??




NO IMMUNITY FOR WAR CRIMINALS !!
There are a lot of punks on this blog.  Let me explain to you exactly what that is.  Never say something in print about someone you wouldn't be willing to say to their face if the two of you were the only survivors on an island!  Each of you know who U are.  I doubt that any one of U ever did time in the military or ever won a fair fist.  Intellectually and physically U are lightweights, BUT I guess U already knew that, huh!  
Ed, FT, TX--excellent post and most of what inthemiddle,tx goes as well with the exception of the DOJ being bullied. DOJ needs to operate as intended and do its job period.  No matter where things take it.  NO ONE is above the law.
They should absolutely appoint a special prosecutor to investigate ALL of it!!!  Rendition, torture, everything!!  Didn't they take an oath to uphold the Constitution?  Well, let's find out if the Constitution was upheld.  Holder should call their bluff.  And if he did something wrong, he should answer for it also.  Come on people.  An investigation is not a conviction. If they did nothing wrong, what is everyone so afraid of?  My gosh, they investigated Clinton's sexual activities, but they won't investigate torture?  There really is something wrong with this whole thing.  I actually hope Europe does something - I don't think America will.
Good.  The Republicans are engaging in their usual attempts at blackmail to try to hide their crimes.  The funny thing is that we who want these crimes investigated do not care if other Party politicians were involved.  Torture is a crime and anyone who was involved needs to be prosecuted for their crimes.
BRING IT ON!
Ok, so let's expand investigations back even FURTHER: if Presidents Bush 41, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, etc. did any of this, lets put them ALL in jail!  Dig up the dead ones and put 'em in the slammer!  George Washington too!  Yeehaw!  (I'm kidding)
For heaven's sake, get off the high horse.  "Torture" includes sleep deprivation?  Every kid ever born will be up on charges.  I, personally, have been awakened at two a.m. to answer the question "what time is it'?  Ditto for loud, obnoxious music, (any of your kids into heavy metal?  It'll make you suicidal-plus, the bass is so strong my son once knocked a picture off the wall-from his room two floors up).  Appearing in strange clothing?  Ever try to take a 13year old to visit your very stuffy, old maid aunt?  That'l make you talk.  Being kept in uncomfortable positions for hours?  Give birth sometime.

I guess the jury is out on waterboarding, but it seems that our Navy Seals are subjected to it during training, so I guess our enemies use it on our personnel.  

People need to get real.  The taliban and alqueda are closing in on Pakistan's nuclear weapons, the economy is the worst I've ever seen, and you people are sidetracked by what should be a non-issue.
I'd love to see an thorough investigation of the sleezy Richard Shelby of Al.  For the record, extreme sleep deprivation is associated with impaired cognitive, metabolic and cardiac function which can result in death.  I assume everyone slept through Social Science 101 or they would know this.

At least one of the detainees was rushed to the hospital after his heart rate dropped to 41.  The sustained cardiac damage of a least one of the detainees means he will not be standing trial.  Extreme sleep deprivation results in hallucination and delusional thinking that hardly renders useful information.

Either we are a nation of laws and honor the treaties we sign with our allies or we don't.  
Senators that don't give a damn about the rule of law.  I fear the worst for our democracy.
Looks like the big story is being missed today. Obama spending $3.4 trillion dollars on this years budget. Talk about red ink. And no more whining from the liberals now either about what Bush spent. Obama has Bush beat hands down.
Redd Inkk (Sent Thursday, May 07, 2009 12:39 PM)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
And, again, what about the $$$ Bil. never included in the Bush budget for the wars ???
Economic facts, another things consertives don't like>
"Torture"? Most of the so called "torture" Obama and Holder are talking about is less about torture, and more what would be considered mild college hazing during pledge week. Does Obama realize how much of a wuss he looks like in the eyes of the world? Listen to Chavez and Noriega's speeches to see how much they respect the US and Obama.
Cam Lester, Sarasota FL (Sent Thursday, May 07, 2009 12:27 PM)

-------------------------------------

While Chavez has been quite vocal, has anyone heard any of Noriega's speeches lately?

The answer is "no", and do you want to know why?

BECAUSE HE'S IN PRISON, YA DUMBASS!!!!!!!!

Between that and thinking that CIA torture is just a part of one big kegger, I think it's time to sit down and let the grown-ups continue the discussion.
Sir I'm sorry but you might as well stayed away if you are being told what to do by the party who is the most guilty, see I saw you and your family once in the National Airport I was heading to Alanta in 96 for the Big Conference you might have been retiring then but I look at you with total respect like I would listen to you if you were leading now please don't let these bullies do this to you the more the talk the guiltier the sound, they took us to war with our even the approval of NATO broke the GENVIA rules and slaughtered many for a lie so your real job is to hold those in contempt or prosecute those folks so the World Our NAtion and yourself will understand Enough is Enough and we won't see this type of machismo again in the Government but see when that lady who kept getting locked up and was calling out Mrs. Pelosi she went to jail for going against the war and to hear some make a suggestion to you on anything I'm sorry sound's like a threat.don't back off for now Iwant to know so I can tell the History like I saw it.
So the two thugs want to use the bully pulpit? Prosecution is in order for the Bush administration. We aren't talking about the Clinton years, we are talking about what has recently transpried, what has gotten this nation in the  shape it's in now.

Holder had better not allow two under cover cowardly "klan member" to bully the DOJ. We are watching and "we" mean business".
-----------------------------------------------------

Anita,

Before I begin, let me just say that i love your posts, your attidude, and you're go get'em spirit.

But, What you're saying above, to paraphrase; we are only trying to go after bush, 'cause he's the one 'we' don't like is dead wrong.

This is exactly the mentality we rail against as Cons constantly attack the Deficit. (Even though bush did the same.)

If we are truly going to bring tourture to the light of day, we must be willing to look into the deep shadows of the past as well.

Bush + rendition = Bad
Clinton + rendition = equally bad.

We must uphold our principals.

Having said that, I wish this whole issue would just go away. There is too much going on right now to allow this divisive issue to further divide us.

affordable Health care is at the tippity top of my national priority list...

What's on yours?  
While Obama administration continues it's navel gazing, the terrorists are laughing their butts off at the US.
Ben Fields (Sent Thursday, May 07, 2009 12:23 PM)

Do the terrorists have CSPAN??
Doesn't Alexander and Shelby's warning constitute blackmail, extortion or coercion? It seems very plain. The Bush/Cheney Administration and its supporters will do anything to throw the terrible scent of deceit and lies off their trail.
I will be surprised if so called "torture trials" are ever held. Right now Obama, Pelosi,etc are simply strutting for their uber lefty supporters. The torture thing has outlived its original purpose as a truncheon to pummel Bush and other republicans.Now when Holder spins the needle on his "torture" meter it frequently lands on democrat names including his own! Like the gang that couldn't shoot straight the dems are actually starting to shoot at each other. I look for this whole thing to sputter out regardless of the foot stomping and food tossing tantrums of the lefties. As for Guantanamo it is absolutely rich to see Obama and the Dems realizing that being in power means having responsibility for our safety. It was one thing to "demand the closure of this blight on americas reputation" and quite another to actually do it. Europe has basically told Obama to cram the Gitmo prisoners...and have refused to take them. Europeans logically argue that if these prisoners are so harmless why doesn't Obama just release them in america? If our country wasn't at risk all this political carnival would be entertaining but these events simply emphasize that when we put a bunch of children in charge of our government we get immature behavior in return.
I guess the jury is out on waterboarding, but it seems that our Navy Seals are subjected to it during training, so I guess our enemies use it on our personnel.

no joe, no bo, nj (Sent Thursday, May 07, 2009 1:29 PM)

Does that make it ok?  By that logic, why aren't we beheading suspects as well?
Lamar Alexander was once a great GOV for TN.  Now he like the rest of the Republicans have lost their morals.   It is now the IM-moral majority.
It is about a systemic torture program, not about redention.   It is like saying the peewies t-ball versus steriod major league baseball.  And add 100's on 100's of cases.

BTW... over 400 armed service people have been convicted of abuse.

It is not even close.  It is cowardice in the extreme from most of the republicans and a very few dem's.

Ted,
The very idea of Richard Shelby having the audacity to bully the AG just set's my chain to rattling. I am a product of the Civil Rights Era. I guess I've seen too much and know too much. You are right of course.

What I really wanted to say was, it doesn't matter which administration did what or when. We must have justice.

Ted I am a patient rights advocate, I have 20 years experience in Administrative Medical Services. I research for physicians and credential them. If anyone knows how inportant it is for health care reform to pass it's me.
Once again clueless Obama shot his mouth off during the campaign with no clear understanding of how to proceed.  His clueless groupies then voted him in.

the bush administration decieved,and if they authorized tortured and if it is considered a war crimes,they should be brought up on charges. republicans you are not above the law. and if around the world  we are serious about not crossing those lines I think we gain respect for far too long  the U.S. has been looked at as a bully. we have to change our image in the world because President Obama gets it when most don't. Even as great as our nation is, to battle and defeat terrorism you need many unwavering allies this is a task that The U.S. can not do by itself.        
The smoke and mirrors along with a threat ploy.  Rendition was not new to the Clinton era either so this could well go back to Reagan and before.  Don't forget, al-Qaeda first struck in the early years of the Clinton administration so rendition was used for possible terrorist suspects.  I'm no expert and am not positive but it's my understanding that what the Bush administration used was referred to as extraordinary rendition because it involved enhanced interrogation techniques.

Investigate everything but investigate.  Americans deserve to know what their leaders were doing.  I  find it curious that so many Bush administration leaders are desparately trying to defend their tactics and every attempt unravels the web of decent even more.  

I still believe that Pres Obama is releasing information to let Americans absorb the ugliness of what happened; we have to be prepared for this because I believe it will be awful when we know.  If Americans aren't behind an investigation (which the polls currently say the majority isn't), it will be viewed as a political witch hunt just like what happened to Clinton.  I think Obama is doing the right thing by letting Congress and DOJ do their reports, then make a decision.  He can't say Bush officials are guilty because that would be prejudicial.


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